"I’m glad someone is finally fighting for us normal people thx for calling him out I’m truly honored to be apart of this righteous battle" Thats an actual comment lmao 😂😂. I can understand the sentiment but damn, just straight up demonizing the other party....thats a bit too much I think. Edit: Ah.....wait. I don't understand. Was that guy (in the video) trolling or something?? Damn, now I'm confused. At first I thought he was criticizing but the way he says it makes it hard for me to trust if he's serious or not. Plus its also 1st april so...lol?? Edit 2: And also yes, ratatos mah man, you gotta move on, I think. I don't think there will be a consensus. Tho compared to the last video you seem to have actually gotten your point across to at least a few more people I think. I don't see how much more you can make yourself clear than in this video.
The linked response video is almost certainly an April Fools joke. It has to be. Or I just don’t understand how someone can misunderstand this series of videos so drastically
If the dictionary says he used the wrong word, then all the points made in his argument immediately lose all credibility too. Pretty sure that's in the rule book for Internet arguments
Honestly, I couldn't believe the amount of people who refused to acknowledge that some very obvious examples of cheesing were cheesing. There was a whole lot of slippery slope argumentation of "but then there isn't an obvious cut-off line for what cheesing is so you could argue doing anything is cheesing." But I mean, yeah, it's subjective. Or more like, a gradient from "virtually no cheese" to "a little bit cheesy" to "super cheesy strategy." The subjective nature of what's cheesing or not is also why it doesn't make sense to tell anyone their win is "illegitimate" for cheesing, because yeah, you can be that guy who says you didn't REALLY beat the boss unless you're SL1 fist only no dodge rolls, and that's stupid. A lot of weird sophistry that came off as "everyone must validate my chosen method for killing the boss" which is like, okay... But I'm not going to lie to you and say if I'd be satisfied with *myself* if I used what I consider a very cheesy strategy, especially if I hadn't discovered it for myself. Am I elitist because I don't want to do what amounts, to me, as trivialising the game's challenge? Okay.
Hey Ratatoskr, I think I might have some insight to your very last question. If you even end up seeing this. What might be upsetting to people is that even though you are explaining that playing blind is just a option the vibe you give off is that it's the better way to play. The way you speak is very calculated, deliberate, and with alot of conviction. Which could come off as arrogant or condescending to some people. I see it as a way for you to fully articulate your thoughts but it could be abrasive to some people in certain situations like this one. When it comes to knowledge about video games we want someone we respect and trust and who has good opinions on the material. You are great at that. On the flip side when it comes to picking sides on issues outside of gaming all of these people who respect you and your content want you to think their way is the best way. Which as you know having thousands of different opinions from us that's impossible for you. Ways to avoid this, idk I've spent 10 years in management but this is always an issue. You could either avoid taking hard stances on decisive issues like this or when you do try to understand both sides of the argument. Yes there might be people out there who would enjoy playing the game blind like you suggest. But what if one of the people who tried that was one of the people who would have had more fun looking everything up? It's an impossible situation. I think the best argument you could have made in this situation is this. You can't unsee but you can always look. Play blind at first and then if you don't like it look up what you want. I think you implied this in your video but you didn't outright say it. I don't have an opinion myself on this I just play video games and enjoy them lol. Just my two cents on the topic.
Yes! I'm in agreement with everything here! Also, I love The Witcher 3, and everybody will not agree, but I loved the recommended level system. It gave me an idea of which quests, areas and things I can do at what time. That's a game I didn't look up anything for (of course a much much easier game and combat isn't even comparable and looking up stuff isn't even needed) but ultimately just for builds or playing through it you can still look stuff up and I didn't. My friend and I both enjoyed playing that blind. We both are new to From games with Elden being our first and both of us missed the tutorial, ended up at places where we couldn't do anything and ultimately it was super uncomfortable getting a hang of the game. When we looked up beginner tips, tricks, build guides from fextralife we found our footing and didn't need any more guides or help. We both don't look up ANYTHING to do with bosses because to us bosses are special especially knowing From's legacy so we want it to be special. And imo a lot of the new players are intimidated by this elitism that exists from certain veterans telling us different things. So when you gave the example of your friend I couldn't relate. When I didn't relate I just understood that the advice was meant for other players and not for me or my friend, but a lot of other players perceived Rat's words to imply that the game is supposed to be like that and they're playing a different game one that's less enjoyable or wrong.
I think people get butt hurt over the slightest thing and automatically assume whatever is said is a shot at them. Just play the game how you want, but it doesnt hurt to try to play a diff way either and try it out. If it doesnt tickle your fancy then play the way you always do. No big deal, but people are overly sensitive over games of all things hahahahahaha. Its a game have fun regardless of what anyone says. Ehhh im not disagreeing with you, but i also dont think Ratatoskr has to change or cater to the individuals who will find a problem with everything anyway. He spoke clearly and it all made sense, if someone takes issue with it then so be it, or they probably need to clear the wax out of their ears cause they didnt listen. they might have heard what he said but they didnt listen to what he said. Well Enjoy elden ring, i sure did, and at the end of the day, thats really what the dev's want anyway.
TL;DR the world is getting increasingly more populated by thin-skinned insecure overreacting little crybabies, so don't be surprised at the butthurt leveled at confident and strong opinions.
At some point you shouldn't have to cater to oversensitive people. Which doesn't mean you should just not care about what other people might think, you should take that into account, but you should also know that no matter what, someone will be offended if they want, and the only way to avoid it is to not say anything. Which as a content creator, wouldn't be such a good idea. He actually said that in the video, if someone hears his advice of not looking things up but isn't enjoying the game, they can start looking things up at any moment. Or if it's someone who already knows they really hate not looking things up, they can just ignore his advice. He doesn't need to explicitly say those things, because they're obvious, and they might be counterproductive to people who would benefit from following his advice but just might take a bit longer to realize how fun they actually find it.
The last section honestly hurt a bit. Just keep being you, you've made yourself as clear as possible without insulting anyone. No time for bad faith actors that simply refuse to listen.
Yeah what they're doing is speech censorship and thought policing. Telling us we're not allowed to say something and also not allowed to have opinions. Which obviously stems from their insecurity about their mechanical disability and bad reaction times, which in turn makes them unable to beat a mere game.
It's literally "I got offended by your opinions. So you shouldn't say it anymore." hehe I'll spam git gud to every fool from now on. It'll be fun to see them rage
It's like these people don't understand where the word "Spoilers" comes from, and its connotations. How dare he suggest that things might be more enjoyable fresh?
This is why I watch your videos. Not just because of the content, but how you strive to be clear with your views and wording. I recently watch another RUclipsr with an unpopular take, and the way he responded was pretty... bad. Definitely could have been worse, but he didn't take it well. This is how follow up videos are made to clarify points. Well done.
His definition of "cheesing" is way too vague. If it's cheesing to use powerful mechanics that kill bosses quickly, is it also cheesing to keep playing and come back and fight a boss when you've leveled up? If you've leveled up enough, the boss will be melted just as easily, especially in the early game. People refer to cheesing as breaking things like enemy AI and positioning because otherwise the concept of cheesing becomes so arbitrary that any mechanic that the another person doesn't like will be called cheesing.
@@joelnelson4228 I think that's the nature of the word "cheese" though. Most people will disagree as to what cheesing is because they'll draw the line somewhere beyond what they themselves do, mainly because, as was pointed out in the video, most people view cheesing as a bad thing. I think the vague definitions works because it allows each individual to draw the line where they want. If someone wants to draw the line at game glitches, they can. If someone wants to draw the line where you mentioned (coming back at a higher level, etc.) then I guess they can. I'd disagree wholeheartedly, just like I do with Ratatoskr. I actually think the example of using a big spell with regenerating FP isn't cheesing. I think if you put the work in to find it, you get to use it. TLDR: I think a vague definition of "cheese" is fine because I don't think you'd get a clear consensus as to what would be considered cheesing and what wouldn't. At least, not until the Word Gods put it in an actual dictionary.
I mean, yes. Overleveling is a kind of cheese. That's why you're OVER-leveled. Having fought a max level character in DS3 that had only unupgraded weapons against my level 65 with only +6 Raw weapons; the damage difference wasn't off by much but I had to hit him so many more times because of his huge health pool. So by his standards, Dragonslayer Armor wouldn't be anywhere near as hard as it would've for myself. You still take away from learning the mechanics of the fight when all you have to do is face tank and spam light attacks.
@@milesdp1990 But it also means that engaging in this debate is meaningless because everyone is running with their own definition of the term. At least if you're talking about things that glitch the game, you can clearly define a glitch. If we are including real game mechanics then cheese ultimately means "anything that I think is too easy". So depending on who you ask, everyone has cheesed this game unless the only way you play is naked SL1 with your bare fists.
@@withoutatrace7711 Who gets to define when someone is over-leveled though? Plently of people play at level 1. Are all players cheesing then unless they are level 1?
Not sure if anyone noted this before. Fighting Cowboy, makes damn detailed walkthroughs. He has always stated quite strongly that you should not utilize his walkthrough until you have played the game blind at least once. He wants his guides to be post first play through as a means to Platinum or secure missed items. Similar to the message delivered here.
There’s not a sentence to be said that everyone will get behind. How helpful your suggestions are is entirely dependent upon how your audience applies that information and how we apply that information alludes to the scope of our imagination (at least momentarily). I, for one, appreciate the effort, time and thought you’ve put into your content. Thanks and Cheers!
I agree with this statement entirely. Brandon Darkis said it all. Practically nothing else here for me to say. Someone out there will clash with an opinion you may have and react in the only way they grew up knowing. Whether with or without regard of the intent and meaning behind said opinion.
I think this point that @Brandon Darkis is making is a good one to get behind. Not everyone will agree with what you say, and also, even people who agree with you usually, don’t always agree with you. I think the comments you highlighted at the end of the video are just a natural consequence of those two facts, paired with the points you’ve already made about feeling like you didn’t communicate your points properly in the first video. The best advice I can give, @Ratatoskr, is to do your best to not worry about what those people said before. I’m sure some of them who end up watching this video will have changed their minds, and those that don’t are probably wrong about their use of the term “gatekeeping” in that context. I definitely have disagreed with some of your points in the past, and I did disagree with your definition of “cheesing” in the last video, but I do find myself agreeing much more with the points you made in this video. You’re really not wrong, and I think you did a very good job explaining yourself in this video.
cheesing is bypassing gameplay mechanics. the degree to which you do so is a gradient. and the definition lies somewhere between avoiding the enemy's swing by jumping and glitching the godskin's AI to be turned off. each person picks a different point to define cheesing and in most of these arguments they pick a point on the gradient just to left of whatever activity they are doing. This is because in there head YOUR definition of cheesing devalues their efforts if their activity is considered cheesing. these people will always devise a justification to argue that what they did was fine. And it is fine! its also probably cheese strats. These things are not mutually exclusive.
Avoiding a hitbox isn't bypassing the mechanics-in fact it's the exact opposite. If an attack would have damaged you, but you did something to avoid that damage, you are interacting with the mechanics, as intended. 'Bypassing' the attack would mean standing in a place where it simply can't hit-like out of bonds, or in a part of the arena the boss can't reach-or prevent the attack from happening in the first place by, for example, manipulating-or outright breaking-the A.I. One of these is definitely cheesing, the other is definitely not, and there isn't really much of a gradient to it-either the mechanics are working as intended, or they aren't.
Yes, this bothers people more though when they place validation from external sources above their own internal principles and choices. I don’t think it’s even worth reasoning with such arguments. Brings to mind this Mark Twain quote: “Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
Exactly. Cheese is bypassing the gameplay mechanics. It doesn't matter what your method is, so long as it results in you bypassing the mechanics of the game it's cheesing.
Jumping to avoid an attack is not on the gradient of cheese. Should you just get hit and die? There’s many attacks in this game that basically require jumping to avoid.
From what I understand, the uses of the term "cheesing" comes from the fighting game community back in the 90s and was generally used to refer to situations like relying on a character with an infinite combo to win. I heard a story about Primal Rage where if the devs at one point patched teh game where if you won using Riptor's near infinite combo the game would display "Cheesey" instead of "You Win." The thing is, though, Riptor thematically was meant to have huge long combos, that was the design of the character. But it was still cheese.
In the same era, casters were using cheesing to describe early game army rushes in RTS games. There is no one place the word comes from, and there certainly is not a single definition of it either.
You're so patient and reasonable in your response! This channel is a real breath of fresh air. You're a model for how all disagreement and opinion should be presented. Also you aren't gatekeeping at all. Gotta keep in mind that a certain number of commenters didn't watch the entire video or are literally children. For what it's worth, I disagreed with you at the start of part 1 but realized by the end our opinions had more in common than not, because I listened to your points! If a commenter didn't pay attention to the first video idk why they would to this second video
I watched your "play as a wretch" video before the game came out and agree with a lot of the points made. I started as vagabond but approached the entire game with no guides, doing this meant i had to search everything, I'm sitting at about 240 hours now and still have not yet beat the game (I have some of lake of rot, deeproot depths to search and I am on godfrey as my next boss.) This is solely due to fully exploring the environment, double and triple checking that i am not missing anything in an area before moving on. I appreciate the advice you gave to not look things up as much as possible, it made this game a rewarding adventure. (I've only ever played DS3 through once, as a background).
I tried that but i had to look up some of the npc quests because i would rater quit playing before i search the whole map for one guy that moved places after like 20h of gameplay. Then again maybe i don´t deserve the cool questline if i don´t find every single step by myself. But fuck i would have never looked for these people in those places, like ever.
I did the exact same thing, and was mesmerized about how quick people were finishing the first play through, just now recently I understand why, and it's cool you are going the same path
@@Spinexus nah don't feel bad about that shit. Some of that stuff is easy to miss. I like to try and do as much as I can on my first playthrough, but I always end up missing some stuff and then look it up on my 2nd run. Definitly doesn't mean you don't still deserve the experience. The beauty of Fromsoft games is you can play them however you want.
@@Spinexus Same here, tbh. I done most of my run blind (currently at 130h against the Fire Giant and a great of secondary content delt with), but I knew there were some things that were missing for a couple quest lines that I either missed because I passed by an area earlier in the game and there was nothing (Hyetta, for example) or because the next step was just impossible to guess and you justs had to really just stumble upon it (Ranni quest line when you've already progressed on and did some stuff beforehand). I tried to avoid looking at the wiki as much as possible, but there are points at which I had to because it was driving me insane to follow what I was being told to do and there was nothing because I had explored too much x) TL;DR - Don't be ashamed of looking stuff up when you're stuck and don't shame people for doing it either. Have fun fellow tarnished
Man, I felt that you were on point with everything you said. You were well pondered on the points about gatekeeping and interacting with the games mechanics. Your argument on "cheesing" was actually pretty clear and fair.
I think going in blind is a valuable experience to have in these games, and most games at that. Failing and trying again is an important part of the learning process, as far as the intended gameplay loop is concerned. Now I like to go into these games mostly fresh myself, but I'm not afraid to look some things up. For example in my primary playthrough of Elden Ring I have done some light searching of the wiki to determine if there are more powerful spells or weapons to be found later that are within the weapon class I am using. Specifically I have searched up incantations, some weapon types, and tips for how game mechanics work. I also do look up character locations so I can try and avoid missing out on questline steps, but I've already missed several minor opportunities anyway by getting further in the game. So I guess you could say I'm somewhere in the middle on this particular topic.
I think this is the best stance to take. Everything is always on a sliding scale and it's different for every person. It really comes down to what you are doing to yourself by looking things up. Personally I've looked through the armor page on the wiki to see what outfit I liked best and see how far in the game it was. Is that likely to ruin my experience of the game, no. But if I was looking up which armor has the best stats the earliest it maybe could. Or I looked up how to swing left on the horse. Is that making the game less fun. No, in fact the game probably should mention somewhere that you can swing with the left LB/L1 even though it unequips your left hand weapon. You just have to be aware that looking things up has a potential to lower your enjoyment of the game the same way it could increase it.
I think both sentiments shouldn't be taken too much at heart. His advice about the valuable experience, to me at least, is a no-brainer irl when it comes to life skills and social experience. With video games, one should try to take it as another perspective, not a black and white situation. Make it part of your arsenal. In my case, looking up stuff on the wiki will not in any way deter my experience in playing the game, but watching videos is different. I am always saving up money and carefully curate which game I'd buy, and for those I'm interested in but decided to not buy I'd watch the gameplay/playthrough/let's play online. Because I've been doing that for over a decade now, and became a habit, it almost always (sort of) gives me a feeling of satisfaction as if I was actually playing the game. Hence why text spoilers don't affect me most of the time, either I forget or I have zero context at all pertaining the information.
Honestly what I took from that first video was “play how you want, but I strongly recommend at least trying to engage with these boss fights because you may be missing out on an enjoyable experience” Which is how I play these games. Eventually, if a boss just isn’t clicking for me, I might “cheese” or use strats that don’t engage just to move on. But I try to engage with it a handful of times first. I actually got so shook by Margit at first that there was a chunk of the game where I would walk through fog, immediately summon ashes and use ranged without even knowing what the bosses were. I regret it now, because a bit later a totally unexpected fight took me down to the wire without those things on hand, I barely won, and I realized “holy crap this is why I’ve always loved these games, I’ve been missing out. And stopped doing that. However I may still use those in frustrating fights after some attempts. Which is fine. But I just can’t imagine having much fun running in and doing azure comet without ever even seeing what the boss is about. On the flip side, I could see myself doing that (if I even had the stats), after so many attempts just to move on. So I get your point, I experienced it first hand, and mostly agree. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with doing these things, but I do think people may be missing out if they go there right away. Ultimately though if you do find that fun, go for it.
“play how you want, but I strongly recommend at least trying to engage with these boss fights because you may be missing out on an enjoyable experience” The problem with this is that you have to research before fighting a lot of bosses if you want to do that. Bosses like the misbegotten or Renalla get completely destroyed by fast weapons. Other bosses like the crystalians get destroyed if you have a weapon that can poise break easily. I'm on my second playthrough and decided to use the claws (which I missed on my first playthrough) and have enough int and faith to use the weapon enchants. A lot of bosses just die, bosses that I had a lot of trouble, like the abductor virgins, I killed them with no problem at lvl 38 with my new build. I don't have a specialized build, I still haven't read any guide or any kind of information, I just did what it felt interesting. Even if you ignore 90% of the things you can do, there are a lot of bosses that you won't be able to engage just because they are weak to your build.
