This may be too obscure, but there was a really good all-female band from Sacramento in the late '60s., and they deserve some kinda documentary treatment. They're best known by the name She, and there's a compilation CD of their demo material called She Wants a Piece of You. Really compelling lead singer, Nancy Ross. They broke up circa 1970 after recording one single, because they hated the meddling they had to put up with from label people. She probably woulda been a much better-known act if they had played outside Northern Cali, but that didn't happen. Buncha tunes of theirs on RUclips, check 'em out.
It's revealed that Ozzy weren't much better than Sharon, so she can't get all the blame as she always did. Ozzy didn't like to pay band members either for example and Ozzy claimed to make songs Jake E. Lee did and Bob Daisley made... Ozzy got their names removed on the re-releases, so it says Ozzy were the composer instead. Everyone know that's a lie.
Yeah, I laugh how polished she portrays herself now. She was one shady business women and would get down in the gutter and screw people and lie quite often.
Dude, you should look into doing voice work if you haven't already. You do amazing narration and have the timbre to do it professionally outside of your own videos.
I wondered why Vixen didn't get a second mainstream hit. They weren't as edgy as L7 or loose like The Runaways but Vixen was a pretty talented all-female rock band.
It’s fucked up but label heads didn’t like all female bands that were about the music. They wanted a pony show … Fanny had some killer songs but never broke huge because they didn’t play into a image or have a stupid stage act
the should have let holly night wright the songs they would have had a top 10 album and head lined a world tour. Also once jan was gone they have never been able to bring that sound back, and wright great songs, No dis to brit shes great.
Are we really trying to put vixen in the same league as L7 and The Runaways??? Please, two different sounds and guitarists like Jett and Sparks would wipe the bathroom wall with the women of Vixen....
My first "fight" with my bestie to this day was over her making fun of Vixen. When I wanted to play Edge of a Broken Heart! I was so upset that I broke the tape!! 😢😢😢😢😅😅😅. We were 12! It was 1989.
Thank you for this necessary tribute. Vixen was, and still are fully qualified musicians. Their place in history must be recognized by this new generation.
I think I may have auditioned for this band, LOL! I was a female musician in the '70's and there was soooo much bullshit, especially from male musicians. Nobody took us seriously. I'm still a musician fifty years later. I don't regret anything.
I played in a band Rok Kandi...NE Iowa in the early 80's. We were playing at Lakeside Ballroom Guttenberg IA. Vixen was coming through the area during a big snow storm. I am not entirely sure how it was set up. Either they were going to perform there, and we opened...or they contacted the ballroom possibly looking for cover from the storm. Do not know. We ended up opening up for them. Many moons ago, but remember it quiet well. Rockin ballroom right on the mississippi river.
There are songs that are ballads that are upbeat. A notable example from recent years is "Dancing On My Own" by Robyn. Another example would be "Smalltown Boy" by Bronski Beat. That is an emotional song even though the production is fast tempoed. The tempo of the song doesn't matter if you can still convey an emotional message, which is what ballads are supposed to do.
VIXEN had potential. I had their first LP, But a lot of their songs were like any other metal band at the time. They didn't stand out as much as l hoped they would. Precious Metal and Phantom Blue, 2 other all-female bands made it to at least 2 LPs in their lineup. Its a Shame. . . Too many Chefs spoiled the broth, and not enough support from recording companies
I love your videos but you always seem to cut them too short. I would have loved to see more about what happened after the classic line up broke up the first time.. At least do a follow up video
Vixen opened for Eddie Money at the Masonic Auditorium, in Detroit 1988. They were amazing, the songs and energy had the place all-out rockin'. Great band!!!
They seem to be out and about on the touring circuit today and have kind of a cool older rocker vibe to them. Like not embarrassing or having let themselves go …. Good for them ! I loved the first album good memories !
I had seen Vixen 2x in their hey day. They were good but they followed the same formula as other Hair bands with forced ballads and TV and Radio friendly Top 40 Rock songs as priority. They got screwed but they also followed the path leading them there.
I met Jan K. many moons ago when she was selling some Kitty Hawk 4x12’s out of her garage in Hollywood and was immediately smitten by her down to earth personality and beauty soul as my bassist and I sat in her garage, just shooting the shit about the music business in general. I was truly heartbroken when I learned of her passing.
