I always thought Johto was unbalanced but just because of their power levels compared to eachother. Love Meganium, but that is kinda activating "hard mode" in gen 2 for playthroughs until you get more pokemon
Yeah, and it's especially bad since Grass is pretty common early on too with the likes of Bellsprout and Hoppip, yet no real contenders for Fire or Water before the first gym...
@@j.p.giambalvo1123 it's not, it's just a coincidence because they tried not to repeat the types of gyms from Kanto, which favoured the grass starter.
i vividly remember restarting my heartgold save as a kid when i got to the first gym with chikorita. (turned out with typhlosion being one of my favourite pokemon now though so its a fair tradeoff.)
Personally, I say Gen 9 is the generation where all its starters are balanced in a long while (I say since Gen 4) because they are all competitively viable in terms of stats, abilities, movepool, AND signature moves. Meowscarada is a hard hitting speedster that also gets Protean and a move that does critical damage every time and never misses, Skeledirge’s stats and tanking capabilities works with its typing and ability, Unaware, and is capable of boosting its special attack while dealing damage with Torch Song enabling it to hit like a truck and Quaquaval plus Aqua Step’s speed boost plus Moxie’s attack boost equals sweep if given the right opportunity. Most other Generations would give a really good Hidden Ability to one or two starters, leaving the other one screwed (stares at Gen 8 and 6) and some starters would get not one but two signature moves (again looking at Gen 6 and 8) but Gen 9 gave ALL their starters that, so you really don’t get this feeling that they favor one starter over the other due to predicting it’s popularity. I’m really glad because I was never a big fan of Gen 8’s starters, design and all. Thank you for such a great topic, Emperor Cubone. Once again, you know how to make things interesting. :)
I agree, the Paldea starters have done better for balance than most anything since the DS; hopefully they can build on that and Gen 10 will give us a perfectly balanced trio to play around with!
i really like the secondary type triangles, they either offer ways to reinforce strengths and weaknesses, or turn the tables and be able to counter both ways. but i will say, there is something satisfying about how clean a monotype trio of starters is.
The secondary type triangle is nice until you realize you'll never get another unique type combo in a starter ever again. Dark, Psychic, Ghost, Fairy, Fighting. Those are your choices. You'll never have another Charizard, Swampert, Empoleon, or Torterra.
You think with all the fire/fighting starters. You’d think they’d make make the others grass/rock & water/flying respectively so that they would make two complete trios into one. That would have been fairly balanced & awesome!
Fair point; I guess that makes the biggest loser of all the Froakie everybody chose at the start of the game and then dumped in the box when its cool new abilities came out...
I think that used to be true, but the ability patch (available in 5 star raids in scar and vi) means you could change their ability before you even fight the elite four, so it does matter in gen 9.
Interesting cause this can go both way, stat wise or popularity wise. Kanto/Kalos is easily popular unbalanced but am curious what gen is stat/move wise
@@SoundDarkness13 If you go to where people actually play pvp pokemon, megaevolutions are alive and well. I thought this was going to be a video actually talking about the starters in a practical sense, not just looking at typings and calling it a day. It's so surface level it barely made a ripple in the water.
@@CiaphasKirby "where people actually play pvp pokemon" isnt really true. id say the most 'important' place people play is vgc, where they use only current gen systems. but the most populous is showdown, where they do have formats where mega evolution is available, but that is limited to gens 6&7 modes and natdex AG, which are unarguably less popular than the gen 9 formats. i totally agree about the video though, i thought he was going to go over stats and moves and stuff and actually compare them, but he just looked at the type combos that they all have. super disappointing
Stats wise it is probably Gen 2 with gold and silver. I mean at that time all fire, water, grass, electric, ice, dark and psychic attacks were using the SpAtk stats. Feraligatr has way higher Atk than SpAtk but couldn’t benefit for his Stab water moves or ice moves. Yes he can learn Earthquake that could kill Typhlosion, but it is slower than Typhlosion. Typhlosion not only has the highest speed of all starters of this gen, it also has the highest SpAtk. That means it can do serious damage with a STAB Flamethrower and always kill Meganium. But it also can learn Thunderpunch, which was also using the SpAtk at the time. So it basically would always win in a matchup with Feraligatr
Grass has a LOT of weakness and the Meganium line lacks good coverage moves. Then again if it wasn't for how bad it was then I guess we wouldn't have gotten Sceptile.
They all suck in different ways. Chikorita‘s line has a boring execution, Totodile‘s line is just ugly and Cyndaquil‘s line barely changes. It‘s not a Pokemon. It‘s a regular animal with fire powers. If anything, it‘s funny that Feraligatr has pockets of pants on its knees.
something that's tangentially linked to it is that, in Gens I & II, the type of your starter worked as a difficulty setting. e.g., Bulba was Easy mode, while Chilorita was Hard mode.
I would love a Fire/Fairy, Water/Dragon, Grass/Poison line, and if they do that they should add new eeveelutions too since they're adding so many new and interesting evolution methods. Why not walk an eevee holding a muscle band for a fighting type, or defeat 200 flying types with an eevee holding a pretty wing for a flying type. We all want more pure flying types since we only have tornadus and rookadee. We could also imply a steel eeveelution in that region to balance the fairy/dragon/poison typings on the starters.
I heard this theory on eeveelutions being based on the special attack types versus and not having any physical attack types. Maybe reference Gen 1 mechanics to see what I mean.
I don't get why Empoleon is Water/Steel instead of Water/Ice. Infernape counters it with Fighting, and its Ice typing can counter Torterra's grass and ground typings. Plus, its a penguin, so that also makes more sense for it to be ice type.
Would love to see a Water Fighting, Grass Steel, Fire Fairy set of starters. Water Bug, Grass Ground and Fire Poison isn't quite perfect but would probably have some unique mons. You could technically have a Fire Eletric to make it perfect.
It's wild to me that there are abilities that change type effectiveness and yet they've never been used to fix starter wheels, like giving decidueye a bonus damage against fairy
Always felt like Blastoise type should have been upgraded to Water/Steel when Steel type was added to the game, in similar way Magnemite and Magneton got their 2nd typing. And Blastoise is the only mono type from Kanto starters. Kinda unfair. Oh and Weedle line should have been bug/steel instead of bug/poison.
Problem with that is it makes Venusaur useless. The only compromise I can think of is to change Charizard into a Fire/Dragon type, Blastoise into a Water/Steel and Venusaur into a Grass/Fairy
Funnily enough, the Alola starters are balanced in the context of a playthrough. Rowlett's Flying typing gives it an advantage in the early game, but it's ghost type is weak against a lot of late game opponents and it's poorly optimized stats make it fall off a bit later. By contrast, Popplio has the worst stats of the three starters, but evolves into the very powerful Primiarina, whose typing and moves are very powerful for the late game. The Litten line is the most balanced, neither falling off nor struggling, but never being the most powerful of the three.
Rowlett had such a bad matchup in Alola because Game Freak had to balance the fact that Rowlett was the bestest round boi to ever exist and therefore there needed to be incentives to pick the other starters.
I think Protean/Libero were nerfed more because of interactions with the Tera mechanic than for any actual "balance" reasons. With how glitchy and buggy Scarlet and Violet are, I would not be surprised if they kept running into program errors with those abilities when interacting with Tera forms
One thing that is weird is they HAVE changed hidden abilities before, Scolipede for example had quick feet in gen 5, now speed boost. I wish they'd re-examine the worse starter HAs so they could be better, like Meganium with Thick Fat instead. Or if that would unbalance the Fire/Grass/Water triangle, maybe a new ability that resists Ice/Flying themed after an enduring plant against the cold & wind.
What I'd like to know is the possible shared theme of the starters of the first three generations, the generations after those are more clear but the theme of the first three, if they even have one, evades me.
I’m not sure if it’s fair to account for hidden abilities in this sort of judgement, considering by the time you start getting hidden ability starters (or ability patches) you’re most likely already in the post game, where “which of these three Pokémon will be the best to start the game with” stops being a question entirely
When it comes to the Kalos trio, the main thing that's caused unbalance between them in my opinion is popularity Greninja excels in that aspect considering he has an amazing design, he had great anime representation, he was Pokemon Of the Year, and he was in Smash (I love using him there) whereas Delphox is severely disliked and Chestnaught isn't that great to some people either
"Unbalanced starter trio" is a broad statement. Unbalanced in what sense? Unbalanced in competitive? Against each other? By fan popularity? Type effectiveness against each other? Abilities? Movepool? How useful they are in a playthrough? In their design and concept? I honestly don't know how to answer your question but I'll say Emboar is the most unbalanced I suppose.
I think mudkip is unbalanced, as he can take HALF the gym with ease. And the fact most grass can be countered by ice move he can easily learn(ice hail). Hes a walking fortress
Beats me? It happens more than you'd think though; I've got at least 70 videos with more views than my current subscriber count, so apparently people just come back a lot but are afraid of commitment...