Some people might enjoy building a powerful character and melting a boss's health bar though. I have played these games both ways and I enjoy both for different reasons. If we're going to argue that reducing the challenge of the game for yourself is going to make for a less enjoyable experience, that would imply that those who fight naked without weapons or levelling up are enjoying the game the most. Hell in all games you could have melee builds that were cheesy as hell, good STR builds were basically Easy Mode Number 2 in DS1, after good INT builds, and those were super popular
Looking stuff up is actually what got me to love the series. When I was playing Dark Souls the first time, I was dying a lot and never knew what to do so I gave up. Years later I found the walkthrough from EpicNameBro and after watching the whole thing, I finally knew how to play the game and played the game on my own to completion. Now I've beaten every Soulsborne without looking most stuff up for the sake of challenge. It was definitely more satisfying without looking it up but the elation I felt when beating the first game despite watching a walkthrough has yet to be matched... Beating the Bloodborne dlc got pretty close though, lol
Yeah I usually try to go "spoiler free" always when a new Souls launches, but then I see some cool weapon on an invasion or something and I have to look it up.
this proves that the no-looking stuff up- advice is fine, because if you take the advice, notice you are losing interest, then look stuff up if you want. If you don't take Ratatoskr's advice, look stuff up, and start losing interest, then there could be solutions if it turns out you enjoy not looking up stuff more, but that may involve making an entirely new character, or more minor things like not AI-freezing a boss and finding that you enjoy it more.
Pretty much how i am, i was actually losing interest in trying to play blind to where i had to make excuses to play it, so i said fuck it, watched some videos, cheeses, guides, tips, lores, memes, etc, and I've been playing nonstop.
I took your advice to play wretch and tried to remain as outside-info free as possible and it's been an amazing experience, so thank you! As someone who actually appreciates advice on how to maximise my enjoyment, being told "play however you want" is useless.
I also followed that advice, and it worked for me... for about 2-3 hours, as I had horrible luck with item drops in the early game and only completed a competent set of armor / weapons 7-8 hours in the game. When everything can one-shot you and you have to rollspam all multiple enemy encounters, it gets annoying quick. Once I gathered a decent set of armor and leveled to around level 12 was when I actually started having fun in the game, as it felt I have a fighting chance and don't have to cheese out enemies one by one. And then around level 35 I figured out I didn't euqip a single talisman, so that turned the next 20hours of gameplay into easy mode for me :D...
I got to the souls franchise from watching speedruns of Dark Souls 1, 2, Demons Souls and Bloodborne. I played all four after seeing the "fastest" way to beat them and obviously this did influence my playthroughs. I enjoid all of the games and have done repeat playthroughs for all apart from DS2 and Demons Souls. DS3 was the first one I got to play blind since it got released after I got introduced to the series and I was able to play it immeadetly unlike Bloodborne, which I got a year or so after release. I played DS3 by itself more than I had played the rest of From Softwares titles solely from falling in love the way discovering stuff works in these games. The same happened with the dlcs, sekiro and now Elden Ring. All I can say after these personal experiences is that I wholeheartedly agree to suggesting people to try playing the games blind, since it is a great personal enjoinment factor. Me and you suggesting to play the game a certain way doesn't fall under gatekeeping in a snive way, we just want to pass on a sentiment we think someone will resonate with and hopefully have a better experience due to trying it. There's zero interest of devaluing others experiences, the interests are in igniting that same passion and enjoiment for the games I found trying trying them blind.
6:24 I never actually got to experience it but there’s a channel named extra credits that explains this perfectly, they explained it using darksouls 2 and defined the levels of cheese as how a player might pick their difficulty setting in any other game. The game is not hard not easy it is merely difficult and the way you address that difficulty could come down to your power or your ingenuity and both become valid if you can THINK of a way to beat the boss or area. It’s about the creativity you can come up with even if it’s simply standing in a window and launching arrows and an enemy that was places in the perfect spot.
That's the video that finally convinced me to buy SOTFS after completing DS1, and I followed that guide till the sunset staff except for the sniping part. Made that game much more tolerable with all its bullshit.
You recommended that we start the game as a Wretch; something I would NEVER do. Not because I would find it too difficult, but I like starting from a roleplaying perspective and Wretch doesn't interest me as a result. For example if I play a priest character, I eschew all bladed weapons. Paladin characters don't use bows or crossbows. That's how I do it. I only ever took your suggestion as just that, a suggestion; and as far as I was concerned it was a very good idea and I hope a lot of people gave it a go. It simply wasn't for me, but that had no impact on my respect for you as my favourite Souls RUclipsr. I don't see how anyone could possibly interpret anything you say as judgemental or an order, unless they were not listening.
@@ratatoskr6324 So then, you have to ask why a person clicks on a video making a suggestion for an interesting way to play with such an attitude going in. What are they hoping to get out of the video if their comment is “I’ll do whatever I want” 😂. Normally a thinking person only engages with the arguments of others out of interest, to broaden their perspectives and/or change their opinions.
@@ratatoskr6324 that was also my reaction to the Wretch video. I'll do what I want... Which is following your suggestion because I had the same thought^^ I don't think I would have ever created my beautifull dual magic greatsword Int build otherwise Your videos are great, keep up the work!
I'm a min maxer at heart I didn't agree with anything in the wretch video because its kind of shit for min maxing (confessor is the worst though). That being said i don't give two shits what people decided to do either.
I agree with Scott Jund a lot. His point is exactly how I feel. "Cheesing" is just creative strategy and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The issue isn't "cheese", or creative strategic solutions, it's the negative attitude towards those things. Some people love to "play smarter not harder" and they get a lot of value and entertainment out of that. Other people love the mechanical challenge of doing things the "normal" way. Instead of yelling at each other about it we should appreciate that From has built a game that so seamlessly supports all these play styles.
I see nothing "creative" in using a small set of tools found by other people over and over due to dev oversights. If YOU found a cheese, you are creative. If you googled it up - you are not. And if one and the same strat can be used to cheese 2/3 of the bosses, this strat is actively disruptive towards the game flow and should be countered, preferably by modifying boss behaviour and issuing punish moves for its application.
@@Rastrelly The point is that it's not anyone's business to judge. It's only the dev's job to interfere if the strategy ruins the fun for those who use it (e.g., by being so easy to do and find out about it becomes the universally accepted strategy, but isn't engaging to do) or for others who have to suffer through it (PVP abuse, co-op that takes gameplay away from others without their consent or control). It doesn't matter as long as cheesing isn't so braindead obvious as to be the thing everyone just does, but regardless, there is a fundamental sense of entitlement in anyone thinking their opinion of how someone else chooses to spend their own time is important enough to be blasted all over the internet.
@@Rastrelly Just curious here, but what strategy other than the comet azur combo and that is not a clearly unintended glitch do you consider to be cheesing?
13:47 Best I can tell, most people aren't willing to drop their previous experience and accumulated outlooks for a fresh discussion. Perhaps because asking someone to do so is equivalent to removing the buttresses of their position on the matter, which is easily construed as an attempt to place yourself at advantage for whatever argument. Or perhaps that's a stretch idk In short I don't think they're arguing with you, or really even talking to to you. They're engaging with the discussion that's been going on for over a decade, on the terms that they've come to understand it
I've not seen someone explain it quite as well as you have just now, a lot of what people are describing as "cheesing" are terms made in really old fromsoft games like Dark Souls one or two back when accessibility to a higher amount of playstyles wasn't really possible, so essentially you would have to find cheese tactics to make yourself more powerful, where as in Elden ring the game literally gives you the option to be overpowered in PVE but not PVP, I think that's what's holding him up is not being able to recognize that this is a totally new game and it's not a Souls game, so the term cheesing needs to be updated to a new platform with new characteristics being defined for what cheesing or cheating is
@@roberthouse4817 cheesing is a pretty old term, though. Its usually pretty easy to understand what constitutes a cheese strat. Engaging in a strategy that stun locks a boss for the entire fight? Cheese. Attacking a boss from a spot he cant reach you? Cheese. Prepping an equipment set up or buff and attack combo that completely melts a boss in seconds? Cheese. Poisoning a boss and just evading its attacks until it runs out of hp? Cheese. Just using a strong or imbalanced weapon or recieving aid from a player or summon? Not cheese. There's nothing wrong with cheesing, but you gotta call a spade a spade.
You just described most argumentation in general. Most people aren't even talking to the person who thinks they're the one being spoken to, the speaker is talking to a projection of their interlocutor, and the quality of that projection will be entirely dependent upon the mood of the speaker.
"Play the game this way." "I think you should play the game this way." "I recommend you play the game this way." "I had fun playing the game this way, consider trying it out." Note the subtle difference. Judging from your last video, it seems where people draw the "gatekeeping" line differs. If you want to avoid all hostilities you're going to have to walk on eggshells.
@Jubbin Forgive me if I’m misconstruing your words, but I think the way you put that is a bit dismissive. Everyone’s going to have different opinions on how a statement someone makes affects them, and sometimes people have bad days that just exacerbate how those statements might make them feel. While I agree with your conclusion that it seems like it’s a matter of tying sense of self-worth to a video game, I don’t think it’s necessarily the fault of COVID, or that those people “need therapy” in the way you put it. I would agree that those people would probably benefit from therapy, but I also think that pretty much everyone would benefit from therapy, in general. And who’s to say those people don’t already get therapy? Again, I apologize if I misunderstood you or caused offense. I’m not trying to judge your character based on something you said on the internet.
@@janthehuman1679 bruh the way you said it seems like you really took the main comment's advice of "walking on eggshells to not offend anyone" real fast into practice lmao 😂😂. Anyway, I do think its a bit too much if a few changes in grammer of a said sentence can make someone go from normal to extreme anger, resulting in writing a 3 page long comment or lashing out in some other way. Like if a teenager or kid does it its understandable cuz of hormones and them being a kid but in case of someone older, I think its something worth worrying about.
@@saiko-no-kami No, I’m just like this; I tend to apologize in cases where I might not need to, because I figure it’s better that than to not apologize when I should have. But that’s just me; I don’t think that’s something everyone should do. 🤷♀️ And that attitude of it being “something worth worrying about” is what I take issue with. You don’t know why a person says what they choose to say; I don’t think making value judgements on who they are as a person based on what they say is really a healthy outlook to have. I believe it’s what leads to the most toxicity in the gaming community, and it’s my opinion that that’s a bad thing. You’re free to have your own opinion, but that’s what mine is.
There are lots of people who look up cheese strats and "become OP in less than 1 hour" videos and secretly feel ashamed about it. They just don't want to be called out on that stuff because it makes them feel even worse. What you're doing with your well-intended advice is basically reminding them of that sense of shame, even though that's not your goal in the slightest. Also, the "fear of missing out" is a huge cognitive bias. Playing blind is scary for some people just because they know they're going to miss a ton of stuff (items, bosses, questlines etc.) and the FOMO is stronger than the potential sense of enjoyment they'd receive from playing the game without any guides. That's why they decide to look stuff up. This is both a consequence of human psychology coupled with the mainstream design paradigm of mandatory player guidance. These players would rather follow a 100% walkthrough like the one Cowboy's making rather than carve their own paths simply because they want to be exposed to as much game content as possible on their first playthrough.
Yeah! It makes me feel like shit when I hear that I didn’t really beat this game that I put 150 hours into just because I used spirit summons. I never cheesed a boss, I just made it slightly easier! I still had to learn to play just like anyone else, a fight just took me maybe 25 tires instead of 40.
I also like to play the game blind, but around midway I start to look up where stuff is cuz im really bad at finding stuff. Like maybe some interesting weapons or incantations I could try out. I would have missed out on the entirety of the Haligtree Secret passage and the Consecrated Snowfield if i didn't look up where the other half of the medallion was. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do think it's a bit lame to look up shit like "BEST MAGE BUILD", or "HOW TO GET 300K RUNES IN 30 MINUTES!!"
Irony is they miss out on the experience of trying things blind, i dont think theres anything wrong with looking things up and cheesing and all i just wait till ive tried a few times or am stuck till i do it. You can never really play a game blind after youve played it through before, especially souls type games cause a lot of it isnt stat based, your knowledge wont reset. Try it blind and if it doesnt work out you didnt skip over that experience.
Its kind of interesting for me because, I have basically never thought to look up "guides" persay, but if an item tells me that it "increases your damage" I will go to a wiki and try and find out what the specific percent that it increases my damage by actually is. I also have killed Capra demon with firebombs every single DS1 playthrough since I learned about that strat lol
Hey man, I feel for you on people misconstruing what you’re saying like that. I see that you’re a newish youtuber and I’ve seen this happen with a few others like yourself. I just want to say that in these communities there are a lot of people that purposely or not, misunderstand a lot of these types of things and act like you’re telling people what to do. There’s people like this is almost every gaming community and it’s even worse on RUclips sometimes. Its just a loud portion of the community. I’d recommend not letting the number of comments like that get to you! I’ve seen a few people get burnt out by RUclips by acknowledging and trying to argue with those people, to a point they just don’t enjoy making content anymore. Your videos are great and I think that you’re gonna be a very valuable addition to the souls community as long as your videos don’t also consist of being rightfully annoyed by it and repeating yourself over and over. Can’t wait to see where this channel goes!! Good luck man (Edit: I edited the comment to shorten it up and use better grammar but the comment wouldn’t update and I lost it so I’m not doing it again😂)
i actually kinda like him adressing the nonsense. its like what i do in my head but now i get to watch someone else do it with me :D i dont want him to get burn out on it tho
Hello again! Just commented on your last video, and I find it interesting that this guy agreed with your definition of cheesing. As a Fighting Game player, we would call your definition of non-cheese play "Learning the Matchup." You can bang your head against the wall and not learn anything until you get lucky with your positioning and AI RPS with a big hunka sword, and that doesn't add any more legitimacy or value to a playthrough, even though the system mechanics were dealt with (albiet inadvertently) in this scenario. What I think you're both trying to place value upon is Learning the Matchup, where you know you have to dive into Malenia twice and then dodge any direction and punish immediately vs her Waterfowl Dance. That's a match-up specific strat you need to know if you want to survive without getting lucky. That's engaging the mechanic in a meaningful way. For me, cheese is more akin to getting your opponent stuck in a wall, a la Corrupted Monk, or getting the Fire Giant to follow you off the ledge, falling 2 ft and dying from full life. That's not engaging. But firing a beam when there is no AI option to counter or stop that beam? That sounds more like a battle system oversight to me than cheese. Even Tree Sentinel right when you get out of the gate has a good answer to magic spam - he's mobile and has a direct shield counter. If they had put that kind of anti-delete button thought into all bosses of the game, we wouldn't need to be having this particular discussion. Is Comet Azure + FP flask cheap as shit? ABSOLUTELY. But is it cheese? I really don't know if that's true, as much as it is an eye-roller.
Completely agree here. The only part of the last video I disagreed with is the advice that people should engage with the mechanics on their first play through. I think that encouragement is only going to frustrate people who are new or having trouble developing the skills to engage with all mechanics. Sometimes its either find a way to cheese, or give up. Using myself as an example, my first playthrough was a lot of magic cheese. I would say I used magic more than I liked. But I just wanted to keep the game moving. My 2nd playthrough, I'm soloing bosses with a mace. I'm ready to engage with mechanics now. I think I agree with you. Its just a very difficult social construct that we are navigating. People who agree may still argue, simply because its difficult to articulate our position.
If you literally cannot progress due to challenge and or lack of preparation (unfocused build or just other random things like a flask that's still at level 1 and low quantity), and are about to give up, take a little time to figure out what you could do better, and try again or take a break. HOWEVER, not everyone enjoys a ruthless challenge, like a friend of mine that has gone through 4 controllers already (cheap ones thankfully), and still hasn't beaten the game. He justifies any means of 'cheese' by saying ut's the devs' fault for allowing it when some of the things are clearly unintended. Blaming devs for a few bugs in their first massive open world game is pure idiocy, but back to my point. If you literally can't do it, do what you can to progress and continue having fun, don't let the game stop you from the experiences you paid for, even if they are 'dampened' by your style of play. Not everyone comes in wanting this mega difficult infuriating game that feels constantly unfair, which it is not, but newer players may feel that way, unless they have a way to feel powerful, and make good progress even if they die a lot. This game is beautiful in it's design, and ability to let players do whatever they want and have fun doing so.
I half agree with this, but I think the problem can be that finding the cheese for a particular problem you're stuck on can be a godsend and allows you to progress it can also lead you to start looking for the cheese for the next possible roadblock before you've even taken the time to find out if its realty a roadblock at all. Plus, you're likely never going to get better at a game type if you constantly try to circumnavigate playing it "as intended". Some people have more resolve when it comes to this sort of thing than others and mileage definitely varies but I think I'm with Ratatoskr here when it comes to suggesting that you do at least try before you go looking to the strategy/cheese help every time something seems like it might become a roadblock. What I would never say is that shouldn't ever do it though if what you're attempting will otherwise stop you playing the game - if you feel like you want to continue then finding a way that will help you do that is always better than quitting outright.
I think it's a bit of a sliding scale -- purposely attempt to engage with the mechanics of every fight, until some point where you would prefer not to [for that fight]. I attempted the Malenia fight as legitimately as possible for a couple hours until I decided to repeatedly stagger her with Blasphemous Blade L2s until she died, with no opportunity to fight back. I wasn't appropriately progressing in my understanding of how to deal with her so I cheesed the hell out of her, but the takeaway is that I at least tried to fight her another way before the stunlock; vs. someone immediately honing in on that strategy the first time they enter the fog gate.
@@carpetfluff35 To clarify, I wasn't suggesting that people give up. I was saying that sometimes that feels like our only option. "I can't beat this boss at my current skill level, and I'm low on patience. If I can't find a way to cheese it, I'm gonna have to give up." That's what I meant. I think we are in agreement. This lines up with the last bit of my comment lol. I think we agree, it's just tricky to articulate. At least for me it is.
I really liked the additional part about speedrunning being done via cheesing, in the definition you used without a negative connotation, to the extreme. It makes perfect sense to me, and anyone who has watched any speedrun knows it also requires an incredible amount of skill. It's unfortunate a lot of people seem to take your video and thoughts so personally. It seems more like a misunderstanding than anything. But then again, sometimes people go out of their way to misunderstand.
No they do understand his points. They are clear and put into words even a 5 year old would understand. They just strawman his argument before even watching the video and spin every word to fit their idea of what his argument is. It´s just simpler and emotionally safer to label him a gatekeeper then actually reflect on the argument given.
@@Spinexus That's very sad, honestly. To see people so insecure that any time their egos get hurt, they decide to turn a blind eye on it and blame others.
the problem with his definition of cheesing is that it includes blatant cheating, ai breaks, zips etc. Unintended game mechanics that are abused to gain an advantage, much like the deathblight bug. So in some peoples mind, cheesing = cheating, thus hes calling them cheaters by saying they are cheesing bosses even when not cheating.
@@LouSaydus Are you sure you watched the video? He clearly defines what he means by cheese in both videos, several times. People are retarded. They just define their own meaning of the term and then label that over his definition he gave. Essentially disregarding his argument and just defaulting to their own view. The fault is on the individual watching and NOT listening. It´s not his fault for you being stupid beyond believe.