In her prime, outside of Ann Wilson, no female vocalist rocker could touch Janet, perfect pitch and tone, master of compression/distortion, that "growl" sound 🔥 🎵🎶
Lorraine Lewis is the "new" lead vocalist. She has been in a band called Femme Fatale. They were pretty damned good. Had a couple of minor hits "Falling in an out of Love," and "Waiting for the Big One." I believe they had been out of Albuquerque and I would sometimes see their videos on Headbanger's Ball.
@@edwardvaca2627 One of the male guitarists in Femme Fatale passed away. Not feeling right replacing him, Lorraine made an all female version of Femme Fatale. Nita Strauss was a guitarist. They were good. Strauss is worth checking out. Has her own stuff (think all musical) and tours with Alice Copper. Last time I looked at Femme Fatale or Vixen videos and read comments, Lorraine was responding to posts. Recommend watching the videos to the songs you mentioned. Lorraine was stunningly beautiful. And she still looks good today.
Seems you rushed through the last 15 years of the band - they released 4 other albums and have been touring pretty consistently. Did you just hit the 15 min mark and say "OK I'm done"?
I've seen them live 2 times in the last 2 years . I also got to meet them when my friends band opened for them . They still put on a great show and are very nice .
1. I've seen them live twice and they really aren't very good. 2. Their hit song was written by someone else. 3. Their gimmick was being an all female band. Reality = You didn't get screwed, you just were not as good as the competition.
If people want to know about some all-female bands, three that immediately come to mind are The Warning (three sisters, usually the guitarist sings, sometimes the drummer sings), BAND-MAID, and Burning Witches.
All good bands. If you want your mind blown by serious powermetal, check out Lovebites from Japan. Any Band Maid link should have Lovebites in the suggestions.
I was actually a big fan of Vixen and saw them when they opened for Ozzy where unfortunately most of the fans booed because I guess they weren't metal enough.
I don't give a sh*t what the male bands and people would say about vixen. This all female band was kicking a$$. Screw what people say, rest in peace Jan. You started this awesome band. All of you were hot looking.
Them being women wasn't a problem for us consumers. The songs, arrangements riffs etc. weren't strong enough material. They actually got a career because of their gender. Males doing their material would've not been noticed.
i will admit as a teenager I was really turned off by what the critic said about the band as well. It seemed really lame to me at the time that the women bands were trying to do what the men do but turn it up to 11 that it seemed ridiculous. They would use every rockstar pose and trope every minute of every song. It felt like they were trying too hard to prove themselves. I'm not saying I was right but I think that was also the feeling of many other people as well. I heard it a lot from others making fun of them and others when they would be on MTV. The one great thing about growing older is that it is never too late to go back and appreciate what was previously dismissed.
Well it seems to be true that all female rock bands proportionally much more songs that have no content, just rock something repeated or are love songs.
Jan Kuehnemund should’ve moved to LA much sooner than waiting till 1980. I don’t need to watch the video.. By the time ‘Vixen’s song video came out MTV in 1987 was too late.
I liked the band from the beginning, the straight sound suited every metalhead. Unfortunately there was a name confusion in Germany, because there Vixen sounds like a word for jerk.
I saw them on the Ozzy/White Lion tour. I felt so bad for them because they had this tiny section of the stage, but they absolutely nailed it. If anyone's seen the video where Mike Tramp trips going up the steps behind the drum kit, that's the show I was at. (Those lights were super bright and blinding btw.)
They were the real deal, no question about that! Kind of a shame that it went the way it did for them what with one thing and another but they have a legacy of two solid albums and, for me, they more than proved themselves as writers as well as musicians with "Rev It Up. A great live band also!
Well you made it to where you forced yourself now to be slave to the RUclips you better get used to it are you going to overdo yourself worrying about the next damn check and you're going to miss all those people on Venice boardwalk now don't get too depressed now you got to work your way through it and it will be avoid and you got to work you might have to physically go down Juventus and just ride around or something or set up a small booth some way to get out amongst the people that's actually a good idea
Back around '89 Vixen came to play at our high school as a result of the kids winning a radio contest. I can only imagine what they had to think coming to our backwater burg to play for a bunch of high schoolers.
Throw your suggestions for future topics here.
This may be too obscure, but there was a really good all-female band from Sacramento in the late '60s., and they deserve some kinda documentary treatment.
