Here’s the list of products reviewed. More details in the video description. Thank you! DeWalt Powerstack: amzn.to/3q7Df0t DeWalt 2.0 MAX (DCB 203): amzn.to/3qXI3Vn DeWalt 5.0 DCB 205: amzn.to/33fu58Y
Not only are you super knowledgeable when it comes to tools, you're also quite well versed in statistics. It's clear that you put a staggering amount of work into every aspect of your videos. Very impressive!!
At the current pricing, I'd rather have 2 or 3 of the regular 2AH batteries. If one fails, you still have a back-up. Also, I write the date I purchased the batteries on them, and assign them a number. That way if I have a battery that keeps coming up short or develops an issue, I know which one it is. It's too easy to lose track of batteries when you have 5 or 6 and are out in the field with a project.
I can see certain situations where the PS battery would be nice to have (weight). But I wouldn't go crazy with a bunch of them. Time will tell their reliability also. Gas buildup in a pouch pack kills the vacuum applied to it that keeps all the sandwiched materials together and you end up with a poor performer. Cylindrical cells are much more durable with regards to abuse imo.
I'm actually more interested in the price comparison between the PowerStack 2Ah and the regular 5Ah battery. If the 5 Ah battery is priced the same or less than the PowerStack, then the 5Ah is a way better deal. You get the same or better performance as the PowerStack, but more than double the capacity. The only thing you give up is size and weight, and I'm not sure it's enough of a difference to warrant the capacity loss when compared to the PowerStack.
Its probobly just matter of time untill the prismatic pack is cheaper than the circular cell. While the machinary to produce prismatic cell are more complicated, and expensive... the cells use less material
I’ve been watching other reviews on the new battery but eagerly awaiting PF’s testing and review. The go-to definitive source for information. Nobody comes close to Project Farm.
Everyone on RUclips needs to use your format. Right to the f-ing point without talking about what you're going to talk about. Very informative, organized, logically conducted, and, best of all, not once did you say, "but before we get started...". Bravo sir!
Since he probably made over $1,200 off this, it's an easy trade off. I wouldn't be surprised if Dewalt gave him the batteries though I'm sure he'd never admit to that. Doesn't really matter much, he comes out ahead.
The drain tests were the most revealing about this "better" battery. If I'm pulling out the cordless I want it to last as long as possible between charges - if the upfront power is higher but immediately drops off it's not really a win. Excellent video as always.
Batteries can give you overall capacity and they can be built to deliver the capacity at faster rates. Which means you're trading power (torque) for amount of time. They can make a battery that lasts you an hour straight but if the motor stalls driving in a basic wood screw every quarter second because they only allow a trickle out for that long lasting battery, of what use is it? It's all a balancing act. When you rebuild your batteries, if you're so inclined, you can choose cells with different ratings. I've made high capacity batteries with low drain specifically for a portable fan because fans are low torque applications and i do want them to last long between charges as they are continuous use. And while I still left it some oomph it'll not be my go to for driving bits and cutting unless I need it. I've built high capacity batteries with high drain for the power tools that need the torque. Pick and choose the application.
My 5AH DeWalt batteries cost the same as these powerstack batteries but produce more consistent torque for a much, much longer period of time. Where exactly do these batteries excel vs the 5AH? Slightly higher torque for about 20 seconds? The only consideration for preferring one of these new batteries comes down to weight and space saving neither of which I care about. The tech is certainly an improvement due to the better energy density but the significantly lower capacity and the high price point is not worth it compared to what I already own.
Weight and size are a huge deal for some applications. Having the same “oomph” from a tiny battery is a big win if you’re working over head or out reached in front of you.
@@etherealrose2139 Not only that, but the PowerStack isn't a 2AH battery, but a 1.7AH. So even without considering what you said, it's normal that it last less time.
VIDEO IDEA: how about testing different 3/8" rope for strength abrasion, UV resistance, etc ? I came across this blue "marine rope" on spool in home depot that seemed to be of far better quality than the precut sections. I'm curious to see how it would compare to the braided nylon versus rated rope vs climbing rope.
@@ProjectFarm if you do a rope test, I’d be insanely curious to see how well a rope that has been wormed, parceled, and served compares to a regular rope
@@piciu256thanks for the link but I meant comparing like hardware store rope (rated for xyz break strength) and maybe for giggles throw in some name brand static climbing rope and just see how it compares.. Interested in how different ropes fair for general household use. Clothesline cord is another good one to include as well.
Great work as always. One suggestion for displaying time dependent charts. Set the Y axis minimum to zero or close to it. This provides broader context to the performance and reduces what can seem like large differences in performance when looking at a narrow window.
I disagree. The purpose of the chart is to compare between the different batteries. It's not a leaf blower review, the exact numbers are not important. What's important are the differences between the numbers. If you were to set the Y axis to zero, then all the batteries would look nearly identical, and it would be difficult to tease out any difference at all. Plus, you'd be wasting 3/4 of the screen on pointless blank space. This is especially the case when you have the values of each point labeled in bold font, since it's clear that the Y axis has been changed to emphasize the differences.
In my personal experience these pouch cells very frequently start bulging after a few years and become very scary to have around, something I haven't seen with 18650s
I use these lipo cells in my drones and absolutely scary. Never charge them indoors, I had one start to bulge on my garage floor. I stopped charging it, but it carried on swelling and 10 minutes after I stopped the charge it burst into flames.
Great video, as anticipated. :-) The price of the lipo "pouch cell" battery is outrageous, they also have a tendency to puff up when cycled under heavy load.
One thing I appreciate about this channel is how much you engage with the community, even on old videos. That along with the work dedication you have shows how much effort you put into this channel. Even though tool videos aren’t my favorite subject, because of how involved you are in your work this channel is my favorite. Thank you for all you do! It also contributed greatly to my opinion to learn that you donate the tools you don’t use after making the videos. Keep it up!
Great job as always. If I could offer one suggestion, I would consider doing the lag bolt tests through a lamination of MDF. It would be a little more expensive but should yield more consistent results compared to the variables that exist in natural wood, knots etc. Keep up the good work. We really appreciate it.
That is the mark of someone that is actually interested in their contribution and is actively trying to improve their content through feedback from viewers vs. Someone that posts videos solely for clickbate induced views. Mr. P Farm is the real deal and has my absolute respect. This is content you cannot find anywhere else. Sadly enough it's overshadowed by one hit wonder drama this, you'll never guess what happened next! B.S. This platform started as a collection of entertaining videos, evolved into its current mess of an absolute train wreck of terrible content, but if you sift through the nonsense long enough, there are some absolutely brilliant people in there. This channel reserves high marks for its content, commitment and viewer recognition. I have absolutely no need for an electric chain saw but you can bet I watched every minute of that episode. That, my friends, is quality content.
That’s another excellent point. My comment was concerning the angle he drives the bolts isn’t always 90 degrees, he introduces another variable by not driving them straight.
I always appreciate PF's hard work in providing proof and keeping these manufacturers accountable for their product claims. No one else is out their doing what he does in such a clear unbiased manner, and for that we are eternally grateful!
It's a cool battery, but until the price comes way down, no reason I would buy them over the 5.0Ah batteries I regularly get free with tool deals. Great testing!
I have worked on making drone batteries and we experimented with both pouch cells and 21700 cells. We definitely found that the pouch cells were lighter and held a bit more power but we ended up changing to 21700s as the pouch cells were much more delicate and we had several suffer thermal runaway after relatively minor crashes. If it is a really hot day and you are using the batteries hard you had better not drop them, the thermal sensors on board just stop the drill from working if they get hot, it won't stop thermal runaway. That is why Tesla won't use them either but some other car brands still do.
Yep. I want to call those things *ly-poo* due to their more unpleasant tendencies. Better to use a *lot* of the canned cells if one can endure their bulk/weight, those or the lithium iron phosphate flavor.
@@David.....: Yes they are. Their full name is Lithium-Ion Polymer, or LiPo for short. I have never heard them called pouch cells but that certainly describes their appearance. Li-Ion cells are always cylindrical.
Like you, anyone with experience with radio control models is well aware of the downsides and volatility of pouch cells which is why I was shocked when finding out dewalt is now using them. There's a reason tool manufacturers use cylindrical cells, yes there's gruntier options available but cylindrical cells are the most robust and I'll be honest, I'm a heavy equipment mechanic, my tools get a VERY hard life, borderline abused. It's just the nature of the beast.
This was a well-done test with valuable information--thank you! It has given me more confidence in my purchase. I got lucky yesterday and caught the 2-pack of Powerstack batteries on sale at Lowe's for $199--that included a free DeWalt 20v tool (I chose the DCW200). I have three other types of DeWalt batteries including the DCB201 (1.5Ah), DCB203 (3Ah) and the DCB205 (the 5Ah). i'm happy to get rid of the 201s and the 203s and keep the Powerstacks because of the smaller form factor and greater power output. The 203 is a ridiculous pack and I hate it. Keeping the 205 for use on the string trimmer, reciprocating saw, and the circular saw. It's a great heavy-duty battery. Thanks again for the excellent video!
Thanks for taking all that time to show that it’s just a compact version of the 5 but without the runtime. As further packs get out on the market, a pack the size of a 5 will definitely be an improvement for runtime. So for anyone on the market for these, definitely worth it with a $149 kit with a free bare tool deal when you want something light & compact and don’t really care for the runtime as much.
Cool, another awesome Project Farm video! Todd I have a couple suggestions for testing: jigsaw blades and "quiet" air compressors. I purchased a California Air Tools quiet air compressor from Amazon a few years back. This thing is very quiet and only has a 1 gallon tank. It works great. Thank you for the video👍😁
_I purchased a _*_California Air Tools_*_ quiet air compressor from Amazon a few years back. This thing is very quiet and only has a 1 gallon tank. It works great_ That's been on my shopping list for two years 😁 waiting for my current unit to die first..
@@ProjectFarm How long is that list by now? I'm sure it's over 100 with all the input from your viewers! Thank you for making these videos, I've been a long time fan.
Hey Todd, excellent video as always! It's super impressive that you can always put out quality content while simultaneously working on long-term testing for other videos. There seems to be a lot of "RUclipsr burn-out" going around, so I hope you know that you don't have to keep upping the ante in order to maintain the channel. We'll enjoy whatever and whenever you make videos! Thanks for all your hard work!
Thanks for yet another great video. We are privileged to have a channel that gives us this type of content. How many times do DIY’ers & Contractors say, “some one should test to see how true these claims are” & PF comes along and actually does it. One of my favorite YT channels because of the honesty and unbiased results of these products. Thanks PF! As usual awesome video. 👍🏻👍🏻
I was impressed that the lighter one did as well as it did, but I can buy two of the heaver for the price of the double stack. I'll have to think on that one. Thanks for the great testing and the thought that went into each test. Keep the goodness coming. Be happy, safe and stay healthy! 😷⚒
The new batteries seem great but Dewalt is off their rocker with the price. They announced it as "slightly more expensive" due to the "new technology" then priced it more than double. Its not new technology, these are the same packs that every cell phone has. They just put 5 together in a plastic case. Until the price goes down its a gimic imo
@@Amadillo-v2y These batteries are not overpriced if you look at their extended usage compared to the older 2AH. The charge cycles are at least 3x that of the older style. You pay more up front but these are supposed to last significantly longer.
@@barnett25 I would agree. The 5AH obviously has a much longer run life per charge and for the construction application 5AH is much better than 1.7AH once they start releasing larger capacity power stacks then it would be worth considering over traditional battery packs.
Great job as always, Todd. You do a phenomenal job keeping the public informed on which items are potentially better than others! May I make a suggestion for a future video? As someone who's also fanatic about vehicle maintenance, could you research and test tire pressure gauges on accuracy? I have several brands, styles, digital and analog, they all read different pressures. Thanks for all you do, bud.