@@emperorcubone It’s kinda like a double edged sword with the algorithm. I see your videos often and like most of them, so I just assume I’m already subscribed. Honestly a little ridiculous you don’t have more subs, your videos are always good.
Johto for the Gator being an easy cruise control to win with ice fang basically dunking most of the game. Galar for saying the rabbit had libero pre launch cementing it as the objective best pick. Paldea for the grass cats signature being both weaker and not self boosting as well as the needless neutering of protean. And last Kanto for the lizard being the actual single most favored starter, with squatters rights in every region ever, being the center of attention in Galar over their own regional Pokémon, getting battle gimmicks that others aren't allowed as well as extra ones when everyone gets them, and for being the icon of peer pressure for the devs to keep slapping dragon on it instead of leaving it a dinosaur.
I get how that would influence your choice, but not really how that's "balance." Do they each have to be super effective against three of the 12 gym leaders or elite four members to be evenly balanced?
@@emperorcubone it’s balance based on single player main story rather than battling against other starters, something that rarely happens in the story. They don’t have to be all good against equal numbers of gym leaders, but they all need one or two super effective and not have one that’s SE against way more than the others. So no chickorita stuff, and empolon becomes way too good when the ai is the one trying to counter. I’ve thought the last 2 gens were great!
I definitely say Hoeen is pretty nicely balanced as all 3 are viable and powerful there is no "weak link" like what the Chikorita line is as far as gen 2 starters. Yes they all have mega evolutions, and all 3 of their megas are very powerful and viable in their own way, they is balanced pros and cons for each with mostly more pros and can't go wrong with either Hoeen starter
Well that's true if you are playing ORAS, if you play any of the GBA versions then Sceptile is easily a weak link thanks to all it's offensive moves having the power of 10, 20 or 40 until level 29 when it learns 70 power Leaf blade...
@@V-Jes gen 3 was also before the physical and special split, therefore all grass moves were special attack Including leaf blade and considered Sceptile has a higher special attack means it hit a harder leaf blade as well as if you taught It dragon claw thru tm as dragon was still special as well, along with like HP Ice and Perhaps giga drain you were set
Where as Swampert was only able to use it's ground stab for it's higher physical attack and it's water stab for special attack as it's special attack was mediocre. Blaziken has a higher physical attack as well but faired alittle better since it's special attack was not too far behind it's physical so was able to use it's special fire stab and physical fighting stab quite nicely
@@Weav576 End/Post game TM's and Egg moves are not a good example of it having good moves when you aren't getting those moves at all when you are doing the story run of the game, also Giga drain is just 60 Power and 5 PP in Gen 3 while 40 power Pursuit becomes just useless when neutral STAB Leaf blade deals more damage than a Super Effective Pursuit...
Kinda getting bored of seeing ghost, FIGHTING, dark as secondary types for starters. We need a new trio. Maybe water/electric, fire/flying and grass /ground. Not balanced all the way but it's something diff.
I feel like the newest trio is the strongest. As far as I know, each one is viable in OU, which I don't think has ever been the case for any other trio even in their debut generations. Meowscarade has Protean, which is always on good Pokémon by default. Quaquaval has Moxie and a move that boosts its speed along with access to swords dance so if you can play it right, it has great sweeping potential. Finally, Fuecoco has torch song to boost its special attack, also giving it a chance to snowball and sweep, along with slack off for longevity and Unaware to stay strong against other Pokémon boosting their stats.
Except Skeledirge is realistically gonna be the only one firing off any Normal moves with its Sound options; why would the other two even try Swift or Body Slam when it doesn't complement their other tools?
@@emperorcubone maybe I'm confused. Are you only considering the endgame here? I always find the ghost typing really helps in playthroughs, but truth be told I don't do a lot of PvP.
Personally I think the Treecko line should have ended being grass-dark type since, thanks to the anime, Grovyle had a student/good hearted delinquent vibe to him, think Yusuke from YuYu Hakusho, due to his attitude and the fact that him and Sceptile use leaf blades as their main moves just like the stereotypical delinquent students uses pocket knifes to fight.
The reason I think they didn’t make sceptile grass dark was because hoenn already had two grass and dark type Pokémon it would have been redundant personally I would have liked to see grass poison
I always liked the fact Treecko remained pure grass. We also had two dark grass types in Hoenn in Shiftry and Cacturne, so it’s not like the type went unused
I'd say that Delphox' complete inability to do anything about Greninja is made up for by the fact that 3 gyms plus one of the Elite 4 become free sweeps to fire, and you get another free sweep from the secondary psychic as well.
You can't actually get hidden abilities on your starter when you pick it up. In some gens you can maybe change it in the very late game, but for all practical purposes; when you pick a starter for your XY playthrough, the water-type option is a Torrent Greninja, not a Protean Greninja. It's still the best of its trio, but it's not like you'll struggle if you use Delphox. I'd say gen 4 is the most unbalanced because Empoleon and Torterra are both slow. Relying on a mon that keeps getting outsped is the easiest way to get stuck and forced to item-spam. Good luck beating Cynthia's Garchomp with Empoleon without either being significantly overlevelled or bringing X-items. Meanwhile Infernape will brute-force everything with a few revives.
@@V-Jes I’ll take your word for it. I remembered it being very easy with Gren, and estimated it would also be easy with Delph. But having never used Delph, estimated conservatively.
@lol101lol101lol10199 Delphox literally has higher stats on everything except Speed and Physical attack, learns better moves and has a type advantage for over half the Gyms in the game so it's "bit" easier time, with it's only real downside being that it doesn't learn good moves when it's a Braixen.
The Sinnoh starter trio is most unbalanced in my opinion. Infernape has STAB super-effective moves against both of the fully-evolved starters and comfortably out-speeds both of them. I don't think it's fair to take into account Greninja's hidden ability or alternate form since you don't get either at the start of the game. Also, while Meganium is the least efficient choice in Jhoto, I still enjoyed using it from time to time when I was younger. I never used the other Sinnoh starters as a kid. There's a reason the one team everyone picks in Sinnoh includes Infernape. It's so much better than the other starters and the barren pool of other available Fire-types. At least Meganium is cute and the best grass-type in Jhoto.
Sinnoh try to balance the statutes by giving Toterra ground to cover for infer ape and steel to resist Torterra but Empoleon get destroyed by Torterra's earthquake
Still hate greninja entirely because it makes people forget that delphox and chesnaught even exist. It doesn't help that they haven't been in a mainline game in a while until home gets added to scarlet and violet. And geez poor chesnaught atleast delphox got into unite where it's really good and braixen was in pokken where it was one of if not the best character in the game meanwhile chesnaught has gotten nothing
Considering hidden abilities, I'm surprised the Gen 9 starters weren't mentioned in that regard. What is your opinion on that since they all seem to get busted abilities?
Well, if they're all busted, then that's still balanced, right? I mean it's way better than just ONE or even two getting hugely power tricks and not the others...
Funny enough, Protean is actually not highly used because of the huge nerf it got. Overgrow is more commonly used as an offensive ability because of Flower Trick. Unaware and Moxie are still freaking insane.
Plus his coverage is pretty good Extrasensory deals with fighting or poison types Acrobatics is stronger if there's no item and can give U a fighting chance against Chestnaught and other big types u face And I think it can get a poison type move which really helps against fairy types Plus Ice beam helps if you're taking on drasna in the league since some of her dragons are 4x weak to it
as much as i like the charmander line, squirtle was the busted starter of gen1. it learns ice moves that are super-effective against both venusaur and charizard (blizzard was 90% accurate in gen 1) and can deal hit every gym leader except misty and sabrina with super effective moves brock: has bubble misty: resists bubblebeam surge: learns dig erika: learns ice beam koga: earthquake blaine, giovanni: surf
Problem is that it's basically one shot by Erika and Surge plus spending all your money for a single move to help your starter dosen't really make it the best. Blastoise also does the worst out of the starters against Lance and the Champion
@@sibernout7717 agreed, squirtle will take massive damage from erika and surge (assuming it isn't overlevelled) 🍃⚡ however the fresh water you trade to get ice beam in gen 1 costs the same as 2 pokeballs, and you get dig for free, getting both tms shouldn't be too hard on your wallet 💸 how exactly does blastoise do worse against lance and the champion than venusaur or charizard? aside from gyarados and alakazam, blastoise can hit the rest of lance and blue's teams with super effective moves. charizard and venusaur have nowhere near that much coverage in gen 1
Let's not forget that it gets Bubblebeam right after Misty who wont use water gun/bubblebeam even when they're better than tackle because of good AI. Getting a 65 power STAB move while the other two are stuck with 35 power Vine Whip and 40 power Ember for quite a while gives it a really nice early-mid game advantage.