They're best known by the name She, and there's a compilation CD of their demo material called She Wants a Piece of You. Really compelling lead singer, Nancy Ross. They broke up circa 1970 after recording one single, because they hated the meddling they had to put up with from label people.
She probably woulda been a much better-known act if they had played outside Northern Cali, but that didn't happen. Buncha tunes of theirs on RUclips, check 'em out.
Have you done a deep dive into the Bands Reunited show? Would be interested in hearing how they came together and stuff.
I'd be interested in hearing about Budgie, Lolita KompleX & BAND-MAID 👍
Paul dianno and blaze bailey - the other iron maiden singers
Wasp
Everybody that ran into anyone related to Sharron Osbourn would get screwed over.
Shady business. Her dad was no better.
It's revealed that Ozzy weren't much better than Sharon, so she can't get all the blame as she always did.
Ozzy didn't like to pay band members either for example and Ozzy claimed to make songs Jake E. Lee did and Bob Daisley made...
Ozzy got their names removed on the re-releases, so it says Ozzy were the composer instead. Everyone know that's a lie.
$haron Osbourne is definitely her dad’s daughter. He’s a pos like her.
Yeah, I laugh how polished she portrays herself now. She was one shady business women and would get down in the gutter and screw people and lie quite often.
@@V3ntilator Sharon did that not ozzy. Either way it doesn’t matter. Ozzy owns his rights he can do what he wants with his music
Dude, you should look into doing voice work if you haven't already. You do amazing narration and have the timbre to do it professionally outside of your own videos.
None of the original members remain
Guys that look like girl's gown ironic
The Bands Reunited episode is a good one too.
I saw Vixen, Winger, and KISS on the Hot In The Shade tour. It was a great show, and all three bands hit on all 8 cylinders.
I never knew Vixen was rotated into that tour! I only knew of Faster Pussycat, Danger Danger, Winger and Slaughter being on various legs of it.
@@zmbdog Back in the day, bands would play venues not on the official schedule if there was on opening so it makes sense
I've had a crush on Roxy for almost 40 years.
You and me both, she's still fine today.
The first Poison cassette I bought, I thought it was a Vixen type band... All girls🤦♂️😂
Might as well have been
Same with Hansen 😅
@@TranceMasterJack 😂🤦♂️
@@michael7054 😂🤦♂️
I mean...
Love Vixen so much, their first two albums are among my favourites to this day.
"Love Made Me" has been one of my favorite songs since it came out and I still play "How Much Love?" sometimes. 😁
I wondered why Vixen didn't get a second mainstream hit.
They weren't as edgy as L7 or loose like The Runaways but Vixen was a pretty talented all-female rock band.
It’s fucked up but label heads didn’t like all female bands that were about the music. They wanted a pony show … Fanny had some killer songs but never broke huge because they didn’t play into a image or have a stupid stage act
@@gunnarmarks5754 male or female they want the pony show that makes money.
@@gunnarmarks5754 What about the Gogos or the Bangles?
the should have let holly night wright the songs they would have had a top 10 album and head lined a world tour. Also once jan was gone they have never been able to bring that sound back, and wright great songs, No dis to brit shes great.
Are we really trying to put vixen in the same league as L7 and The Runaways???
Please, two different sounds and guitarists like Jett and Sparks would wipe the bathroom wall with the women of Vixen....
Still own the debut on cassette.🤘
My first "fight" with my bestie to this day was over her making fun of Vixen. When I wanted to play Edge of a Broken Heart! I was so upset that I broke the tape!! 😢😢😢😢😅😅😅. We were 12! It was 1989.
Dude. There's no way you are called SethPutnam'sGhost.
Still own their 2 first cassettes, and got into Ibanez basses cuz of Share
8:28 I would hardly call "Edge Of Broken Heart" a ballad!
Power ballad maybe
'Be clutch are dame forever' is the best Vixen song.
@@michaelwills1926 Not really, Love is a killer is a power ballad.
I loved Vixen! Too bad Jan passed away. It is just not the same without her. They are still touring but nothing like in the past. 😢
Thank you for this necessary tribute. Vixen was, and still are fully qualified musicians. Their place in history must be recognized by this new generation.
I think I may have auditioned for this band, LOL! I was a female musician in the '70's and there was soooo much bullshit, especially from male musicians. Nobody took us seriously. I'm still a musician fifty years later. I don't regret anything.