As a sorcerer, I’m told all the time how my wins aren’t legit. However, I feel I’ve had quite a unique experience compared to a lot of others, as I use close and long range spells when I fight bosses. I like to mix things up to see what the boss can do. Something that I’ve noticed is that the bosses (usually) have different mechanics depending on the range that you’re using. As in, you are more likely to see certain attacks from bosses, depending on if you’re a melee or a range build. I have noticed that some bosses are actually easier at close range (and some long range) depending on their tendencies and move sets. What I’ve come to find is this: Most people haven’t gotten to experience a lot of enemies the way that I have. What some people said was really easy, I thought was quite difficult. There were people who thought I was cheesing because I’m a sorcerer; and then end up watching me fight an enemy and saying “I didn’t know that boss did that. I’ve never seen that before.” I don’t think anything outside of exploitation and glitches is cheesing, personally. I don’t personally do this, but if someone comes in and they just spam spells at long range, or use comet asur as per cowboy’s example, if the boss isn’t able to move out of the way, or have some mechanic to work around not being destroyed by a single strategy, then that is just simply an efficient method of defeating that boss. Did they get to see that boss’s moveset? Not really; but I bet not many people have seen the full moveset of a lot of bosses and don’t even know it. Just like how a boss with mostly long range attacks and only a few ok’ish melee ranged attacks get melted by a katana (just as an example) easily. People will claim that boss is easy, yet I might think that boss was tough due to the range I was in. For example, there are some bosses where the infinite fp 10 second comet strat is completely trash, as the bosses just simply dodge out of the way. Yet there might be a spell that is slow and has good tracking, trivializing that particular boss. I’ve found all kinds of goofy ways to make a boss easy. I don’t do them; because I want to see all of what the boss has to offer. But just because you’re using a strategy that counters a boss’s particular moveset doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re cheesing them. Also, I’d like to see these people who are so called cheesing bosses use the same method on a much harder NG cycle. The same strat from the first ng might not work on the 5th. Regardless, the question comes down to, do you think cheesing is when you don’t engage with all of the boss’s mechanics? If so, then most people including yourself have cheesed a lot of bosses (I don’t agree with this). If not, then what percentage of a boss’s mechanics do you need to miss out on before you consider it cheesing? Anyways, slight disagreement here, but I appreciate your content and can’t wait to see your next video. I’m not here to critique, but only to offer a different point of view. :)
This is most likely just something that's just stuck with people from the previous games, as sorcery broke the game in some of them and was widely considered like an easy mode. I doubt sorcery is as overpowered in Elden Ring, but I bet it probably makes the game overall easier compared to the standard sword/shield melee character.
Two things. First of all, it ultimately doesn't matter what you think the definition of cheesing is. What matters is what you mean when you say "cheesing". Because all definitions are arbitrary. So really, if someone says "this is cheesing" and someone else says "this isn't cheesing", then neither are right nor wrong, they just need to clarify what their definition is. But also, you encountered a logical flaw in one definition of cheesing. Fair enough. But that wasn't Ratatosky's definition. Using magic, or ranged in general, didn't fit his definition of cheesing. Specifically using comet azul + infinite FP, however, did fit his definition, because doing that doesn't avoid engaging with some of the bosses mechanics, it avoids engaging with all of the bosses mechanics. Of course, it's not as perfectly formal as a definition in a math paper would be, but neither is yours, because what is an exploitation of a glitch also isn't defined exactly. Definitions we use for words tend to be like that, requiring some judgement calls of what exactly fits and what doesn't. But that's okay, as long as people can understand each other that's what matters.
So, I'm one of the people that left the "cheesing is using exploits/glitches" comments in the last video. After thinking on it, I've softened on your side. My first playthrough, I dual-wielded Moonveil in my main-hand with the Meteoric Ore Blade in my off-hand. I was playing a Wretch that started out going in the Dex/Faith direction that I respecced into Dex/Int after not feeling satisfied with the things I had found throughout the game. I had looked up nothing online, I had just noticed that there were two Int katanas in my inventory that I thought looked cool as a Devil May Cry fan. The last half of the game after swapping to this build was so piss easy that I thought Fromsoft dropped the ball on the last half of the game again. Then, I saw all of the Moonveil discourse online and did a second playthrough where I used the Misericorde + Buckler exclusively with no summoning, forced to learn the mechanics of the game without relying on the Moonveil's massive damage. I do think there are advantages to not using overpowered gear, and I agree with you that learning the mechanics is much more fun than blowing away a boss instantly.
Oh no, is the Moonveil OP? I wanted *a* dex weapon in the early game, and found that on some list, so went and got it. I don't feel overpowered, really, but I'm worried the rest of the game (just got to raya lucaria) will be too easy. This is my first souls game and I'm trying to refrain from looking stuff up, but when I feel like i'm missing something or that I could be playing the way I want (dex/int), it's hard not to. Might have to ditch the moonveil (also carrying meteorite staff).
@@Miabalzitch it did get nerfed a little bit recently, but is still incredibly strong. If it starts to feel to strong you can always have a second weapon you keep upgraded that you can swap to. That'll maintain the challenge you want.
@@Miabalzitch It's mostly the Ash of War that makes it strong. It does more stagger damage than a greatsword (Used to be more than a Colossal Sword, but its stagger got nerfed in Patch 1.03), and does massive amounts of damage for the FP cost. Even more so if you equip the talisman that reduces the FP cost of weapon skills.
Another thing to consider is that I think people are much more likely to feel you "cheated yourself" if you didn't organically stumble upon a powerful weapon or build, but actively looked for the most cheesy broken OP strategies online. A massive, massive part of the challenge of these games is having limited knowledge. There's ALWAYS super-powerful items and builds in the world but on a blind playthrough you aren't often going to find these until later in the game, and even then you might not appreciate how powerful they are for yourself. I'm never gonna say someone cheesed their playthrough because they discovered a powerful build and used it, because how are you supposed to know without anything to compare it to?
I know this isnt 100% percent of the problem but im sure its part of it, its about egos/pride. You even mention it in the video, the word “cheese” itself has a connotation that implies people aren’t playing the game correctly and are therefore less skilled or their experience is less valuable and it makes them feel like they cant take any pride or satisfaction about overcoming a challenge. People tend to see that as a personal attack (even though like many others i know you didnt mean it that way) and they end up getting defensive/emotional about it. Its not unique to souls games at all trust me, its a pretty universal response. Very well articulated videos im with you 100% 👍🏽
Even a monkey can hit free fp physik and hold Comet Azure until the target is dead if you teach it. I find it funny there are people out there taking pride in their ability to execute this sequence, and even more funny that people get offended by being told how basic the skills they are so proud of are. I think people are, of course, entitled to play the game the way they want. They are not entitled to receive praise from others for playing that way.
Cheesing is a valid way to beat the game and is really fun, I do it too. But if you're ego is hurt by someone saying you cheesed something by spamming comet azur for 10 seconds and cheese has a negative connotation that it's an unskilled way to play...I'm sorry but it kinda is? Like that's just the truth of it. Even a child can spam one button and win, obviously you're NOT as skilled as other people who play the mechanics as intended. But why does that matter? You bought a video game with your own money, games are supposed to be fun, do whatever you want. cheesing isn't a terrible thing, it's a lot of fun and it is a valid way to win and beat the boss. And like, why DOES it matter that you're not that good at a video game anyways lol, it's a freaking video game it's not that big of a deal.
@@knusperkeks2748 So have you cleared the game SL1 wretch naked? If not then you are a scrub and should git gud. You're the gatekeeper people in soulsbourn community that absolutely hate, thank you for demonstrating that for us.
it's really baffling to me how people will base so much of their own worth on beating these games, to the extent they can't admit cheesing any encounters. I've played the other fromsoft games and when I played elden ring I still cheesed some of the bosses. And like, it really doesn't matter. If I didn't bother to learn a boss fully and used an op weapon to bring them down quickly why would I lie to myself that I beat it skillfully?
these two videos did come off a little condescending to me but overall i love the points you made and I love the way you methodically approach arguments. Looking forward to future content!
You aren't gatekeeping. You are just giving suggestions and these people are misinterpreting your suggestion as an order. On another note I half agree half disagree with the blind playthrough. I also like to go in without knowing anything but if I get stuck I will look at something online. For example when I was trying to access Raya Lucaria I couldn't find the key at all and I was searching for ages until I looked at a guide. My advice to players is to play blind, until you come to what seems like an impasse.
I had the exact same experience. It was so obvious in hindsight how to find the key but this game is so large that I could have spent hours back tracking. That would not have been fun to me.
I like blind playthrough’s in souls games too but I usually end up having to look up key locations because I get lost a lot, even more so with elden ring
I too had to look at a guide for the key to Raya Lucaria and I felt incredibly and impossible stupid as I passed through that area some 20 times and never once explored those three stupid crystal pillars and had 90% of Raya Lucaria explored. My playthrough remains almost 100% blind.
I feel I've got a mildly hot take about cheese: If you found the OP thing organically and just use it, it's not cheese. If you knew about it before hand and bee-lined to it to exploit it, it is. However, that may be a personal opinion, and is simply how I refuse to play. I don't mind having minor details spoiled about this game, but I'll straight up quit a stream when they go somewhere I haven't, so I can figure it out myself. I don't look up games because they're there to be discovered, but I don't feel invalidated for having a different play style. I've had things spoiled that I went back and explored, mostly because I watched a streamer go into an area I'd apparently missed most of the content of. I also tend to *not* watch people play where I haven't been because to me exploration is the point in ER, and strategy is the point in Souls games in general (I'm not far in DS, though). I actually appreciate your insights and opinions how you, as a veteran of the series, play because it makes me think about how I play the game, and even helps me figure it out more. Recommendations aren't gatekeeping, and your videos are "I play this way for these reasons, give it a shot and you may like it" rather than "Only play this way."
I hate to get into the idea of “earning a victory”, but I couldn’t agree more here that if you found something on your own, you deserve your win. I would say it’s still cheesing because it’s still breaking the game, but if you found it organically, you earned your victory just as much as anyone else. Outsmarting a game’s mechanics on your own is an achievement worth the amount of the game you can successfully bypass. In Horizon Zero dawn I managed to constantly outsmart or exploit the living heck out of the AI on my first play through cause I learned what it can and can’t adapt to. I felt like I earned my wins because I managed to break the game myself organically. I tested things, I had to learn what worked and adjust it to different scenarios. I think if anyone can outsmart a game themselves, they’ve earned any amount of success they get from it.
by his definition, going through the game organically, missing a dungeon then coming back and one shotting the boss is cheesing. Why because that literally happened to me. I'm playing the game and my friend casually mentions Patches in Limgrave. I'm around Atlus Plateau at this point and I go "wait patches is in the game?" I had not looked it up. I went back to Limgrave wandered around till I found the dungeon, got to patches and one shot him with Glintstone Cometshard. Now by the definition he Ratatoskr provided, "Not engaging with the mechanics of the encounter," (Paraphrased) is that cheesing a fight.
@@vasylpark2149 I guess to hone in on this case: If I stumbled into patches and ganked him, I wouldn't call it cheese. If I missed him, heard he was there and went back specifically to gank him, I'd count it as cheese. Others may think that maybe the first is cheese and the second is cheesier, which is also an idea I can agree with, but I feel player intent should factor in. This is also beyond ratatoskr's point, and I don't think it's at odds with anything he said, as it's more an inidividualized experience thing.
I’m thinking of that boss in ds3 where you are supposed to pick up his sword and use it against him. Fight is super hard but if you wander around you find something that makes the fight easy. Finding the thing is the fight. If someone tells you ahead of time about it then it’s much more boring. You missed the point of the fight. But how do we know what “the point of the fight” is supposed to be? Who am I to say that finding the one spot where the boss can’t hit me isn’t like finding the sword that kills the boss? I don’t think we can know the answer to that so I like drawing the line at did you find it yourself
@@vasylpark2149 out numbering things is cheesing yes. Level upgrade based games just work that way, unfortunately. If you want a meaningful experience fight it when youre suppose too.
Elden Ring is the first game in the series that my brother, my cousin, and myself can all play together and experience with fresh eyes in tandem. My younger brother and I have been experimenting with more crazy builds right out the gate, meaning we quickly had a lot of quote unquote "cheesy" tactics up our sleeves, but it never felt unbalanced or broken, because so much of the game was already so punishing, and most of our abilities and gear was things we had to kill powerful foes to get, like dragon hearts for our breath attacks, or armor and weapons from unique foes. It wasn't until we got to the mimic tear boss fight that we realized we should maybe not always default to the most overpowered, victory assuring tactics, like scarlet rot breath+keep away, or bleed spam with reduvia/rivers of blood, or even nasty spirit ashes like an upgraded Lhutel the Headless (my favorite summon besides Mimic Tear) because we just might ruin _certain_ experiences. With the mimic tear boss fight, my brother and I both had a similar problem. We entered the mist, buffed up, summoned spirits, and went full NATO before we even knew what the boss was. Mine was dead only moments after I realized what was up against, mostly from Lhutel and Rotten Breath, and I was immediately kicking myself for not just waiting a minute and assessing the situation. _I could have had a kickass mirror match with my doppelganger and found out what fighting myself in pvp would be like, but instead I summoned a bro and had him kick the shit out of the clone in the corner while I gassed him with the equivalent of a can of Raid the size of a house, and he died seconds after transforming without ever having used any of my attacks or spells._ So, when we next all met up, my brother and I took our cousin to the mimic tear and essentially held a tournament. We informed him it would be a fair fight, to let the mimic take shape before attacking, and that we would not interfere. This turned out to be a good fun 40 minutes as the triple strength mimic boss proceeded to pull out some crazy tactics. We all had a go, and Cuzzy said he was glad we didn't just erase the boss without having a good old scrap with it first. I've also just found out about the Stray Mimic Tear boss in the secret catacombs below the path to the Haligtree, so I can't wait to recreate those spiderman pointing memes.
i did the exact same thing.. halfway into the fight i realized i was fighting myself and had prepped with a player summon for absolutely no reason.. The mimic didnt cast a single spell before half hp because of my bleed and frostclaws, so there was no reason to have a summon with me.. But thats the expectation fromsoft set me up to have, so... what can i say? My build probably isnt for an ai to controll either, because i use spells in melee to mid range and low range weapons so it is kinda funky.. All the mimic did was cast a frostnova and roll around a little.. I really dislike that i summoned for that fight.. only had a single go at it too.. But that made me check the bosses first before summoning again. Shame i only learned that lesson 85% into the game..
I had fun bullying the mimic tears with the good ol' naked fistfight shtick, but that's because seeing my own character in only underwear (or the deathbed nightie) trying to haplessly punch things... is so amusing to me it's basically how I "played" invasion PVP for Varre: Calling out with a loud emote and comedically fistfighting people who were armed to the teeth. If I'd been far enough into the game I would have applied the almighty T-pose. Mimic made up by actually making bullying Malenia look awesome. Was it cheesy? Probably, yeah. But did it look cool as anything to have dual Adula's Moonblades in perfect sync to burst her first phase? Hell yes. Next run I do though, I'm probably going to see if the enemy mimic copies my level 500+ stats and accepts the ultimate showdown... of ridiculous bubble trumpets in heavy armor and the marshmallow turban. I threw away a million runes to get those horns, and by the stars I will get my money's worth finding out who's really the best at the rooty tooty point and dooty.
What's worse than a gatekeeper, are people who take advice misinterpreted as they are being forced to gunpoint and being shamed, sad state of affairs these two sides of the same coin are (the extremes and their toxicness).
@@snowpotatoporkchop2299 I can't judge for you, but I'm the middle ground/moderation, I'm not picking a side, I'll give my advice on the matter, whether you take it is up to you, if it is cheesing, I'll call it out as so; it doesn't diminish your experience, but you are more than willing to add spice to your experience, and I'll continue to play as such. *Ultimately, just give the information, what they do with it is up to them, and I'm not in any place to decide for them.*
You convinced me to play as a Wretch and it's been an incredible experience. I've looked things up only when I got sick of trying to figure something out for myself, but otherwise it's been pretty blind and an exhilarating experience. My character definitely feels like a hodgepodge of all the random things I've found through my playthrough. I was using spirit summons, too, since I'm running a melee build and had a bit of challenge with Margit. But I kept beating bosses way too quickly, usually the first try, so I recently decided to stop using spirit summons for at least the first few attempts, too. I definitely feel more engaged with the bosses not using a summon, and I'm still beating them mostly on the first try! It's definitely tougher, but it's a much more rewarding experience. No shame to anyone who does it differently, I'm just glad I gave it a shot!
That pretty much proves his point lol. You had a valuable experience and had you decided that you would rather look stuff up and cheese because that's more fun to you than that would have been fine too I'm actually mad at myself that I didn't play wretch on my first playthrough but I will still do it on my second
I think one important point that you missed is how difficult these games can be to get into blind. There are plenty of guides out-there (Some of which made by yourself) that are extremely useful to new players without making them SUPER OP or taking away discovery. For example going over some of the quality of life changes or advising people that Vigor is really important. Great video btw.
One examine for me was there was an invasion NPC who was very strong against slashing weapons. I looked that up, and then just switched weapons and was finally able to beat it. It was still really tough, and still took a lot of hits, just used a normal sword nothing OP. For me that didn’t take anything away from the fun or discovery of the game, it made it more fun actually.
There's probably a useful distinction to be made between 'playing blind' and 'playing blind, knowing how the genre works'. Like, there's a difference between not knowing where to find a particular weapon and not knowing that dodging makes you immune to damage.
It's hard for me to imagine how someone could reasonably interpret your recommendation for a way to play the game that you find enjoyable (in no way a mandate or necessity) as somehow elitist. That's like if someone tells you they are going to cook a meal, and you have experience cooking said meal. You might recommend a certain spice, or a style that you have found greater enjoyment out of over the several occasions you've made the meal. You're not demanding it, you're not telling them any other preparation is inferior; it's just a recommendation informed by your own experiences. It would be ludicrous for the person to respond by calling you an elitist.
Cooking is an excellent example, it seems the logic of alot of the people goes a little something like this: - Guy: "Hey man I thought of making a strawberry cake this weekend!" - Ratatoskr: "Oh is that so? May I recommend this new cream, it's tasty but not too sweet and it really goes well with strawberries" - Guy: "Wtf why are you trying to stop me from baking the cake?!" Gatekeeping has become such a buzzword... People use it all the time even though usually the situation in question has nothing to do with it
@@SandyCheeks1896 Hey, you probably should not eat that chicken medium rare, I recommend not doing that since you might get sick. I WILL EAT IT HOW I DAMN WANT TO!
The biggest issue with his point was that he was *directly* telling people that their experience held less value. The problem wasn't him giving advice, it was him saying "your experience is less valuable, it's worse than my experience." I will pull his words from the last video, direct quote. "I think, that engaging with a bosses mechanics and fighting him normally on your first playthrough is a more valuable experience than looking a boss up on youtube and cheesing him your first time through, both methods are legitimate, but one is more valuable." Do you see the problem? This is not him *suggesting* it's better, or *might* be more enjoyable. He is saying *it objectively is* better. That *your* experience is worse.
people seem to have a misunderstanding of what gatekeeping is. "Gatekeeping is the act of attempting to control, and or limit general *ACCESS* to something." saying to someone they should try engaging in the fights mechanics before resorting to using techniques and items to circumvent the fight is not even close to what gatekeeping is.
