How The Adventure Games Nail Sonic level Design
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- Опубликовано: 20 окт 2023
- Sonic adventure 1 and 2 are over 20 years old, how has the level design in both games compare to each other? Both games are very different not just in terms of graphics and tone but also the level design as well.
Played Sonic Adventure 1 for the first time this year and had an absolute blast. I was really blown away by how perfect they carried it over from 2d to 3d. Loved the video keep up the good work!
If you Love SA1 (which is my favorite out of all Sonic Games) try grabbing a Buddy and seeing who can get the fastest Times in Tails Missions, the Lack of Invisible walls makes this game SOOOOO much fun!
Please tell me you're a new fan, lol
@@ashemabahumat4173 No, I've played sonic 1-3, sonic colors, and secret rigns as a kid (sadly never beating them) with 3 being my favorite before picking up mania on launch day back in 2017. Although the only 3d sonic game I had played at the time was sonic colors and secret rings until this year with adventure 1 and frontiers.
@@jkhg102 so you just didn't play it until recently for some reason. Jesus
@@ashemabahumat4173 Yeah never had a console or pc to play them on until this year. And I got sonic adventure for black friday on steam last year due to having made a steam refund lol, but it didnt run perfectly on my latop so I just didnt play it until recently I got in a mood to play sonic because of superstars.
This is why the Adventure titles will always be top tier in all of Sonic's mainline games to me
That and Ryan Drummond
@@paulgilbert5278True. He still is the GOAT Sonic voice.
@@Xxandrew01Roger's voice just doesn't fit Sonic at all.
@@bowtiefries True. I still believe he lacks the teenage feel of Sonic that both Ryan and Jason captured. I will say this though I do believe Roger's performance as Sonic on Frontiers is the best he ever had and does show that he can at least show a serious side of Sonic very well if given the right material to work with. In which he really wasn't given so on Colors and up to Forces.
@@paulgilbert5278 Ryan Drummond's Sonic has no range, he's either energetic and cocky or energetic and cocky
Now Jason Griffith, his Sonic has so much range and emotion. He is the best Sonic
Sonic Adventure is one of my favorite Sonic Games, the Hub Worlds made it truly feel like an Adventure! Station Square, Mystic Ruins and Egg Carrier are very comfy Hub Worlds!
You should've covered Shadow's levels in SA2. They're basically the same so I think you're missing one aspect of the game not covering them.
Especially since Sky Rail was originally one of Sonic's levels and the music wasn't updated to Shadow's genre to fit the change.
Right wtf radical highway is the best level in the game
Control wise they are the same but arent they completely different levels to sonic?
SA1 is my absolute favorite Sonic game
SA1's level design is good for first time players of the series, it's great for speedrunners and it's great for people who enjoy the classic games. Unfortunately it's rough around the edges as it was Sonic Team's first try at a 3D Sonic game.
SA2's level design is great for Sonic veterans, also great for speedrunners score attackers and people looking for an engaging challenge, and it's great for people who wanna see the Sonic series grow and evolve as well as fans of the modern games.
The only thing that holds SA2 back a little IMO was the decision to map a bunch of actions to a single button. It can get frustrating when, in the heat of the moment, you somersault when you wanna spindash, bounce when you wanna lightdash, or whistle when you wanna do anything but whistle. It doesn't happen nearly as often to me as it used to, but that's muscle-memory from playing more carefully to offset it.
Apparently it wasn't even a matter of not fitting everything on a Dreamcast controller, the D-pad could've accommodated all of the extra actions instead of going unused. No, the single-button gimmick is owed entirely to Yuji Naka, who thought that control scheme was groundbreaking and genius, as it's simple enough for a toddler to pick up, whereas a videogame controller is normally too complicated for a toddler to figure out. It's why Yuji Naka's _magnum opus_ Baylan Wonderworld had a single-button control scheme, when every modern controller is more than equipped to handle every necessary input.
It's a small pet-peeve, I still love SA2, but it's baffling how many people let him get away with that.
I miss hub worlds in games so much. It's one of the reasons that the original Spyro games and Sonic Adventure 1 are two of my favorite games. SA2 had some fun levels, but it was missing the breaks in-between the action where you could just explore and not have to worry about going fast.
Dreamcast was one of a kind. Why do its games still look so fantastic? The animation is so crisp
These games were the perfect 3D transition. While I do have issues with SA1, I still enjoy it and SA2 is one of my favorite video games ever. The level design in SA1 is more open, but SA2's still is open, and I just like the aesthetics and music of SA2's levels more.
Perhaps a perfect example how not to do a 3d transition.