I don't think so you think you did
If I am going to join a band it would be
Queensryche
I'm curious. If you were a female musician in the 70's, what are you now?
@@Species5008 A female musician in the '20's.
❤❤ THANKYOU. VIXEN. MUSIK. ✌️. 70s ROCK
Jan was one of the best female guitarist of all time. R.I.P.
She died? 😢
@@malcolmbliss777 Yeah, it's sad.
Diaper Rash 😂 sounds like an opener for Spinal Tap
I'll bet they went to bitch school.
I’d go see that
Very interesting. I wasn't sure what happened to the band until watching this.
I played in a band Rok Kandi...NE Iowa in the early 80's. We were playing at Lakeside Ballroom Guttenberg IA. Vixen was coming through the area during a big snow storm. I am not entirely sure how it was set up. Either they were going to perform there, and we opened...or they contacted the ballroom possibly looking for cover from the storm. Do not know. We ended up opening up for them. Many moons ago, but remember it quiet well. Rockin ballroom right on the mississippi river.
Edge of a Broken Heart a ballad? Sorry, but since when were ballads that upbeat?
There are songs that are ballads that are upbeat. A notable example from recent years is "Dancing On My Own" by Robyn. Another example would be "Smalltown Boy" by Bronski Beat. That is an emotional song even though the production is fast tempoed. The tempo of the song doesn't matter if you can still convey an emotional message, which is what ballads are supposed to do.
@@mjello3822 Well sure, however, Edge of a broken heart is not a ballad. Love is a killer is a ballad.
Vixen they were so beautiful
VIXEN had potential. I had their first LP, But a lot of their songs were like any other metal band at the time.
They didn't stand out as much as l hoped they would. Precious Metal and Phantom Blue, 2 other all-female bands made it to at least 2 LPs in their lineup.
Its a Shame. . . Too many Chefs spoiled the broth, and not enough support from recording companies
Phantom Blue was an awesome band. They should have been huge!!!
And now we got 3 sisters from Mexico making their way in the rock world 👍😃🇲🇽💥🥁🎸🎹🤘🤘🤘⚡🌏⚡🕯️🙏🌌🇺🇸💜☀️😎⚠️⚠️⚠️🌪️🌪️🌪️🌟🎉🌎🌍🌏🔥🔥🔥
They were late to the party and not that great anyway.
Seem like a gimmick to most of us.
😂😅 many bands were dumped that didn't deserve it. Countless bands signed a contract and never charted 😢😢
I love your videos but you always seem to cut them too short. I would have loved to see more about what happened after the classic line up broke up the first time.. At least do a follow up video
Vixen opened for Eddie Money at the Masonic Auditorium, in Detroit 1988. They were amazing, the songs and energy had the place all-out rockin'. Great band!!!
BTW: I met Share and her hubby, Bam. She’s awesome. Signed my cd’s & everything. Then sat us down right in front for the show.
They seem to be out and about on the touring circuit today and have kind of a cool older rocker vibe to them. Like not embarrassing or having let themselves go …. Good for them ! I loved the first album good memories !
All they had to say was sharon osborne and i KNEW they got ripped off. Shes a music crook
...and a Jew
"you've gotta reign in your weirdness on this one" 😂
Full in Bloom channel posted a video the other day about how Sebastian ended up in Madam X.
I had seen Vixen 2x in their hey day. They were good but they followed the same formula as other Hair bands with forced ballads and TV and Radio friendly Top 40 Rock songs as priority. They got screwed but they also followed the path leading them there.
It stinks there never was a Hardbodies soundtrack release. That is my favorite stuff from the band.
I met Jan K. many moons ago when she was selling some Kitty Hawk 4x12’s out of her garage in Hollywood and was immediately smitten by her down to earth personality and beauty soul as my bassist and I sat in her garage, just shooting the shit about the music business in general. I was truly heartbroken when I learned of her passing.
In my opinion, it's not Vixen unless it has all original members! Rip Jan!!
Yes, they're one of those bands where it doesn't really feel right with replacement members.
In her prime, outside of Ann Wilson, no female vocalist rocker could touch Janet, perfect pitch and tone, master of compression/distortion, that "growl" sound 🔥 🎵🎶
i liked them, but before this video, never realized how mean they were towards people.
