Testing how Waterproof GoreTex Hoka Kaha 2 are
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- Testing how Waterproof GoreTex Hoka Kaha 2 are
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Hey Mark! Oklahoma viewer here, and I have to say the water test you performed is what I do every time I get a new pair of Gore-Tex shoes or boots. I've found that it's not the Gore-Tex membrane itself (sound technology), but the manufacturing process of the shoes or garment that compromise it. I've sent back numerous iterations of the same boot for failing that test, and have warranted others for that reason. Many different shoe brands, even high-dollar Simms wading jackets have failed in certain areas, and it looks like you got a bum pair of Hoka boots. I have recently SUCCESSFULLY tested and use Scarpa Kailash Trek GTX boots and lighter La Sportiva Ultra Raptor II GTX, for what it's worth.
Thanks for the input! I am actually planning on doing this as soon as I figure out what the next pair is, these ones certainly didn't perform up to expectation!
I've never had a pair of Scarpa or Lowa boots do this unless they were old and the membrane was visibly damaged. Goretex boots are not created equal as some manufacturers will make sure the lining is a single bootie (more expensive) and has few outer material seams where the lining could be damaged. I remember when I used to wear Merrell years ago and they would leak due to using seam sealed pieces of goretex where the seams always wore out within a year.
Sometimes there's a dud pair of well designed boots and the lining is punctured during manufacturing. Salewa had a model of boots a few years back where the manufacturing process seemed to damage many linings. I reckon it was do with the seams of the shoe and the way the lining was stitched in because they fixed it the following year.
Goretex works in the sense that the holes are too small to allow water droplets in. That's a fact of physics. What it doesn't do is breathe well enough in some environments or avoid abrasion damage. But the most common issue is design and or manufacturing flaws.
The original Hoka Kaha were used with an eVent liner. I've had that shoe for 3 years (original not the Goretex), and it's literally NEVER failed to keep my feet dry.
Hi Mark, great review and ties in with my own experiences with Gortex (and other waterproofing).
Maybe the problem is you are trying to keep your feet dry!
A Swiss mountain guide I knew, who had climbed Mt Mckinley many times , always wore his "Mckinley System".
1. He baby powdered his feet.
2. Next he wore Nylon stockings.
3. Then soft thick plastic bags. (as used by butchers for freezing meat.)
4. Lastly thick woolen socks.
And of course his boots, depending on his trip - skiing. trecking, mountaineering etc.
But always his Mckinley system.
As your feet sweat they get wet. After a short time because the sweat cant get out your feet stop sweating.
The wool keeps you warm even if it does get wet, (in extreme cold it stays dry).
Even after days on Mckinley his feet didnt smell because they were more or less sealed and no bacteria/air got in.
Give it a try, hope it works for you.
You're a dude. You're the first person I've seen mention that blister problem, at the heel cup. I suffered with exactly the same with the Hoka Speedgoat Mid 2's. I've never blistered there in any other boot. I ended up cutting away the cupped part of the footbed, leaving just a flat section under my heel. That fixed the problem. I believe the real cause of the problem, for me at least, is that I'm not able to effectively lock my heel into the boot. The lacing system, I just can't find a combination of eyelet's and lacing patterns that help synch the heel back and down. My guess is that the footbed you installed has just lifted your heel that extra 1mm or 2mm, so that you're more effectively and easily able to lock into it. Anyway. I'm sorry it caused you discomfort but you've made me feel happier it's not just me, so thanks for mentioning it.
No worries, I keep it as real as I can!
I have the Hoka Kaha 1 boots. I did recently hiked the Grand Canyon which varied from frozen to slushy deep snow, lots of post holing, for hours (with full OR gaiters on) and my feet stayed completely dry. However on Mt. St. Helens with endless snow and rain one foot started getting wet. It very well may have been snow/rain getting in thru and behind gaiter since we also did thousands of feet in glissading down. I'm not 100% convinced they're water proof... but decently water resistant.
Interesting, these ones were obviously not waterproof!