Johto is far more balanced than Galar. Libero Scorbunny definitely changes that balance. It's not a problem from your actual choice, since they have Blaze when you pick them.
@@emperorcubone especially after Pokemon Snap giving it that Lumiose form? Absolutely fairy. Also, the Libero argument definitely applies to Meowscarada and Greninja as well for Protean. Still Hidden abilities, and not "starters," but... definitely makes them unequal, when you consider coverage moves.
@@emperorcubone Agreed with Meganium. It would do much better in a Johto Remake, helping take out Chuck, Claire, Karen's Dark types, and Bruno's Fighting types. Yes I am aware that it will struggle with the first two gyms but you can obviously catch other PokeMon to take care of those 2 gyms.
In favoritism, the Kantoan ones- but that's more in treatment. I never liked how Charizard had two megas a n d a non-DLC Gigamax. But that's more about favoritism messing up balance.
maybe you could also do a video on the most (un)balanced pairing of other pokemon. like legendary couples or trios. some of them are really wack, like Entei being weak to suicune, and suicune being weak to Raikou, but Raikou has no weakness to fire.
Holy crow I’m third today! Good morning Early Squad! Can’t wait to see which Trio is dubbed Wonkiest of All 😆😆😆 Thanks for the new video Emperor Cubone and go hug your furbabies all 💙🐱💙
Its absolutely, unequivocally, the Kalos trio Greninja already had no business having such absurd coverage like *Ice Beam* which was bolstered by the balancing garbage that was pre nerf Protean, only to the then be given a free Mega Evolution Ability because Gamefreak couldn't stop slurping the dirt under Charizard nutsack and give the Kalos starters actual Megas so the anime team had to make something up for Ash's ace ninja frog back in XYZ because he was simply THAT cool apparently. There's a reason that Pikachu specifically got a slice of the gimmick pie in the next generations. I'm so glad it got nerfed into oblivion in Scarlet & Violet and I don't care how petty it is to say that (I know its not Greninja's fault but man); Delphox and especially Chesnaught deserved far better.
They did give Protean to Meowscarada too, but Meowscarada could already beat Skeledirge regardless thanks to Dark STAB, and your Grass STAB is already good against Quaquaval. (Plus Meowscarada's movepool to abuse Protean is much more limited compared to Greninja)
It really is insane how much TPCi/GF rode hard on Greninja and left Delphox/Chesnaught to the dust. They even were petty enough to give the Pokken slot to Braixen over Delphox!
Whatever your opinion is about Greninja, the gen 9 Protean nerf has got to be the WORST decision they’ve made it terms of nerfs so far. They even had the audacity to put it on a new starter too.
@YoshiBlade75 Zamazenta quite literally has no ability anymore due to Zacian's shenanigans. You can dislike the change, I understand why people do, but the pitiful existence of the Shield Dog is still the worst Gamefreak design in recent memory. Protean went from objective S-Tier unfun garbage (can you guess that I didn't like this ability) of playing Wheres Waldo with Greninja and Cinderace's typing to a solid yet still very applicable and powerful niche ability. If Pokémon were a 1v1 game, I would be inclined to agree. The only one who doesn't want it is Meowscarada, since it isn't worth losing STAB Knock Off or Flower Trick when you need it. The Battle Bond nerf is far worse, in my opinion, since it wasn't even given the courtesy of abilities like or Beast Boost and was given the dreaded once-per-match treatment. The Home update might change that, though.
In hindsight I think perhaps the reason the Kanto starters got mega evolutions instead of the Kalos ones is because they knew Greninja was going to get special treatment. That was also the generation where they outright buffed older mons because they were falling behind after all, and the main point of the mechanic at the time was also just that. No gen 6 mons got them, it wasn't just the starters. And of course without it there would be no Charizard X vs Ash Greninja in the anime either, two of the most popular Pokemon going at it with powered up forms obviously wouldn't have been Game Freak's idea even if it might be right up their alley.
The sinnoh trio is actually the most unbalanced because Infernape is the fastest of the three and his stab moves can hit both Torterra and Empoleon supereffective and it also doesn't help that he can be played as a hybrid attacker also in gen5 he was the only one of the trio to get a good hidden ability
Eh, I know it's fast, but the Defenses of the other ones are not too shabby, so with the right investment or focus sash they're gonna be able to one-shot the much more fragile monkey...
@@emperorcubone Yeah... but shouldn't that same argument be used for Greninja as well then... its a glass cannon, so even with protean it dies to a neutral hit.
@@emperorcuboneI literally can imagine that one meme with those three pirates pointing guns at one another but with Infernape, Torterra and Empoleon since their types overlap with one another. Torterra can take out both Infernape and Empoleon with Earthquake, Infernape can hit Torterra with Fire Moves and Empoleon with Fighting Moves, and Empoleon can hit Infernape with Water Moves and probably Ice Beam with Torterra
@@emperorcubone Except i don't know anyone that uses a Torterrra with Focus sash instead of Leftovers Infernape is so versatile it beats Empoleon and torterra in most scenarios
Pokémon yellow Pikachu is a way stronger starter than the other options I mean why would you go for Pikachu when Pikachu is just the same thing but better and that's no including the abomination against usability that is Pikachu
I think this is an interesting way to rank starters based on how they directly interact with each other. It becomes a lot more theoretical because for the most part this type of interaction would never happen outside of lore. In terms of gameplay, most people will just pick their favourites and generally this is looks/vibes based, which i think is very balanced across all regions. The other way to grade it is how the starters do in their respective games instead of their starter trio matchups. Having looked into before, the most unbalanced trio game wise is Johtos starters. Because the typings of major battles are whatever are left over from the kanto games (all gym types are the remaining ones), it throws what was very good balance in the first generation out the window, and all of grass’ bad matchups are in one game. Meganium goes -4 on major battles, one of the very few starters to go negative, whilst typhlosion has it easy. Comparatively, the most balanced starters is hard to pick as almost all the games are very even. Galar is even in making the starters hard to use in the second half of the game, Alola is even overall, Kalos is balanced by making the marginally best starter the weakest Pokemon (delphox), Unova is equal again in giving the starters little to do, Sinnoh is very balanced, but biased in both the amount of water HMs and the lack of accessible fire types when you really want fire types, and lastly Kanto is very balanced too, if slightly out of favour for charizard. Hoenn by my research is also unbalanced, because nothing in the game is able to beat a swampert (there are three notable grass type trainers in the game, May’s grovyle, Sidneys shiftry and a random Roselia trainer. As far as I know no one else has one). I would also argue that Hoenn has the most balanced starters in terms of appeal next to kanto but thats obviously debatable.
I think the genuine mishandled problem with Decidueye is that the stat distribution giving both of its forms severe case of identity crisis, its too slow to properly capitalize on its strengths, having just enough speed to be faster then its Alolan starter counterparts. If Decidueye had more base speed then special attack then it would've had enough ground to stand out of its own instead of almost sharing the exact same stat spread as every other grass/ghost types, just for the sole purpose so that it could be fielded with a scarce but potent set of special attack moves which overall felt contrary to its design... This is genuinely sad because this Owl Ranger was THE fan favorite design for the Alolan region starters and it feels like it was deliberately given the "Charizard" treatment to keep it grounded, it has a very cool design but is restrained by its horrible stats...
I think if we include Greninjas Protean we should also include Cinderace’s Libero. The movepool of Inteleon doesn’t have much to do against a Cinderace that changes to Electric type, and even struggles against a Fighting or Grass type switch. Rillaboom ofc just gets destroyed even harder sadly, especially when Inteleon has Flying, Bug, and Ice type coverage
Before watching videoand off the top of my head I want to say gen 6. Greninja was just so much better than the other 2 with its ability to change types, and new mega like form. And typically I usually consider 💧 and 🔥 to be better than grass for the most part with more things going against grass offensive and defensive it's usually the 2nd type that carries it or drops it down more. I want to say gen 4 had to most balance. ll 3 have a stab to hit the other 2 super effective expect Emploeon with Torterra but water always get ice moves and although it's not stab it'd 4x to Torterra which makes up for it
*thinks of some fricked up types trios during a lecture a few hours ago* "How bout a grass/steel, fire/ice, and water/rock trio, named Kassowarrior, Blastfrayz, and Armineroll?"
I always wondered why blastoise isn't water steel type i mean it stays the only kanto starter that doesn't get a second typing in its final stage.and seriously blastoise has STEEL canons so why isn't it steel type?
I think the main reason is due to Venusaur's dual disadvantage to Steel. Blastoise could resist Grass moves and counter him with Steel STAB moves thanks to Poison weakness.
If we’re mentioning the kanto megas it’s worth pointing out mega venusaur gets the thick fat ability, meaning it only takes neutral damage from Charizards fire type, as well as the ice type which would be the obvious choice for blastoise to counter venusaur
If you're going to mention the Proteon and Libera Abilities, don't forget that Terrastalization in general throws out all the type comparisons in Gen 9.