@@snakey888 Bro's hating in the replies everywhere cuz he has nothing better to do 💀
@@ElectrikStatik900
Thing is, it was far from perfect transition to 3d. It missed several important concepts.
What’s happening? Lol
@@Purplespice250Oh yeah! This is happening!
12:00 the reason you're confined to that road is explained by the voiceline at the start of the level: "Attention all units, suspect seen heading south. BLOCK ALL MAJOR ROADS AND CAPTURE THE SUSPECT". You're not able to go down other roads because of police barricades
Yeah but this is prevalent pretty much throughout the whole game.
@@qtippzit’s natural in the other stages. City escape using context to establish that is kinda clever now that i think about it.
To be fair, Sonic has abilities to break through barricades.
“Can’t get through the barricades, guess I’ll just plow through every car on this street instead! Aw yeah!”
@thrasher698 this is such a weird strawman lol his question wasnt directed at the games reasoning but more so the devs. They created the levels to be more narrow and to reward exploration way less than SA1 which is very odd. I feel the jump from SA2 to Sonic heroes really shows how much sonic team started to do away with the more open ended style of level design. Whether thats good or bad is preference.
I've completed SA2 this game like 10 times over the years and probably played Green Forest over 100 times. I never knew you could dive lower on that vine at 14:07. 😲
Its referenced in Forces too, but since they didnt add a damaging object and a item above it to reward skill or get hurt its completely irrelevant and is just a awkward bungie jump lol
@@TheReZisTLustLeave it to Forces to recreate an older thing in the most boring and soulless way possible.
I'm addicted to crazy gadget and final rush. Both levels are incredibly fun to speedrun
wonderful video Cybershell
The red hot skull tune when sonic is in hell in SA1 is such a banger.
I miss Sonic adventure era because i like how there was a dark tone to the story they won't really make sonic games like this anymore
I don't think they even _can_ make a Sonic game like this anymore. It's been too long, and they've replaced too much of the old guard. Even if they made an effort to relearn the fundamentals that made Sonic Adventure great, anything they'd make now would feel more like a fanmade project than a genuine return to form.
There can be good fanmade Sonic games, and good fanfiction, but it'll never close that gap, you know what I mean?
Unleashed and frontiers?
@@Codyslx The only thing in Unleashed that came close to that was the opening FMV and the Egg Dragoon fight. The rest of Unleashed was very goofy in tone, with a few unearned emotional scenes sprinkled around.
Frontiers had worse plot structure and pacing. It's only memorable because of all the Super Sonic fanservice, which is about all Ian Flynn is good at. It closed out on a "Well _that_ happened" gag, which disqualifies it in my eyes.
If anything, Sonic and the Black Knight was the last game we got that was like Sonic Adventure in tone, which fits because it was the last story we got from the writer of SA1&2.
@@petergriscom3431 Frontiers tone fit with the adventure style. Your opinion on the plot doesn't disqualify it, especially when its a minority opinion.
Unleashed was far from goofy in tone but go off. It started and resolved similar to SA 1.
@@Codyslx Oh yes, Sonic turning into a Werehog, Eggman getting mocked by his own robots AOSTH-style, Professor Pickle's cucumber sandwich love affair, Chip repeatedly gushing over food, new lore that's an obvious asspull, then battling the Flying Spaghetti Monster with a Megazord. Totally rock solid tone and not cringe at all.
Sonic had a perfect transition to 3D.
Truth, unfortunately he just couldn’t keep his momentum
When he ask the question at the beginning of the video my first thought was "Ant Colony"
gotta love the "sonic has a rough 3d transition" at the start of the video
I think one of the greatest disservices Game Grumps ever did to me was turn me away from Sonic Adventure.
Love videos that analyze the level design of Sonic games.
Shouldn’t you have done shadows levels in SA2 since they are the same exact gameplay style as sonic?
Wow, I did NOT know that about the vine that drops you in Green Forest. I've played through that level so many times too lmao. Great video!
How come you didn't talk about Shadow's stages in Sonic Adventure 2?
Should've covered Shadow's stages and Green Hill.
Probably just gives SA2 too much of a hand to work with. But I suppose if you average the number of stages that go with linear design vs exploration that could change things. 🤷♂️
This was a great video, I really need to replay SA1 and 2 (it's been 5 years since I last played through them which was my first time too!)
My favorite games. I remember being in target playing the demo versions of both games. Just being completely blown away and falling in love with the series.
I’m right there with you 😂
It's a shame you left the Shadow levels in SA2 out, since it's the same gameplay style and can be judged the same way
Still a great video, just a nitpick
I just thought it was cool to be able to play these different campaigns with the different characters :)
I love that some of the songs in adventure appeared first in sonic 3d blast. like twinkle parks music. man i spent a good chunk of time learning a lot of these songs on guitar.