I would put forth that a good gatekeeper does none of those things, and is there to tell newcomers that while the doors are unlocked, that doesn't mean you can just rush in unprepared. A good gatekeeper is good enough at their job you'll usually miss it, while a bad one will just be a dick to be a dick.
@S. P. I always tell people that if they find a way to win, it's fine. Just be patient, do your research, mostly just to know how stuff works. If you get stuck on a boss, look it up if you feel like, to figure out what it's weak to and plan around that. Ideally you should look up as little as possible, but whatever brings you into the game world is the absolute best way to play. Good cheese is funny or clever, sometimes both. Bad cheese can ruin everything in moments. I wouldn't say you have to go in completely blind, in fact, I encourage people to find any way to engage. A let's play is a better resource for enjoyment of the intended experience, whereas a speedrun should only be consulted in the most dire of circumstances unless you've already beaten the game at least once. Looking up a strategy to help defeat a boss? Fine, not cheese. Exploiting a boss' AI so it doesn't aggro? Fairly cheesy. Using the cracked tears in your physick to destroy invaders/Hosts? Hilariously cheesy. Really the most important thing is that you're having fun, so have at it however you choose!
This conversation has made me back away from many game related discussions. The problem is the jargon. With many people, I see once they begin to use the jargon, it soon becomes thier personal task to redefine said jargon...its almost as if the jargon becomes more important than actually taking part in what they're intended for..
People don't usually talk via this channel. They just want to expose their point of view and get likes that validate them in some sort of weird social scale. Honestly, I don't even understand why he felt he needed to make another video to clarify anything. If people feel their own view of things threatened by someone else's then they have other things to sort out before even considering participating in public conversations like these.
@@imbeingspiedon5588 basically, I support what you wrote. And then went on to mention why the fact he made a video to clarify what he meant by his previous video a bit ridiculous. People who get angry regarding a person on RUclips giving their point of view on a certain topic have a lot of things to sort out. It is about jargon. But not just that. People feel threatened when the views exposed don't match their own. As if someone having a different idea than their own somehow was an attack against them. Which is absurd by all accounts. BTW, what kind of reply is "?"?
I've always enjoyed using and abusing all mechanics a Videogame has to offer and did the same in Eldenring, my first souls like. And I can see where the people complaining about your last video are coming from. In my opinion it stems from two main problems, first beeing the definition of cheesing, as you explained. And the second reason beeing that at times, atleast from my own experience playing the game, killing a big boss with e.g. comet azure can feel a little unrewarding. It can feel like beeing a child and stealing some sweets from the fridge. You feel a little bit bad for doing it, and when adressed about it (e.g. somebody calling your playstyle "cheesing"), you illogically feel attacked, exposed and sometimes get in a defensive state and talk back / write mean comments. What I am trying to say, is that as much as I appreciate your honesty, patience and intent to understand each and every comment, you shoudn't *always* listen to what people say, especially as your channel starts growing, more and more people will feel illogically attacked by minor things.
I made a throwaway joke on a random Elden Ring video on my feed. Fast forward a couple of weeks, the video has blown up and the joke has 12k likes, then someone pops in and boos me for being unoriginal! 😛 Popularity changes how people approach and engage with anything. Even statistically, a one in a million level of Dung Eater viewer is bound to show up on a video with millions of views.
I came here to say this exactly. I guarantee you that a lot of the people who have strong opinions about the semantics of made up words and intended play styles are people who are on the fringes of "by design." This game doesn't have a difficulty slider, but in some circles the "easy" is built into the styles of play that require minimal reflexes/reaction time. I have to assume the people upset do not want to be associated with that even if indirectly. That would be my best guess/observation.
If killing a boss before it can attack you 20 times is cheesing it, then so is dodging Malenia so she doesn't get to heal when she swings at you, or staggering it so it can't finish an attack animation. Avoiding the mechanics of the boss is the _entire point_ of fighting the boss. If you weren't avoiding the mechanics one way or another, you'd be dead! So arbitrarily deciding that the boss' max hp, or the stamina cost of blocking it, or it's ability to dodge projectiles aren't mechanics, and the only mechanic that matters is where and when it's hurtbox is so you can roll through it, is incredibly silly. You might make the argument that comet azure is too powerful, but I'd probably make that argument about plenty of other things first. Something that requires a huge stat investment to even cast, never mind all it's other drawbacks, is not overpowered. Roll spamming and bleeding out an enemy when you're still level 1 is overpowered.
@@smithsmith6402 Dodging and staggering are intended mechanics. Souls games are designed with a melee character in mind. Range is an afterthought. We know this because many enemies don't know how to deal with range. Just because devs throw in OP tools in order to make you feel strong mid to late game doesn't mean that all enemies/bosses have AI designed to deal with them. Accounting for so many variables for so many enemies is not feasible, that's why cheesing is possible with tools the devs give you.
Ratatoskr being at awe and unable to comprehend was such a funny moment to me. It kinda felt like that meme with Patrick getting anything but a jar. In all honesty, saying that advice is elitist is not really anything someone can fight back on, because the people that usually say these things, are very hard to convince otherwise and they will always think of a certain someone as elitist once they've set their mind to it. (which is funny because that's exactly what an elitist does) I personally can't quite say what makes people say this, but what I can say is that the people saying these things, are very pig-headed.
Ha! that part was funny, but I've found that when people say stuff like that, half the time it's because they are thinking about it in their own head that they might not notice the finer details of the statements made.
I think the tl;dr is that there are insecure people on both sides of the argument. There are anti-cheesers who shame people for no other reason that to feel good about themselves. There are pro-cheesers who are in denial for taking the easy route. It depends on what type of person you are. Some people have the time and patience. Some people don't. If you are shaming people to feel good about yourself or you're in denial and being toxic about it, then you are garbage.
I think its more because the people who look up the most powerful strategies say the game is easy. And sure, its ez if you play that way, but what were saying is that they didnt allow themselves to experience the difficulty. Its not insecure, its just pointing out that these games have an easy mode, you just have to access it through the internet, or find it yourself
Yep some souls veterans are butthurt that casuals are beating the game easily and looking at them like they're crazy when they say they fought the boss 100 times. Some casuals are butthurt because people are saying they cheesing the game for using summons and op builds that they look up online. Both sides are not wrong, they're just different type of player. Just don't fight with each other, respect other people's gameplay and move on. A great community about this issue is Monster Hunter community, they don't alienate you for using OP builds and summons friends, they encourage you, if you want to use weak builds then you will get praises for doing a challenging run.
@@KayOScode ah another butthurt can't accept that their game is easy because their personality is "good at game". Dude Elden Ring is not that hard, you're doing self imposed challenge to make it hard and there's nothing wrong with that but don't lie to yourself and said the game is hard. Just like I play pokemon nuzlocke because the game is easy but I don't attack people who said the game is easy because it is easy.
I now have one criteria to determine if I consider my own win valid and worthwhile: Is my heart pounding after the battle? If true, then I am good with it.
A lot of the sort of arguments in the community sound a lot like "It's okay if you want to play on Diaper-baby easy mode. don't let me stop you from being a casual." in regards to sorcery or summon ashes. This doesn't feel like that though. I get a sense that you really understand the different preference things, and put great care to not sound condescending in it. That was my issue with the first video. I interpreted your main issue with the tweet and underlying sentiment to be the classification of something as Cheesing. It seemed like you were saying that someone is wrong for not being honest about it being cheesing, negative connotation and all. This puts it in a different light as now you've thrown out your thoughts of Cheesing being a legit, and for some, more fun strategy. This is honestly a really good example of forming argumentations, and getting your points across.
Yea, the issue with not being very explicit with your arguments about ''hot button issues'' is that your comments are not made in a vacuum. You leave room on the table for interpretation, people will assume the worst because there is enough prior discourse to do so. This amendment is a lot better.
Respectfully, I think by nature of who these videos are going to reach, you're fighting a losing battle. I imagine the majority of people who came across your last video, are likely people who have looked things up, myself included. As a result, a good amount of those people are going to strongly disagree with you just because you hold, at least initially (play blind, then look things up if that's not for you), a different opinion than they do. I did look up a good bit myself, I felt incredibly overwhelmed by how much there was to do and honestly got so lost trying to find some sense of direction. I have fully enjoyed the game, however, and I very much look forward to the next Souls game and will 100% try to go into it blind now that I have a somewhat okay grasp of the basics of the genre (or so I assume). This was my first experience with the genre, and it's been an absolute blast to play through the game. From demolishing Godfrey in my first few attempts, to cheesing the fuck out of the Draconic Tree Sentinel outside of the capital entrance because fuck him, this game is easily in my GOTY contenders. I can only imagine the excitement of having a fully spoiler free run of the game.
Agreed, it seems like people who misconstrued his last video may just not be very charitable to his point. Also, glad to hear you enjoyed the game, and honestly if you want to experience one of them completely blind you don't need to even wait for a new one. All the previous FromSoft games are very similar and are just as wondrous and mysterious to explore blind as Elden Ring, just on a different scale.
I come from the time of buying strategy guides such for the Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time. I understand there is a joy of going in blind. I believe it is the type of game that decides if you wish to look ups things like RPGS
@@melr.5492 honestly I’m someone who enjoys going through the game blind and making it more difficult for myself (currently on a no level up run of Elden ring) and for some reason I even found myself disagreeing with him I just think it was the wording choice that really misconstrued what position he held on the matter he actually meant like watching this video made me 180 on his Position
People calling you Elitist while simultaneously suggesting that they (someone who is not elitist) have a morally superior/better take than you simply by virtue of their opinion being "non-elitist" is the most ironic form of Elitism I've seen to date. And yes, you have my permission to use that logic to severely frustrate every virtue signaler who still wants to troll you as an elitist simply for having an opinion you believe is justified. Great vid 🤙
I hate when they try to make you out to be a bad guy. "You don't want easy mode? You must be against installing ramps for people in wheelchairs." Ironic how they think they are the most understanding people, but won't hear us out.
People, in the wrong headspace, thinks that suggesting other players, as rude and/or mean at best, and as morally wrong at worst. The simple fact that you had anything to say about their way of doing things is already over the line. I believe this is what tip them off.
It comes down to this: The game has core mechanics that you are *intended* to use and experience to play the game. Anything that subverts those core mechanics is what "cheesing" is. The thing about any *good* set of core mechanics is that it will ALWAYS alienate the types of people that are not interested in said core mechanics. Sometimes people will just *not* enjoy the game you want to make, and as such will "cheese" their way through it out of some sense of, maybe completionism, maybe pride, maybe FOMO, etc. So as a developer, or any person really, you *must* ask yourself: If someone doesn't like the game you *intend* to make, do you even want them playing your game? DOOM Eternal takes the stance of "No, if you do not want to play the game in the way it is designed, just don't play the game." And it is a stance that I have fallen in love with. For someone who finds the mechanics in these games, *especially* in Elden Ring, extremely fun and engaging, I am saddened whenever I see people cheesing, because when I see that, I see someone who is not ever going to fall in love with the game so long as they continue cheesing. And they have been given no reason not to cheese, such that the cheese still exists. I see a person who is one of two things: They are too scared to try and have fun and have been given a method to allow their fears to continue, or they are playing a game whose core design they do not find fun and are just trying to "get it over with" as soon as they can. And I find either of these things dissatisfying, personally. To return to the original question: Do you want people who don't like your game to play your game? I would answer no. Do you want people who *do* like your game to play your game in the way that they like it for? I would answer yes. If given the option, players will always optimize the fun *out* of the experience. It's an unfortunate side-effect of the human condition. It's up to the developer to make the decision for the player about what kind of fun the game can provide. It's up to the developer to make the optimal route the fun route.
@@GermanKinsmen Depends on what you mean by "really strong weapon". If the mechanic of that weapon essentially turn off all the other mechanics in the game, that is the developers fault. Remember, it is the DEV's responsibility to make the optimal route the fun route. That being said, you could willingly ignore the OP nonsense and continue engaging with the core game mechanics. And, just in case anyone wasn't aware... Fromsoft doesn't really playtest their own games. A lot of newcomers don't realize it, but we're currently in the playtesting phase right now. Game devs aren't gods. They can, and often do, make mistakes.
@@GermanKinsmen It's an *action* RPG. The core game mechanics in this game are: R1s for DPS, R2 for poise damage, jumping attacks for specific dodges as well as increased self poise and increased poise damage on jumping attacks, using poise damage to stagger heavy enemies, using effective defenses against incoming damage types, using weaponskills for nukes or utility, the basic movement and dodges, physick to cement a build together, shields for a safety net as well as parrying or other weaponskill storage, guard counters for quick poise damage, crouching and other items for stealth, ranged attacks for certain enemy types or as finishers, flask balancing, weapon buff material collecting, etc. If you ignore some of the obviously-unintentionally-OP stuff, you can and *should* engage with *most* of these mechanics on a regular basis. However, if you just moonveil L2 R2, you can ignore all but one of these mechanics, because moonveil L2 R2 was heavily OP, which is why Fromsoft *nerfed it in a patch.* If your goal when playing a game is to beat the game, then you don't find the game fun, you just want to say you've beaten the game. If your goal when playing the game is to *play the goddamn game,* then you find the game fun. If you haven't yet, I recommend you play Doom Eternal. Just the base game is fine. Play on Ultra-Violence, which is normal mode. Nightmare is the hard mode.
"blind playthrough" was not what I had taken away at all from the closing statement of the previous video. I actually pretty much agree with encouraging people to play blind and dont consider it gatekeeping at all; its only gatekeeping if you then scoff at someone because they didnt play blind. What I had taken away from the closing statement of the previous video was "I dont use techniques that allow me to bypass boss mechanics, and I'd encourage you not to as well". Which is also something I'd tend to agree with on a surface level, but think that it gets kind of complex and grey when looking at the vast arsenal of tools Elden Ring gives you; infinite fp comet azure might be a bit much, but if you know you are walking into a 2v1 bosses favor then I dont think using an ash summon to make it 2v2 is in any way avoiding boss mechanics but rather playing to them tactically. Combine that with how everyones definition of cheese tends to vary (seriously if you followed a strict "no cheese" rule and everyones definitions were used to make a list of cheese that must be avoided, you'd only ever be able to rune level 1 naked bare fists only), and thats why I agree with the totality of Fighting Cowboy's tweets; it doesnt matter what you use.
Exactly It's not about the points, it's about how you present those points, i found myself disgreeing witha. Thing or two in the previous video, but in this one while i would give a different weight to each point, at the end of it i fully agree. Academics are tricky, especially when dealing with people who jump the gun(youtube and twitter commenters when dealing with anything even remotely resembling a debate)
Very first statement "it does matter to me if you cheesed a boss a victory is a victory " he never discouraged anyone from cheesing just elaborated on how he get enjoyment out of the game and made sure to reiterate that you might get more enjoyment whatever way you choose to play the game obviously I'm not you so I can't definitively tell you why the way he presented the video rubbed you the wrong way but if I were to make my assumption I would say you went into the video with a predisposed idea and biased and when it didn't 100% align with what you agree with even though you in a more broad sense agree with him in general you mistook that as discouragement of certain mechanics
@@yomoje152 yes he didn't discouraged them, he also validate them but he said they are not as "valuable". Value is subjective and the fact that he said that shows his elitism, he basically said the way he beat bosses is more valuable than you filthy casuals.
The thing that frustrates me is people say cheesing is bypassing mechanics, but summons, sorcery, stuff like Margit's shackle, etc ARE mechanics. It's not cheesing to summon on Radahn. It's not cheesing to summon Oleg. It's not cheesing to use the shackle. None of these things are refusing to engage with or avoiding needing to engage with mechanics. Not doing these things IS avoiding engaging with the mechanics of a challenge. Yet everyone seems to call summoning or the shackle cheese, but don't consider using pure melee physical damage and refusing to engage with consumables, magic, etc as bypassing mechanics.
They are what I call the semi-cheese. You get to ignore the mechanics, but not the entirety. It's basically a free 1st Phase for a boss using summons and shackle.
The way that you articulate the points that you wish to make are clear, concise, and in no way shape or form derogatory or demeaning to anyone, and for that I say thank you sir and Bravo!
Totally agree with you on blind playthroughs, it's definitely waaaay more enjoyable, and that's not gatekeeping at all, it's ludicrous some people are even suggesting that, it's just an advice "Try this and you might enjoy the game more", how is this gatekeeping is really beyond me. About Scott Young's clip, the problem with his argument is that he conflates using something the devs intentionally put in the game and intended the players to USE (weapons/spells/summons) with using glitches in speedruns or hitting the boss from a weird angle behind a wall, these things aren't even remotely equal, using glitches or hitting the boss from behind a wall is by definition NOT what the devs intended, using powerful weapons/spells/summons is intended, therefor it's not the same at all as using glitches or exploits (which deservedly gets a bad rep).
idk, both glitches and intended features can run the gamut between cheesing and not cheesing, so I don't think conflating them really matters. Furthermore, I'd often agree that glitches often have more of a stigma to me, though idk if I can call them objectively worse 100% of the time for it. I suppose that may be more of a factor because the game is more often than not designed the way it is for good reason, meaning unintended cheeses more often tend to be "worse" cheese. This may seem a nitpick, but one that would make a difference when talking about a less well designed game. I guess most of that could be subjective anyway, but I felt like sharing my thoughts, so here they are.
Most people who disagree with the definition of cheesing at this point really comes down to the Comet Azure+Infinite FP stuff. I personally don't consider it cheesing, but I can see why some people might since it does stunlock some bosses. My argument is that some bosses cannot be beat this way, and some bosses are harder for mages to deal with than a melee character for instance. This really is a grander argument that Mages aren't really playing DS games and even stems into how powerful Ashes are in this game vs good old fashion R1+dodge roll strategies which were the best to use in older games (minus the mage builds which again are usually designated as cheese by the community). Overall cheesing just has a very negative connotation to it, and the DS community, now elden ring community is very very toxic in it's gatekeeping so now even someone with a very lukewarm take gets caught in the crossfire. Elden Ring might be the worst it's ever been actually, though I suppose with more players you're just more likely to encounter those type of people.
It's interesting that you think exploits deserve to be looked down on. I've been watching a bunch of Trackmania videos recently, and records in those games often involve exploiting bugs. The community celebrates them, and hunting for new ways to break the game is worthy of respect. What's the difference, do you think? I realise that sounds like a loaded question, and I don''t mean it to be. This thought just occurred to me and I'm wondering.
@@gengar5213 eh, as someone who tends to do the same, it's hard to notice the enjoyment it brings without actually doing it. That said, I have trouble not looking things up, so I wouldn't shame you for it. Just a lil extra satisfaction, yaknow?
Elden Ring allows you to get so strong in PVE, that it trivializes a lot of things, compared to other souls games. OP isn’t calling looking things up in your first play though stupid, but I will lol. Seriously though, do what you want. Though it must be said, The game intends for you to be powerful, sure, BUT, it also intends for you to explore and to find those things.