I'll throw some more support behind this idea. I've noticed a huge discrepancy between different gauges. Even if you just use the same gauge all the time, if its 7psi off reality on a car tire thats important. Maybe none are that far off actual, but I've seen 7psi difference between a couple gauges on a tire.
I have to commend you, ever since you started out you were proactive and replied to every comment. You still do that to this day, and it an amazing connection to your viewers
Pouch cells are a good idea for density, it will be cool to see more of them in the future, especially if DeWalt starts to manufacture them cutting out the 18650 suppliers which would lower cost. At the current cost there's no point, just get the 5AH.
If you do a lot of work overhead, or with a tool that already weighs a lot, the new powerstack might be a back and arm saver. They do have an advantage in weight over capacity for some applications.
@@nelsonbrum8496 In that case, just get a Dewalt CP-battery based on 21700-cells. Not as light, but more capacity and gives decent balance on most tools
If the stacked pouch configuration catches on the price will drop naturally. I'm curious about heat management, especially in anything larger than the 2AH equivalent seen here. Adding the 5AH in to this test was awesome, proved a very simple reality: There's no replacement for displacement.
@@SnowAroTV Turbocharged engines are notorious for blowing out their turbos. It's the prime fail point of any turbo charged engines, and the reason you don't find them very much on airplanes anymore. I say this an FAA licensed Airframe and Powerplant mechanic, so I know a thing or two about internal combustion engines. And a larger NA engine will last a hell of a lot longer than a smaller turbo charged engine. All you have to do is go down the local track and watch turbo-boosted Civics blow up left and right to know that much.
@@ImpendingJoker Adding- If noting else, the added complexity of a turbo means more points of failure. And the inherent drawbacks of turbos (turbo lag), which can be addressed... by adding more points of failure. The standard Dewalt batteries can be rebuilt. Is the same available for the Powerstack?
@ProjectFarm Credit where credit is due, brother. The crazier and darker this world gets, the more I appreciate those like you than bring in some much needed light.
I went to buy a waterproofing spray/paste for my work boots and work shoes, boy are there a lot of them. Would be interesting to see which work, and which keep working after flexing/rubbing/aging. Love your quality and insight, thanks for your dedicated efforts!
My take is that it seems that powerstack battery did very well for the power part. However, the capacity is pretty small and price is very steep so if you're not willing to pay premium for the weight/size, you should get a regular 5 Ah battery instead. Great testing as usual!
So I've been running a mix of DeWalt batteries for awhile now and I love the little Power Stack battery on the compact atomic stubby impacts. It does a great job with bolts and lasts quite a long time, all things considered. For a leaf blower of SawzAll I always grab a bigger battery but more often than not I use the little one on impacts.
Potentially a case to be made for the professional who regularly does overhead work. But except for process-specific factory work and drywallers, what's the point? Maybe someone who has to climb with all their gear would care about weight that much.
RC vehicles have been on the pouch style lithium batteries for ~15 years. You have a lot higher discharge/ amp rate than cell style packs. That’s why you see an increase in performance. But they’re somewhat venerable batteries to puncture and that’s probably why we haven’t seen them in power tools before now.
Us RC airplane guys were using the LiPo "pouch" batteries 5+ years before that. I remember when they were crazy expensive because the only cells were made in USA & considered "experimental" & dangerous. Once production shifted to China the prices went way down but, so did quality.
yeah, watching Todd just manhandling those bare cells made my heart stop for a few seconds. I was dreading some kind of fire happening 😬. Todd, please leave the battery cells alone if you have to tear down one of these things again for your own safety. Thank you!
Yeah there have been several people who have lost their homes due to lipo battery fires when charging unattended batteries,I store mine in metal ammo cans.I'm not sure bringing this new technology to tool batteries is a good idea?
I just saw on DeWalt's website that the new 5 AH power stack battery has been released. I'd love to see a revisit to this test to see how it holds up. As always you do an amazing job!
Interesting test. Especially comparing against the 2ah and 5ah to give a comparison of the different performance abilities. If one just read the label, you'd think the pouch cell was the total replacement for the 5ah. Not so fast, no free ride. Keep up the great work!!!!
I wonder how well the powerstack will hold up after 5+years of regular use? Considering how many pouch cells I've seen puff up and fail, my guess is not nearly as long as 18650s... Seriously overpriced and definitely NOT a battery I'd ever buy.
@@muddybadgers5205 They're less reliable if they're used in extreme power drain devices, like car jump starters (which draw peaks of 300-500 amps, no li ion cell will take that easily). Using liion for that aplication will either end up with a huge stack of parallel cells (so it will get enough current to withstand it), or you'll end up with a product that wont last long. LiPo batteries will last as long as 18650, which is around 2-3 years, then there will be quite a lot of degradation (which you may not notice, since its gradual). They're basically the same chemistry (li-ion), the only difference is that 18650s are better at heat dissipation and are less sensitive to mechanical damage.
Pouch cells will swell a bit under heavy load as well, I hope they left some room in there for them to grow. Fall damage could be a much bigger issue with these as well, pretty easy to internally short them due to crushing/denting.
Working at a hardware store that just recently started carrying these. According to the rep, these are the way dewalt is looking to go for all battery cells, but because of the reduced exposure of the surface area of each cell they haven't got a bigger battery ready to go yet. Having issues with shedding heat in bigger piles. The power stacks apparently also did better in extreme cold (Faibanks alaska in winter), but not "meaningfully worse" in extreme heat (Phoenix arizona in summer), which to me says it did do worse in heat but not much, which is consistent with the test results here. I'm also interested to see how the new 60v ultra high capacity when they hit the market. I haven't held one in my hands yep and I dont recall the AH rating but from the images they showed, the new battery looks huge (dwarfed the already very large 12AH) and I cant imagine it being useful in any but the most incredibly high demand settings. I am unsure but eyeballing it, it might be to large to fit inside the battery cradles for the later model 60v circular saws, the 60v chainsaws and the 60v table saw and might be to wide to have 2 side by side on the 120v miter saw. They said it was idea for the large 60v rotary hammer and cutoff saw, which makes a lot of sense. Would be a real wrist breaker on most others. Would be good if they made a true jackhammer intending to use those, since some other brands are hitting the market with battery jackhammers now.
We've seen the pouch style lipo batteries for 50 years in a lot of cheap products from small to big and also in cell phones. I've had them in things as small as action cameras to lithium jump starters. I hope this is not a way to give a cheaper product by marketing it as some new technology. Li-po is better at high current but it is more dangerous than the li-ion batteries from what I understand. We see in the video that the total power in Wh is lower with the power stack compared to the 2ah regular battery to. The power stack will have its place for high current applications though if you need a small battery. Any larger battery 5ah and up is going to have a lot of high current ability anyway no matter li-po or li-ion when it comes to power tool appicatons.
Awesome. All my coworkers are getting powerstack and I kept thinking "those are lipo batteries arent they" and you just cleared that up for me. Now I want some, Thanks!
Just bought a Craftsman cordless heat gun and made me wonder how the other brands would stack against that. The Craftsman is either on or off with no adjustment to trigger pull. 4ah battery lasts 15 minutes and runs an alleged 950°. Not sure how it stacks to the other brands, but realizing no temp setting (and not much power blowing the heat out) it sort of limits uses. I'd like to see how the other cordless heat guns compare. Adjustable heat levels, does it blow air pretty good or just a slight wisp, do they get to temps that are advertised and how long do they last on one charge? As always, amazing work! Thank you for what you do!
I bought the Milwaukee M18 heat gun and even with a 12ah battery it is so horrible I only use it if I have no access to 120V. I think that heat guns just need too much power to properly run on 18V. Love Milwaukee and have 30+ tools but this and the M12 vacuum upset me to even look at.
@@JayMoravec I know what you mean, I have B&D as well as Craftsman. Good for the DIY stuff I do but thought having a cordless heat gun would help with a lot of project too. No more bringing the small generator and 200 feet of extensions (only need about 50 but my luck...). And at 15 minutes per charge, I thought just 3 batteries and I'd be good for the day! Nope. Batteries last considerably less, plus there is next to no air movement. So the anticipated 45 minutes was closer to 10 and a lot of lost time going back home to drag out the usual gear while cursing myself for falling for "the x-ray vision specs from the back of a comic book". Lol! Another reason why I love watching this channel as well as AVE. They are both informative, amusing and as well as showing the world that you don't have to be owned by a label.
Please change your title from “Pouch Cell” and “Large Lithium” to “Lithium Polymer” versus “Lithium Ion” - the correct descriptions. Also, I understand why you tested it against the regular 2ah pack (because DeWalt used it as the comparison for their marketing) but it really should only be compared to an XR pack. You used the 5ah XR pack instead of a 2ah XR pack. The XRs use different (better and more expensive) cells that have higher discharge rates (better amperage). That should have been explained in your video. I only buy XR packs. Also, Lithium Polymer batteries are almost exclusively used to power radio controlled electrically powered airplanes - because they are light weight, pack a lot of amp hours, and the expensive ones have incredible high amperage capability. As always, love your concise, scientific and excellently produced video.
Used in jump starters, phones, tablets, and small devices with custom batteries that companies don't want users replacing so they can fill their greedy pockets.
Reduced size and weight are the only factors making the "stack" a better deal. In every way the 5 AHr battery stomps the stack, especially in terms of price, because they are the same while the 5 Ahr provides more than twice the watt hours. I'll bet battery usable lifetime for the stack is atrocious compared to 5 AHr, too.
@@juanc5149 I’ll believe it when I see it…. and see it repeated over time. We were told LED replacement lightbulbs would last much longer than incandescent but time has proven their cheap parts or manufacturing processes has produced bulbs that actually don’t last as long. -Not all change is progress.
@@preachers4135 LEDs indeed last more than incandescent bulbs, but there are a lot of knock off LEDs like those cheap ones sold on ebay made with cheap drivers, insufficient heat dissipation and thin wiring that just won't last long. I have only replaced one of the LED bulbs at home since I made the switch 5 years ago.
The 5AH battery has the advantage of lower discharge rate per cell, thus generating less heat and surviving at a more constant rate. Even without recharging, I find my batteries still have power once they return to ambient temperature. Heat is the enemy of Li-ion. Sporadic use allows the cells to cool between trigger pulls.
Yep. Heat does kill the Li-ion. The phone chargers that allow you to lay the phone on a pad and recharge without actually plugging in your phone generates more heat in the battery and will shorten the lifespan on your phone battery. And since recharging generates heat, it's best if you charge your phone when it gets down as low as possible. Each cycle of heating the battery shortens it's lifespan. Generally around 500 recharges and the Li-ion battery will start to lose capacity at an exponential rate, and it counts as a cycle whether you start charging with 1% or 50% battery remaining. We've all seen this with our phones. Usually around 1.5-2 years of having a phone and the battery loses life really fast because that is when you'll get to around 500 recharges.
Also lower discharge per cell means a lower voltage drop, thus more power through the tool. You effectively cut the internal resistance of the battery in half.
Good morning Project Farm. I love watching your videos, is there any way you could test door hardening products?? You could try comparing different styles of deadbolts, replacing screws for longer ones, kick plates, “door armor” and other door hardening kits or “hacks”, by testing how much force it takes to push open doors with them installed. I think it’d make for a really interesting video. Instead of purchasing whole doors, you could make “mini-doors” surrounded by the same type of wood that frames regular doors, then put them under your press to test how much force it takes to break it open.