The beta version of Windy Valley is a blast, I recommend checking it out.
It has a lot of exploration, branching paths, and the aesthetic is incredible. Too bad they had to remake it because the Dreamcast couldn't handle it.
I’m surprised he didn’t mention it, any hardcore Sonic Adventure fan would know of Windy Valley Beta.
Yea sonic's face (ad1) is ridiculous face and sonic's walk ( ad2) is funny and cute 😂
@@sravansyam2495 ???
Great video! Always love SA analyses.
No shadow stages or green hill? Why not?
Thought you were going to get into Shadow's levels as well. But great job anyways!
In Metal Harbor to get to the higher rocket easy you need to do a spin dash jump on one of the slopes and you can glitch right through the floor and skip an entire trip around the rocket
I want to start a channel like this one some day
Heroes and 06 do a great job of contuining the Adventures style level design. They might even be better at translating the classics than SA1 or SA2.
Btw good vid but its kinda funny how u didnt talk about Shadow's speed stages in SA2
7:49 God, why wasn’t Speed Highway the first level in Sonic’s story?
After the cutscene where he chases after the Police cars, Sonic could enter Speed Highway, but the last part of the stage would have to be cut or replaced with that scrapped Police Car scene where Sonic jumps from police car to police car as he approaches Chaos 0.
In the prototypes there was no outside
Great video! Your voice reminds me of cybershell sometimes lol
Imo SRB2 handles bringing classic sonic to 3D, leagues better than the Adventure games. I don't really care that it's a fan game. It's a fully featured video game with sonic in it, and the quality is premium enough to outclass official games, so it counts to me.
Say they nailed Sonic level design, using for the thumbnail one of two good Sonic levels from Adventure 2. I don't even agree Adventure 1 nailed it, but at least it actually was pretty good.
Simply seeing SA2 soothes my soul
Nice class, tks bro.
Great video but how tf did you get lost on the crazy gadget blocks?? 😭😭
0:15 That's WHY the pretty much HAVE to be big. Sonic's speed means you need bigger levels (or at least a lot of enemies and obstacles) in order to extend the gameplay.
Sky Deck: "There are too many bottomless pits"
Y'mean in the area where you're moving around the exterior structure of the Egg Carrier to find your way in?!
City Escape: The military are chasing you down and will do whatever it takes to capture you. You wanna run RIGHT INTO THEIR PATH?!
Crazy Gadget: Eggman has control over the Ark. You think he's gonna make it easy?
This is an amazing dissection of sonic level design philosophy
Can you make the same kind if video comparing it to the levell design in spark 2 and since they're inspired by these games.
I think SA2 has better stages, I like pretty much all the stages in SA2. I only really find Crazy Gadget to be slightly annoying. And you also have the Shadow levels which are all very fun. I don’t really like Casinopolis, Sky Deck, or Lost World in SA1.
I understand how insane this comment might sound but I always thought 3D Sonic was generally better than 2D Sonic. 3D Sonic actually fulfilled the promise of letting you go fast whereas 2D Sonic level design actively got in the way of that.
You went the whole video without mentioning Open Your Heart somehow. It slaps.
“Because sonic is all about speed”
I’m going to blow a gasket!
But good video
Yo I've played this game over and over and I'VE NEVER KNOWN ABOUT THIS HIGHER ROUTE 12:35
Amazing vid
The beta version of windy valley is imo the perfect 3d sonic level design
I will never get used to Unleashed braindead rush gameplay bc of how tight adventure stages were
Windy Valley samples Green Grove Zone from Sonic 3D Blast 💥
Nah cause the analysis here was skin deep what
most of the 'problems' are just skill issues other than that good video
the camera in sa1 is complete crap but besides that yeah
And then, Sonic Heroes happened and it was a massive disappointment for me, and the beginning of a downward spiral. Never ever did I feel the same excitement as in SA an SA2.
I thought the top paths were faster but harder to stay on while the bottoms were slower but safer.
sa1 is the best
No it's sa2
@@Jacob.-ug9fo nobody cares sa1 had best level design and sa2 had best story
Sonic unleashed fans right now 😭😭😭
@@Purplespice250 im actaully a unleashed fan just i enjoy sa1 more because of how much exploration is in it
@@waff64 oh I agree with the level design I just meant for the story lol 😂
My only qualm about level design in the Adventure games is that they look like floating obstacle courses with JPGs stretched across the screen to serve as backdrops. I'm sure it's a sign of the time, but Adventure 1 nailed the facade while Adventure 2 levels felt disconnected from the environment they were based on.