Exactly. A lot of these op strats and builds are nearly impossible to put together by organically exploring the world because their components are in different areas that you visit at different points during progression. By the time you should have access to them, you'd be much closer to end game where enemies are tougher and you have had time to actually engage with the games mechanics and challenges, instead of running through most of the game with an OP cheese build you looked up.
@@NocturneJester Some are pretty well hidden too if you don't pass the map with fine tooth comb. I almost missed hoarfrost stomp entirely, and didn't even find out how powerful it was until I found some other weapon that had the skill and tried it out. I do think some of the OP stuff should be nerfed. Post nerf, I feel quite a bit more comfortable using that skill for example, it's still super good, maybe a bit much, but it's not quite as busted.
Cheese was used in Starcraft as "all in strategy" that wins more than loses against bad players, but rarely wins against good players. It describes a strategy that is incredibly easy to accomplish, but once you did it and it didn't work, you've already lost. Until everyone can agree on what "cheese" is in this game, this discussion will be completely fucked. Not that it matters because winning is winning and that's all that matters.
Well, the same can be said about "winning", if your definition of winning is a "foe has been felled" message on the screen then yes. But I think fun is also part of the equation. Sometimes I was steamrolling bosses with my ashes of war and that left me feeling like I had wasted what could have been a good and fun boss.
In this game, cheesing is usually just taking advantage of enemy AI to get an easy win. In PvP, cheesing is the same as in StarCraft. Using an all-in strategy that has a simple counter, and just hoping you don't get countered
@@aBucketOfPuppies This is my definition. I don't see using stuff they give you in the game as cheesing. This includes end game spells and ashes of war, as powerful as they are. Bosses are still hard. If they aren't you probably are doing something very right, or the boss just isn't a particularly hard boss fight.
@@GriFFonRec4 Find a hard boss and then summon spirits. It's no longer a hard boss. This is the case nine times out of ten. Most boss fights become piss easy once you start using spirit summons. But if you somehow find most boss fights to still be difficult after using spirit summons, then you have my condolences.
As Tea rather thoroughly shows throughout the comments, the people that say they 100% agree with everything Ratatoskr says do have a tiny habit of insulting anyone that doesn't play like them. Just a little. Weird, it's like they don't actually agree with that part he threw in about not insulting people, and threw fuel on the fire that caused this. It's very strange that he has so many of those agreeing with him. Perhaps that is worth some introspection.
Honestly, I agree with your take on going in blind, I only wish I had seen your video before I started my playthrough of Elden Ring because I think I'm falling into the same issue that your friend did. There's nothing wrong with your opinion, its a good insight, and I don't know why people are reacting so strongly to it either. Glad you stood your ground and keep up the great content.
Elden Ring is so huge you have a chance to start a new character and play it blind, and I'm sure you'll run into things you haven't seen before. It won't be the same, but you'll be surprised at how much you can forget about. Lol. There's just sooo much stuff. I
I think this triggers people who don't want to admit that they bypass mechanics. Humans get angry when they feel threatened. I see it as unwilling confrontation with honesty. I cheese some bosses. I wish I didn't have to. It makes me feel like a failure because I know I'm not as good as other players. Or I'm just too lazy to spend time learning how to dodge the attacks. But I've come to terms with it, and I use it as motivation to step it up next time I start a new game. It's difficult to be that honest with yourself. 10 years ago, I don't know if I would have had the wits to admit to myself that I sought an easier route because I couldn't handle the challenge head on. I would have defended it as the same performance as someone who got up close with a sword. The anger in this subject is projection, in my opinion.
@@MinecraftMartin yeah definitely seems like it, and I had the same experience with cheese. By the end of my first playthrough I just wanted to beat all the bosses rather than actually fight them. After coming out beating Malenia and Mohg with mimic tear I felt nothing. I came back next playthrough and soloed both of them after trial and error. They are probably some my favorite fights in the series now
@@squirtbrainz1219 I tried Mohg and I didn't like the fight. Too much surface dmg so I summoned (not mimic but still pretty good) But I straight up refused to cheese Malenia just because the fight was so good. I still haven't beaten her but I'm okay with that and will try again next time
@@MinecraftMartin People, in the wrong headspace, thinks that suggesting other players, as rude and/or mean at best, and as morally wrong at worst. The simple fact that you had anything to say about their way of doing things is already over the line. I believe this is what tip them off.
Let me preface this by saying, I look tonnes of stuff up before and while I play just about any game. I don't get to play games a lot and feeling endlessly lost or frustrated is not what I come to them for and yet I still absolutely agree with everything you're saying here. It's clear you were just giving your opinion on a way to play and in many ways it even reflects my experience. There have been many games that I've left in the mid to late game because I was overpowered and I knew I could easily finish it. I probably also knew exactly how the game would end cus I'd have already seen it. And for me, that's perfectly fine! As I said I don't have a lot of time and so that just so happens to be a satisfactory conclusion for me, with one caveat, it's satisfactory, so long as I played it the way I wanted to. What this means in elden ring is I haven't copied anyone's build cus I want to be a lighting Claymore wielding lord. I don't use furcalling remedies cus that's just not how I want to do it (but there are absolutely bosses I've cheesed by tucking out of reach and lighting bolting them to death- again, it's just me). I fight with brOleg instead of black knife tiche cus he's been there since the start- you can bet your ass I chose him from a top ten video though. I farm ruins and look up smithing stone locations, NPC locations, etc, but only til I have what I need to keep going with my story. I learnt how to parry for crucible knight cus that was more rewarding than just over levelling, but on the flip side, even having learnt his full skill set, I had to go do some grinding to _finally_ kill Godfreys ghost (and funnily enough Margott literally went down five minutes later). I one hundred percent don't think you're gatekeeping the experience, you just want people to think a bit about how they're choosing to play and making the decision that suits them best- not just the one that's easiest
I think with Elden Ring, there are some instances that looking stuff up is totally fair game. Last night, I was just walking around and randomly found a dungeon in the sewers of the Lyndell Capital. I had to jump down a bunch of coffins and got a lot of cool stuff for madness, which was awesome because that's what I wanted to build my character around for PVP. So I do all of that and I make it to the bottom and the floor caves in and I see a grace point and a cool looking door. So naturally, I open the door out of the same blind curiosity that led me there to begin with and a cutscene just automatically played whereby my dude just willingly let these random, burning set of 3 fingers just kinda wrap themselves around him and I guess he absorbs them? And that was it, no context at all. After telling my friends about it, my understanding is that I'm now locked into the shittiest ending in the game because of that. I'd say that's fine if I didn't already complete Fias quest line without any guides at all and I was really excited to see that, but now I guess I get to deal with whatever this one is
@@nickhard7615 oh that's rough! And mad respect to you for playing it so blind, I could never play through an entire game just to find out at the end I haven't gotten the ending I want
@@nickhard7615 *SPOILER*! and I don't know how blind you want to keep it, so feel free not to read this if you're keeping it that way! There is a way to undo that and not get that bad ending!
Brand new listener, new souls player here, and brand new subscriber. I think it’s great that these conservations are happening within this community. Coming from the FGC, with a horrid history of gatekeeping and elitism that is just now being addressed, it’s nice to see other communities trying to address it while expanding. I believe that many people who cry “gatekeeping” and “elitism” have experienced it much worse somewhere else before to the point it drove them away; souls games, 2D fighting games, fps games, etc. it’s possible many people here who are angry in the comments are extra sensitive due to previous negative experiences. I have made previous attempts to play Dark Souls 1 in years past, only to (excuse the language) meet complete assholes who would withhold even the most vague advice when I would express exhaustion over what to do to get through the Undead Burg, Taurus Demon, and the Parish. I don’t want to be told what to do, but I really thought just saying “I need a little help here please” was no big deal. By the time I expressed frustration in the early parts of the game and went to a forum to find help, snide messages and vague responses about “keep looking around” just drove me away and I damned the whole community. It was a mirror experience to improving in fighting games. With the help of a very kind friend, we found a middle in-between organic experience and hand holding and I’m finally making my way through Dark Souls 1. I will say that already it is a gaming experience I will never forget. I literally just beat Ornstein and Smough with a summon and my +5 Zweihander. One of the most hype moments I’ve ever had in a video game. Nothing anyone would ever say will take away from that 60th attempt that was finally successful. Most people who attempt to play a souls game really suck at them, like completely hopelessly suck at them. But they are still trying their hardest, and will spend entire week’s worth of play session just to get from one bonfire to the next. Every single enemy becomes a boss in the name of surviving for an extra 30 seconds while taking days to understand what’s going on. With me feeling like I’m in this crowd I’ll say this; the players who just suck but still play and soldier on, we are trying our best. We want to enjoy what the game has to offer and not abuse a mechanic to get through it. We didn’t mod in difficulty sliders. And Im sure many don’t see any part of their experiences and struggles in the sea of meme videos and deep discussions about niche stuff in someone’s 20th play-through. Players who struggle and suffer, but still carry on and progress just want to be heard and validated in a community they are trying to fit in to. I really enjoy your newer videos and discussions, and look forward to going through your video catalogue.
I feel like reading my own experience with Bloodborne (my first soulslike) If not for the friends of mine who wanted to play together, i never would have made it through, these games don't tell you even the basest of mechanics at times like i-frames on rolls (Elden ring is actually the most generous of all titles in that department) and for someone like me that's atrocious, not as bad design necessarily, but because i know that i will only get frustrated until i know why i'm failing, and knowing that would help the frustration ease up to the point where i can actually retry a boss hundreds of times rather than 5 at most. I even put this to the test, i asked my father once to play dark souls 3, and he's NEVER played a game with a 3d camera before, with his hardest game ever played being metal gear solid 1 on the psx over 20 years ago. I've seen him(and recorded him, you can see it in my channel) beat gundyr(ds3's fiest/tutorial boss) in 1 hour of playtime total from making character to beating him over two days, whereas i've seen self and-proclained "non-casual gamers" fail and be frustrated for hours at gundyr, the main and arguably only difference? I told him how the buttons functioned, how rolls worked and what does 3 bars( ho bar, fp bar and stamina bar) meant and to "always keep an eye on them, never let them go to 0, or at least the ho one... Fp one and stamina can go to 0 if you feel you're safe" That's it, that's the only difference, whereas the partners of those self-proclaimed gamers said nothing from start to finish. By the end of it my father was fairly happy and glad he had a chance to play the game which he liked even if his genre is more casual games and stealth games, never having been angry, while the other person was so angry i was almost scared they'd start punching their partner, and swore to "never play souls games again" A little bit of a different approach can make a world of difference.
I agree with this 100% People who are lashing out in the comment section here against gatekeeping etc are people with their own lives too. They've either been burned in a past game, or they or someone they know has spent the past month fighting trolls on twitter who have been calling them bad players or cheesers or fake fans or whatever.
00:50 mad respect, dude. It is one thing to own up to things you have said, but an entirely different thing to own up to interpretations of what you said. You earned a sub. As for why people were upset with what you said, I think you got most of the reasons between the granular definitions of cheesing and the negative connotations of cheesing. One thing I will add is that when people have an emotional attachment to something, like the enjoyment they got from playing in a certain style, or the thrill of one-shoting a boss, they can become very defensive when someone suggests they should have done something different, even if that suggestion was honest, well meaning, and not trying to devalue what they did experience. I believe that if you had put out your previous video before Elden Ring came out, more people would have taken it for what it was: a suggestion of how you believe the most enjoyable way of playing is, but since people have already played and enjoyed the game in a variety of ways, they want to defend the experience they had with it, even when the threat to its validity is only perceived and not intended.
i think its maybe just taking things too much out of context, if people end up cheesing a boss - im just gonna safely assume they've already tried beating it fair and square. at that point, even i would just cheese it if i've been stuck for a while. just to see whats on the other side and have progress. But im the type to go back and learn the fight anyway, so for me it doesnt take away anything, im going to have atleast 7 playthroughs, one for every ending.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I found the game more fulfilling playing X way, exploring at my own pace, not using guides, and think you should try it too." You are absolutely allowed to voice your opinion about that.. Seems like more people gatekeep about how you like to play than the elitist "no spirit ash, naked run only" people. To add my own fuel to the fire, I felt killing Margit and my first Godskin Apostle with a claymore and determination was more fulfilling than killing Malenia with Mimic and ice dragon breath spam. No one else has to feel the same as I do, but I am allowed to say I enjoyed the greater challenge more.
Sams build for me: claymore. Winning with just skill and no outside help is so much more satisfying than summoning a bunch of people bc you really can’t lose hence it’s not satisfying
Don't know if anyone's already made this point, but I think the reason people got upset about your suggestion to play through blind isn't because they thought you were giving them an order (though even they may think that is what upset them), but instead because *they actually agree with you* but don't want to accept the fact that they could have had a "better" first experience -- something they cannot go back and change. From their own perspective, their first playthrough is "ruined" because they've looked stuff up. From there it just comes down to their ego and guilt. It's either a) agree with you and accept that they made a mistake and get over it or b) deny they made a mistake and try to convince themselves of that by arguing with you. Ironically, they are playing a game that teaches you to live with failures and mistakes, but this one is apparently too hard to accept. Just to clarify (since we love to misinterpret each other here on the internet), *I'm* not saying they made a mistake by not playing through blind, I'm saying that that is what *they* believe they did. I don't care one way or the other. I looked stuff up during my first playthrough, had a great time, and still agree with Ratatoskr about playing through blind your first time. I believe the victories would have been that much sweeter, and the discoveries that much more mind-blowing, but I'm still cool with what I got out of it.
agree, i played thru blind up until the midway part whr i actively started to look stuff up because i was consciously willing to trade the joy of finding it for myself for the convenience and the content it brings
I feel like "cheesing it" is part the whole spirit of the series. You get to pick how difficult the game is for you. Some areas you just want to run through and not constantly be on the defensive.
@@slycooper2bandofthieves116 everyone plays differently, but i getchu. I try not cheese unless Ive already explored an area and just looking for illusory walls. (For unneeded context, "cheesing" for me is relying on the dragon Rotten Breath a little too much)
Definitely not. Again, cheesing is circumventing the mechanics, or exploiting a glitch. It's just generally doing something that allows you to avoid the challenge instead of engaging with it. Now in the open world where you have stealth and all that, sure, avoiding some challenges is intended. But when it comes to boss mechanics, avoiding the challenge is not part of the spirit of the series. Do it if you want. But the spirit of these games is the opposite. It's overcoming adversity, not cowering in front of it.
You got me to get 2 friends into elden ring as their first souls like game and all joined blind for first play through, and I even convinced them both to start as a wretch with me, and the way we all slowly ended up with different magic, naturally finding and using exclusive weapons, and the feeling of building your first set of armor and digging for scraps, it made them fall in love with the game in a deeper way I think any other first playthrough couldve been for them, and I convinced them to not use guides and they also managed to naturally get to the end of the game with minimal guidance (I didnt know more than them but knew the dark souls world design so hidden walls and drops were things I hinted at for them) but your encouragement to do playthroughs like that has made their love become so personal and natural, and made both of them want to go back and play all of the souls series with me. Thanks Rat.
I think the big reason why people are reacting to your value judgements at the end of the last video, is the subtle distinction between saying "There is more value in blind playthroughs" vs "I find there to be more value in blind playthroughs for myself". One can be taken as an objective statement of fact, and the other asserts that this is simply your subjective way of getting the most value out of the experience. I had assumed you meant the latter statement, as your tone and this video does not strike me as you making any kind of "objective" value judgement. But I can see why people who are already feeling sensitive about FromSoft veterans being judgemental to them on how they play, would react defensively and assume you meant the first one. Hopefully this helps shed some light on what I feel is the psychology behind the responses you are receiving.
He made it objective since the beginning of his last video by plainly stating that someone else’s opinion is “just wrong” and then following up his entire argument off of that.
There is objectively more value in a non-guided playthrough. Just as there's more value in someone understanding a subject vs memorizing an answer sheet and passing a test (aka "beating a boss"). Of course it depends on purpose, but the purpose of a game is usually somewhere around "to have a human experience" with, and there's objectively more of this value in Elden Ring when not guided, including playing offline. I'll give 1 example to back up my point: I discovered something in Stormveil Castle and it was all on my own. I was very proud and passionate about that because it was hidden. I used my senses and time to attempt finding this, that which I had no idea even could be reached, but there were clues the devs put in the game, so it was doubtful they devs were fucking with me... right? Now, what if I had followed a guide showing me the way or I had been playing online and read a guided message? What if I took all the mystery out of it and removed the discovery? The only thing this path satisfies is just some other location with some sort of visual distinction obscured from view... it does not satisfy the discovery, pride, and passionate accomplishment. The difference is not that you got to "see" what I got to see, it's that you didn't get to experience how it came to be for yourself.
@@tylernol1566 Sure, and thats great you had that experience and hold those values to be important. But be aware that those are *your* values. Not everyone values discovery and exploration the way you do. You could put someone in that same situation and they might not care at all. They may get frustrated and feel there is much more value in simply knowing what the secret is, and dont place much stock in the journey it took to get there. For that person, the value of that experience is lower to them. The problem is that there isn't really an objective metric with which to measure value. There are notions of value that are generally agreed upon by alot of people, but that doesn't make it objective truth. And when someone who has a different value set from you is told that their values are objectively wrong, well is it any wonder that person might get defensive?
Me: wanders around the game and figures out I can melt stuff with comet azue and a tear. The internet: you cheese trash. What a no skill thing to do Me: bro, I was having fun. Do you think this is a game?
There are two properties of the human brain that activate in this discussions: laziness (to preserve energy), and ego-defense (when a cognitive dissonance occurs). Example: I looked up how to reach the Haligtree, because I'm too lazy to wander around aimlessly. If you tell me, this hurts my fun, that means I'm in the wrong and that hurts my ego. Now my brain looks for alternative explainations (where I'm not wrong) and it finds one. You are gatekeeping. Of corse, I get that this does not make me be wrong. Just want to examine the mental processes behind this, as I am a student of psychology and this is quite interresting.
For what it's worth, I started DS1 and followed a guide and enjoyed it a lot, then moved on to Elden Ring and did a little blind and then looked up some stuff, and now I want to try what you suggest with future From games. After many hours I somewhat regret knowing all that I do about ER. I love Elden Ring, and I do want to know everything about it, but I wish I went in as blind wretch because I can't go back now and learn it all for myself, other's youtube guides have stuck in my brain and I can't unlearn it. I just didn't expect I'd feel that way, and I want you to know you convinced me to try something else in the future.