Does being weak to both of another starter's types rater than just one of their types really matter, since you can't use multiple attacks at once? As such, I see no balance issues where one or two have a weakness to both types and the other(s) only has/have a weakness to a single type. For example, it doesn't matter that Decidueye is weak to both of Incineroar's types, while the other two only have a single type weakness. (The rest of your points about that trio still stand, though.)
I have the feeling still that somewhere in development Incineroar was fighting type until someone (thankfully) said "Nope Nope, not again", because type matchup would make more sense. As now they are balanced in the way that no secondary type hits the other one supereffectively
My prediction at the start, Sinnoh is the most unbalanced base wise, Infernape beats Empoleon's Steel type with its fighting, and then Torterra's grass with its fire, and Torterra hits both for super effective with ground, and Empoleon hits Infernape super effective, and Torterra for neutral. Edit, Cubone, you make a good point with them all hitting each other and countering each other, cue 3 way Spiderman meme
Do most people not know that the reason that most fire starters are fighting type is to circumvent their rock weakness which is a very common early gym leader type. I came to that revelation one day long ago and it baffled me that people don't know.
How many triangles are there because it might be good for Pokémon to move away from grass, fire, water. Flying, Rock, Fighting? I can’t think of another…
Honestly the only trios that are unbalanced in my opinion are Kalos and Jhoto. In Jhoto Cindaquill is just objectively the best against the set of gym leaders. Like you pointed out in Kalos gre ninja and it’s movepool and abilities are just too OP
The issue with the Sinnoh Starters (and by this I mean Empoleon getting the short straw) is that Torterra and Infernape have STAB options to counter the other two, Empoleon does not. Sure it can Ice Beam a Torterra for x4 damage, but it's not going to be a guaranteed one shot if you're even slightly underleveled. I did a Nuzlocke in Platinum using Empoleon. Barry's Torterra *survived* an Ice Beam and I was only like 2 levels lower. The following Earthquake scared the crap out of me, but he survived that. STAB isn't always the answer, but it can be a very helpful factor.
@@emperorcubone does avalanche give a negative priority? Can't remember. Even if it does, that's still a powerful STAB move you're hoping you'll survive, in a Nuzlocke :P
Fire🔥/water💧, grass🍃/fire🔥, and water💧/grass🍃. There is the starters types there should be in a generation. The designs they could make from that would be epic.
Honestly I don't think there's an "official" term for most any Pokemon category, except maybe Legendary. All the rest has just been used by fans for so long that's what everybody calls them...
I want to bring up a minor correction on the Sinnoh analysis. Emploeon has an option that can overpower both Infernape and Torterra. Emploeon learns the Flying-type moves Peck and Drill Peck, which are super effective against Fighting (Infernape), Ground (Torterra), and Grass (again, Torterra).
While Flying is immune to Ground it is not super effective against it, but yes; if anyone thought TMs for Ice moves were somehow cheating Empoleon gets Flying attacks by levelup...
I would say Gen 1 in terms of popularity and Gen 4 in terms of starter interactions. In both cases, it's the fire type that's the best and the water type that's the worst.
I think kalos galar and sinnoh have the right way of balance: each starter can battle and or beat the others even if the secondary type may make one weak to the other two (like empoleon), their main typing still handles them or coverage helps immensely (empoleon ice move and water move solved the infernape torterra issue), greninja also is only Unbalanced if you got a hidden ability which is easier said than done and definitely not in the main game so that trio is very well balanced with each type handling the other. The most unbalanced for how they perform in game has to be gen 2: grass is my second favourite type for its huge supportive help but oh my God johto is the worst grass has ever been treated: so many weaknesses to gyms and poison bug and flying types everywhere with very few ground water and rock types to face makes chikorita the least useful starter by a country mile. Totodile is ok but not that many fire ground or rock types either but steel bug grass and ice are all plentiful enough in johto where cyndaquil easily dominates. But for typing? I’d say the least balanced is probably gen 7 just because Primarina having fairy type only benefits and doesn’t help incineroar at all while decidueye is only using it’s grass type as ghost doesn’t help for the other 2 starters. Instead a grass fighting and water fairy would have solved this issue giving Primarina more to do with its fairy type decidueye more to handle grass and incineroar still wrecking decidueye but neutral to fairy but still weak to water.
![[DRAGON BALL LEGENDS REVEALS ＆ STUFF] LEGENDS FESTIVAL 2024 Special Edition Part 2](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/af0phKxitX8/mqdefault.jpg)
I always thought Johto was unbalanced but just because of their power levels compared to eachother. Love Meganium, but that is kinda activating "hard mode" in gen 2 for playthroughs until you get more pokemon
Yeah, and it's especially bad since Grass is pretty common early on too with the likes of Bellsprout and Hoppip, yet no real contenders for Fire or Water before the first gym...
I think that was probably intentional, given how it was known that Bulbasaur was easy mode in Gen I.
@@j.p.giambalvo1123 it's not, it's just a coincidence because they tried not to repeat the types of gyms from Kanto, which favoured the grass starter.
@@BladeXRG blastoise is better in gen 1 tbh
i vividly remember restarting my heartgold save as a kid when i got to the first gym with chikorita. (turned out with typhlosion being one of my favourite pokemon now though so its a fair tradeoff.)
Personally, I say Gen 9 is the generation where all its starters are balanced in a long while (I say since Gen 4) because they are all competitively viable in terms of stats, abilities, movepool, AND signature moves. Meowscarada is a hard hitting speedster that also gets Protean and a move that does critical damage every time and never misses, Skeledirge’s stats and tanking capabilities works with its typing and ability, Unaware, and is capable of boosting its special attack while dealing damage with Torch Song enabling it to hit like a truck and Quaquaval plus Aqua Step’s speed boost plus Moxie’s attack boost equals sweep if given the right opportunity.
Most other Generations would give a really good Hidden Ability to one or two starters, leaving the other one screwed (stares at Gen 8 and 6) and some starters would get not one but two signature moves (again looking at Gen 6 and 8) but Gen 9 gave ALL their starters that, so you really don’t get this feeling that they favor one starter over the other due to predicting it’s popularity. I’m really glad because I was never a big fan of Gen 8’s starters, design and all. Thank you for such a great topic, Emperor Cubone. Once again, you know how to make things interesting. :)
I agree, the Paldea starters have done better for balance than most anything since the DS; hopefully they can build on that and Gen 10 will give us a perfectly balanced trio to play around with!
quaquaval does still feel leagues better than the alternatives, at least when clavell uses it.
@@viviolet7 an npc that gets clapped in one hit.
i disagree. and they arent all comp viable in doubles. as for the story it is incredibly difficult to start with quaxly
what gen6 starter gets 2 sigs?
i really like the secondary type triangles, they either offer ways to reinforce strengths and weaknesses, or turn the tables and be able to counter both ways. but i will say, there is something satisfying about how clean a monotype trio of starters is.
I hate monotypes tbh
The secondary type triangle is nice until you realize you'll never get another unique type combo in a starter ever again. Dark, Psychic, Ghost, Fairy, Fighting. Those are your choices. You'll never have another Charizard, Swampert, Empoleon, or Torterra.
You think with all the fire/fighting starters. You’d think they’d make make the others grass/rock & water/flying respectively so that they would make two complete trios into one. That would have been fairly balanced & awesome!
More Grass/Rock in general would be good!
True however grass rock
Is still weak to fighting
And can only hit fire /fighting
For neutral damage
@@emperorcubone Definitely. I’d love to see more Grass/Rock types.
Torterra should've been grass/rock and Empoleon should've been water/flying ngl
@@sibernout7717ah yes the classic ability of all penguins... flight
It always comes back to Greninja. Should’ve known. Great video, dude! Thanks for taking your time to do these.
Well thank you all for taking the time to watch them! Otherwise I probably would've stopped long ago..
They are always great for my way into work!
Spoiler!
Oh dang, dude! I’m so sorry
EC "What starter trio is the most unbalanced?"
I and the 4 others in the room, "Kalos."
Maybe, we'll have to see...
I would argue that abilities don't factor into Starter comparisons because you can't use Hidden Abilities during a normal playthrough.
Fair point; I guess that makes the biggest loser of all the Froakie everybody chose at the start of the game and then dumped in the box when its cool new abilities came out...
I think that used to be true, but the ability patch (available in 5 star raids in scar and vi) means you could change their ability before you even fight the elite four, so it does matter in gen 9.
@@unkarsthug4429 I didn't think you could get 5-star raids until you beat the box legend.
@@The_One_In_Black Huh. I guess you're right. I don't know how I got that mixed up.