That's one of the reasons I've always had a soft spot for Sky Deck, as while I understand people's gripes with it, the fact that the level follows a logical path around the Egg Carrier and affects the story afterwards made me appreciate the thought that went into its design as a location and not just a level.
That's what they were more or less since they all basically have fall offs lol Final Rush looks the most natural cause it's in space
@@TheReZisTLust True, but the issue is at its worst during the racing levels. It just looked silly having a floating race track just sitting there over a backdrop lol
Not really, SA1 looks pretty weird at times, you can see the highways floating around in station square, same for the ones in windy valley or how artificial sky deck looks, some stages tend to fail at a believable environment, specially with how some of it is just flat platforms suspended around (ironic that it's called momentum based when a lot of it isn't even curved)
@@croc6105 I’m not sure about station square but Sky Deck makes sense because it’s supposed to be an unstable path leading to the bridge of an airship. And windy valley because, of course, it’s a windy VALLEY. In SA2 literally everything was a floating obstacle and that’s why I made the comment. My apologies if I sound too aggressive 😃
The Adventure games were the only Sonic games I really ever appreciated, that is until Spark 3 :D
Music and story from Unleashed + the structure of Colors + Sonic gameplay and level design from SA1 = best Sonic game
SAME
I love final rush now for some reason.
Bro hit the algorithm
I’m listening and the things you dislike are the things the game teaches you not to do like don’t lose In The casino or be thrown into the sewage like final fantasy 7. It’s not suppose to be that likeable compared to being on top where progression is in the casino. It’s a change of pace and a staple of sonic. You also said the mountain stage kept giving out 1ups bc the next stage you said there’s “too many pot holes” so you know your patience is what defeats you. The imagination is the spice that most people lose and that’s why these new games don’t dig deeper but I definitely like what you said about sonic 1 in general being a great platformer but I would say it’s diluted by the other gameplay styles just like sa2 but at least they made it a story you wanted to get through out of intrigue and not just to be done like sa1. (1st half thoughts of sa1)
Sa2 portion: the pacing in sa1 said drags out and has inconsistencies bc it’s not really telling a great story while focusing on their gameplay. Sa2 polishes the good stuff removes the drag and makes for a good speedrun game over sa1. That’s why the levels use layering with different type of gimmicks but makes sure their logically except that pyramid one i agree wholeheartedly the pick orb thing can fck itself! Once you got good at sa2 you could style on the final stages and I wish they had more of that or a whole sonic and shadow game sa2 style but just them bc the mecha tails was pointless like the mech in sa1 and treasure hunt is filler every sonic 🤣. If you’re a kid or grew up with sa1 I think you’ll like it better but sa2 was my first so going backwards ruined sa1 bc I was lost 😂
Last edit: also sa2 had cool options for menu announcer, their chao garden and it’s mechanics were to die for! Using the GameCube to gba adapter made a bridge and link that I never got on Dreamcast but change the game for chao garden! I still have the GameCube memory card with the data. But you did a good job overall!
Pretty good analysis but should’ve included Shadow’s levels
Continue posting fnaf content!! I believe you have future here as I watched some of your videos and I really liked the format. You need to make more videos focusing more on the fnaf lore and with more editing. Good luck!!!
As a kid i died like 50 times trying to do that gravity level.
Woah, someone on RUclips not shitting on SA 1+2?! EZ Sub
I know this is about level design m, but imagine Heroes w8tu Adventure controls
5 foot 1 3d hedgehog? How big are those cop cars in the background?! 1:00
Pretty sure the height stayed the same.
a minute in and I've never heard of any version of sonic that wasn't a metre tall.
Lost World's first track is the best to me.
Sonic Adventure 1 just need patches and a better camera. Its clunky but still fun. I love the look.
I agree that Sonic Adventure 1 has way better level design in general. Obviously both games have little flaws here and there but the overall sensation is that Adventure 1 is a perfect translation from the Sonic 1 level design to 3d environments.
I feel like I’m the only person who actually likes sky deck
These are two games that easily make my top five favorite games list. Metal Harbor is so dang exhilarating to speedrun.
Though not quite up to the level of these two, I also think Sonic Heroes and Shadow the Hedgehog are great games with great level designs.
(I know everyone hates Shadow, I have loved the game ever since I first played it. It has clunky storytelling, and the two levels set on the Ark in the past are kinda garbage, but the rest has so much to love about it.)