I did a bit of both, for the vast majority of things i was blind, but for others i got spoiled(goddamnit maximilian dood spoiling the malenia second phase and prod a certain weapon with their thunbnails) and for other thinhs like some quests steps i followed guides, even if by trying to look as little info as possible, and being finally at a point where i can see the endgame, i can say: i don't regret it. I regret the unwilling spoilers for the most part, but with how damn long elden ring has been(200 hours and going in my blindrun) i literally could never have had the experience id did the way i did if not for how i decided to approach it. And the best thing is that with other things i am doing to the side(i.e. drawing maps) i also know that my second run will be just as much if not even more beautiful to play through.
it's fine to do research, I just don't look up how to be overpowered. I look up how to do specific quests if I absolutely can't find where to go, but then there are spoilers and those aren't fun. if I don't know where to go I look it up if I feel I'm wasting time, after all I have a job and I work. the rest is all blind however.
My first play through of darksouls was about a month before dark souls 3 came out, I looked stuff up, took advantage of strategies developed by people with far more time in the game than me, and I had a rotten time. When dark souls 3 released I played through it blind, explored on my own and overcame bosses without the help of outside resources. That was an experience I enjoyed far more. I deeply regret that I will now never be able to have a blind playthrough of Dark Souls. But I am grateful I learned my lesson before the release of elden ring.
@@Catomaster32 I agree, it is my experience and I was not making any sort of argument. But I will say that I have not yet encountered someone who has experienced both and prefers a guided playthrough over a blind one.
@@Catomaster32 Can you really "prove" that blind is better or worse ? It's up to the person. Everyone is gonna feel different about how they like to play the game
@@bingus2464 i prefer a guided playthrough i don’t like replaying game and also don’t have the time so i try to see everything on one go, and also you say you are not making an argument but at the same time you present that you haven’t seen proof of people liking playing guided so you are kinda making an argument
@@dusty7782 I think a lot of people are trying to prove that a blind game is better, this whole debate reminds me to undertale and how annoying and aggressive people were always reminding new players to play blind, on the other hand how aggressive people were trying to push new players onto one specific run or way of playing
I am so glad I did a blind playthrough for Elden ring. by the time I got into the souls series which was about a year before Elden ring I already knew most of the games and resorted to videos and guides to make a build I thought would be fun. I still really enjoyed the games, but I sometimes wish I got into the series back when DS1 came out. From what I've heard finding all these secrets and stuff as a small community back in the day was an amazing experience and I wished I had been a part of that. Elden Ring was my chance to experience this! I made sure I wouldn't be spoiled or influenced in the way I played for my first playthrough and it was pure bliss, it took me around a 100 hours to beat and I enjoyed every second and will always value that experience. Some of my friends picked up the game even though they had never played a souls and used guides and videos which I don't think is wrong in any way and they still became completely addicted to this game. I am not sure if they would have had a better experience if they played blind but that is not my point anyway. I just wanted to share how much of an experience playing this game was for me.
I think a lot of it boils down to this (the same thing that happens in fighting games); there are people who play for fun and people who play to Win, and the latter half don't care how it's done - the moment they start losing they stop having fun (and send me rude mail). I would rather lose every fighting game match I ever played by a sliver of health than take them all by a landslide, but in my experience I am in the minority there. Most seem to want to get OP early or mitigate their risks so that the threat of constant loss or the tedium of exploring and grinding (which many love) doesn't ruin the experience for them. Hope that makes sense.
I think it's less fun vs. winning, and more about the core problematic group feeling like their achievements were less impressive if others find easier ways to solve it. I for example find the stigma against (spirit) summons quite the definition of anti-fun, as they have a lot of interactions with the world and are quite clearly intended to be used, and that's probably why there's the amount of double (or even triple) bosses there are, and the one point Ratatoskr alluded to I disagreed with in the first video. The difficulty slider in souls games for me have always been the level, and to some degree weapon upgrades, if it starts getting easy I just stop leveling/upgrading for a while, and after that pretty much anything that's not a pure exploit goes, but if people wanna keep going at that point because they're more invested in the story not getting held up by difficulty, they definitely should keep powering up.
@@MissSmoozie Totally. I personally like the ashen summons because they are like portable versions of NPCs from souls games past - a fail safe measure incorporated so that people with no Internet connection and players wanting a revisit ten years down the road still stand a chance against problematic encounters when there isn't a friendly soul to be found. Played DaS2 lately? It's a ghost town.
Fun VS Winning seems way oversimplified. They're plenty of people who will use cheese just because that's fun to them, and also plenty of people who will avoid cheese just so they can get an earned win.
@@beyondtrash1627 Now define 'earned' and what it means to different people. It always comes back to the term 'game.' The moment it stops being casual fun and becomes an onus of sorts it stops being a fun dalliance and becomes more of a rigamarole or gauntlet of expectations.
I've run into this with friends before, not about a Fromsoft game, but about new experiences in general that they've barely or never tried. Those friends will sometimes be adamant that they know for sure they wont or flat out *can't* enjoy the thing, despite never having really given it the benefit of the doubt. Interestingly, they aren't unaware of this, and will usually tell me that they don't *need* to try the thing to know they wont like it; that they've "reasoned out" it's not for them. This feels like a trap to me, mostly because I've been in that same situation many times, but have instead given the thing that "I wont like" a proper chance. It's not always the case, but many times I've learned I was mistaken in assuming I'd dislike the thing - sometimes, *very* wrong, as the thing turned into an honest passion of mine. With this knowledge, I often try to really encourage people to ignore what they think, and try a thing anyway, knowing statistically that they'll be mistaken about at least *some* of the things they think they don't like. Unfortunately, those conversations usually play out similarly to how this current discourse is playing out. The best conclusion I've come to, is that some - maybe most? - people just really hate being told that they might not know what they do and don't enjoy. It feels to me like that notion is interpreted as inherently argumentative, and thus a form of aggression. They don't hear "I think you might enjoy it, so give it a shot!", but instead they hear "You're wrong/dumb for thinking that, and I know better!".
Absolutely, even i who surprisingly (and i mean it, i'm no market analyst or whatever, i just read interviews every once in a while) am EXTREMELY good at foretelling how a game it's gonna be like before release have found myself quite a few times surprised by titles i didn't much of but instead became a fan of. People just don't know what they want, yet feel 100% sure they do know.
No offense, but if you really think “I think you might enjoy it, so give it a shot!” is the usual way people who call out cheese chooses to go about it, you really haven’t seen much of what’s going on in this community.
@@macrosis1674 I'm only talking about myself, ratatosker, the thoughts he expressed in this video, and the comments he received on his last video that prompted him to make this one. I'm sure, yes, there are many bad faith actors out there, but they weren't the subjects of my comment.
TL;DR because I wrote something kinda long and rambly: I don’t think it’s a black and white situation, when it comes to cheese and looking things up, play the way you most enjoy. I recommend going in blind to find a style you enjoy playing, then looking stuff up to find stuff you either missed or would enhance your existing build. I kinda disagree on a few fronts with this video but I also agree with the spirit. Elden ring is the first FS game I’ve looked stuff up for and it’s probably been the most I’ve enjoyed one. In my experience even playing blind you can unintentionally “cheese” bosses or not engage with certain mechanics entirely simply because you didn’t know any better. My prime example is DS1 a game I went into entirely blind, I first tried O&S and I used a summon. Later I went on to read that people thought using summons were an invalid way of playing the game and were cheesing the bosses because you didn’t have to engage with them the “intended” way. At first this kinda crushed me an soured my enjoyment of a lot of the game, hearing that I didn’t play the game the “right way” took away from my experience and the effort I genuinely put in. Now that I’m older I realize how ridiculous that is and that anyone dictating how you should enjoy a game is being a bit gatekeepery. In other games there have been entire areas and bosses I missed out on because I didn’t look anything up, there were mechanics I straight up never even engaged with that would’ve been a lot of fun for me because I didn’t know about them. Items that really would’ve improved my experience and play style that I had no idea existed. Yes I think there’s a lot of enjoyment in discovering these things for yourself but I also think people should be open to looking stuff up after you feel like you’ve completed an area or things they feel would enhance their play style. For me I looked up where to find the greatsword both because I loved berserk and because big dumb idiot with a big sword is my preferred play style. I looked up armor that had higher poise because it helped with my slow heavy attack strategy, I looked up spells that provided buffs after I discovered a few and realized I enjoyed that style, I looked up niche talismans I would’ve completely missed otherwise, and I looked up dungeons for areas I thought I’d already completed. It’s been a lot of fun naturally discovering new stuff in this game, but looking stuff up so I don’t miss stuff or so I can improve my existing build has dramatically improved my enjoyment of this game. This is the part where I say I never beat DS1 because I didn’t know where to go to find the four kings, the bed of chaos, or Gwynn. If I’d just looked it up I would’ve beaten the game in a few more hours. Going in blind is great but it can also have serious draw backs that can ruin the experience. Like spending a couple hours with a massive health rebuff because you didn’t know how to cure it and had to figure it out yourself. Also, if you can play with a friend, talking on discord while exploring and playing through this game is a lot of fun and it’s so enjoyable to be discovering different things and areas and sharing what you find. And being summoned in to help with a boss is so much fun
Those windups exist to deny you dodging skills learnt outside of the souls series. The black knight from ds1 is also like that and filters many new players. Personally I don't like learning through trial and error this way, but at least they made bonfires more frequent and make the walk back to the boss simpler. The crucible knight can suck my cockerel, insane move variance and no timer between using the same attack more than once, plus he can mix moves into each other fairly easily.
@@idunno402 ain’t gunna lie killed crucible knight before Margit because he was easier for me lol i died to him so so many times before I did him hitless
Love the way you explain your viewpoints in general man , not to mention you have a relaxing voice . Great video as always , people just get prickly when they think are being criticized
I have a possibly unrelated comment. I have just now been able to get to the second area of the game. I started playing it day one. I want to play it every day, but my life has been so hectic and crazy that I can barely fit in a couple hours a week to gameplay. I do agree with you that a blind playthrough would give the best experience, and that's how I want to play, but in my case (and I'm sure I'm not alone) my slow pace means that if I want a truly blind playthrough, I basically have to disconnect from the Elden Ring community. I can't watch any videos, or discuss any commentary. Now of course for a game I'm so excited about, and considering all my friends are playing at a much faster pace, talking about the game in the discord chat, this is pretty difficult. It's not even a 'avoid spoilers' thing. I'd literally have to go off the friend call any spare night I get to play, and I dunno, that seems isolating. Part of enjoying the game is discovering all these cool things and sharing them with people, at least for me. But when you're forced to a slower pace then others, the faster folks get to share all these cool OP things, and you want to try them out, to try to keep pace with the conversation. And then when someone tells you 'you're cheesing the game by looking up/getting these OP options sooner then you should have' my response is like 'what, do I have to wait until next year when I finally get to that location in the game cause of all the real life shit going on right now? Will you still be talking about how cool 10 second FP azure comet is in a year? Will it even still be in the game, or will Fromsoft patch it out/nerf it?" I just want to find neat things and share them too. I never got the Mimic Tear before it was changed, and I just feel the conversation about these things slipping away from me.
One point that I think you did not stress enough is that people might still decide they would rather look stuff up after trying not to, and they're totally allowed to do so and they're allowed to think that it's more fun this way. The argument is that you should at least try and you might be missing out because looking stuff up is much easier. But you might actually love the challenge if you give it a try. I agree with everything else you said in this video, it's not gatekeeping or elitism. Apparently this topic is much more sensitive than one would think lol
For that last part, I'm going to use a food analogy here, but bear with me for a moment. Someone cooks a dish for you their own way. You suggest that the next time, they try cooking it a different way, because they might like it. This suggestion is in no way you saying they should feel bad as a cook, saying they should never use their own way ever again, or that you know more about cooking than them. You are simply extrapolating that if you, a human being, liked that dish another way, they might do too. In modern times, even such a thing is seen, by a small subset of people, as rude and/or mean at best, and as morally wrong at worst. The simple fact that you had anything to say about their way of doing things is already over the line. And you know what ? I think it's sad that these people ended up this way, but it's not their fault. As far as I can tell, these are people who have suffered from being invalidated, put down, or told how to live their life too many times. Humans tend to do that by default, and the Internet hivemind has taken it even further. Their zero tolerance policy on anyone having anything to say about how they decide to do stuff, while sadly making them miss potentially constructive criticism or suggestions, is simply a defense mechanism they adopted, possibly without even realising it.
New analogy to fit what actually happened in the first video: You cook something for me using standard ingredients that anyone would expect to be in the dish. It’s good, everyone enjoys it. I then stand up and tell you that you are “just wrong” for using certain ingredients and that my way of doing it is better. You see, two people can have different opinions, and both of them can be right. It’s no longer an “opinion” when you try to state it as a fact by telling someone else their opinion is “just wrong”.
@@WeinerTouchy He never stated that his way to play is better for everyone, or other ways of playing are wrong. His message was "I enjoyed it more this way, and many others have too. Consider trying it." I'm curious what exactly gave you the message that he was saying everyone else is "just wrong", rather than stating an opinion that he prefers a different way?
Both these analogies aren't completely applicable. When someone cooks something for you, they give you something. Telling them another way to do it after they've made the meal for you is kind of rude. In the videos, he's not telling people that are giving him anything. A better analogy would be perhaps rockclimbing. Someone climbs a wall and they asked a more experienced climber for help on where to go and put their feet/hands to climb it easier before they started. They climbed the wall, nobody is denying that. But then someone suggests to them that they might want to try climb the wall themselves, without asking for help. Maybe they would enjoy the task of figuring exactly where to go and which techniques to use.
@@WeinerTouchy as someone already pointed it out, there is a huge difference between the statement "there is more value in a blind playthrough" vs "i find more value in a blind playthrough for myself" . And the first video defintely meant the latter, it is sad that people interpret as the former for some reason. it is just a suggestion , and not a malevelent one at all. i personally find the latter more enjoyable so i suggest others to do so cuz i want everyone to enjoy the fromsoft magic if blind playthroughs, now blind playthroughs doesnt mean u gotta rip out ur internet connection and never ever look up anything ever no matter the cost, but more like: dont try to look everything uo beforehand, it is not a job about ur efficiency, it is a game to enjoy, and u will never know what u enjoy the most unless u never try different methods
For what is worth, your first video was already pretty clear to me. I don't feel you are being condensending in your explenation. You just have an opinion (A pretty open-minded one) and just want to share it. Nothing else. I think it's great that you had this fantastic experience with the From Software's games and try to tell people about it without imposing the way you see things. I don't agree with everything you say but it is great to see someone open to the dialogue and not just judging others because they choose to play the game one way or another. Anyway ... Keep up the good work ! I'm already waiting for the next video ! See ya !
I think Elden Ring has an issue that other FromSoft games don't: It's a giant world, with much repetition, reused monsters, crypt/mine layouts, etc. I really enjoyed it playing it blind up until about 40-50 hours, but it really started to get tedious after that. The game's main quest is constructed in a way, that you can't just easily hop from one lord's dungeon into the other's one, you will be too weak that, and you will be definitely need to level up. Of course, grinding monsters is boring, so you go out and explore the world, find secrets, do mini-dungeons, fight cool boss fights, etc. and leveling up by actually doing something fun. But after a while the repetition will became obvious, it will start to feel as grinding, and you just want to finish the game, yet there's still way too much to go, and a lot of them will be all the same stuff you already saw. So what's left to do is you either beat the main dungeons/bosses on a much harder difficulity then it was intended by the devs, or you start cheesing the game as much as you can, including bosses. I think making the world this big, is actually a downside compared to DS1 for example. I think you are right that not cheesing bosses is the most rewarding and fun way to play, but I also think that FromSoft cheesed the development by extending their world too much without adding enough variety to make it exciting through and through, and after 50 hours it really starts to feel like I'm playing something by Ubisoft. So that's my excuse haha. Btw, if you play on PS4, deaths are suddenly even more punishing then you might have used to, because post-death loading times are unreasonably long, especially if you are fighting against a new boss you haven't figured out yet: You fight, you die in 30 secs, then wait a minute for loading, then you walk back to the boss room in another 30 secs (or more). Sure, the PS4 is old tech, and has an HDD, slower loading times are given, but it's not just that, because if you get revived in the area where you died, there is absolutely no need for the game, to reload all the assets again, they just have to reset the monsters and breakable objects, and that's it. There are games like Celeste or reIterate() which are much harder then Elden Ring, but it's also much less frustrating to die in those games, because you can get right back into playing without waiting for minutes.
nah i play on PS4 & this is not my experience whatsoever. like load times are annoying but i haven't noticed them be any worse than previous games. it just makes me more excited to play it on an sdd one day also I am playing effectively blind. By that I mean once i've been out of an area for a bit / i think i might have missed something i want to find & have no idea where to even begin to look, i will do a judicious google search to find one piece of information i didn't already have, then put the browser away & return to the game to try to do something with this knowledge. i've done this maybe five times in 200 hrs? (first playthrough still, btw) idk that's just my experience.
Hey R, I like your videos. You're level-headed and thoughtful. I like hearing your opinions. I think the issue I had with your last video basically comes down to the definition of 'cheese' being used. To me and others, the word carries negative connotations, even an implication that it is cheating. You and Scott certainly see it differently. Scott even expressed a positive slant on it, as in the cleverness in speed running. I can see that point of view as well. However, I (like you) enjoy playing a blind run because I think it is very fun/satisfying to discover things for myself, go through the process of figuring out the bosses for myself. Stuff like that. Imagine I found the big boom spell and the unlimited FP flask, and imagine I realized how well they would work together by my own creativity, not from watching somebody show it off on RUclips. When you then call it 'cheesing' when I used it to kill a boss, to me it diminishes the discovery of the item and the creativity of combining it with another amazing thing I found on my own wits. The boss was only trivialized because I went into the fight well prepared. When you call that 'cheesing,' it lumps it in together with people who just looked it up, where to find the item and how to use it. See how those are two very different things? I think it is worthwhile to have a word to distinguish people who figure things out for themselves and play the game within the rules of the game creators and those people who find ways to break the rules or look up solutions online. Not that there is anything wrong with that; it's a matter of preference. I have been gamer for a very long time, and in my experience 'cheese' is the word to distinguish these two play styles. Respect.
I absolutely agree with everything you've said here, and in the previous video. Especially the idea that players should try to play through these games the first time through 100% blind. The way I see it, if you go into this game thinking "It's going to be too hard for me, I should just look up how to be strong," and do that for your first playthrough, there's no real turning back. You've given up your one opportunity to do it all blind and organically, and now you have knowledge that will make future playthroughs that little bit easier or less mysterious. As you've said at one point or another, that's kind of robbing the player of a valuable experience. Fromsoft's games are so beautiful to me because of the countless little moments of surprise, whether it's as simple as an enemy popping out from behind a corner or a majestic view you weren't expecting to emerge in front of you. Watching a playthrough or a guide cheapens each and every one of these moments by experiencing them secondhand, and that's why I personally will always go 100% blind until the game rolls credits. That being said, if someone doesn't care about any of that, they have absolutely no obligations to play the game the way I do, and that's okay. Let's just all enjoy video games together. At the end of the day, if you're having fun, you're doing it right.
I agreed with you until everything except the end. If someone were to ask someone "which game is better ____ or Elden Ring" what the person values in a game will reflect in their answer. the converation here is less about "Fun" in a game and more about "Value" in a game. in some peoples brain they only know how to operate in "Fun" and they dont understand video games as a medium for an artistic experience.