@@The_One_In_Black Technically if you join another person’s raid you could but I know that doesn’t count
Interesting cause this can go both way, stat wise or popularity wise. Kanto/Kalos is easily popular unbalanced but am curious what gen is stat/move wise
Greninja got Nerfed and Ash Greninja Got Retconned so yeah Charizard is still the bias kne
@@MorrisPXG I mean yeah but gmax and mega evolution are also gone, so all charizard has left is that it’s iconic
@@SoundDarkness13 If you go to where people actually play pvp pokemon, megaevolutions are alive and well. I thought this was going to be a video actually talking about the starters in a practical sense, not just looking at typings and calling it a day. It's so surface level it barely made a ripple in the water.
@@CiaphasKirby "where people actually play pvp pokemon" isnt really true. id say the most 'important' place people play is vgc, where they use only current gen systems. but the most populous is showdown, where they do have formats where mega evolution is available, but that is limited to gens 6&7 modes and natdex AG, which are unarguably less popular than the gen 9 formats.
i totally agree about the video though, i thought he was going to go over stats and moves and stuff and actually compare them, but he just looked at the type combos that they all have. super disappointing
Stats wise it is probably Gen 2 with gold and silver. I mean at that time all fire, water, grass, electric, ice, dark and psychic attacks were using the SpAtk stats.
Feraligatr has way higher Atk than SpAtk but couldn’t benefit for his Stab water moves or ice moves. Yes he can learn Earthquake that could kill Typhlosion, but it is slower than Typhlosion.
Typhlosion not only has the highest speed of all starters of this gen, it also has the highest SpAtk. That means it can do serious damage with a STAB Flamethrower and always kill Meganium.
But it also can learn Thunderpunch, which was also using the SpAtk at the time. So it basically would always win in a matchup with Feraligatr
The most unbalanced has to be Johto.
Sure, they have a neat mono-type triangle and all.
But one of them is Meganium.
Haha, this is true, Meganium is quite bad, but it could be worse I guess...
Grass has a LOT of weakness and the Meganium line lacks good coverage moves. Then again if it wasn't for how bad it was then I guess we wouldn't have gotten Sceptile.
They all suck in different ways. Chikorita‘s line has a boring execution, Totodile‘s line is just ugly and Cyndaquil‘s line barely changes. It‘s not a Pokemon. It‘s a regular animal with fire powers.
If anything, it‘s funny that Feraligatr has pockets of pants on its knees.
It's a shame since brachiosaurus are awesome. But all it needs is a good ability to help his tanking.
Even thick fat get rid of two weakness
@murcielago Cruz although their is better alternatives
Awesome video! Loved the ideas you’ve been sharing! Looking forward to more!
something that's tangentially linked to it is that, in Gens I & II, the type of your starter worked as a difficulty setting. e.g., Bulba was Easy mode, while Chilorita was Hard mode.
I would love a Fire/Fairy, Water/Dragon, Grass/Poison line, and if they do that they should add new eeveelutions too since they're adding so many new and interesting evolution methods. Why not walk an eevee holding a muscle band for a fighting type, or defeat 200 flying types with an eevee holding a pretty wing for a flying type. We all want more pure flying types since we only have tornadus and rookadee. We could also imply a steel eeveelution in that region to balance the fairy/dragon/poison typings on the starters.
I heard this theory on eeveelutions being based on the special attack types versus and not having any physical attack types. Maybe reference Gen 1 mechanics to see what I mean.
@@luminaessence3077 but all the dragon moves on gen 3 were special
WHERE IS MY DRAGON EEVEE, GAMEFREAK????
I don't get why Empoleon is Water/Steel instead of Water/Ice. Infernape counters it with Fighting, and its Ice typing can counter Torterra's grass and ground typings. Plus, its a penguin, so that also makes more sense for it to be ice type.
But, torterra is 4× weak to ice. So it ruins the triangle as others are not 4× weak to any other type.
Fairy, steel, fighting would be fun secondary types for a trio
We got fighting, fairy as secondary type already but not steel
@@aethernity8270 piplup becomes steel.
Would love to see a Water Fighting, Grass Steel, Fire Fairy set of starters. Water Bug, Grass Ground and Fire Poison isn't quite perfect but would probably have some unique mons. You could technically have a Fire Eletric to make it perfect.
We need a Pokemon game where while the region is new our starters are entirely Ultra beasts. New starters poipole stays individual.
It's wild to me that there are abilities that change type effectiveness and yet they've never been used to fix starter wheels, like giving decidueye a bonus damage against fairy
That's a great idea! That would be the perfect fix for that sort of thing! It could've been on the Gen 9 starters too...
This is the earliest I have been on your videos (it’s almost 2 am)
Well then good morning!
There is literally ZERO reason to choose Meowscarada or Quaquaval when Skeledirge is objectively the best starter in terms of design and playthrough.
Always felt like Blastoise type should have been upgraded to Water/Steel when Steel type was added to the game, in similar way Magnemite and Magneton got their 2nd typing. And Blastoise is the only mono type from Kanto starters. Kinda unfair.
Oh and Weedle line should have been bug/steel instead of bug/poison.
The stingers in the Weedle line aren't made of metal.
Problem with that is it makes Venusaur useless. The only compromise I can think of is to change Charizard into a Fire/Dragon type, Blastoise into a Water/Steel and Venusaur into a Grass/Fairy
I low-key hate Greninja for how much preferential treatment it got over Delphox and Chesnaught lmao
Really? Because I high-key hate it for that...
He deserves it. He has a great design and great anime representation. Chestnaught is meh but Delphox is severely hated for a reason
Without watching I'm gonna say gen 4 was probably the most unbalanced, due to everyone having a Super effective move to hit poor Empoleon with
So we gonna just ignore skeledirge torchsong setup
Funnily enough, the Alola starters are balanced in the context of a playthrough. Rowlett's Flying typing gives it an advantage in the early game, but it's ghost type is weak against a lot of late game opponents and it's poorly optimized stats make it fall off a bit later.
By contrast, Popplio has the worst stats of the three starters, but evolves into the very powerful Primiarina, whose typing and moves are very powerful for the late game. The Litten line is the most balanced, neither falling off nor struggling, but never being the most powerful of the three.
That's the arceus version. Normally, it stays flying
Rowlett had such a bad matchup in Alola because Game Freak had to balance the fact that Rowlett was the bestest round boi to ever exist and therefore there needed to be incentives to pick the other starters.
They giving a silent owl 70 base speed is such a crime. What were they thinking
I think Protean/Libero were nerfed more because of interactions with the Tera mechanic than for any actual "balance" reasons. With how glitchy and buggy Scarlet and Violet are, I would not be surprised if they kept running into program errors with those abilities when interacting with Tera forms
I've always picked the Fire-type starter because it's my favorite type alongside the Psychic-type. My favorite Pokemon is Blaziken!
Not Delphox, since it's both of your favorites?
Mine's Pikachu since he's the mascot and Ash's is a GOAT 🐐
I hope they make a fire/dragon, water/dragon, and grass/dragon that would be really be something..
Next Pokémon games: Pokémon Dungeons and Dragons, and all 3 starters have these types lol
One thing that is weird is they HAVE changed hidden abilities before, Scolipede for example had quick feet in gen 5, now speed boost.
I wish they'd re-examine the worse starter HAs so they could be better, like Meganium with Thick Fat instead. Or if that would unbalance the Fire/Grass/Water triangle, maybe a new ability that resists Ice/Flying themed after an enduring plant against the cold & wind.
This is 100% needed! Why are there so many bad pairings for starter hidden abilities? I'm not asking for Sap Sipper Swampert here, but come on...
@@emperorcubone or maybr thick fat swampert.... or rebuff explosion and self destruct to make it somewhat better
No no no... Thick fat makes sense for Meganium even if it does through off the types. Just look at mega Venusaur!
Sceptile and it’s mega needs a better HA. Who put lightning rod on something that quad resists it
@@ThePlanet3ater The same people who gave Lightning Rod to the Cubone and Rhyhorn families?
What I'd like to know is the possible shared theme of the starters of the first three generations, the generations after those are more clear but the theme of the first three, if they even have one, evades me.
Pretty sure there wasn't a theme in the first 3 gens. I'm not even sure what the theme was in gen 4, to be honest.
I’m not sure if it’s fair to account for hidden abilities in this sort of judgement, considering by the time you start getting hidden ability starters (or ability patches) you’re most likely already in the post game, where “which of these three Pokémon will be the best to start the game with” stops being a question entirely
When it comes to the Kalos trio, the main thing that's caused unbalance between them in my opinion is popularity
Greninja excels in that aspect considering he has an amazing design, he had great anime representation, he was Pokemon Of the Year, and he was in Smash (I love using him there) whereas Delphox is severely disliked and Chestnaught isn't that great to some people either
Megas aren’t around these days, so are most the starters now that national dex isn’t ever coming back, so what’s the point lol
"Unbalanced starter trio" is a broad statement. Unbalanced in what sense? Unbalanced in competitive? Against each other? By fan popularity? Type effectiveness against each other? Abilities? Movepool? How useful they are in a playthrough? In their design and concept? I honestly don't know how to answer your question but I'll say Emboar is the most unbalanced I suppose.