I loved playing through the hard mode of Shadow the Hedgehog. Made the game so much more enjoyable since there was no worrying about missions, just getting from point A to B like every other sonic game
I like the other characters in both sa1 and sa2. I just think they are mediocre platforming fun compared to Sonic’s amazing levels. I could live without the other characters, but as a fan of these characters, it’s fun to play through everyone’s story when you just wanna relax and get into the world of sonic
you should have talk about the shadow levels too they play exactly like sonic and some of them are better than sonics levels in my opinion sky rail is my all time favorite
Pretty good video, sonic adventure games are still my favorite 3d games and sone of the few games that I return after finish them.
SA design are great for exploring and SA2 for speed (especially when you star to exploit bugs)
fantastic video !!
I like this video
I still think jungle joyride from unleashed has the best level design in the entire series
Hey, It's Premmytheremmy
fax
That and rooftop run
@@Pure_Gamez ?
That level took me 19 minutes when I did it for the first time. I’m scared to go back. Not saying you’re wrong it just traumatized me.
What is it with these new gamers complaining about difficulty and opposition in games? U casuals are ruining the industry. either level up or watch a movie. but dont bash a level or a mechanic becuase u cant breeze thru the first time.
Ey bruh, I’m a casual player and I know for sure that I just have a skill issue, don’t bump me in with those guys 🥲
Sonic fans are insufferable.
Normal people don't care about the "rough transition to 3D" or the "Adventure aged poorly" bullshit, they just want to have a good time.
True.
I think if you count the shadow stages then SA2 beats SA1 by a tiny margin
Can someone explain to me why, besides P-06 and Sonic World, nobody has made a 3D Sonic game that’s literally just adventure 1 or adventure 2 level designs but new? Like you guys know what I mean where ppl make 2-D Sonic games that are literally like “Sonic 2 but with my own level designs.” Why don’t ppl do this for like… Adventure?
Like most of the games that want to remake the adventure style do it but make the levels huge or like a sandbox instead of literally like… a custom version of Speed Highway 😂 you guys get what I mean? Like why is there not a Shadow fan game where he plays exactly like Adventure 2 and his levels are all “Radical Highway but custom” like there are for 2D Sonic games
Man I miss the SA games. SEGA knows what fans want but they refuse to deliver.
As someone who unlocked Green Hill Zone by A ranking every level in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, I cannot say that Crazy Gadget was a good level. It's just not happening.
Didnt cover the dark stages wtf
You forgot the levels from adventure 3.
SA1 Level Design>SA2 Level Design
you sound like cybershell's younger brother
Gotta be honest. Your ranking for the SA levels is wack. I loved everything you didn’t like about the levels. Windy Valley has a banging soundtrack. And red mountain is alright. The best song no way is speed highway, not when there’s emerald coast, and nearly all of them in the last level. I loved the twinkle park bumper cars and I love the trash part of casinopolis.
Anyway it’s got great level design like you said but your opinion is wack
The adventure games were better because they had 1st party resources devoted to them. Sonic took a step back once Sega went third party
SA1 is my favorite. It has my favorite level design which embraces the classic level design far better than SA2’s more linear designed levels
0:57 "uhmm actually classic sonic is 2'2 and sonic is 3'3 🤓🤓🤓"
The sa2 speed formula was really disappointing at first due to the linear hallways that is the level design. But with games like Unleashed, they really improved the formula, and made it pretty satisfying.
Still, the original Sonic formula is just way more rewarding and provides more depth, and engagement.
I don’t entirely agree: I think the SA2 Sonic levels do a good job of letting the player “style on” the game more directly. It doesn’t have branching paths as much, but the ranking system gives a new way for players to show their abilities, and the relatively strict scoring of this game helps to make sure game knowledge actually matters for those high ranks
@@spindash64 '
To be fair, score attacking is a thing in most Sonic games, even the ones that use the original formula. So it applies to them, just as, if not more so, to them as it does sa2.
@@snakey888
Not really: there’s not any real context to scores in older sonic games, which makes those numbers less meaningful than an easy to read letter grade
@@spindash64
It has the context that is needed, higher score means better. The letter grading system is essentially a score attack light anyway.
@@snakey888 yes, but you don’t know if 70,000 points means you did really GOOD at a level, or really BAD at a level.
Letter Rankings contextualize the score to the level, to let you know what is _expected_ for a score
This is a pretty good coverage on the Adventure games. I think you put my feelings on SA1 Vs SA2 down pretty accurately, SA1 is more of an “adventure” but SA2 is just so much more inviting for replayability with the Rank system.
I feel like your conclusion was a little rushed, it's a great video but I think you should allow yourself a little more time to express yourself.
SA2 is legit my favourite game of all time still i didnt' know half of secrets that is shown on the video lmao