From my experience goretex is just a membrane that gives additional property to layer beneath. If the whole product rely only on goretex it’s maybe like for a light drizzle or a running shoe and running thru some puddles . I have modern military boots that are made for army which are like 200€ and those are the real stuff , we talking mud , tongue Sewed basically to the top , fully tested boots with pressure chambers and then added gore tex on top of it. But since goretex is included , there’s almost zero breathing of your foot , as it’s not possible to have both gore tex and breathing shoe . So for the real deal I would suggest real deal modern army boots either hi or mid which are like the most versatile all year boot you can buy . As for the winter boot I personally bought UGG butte and I can’t believe how much I like them , it’s just really simple boot , old school leather and wool and the way how they feel on your feet is almost walking in the slippers . Not for huge water crossing , but as far as snow and rain all day I’ve tested them myself in a -22c and heavy wool socks and I got by for hours ( but my face did not 😃 ) so I would buy those . I’ve used to have some Nike shoes before and while they kept warm , but they slipped on ice or snow like crazy . These UGG got vibram sole , which even in some ice and tile floor hold it’s own , 100% recommend those . Like I’ve said it’s far from these boots , but it’s like insane wool slippers, no problems with sweat and membrane , leather does all the work , so even when it’s post winter , but rainy and everything I’m taking them just for how slipper like they are and I’m confident that I will be warm , got traction , comfort and dry. So if I can take one shoes only and get out of my house not knowing where and what’s gonna happen I’ll take my modern combat shoes and zombies can chase me , and if it’s casual winter colder walking back and forth with smile , I’ll take UGGs
I got off the goretex wagon a while ago. But I don't blame the fabric. I blame the sealing where the molded parts meet the fabric. That's always the weakest part. It's also where I expect the most wear on the membrane will take place.
I also am starting to become more aware of how bad Goretex and DWR is for the environment. Those chemicals are known as forever chemicals or PFAS (per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances) and PFOS (perfluoro-octane sulfonic acid).
It's one of the reasons I am looking at wool and alpaca again. Wool is naturally water resistant and will keep you warm even when wet.
Wool has always been a great choice!
I have found that footwear with GoreTex, or other waterproof shoe liners, work best with a leather or nubuck outer. I have simply never had much success with footwear with a waterproof membrane and synthetic outers, but ones with an all leather or nubuck outer worked well, though of course there is the weight penalty.
Near the end of this season I started experimenting with water proof socks in my Altra Lone Peaks 6s since I plan on doing a lot more miles this year, including this fall and winter. The ones I used were three layer socks, a nylon outer, a water proof mid-layer and then either a CoolMax or Merino next to skin layer (2 different brands.)
This past weekend North Central PA got some snow and sleet. My Brother-in-law and I went for a couple hours on the West Rim Trail (PA Grand Canyon) since our families had rented a cabin. My feet got a little cold with the CoolMax ones naturally, but my feet stayed dry. Lesson learned in winter bring the ones with Merino wool instead of Cool Max dumba$$.
My Brother-in-law however had wet feet through with his boots They use a hybrid nubuck and Condora Nylon upper. When I felt the inside of his boot, when we got back to the cabin, (for science) it seemed like the water came through where the Condora was and and not the nubuck.
I made my waterproof sock selections off of an article that focused on marathon trail running since I couldn't find any really detailed backpacking sources. One of the companies even makes them with different weights of Merino wool, so I may lean in that direction of I am going to be backpacking vs basecamping in winter in the future.
Can you tell me what brand the waterproof socks with merino wool are?
With Condora nylon upper, ¿are you meaning Cordura®?
@@SpiguyverBackpacking1 sorry, I just saw this. They are by a company called Bridgedale, I think they are British
@@raulferia1516 yes
My experience is that Goretex per se is waterproof, but especially in boots it doesn't really work. The biggest problem are the seams, which puncture the membrane with every stitch and which are really hard to seal. Additionally, the constant movement during walking puts stress on the membrane and the seam sealing, which causes it to wear down and break after a while. For winter hiking I've used traditional full leather boots for 30 years. They can be waterproofed with wax (I use the Nikwax leatherwax) and they work great. No boot is fully waterproof and will wet out eventually, but in my experience the waxed leather holds up the longest.
Unfortunately I am trying to stay away from the heavier leather boots, for whatever reason I have ALWAYS had blister issues with real boots.
@Spiguyver Backpacking they are like leather bike saddles. They need some time to break in, but after that they fit like a glove. I've had my current pair since 2006. The manufacturer offers to replace not only the soles but the entire lower part of the boot at a pretty good price. I've had that done a couple of times yet and the boots still hold up great. Not planning on getting new ones any time soon (however, during the summer and outside alpine regions I've switched to team trail runner).
@@SpiguyverBackpacking1 No issues with the Meindl Tauern GTX boots (using gaiters in deep snow, like up to middle or above) but they'd probably fall into your "heavy leather boots" category.
IMO Jack Wolfskin's Texapore is better than Goretex, holding out water better over the years, and especially in creases in garments
Good luck on your search. I have a pair of North Face Gortex mid height which don’t seem to leak from the outside but my feet sweat and they hold the moisture.