Why do you not say the name of her best friend she started with? Bad reporting.
Its a shame and I don’t get it I saw vixen in the uk around 1990 time they were brilliant only time I’ve ever seen them x
Screwed over so bad that they're each famous millionaires and still touring
I saw them last year. They rocked very hard with Britt Lightning on guitar. The new singer was fantastic. I was skeptical but she won me over.
Lorraine Lewis is the "new" lead vocalist. She has been in a band called Femme Fatale. They were pretty damned good. Had a couple of minor hits "Falling in an out of Love," and "Waiting for the Big One." I believe they had been out of Albuquerque and I would sometimes see their videos on Headbanger's Ball.
@@edwardvaca2627 One of the male guitarists in Femme Fatale passed away. Not feeling right replacing him, Lorraine made an all female version of Femme Fatale. Nita Strauss was a guitarist. They were good. Strauss is worth checking out. Has her own stuff (think all musical) and tours with Alice Copper.
Last time I looked at Femme Fatale or Vixen videos and read comments, Lorraine was responding to posts. Recommend watching the videos to the songs you mentioned. Lorraine was stunningly beautiful. And she still looks good today.
Let’s face facts: they were not going to be the Beatles. Many of my fav bands never headlined U.S. Arenas. THIN LIZZY was one.
If Don Arden was involved you new you were getting fucked...
Seems you rushed through the last 15 years of the band - they released 4 other albums and have been touring pretty consistently. Did you just hit the 15 min mark and say "OK I'm done"?
This all seems really familiar. I'm fairly certain he's done a video on Vixen in the past. 🤔
I remember when they came out 😂
It was hilarious 😂
I never took them seriously 😂
Let's face it. Sad as it may be. Their debut album and Rev it up are really the only albums worth talking about.
I've seen them live 2 times in the last 2 years . I also got to meet them when my friends band opened for them . They still put on a great show and are very nice .
I remember laughing at these chix 😂
My local girls! Also, all the clubs you mentioned are pretty much where I lived during my teen years.
The fans loved girl bands if you want to imply sexism that’s on record company’s personally heart,Joan Jett,lita ford loved them all
There’s a good interview of Lita Ford at The Professor of Rock.
1. I've seen them live twice and they really aren't very good.
2. Their hit song was written by someone else.
3. Their gimmick was being an all female band.
Reality = You didn't get screwed, you just were not as good as the competition.
She used to do my teeth
If people want to know about some all-female bands, three that immediately come to mind are The Warning (three sisters, usually the guitarist sings, sometimes the drummer sings), BAND-MAID, and Burning Witches.
I love Burning Witches! They’re awesome.
The Warning is a serious band. Very talented. They rock.
All good bands. If you want your mind blown by serious powermetal, check out Lovebites from Japan. Any Band Maid link should have Lovebites in the suggestions.
Vixen wasn't a metal band just a syrupy pop band with marx penned tune
13:07
I was actually a big fan of Vixen and saw them when they opened for Ozzy where unfortunately most of the fans booed because I guess they weren't metal enough.
Its time to rename the band Roxy
Roxen
You're using "would" when you dont need it. Just use the simple past forms for single events.
They were a solid band!! Unfortunately they were all pretty and not taken seriously.
😂Better makeup
Its such a shame that they didn't last long & they had some awesome songs
Jon Butcher wrote "American Dream". It's a kick ass song and they slayed on it! I've always been a fan of both.
Jan was so hawt.
would like to see a Smashed Gladys
Never heard of them.
rise ? they never even had a hit song ?
I don't give a sh*t what the male bands and people would say about vixen. This all female band was kicking a$$. Screw what people say, rest in peace Jan. You started this awesome band. All of you were hot looking.
Can u do wasp?
Rageaholic did one on Wasp if you haven’t seen it.
@@richardaaron4454 Thanks
@@onurozuvar6299 No problem, I thought he did a good job on it. He’s a huge fan.
@@richardaaron4454 sure it is over an hour long it will enjoy it
It's kind of shame their best song wasn't written by the band. Kind of takes away their credibility.
Them being women wasn't a problem for us consumers. The songs, arrangements riffs etc. weren't strong enough material. They actually got a career because of their gender. Males doing their material would've not been noticed.
Wtf difference does that make ? You have any idea how many song hits for bands they didnt write!