@@ProjectFarm I love this video idea, however, the "mini-doors" would throw all of the data off for products designed for full sized doors. Also, the smaller a door is in width, the more of a gap there has to be between the door and the door jam, making most locking mechanisms unable to work properly. The only way around this would be to make the doors thinner, but doing that would make them too weak to stand up to any useful tests of the products/kits/hacks. Unfortunately I think that making a full sized door mockup, and then doing only non-destructive tests would be the only way to do this video idea. That being said, I love the video idea, so if you can find a way to make it work, please do!
Nice test with the standard 5ah battery added for performance and cost comparison. I held off on the 2ah PowerStack purchase since owning multiple 5ah batteries. Since this video was made, I recently obtained the new 5ah PowerStack batteries for my 1/4” cordless router. I am very happy how they are working out with maintaining the cutting speed for smooth cuts. This router was purchased for dressing up existing in-place woodwork, a great setup. Happy to have waited for the 5ah PowerStack version to come out.
Thank you so much for your dedication to others...🔋 The encased battery pouches generally have issues with swelling if not properly charged and discharged when compared to the cylinder (18650) batteries They cannot be left in a charger or may over swell and fail prematurely. The extra cost and weight savings is not worth it in my opinion. I'd opt for the 5 amp battery every time.
This is the case with all lithium batteries. Its just that cylindrical cells can't swell lol. Also modern lithium chargers never keep charging after they are done, if they did then the company would get in trouble for selling actual fire hazards to people. Lithiums don't like to be stored fully charged either, so never keep them sitting at 100% for a long time ( like a few days to a week), it shortens their lifetime a lot actually. Storing them fully charged will cause them to swell guaranteed (if a pouch cell) and lose capacity over time.
We've used these types of stacked cells in r/c applications for a long time because of the weight advantage. Many of the cells end up swelling after relatively few discharges. Hopefully they are as reliable as the 18650 powered batteries. I wonder what the C-rating of the cells will be.
Yeah these are the same lipo batteries RCs use. Also the lithium jump starters. This is because they can put out a lot of amps. They have less capacity by size / weight. But prone to puffing if over discharged or left charged for longer than a few weeks. It's also funny how lipo packs are a lot cheaper than 18650s. You can get a 4.0 AH 5s lipo (2X this capacity) for $50 so the markup on these is HUGE. But then again 10, 2500mah 35amp 18650s are $50 too. The markup on all the batteries is crazy really.
RC batteries tend to use a more volatile chemistry than most flat cells to let them crank out more power, but given the similar application I wouldn't be shocked if these tool cells were made *that* much more stable.
I just commented on the swelling aspect...I wonder how much room they left in those cases for the batteries to increase in size under heavy load. And yeah, the markup is insane, you could make your own pack for a fraction of the price.
We tried using them and switched back to our cell batteries as the puffy batteries burnt up,melted down or just didn't last nowhere near as long as the cell types did... They did have faster disharge rates which in turn meant more initial off the line speed but that went away quickly as they discharged rapidly..
Just chiming in to say how much I like your content. I don't even have that many tools, but I watch because it shows off real products in a reasonable test, without selling random garbage. Thanks!
Looks like a very good choice of battery for a little impact driver. Keeps it lite, makes it smaller so it can get into tighter spaces, and will allow the tool short burst of maximum power to drive or remove fasteners. Id say they hit the mark with this one!
The 5ah battery @ $70 gets my nod for the best value. I'd love to see a 5ah Powerstack tested against the standard 5ah pack. I wonder what the cycle life difference is between the 18650s and the pouches.
Another outstanding video! I think I'll be sticking to the 5Ah and 6Ah for the higher-load uses and keep the old 2Ah for light-duty, overhead/awkward positions (where the lighter overall tool would reduce fatigue) and FOR THOSE LAST TWO DANG FASTENERS. (I'm assuming that a few others here find that they often have to go find another battery _just_ when about to finish a job. Or, is that just me and my poor planning?)
Outstanding! God bless you and your family and your channel. Keep up the great work. You are the only person out there, that is showing a true outcome.
They are extremely fun to poke though, just do it from a distance... I burned my leg a bit poking one next to me! It sprayed out violent fire the instant the nail penetrated. I was expecting a delay where I could run. Lesson learned, haha
I've been binge watching your videos lately, great content! I'd really like to see miter saws and circular saws at some point. It'd get expensive, but some kind of tool cart from husky, Milwaukee, etc. would be interesting too....all of the casters and drawer slides seem to vary wildly in quality.
When I’m thinking of getting a new tool or anything even related, I always check your Chanel first to look for testing lol. Thanks! Your the best channel on RUclips!
The old saying "There's no replacement for displacement" still holds true today. However, power density can can fool one to think otherwise. Stacked round batteries have a fairly low power density and will take up more space compared to layered flat packs. The cost difference is the real killer. While I suppose high volume contractors will want those batteries and will just pass the cost along, the average home user won't spend that.
@@myid9876543 You can easily enough get various lipo cells of various sizes, with and without circuitry, Chinesium or well-made. You just gotta look for them as, well, lipo cells rather than "pouch packs".
They will have to add amp hours if they want to sell it to contractors. I don’t know anybody that uses less that 5.0 AH batteries on job sites. I use 8.0 AH or above exclusively. We don’t have time for dead 2 AH batteries all day. Yellow isn’t my color but hopefully they up the capacity so it’s more useful.
I've watched project farm for years! I've always love to just come to the channel just to see what's the best product. I should have said this years ago. Maybe you should do a Q&A video and let fans send things to a PO box. Kinda off topic but, it would be dope to send you some stuff
These are my favorite vids because I love and I have a dewalt so to so how different tools perform with different battery's was so informative and entertaining! Appreciate ya man!
Love the content! I was hoping you could do a review on different cone style cold air intakes. I know the stock replacement KNN failed horribly so im trying to find another brand that values quality a bit more
PF: I’ve watched tons of power stack videos as I just bought a new impact and was looking into new batteries. You testing as always, is very multifaceted and appropriate. Like others I think I’ll wait for now but it does show lots of room to develop a 4ah battery (my personal fav capacity) at far less weight in the future. Really cool battery tech but not able to be mass adopted yet.
Li-Po batteries are old tech that has been surpassed for quite a while now it’s the same battery tech that was in early smartphones that would expand after awhile
I think everyone has covered most of the comments. I just want to say how I really enjoy your videos and how to take the time to address comments. Happy New Year.
I would like to see you test the thickness of a soap bubble from various dish soap manufacturers. Not that I care what the outcome would be but I would love to see how you would create a test to achieve that measurement. Awesome stuff as always and good luck to your Channel in 2022. ✨🎈
The thickness of a soap bubbles? Yeah I don't think that's something he'll do. Take that request to another experiment channel. TKOR might be inter in that. Or Tyler Tube.
If you want to know which soap cleans the best then that's something project Farm would do. But testing soap bubble thickness?! This must be your first time viewing this channel.
They are more delicate than cell type batteries as there is no hard coating protecting them, but the power factor is usually better with less internal resistance allowing for faster amp drain on tools that need it.
Your concern was my first thought. These batteries will probably work good for a year and then see faster degradation than the standard Dewalt batteries with cylindrical cells due to the heat/gasses that quickly degrade pouch cells. I would rather have long term durability for my tools. Hopefully Dewalt thought of this.
From my experience with the soft cell packs, they are capable of higher amp loads, but that comes at the expense of more heat, and they don't really like heat much. They seem to destroy themselves faster because of this. They swell up and then it's game over. This is the reason I went back to the old lead acid battery jump starter packs. The lithium pouch versions work really well for a while, but then the packs swell from heat and they are garbage. It's hard to even find replacement pouches to fix the jump starter, which means more e-waste in the end. Maybe if they put in some kind of passive cooling they might hold up better.
They (pouch stack lipo) certainly provide more power in a smaller, lighter pack, but i take any bet they won't last as long, are more prone to overheating. The older round-cell pack will take a lot more use, abuse, wear&tear before breaking, both mechanical and electrical. I'm also concerned about their failure mode, should be more susceptible to fire, especially after suffering mechanical damage (everything will be used as a hammer at some point).
Interesting! The PowerStack is an expensive 2AH that weighs a bit less and is capable of higher discharge rates. The 5AH looks like the better choice for most applications, but I could see a 5 or 6 AH lightweight PowerStack being a seller if they can get that price down a bit.
You could easily make your own 5Ah Powerstack using a 6S lipo battery. Just choose the 5 best cells and put them in your battery pack. If you can't find any Lipo batteries that are the proper size (I know they make short Lipos but not sure if they will fit) then you can order cells online
Thank you I run all dewalt cordless tools and was just thinking about switching up my power supply but I think I will wait I have plenty 5.0ah batteries. As a general contractor your videos are very helpful
I swear your a mind reader I've been watching this channel for a few years and every time I'm in the market for something that needs replaced and then boom here's the video. Or maybe I'm just always buying more tools
@@ProjectFarm I'm serious when I say that I was wanting some new adjustable wrenches for my step son since he has a little car boom, my lady got a new Jeep and wanted a jump box then boom, was at work doing some sheet metal work and used the right angle impact adapter wanted one for myself and that night seen the video, knife sharpener system, cordless ratchet, it's literally been within a few days of me thinking about a product and doing research and you post the video. It's literally been this way for about a year now. I thank you for all you've put into this channel making it my number one go to for a real unbiased test. I hope your channel continues to grow and spread the truth about products so people can get what they are actually looking for. Happy New Year and God bless you sir
The powerstack is only rated at like 1.7aH so it definitely is an impressive little battery. Bringing it up to 3aH would still keep it fair small and jus have the much longer run time. Its already pretty comparable to the 5aH except for run time of course, so making a 3aH powerstack would jus be that much better. Great vid as always Todd. This is the comparison vid i have been waiting for, getting down to the nitty gritty which is your specialty haha
For its type and design the DA4031 from Makita has been the beast for many years. It is a workhorse. It will cruise through a workday that would leave a battery drill smoking and croaking.
Thank you!!! Paid 175 for 2 power stack yesterday! I like the lighter form factor for travel as moving away from Ni-CA I cannot check in the batteries in my toolbox and going to carry them in my already heavy backpack! Awesome videos!!
Great review as usual. I do not think you should throw out the slowest cold temperature run as the battery pack heats up with use and you are testing cold performance. Consequently the longest time should be the first or coldest run and is the most important piece of comparative data.
Personally, I would avoid these pouch type lithium ion batteries like the plague. As a Vaporer, 18650s are the way to go especially under high fast amp discharge; 18650s from Panasonic, Sony and Samsung are not only safe chemistry but they last a very long time years in fact. If there's a bad cell it can be replaced. Much easier than some off-sized pack.
You’re a bit backwards but not entirely wrong. Polymer cells discharge very fast and very hard for long periods of time compared to modern 18650 cells. You can have almost the same current capabilities in half the size, but of course the draw back is polymer cells are more volatile, and need a more precise management system to monitor each cell very closely to prevent bulging. Replacing a cell would actually be easier on a polymer pack as each “pouch” is just two tabs that be cut and spot welded again. 18650 packs are spot welded as well but are a ton harder to fix. But when replacing cells you need to replace the whole pack anyways to avoid uneven charging/discharge rates so that throws it all out the window anyways.
It’ll be interesting to see how the larger form factor power stacks will perform when announced in a couple months or even a flexvolt. Also it’s not that surprising for the power stack to run out faster in some situations since it’s technically on 1.5 AH
killed it! I watch a lot of your videos and I've never seen one that I didn't like, .... some are a little long winded but this one was particularly well done with a lot of very detail, accurate and specific information including disassembling the battery packs.... A lot of work. Great job!
This is one foreboding bad move. Pouch style are less robust and more prone to damage. 18650's are good because of their individual metal containment and air between them for better cooling. These batteries will NOT have the 10 year life span the 18650 batteries do.