I think mudkip is unbalanced, as he can take HALF the gym with ease. And the fact most grass can be countered by ice move he can easily learn(ice hail). Hes a walking fortress
We need to see a rock/fighting/flying hybrid starter trio. Those 3 iirc actually also have a rock paper scissors relationship with each other
Lol I just realized I’ve watched a large majority of your videos. Idk why I wasn’t already subscribed.
Beats me? It happens more than you'd think though; I've got at least 70 videos with more views than my current subscriber count, so apparently people just come back a lot but are afraid of commitment...
@@emperorcubone It’s kinda like a double edged sword with the algorithm. I see your videos often and like most of them, so I just assume I’m already subscribed. Honestly a little ridiculous you don’t have more subs, your videos are always good.
Johto for the Gator being an easy cruise control to win with ice fang basically dunking most of the game. Galar for saying the rabbit had libero pre launch cementing it as the objective best pick. Paldea for the grass cats signature being both weaker and not self boosting as well as the needless neutering of protean. And last Kanto for the lizard being the actual single most favored starter, with squatters rights in every region ever, being the center of attention in Galar over their own regional Pokémon, getting battle gimmicks that others aren't allowed as well as extra ones when everyone gets them, and for being the icon of peer pressure for the devs to keep slapping dragon on it instead of leaving it a dinosaur.
To me the balance is more about how it lines up against gyms and stat totals rather than balance against each other.
I get how that would influence your choice, but not really how that's "balance." Do they each have to be super effective against three of the 12 gym leaders or elite four members to be evenly balanced?
@@emperorcubone it’s balance based on single player main story rather than battling against other starters, something that rarely happens in the story.
They don’t have to be all good against equal numbers of gym leaders, but they all need one or two super effective and not have one that’s SE against way more than the others. So no chickorita stuff, and empolon becomes way too good when the ai is the one trying to counter. I’ve thought the last 2 gens were great!
Mudkip can literally beat its entire game without evolving
I definitely say Hoeen is pretty nicely balanced as all 3 are viable and powerful there is no "weak link" like what the Chikorita line is as far as gen 2 starters. Yes they all have mega evolutions, and all 3 of their megas are very powerful and viable in their own way, they is balanced pros and cons for each with mostly more pros and can't go wrong with either Hoeen starter
Well that's true if you are playing ORAS, if you play any of the GBA versions then Sceptile is easily a weak link thanks to all it's offensive moves having the power of 10, 20 or 40 until level 29 when it learns 70 power Leaf blade...
@@V-Jes gen 3 was also before the physical and special split, therefore all grass moves were special attack Including leaf blade and considered Sceptile has a higher special attack means it hit a harder leaf blade as well as if you taught It dragon claw thru tm as dragon was still special as well, along with like HP Ice and Perhaps giga drain you were set
@@V-Jes it was also able to leave pursuit via lvl up or crunch as a egg move in gen 3 another good coverage as dark was also special
Where as Swampert was only able to use it's ground stab for it's higher physical attack and it's water stab for special attack as it's special attack was mediocre. Blaziken has a higher physical attack as well but faired alittle better since it's special attack was not too far behind it's physical so was able to use it's special fire stab and physical fighting stab quite nicely
@@Weav576 End/Post game TM's and Egg moves are not a good example of it having good moves when you aren't getting those moves at all when you are doing the story run of the game, also Giga drain is just 60 Power and 5 PP in Gen 3 while 40 power Pursuit becomes just useless when neutral STAB Leaf blade deals more damage than a Super Effective Pursuit...
Hisuian Decidueye gets scrappy as its hidden ability so it can hit ghost types with both stabs
Gotta love how Meganium is the only starter considered outright bad
Kinda getting bored of seeing ghost, FIGHTING, dark as secondary types for starters. We need a new trio. Maybe water/electric, fire/flying and grass /ground. Not balanced all the way but it's something diff.
I feel like the newest trio is the strongest. As far as I know, each one is viable in OU, which I don't think has ever been the case for any other trio even in their debut generations. Meowscarade has Protean, which is always on good Pokémon by default. Quaquaval has Moxie and a move that boosts its speed along with access to swords dance so if you can play it right, it has great sweeping potential. Finally, Fuecoco has torch song to boost its special attack, also giving it a chance to snowball and sweep, along with slack off for longevity and Unaware to stay strong against other Pokémon boosting their stats.
in Ultra Sun?Moon, once they gave Incineroar Thunder Punch I was so happy
if we had access to hidden abilities in PLA, then HA/Scrappy Hisuian Decidueye could've hit Ghost-types neutrally
Love the idea, made for another fun video
Ghost being immune to two types is more than enough balance for not getting a new super effective move. Ignoring anything normal is insane.
Except Skeledirge is realistically gonna be the only one firing off any Normal moves with its Sound options; why would the other two even try Swift or Body Slam when it doesn't complement their other tools?
@@emperorcubone maybe I'm confused. Are you only considering the endgame here? I always find the ghost typing really helps in playthroughs, but truth be told I don't do a lot of PvP.
Personally I think the Treecko line should have ended being grass-dark type since, thanks to the anime, Grovyle had a student/good hearted delinquent vibe to him, think Yusuke from YuYu Hakusho, due to his attitude and the fact that him and Sceptile use leaf blades as their main moves just like the stereotypical delinquent students uses pocket knifes to fight.
Hmm, you usually hear Dragon, but I think Dark could actually work!
The reason I think they didn’t make sceptile grass dark was because hoenn already had two grass and dark type Pokémon it would have been redundant personally I would have liked to see grass poison
I always liked the fact Treecko remained pure grass. We also had two dark grass types in Hoenn in Shiftry and Cacturne, so it’s not like the type went unused
I'd say that Delphox' complete inability to do anything about Greninja is made up for by the fact that 3 gyms plus one of the Elite 4 become free sweeps to fire, and you get another free sweep from the secondary psychic as well.
There shouldn’t even be a debate it’s obviously gen 6 x and y
You can't actually get hidden abilities on your starter when you pick it up. In some gens you can maybe change it in the very late game, but for all practical purposes; when you pick a starter for your XY playthrough, the water-type option is a Torrent Greninja, not a Protean Greninja. It's still the best of its trio, but it's not like you'll struggle if you use Delphox.
I'd say gen 4 is the most unbalanced because Empoleon and Torterra are both slow. Relying on a mon that keeps getting outsped is the easiest way to get stuck and forced to item-spam. Good luck beating Cynthia's Garchomp with Empoleon without either being significantly overlevelled or bringing X-items. Meanwhile Infernape will brute-force everything with a few revives.
If you are talking about a main story playthrough then using Greninja is a much bigger struggle than Delphox because how OP Fire types are in Kalos...
@@V-Jes I’ll take your word for it. I remembered it being very easy with Gren, and estimated it would also be easy with Delph. But having never used Delph, estimated conservatively.
@lol101lol101lol10199 Delphox literally has higher stats on everything except Speed and Physical attack, learns better moves and has a type advantage for over half the Gyms in the game so it's "bit" easier time, with it's only real downside being that it doesn't learn good moves when it's a Braixen.
The Sinnoh starter trio is most unbalanced in my opinion. Infernape has STAB super-effective moves against both of the fully-evolved starters and comfortably out-speeds both of them. I don't think it's fair to take into account Greninja's hidden ability or alternate form since you don't get either at the start of the game. Also, while Meganium is the least efficient choice in Jhoto, I still enjoyed using it from time to time when I was younger. I never used the other Sinnoh starters as a kid. There's a reason the one team everyone picks in Sinnoh includes Infernape. It's so much better than the other starters and the barren pool of other available Fire-types. At least Meganium is cute and the best grass-type in Jhoto.
Sinnoh try to balance the statutes by giving Toterra ground to cover for infer ape and steel to resist Torterra but Empoleon get destroyed by Torterra's earthquake
Still hate greninja entirely because it makes people forget that delphox and chesnaught even exist. It doesn't help that they haven't been in a mainline game in a while until home gets added to scarlet and violet. And geez poor chesnaught atleast delphox got into unite where it's really good and braixen was in pokken where it was one of if not the best character in the game meanwhile chesnaught has gotten nothing
Chespin was immediately my favorite of the three, so I have very similar feelings on this...
With the rings around the eyes of Hisuian Decidueye at 7:56 and the tan leaf on its chest, it looks like Decidueye is always cartoonishly frowning.
Considering hidden abilities, I'm surprised the Gen 9 starters weren't mentioned in that regard. What is your opinion on that since they all seem to get busted abilities?