@@freshtodef123456789 I can agree with that. What one thinks will be the most fun path might not end up being the most impactful one. Which is why I echoed Ratatoskr's desire to encourage people to not immediately look to guides and instead experience the game to its fullest without outside influence. But we have no right to police people toward that behavior, and when it comes down to it, people are capable of making their own decisions. All we can do is offer suggestions / advice.
I think your previous video was perfectly fine! It has encouraged me to ditch online resources in my own playthrough and I find myself actually enjoying the game more because I'm not just ticking off an extensive shopping list. I can echo a few of the others here where I think everyone has very different definitions of what "cheese" is, which is made even more complicated by having a souls like rpg set in an open world. Hats off for you offering your take on the discussion, and getting people talking. That is what really matters!
Bashing on 'souls elitists' has become far more common than actual souls elitists. It feels like a 10 to 1 ratio or worse these days. I love the struggle then conquer play pattern of From games, though, and I've agreed with these last couple of videos.
i think it carried over. i remeber calling people try hard to protect my ego when i was younger. now the young kids seem to call them sweaty. even though i was one of them , i dont get why people hate people who are better at games.
Most commonly the bashing of Souls Elitists that I normally see it's an easy strawman they want to attack of an argument that only happens in their head with them as the winner.
Your content is awesome . Everyone has their own take and you have great points. I just finished Mohg Lord of Blood. The satisfaction of engaging the boss and triumphing is what this game is about . Not shooting 300 arrows from a statue outside arena .. I died sooo many times lol
Idk, man, I’ve fought Demon of Hatred both normally and by making him fall off the arena… and I definitely had more fun killing him the second way XD It’s all down to personal preference.
Well, I believe the downside to "just try a blind playthrough" is the time spent not having fun in a game. My fiance absolutely prefers to look everything up beforehand because he likes to feel powerful in games like this. That way, when he dies, he knows it's his fault and it has nothing to do with the unoptimized build he made. He tried to play the original dark souls blind and ended up quitting halfway through because he wasn't having fun with the game, sort of like the opposite of your friend. And honestly, even though I prefer blind playthroughs, I'd never suggest he try one again, because I know he wouldn't find it fun. So I do agree with your point, just not the part where you say "there's no downside", because there definitely is.
I definitely understand that time is valuable and that, especially as our lives become more busy, we want to make optimal use of the leisure time we have. So if a blind playthrough ends up being unenjoyable, that time will have provided a less optimal amount of enjoyment compared to looking up an overpowered build and wrecking everything without having to learn the game naturally. Time is very limited, and it is in our best interests to try to make the best usage of the time we have. But as an addendum to your comment (not a counter point), I think most people will agree that some amount of experimentation is necessary to figure out what you want in life. So while there is a downside in the risk of losing some time that could have provided more pleasure, everyone has to make a cost benefit analysis to figure out which experiments are worth trying based on the information they have. There is a possibility that you could discover something that you enjoy more than anything else in your life. I think we all know a kid who refused to eat a food until someone finally persuaded them to try it once and then the kid loved it (that was pancakes for me as a child). But as time goes on we become less willing to experiment because we usually feel like we have less time and energy to devote to things that don’t seem as likely to be enjoyable (though that can vary from person to person). I can definitely understand why anyone (such as Ratatoskr in this case) would want to share something that brings them joy so that others can possibly enjoy it too, which is basically saying "Hey, I think you should consider this info (I found this to be fun) when making that cost benefit analysis on how to spend your time." After all, by having more info, a person should be able to make a more informed decision and hopefully have better chances of having more fun in life, assuming the info is good. Granted, for that sort of thing to really be useful it helps to also know whether the the people involved have similar or wildly different tastes. I think it is fair to say that people don’t always know what they will enjoy and it can be a kindness to nudge them into stepping outside of their comfort zone, but it is also fair to say that it isn’t worth it (or even possible) to try everything once. Some things are pretty unlikely to be enjoyable for a given person, and it is completely fine for that person to look at a suggestion and say, "Nope, I think that’s going to be in the list of things I never try and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it."
Personally, I have fun both playing the games without looking up anything and searching up information. My first "souls" game was Dark Souls which I played though complete blind with a few hints from my older brother who recommended it. I loved it but when I played Bloodborne I ended up looking up information. Dark souls and Bloodborne are my two favorite games from the series and I played them each very differently. So I believe it all just depends.
I feel like the definition of slang like 'cheese' can be a little bit fluid depending on the community. Video games are quite broad as a medium, and there are a lot of smaller micro-cultures that can develop within genres or even individual games. Our time and finances are finite, and we would never be able to truly deep dive into every game and every community even if we wanted to. So I can imagine two people being introduced to and interpreting a specific term in slightly different ways. For example I can see where people are coming from with 'cheese' being unintended exploits, but as someone who primarily heard the term in Starcraft I disagreed. In SC 'cheese' has a very specific definition in which players leverage mechanics to end the match as quickly as possible by sacrificing any hope of victory if it doesn't work out. Like making your workers attack their workers at the very start of the match. You're sacrificing your ability to create a stronger economy and army in favor of hopefully killing them then and there. It's a perfectly valid (if reviled) strategy, and even the pro players have cheese strats in their arsenal. If 'cheese' in that game referred to something unintended or exploitative then the devs would have prohibited it in tournaments and patched it out. That doesn't make it not cheesy. But that's one game's definition of cheese, and there's no guarantee that people with other backgrounds would agree. In regards to Cowboy's tweet being too conclusive or final though, I feel like that's partly the limitation of the medium he's using. I think having character limits like that can alter the way you present your argument, and if he'd make a video essay about it then his take would be much more nuanced. If anything I think you two probably believe the same thing, it's just that Twitter is a godawful platform that will help kill us all
I think you are quite clear and articulate and I appreciate that. You approach these videos with a thoughtfulness that I wish even a small fraction of the human populace would use when talking about anything let alone a video game. In my experience, you can be as clear and concise as possible but there will still be those who are not active listeners and only hear what they want to hear and react without thinking. I am a teacher, we assess children with these learning challenges and despite what people may hope or think, they don't just go away when one becomes an adult. The problem with RUclips discourse is that you cannot engage with these kinds of people with strategies that help them to understand and those who are not self aware of their deficit will often turn to offense the older they get as if they have earned some level of intellectual respect by virtue of existing over an extended period of time. This isn't to say, don't keep trying. In fact, please do. It sets a good example. Just don't let it keep you up at night. Stay humble, hustle hard.
I found your content fairly recently and am already a big fan. You are clearly a very intelligent and well articulated person and as such I really appreciate you looking at your comments and handling the criticism you find valid. With that being said, it’s the internet: a lot of people will take everything you say in bad faith so they can get mad. That’s just how the internet works. I think Joseph Anderson covers why this happens very well in one of his videos (I think it’s why horror games don’t scare me but don’t quote me on that). I know you don’t have to listen to me, but I think responding to the bad faith criticisms only detracts from an already excellent video or at least doesn’t add anything substantial enough to justify their inclusion imo. The dialogue you have with your community is superb but I don’t think conversing with those who don’t really have much to say is either a good look or says what you’re hoping to say. Edit: it’s actually the response to the above mentioned video called “subjectivity is implied”
Being able to explain your opinion with lucidity and without putting down others is a really refreshing thing. I've if I didn't agree with you, I respect the hell out of the way you present yourself and your views. Thanks for doing what you do.
![Gunna - HIM ALL ALONG [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/w7Wf0h1Q8a4/mqdefault.jpg)
ruclips.net/video/Ys111WINs7M/видео.html
"I’m glad someone is finally fighting for us normal people thx for calling him out I’m truly honored to be apart of this righteous battle"
Thats an actual comment lmao 😂😂. I can understand the sentiment but damn, just straight up demonizing the other party....thats a bit too much I think.
Edit: Ah.....wait. I don't understand. Was that guy (in the video) trolling or something?? Damn, now I'm confused. At first I thought he was criticizing but the way he says it makes it hard for me to trust if he's serious or not. Plus its also 1st april so...lol??
Edit 2: And also yes, ratatos mah man, you gotta move on, I think. I don't think there will be a consensus. Tho compared to the last video you seem to have actually gotten your point across to at least a few more people I think. I don't see how much more you can make yourself clear than in this video.
The linked response video is almost certainly an April Fools joke. It has to be. Or I just don’t understand how someone can misunderstand this series of videos so drastically
The whole response is so cringe that I start to believe that it is an april fools joke. But Some comments seem to be serious.
this has gotta be 100% a joke, of epic proportions , cheesing review copies LOL come on 🤣
I don’t know about that Ratatoskr, I looked up cheese in the dictionary and it says it’s a food made from the pressured curds of milk.
Honestly. My disapointment with him is immeasurable. 😔
i cant believe it.
Alienation achieved
If the dictionary says he used the wrong word, then all the points made in his argument immediately lose all credibility too. Pretty sure that's in the rule book for Internet arguments
@@nikcolation try the Bible for internet arguments
Glad someone referenced you to me. Your manner of debate is excellent and I look forward to your future content!
I'm glad he referenced Scott Young as well, I like this guy.
Damn, we've been playing the same games for years
Honestly, I couldn't believe the amount of people who refused to acknowledge that some very obvious examples of cheesing were cheesing. There was a whole lot of slippery slope argumentation of "but then there isn't an obvious cut-off line for what cheesing is so you could argue doing anything is cheesing." But I mean, yeah, it's subjective. Or more like, a gradient from "virtually no cheese" to "a little bit cheesy" to "super cheesy strategy."
The subjective nature of what's cheesing or not is also why it doesn't make sense to tell anyone their win is "illegitimate" for cheesing, because yeah, you can be that guy who says you didn't REALLY beat the boss unless you're SL1 fist only no dodge rolls, and that's stupid.
A lot of weird sophistry that came off as "everyone must validate my chosen method for killing the boss" which is like, okay... But I'm not going to lie to you and say if I'd be satisfied with *myself* if I used what I consider a very cheesy strategy, especially if I hadn't discovered it for myself. Am I elitist because I don't want to do what amounts, to me, as trivialising the game's challenge? Okay.
GET 👏 SCOTT 👏 ON 👏 THE 👏 PODCAST 👏
I always love how sweet Scott is literally all the time except for when someone tries to finger out on a duel 🤣
Hey Ratatoskr, I think I might have some insight to your very last question. If you even end up seeing this.
What might be upsetting to people is that even though you are explaining that playing blind is just a option the vibe you give off is that it's the better way to play.
The way you speak is very calculated, deliberate, and with alot of conviction. Which could come off as arrogant or condescending to some people. I see it as a way for you to fully articulate your thoughts but it could be abrasive to some people in certain situations like this one. When it comes to knowledge about video games we want someone we respect and trust and who has good opinions on the material. You are great at that. On the flip side when it comes to picking sides on issues outside of gaming all of these people who respect you and your content want you to think their way is the best way. Which as you know having thousands of different opinions from us that's impossible for you.
Ways to avoid this, idk I've spent 10 years in management but this is always an issue. You could either avoid taking hard stances on decisive issues like this or when you do try to understand both sides of the argument. Yes there might be people out there who would enjoy playing the game blind like you suggest. But what if one of the people who tried that was one of the people who would have had more fun looking everything up? It's an impossible situation. I think the best argument you could have made in this situation is this. You can't unsee but you can always look. Play blind at first and then if you don't like it look up what you want. I think you implied this in your video but you didn't outright say it.
I don't have an opinion myself on this I just play video games and enjoy them lol. Just my two cents on the topic.
Yes! I'm in agreement with everything here! Also, I love The Witcher 3, and everybody will not agree, but I loved the recommended level system. It gave me an idea of which quests, areas and things I can do at what time. That's a game I didn't look up anything for (of course a much much easier game and combat isn't even comparable and looking up stuff isn't even needed) but ultimately just for builds or playing through it you can still look stuff up and I didn't. My friend and I both enjoyed playing that blind. We both are new to From games with Elden being our first and both of us missed the tutorial, ended up at places where we couldn't do anything and ultimately it was super uncomfortable getting a hang of the game. When we looked up beginner tips, tricks, build guides from fextralife we found our footing and didn't need any more guides or help. We both don't look up ANYTHING to do with bosses because to us bosses are special especially knowing From's legacy so we want it to be special. And imo a lot of the new players are intimidated by this elitism that exists from certain veterans telling us different things. So when you gave the example of your friend I couldn't relate. When I didn't relate I just understood that the advice was meant for other players and not for me or my friend, but a lot of other players perceived Rat's words to imply that the game is supposed to be like that and they're playing a different game one that's less enjoyable or wrong.
I think people get butt hurt over the slightest thing and automatically assume whatever is said is a shot at them. Just play the game how you want, but it doesnt hurt to try to play a diff way either and try it out. If it doesnt tickle your fancy then play the way you always do. No big deal, but people are overly sensitive over games of all things hahahahahaha. Its a game have fun regardless of what anyone says. Ehhh im not disagreeing with you, but i also dont think Ratatoskr has to change or cater to the individuals who will find a problem with everything anyway. He spoke clearly and it all made sense, if someone takes issue with it then so be it, or they probably need to clear the wax out of their ears cause they didnt listen. they might have heard what he said but they didnt listen to what he said. Well Enjoy elden ring, i sure did, and at the end of the day, thats really what the dev's want anyway.
Agreed, while he tries to maintain unbiased views; his speech makes him clearly biased
TL;DR the world is getting increasingly more populated by thin-skinned insecure overreacting little crybabies, so don't be surprised at the butthurt leveled at confident and strong opinions.
At some point you shouldn't have to cater to oversensitive people. Which doesn't mean you should just not care about what other people might think, you should take that into account, but you should also know that no matter what, someone will be offended if they want, and the only way to avoid it is to not say anything. Which as a content creator, wouldn't be such a good idea.
He actually said that in the video, if someone hears his advice of not looking things up but isn't enjoying the game, they can start looking things up at any moment. Or if it's someone who already knows they really hate not looking things up, they can just ignore his advice.
He doesn't need to explicitly say those things, because they're obvious, and they might be counterproductive to people who would benefit from following his advice but just might take a bit longer to realize how fun they actually find it.
The last section honestly hurt a bit. Just keep being you, you've made yourself as clear as possible without insulting anyone. No time for bad faith actors that simply refuse to listen.
“Bad faith actors” lmao. Right out of San Harris’s vocabulary notebook. You realize that Retatosker is doing a Sam Harris impression right?
Yeah what they're doing is speech censorship and thought policing. Telling us we're not allowed to say something and also not allowed to have opinions. Which obviously stems from their insecurity about their mechanical disability and bad reaction times, which in turn makes them unable to beat a mere game.
It's literally "I got offended by your opinions. So you shouldn't say it anymore." hehe I'll spam git gud to every fool from now on. It'll be fun to see them rage
I don’t get how he insulted anyone, all he’s really saying is to give a blind play through a try before instantly looking up OP strats/builds
It's like these people don't understand where the word "Spoilers" comes from, and its connotations. How dare he suggest that things might be more enjoyable fresh?
This is why I watch your videos. Not just because of the content, but how you strive to be clear with your views and wording. I recently watch another RUclipsr with an unpopular take, and the way he responded was pretty... bad. Definitely could have been worse, but he didn't take it well. This is how follow up videos are made to clarify points. Well done.
His definition of "cheesing" is way too vague. If it's cheesing to use powerful mechanics that kill bosses quickly, is it also cheesing to keep playing and come back and fight a boss when you've leveled up? If you've leveled up enough, the boss will be melted just as easily, especially in the early game. People refer to cheesing as breaking things like enemy AI and positioning because otherwise the concept of cheesing becomes so arbitrary that any mechanic that the another person doesn't like will be called cheesing.
@@joelnelson4228 I think that's the nature of the word "cheese" though. Most people will disagree as to what cheesing is because they'll draw the line somewhere beyond what they themselves do, mainly because, as was pointed out in the video, most people view cheesing as a bad thing. I think the vague definitions works because it allows each individual to draw the line where they want. If someone wants to draw the line at game glitches, they can. If someone wants to draw the line where you mentioned (coming back at a higher level, etc.) then I guess they can. I'd disagree wholeheartedly, just like I do with Ratatoskr. I actually think the example of using a big spell with regenerating FP isn't cheesing. I think if you put the work in to find it, you get to use it.
TLDR: I think a vague definition of "cheese" is fine because I don't think you'd get a clear consensus as to what would be considered cheesing and what wouldn't. At least, not until the Word Gods put it in an actual dictionary.
I mean, yes. Overleveling is a kind of cheese. That's why you're OVER-leveled. Having fought a max level character in DS3 that had only unupgraded weapons against my level 65 with only +6 Raw weapons; the damage difference wasn't off by much but I had to hit him so many more times because of his huge health pool. So by his standards, Dragonslayer Armor wouldn't be anywhere near as hard as it would've for myself. You still take away from learning the mechanics of the fight when all you have to do is face tank and spam light attacks.
@@milesdp1990 But it also means that engaging in this debate is meaningless because everyone is running with their own definition of the term. At least if you're talking about things that glitch the game, you can clearly define a glitch. If we are including real game mechanics then cheese ultimately means "anything that I think is too easy".
So depending on who you ask, everyone has cheesed this game unless the only way you play is naked SL1 with your bare fists.
@@withoutatrace7711 Who gets to define when someone is over-leveled though?
Plently of people play at level 1.
Are all players cheesing then unless they are level 1?
Not sure if anyone noted this before. Fighting Cowboy, makes damn detailed walkthroughs. He has always stated quite strongly that you should not utilize his walkthrough until you have played the game blind at least once. He wants his guides to be post first play through as a means to Platinum or secure missed items. Similar to the message delivered here.
There’s not a sentence to be said that everyone will get behind. How helpful your suggestions are is entirely dependent upon how your audience applies that information and how we apply that information alludes to the scope of our imagination (at least momentarily). I, for one, appreciate the effort, time and thought you’ve put into your content. Thanks and Cheers!
I agree with this statement entirely. Brandon Darkis said it all. Practically nothing else here for me to say. Someone out there will clash with an opinion you may have and react in the only way they grew up knowing. Whether with or without regard of the intent and meaning behind said opinion.
I disagree. Stop telling me how to play, or understand stuff 🤣🤣🤡🤡 jkjk
@@blueprinkle6965 oof
I think this point that @Brandon Darkis is making is a good one to get behind. Not everyone will agree with what you say, and also, even people who agree with you usually, don’t always agree with you. I think the comments you highlighted at the end of the video are just a natural consequence of those two facts, paired with the points you’ve already made about feeling like you didn’t communicate your points properly in the first video.