The power stack is definitely a niche for people who value the smaller footprint and weight but don't need huge capacity, it will definitely sell. Your results do mimmick alot of information I've seen on the torque test channel where basically the larger capacity packs just end up providing more torque with impacts, the 5ah is usually pretty consistent though because I believe they are still using Samsung 30T 21700 cells which are some of the best mass produced cylindrical batteries for high discharge applications.
"lipo's" are WAY cheaper than cylindrical. Those particular lipos are wholesale two to five dollars a per cell. As a side note they should not be flexed as you did when you disassembled the pack. They are also capable exceedingly high discharge rates of 10C or better IF they are of good quality. If they are good quality lipos they can be charged to 80-90% in 15 minutes. Lipo's do have a shorter life and heat shortens their life dramatically. They also should not be stored for any period of time with more than 50% charge which they will maintain for an exceedingly long time.
These cells are not "WAY cheaper", soft pouch and cylindrical cells, depending on what market demands pouch cells can be cheaper on any given day than the equivalent 18650 cells. C ratings and capacity are a trade off, you won't find a high C rated battery with a high energy density, it's just not how battery chemistry works. 18650 C ratings are only limited for long term output and that's purely a heat issue and even prismatic cells can't maintain their rated C value indefinitely. Store batteries between 40% and 70% capacity.
This is the only good comment thread here explaining WHY. Pouch cells are LIPO batteries, just in a different shape. They have different charge/discharge rates. DEWALT IS JUST SLAPPING A HIGH PRICE ON THESE AND USING A TERM SIMPLETONS WILL THINK THEY ARE GETTING SOMETIING BETTER. Absolute ripoff is what these are for the average user.
@@Sonex1542 not necessarily, it's possible dewalt had these custom made to their spec, if they went for high discharge rate AND a *relatively* high capacity this would also dramatically increase the price of the cells. There's so many factors here it's hard to say if these truly are a rip off. You'll be paying a premium no doubt but it's hard to say if they're actually taking higher margins.
You have the best videos on testing absolutely everything! I'm hooked on your channel! I've watched every video a few times. I highly appreciate all your vids! Btw I think you need a holiday! So much work and vids! Cheers 🙂👍👍👍
I bought a two pack from Facebook marketplace for $100 last week. I'm sure that person stole it from Home Depot or something but I figured someone was going to buy it, might as well have been me. It does make quite a difference, particularly with the new subcompact Atomic line of impacts. The DCF823b Atomic 3/8" stubby impact will pull a rear caliper bracket bolt on a GMC 3500. It won't with a regular old 3 ah battery, and takes a bit longer with a 5 ah, although it will break the bolt loose eventually.
The polymer pouch cells are less expensive to manufacture than the 18650 cells which is not reflected in the retail price. Maybe there is more "protection" electronics. The polymer pouches and expand quite a bit it over charged. The housing needs to be sized accordingly. If not, the additional pressure could cause a fire.
it is not even cost effective to repair them with the premium cells they came with unless you have an extreme hook up on cells. With the cheaper places to just buy new batteries it is not worth it.
You can purchase pouch cells from many outlets on the Internet. Each pouch usually has it's own charge controller (BMS)under some tape at the front and can be swapped if they try to use a proprietary BMS. The main issue with pouch batteries is bending, puncturing or just manufacturing irregularities make them extremely volatile and when they go up in flames it is catastrophic. The 18650's are the same battery composition but they have vents in the caps that make them a lot less likely to go up in flames.
Was there a significant difference in recharge times between the lithium cell packs and the lithium pouch pack? If the pouch pack can recharge faster, that may help offset the cost a little as you would need less of them overall for continuous use.
Battery charge rate is determined by the charger, the current level to fill the capacity of the pack. It does not vary based on which lithium cell type is inside. - with one exception, that if the minimum cutoff voltage threshold is different from the different protection circuit, if you get less out of the battery before it shuts off, there's less to put back in charging it.
The problem with pouches is the failure rate over cells. Anything with a custom size like that has far fewer working hours on its design so the ability to catch problems and potential catastrophic failure modes is diminished. Personally I'm sticking with the cell design as the risk doesn't out weight he rewards.
The pouches do have a tendancy to swell when off gassing from an overcurrent or impact/crush incident, I think I'll stick to the cylindrical cell design.
Reason I stuck with the old 18v ones till recent. Just bought the adapters and slapped in the lithium batteries. Waiting till the bugs get worked out on some of the newer tools and these pouch batteries before I switch.
My experience with pouch cells in the R/C world, is that they tend to swell up and leak. ( especially after a few ground impacts) i think the cylindrical cell is tougher. But the pouch cell lighter is probably more efficient in discharge rate compared to the cylindrical cell which means more initial power.
I’m an electrician. I work on job sites every day. So I’ve seen the abuse that cordless tools take from guys and in my trade and other trades. And these tools take a beating. Being dropped from very high heights, drained to zero, and being used in extreme climates. I also have a large electric RC collection that use lipo batteries. Lipo batteries when abused can burn you house down with little warning. Each cell needs to be balanced. Cells cannot be damaged from drops causing a pouch to rupture and burst into flames. The old Samsung phone that would blow up in your pocket. No thanks. Wouldn’t want these batteries in my truck tool box baking in the sun working in the desert. Or charging at home or on the job unattended. There’s guys that sometimes leave thier batteries on a charger all day. I’m not going to trust the on board electronics in the battery or the charger. And if a guy is complaining about weight of a tool because the battery is heavy. Then get a desk job.
@@asificam1 ni-mh doesn't like high power drain applications, and voltage is not as constant as nicad or lithium-ion. Power density is also much less than lithium-ion.
@@asificam1 going to bulkier, less power dense batteries, that ouput less current, and have smaller electrode surface area seeems to be the exact opposite of what every powertool manufacturer is doning and the exact opposite of the whole powerstack concept. You want larger electrode surfaces to move more current, at 18-20v so modern tools have more power in smaller, compact, lighter pacakages. Just going to ni-mh would double the weight alone.
Here’s the list of products reviewed. More details in the video description. Thank you!
DeWalt Powerstack: amzn.to/3q7Df0t
DeWalt 2.0 MAX (DCB 203): amzn.to/3qXI3Vn
DeWalt 5.0 DCB 205: amzn.to/33fu58Y
Not only are you super knowledgeable when it comes to tools, you're also quite well versed in statistics. It's clear that you put a staggering amount of work into every aspect of your videos. Very impressive!!
Thanks!
@@ProjectFarm Me 2!
@@ProjectFarm you forgot to weighed the batteries packs, thanks for the video uploads you are the best on RUclips 👍👍👍
@@MrSeth166 1:54
If you mounted the blower facing forward on a car, and drove 60 mph, would the air in front of the running blower be still?
At the current pricing, I'd rather have 2 or 3 of the regular 2AH batteries. If one fails, you still have a back-up. Also, I write the date I purchased the batteries on them, and assign them a number. That way if I have a battery that keeps coming up short or develops an issue, I know which one it is. It's too easy to lose track of batteries when you have 5 or 6 and are out in the field with a project.
👍🏼 Yes, that is similar to what I do! Got to know which are getting wimpy or might be a warranty claim! 😎✌🏼
I can see certain situations where the PS battery would be nice to have (weight). But I wouldn't go crazy with a bunch of them.
Time will tell their reliability also. Gas buildup in a pouch pack kills the vacuum applied to it that keeps all the sandwiched materials together and you end up with a poor performer. Cylindrical cells are much more durable with regards to abuse imo.
Thanks for the feedback. Good tip.
I'm actually more interested in the price comparison between the PowerStack 2Ah and the regular 5Ah battery. If the 5 Ah battery is priced the same or less than the PowerStack, then the 5Ah is a way better deal. You get the same or better performance as the PowerStack, but more than double the capacity. The only thing you give up is size and weight, and I'm not sure it's enough of a difference to warrant the capacity loss when compared to the PowerStack.
Its probobly just matter of time untill the prismatic pack is cheaper than the circular cell.
While the machinary to produce prismatic cell are more complicated, and expensive... the cells use less material
I’ve been watching other reviews on the new battery but eagerly awaiting PF’s testing and review. The go-to definitive source for information. Nobody comes close to Project Farm.
Thanks!
Torque Test Channel
Just buy Milwaukee and never worry.
Battery Mooch but I don't think hes done pouch cells too much.
Everyone on RUclips needs to use your format. Right to the f-ing point without talking about what you're going to talk about. Very informative, organized, logically conducted, and, best of all, not once did you say, "but before we get started...". Bravo sir!
Thanks!
I would have had a hard time destroying a $120 battery! Thank you for doing it for us!
You are welcome!
@@ProjectFarm Who expected Todd to say "my pleasure" instead of "you're welcome"? 😁
If you made the money he does for doing so...it would be easy.
Since he probably made over $1,200 off this, it's an easy trade off. I wouldn't be surprised if Dewalt gave him the batteries though I'm sure he'd never admit to that. Doesn't really matter much, he comes out ahead.
The drain tests were the most revealing about this "better" battery. If I'm pulling out the cordless I want it to last as long as possible between charges - if the upfront power is higher but immediately drops off it's not really a win. Excellent video as always.
Thanks! Thanks for the feedback.
Batteries can give you overall capacity and they can be built to deliver the capacity at faster rates. Which means you're trading power (torque) for amount of time. They can make a battery that lasts you an hour straight but if the motor stalls driving in a basic wood screw every quarter second because they only allow a trickle out for that long lasting battery, of what use is it?
It's all a balancing act. When you rebuild your batteries, if you're so inclined, you can choose cells with different ratings. I've made high capacity batteries with low drain specifically for a portable fan because fans are low torque applications and i do want them to last long between charges as they are continuous use. And while I still left it some oomph it'll not be my go to for driving bits and cutting unless I need it. I've built high capacity batteries with high drain for the power tools that need the torque.
Pick and choose the application.
My 5AH DeWalt batteries cost the same as these powerstack batteries but produce more consistent torque for a much, much longer period of time. Where exactly do these batteries excel vs the 5AH? Slightly higher torque for about 20 seconds? The only consideration for preferring one of these new batteries comes down to weight and space saving neither of which I care about. The tech is certainly an improvement due to the better energy density but the significantly lower capacity and the high price point is not worth it compared to what I already own.
Weight and size are a huge deal for some applications. Having the same “oomph” from a tiny battery is a big win if you’re working over head or out reached in front of you.
@@etherealrose2139 Not only that, but the PowerStack isn't a 2AH battery, but a 1.7AH. So even without considering what you said, it's normal that it last less time.
VIDEO IDEA: how about testing different 3/8" rope for strength abrasion, UV resistance, etc ? I came across this blue "marine rope" on spool in home depot that seemed to be of far better quality than the precut sections. I'm curious to see how it would compare to the braided nylon versus rated rope vs climbing rope.
Thanks for the suggestion.
@@ProjectFarm if you do a rope test, I’d be insanely curious to see how well a rope that has been wormed, parceled, and served compares to a regular rope
Great idea
There is a channel that does rope tests already, he has the proper testing equipment and stuff, channel called HowNot2
@@piciu256thanks for the link but I meant comparing like hardware store rope (rated for xyz break strength) and maybe for giggles throw in some name brand static climbing rope and just see how it compares..
Interested in how different ropes fair for general household use. Clothesline cord is another good one to include as well.
Great work as always. One suggestion for displaying time dependent charts. Set the Y axis minimum to zero or close to it. This provides broader context to the performance and reduces what can seem like large differences in performance when looking at a narrow window.
Thanks! Thanks for the suggestion.
i second this i was thinking this exact thought when I saw the first graph
I wasn’t thinking that at all. Not even close. Probably had ramen or something on my mind.
Yes, I had the same suggestion.