Well, if they're all busted, then that's still balanced, right? I mean it's way better than just ONE or even two getting hugely power tricks and not the others...
Funny enough, Protean is actually not highly used because of the huge nerf it got. Overgrow is more commonly used as an offensive ability because of Flower Trick.
Unaware and Moxie are still freaking insane.
I’d say kalos easily. Greninja seems distant from the other lines. Mainly thinking of popularity and representation. Also battle options
Plus his coverage is pretty good
Extrasensory deals with fighting or poison types
Acrobatics is stronger if there's no item and can give U a fighting chance against Chestnaught and other big types u face
And I think it can get a poison type move which really helps against fairy types
Plus Ice beam helps if you're taking on drasna in the league since some of her dragons are 4x weak to it
Kalos seems the most unbalanced on paper imo. Greninja FAR outclasses the other two.
as much as i like the charmander line, squirtle was the busted starter of gen1.
it learns ice moves that are super-effective against both venusaur and charizard (blizzard was 90% accurate in gen 1) and can deal hit every gym leader except misty and sabrina with super effective moves
brock: has bubble
misty: resists bubblebeam
surge: learns dig
erika: learns ice beam
koga: earthquake
blaine, giovanni: surf
Problem is that it's basically one shot by Erika and Surge plus spending all your money for a single move to help your starter dosen't really make it the best. Blastoise also does the worst out of the starters against Lance and the Champion
@@sibernout7717 agreed, squirtle will take massive damage from erika and surge (assuming it isn't overlevelled) 🍃⚡
however the fresh water you trade to get ice beam in gen 1 costs the same as 2 pokeballs, and you get dig for free, getting both tms shouldn't be too hard on your wallet 💸
how exactly does blastoise do worse against lance and the champion than venusaur or charizard?
aside from gyarados and alakazam, blastoise can hit the rest of lance and blue's teams with super effective moves.
charizard and venusaur have nowhere near that much coverage in gen 1
Let's not forget that it gets Bubblebeam right after Misty who wont use water gun/bubblebeam even when they're better than tackle because of good AI. Getting a 65 power STAB move while the other two are stuck with 35 power Vine Whip and 40 power Ember for quite a while gives it a really nice early-mid game advantage.
Johto is far more balanced than Galar. Libero Scorbunny definitely changes that balance. It's not a problem from your actual choice, since they have Blaze when you pick them.
True, it is a special ability, but we all know Meganium should have been given Fairy...
@@emperorcubone especially after Pokemon Snap giving it that Lumiose form? Absolutely fairy.
Also, the Libero argument definitely applies to Meowscarada and Greninja as well for Protean. Still Hidden abilities, and not "starters," but... definitely makes them unequal, when you consider coverage moves.
@@emperorcubone Agreed with Meganium. It would do much better in a Johto Remake, helping take out Chuck, Claire, Karen's Dark types, and Bruno's Fighting types. Yes I am aware that it will struggle with the first two gyms but you can obviously catch other PokeMon to take care of those 2 gyms.
In favoritism, the Kantoan ones- but that's more in treatment. I never liked how Charizard had two megas a n d a non-DLC Gigamax. But that's more about favoritism messing up balance.
Not Charizard 's fault he is a fan favorite
And the other two still got something
At least the other kanto starters still have powerups. Kalos' on the other hand....
@@whatdafu...boooooom1864 has Ash-Greninja
Can we also talk about the fact, greninja cna learn aerial ace which is 4x effective to chesnaught?
I guess greninja just beats up its friends
Out off all the games, meganium is the only poke I never use. Its just outclassed in every capacity
maybe you could also do a video on the most (un)balanced pairing of other pokemon. like legendary couples or trios. some of them are really wack, like Entei being weak to suicune, and suicune being weak to Raikou, but Raikou has no weakness to fire.
Did one about Legendary Trios like you're talking about, maybe two years ago now. Should be linked at the end of the video...
Holy crow I’m third today! Good morning Early Squad! Can’t wait to see which Trio is dubbed Wonkiest of All 😆😆😆
Thanks for the new video Emperor Cubone and go hug your furbabies all 💙🐱💙
Its absolutely, unequivocally, the Kalos trio
Greninja already had no business having such absurd coverage like *Ice Beam* which was bolstered by the balancing garbage that was pre nerf Protean, only to the then be given a free Mega Evolution Ability because Gamefreak couldn't stop slurping the dirt under Charizard nutsack and give the Kalos starters actual Megas so the anime team had to make something up for Ash's ace ninja frog back in XYZ because he was simply THAT cool apparently.
There's a reason that Pikachu specifically got a slice of the gimmick pie in the next generations.
I'm so glad it got nerfed into oblivion in Scarlet & Violet and I don't care how petty it is to say that (I know its not Greninja's fault but man); Delphox and especially Chesnaught deserved far better.
They did give Protean to Meowscarada too, but Meowscarada could already beat Skeledirge regardless thanks to Dark STAB, and your Grass STAB is already good against Quaquaval. (Plus Meowscarada's movepool to abuse Protean is much more limited compared to Greninja)
It really is insane how much TPCi/GF rode hard on Greninja and left Delphox/Chesnaught to the dust. They even were petty enough to give the Pokken slot to Braixen over Delphox!
Whatever your opinion is about Greninja, the gen 9 Protean nerf has got to be the WORST decision they’ve made it terms of nerfs so far. They even had the audacity to put it on a new starter too.
@YoshiBlade75 Zamazenta quite literally has no ability anymore due to Zacian's shenanigans.
You can dislike the change, I understand why people do, but the pitiful existence of the Shield Dog is still the worst Gamefreak design in recent memory.
Protean went from objective S-Tier unfun garbage (can you guess that I didn't like this ability) of playing Wheres Waldo with Greninja and Cinderace's typing to a solid yet still very applicable and powerful niche ability. If Pokémon were a 1v1 game, I would be inclined to agree.
The only one who doesn't want it is Meowscarada, since it isn't worth losing STAB Knock Off or Flower Trick when you need it.
The Battle Bond nerf is far worse, in my opinion, since it wasn't even given the courtesy of abilities like or Beast Boost and was given the dreaded once-per-match treatment. The Home update might change that, though.
In hindsight I think perhaps the reason the Kanto starters got mega evolutions instead of the Kalos ones is because they knew Greninja was going to get special treatment.
That was also the generation where they outright buffed older mons because they were falling behind after all, and the main point of the mechanic at the time was also just that. No gen 6 mons got them, it wasn't just the starters.
And of course without it there would be no Charizard X vs Ash Greninja in the anime either, two of the most popular Pokemon going at it with powered up forms obviously wouldn't have been Game Freak's idea even if it might be right up their alley.
The sinnoh trio is actually the most unbalanced because Infernape is the fastest of the three and his stab moves can hit both Torterra and Empoleon supereffective
and it also doesn't help that he can be played as a hybrid attacker
also in gen5 he was the only one of the trio to get a good hidden ability
Eh, I know it's fast, but the Defenses of the other ones are not too shabby, so with the right investment or focus sash they're gonna be able to one-shot the much more fragile monkey...
@@emperorcubone Yeah... but shouldn't that same argument be used for Greninja as well then... its a glass cannon, so even with protean it dies to a neutral hit.
@@emperorcuboneI literally can imagine that one meme with those three pirates pointing guns at one another but with Infernape, Torterra and Empoleon since their types overlap with one another. Torterra can take out both Infernape and Empoleon with Earthquake, Infernape can hit Torterra with Fire Moves and Empoleon with Fighting Moves, and Empoleon can hit Infernape with Water Moves and probably Ice Beam with Torterra
@@emperorcubone Except i don't know anyone that uses a Torterrra with Focus sash instead of Leftovers
Infernape is so versatile it beats Empoleon and torterra in most scenarios
Infernape knows fake out so Empoleon with focus sash is useless against it
Pokémon yellow
Pikachu is a way stronger starter than the other options
I mean why would you go for Pikachu when Pikachu is just the same thing but better
and that's no including the abomination against usability that is Pikachu
Yeah, it really hurt Pikachu that it couldn't even evolve, so going with Pikachu is much better...
I think this is an interesting way to rank starters based on how they directly interact with each other. It becomes a lot more theoretical because for the most part this type of interaction would never happen outside of lore. In terms of gameplay, most people will just pick their favourites and generally this is looks/vibes based, which i think is very balanced across all regions.
The other way to grade it is how the starters do in their respective games instead of their starter trio matchups. Having looked into before, the most unbalanced trio game wise is Johtos starters. Because the typings of major battles are whatever are left over from the kanto games (all gym types are the remaining ones), it throws what was very good balance in the first generation out the window, and all of grass’ bad matchups are in one game. Meganium goes -4 on major battles, one of the very few starters to go negative, whilst typhlosion has it easy.