Yeah that's always the problem people complain about, it's a lot like rain gear, you either get wet from the rain, or you get wet from sweating when you wear rain gear!
I have a La Sportiva Trango with GoreTex that has never leaked.
I am now experimenting with Caterpillar Alaska work boots- the not waterproof 6 inch version, seam sealed then treated with bees wax for waterproofing. This has withstood 10minutes of testing submerged in about 2 inches of water.
I will be taking the Catepillar to one week of hiking and snow shoe.
Had very good luck with the Altra Lone Peak ALL-WTHR Shoe with wide toe box. Good luck with your search.
That's what Rainman was wearing on this last trip and he wasn't a fan, he loves the normal Lone Peaks, that's all he wears, but didn't like the fit of the All Weather. Are they sized different?
@@SpiguyverBackpacking1 definitely ran smaller, hated the lacing system, and spoiler alert, also wet the whole time lol. In the long run I didnt HATE the shoe, but i wouldnt buy it again to use as a winter hiking shoe, personally
My only question is that because they are not laced, could they possibly not be sealing at the lace area and allowing water to seep in at the lower tongue?
Hi Mark. Agree with your assessment of Goretex clothing, or should that be 'boil-in-a-bag' clothing! Anyway, regarding GTX lined boots, I've never had wet feet using La Sportiva GTX lined boots and I'm in the UK where the mountain terrain is wet believe you me. I've hiked my way through 8 pairs of La Sportiva boots and never been let down although I'm talking about 3-4 season boots, not the lightweight versions you're talking about here.
LOL, bool in a bag is a great categorization of it! Love that! Still looking, I’ll probably check out the La Sportivas.
Salomon Quests worked great for me in a typhoon. Feet were absolutely dry.
Possibly could be the seams. Thinking back I had a pair of Wolverine goretex lined "not hiking" boots that were waterproof. Actually they might be my favorite pair of boots or shoes I've ever had in my life. I never did any long hikes in them but I did wear them almost every day and especially when I was out in snow or cold soppy conditions. They never leaked. I think this fall I might try to find another pair of them boots. I'll just stick to my trail runners for the trail. Have you ever tried the waterproof socks? I've always wanted to try those.
I actually think I have a pair of Wolverine work boots that are lined and have actually performed well also. So Rainman brought some Sealskinz out on this trip and after putting them on, each of us agreed they were not something we would use. They were very sloppy feeling, and felt like a poor fitting diaper, plus the material felt bad against my skin.
Goretex does not work for me either. My feet get soaked from sweat and condensation. I now wear Steger Mukluks and have been super happy. They have a model for winter expeditions. I realize they may not be your style, but damn they work well!
I broke through the ice recently and my foot didn’t get wet inside. I have not worn them in rain though.
Thanks, for certain conditions I would consider Mukluks, they are certainly warm!
i always look for non-gtx boots as my feet get wet one way or the other (sweat or ingress) and it takes much longer to dry with goretex.
i've moved to waterproof socks under woolen ones, and boots that i can dry out o/night.
just my 20c worth....
Others have mentioned waterproof socks, but some have complained about the feel of those socks.
I thought you were going to pour coffee on your shoe for a second there haha. Curious where you end up. I want to try to hit the snow more this year.
Maybe the coffee would have energized the goretex and it would have worked...
Sugar free please
Thanks a lot for reaffirming what i found out from my Kaha2 Low! I never cared to do any experiment and i simply believed that Goretex would keep out water!!! Since the pair of shoes came from China, i thought I had been ripped off with a Fake Hoka, Kaha2 Low!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂😂
I'm no expert on the matter but I would presume that if the Gore-tex membrane itself if well seamed that the boot will be watertight. Where I think there is still a problem is if someone like me sweats a good amount from their feet, the leather being soaked from walking in snow or rain will not let the Gore-tex perform like it should by letting the humidity out as it is sealed in from the leather not breathing. That in itself would be one issue aside from the one you had.
I've had numerous work boots that are Gore-tex lined which have been through hell like standing in water half way up the boot for hours with no issue aside from my sweat staying in the boot. Maybe the workboot making process is less complicated than the hiking boot making process. Complexity might make for more missed seams.
But if they should be watertight and they are not, they need to be sent back like you said.
Yeah, the new ones I got hold out the water as they are expected to!
The company's website says they're made with "GORE-TEX footwear fabric with recycled textile". Wonder if that's the problem. Never had a problem with original GORE-TEX boots
Yeah, I don't know. What I do know is that it didn't work!!!
holy smokes, that has to be the manufacturer
I am hoping that it's some defect in this pair, but it's both shoes, not just one of them. It's bad, that is a lot of water to have come in after 1 hour.