I disagree. The purpose of the chart is to compare between the different batteries. It's not a leaf blower review, the exact numbers are not important. What's important are the differences between the numbers. If you were to set the Y axis to zero, then all the batteries would look nearly identical, and it would be difficult to tease out any difference at all. Plus, you'd be wasting 3/4 of the screen on pointless blank space. This is especially the case when you have the values of each point labeled in bold font, since it's clear that the Y axis has been changed to emphasize the differences.
In my personal experience these pouch cells very frequently start bulging after a few years and become very scary to have around, something I haven't seen with 18650s
Thanks for sharing.
that's why tesla car do not use pouch but the 18650. GM went pouch and excuse me! "your cars on fire"
Same thing for me.
I use these lipo cells in my drones and absolutely scary. Never charge them indoors, I had one start to bulge on my garage floor. I stopped charging it, but it carried on swelling and 10 minutes after I stopped the charge it burst into flames.
@@thra5herxb12s DeWalt is using Li-ion, not Lipo.
Fastest notification ever! Love your battery pack testing videos. :-)
Thank you very much!! By the way, enjoyed your video today!!
Great video, as anticipated. :-) The price of the lipo "pouch cell" battery is outrageous, they also have a tendency to puff up when cycled under heavy load.
"Fastest notification ever!" "We're gonna test that" 😉
@@electronicsNmore why don't you watch Taofledermaus anymore? You used to comment there all the time as well. Did Jeff piss you off or something?
One thing I appreciate about this channel is how much you engage with the community, even on old videos. That along with the work dedication you have shows how much effort you put into this channel. Even though tool videos aren’t my favorite subject, because of how involved you are in your work this channel is my favorite. Thank you for all you do! It also contributed greatly to my opinion to learn that you donate the tools you don’t use after making the videos. Keep it up!
I hold him and ChrisFix in very high regard compared to all the RUclips people I follow.
ye i tried asking him questions and he only replied basically thanks for the feedback bye
Thanks, will do!
Your work is one of my favorite on RUclips. Thank you for what you do, Sir.
Wow, thank you!
Great job as always. If I could offer one suggestion, I would consider doing the lag bolt tests through a lamination of MDF. It would be a little more expensive but should yield more consistent results compared to the variables that exist in natural wood, knots etc. Keep up the good work. We really appreciate it.
Thanks, will do! Thanks for the constructive feedback.
@@ProjectFarm OSB would also work well if the MDF decides it would rather do the splits
I love how project farm is so meticulous about reading, responding, and taking feedback. Such a cool guy!
That is the mark of someone that is actually interested in their contribution and is actively trying to improve their content through feedback from viewers vs. Someone that posts videos solely for clickbate induced views. Mr. P Farm is the real deal and has my absolute respect. This is content you cannot find anywhere else. Sadly enough it's overshadowed by one hit wonder drama this, you'll never guess what happened next! B.S. This platform started as a collection of entertaining videos, evolved into its current mess of an absolute train wreck of terrible content, but if you sift through the nonsense long enough, there are some absolutely brilliant people in there. This channel reserves high marks for its content, commitment and viewer recognition. I have absolutely no need for an electric chain saw but you can bet I watched every minute of that episode. That, my friends, is quality content.
That’s another excellent point. My comment was concerning the angle he drives the bolts isn’t always 90 degrees, he introduces another variable by not driving them straight.
I always appreciate PF's hard work in providing proof and keeping these manufacturers accountable for their product claims.
No one else is out their doing what he does in such a clear unbiased manner, and for that we are eternally grateful!
Thanks!
Exactly! Well said.
This channel NEVER disappoints. It's as if you read my mind and answered the question that I was about to ask.
Thanks so much!
It's a cool battery, but until the price comes way down, no reason I would buy them over the 5.0Ah batteries I regularly get free with tool deals. Great testing!
100%.
Thanks! Thanks for the feedback.
Yeah and it the 5AH is too big for you, just buy the new-ish 4AH that is thinner than the old 4AH.
I have worked on making drone batteries and we experimented with both pouch cells and 21700 cells. We definitely found that the pouch cells were lighter and held a bit more power but we ended up changing to 21700s as the pouch cells were much more delicate and we had several suffer thermal runaway after relatively minor crashes. If it is a really hot day and you are using the batteries hard you had better not drop them, the thermal sensors on board just stop the drill from working if they get hot, it won't stop thermal runaway. That is why Tesla won't use them either but some other car brands still do.
This Needs To Be Publicly Known!! _ Thank You!
Yep. I want to call those things *ly-poo* due to their more unpleasant tendencies.
Better to use a *lot* of the canned cells if one can endure their bulk/weight, those or the lithium iron phosphate flavor.
These pouch cells are NOT lithum polymer cells like in rc cars.
@@David.....: Yes they are. Their full name is Lithium-Ion Polymer, or LiPo for short. I have never heard them called pouch cells but that certainly describes their appearance. Li-Ion cells are always cylindrical.
Like you, anyone with experience with radio control models is well aware of the downsides and volatility of pouch cells which is why I was shocked when finding out dewalt is now using them.
There's a reason tool manufacturers use cylindrical cells, yes there's gruntier options available but cylindrical cells are the most robust and I'll be honest, I'm a heavy equipment mechanic, my tools get a VERY hard life, borderline abused. It's just the nature of the beast.
You have answered all our questions once again. Thanks for all you do and getting us the information everyone is looking for. Happy New Year.
Never any "Santa Clause" reviews on this channel. Only the truth. Happy New Year and Thank you!
This was a well-done test with valuable information--thank you! It has given me more confidence in my purchase. I got lucky yesterday and caught the 2-pack of Powerstack batteries on sale at Lowe's for $199--that included a free DeWalt 20v tool (I chose the DCW200). I have three other types of DeWalt batteries including the DCB201 (1.5Ah), DCB203 (3Ah) and the DCB205 (the 5Ah). i'm happy to get rid of the 201s and the 203s and keep the Powerstacks because of the smaller form factor and greater power output. The 203 is a ridiculous pack and I hate it. Keeping the 205 for use on the string trimmer, reciprocating saw, and the circular saw. It's a great heavy-duty battery. Thanks again for the excellent video!
Thanks and you are welcome! Thanks for the feedback.
Thanks for taking all that time to show that it’s just a compact version of the 5 but without the runtime. As further packs get out on the market, a pack the size of a 5 will definitely be an improvement for runtime. So for anyone on the market for these, definitely worth it with a $149 kit with a free bare tool deal when you want something light & compact and don’t really care for the runtime as much.
Thank you!
Cool, another awesome Project Farm video! Todd I have a couple suggestions for testing: jigsaw blades and "quiet" air compressors. I purchased a California Air Tools quiet air compressor from Amazon a few years back. This thing is very quiet and only has a 1 gallon tank. It works great. Thank you for the video👍😁
Thank you for the video ideas! Added to my list of projects to look into testing
_I purchased a _*_California Air Tools_*_ quiet air compressor from Amazon a few years back. This thing is very quiet and only has a 1 gallon tank. It works great_
That's been on my shopping list for two years 😁 waiting for my current unit to die first..
+1 for quiet air compressors
@@ProjectFarm How long is that list by now? I'm sure it's over 100 with all the input from your viewers!
Thank you for making these videos, I've been a long time fan.
Can you do a test on the best electrical outlet? I know some are better built than others.
Hey Todd, excellent video as always! It's super impressive that you can always put out quality content while simultaneously working on long-term testing for other videos. There seems to be a lot of "RUclipsr burn-out" going around, so I hope you know that you don't have to keep upping the ante in order to maintain the channel. We'll enjoy whatever and whenever you make videos! Thanks for all your hard work!
Thanks and you are welcome!
Thanks for yet another great video. We are privileged to have a channel that gives us this type of content. How many times do DIY’ers & Contractors say, “some one should test to see how true these claims are” & PF comes along and actually does it. One of my favorite YT channels because of the honesty and unbiased results of these products. Thanks PF! As usual awesome video. 👍🏻👍🏻
Thanks and you are welcome!
I was impressed that the lighter one did as well as it did, but I can buy two of the heaver for the price of the double stack. I'll have to think on that one. Thanks for the great testing and the thought that went into each test. Keep the goodness coming. Be happy, safe and stay healthy! 😷⚒
Thanks, will do!
The new batteries seem great but Dewalt is off their rocker with the price. They announced it as "slightly more expensive" due to the "new technology" then priced it more than double. Its not new technology, these are the same packs that every cell phone has. They just put 5 together in a plastic case. Until the price goes down its a gimic imo
@@Amadillo-v2y These batteries are not overpriced if you look at their extended usage compared to the older 2AH. The charge cycles are at least 3x that of the older style. You pay more up front but these are supposed to last significantly longer.
@@Junglebrute key words: supposed to
@@barnett25 I would agree. The 5AH obviously has a much longer run life per charge and for the construction application 5AH is much better than 1.7AH once they start releasing larger capacity power stacks then it would be worth considering over traditional battery packs.
Great job as always, Todd. You do a phenomenal job keeping the public informed on which items are potentially better than others! May I make a suggestion for a future video? As someone who's also fanatic about vehicle maintenance, could you research and test tire pressure gauges on accuracy? I have several brands, styles, digital and analog, they all read different pressures. Thanks for all you do, bud.
Thanks! Thanks for the video idea.
So true.
@@ProjectFarm I agree that a tire pressure gauge review would be great. I have several, and they don't agree, and I don't know which to trust!
I'll throw some more support behind this idea. I've noticed a huge discrepancy between different gauges. Even if you just use the same gauge all the time, if its 7psi off reality on a car tire thats important. Maybe none are that far off actual, but I've seen 7psi difference between a couple gauges on a tire.
Great idea!
Once again, you hit it out of the park. Love your content. Keep up the great work. It is appreciated!
Thank you very much!
I have to commend you, ever since you started out you were proactive and replied to every comment. You still do that to this day, and it an amazing connection to your viewers
Thanks!
It would be awesome to see more weather/temperature testing with different brands and sizes/types of batteries!
Thanks for the suggestion.
Thanks for doing this as I am excited about these new cells!
You're welcome! Hope DeWalt can increase the amp hour capacity. I believe FLEX is coming out with a similar technology soon.
Pouch cells are a good idea for density, it will be cool to see more of them in the future, especially if DeWalt starts to manufacture them cutting out the 18650 suppliers which would lower cost. At the current cost there's no point, just get the 5AH.
Thanks for the feedback.
If you do a lot of work overhead, or with a tool that already weighs a lot, the new powerstack might be a back and arm saver. They do have an advantage in weight over capacity for some applications.
@@nelsonbrum8496 In that case, just get a Dewalt CP-battery based on 21700-cells. Not as light, but more capacity and gives decent balance on most tools
A while back there was a 2 pack for 180 so a bit better price per pack. Still a bit pricey though
Indeed, the price will have to come down, and it will. Great comment! 👍✌🏻
5AH all day! Awesome run down as always and that price of the 5AH on Amazon is incredible! I'm ordering a few more now.
Thanks!
Be wary of Amazon tool batteries. Many are counterfeit or seconds that perform poorly and have short longevity.
If the stacked pouch configuration catches on the price will drop naturally. I'm curious about heat management, especially in anything larger than the 2AH equivalent seen here.
Adding the 5AH in to this test was awesome, proved a very simple reality: There's no replacement for displacement.
Thanks for the feedback.
It’s like picking between a larger naturally aspirated engine or a smaller turbocharged one haha.
Smaller turbo charger one will fail 1st
@@VaporRipper say you know nothing about internal combustion engines without saying it.