Comparatively, the most balanced starters is hard to pick as almost all the games are very even. Galar is even in making the starters hard to use in the second half of the game, Alola is even overall, Kalos is balanced by making the marginally best starter the weakest Pokemon (delphox), Unova is equal again in giving the starters little to do, Sinnoh is very balanced, but biased in both the amount of water HMs and the lack of accessible fire types when you really want fire types, and lastly Kanto is very balanced too, if slightly out of favour for charizard.
Hoenn by my research is also unbalanced, because nothing in the game is able to beat a swampert (there are three notable grass type trainers in the game, May’s grovyle, Sidneys shiftry and a random Roselia trainer. As far as I know no one else has one). I would also argue that Hoenn has the most balanced starters in terms of appeal next to kanto but thats obviously debatable.
Bro what the heck is that thumbnail
And finally you uploaded a good video
I think the genuine mishandled problem with Decidueye is that the stat distribution giving both of its forms severe case of identity crisis, its too slow to properly capitalize on its strengths, having just enough speed to be faster then its Alolan starter counterparts. If Decidueye had more base speed then special attack then it would've had enough ground to stand out of its own instead of almost sharing the exact same stat spread as every other grass/ghost types, just for the sole purpose so that it could be fielded with a scarce but potent set of special attack moves which overall felt contrary to its design... This is genuinely sad because this Owl Ranger was THE fan favorite design for the Alolan region starters and it feels like it was deliberately given the "Charizard" treatment to keep it grounded, it has a very cool design but is restrained by its horrible stats...
I think it's fun that Maskarada has protein so now in S&V you can have a whole team of starters with protein
Not to mention it basically outmatched greninja due to being faster than it
I think if we include Greninjas Protean we should also include Cinderace’s Libero. The movepool of Inteleon doesn’t have much to do against a Cinderace that changes to Electric type, and even struggles against a Fighting or Grass type switch. Rillaboom ofc just gets destroyed even harder sadly, especially when Inteleon has Flying, Bug, and Ice type coverage
Also Cinderace learns trailbraze
idk if you take video suggestions but could you do a "Top _ pokemon that should get a middle evolution"?
Hmm, that could be interesting. There are some pretty big jumps, like Shroomish to Breloom or Bergmite to Avalugg...
Before watching videoand off the top of my head I want to say gen 6.
Greninja was just so much better than the other 2 with its ability to change types, and new mega like form.
And typically I usually consider 💧 and 🔥 to be better than grass for the most part with more things going against grass offensive and defensive it's usually the 2nd type that carries it or drops it down more.
I want to say gen 4 had to most balance.
ll 3 have a stab to hit the other 2 super effective expect Emploeon with Torterra but water always get ice moves and although it's not stab it'd 4x to Torterra which makes up for it
*thinks of some fricked up types trios during a lecture a few hours ago*
"How bout a grass/steel, fire/ice, and water/rock trio, named Kassowarrior, Blastfrayz, and Armineroll?"
Ah, but you see Venusaur DOES get a rock move. When weather ball is used in Sandstorm, it becomes rock!!
Yeah okay. Now have Venusaur set up the sand...
We all knew it was Gen 6 before watching. Let's be real.
I really hope whatever next Legends Game has Meganium with a viable new form
I always wondered why blastoise isn't water steel type i mean it stays the only kanto starter that doesn't get a second typing in its final stage.and seriously blastoise has STEEL canons so why isn't it steel type?
I think the main reason is due to Venusaur's dual disadvantage to Steel.
Blastoise could resist Grass moves and counter him with Steel STAB moves thanks to Poison weakness.
If we’re mentioning the kanto megas it’s worth pointing out mega venusaur gets the thick fat ability, meaning it only takes neutral damage from Charizards fire type, as well as the ice type which would be the obvious choice for blastoise to counter venusaur
If you're looking at abilities, what about speed boost (mega) Blaziken?
From the kalos trio greninja is the only good starter in competetive.
It has 2 good abilitys with one giving a second mega.
Not to mention it's the only good starter of the three in terms of design and popularity
You know once just once I would like to see a starter trio thats not fire, water, and grass but instead something else.
If you're going to mention the Proteon and Libera Abilities, don't forget that Terrastalization in general throws out all the type comparisons in Gen 9.
Does being weak to both of another starter's types rater than just one of their types really matter, since you can't use multiple attacks at once? As such, I see no balance issues where one or two have a weakness to both types and the other(s) only has/have a weakness to a single type. For example, it doesn't matter that Decidueye is weak to both of Incineroar's types, while the other two only have a single type weakness. (The rest of your points about that trio still stand, though.)
I have the feeling still that somewhere in development Incineroar was fighting type until someone (thankfully) said "Nope Nope, not again", because type matchup would make more sense.
As now they are balanced in the way that no secondary type hits the other one supereffectively
My prediction at the start, Sinnoh is the most unbalanced base wise, Infernape beats Empoleon's Steel type with its fighting, and then Torterra's grass with its fire, and Torterra hits both for super effective with ground, and Empoleon hits Infernape super effective, and Torterra for neutral.
Edit, Cubone, you make a good point with them all hitting each other and countering each other, cue 3 way Spiderman meme
Interesting because I, like most people my age 18+ at release of D/P/Pl, chose not to have a starter in gen 4. Ironically common during that time.
Do most people not know that the reason that most fire starters are fighting type is to circumvent their rock weakness which is a very common early gym leader type. I came to that revelation one day long ago and it baffled me that people don't know.
How many triangles are there because it might be good for Pokémon to move away from grass, fire, water.
Flying, Rock, Fighting?
I can’t think of another…
Honestly the only trios that are unbalanced in my opinion are Kalos and Jhoto. In Jhoto Cindaquill is just objectively the best against the set of gym leaders.
Like you pointed out in Kalos gre ninja and it’s movepool and abilities are just too OP
I remember when starters were tough choices, now I just box them immediately in newer games. Mostly because I don't like the evolutions/designs.
The issue with the Sinnoh Starters (and by this I mean Empoleon getting the short straw) is that Torterra and Infernape have STAB options to counter the other two, Empoleon does not. Sure it can Ice Beam a Torterra for x4 damage, but it's not going to be a guaranteed one shot if you're even slightly underleveled. I did a Nuzlocke in Platinum using Empoleon. Barry's Torterra *survived* an Ice Beam and I was only like 2 levels lower. The following Earthquake scared the crap out of me, but he survived that. STAB isn't always the answer, but it can be a very helpful factor.
Yeah, well the answer there is use Avalanche; it doubles in power after taking the hit you survived...
@@emperorcubone does avalanche give a negative priority? Can't remember. Even if it does, that's still a powerful STAB move you're hoping you'll survive, in a Nuzlocke :P
Fire🔥/water💧, grass🍃/fire🔥, and water💧/grass🍃.
There is the starters types there should be in a generation. The designs they could make from that would be epic.
Is First Partner or Starter Pokémon the official term for these Pokémon?
Honestly I don't think there's an "official" term for most any Pokemon category, except maybe Legendary. All the rest has just been used by fans for so long that's what everybody calls them...
@@emperorcubone Hm…?
You forgot yellow was the only version that didn't have three starters
I want to bring up a minor correction on the Sinnoh analysis. Emploeon has an option that can overpower both Infernape and Torterra. Emploeon learns the Flying-type moves Peck and Drill Peck, which are super effective against Fighting (Infernape), Ground (Torterra), and Grass (again, Torterra).
While Flying is immune to Ground it is not super effective against it, but yes; if anyone thought TMs for Ice moves were somehow cheating Empoleon gets Flying attacks by levelup...
I would say Gen 1 in terms of popularity and Gen 4 in terms of starter interactions. In both cases, it's the fire type that's the best and the water type that's the worst.
I think kalos galar and sinnoh have the right way of balance: each starter can battle and or beat the others even if the secondary type may make one weak to the other two (like empoleon), their main typing still handles them or coverage helps immensely (empoleon ice move and water move solved the infernape torterra issue), greninja also is only
Unbalanced if you got a hidden ability which is easier said than done and definitely not in the main game so that trio is very well balanced with each type handling the other.
The most unbalanced for how they perform in game has to be gen 2: grass is my second favourite type for its huge supportive help but oh my
God johto is the worst grass has ever been treated: so many weaknesses to gyms and poison bug and flying types everywhere with very few ground water and rock types to face makes chikorita the least useful starter by a country mile. Totodile is ok but not that many fire ground or rock types either but steel bug grass and ice are all plentiful enough in johto where cyndaquil easily dominates.
But for typing? I’d say the least balanced is probably gen 7 just because Primarina having fairy type only benefits and doesn’t help incineroar at all while decidueye is only using it’s grass type as ghost doesn’t help for the other 2 starters. Instead a grass fighting and water fairy would have solved this issue giving Primarina more to do with its fairy type decidueye more to handle grass and incineroar still wrecking decidueye but neutral to fairy but still weak to water.