I don't trust Gore-Tex boots any more. In mid 20* backpacking last spring I had good results with Seal Skinz waterproof socks. My trail runners got wet but feet were warm and toasty. For dead of winter hiking I'd still look for an insulated boot of some type. I've had good results with a pair of Vasque, but still freeze over night. Picked up Baffin Yoho for this season, on there only trip they performed well, but they are bulky...
I may just go with what already works for me and incorporate some vapor barriers. Might be the best thing I can do.
Just a consideration: it could be the quality of construction and not a GoreTex failure. I highly doubt that the GoreTex liner is a single uncut piece of material, so the leaks could be coming from any seams that might exist. In any case, have you sent Hoka a link to this video? I would be curious to see what their response is. At a minimum I would hope they would send out a replacement set of boots.
I actually purchased them from REI so that I could return them if I wasn't happy with them. Footwear is a very personal choice, what works great for one person may suck for another. I am on the search for the right winter/wet hiking shoes for me. These were most likely a defect, I've never seen any waterproof membrane actually wet out and fail that badly in such a short period of time.
@@SpiguyverBackpacking1 I would be interested in seeing you water-test the same exact hoka boots but using a brand new pair. If you made that video, that would be bad ass.
@@nogoogle6349 So I got a new pair of Hoka's that are also GTX and did this exact test, an hour later they were completely dry.
Bummer these didn't work out for you. I'd echo that gtx works and it's the manufacturing that can compromise it. I've had good success with the La Sportiva Nucleo high II gtx (REI). Winter footwear is tricky. Good luck with your search.
Thanks, the search will go on!
Let me know what waterproof boot you eventually found... I, also, have bought 3 pairs and returned them too. Waterproof is my main requirement. Then also needs to be good on rough trails, scrambling and some running
I ended up going with the newer Speedgoat GTX. Not perfect, but they've been better than most I've tried. Not sure there is a perfect solution.
I've actually bought Hoka Kaha 2. I'm quite in love. And also hanwag ferrata 2 for the winter... not sure if these are too solid in the sole though
Plain old Trail Runners over 1,00’s miles in dry snow- NP.
Plain old Trail Runners with WP Socks in wet snow conditions- NP!
Good luck.
I'm very much leaning back in this direction, but probably a vapor barrier over a WP sock.
I remember couple of years ago you reviewd minimalist merrels vapor glove and vivo....are you back into conventional maximalist narrow shoes?) Hoka is very tapered...lol
I would probably still be rocking Merrell Trail Gloves, but they fall apart in like 100 miles. They just aren't very durable. The other reason was trying to find something to relieve knee pain, and the Hokas have been doing a good job of that.
WOW !! I was originally going to say I hate gear videos…just to be a jerk.. but WOW ! One hour in…crazy. I’m looking for the same thing in a boot, I’ll just wait till you find them for us. LOL
Rick
Not waterproof!!! LOL
my solomans have never leaked until a burn a hole in them lol
I use the ultra x 4. I liked the 3s way better, but I've burned up a bunch of pairs, and the shoes have never leaked, then run narrow but the 4s now come in a wide.
Yeah, burning holes is a reason for them to leak, this was not good!
@Spiguyver Backpacking its a problem that has haunted me for 20 years lol...I even have to carry extra laces from burning them in half so many times. I use my feet to tend the fire.
With your boiling coffee?
I’ve never experienced anything more annoying than someone stopping their review to take a noisy slurp and gulp of coffee!
Let the man drink
@@ryanm4031 He can drink on his own damn time.
Thanks for the feedback.
This is his own damn time
Lmao! It didn’t bother me, but I can see how it could be annoying. Nice review bro.
Outdoor gear lab said the waterproofing on these boots are really good, that sucks.
Respray mine with scotchguard.
you definitely need to check out the adidas terrex cld.rdy free hiker. I've been using them for 2 winters now at work (retail cart attendant) they are super comfy, kept my feet warm no matter what temp, even -30F windchill, and I have never had wet feet in them and they have gore-tex. I average about 9 miles a day at work so the fact that they have held up for 2 years now with a ton of abuse pushing carts means they should hold up for you.
I'll see what I can try out
I've never been a goretex fan really don't understand the hype have had boot and gloves both got wet maybe if it's briefly but constant contact does not work
Exactly, short stints they hold up well, but as I showed after an hour that was a complete fail!
That's not right, maybe the stitching?