@@SnowAroTV Turbocharged engines are notorious for blowing out their turbos. It's the prime fail point of any turbo charged engines, and the reason you don't find them very much on airplanes anymore. I say this an FAA licensed Airframe and Powerplant mechanic, so I know a thing or two about internal combustion engines. And a larger NA engine will last a hell of a lot longer than a smaller turbo charged engine. All you have to do is go down the local track and watch turbo-boosted Civics blow up left and right to know that much.
@@ImpendingJoker Adding-
If noting else, the added complexity of a turbo means more points of failure. And the inherent drawbacks of turbos (turbo lag), which can be addressed... by adding more points of failure.
The standard Dewalt batteries can be rebuilt. Is the same available for the Powerstack?
@@SnowAroTV So what were you saying again???🙄
I just love this guy. Sometimes, I even watch a review on something just to hear an honest, positive voice lol
Thanks so much!
@ProjectFarm Credit where credit is due, brother. The crazier and darker this world gets, the more I appreciate those like you than bring in some much needed light.
I went to buy a waterproofing spray/paste for my work boots and work shoes, boy are there a lot of them. Would be interesting to see which work, and which keep working after flexing/rubbing/aging. Love your quality and insight, thanks for your dedicated efforts!
You are welcome! Thanks for the suggestion.
I'd like to see that as well.
If leather, Mink oil. If nylon, silicone oil.
My take is that it seems that powerstack battery did very well for the power part. However, the capacity is pretty small and price is very steep so if you're not willing to pay premium for the weight/size, you should get a regular 5 Ah battery instead. Great testing as usual!
Thanks! Thanks for the feedback.
5 ah stacker is coming soon.
@@Bigfoothawk omg the price would be sky shaking.
So I've been running a mix of DeWalt batteries for awhile now and I love the little Power Stack battery on the compact atomic stubby impacts. It does a great job with bolts and lasts quite a long time, all things considered. For a leaf blower of SawzAll I always grab a bigger battery but more often than not I use the little one on impacts.
Potentially a case to be made for the professional who regularly does overhead work. But except for process-specific factory work and drywallers, what's the point? Maybe someone who has to climb with all their gear would care about weight that much.
RC vehicles have been on the pouch style lithium batteries for ~15 years. You have a lot higher discharge/ amp rate than cell style packs. That’s why you see an increase in performance. But they’re somewhat venerable batteries to puncture and that’s probably why we haven’t seen them in power tools before now.
Thanks for the feedback.
Us RC airplane guys were using the LiPo "pouch" batteries 5+ years before that. I remember when they were crazy expensive because the only cells were made in USA & considered "experimental" & dangerous. Once production shifted to China the prices went way down but, so did quality.
same with phones
yeah, watching Todd just manhandling those bare cells made my heart stop for a few seconds. I was dreading some kind of fire happening 😬. Todd, please leave the battery cells alone if you have to tear down one of these things again for your own safety. Thank you!
Yeah there have been several people who have lost their homes due to lipo battery fires when charging unattended batteries,I store mine in metal ammo cans.I'm not sure bringing this new technology to tool batteries is a good idea?
I agree the best out there doing analytics, performance,and build quality is Project Farm . I appreciate you and looking forward to your content
Thanks so much!
I just saw on DeWalt's website that the new 5 AH power stack battery has been released. I'd love to see a revisit to this test to see how it holds up. As always you do an amazing job!
Thanks! Thanks for the suggestion.
you have to sell a kidney to afford them lol
@@maddawgzzzzlowes has a deal 326 for 2 5ah ps with free tool, returned the tool for 126
Interesting test. Especially comparing against the 2ah and 5ah to give a comparison of the different performance abilities. If one just read the label, you'd think the pouch cell was the total replacement for the 5ah. Not so fast, no free ride. Keep up the great work!!!!
Thanks, will do!
I wonder how well the powerstack will hold up after 5+years of regular use? Considering how many pouch cells I've seen puff up and fail, my guess is not nearly as long as 18650s...
Seriously overpriced and definitely NOT a battery I'd ever buy.
DeWalt says double the charge cycles, but lithium ion polymer cells have proven to be a lot less reliable in other applications
@@muddybadgers5205 They're less reliable if they're used in extreme power drain devices, like car jump starters (which draw peaks of 300-500 amps, no li ion cell will take that easily). Using liion for that aplication will either end up with a huge stack of parallel cells (so it will get enough current to withstand it), or you'll end up with a product that wont last long.
LiPo batteries will last as long as 18650, which is around 2-3 years, then there will be quite a lot of degradation (which you may not notice, since its gradual). They're basically the same chemistry (li-ion), the only difference is that 18650s are better at heat dissipation and are less sensitive to mechanical damage.
@@Bramble20322 I know people put them in special boxes to contain a fire when they charge them for RC cars
There's a reason other tools don't use them. Plus, a safe version that holds up well, would cost far more money.
Pouch cells will swell a bit under heavy load as well, I hope they left some room in there for them to grow. Fall damage could be a much bigger issue with these as well, pretty easy to internally short them due to crushing/denting.
Working at a hardware store that just recently started carrying these. According to the rep, these are the way dewalt is looking to go for all battery cells, but because of the reduced exposure of the surface area of each cell they haven't got a bigger battery ready to go yet. Having issues with shedding heat in bigger piles. The power stacks apparently also did better in extreme cold (Faibanks alaska in winter), but not "meaningfully worse" in extreme heat (Phoenix arizona in summer), which to me says it did do worse in heat but not much, which is consistent with the test results here. I'm also interested to see how the new 60v ultra high capacity when they hit the market. I haven't held one in my hands yep and I dont recall the AH rating but from the images they showed, the new battery looks huge (dwarfed the already very large 12AH) and I cant imagine it being useful in any but the most incredibly high demand settings. I am unsure but eyeballing it, it might be to large to fit inside the battery cradles for the later model 60v circular saws, the 60v chainsaws and the 60v table saw and might be to wide to have 2 side by side on the 120v miter saw. They said it was idea for the large 60v rotary hammer and cutoff saw, which makes a lot of sense. Would be a real wrist breaker on most others. Would be good if they made a true jackhammer intending to use those, since some other brands are hitting the market with battery jackhammers now.
We've seen the pouch style lipo batteries for 50 years in a lot of cheap products from small to big and also in cell phones. I've had them in things as small as action cameras to lithium jump starters. I hope this is not a way to give a cheaper product by marketing it as some new technology. Li-po is better at high current but it is more dangerous than the li-ion batteries from what I understand. We see in the video that the total power in Wh is lower with the power stack compared to the 2ah regular battery to. The power stack will have its place for high current applications though if you need a small battery. Any larger battery 5ah and up is going to have a lot of high current ability anyway no matter li-po or li-ion when it comes to power tool appicatons.
They'll probably build in some kind of aluminum heat spreader to make the bigger versions.
15aH is the monster
@@nimernimer that's the one!
Thanks for the feedback.
Awesome. All my coworkers are getting powerstack and I kept thinking "those are lipo batteries arent they" and you just cleared that up for me. Now I want some, Thanks!
Thanks! Thanks for sharing.
Just bought a Craftsman cordless heat gun and made me wonder how the other brands would stack against that. The Craftsman is either on or off with no adjustment to trigger pull. 4ah battery lasts 15 minutes and runs an alleged 950°. Not sure how it stacks to the other brands, but realizing no temp setting (and not much power blowing the heat out) it sort of limits uses. I'd like to see how the other cordless heat guns compare. Adjustable heat levels, does it blow air pretty good or just a slight wisp, do they get to temps that are advertised and how long do they last on one charge?
As always, amazing work! Thank you for what you do!
Thanks and you are welcome! Thanks for the suggestion.
I bought the Milwaukee M18 heat gun and even with a 12ah battery it is so horrible I only use it if I have no access to 120V. I think that heat guns just need too much power to properly run on 18V. Love Milwaukee and have 30+ tools but this and the M12 vacuum upset me to even look at.
@@JayMoravec I know what you mean, I have B&D as well as Craftsman. Good for the DIY stuff I do but thought having a cordless heat gun would help with a lot of project too. No more bringing the small generator and 200 feet of extensions (only need about 50 but my luck...). And at 15 minutes per charge, I thought just 3 batteries and I'd be good for the day! Nope. Batteries last considerably less, plus there is next to no air movement. So the anticipated 45 minutes was closer to 10 and a lot of lost time going back home to drag out the usual gear while cursing myself for falling for "the x-ray vision specs from the back of a comic book". Lol!
Another reason why I love watching this channel as well as AVE. They are both informative, amusing and as well as showing the world that you don't have to be owned by a label.
Awesome job, thanks again for your help and hard work kind sir
Very welcome!
Please change your title from “Pouch Cell” and “Large Lithium” to “Lithium Polymer” versus “Lithium Ion” - the correct descriptions. Also, I understand why you tested it against the regular 2ah pack (because DeWalt used it as the comparison for their marketing) but it really should only be compared to an XR pack. You used the 5ah XR pack instead of a 2ah XR pack. The XRs use different (better and more expensive) cells that have higher discharge rates (better amperage). That should have been explained in your video. I only buy XR packs.
Also, Lithium Polymer batteries are almost exclusively used to power radio controlled electrically powered airplanes - because they are light weight, pack a lot of amp hours, and the expensive ones have incredible high amperage capability.
As always, love your concise, scientific and excellently produced video.
Used in jump starters, phones, tablets, and small devices with custom batteries that companies don't want users replacing so they can fill their greedy pockets.
Project Farm, your work, research and diligence are huge inspirations.
Thanks!
Reduced size and weight are the only factors making the "stack" a better deal. In every way the 5 AHr battery stomps the stack, especially in terms of price, because they are the same while the 5 Ahr provides more than twice the watt hours. I'll bet battery usable lifetime for the stack is atrocious compared to 5 AHr, too.
Thank you!
You’re incorrect. The power stack is supposed to have double the lifespan then the cylindrical counterparts.
@@juanc5149 I'd have to see an independent test to believe that clame. Normally Lipos have a much shorter life than a decent 18650.
@@juanc5149 I’ll believe it when I see it…. and see it repeated over time. We were told LED replacement lightbulbs would last much longer than incandescent but time has proven their cheap parts or manufacturing processes has produced bulbs that actually don’t last as long.
-Not all change is progress.
@@preachers4135 LEDs indeed last more than incandescent bulbs, but there are a lot of knock off LEDs like those cheap ones sold on ebay made with cheap drivers, insufficient heat dissipation and thin wiring that just won't last long. I have only replaced one of the LED bulbs at home since I made the switch 5 years ago.
The 5AH battery has the advantage of lower discharge rate per cell, thus generating less heat and surviving at a more constant rate. Even without recharging, I find my batteries still have power once they return to ambient temperature. Heat is the enemy of Li-ion. Sporadic use allows the cells to cool between trigger pulls.
Great information
Yep. Heat does kill the Li-ion. The phone chargers that allow you to lay the phone on a pad and recharge without actually plugging in your phone generates more heat in the battery and will shorten the lifespan on your phone battery. And since recharging generates heat, it's best if you charge your phone when it gets down as low as possible. Each cycle of heating the battery shortens it's lifespan. Generally around 500 recharges and the Li-ion battery will start to lose capacity at an exponential rate, and it counts as a cycle whether you start charging with 1% or 50% battery remaining. We've all seen this with our phones. Usually around 1.5-2 years of having a phone and the battery loses life really fast because that is when you'll get to around 500 recharges.
Thanks for the feedback.
I was thinking about the same. I would be interested to see if the power stack battery recovers a lot of power after it has been allowed to cool.
Also lower discharge per cell means a lower voltage drop, thus more power through the tool. You effectively cut the internal resistance of the battery in half.