Did Elvis write any of his songs?
@@rumblehat4357 It's problematic to attempt to compare different eras with each other. Two different industry's in reality.
i will admit as a teenager I was really turned off by what the critic said about the band as well. It seemed really lame to me at the time that the women bands were trying to do what the men do but turn it up to 11 that it seemed ridiculous. They would use every rockstar pose and trope every minute of every song. It felt like they were trying too hard to prove themselves. I'm not saying I was right but I think that was also the feeling of many other people as well. I heard it a lot from others making fun of them and others when they would be on MTV.
The one great thing about growing older is that it is never too late to go back and appreciate what was previously dismissed.
No, it wasn’t you, I definitely got that vibe from them.
Well it seems to be true that all female rock bands proportionally much more songs that have no content, just rock something repeated or are love songs.
U talk too much
Or do velvet underground. The fist album sold hundreds of copies yet almost every listener of the band started successful bands.
Jan Kuehnemund should’ve moved to LA much sooner than waiting till 1980. I don’t need to watch the video.. By the time ‘Vixen’s song video came out MTV in 1987 was too late.
If you like female bands, hell if you like GOOD MUSIC, check out The Warning from Mexico, or from Japan you have Band-Maid or Love Bites. Great music!
It's crazy how sexist people were towards female rock bands.
Hardbodies was one of my favorite movies during the 80s…. My friend is flipping u off in 50 different languages… 😂
Wow I didn't know they went so far back. All of them are really good musicians. They can play.
I remember getting chased away from their tour bus in Detroit by a crew guy!!😂😂...i wanted to be their groupie for the night!!...hahaha!!!
I liked the band from the beginning, the straight sound suited every metalhead. Unfortunately there was a name confusion in Germany, because there Vixen sounds like a word for jerk.
Saw Vixen and White Lion open for Ozzy in St. Louis. Met Vixen when they stopped in the K-SHE 95 studios where I was an intern.
I saw them on the Ozzy/White Lion tour. I felt so bad for them because they had this tiny section of the stage, but they absolutely nailed it. If anyone's seen the video where Mike Tramp trips going up the steps behind the drum kit, that's the show I was at. (Those lights were super bright and blinding btw.)
How do you make a video about a hard rock band and NOT know how to pronounce Kalodner?!? Embarrassing.
They were the real deal, no question about that! Kind of a shame that it went the way it did for them what with one thing and another but they have a legacy of two solid albums and, for me, they more than proved themselves as writers as well as musicians with "Rev It Up. A great live band also!
hehehe say 'Vixen' a few times more! the way it's pronounced, it sounds exacly like the german word for 'wanking/getting off' =P
wichsen
I saw them a few months ago. Impressive live..
Well you made it to where you forced yourself now to be slave to the RUclips you better get used to it are you going to overdo yourself worrying about the next damn check and you're going to miss all those people on Venice boardwalk now don't get too depressed now you got to work your way through it and it will be avoid and you got to work you might have to physically go down Juventus and just ride around or something or set up a small booth some way to get out amongst the people that's actually a good idea
Yikes..some of them aged worse than most 'old Male rockers'..😬
I had a poster of Vixen on my wall when in 3rd grade. I had never heard a song of there's and just thought they were hot.
The second record was as good as the first. They have some great music.
They just weren't very good and had a corporate sound. No surprise they went nowhere
you do realize Vixen are still going, don't you?
Their third album, Tangerine, is worth seeking out.
The singer came from Missoula Montana and used to be a teacher. I knew her brother.
Greg Bissonnet is from Detroit too. He beat out a homegirl for the DLR gig.
Hair Metal was not ready for mixed bands.
GR8 work on this! Suggestion: 90's act out of Rhode Island "The Throwing Muses". Boston act "Tribe". U will not be sorry.
Thanks! Wasn’t Tribe in rock band 1?
Back around '89 Vixen came to play at our high school as a result of the kids winning a radio contest. I can only imagine what they had to think coming to our backwater burg to play for a bunch of high schoolers.
They'd done that kind of thing before. That's where midwest bands start out, especially back then.
I sure miss Gardner, but I understand times change and so do people.
Wow. Never knew they didn't even write their biggest hit.. 😳
I loved their music. Great band.
Many, many bands did and still do get screwed over
Finally....