There are different grades of goretex. I've got a French army full goretex jacket and pants and they are the mutt's nuts. UK army bivvy bag, been good too. An old pair of Mammut mid boots (or which ever company it was before the take over), the rivets corroded through. Just before I binned them I filled with water and they didn't leak. Only other shoes I've had has been Solomon's lows. These were ok, way to hot in the summer and didn't test them like you did, I didn't think they was worth it. I have used goretex socks before on a few 5 mile hike wild camps and I can't remember which way didn't give blisters, under or over normal socks. So just ended up carrying them in case. Also this was over 10 years ago so might be worth revisiting.
Rainman had a pair of seal skinz waterproof socks with him on this last trip. No way could I wear those against my skin, they were not nice feeling.
@@SpiguyverBackpacking1 I knew you was going to say that, some people have more feet problems then others hey.
Of course if you’re standing still in water for long periods of time ur gonna get wet.
Go Blue! 23 years and going! Thanks for your service bro!
He drank way too many times and it started to annoy me 😂😂
How do you return shoes with so much mileage on them? Especially when you’re making money via RUclips for reviewing them…I don’t get it.
Goretex guarantee products are waterproof so long as the product is not abused. You can send them a leaking jacket, pants or shoes for inspection and they will replace /refund if they find the leak was down to a manufacturing issue and not wearer abuse. I've had North Face jackets, Salewa shoes and various other products replaced over the years. When there's a quality control issue, Gore works with the manufacturer to address it. They're trying to make products that are within-reason durably waterproof. So when GTX doesn't work, ask for a refund.
I thought we were going to get real scientific... until we used water as a weight in water
I'm not sure that there is a waterproof solution for the exertion and endurance requirements of a backpacking boot. Gore-Tex itself only works under a very controlled set of parameters, temperature differences of 20 degrees, certain humidity, clean dry prepared outer surface (impossible where you are hiking). Even within those parameters, the waterproof properties can be easily overwhelmed by days of wet snow or continuous rain. The breathable properties just aren't a reality when challenged with the exertion levels over any period of time, especially days. I've always found a well-made boot to work well, dry out quicker, and last longer. I've had the same experience with rain gear. A completely waterproof coat with well-designed pit-zips and ventilation is no less breathable than a much more expensive waterproof breathable garment and will remain waterproof when you need it the most. To your military example, the outdoor gear manufacturers make their money on the 90% of the market that will only be outdoors for an hour or less. The reality of backpacking is that you are going to get wet, how that is managed is the challenge. For me, decent socks, a pair of waterproof socks for short jaunts through icy water and snow, and most importantly - sufficient space in my boot or shoe makes the difference in cold wet weather.
You’re probably right!
Waterproof hiking shoes are the biggest scam in the outdoor industry. You're much better off with a pair of waterproof socks, like SealSkinz or Showers Pass, and a shoe that drains well. You may even want to try a pair of Darn Toughs under the waterproof socks, too. In snowy conditions/snowshoeing, Mukluks seem to be the way to go.
Thanks, I may go that route for next winter!
That's why anyone walking the trails should stick to a PROPER pair of walking boots. I wear Hanwag leather boots and they are SUBLIME and 100% waterproof, i have never had any water in the boots. After 2/3 walks to wear them in, they are the most comfortable and supportive footwear money can buy, worth every penny. The owner of this company used to work for Low alpine i think, who are renowned for great boots, but these are another level. Give up this modern gimmick of lightweight footwear, it's nonsense. What i have also found is, the footbed seems to aid your walking and you really don't notice any extra weight. BRILLIANT. Hope that helps.
Lmao, you don't know what to look for to keep your feet warm?
It's called INSULATED. Gortex is a WATERPROOF membrane inside. Two totally different things. This is epic 😆
By the way, i just bought these in hopes my feet keep warm... (Sarcasm)
I don’t think you’ve watched the other videos in my search for the right winter boots/shows for me. Thanks for the lesson, I had no idea that’s how this stuff worked!
@@SpiguyverBackpacking1 Lol, didn't need to. You stated you had no clue
Maybe! lol
Thanks!
Baffin
Thanks
Hi Mark - I have a pair of the same boots - I do agree with you _not great for on heavy rainy days. because i do have another pair (TERREX FREE HIKER COLD.RDY HIKING ) which perform better in heavy rain and are also very comfortable also light weight which what I look for in boots. I live in Belgium and it rains a lot here .....the hokas are great for long hiking without heavy back packing - too soft at he top so no stability - i have searched one do all boot but the reality is am still searching......
Yeah, not sure what is great. I haven't found much that really works for me and keeps the water out long term. I went with the Speedgoat GTX and they work, to a point.