Good morning Project Farm. I love watching your videos, is there any way you could test door hardening products?? You could try comparing different styles of deadbolts, replacing screws for longer ones, kick plates, “door armor” and other door hardening kits or “hacks”, by testing how much force it takes to push open doors with them installed. I think it’d make for a really interesting video. Instead of purchasing whole doors, you could make “mini-doors” surrounded by the same type of wood that frames regular doors, then put them under your press to test how much force it takes to break it open.
Thanks for the suggestion.
@@ProjectFarm I love this video idea, however, the "mini-doors" would throw all of the data off for products designed for full sized doors.
Also, the smaller a door is in width, the more of a gap there has to be between the door and the door jam, making most locking mechanisms unable to work properly. The only way around this would be to make the doors thinner, but doing that would make them too weak to stand up to any useful tests of the products/kits/hacks.
Unfortunately I think that making a full sized door mockup, and then doing only non-destructive tests would be the only way to do this video idea.
That being said, I love the video idea, so if you can find a way to make it work, please do!
Nice test with the standard 5ah battery added for performance and cost comparison. I held off on the 2ah PowerStack purchase since owning multiple 5ah batteries.
Since this video was made, I recently obtained the new 5ah PowerStack batteries for my 1/4” cordless router. I am very happy how they are working out with maintaining the cutting speed for smooth cuts. This router was purchased for dressing up existing in-place woodwork, a great setup. Happy to have waited for the 5ah PowerStack version to come out.
Thanks! Thanks for sharing.
Woo hoo! Excited for this one
Thank you and hope you enjoy the video!
Thank you so much for your dedication to others...🔋
The encased battery pouches generally have issues with swelling if not properly charged and discharged when compared to the cylinder (18650) batteries They cannot be left in a charger or may over swell and fail prematurely.
The extra cost and weight savings is not worth it in my opinion. I'd opt for the 5 amp battery every time.
Thank you!
This is the case with all lithium batteries. Its just that cylindrical cells can't swell lol. Also modern lithium chargers never keep charging after they are done, if they did then the company would get in trouble for selling actual fire hazards to people. Lithiums don't like to be stored fully charged either, so never keep them sitting at 100% for a long time ( like a few days to a week), it shortens their lifetime a lot actually. Storing them fully charged will cause them to swell guaranteed (if a pouch cell) and lose capacity over time.
We've used these types of stacked cells in r/c applications for a long time because of the weight advantage. Many of the cells end up swelling after relatively few discharges. Hopefully they are as reliable as the 18650 powered batteries. I wonder what the C-rating of the cells will be.
li-pos generally have much higher C ratings compared to even the best li-on 18650s so I'd hope for the price they're pretty high.
Yeah these are the same lipo batteries RCs use. Also the lithium jump starters. This is because they can put out a lot of amps. They have less capacity by size / weight. But prone to puffing if over discharged or left charged for longer than a few weeks.
It's also funny how lipo packs are a lot cheaper than 18650s. You can get a 4.0 AH 5s lipo (2X this capacity) for $50 so the markup on these is HUGE. But then again 10, 2500mah 35amp 18650s are $50 too. The markup on all the batteries is crazy really.
RC batteries tend to use a more volatile chemistry than most flat cells to let them crank out more power, but given the similar application I wouldn't be shocked if these tool cells were made *that* much more stable.
I just commented on the swelling aspect...I wonder how much room they left in those cases for the batteries to increase in size under heavy load. And yeah, the markup is insane, you could make your own pack for a fraction of the price.
We tried using them and switched back to our cell batteries as the puffy batteries burnt up,melted down or just didn't last nowhere near as long as the cell types did... They did have faster disharge rates which in turn meant more initial off the line speed but that went away quickly as they discharged rapidly..
Just chiming in to say how much I like your content. I don't even have that many tools, but I watch because it shows off real products in a reasonable test, without selling random garbage. Thanks!
You are welcome!
Looks like a very good choice of battery for a little impact driver. Keeps it lite, makes it smaller so it can get into tighter spaces, and will allow the tool short burst of maximum power to drive or remove fasteners. Id say they hit the mark with this one!
Thanks for the feedback.
The 5ah battery @ $70 gets my nod for the best value. I'd love to see a 5ah Powerstack tested against the standard 5ah pack. I wonder what the cycle life difference is between the 18650s and the pouches.
Thanks for the video idea.
I'd hate to see the price the normal ones are already enough $ Plus if your inclined enough they can be rebuilt for much less.
pouches are surplus parts from covid inventory repurposing
i think with good pouches it would be an even stronger battery
They haven’t released the 5ah power stack @lj prep
My RC plane batteries J get about 3 to 5 years out of. I retired a 10 year old M18 2ah battery this morning.I will no longer charge ...
Another outstanding video!
I think I'll be sticking to the 5Ah and 6Ah for the higher-load uses and keep the old 2Ah for light-duty, overhead/awkward positions (where the lighter overall tool would reduce fatigue) and FOR THOSE LAST TWO DANG FASTENERS. (I'm assuming that a few others here find that they often have to go find another battery _just_ when about to finish a job. Or, is that just me and my poor planning?)
Do I get a small whiff of Murphy's Law here?
Thanks! Thanks for the feedback.
thats why corded is le best
Outstanding! God bless you and your family and your channel.
Keep up the great work.
You are the only person out there, that is showing a true outcome.
Thanks, will do!
I would be interested to see a durability test of the pouch batteries, LiPo pouches are more sensitive to drops and punctures than Li-ion cells.
🔥 I'm thinking , the cheaper and more unreliable the better these days , you'll own nothing and be happy anyway if your around .. 😁👍
Great recommendation! Thank you
Fizz, bang, smoke. The ultimate result. Would be fun to see for sure.
They are extremely fun to poke though, just do it from a distance... I burned my leg a bit poking one next to me! It sprayed out violent fire the instant the nail penetrated. I was expecting a delay where I could run.
Lesson learned, haha
I’ve had pouch cells swell in the past. I’m curious if this will happen over the next year of genuine product usage by the consumer.
I've been binge watching your videos lately, great content! I'd really like to see miter saws and circular saws at some point. It'd get expensive, but some kind of tool cart from husky, Milwaukee, etc. would be interesting too....all of the casters and drawer slides seem to vary wildly in quality.
Thanks! Thanks for the suggestion.
Yes!!!!!! miter saws and circular saws!!!!!!!!
When I’m thinking of getting a new tool or anything even related, I always check your Chanel first to look for testing lol. Thanks! Your the best channel on RUclips!
Thanks and you are welcome!
God I love this channel. I buy almost everything based off his videos.
Thank you and hope you enjoy the video!
The old saying "There's no replacement for displacement" still holds true today. However, power density can can fool one to think otherwise. Stacked round batteries have a fairly low power density and will take up more space compared to layered flat packs. The cost difference is the real killer. While I suppose high volume contractors will want those batteries and will just pass the cost along, the average home user won't spend that.
Round cells are more serviceable- they're available as jellybean parts unlike the specific pouch cells used in the power stack branded pack.
@@myid9876543 on certain chinese websites you can get pouch batteries in any size you can imagine , dime a dozen
@@myid9876543 You can easily enough get various lipo cells of various sizes, with and without circuitry, Chinesium or well-made. You just gotta look for them as, well, lipo cells rather than "pouch packs".
18650 cells may also be much more durable than flat packs so I think that may be where the largest trade-off might be.
They will have to add amp hours if they want to sell it to contractors. I don’t know anybody that uses less that 5.0 AH batteries on job sites. I use 8.0 AH or above exclusively. We don’t have time for dead 2 AH batteries all day.
Yellow isn’t my color but hopefully they up the capacity so it’s more useful.
Project Farm should be a new federal agency. There should be a "PF" rating on all tools.
Thank you very much!
I've watched project farm for years! I've always love to just come to the channel just to see what's the best product. I should have said this years ago. Maybe you should do a Q&A video and let fans send things to a PO box. Kinda off topic but, it would be dope to send you some stuff
Thanks for being a long time viewer. Thanks for the suggestion for a Q & A video.
These are my favorite vids because I love and I have a dewalt so to so how different tools perform with different battery's was so informative and entertaining! Appreciate ya man!
Thanks!
Love the content! I was hoping you could do a review on different cone style cold air intakes. I know the stock replacement KNN failed horribly so im trying to find another brand that values quality a bit more
Thank you for the video idea!
PF: I’ve watched tons of power stack videos as I just bought a new impact and was looking into new batteries. You testing as always, is very multifaceted and appropriate.
Like others I think I’ll wait for now but it does show lots of room to develop a 4ah battery (my personal fav capacity) at far less weight in the future. Really cool battery tech but not able to be mass adopted yet.
avoid these batteries or cells. pouch cells are fragile to physical, temp, and charging abuse
Li-Po batteries are old tech that has been surpassed for quite a while now it’s the same battery tech that was in early smartphones that would expand after awhile
I think everyone has covered most of the comments. I just want to say how I really enjoy your videos and how to take the time to address comments. Happy New Year.
Thanks so much! Happy New Year!
I would like to see you test the thickness of a soap bubble from various dish soap manufacturers. Not that I care what the outcome would be but I would love to see how you would create a test to achieve that measurement. Awesome stuff as always and good luck to your Channel in 2022. ✨🎈
The thickness of a soap bubbles? Yeah I don't think that's something he'll do. Take that request to another experiment channel. TKOR might be inter in that. Or Tyler Tube.
If you want to know which soap cleans the best then that's something project Farm would do. But testing soap bubble thickness?! This must be your first time viewing this channel.
@@ThePrufessa I'm an ardent fan. It was just a silly joke..
Thanks!
@@Knapweed how was I supposed to know that?
I've been wondering when companies would start using these soft cells. I wonder how long they'll last before the batteries start puffing up.
Aren't these old tech? Phones have used them for years
They are more delicate than cell type batteries as there is no hard coating protecting them, but the power factor is usually better with less internal resistance allowing for faster amp drain on tools that need it.
Your concern was my first thought. These batteries will probably work good for a year and then see faster degradation than the standard Dewalt batteries with cylindrical cells due to the heat/gasses that quickly degrade pouch cells. I would rather have long term durability for my tools. Hopefully Dewalt thought of this.
From my experience with the soft cell packs, they are capable of higher amp loads, but that comes at the expense of more heat, and they don't really like heat much. They seem to destroy themselves faster because of this. They swell up and then it's game over. This is the reason I went back to the old lead acid battery jump starter packs. The lithium pouch versions work really well for a while, but then the packs swell from heat and they are garbage. It's hard to even find replacement pouches to fix the jump starter, which means more e-waste in the end. Maybe if they put in some kind of passive cooling they might hold up better.
They (pouch stack lipo) certainly provide more power in a smaller, lighter pack, but i take any bet they won't last as long, are more prone to overheating.
The older round-cell pack will take a lot more use, abuse, wear&tear before breaking, both mechanical and electrical.
I'm also concerned about their failure mode, should be more susceptible to fire, especially after suffering mechanical damage (everything will be used as a hammer at some point).
Interesting! The PowerStack is an expensive 2AH that weighs a bit less and is capable of higher discharge rates. The 5AH looks like the better choice for most applications, but I could see a 5 or 6 AH lightweight PowerStack being a seller if they can get that price down a bit.
Thanks for the feedback.
You could easily make your own 5Ah Powerstack using a 6S lipo battery. Just choose the 5 best cells and put them in your battery pack. If you can't find any Lipo batteries that are the proper size (I know they make short Lipos but not sure if they will fit) then you can order cells online
Thank you I run all dewalt cordless tools and was just thinking about switching up my power supply but I think I will wait I have plenty 5.0ah batteries. As a general contractor your videos are very helpful
Thanks! Glad to hear!
I swear your a mind reader I've been watching this channel for a few years and every time I'm in the market for something that needs replaced and then boom here's the video. Or maybe I'm just always buying more tools
Awesome! Thank you!
@@ProjectFarm I'm serious when I say that I was wanting some new adjustable wrenches for my step son since he has a little car boom, my lady got a new Jeep and wanted a jump box then boom, was at work doing some sheet metal work and used the right angle impact adapter wanted one for myself and that night seen the video, knife sharpener system, cordless ratchet, it's literally been within a few days of me thinking about a product and doing research and you post the video. It's literally been this way for about a year now. I thank you for all you've put into this channel making it my number one go to for a real unbiased test. I hope your channel continues to grow and spread the truth about products so people can get what they are actually looking for. Happy New Year and God bless you sir
The powerstack is only rated at like 1.7aH so it definitely is an impressive little battery. Bringing it up to 3aH would still keep it fair small and jus have the much longer run time. Its already pretty comparable to the 5aH except for run time of course, so making a 3aH powerstack would jus be that much better. Great vid as always Todd. This is the comparison vid i have been waiting for, getting down to the nitty gritty which is your specialty haha
Thanks! Thanks for sharing.
Powerstack: Short on run time, high in cost.
Great video. Could you test best corded drill please?
Thank you for the video idea!
Maybe he could also test the best cassette player too!
For its type and design the DA4031 from Makita has been the beast for many years. It is a workhorse. It will cruise through a workday that would leave a battery drill smoking and croaking.
Thank you!!! Paid 175 for 2 power stack yesterday! I like the lighter form factor for travel as moving away from Ni-CA I cannot check in the batteries in my toolbox and going to carry them in my already heavy backpack! Awesome videos!!
Thanks and you are welcome! Thanks for sharing.
Great review as usual. I do not think you should throw out the slowest cold temperature run as the battery pack heats up with use and you are testing cold performance. Consequently the longest time should be the first or coldest run and is the most important piece of comparative data.
Thanks! Thanks for the constructive feedback.
Personally, I would avoid these pouch type lithium ion batteries like the plague. As a Vaporer, 18650s are the way to go especially under high fast amp discharge; 18650s from Panasonic, Sony and Samsung are not only safe chemistry but they last a very long time years in fact. If there's a bad cell it can be replaced. Much easier than some off-sized pack.
Pouch cells will bury the 18650 in high amp discharge because of surface area... You will never see the 100amp+ discharge that pouch can deliver.
LiPo's mop the floor with 18650's when it comes to discharge rate and weight. That is why you see them in RC helicopters.
You’re a bit backwards but not entirely wrong. Polymer cells discharge very fast and very hard for long periods of time compared to modern 18650 cells. You can have almost the same current capabilities in half the size, but of course the draw back is polymer cells are more volatile, and need a more precise management system to monitor each cell very closely to prevent bulging. Replacing a cell would actually be easier on a polymer pack as each “pouch” is just two tabs that be cut and spot welded again. 18650 packs are spot welded as well but are a ton harder to fix. But when replacing cells you need to replace the whole pack anyways to avoid uneven charging/discharge rates so that throws it all out the window anyways.
Plus Sony no longer manufactures 18650 cells as far as I know. I think the last great cell they made was the vtc5
Lol this guy 🙄
It’ll be interesting to see how the larger form factor power stacks will perform when announced in a couple months or even a flexvolt.
Also it’s not that surprising for the power stack to run out faster in some situations since it’s technically on 1.5 AH
Thanks for sharing.
killed it! I watch a lot of your videos and I've never seen one that I didn't like, .... some are a little long winded but this one was particularly well done with a lot of very detail, accurate and specific information including disassembling the battery packs.... A lot of work. Great job!
Thanks and you are welcome!
This is one foreboding bad move. Pouch style are less robust and more prone to damage. 18650's are good because of their individual metal containment and air between them for better cooling. These batteries will NOT have the 10 year life span the 18650 batteries do.
Great feedback! Thank you
True. They sould have gone for the 21700 instead.
@@Hammarsand that's what big dewalt's and milwaukee's use for some extra oomph.
@@dimitar4y Yeah. More power and output. Thats All you want 😎
@StringerNews1EVs aren’t exactly pouch style batteries right? Is a iPhone a pouch style battery?
The power stack is definitely a niche for people who value the smaller footprint and weight but don't need huge capacity, it will definitely sell.
Your results do mimmick alot of information I've seen on the torque test channel where basically the larger capacity packs just end up providing more torque with impacts, the 5ah is usually pretty consistent though because I believe they are still using Samsung 30T 21700 cells which are some of the best mass produced cylindrical batteries for high discharge applications.
The 5amp are 18660 cells the 6amp and up, along with the slim 4amp are 21700 cells.
Thanks for the feedback.
@@nwngunner thanks for the clarification
"lipo's" are WAY cheaper than cylindrical. Those particular lipos are wholesale two to five dollars a per cell. As a side note they should not be flexed as you did when you disassembled the pack. They are also capable exceedingly high discharge rates of 10C or better IF they are of good quality. If they are good quality lipos they can be charged to 80-90% in 15 minutes. Lipo's do have a shorter life and heat shortens their life dramatically. They also should not be stored for any period of time with more than 50% charge which they will maintain for an exceedingly long time.
These cells are not "WAY cheaper", soft pouch and cylindrical cells, depending on what market demands pouch cells can be cheaper on any given day than the equivalent 18650 cells.
C ratings and capacity are a trade off, you won't find a high C rated battery with a high energy density, it's just not how battery chemistry works. 18650 C ratings are only limited for long term output and that's purely a heat issue and even prismatic cells can't maintain their rated C value indefinitely.
Store batteries between 40% and 70% capacity.
This is the only good comment thread here explaining WHY. Pouch cells are LIPO batteries, just in a different shape. They have different charge/discharge rates. DEWALT IS JUST SLAPPING A HIGH PRICE ON THESE AND USING A TERM SIMPLETONS WILL THINK THEY ARE GETTING SOMETIING BETTER. Absolute ripoff is what these are for the average user.
@@Sonex1542 not necessarily, it's possible dewalt had these custom made to their spec, if they went for high discharge rate AND a *relatively* high capacity this would also dramatically increase the price of the cells. There's so many factors here it's hard to say if these truly are a rip off. You'll be paying a premium no doubt but it's hard to say if they're actually taking higher margins.
Thanks for sharing.
You have the best videos on testing absolutely everything! I'm hooked on your channel! I've watched every video a few times. I highly appreciate all your vids! Btw I think you need a holiday! So much work and vids! Cheers 🙂👍👍👍
Thanks so much!
how much for the 5 ah battery ?, plus id be curious to know how much using a brushless impact would change things
$138 for 2 (not cheap)
I bought a two pack from Facebook marketplace for $100 last week. I'm sure that person stole it from Home Depot or something but I figured someone was going to buy it, might as well have been me.
It does make quite a difference, particularly with the new subcompact Atomic line of impacts. The DCF823b Atomic 3/8" stubby impact will pull a rear caliper bracket bolt on a GMC 3500. It won't with a regular old 3 ah battery, and takes a bit longer with a 5 ah, although it will break the bolt loose eventually.
Look for the 2 tool deal, like tool barn or acme websites, two -5amp hour batteries with a charger, bag, and a good 887 impact tool ! $199.
The polymer pouch cells are less expensive to manufacture than the 18650 cells which is not reflected in the retail price. Maybe there is more "protection" electronics.
The polymer pouches and expand quite a bit it over charged. The housing needs to be sized accordingly. If not, the additional pressure could cause a fire.
Great information! Thank you
Yeah, and once they expand they lose performance as all the internal sheets separate... so time will tell how these last in the field.
Dewalt claims to have solved this problem.
This smells like a way to stop consumers from repairing their old drill batteries with 18650 cells
Unfortunately that’s just the future we’re living in.
Someone will eventually make better tools that are actually worth paying out the nose for. There’s a market for it.
Great point!
it is not even cost effective to repair them with the premium cells they came with unless you have an extreme hook up on cells. With the cheaper places to just buy new batteries it is not worth it.
You can purchase pouch cells from many outlets on the Internet. Each pouch usually has it's own charge controller (BMS)under some tape at the front and can be swapped if they try to use a proprietary BMS. The main issue with pouch batteries is bending, puncturing or just manufacturing irregularities make them extremely volatile and when they go up in flames it is catastrophic. The 18650's are the same battery composition but they have vents in the caps that make them a lot less likely to go up in flames.
I saw these and immediately thought project farm. I love these videos it's a great feeling knowing exactly what you can expect before buying something
Thanks!
Was there a significant difference in recharge times between the lithium cell packs and the lithium pouch pack? If the pouch pack can recharge faster, that may help offset the cost a little as you would need less of them overall for continuous use.
Battery charge rate is determined by the charger, the current level to fill the capacity of the pack. It does not vary based on which lithium cell type is inside. - with one exception, that if the minimum cutoff voltage threshold is different from the different protection circuit, if you get less out of the battery before it shuts off, there's less to put back in charging it.
recharge times are dependent on the charger not the battery in this case. To fix this issue you need a 2nd battery instead so you can rotate
The problem with pouches is the failure rate over cells. Anything with a custom size like that has far fewer working hours on its design so the ability to catch problems and potential catastrophic failure modes is diminished.
Personally I'm sticking with the cell design as the risk doesn't out weight he rewards.
The pouches do have a tendancy to swell when off gassing from an overcurrent or impact/crush incident, I think I'll stick to the cylindrical cell design.
Thanks for the feedback.
Reason I stuck with the old 18v ones till recent. Just bought the adapters and slapped in the lithium batteries. Waiting till the bugs get worked out on some of the newer tools and these pouch batteries before I switch.
My experience with pouch cells in the R/C world, is that they tend to swell up and leak. ( especially after a few ground impacts)
i think the cylindrical cell is tougher. But the pouch cell lighter is probably more efficient in discharge rate compared to the cylindrical cell which means more initial power.
Great feedback! Thank you
I believe the R/C pouch batteries also had a reputation for violently catching fire while charging.
the timing for this video coming up on my feed is perfect. i had no idea which one to get
Glad to hear!
I’m an electrician. I work on job sites every day. So I’ve seen the abuse that cordless tools take from guys and in my trade and other trades. And these tools take a beating. Being dropped from very high heights, drained to zero, and being used in extreme climates. I also have a large electric RC collection that use lipo batteries. Lipo batteries when abused can burn you house down with little warning. Each cell needs to be balanced. Cells cannot be damaged from drops causing a pouch to rupture and burst into flames. The old Samsung phone that would blow up in your pocket. No thanks. Wouldn’t want these batteries in my truck tool box baking in the sun working in the desert. Or charging at home or on the job unattended. There’s guys that sometimes leave thier batteries on a charger all day. I’m not going to trust the on board electronics in the battery or the charger. And if a guy is complaining about weight of a tool because the battery is heavy. Then get a desk job.
Thanks for sharing.
Dewalt claims to have solved all of these problems with the new battery.
@@asificam1 ni-mh doesn't like high power drain applications, and voltage is not as constant as nicad or lithium-ion. Power density is also much less than lithium-ion.
@@asificam1 going to bulkier, less power dense batteries, that ouput less current, and have smaller electrode surface area seeems to be the exact opposite of what every powertool manufacturer is doning and the exact opposite of the whole powerstack concept.
You want larger electrode surfaces to move more current, at 18-20v so modern tools have more power in smaller, compact, lighter pacakages.
Just going to ni-mh would double the weight alone.
I literally counted and can see 5 18650 cells how did you get 6?
Before even watching I'm guessing it's only 10-20% better than old and as such not worth the extra price. We shall see.
Great job!
@rob venom agreed. Not worth the price. You can get 2 regular batteries for that price and have twice the capacity of the flat stack.
This dude is the gold standard as far as objective testing goes. I trust whatever he says.
Thanks!