The best advice I can give, @Ratatoskr, is to do your best to not worry about what those people said before. I’m sure some of them who end up watching this video will have changed their minds, and those that don’t are probably wrong about their use of the term “gatekeeping” in that context. I definitely have disagreed with some of your points in the past, and I did disagree with your definition of “cheesing” in the last video, but I do find myself agreeing much more with the points you made in this video. You’re really not wrong, and I think you did a very good job explaining yourself in this video.
cheesing is bypassing gameplay mechanics. the degree to which you do so is a gradient. and the definition lies somewhere between avoiding the enemy's swing by jumping and glitching the godskin's AI to be turned off. each person picks a different point to define cheesing and in most of these arguments they pick a point on the gradient just to left of whatever activity they are doing. This is because in there head YOUR definition of cheesing devalues their efforts if their activity is considered cheesing. these people will always devise a justification to argue that what they did was fine. And it is fine! its also probably cheese strats. These things are not mutually exclusive.
This should be the pinned comment
Avoiding a hitbox isn't bypassing the mechanics-in fact it's the exact opposite. If an attack would have damaged you, but you did something to avoid that damage, you are interacting with the mechanics, as intended. 'Bypassing' the attack would mean standing in a place where it simply can't hit-like out of bonds, or in a part of the arena the boss can't reach-or prevent the attack from happening in the first place by, for example, manipulating-or outright breaking-the A.I. One of these is definitely cheesing, the other is definitely not, and there isn't really much of a gradient to it-either the mechanics are working as intended, or they aren't.
Yes, this bothers people more though when they place validation from external sources above their own internal principles and choices. I don’t think it’s even worth reasoning with such arguments. Brings to mind this Mark Twain quote:
“Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”
Exactly. Cheese is bypassing the gameplay mechanics. It doesn't matter what your method is, so long as it results in you bypassing the mechanics of the game it's cheesing.
Jumping to avoid an attack is not on the gradient of cheese. Should you just get hit and die? There’s many attacks in this game that basically require jumping to avoid.
From what I understand, the uses of the term "cheesing" comes from the fighting game community back in the 90s and was generally used to refer to situations like relying on a character with an infinite combo to win. I heard a story about Primal Rage where if the devs at one point patched teh game where if you won using Riptor's near infinite combo the game would display "Cheesey" instead of "You Win." The thing is, though, Riptor thematically was meant to have huge long combos, that was the design of the character. But it was still cheese.
In the same era, casters were using cheesing to describe early game army rushes in RTS games. There is no one place the word comes from, and there certainly is not a single definition of it either.
You're so patient and reasonable in your response! This channel is a real breath of fresh air. You're a model for how all disagreement and opinion should be presented. Also you aren't gatekeeping at all. Gotta keep in mind that a certain number of commenters didn't watch the entire video or are literally children. For what it's worth, I disagreed with you at the start of part 1 but realized by the end our opinions had more in common than not, because I listened to your points! If a commenter didn't pay attention to the first video idk why they would to this second video
Agreed.
I watched your "play as a wretch" video before the game came out and agree with a lot of the points made. I started as vagabond but approached the entire game with no guides, doing this meant i had to search everything, I'm sitting at about 240 hours now and still have not yet beat the game (I have some of lake of rot, deeproot depths to search and I am on godfrey as my next boss.) This is solely due to fully exploring the environment, double and triple checking that i am not missing anything in an area before moving on. I appreciate the advice you gave to not look things up as much as possible, it made this game a rewarding adventure. (I've only ever played DS3 through once, as a background).
I tried that but i had to look up some of the npc quests because i would rater quit playing before i search the whole map for one guy that moved places after like 20h of gameplay. Then again maybe i don´t deserve the cool questline if i don´t find every single step by myself.
But fuck i would have never looked for these people in those places, like ever.
I did the exact same thing, and was mesmerized about how quick people were finishing the first play through, just now recently I understand why, and it's cool you are going the same path
@@Spinexus nah don't feel bad about that shit. Some of that stuff is easy to miss. I like to try and do as much as I can on my first playthrough, but I always end up missing some stuff and then look it up on my 2nd run. Definitly doesn't mean you don't still deserve the experience. The beauty of Fromsoft games is you can play them however you want.
@@Spinexus Same here, tbh. I done most of my run blind (currently at 130h against the Fire Giant and a great of secondary content delt with), but I knew there were some things that were missing for a couple quest lines that I either missed because I passed by an area earlier in the game and there was nothing (Hyetta, for example) or because the next step was just impossible to guess and you justs had to really just stumble upon it (Ranni quest line when you've already progressed on and did some stuff beforehand).
I tried to avoid looking at the wiki as much as possible, but there are points at which I had to because it was driving me insane to follow what I was being told to do and there was nothing because I had explored too much x)
TL;DR - Don't be ashamed of looking stuff up when you're stuck and don't shame people for doing it either. Have fun fellow tarnished
Man, I felt that you were on point with everything you said. You were well pondered on the points about gatekeeping and interacting with the games mechanics. Your argument on "cheesing" was actually pretty clear and fair.
I thought he was clear about it in his first video, too. I just think those people didn't watch the video lol
I think going in blind is a valuable experience to have in these games, and most games at that. Failing and trying again is an important part of the learning process, as far as the intended gameplay loop is concerned.
Now I like to go into these games mostly fresh myself, but I'm not afraid to look some things up. For example in my primary playthrough of Elden Ring I have done some light searching of the wiki to determine if there are more powerful spells or weapons to be found later that are within the weapon class I am using. Specifically I have searched up incantations, some weapon types, and tips for how game mechanics work. I also do look up character locations so I can try and avoid missing out on questline steps, but I've already missed several minor opportunities anyway by getting further in the game. So I guess you could say I'm somewhere in the middle on this particular topic.
I think this is the best stance to take. Everything is always on a sliding scale and it's different for every person. It really comes down to what you are doing to yourself by looking things up. Personally I've looked through the armor page on the wiki to see what outfit I liked best and see how far in the game it was. Is that likely to ruin my experience of the game, no. But if I was looking up which armor has the best stats the earliest it maybe could. Or I looked up how to swing left on the horse. Is that making the game less fun. No, in fact the game probably should mention somewhere that you can swing with the left LB/L1 even though it unequips your left hand weapon. You just have to be aware that looking things up has a potential to lower your enjoyment of the game the same way it could increase it.
I think both sentiments shouldn't be taken too much at heart. His advice about the valuable experience, to me at least, is a no-brainer irl when it comes to life skills and social experience. With video games, one should try to take it as another perspective, not a black and white situation. Make it part of your arsenal.
In my case, looking up stuff on the wiki will not in any way deter my experience in playing the game, but watching videos is different. I am always saving up money and carefully curate which game I'd buy, and for those I'm interested in but decided to not buy I'd watch the gameplay/playthrough/let's play online. Because I've been doing that for over a decade now, and became a habit, it almost always (sort of) gives me a feeling of satisfaction as if I was actually playing the game. Hence why text spoilers don't affect me most of the time, either I forget or I have zero context at all pertaining the information.
Honestly what I took from that first video was “play how you want, but I strongly recommend at least trying to engage with these boss fights because you may be missing out on an enjoyable experience”
Which is how I play these games. Eventually, if a boss just isn’t clicking for me, I might “cheese” or use strats that don’t engage just to move on. But I try to engage with it a handful of times first.
I actually got so shook by Margit at first that there was a chunk of the game where I would walk through fog, immediately summon ashes and use ranged without even knowing what the bosses were. I regret it now, because a bit later a totally unexpected fight took me down to the wire without those things on hand, I barely won, and I realized “holy crap this is why I’ve always loved these games, I’ve been missing out. And stopped doing that. However I may still use those in frustrating fights after some attempts. Which is fine. But I just can’t imagine having much fun running in and doing azure comet without ever even seeing what the boss is about. On the flip side, I could see myself doing that (if I even had the stats), after so many attempts just to move on. So I get your point, I experienced it first hand, and mostly agree. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with doing these things, but I do think people may be missing out if they go there right away. Ultimately though if you do find that fun, go for it.
“play how you want, but I strongly recommend at least trying to engage with these boss fights because you may be missing out on an enjoyable experience”
The problem with this is that you have to research before fighting a lot of bosses if you want to do that.
Bosses like the misbegotten or Renalla get completely destroyed by fast weapons.
Other bosses like the crystalians get destroyed if you have a weapon that can poise break easily.
I'm on my second playthrough and decided to use the claws (which I missed on my first playthrough) and have enough int and faith to use the weapon enchants. A lot of bosses just die, bosses that I had a lot of trouble, like the abductor virgins, I killed them with no problem at lvl 38 with my new build. I don't have a specialized build, I still haven't read any guide or any kind of information, I just did what it felt interesting.
Even if you ignore 90% of the things you can do, there are a lot of bosses that you won't be able to engage just because they are weak to your build.
Beautifully said
I agree with everything in this comment. Main thing I took from the video was have fun and treat each other nicely.
Nice
Some people might enjoy building a powerful character and melting a boss's health bar though. I have played these games both ways and I enjoy both for different reasons.
If we're going to argue that reducing the challenge of the game for yourself is going to make for a less enjoyable experience, that would imply that those who fight naked without weapons or levelling up are enjoying the game the most. Hell in all games you could have melee builds that were cheesy as hell, good STR builds were basically Easy Mode Number 2 in DS1, after good INT builds, and those were super popular
Looking stuff up is actually what got me to love the series. When I was playing Dark Souls the first time, I was dying a lot and never knew what to do so I gave up. Years later I found the walkthrough from EpicNameBro and after watching the whole thing, I finally knew how to play the game and played the game on my own to completion. Now I've beaten every Soulsborne without looking most stuff up for the sake of challenge. It was definitely more satisfying without looking it up but the elation I felt when beating the first game despite watching a walkthrough has yet to be matched... Beating the Bloodborne dlc got pretty close though, lol
Same not looking stuff up for me always make me enjoy a game less
Yeah I usually try to go "spoiler free" always when a new Souls launches, but then I see some cool weapon on an invasion or something and I have to look it up.
this proves that the no-looking stuff up- advice is fine, because if you take the advice, notice you are losing interest, then look stuff up if you want. If you don't take Ratatoskr's advice, look stuff up, and start losing interest, then there could be solutions if it turns out you enjoy not looking up stuff more, but that may involve making an entirely new character, or more minor things like not AI-freezing a boss and finding that you enjoy it more.
Pretty much how i am, i was actually losing interest in trying to play blind to where i had to make excuses to play it, so i said fuck it, watched some videos, cheeses, guides, tips, lores, memes, etc, and I've been playing nonstop.
I took your advice to play wretch and tried to remain as outside-info free as possible and it's been an amazing experience, so thank you! As someone who actually appreciates advice on how to maximise my enjoyment, being told "play however you want" is useless.
I don't know what to do, I don't know where to go, all I know is, that I need some pants. #NoPantsGang
@@EleKartoffel I'm like a guy chasing pants, I don't know what I will do when I catch it.
I also followed that advice, and it worked for me... for about 2-3 hours, as I had horrible luck with item drops in the early game and only completed a competent set of armor / weapons 7-8 hours in the game. When everything can one-shot you and you have to rollspam all multiple enemy encounters, it gets annoying quick. Once I gathered a decent set of armor and leveled to around level 12 was when I actually started having fun in the game, as it felt I have a fighting chance and don't have to cheese out enemies one by one.
And then around level 35 I figured out I didn't euqip a single talisman, so that turned the next 20hours of gameplay into easy mode for me :D...
I also played wretch. Best playstyle, especially at respec time.
Wretch is so good, it lets you choose your class whilst playing, granted early game might be a bit difficult at times, which for me is the best class.
I got to the souls franchise from watching speedruns of Dark Souls 1, 2, Demons Souls and Bloodborne. I played all four after seeing the "fastest" way to beat them and obviously this did influence my playthroughs. I enjoid all of the games and have done repeat playthroughs for all apart from DS2 and Demons Souls.
DS3 was the first one I got to play blind since it got released after I got introduced to the series and I was able to play it immeadetly unlike Bloodborne, which I got a year or so after release. I played DS3 by itself more than I had played the rest of From Softwares titles solely from falling in love the way discovering stuff works in these games. The same happened with the dlcs, sekiro and now Elden Ring.
All I can say after these personal experiences is that I wholeheartedly agree to suggesting people to try playing the games blind, since it is a great personal enjoinment factor. Me and you suggesting to play the game a certain way doesn't fall under gatekeeping in a snive way, we just want to pass on a sentiment we think someone will resonate with and hopefully have a better experience due to trying it. There's zero interest of devaluing others experiences, the interests are in igniting that same passion and enjoiment for the games I found trying trying them blind.
6:24 I never actually got to experience it but there’s a channel named extra credits that explains this perfectly, they explained it using darksouls 2 and defined the levels of cheese as how a player might pick their difficulty setting in any other game. The game is not hard not easy it is merely difficult and the way you address that difficulty could come down to your power or your ingenuity and both become valid if you can THINK of a way to beat the boss or area. It’s about the creativity you can come up with even if it’s simply standing in a window and launching arrows and an enemy that was places in the perfect spot.
That's the video that finally convinced me to buy SOTFS after completing DS1, and I followed that guide till the sunset staff except for the sniping part. Made that game much more tolerable with all its bullshit.
This
You recommended that we start the game as a Wretch; something I would NEVER do. Not because I would find it too difficult, but I like starting from a roleplaying perspective and Wretch doesn't interest me as a result. For example if I play a priest character, I eschew all bladed weapons. Paladin characters don't use bows or crossbows. That's how I do it.
I only ever took your suggestion as just that, a suggestion; and as far as I was concerned it was a very good idea and I hope a lot of people gave it a go. It simply wasn't for me, but that had no impact on my respect for you as my favourite Souls RUclipsr.
I don't see how anyone could possibly interpret anything you say as judgemental or an order, unless they were not listening.
There were a lot of people that commented on that wretch video "I'll do whatever I want"
@@ratatoskr6324 So then, you have to ask why a person clicks on a video making a suggestion for an interesting way to play with such an attitude going in. What are they hoping to get out of the video if their comment is “I’ll do whatever I want” 😂. Normally a thinking person only engages with the arguments of others out of interest, to broaden their perspectives and/or change their opinions.
@@ratatoskr6324 That's totally missing the point on their end for sure. Suggestions are good!
@@ratatoskr6324 that was also my reaction to the Wretch video. I'll do what I want... Which is following your suggestion because I had the same thought^^
I don't think I would have ever created my beautifull dual magic greatsword Int build otherwise
Your videos are great, keep up the work!
I'm a min maxer at heart I didn't agree with anything in the wretch video because its kind of shit for min maxing (confessor is the worst though). That being said i don't give two shits what people decided to do either.
"When you can't win in a fair fight, then don't fight fair." -Orphan of Kos
IS THERE NO HONOR AMONGST THE VIDEO GAMES
@@Ainalom "This too is hunter's work."
Thank you for the insight Kos, or some say Kosm
Yup.
Does that meat that if you can win, but it won't be easy, then you should fight fair? Because that's totally 100% of the Elden Ring.
I agree with Scott Jund a lot. His point is exactly how I feel. "Cheesing" is just creative strategy and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. The issue isn't "cheese", or creative strategic solutions, it's the negative attitude towards those things. Some people love to "play smarter not harder" and they get a lot of value and entertainment out of that. Other people love the mechanical challenge of doing things the "normal" way. Instead of yelling at each other about it we should appreciate that From has built a game that so seamlessly supports all these play styles.
I see nothing "creative" in using a small set of tools found by other people over and over due to dev oversights. If YOU found a cheese, you are creative. If you googled it up - you are not. And if one and the same strat can be used to cheese 2/3 of the bosses, this strat is actively disruptive towards the game flow and should be countered, preferably by modifying boss behaviour and issuing punish moves for its application.
@@Rastrelly The point is that it's not anyone's business to judge. It's only the dev's job to interfere if the strategy ruins the fun for those who use it (e.g., by being so easy to do and find out about it becomes the universally accepted strategy, but isn't engaging to do) or for others who have to suffer through it (PVP abuse, co-op that takes gameplay away from others without their consent or control). It doesn't matter as long as cheesing isn't so braindead obvious as to be the thing everyone just does, but regardless, there is a fundamental sense of entitlement in anyone thinking their opinion of how someone else chooses to spend their own time is important enough to be blasted all over the internet.
@@Rastrelly Just curious here, but what strategy other than the comet azur combo and that is not a clearly unintended glitch do you consider to be cheesing?
@@Rastrelly Someone's build clearly sucks.
@@GermanKinsmen And why do I need to hear about someone's build sucking? And how does someone's build sucking has anything to do with my comment?
13:47
Best I can tell, most people aren't willing to drop their previous experience and accumulated outlooks for a fresh discussion. Perhaps because asking someone to do so is equivalent to removing the buttresses of their position on the matter, which is easily construed as an attempt to place yourself at advantage for whatever argument. Or perhaps that's a stretch idk
In short I don't think they're arguing with you, or really even talking to to you. They're engaging with the discussion that's been going on for over a decade, on the terms that they've come to understand it
I've not seen someone explain it quite as well as you have just now, a lot of what people are describing as "cheesing" are terms made in really old fromsoft games like Dark Souls one or two back when accessibility to a higher amount of playstyles wasn't really possible, so essentially you would have to find cheese tactics to make yourself more powerful, where as in Elden ring the game literally gives you the option to be overpowered in PVE but not PVP, I think that's what's holding him up is not being able to recognize that this is a totally new game and it's not a Souls game, so the term cheesing needs to be updated to a new platform with new characteristics being defined for what cheesing or cheating is
That would make a lot of sense.
Well said.
@@roberthouse4817 cheesing is a pretty old term, though. Its usually pretty easy to understand what constitutes a cheese strat. Engaging in a strategy that stun locks a boss for the entire fight? Cheese. Attacking a boss from a spot he cant reach you? Cheese. Prepping an equipment set up or buff and attack combo that completely melts a boss in seconds? Cheese. Poisoning a boss and just evading its attacks until it runs out of hp? Cheese. Just using a strong or imbalanced weapon or recieving aid from a player or summon? Not cheese. There's nothing wrong with cheesing, but you gotta call a spade a spade.
You just described most argumentation in general. Most people aren't even talking to the person who thinks they're the one being spoken to, the speaker is talking to a projection of their interlocutor, and the quality of that projection will be entirely dependent upon the mood of the speaker.
"Play the game this way."
"I think you should play the game this way."
"I recommend you play the game this way."
"I had fun playing the game this way, consider trying it out."
Note the subtle difference. Judging from your last video, it seems where people draw the "gatekeeping" line differs.
If you want to avoid all hostilities you're going to have to walk on eggshells.
@@jubbin4849 First world problems ladies and gentlemen
@Jubbin Forgive me if I’m misconstruing your words, but I think the way you put that is a bit dismissive. Everyone’s going to have different opinions on how a statement someone makes affects them, and sometimes people have bad days that just exacerbate how those statements might make them feel. While I agree with your conclusion that it seems like it’s a matter of tying sense of self-worth to a video game, I don’t think it’s necessarily the fault of COVID, or that those people “need therapy” in the way you put it.
I would agree that those people would probably benefit from therapy, but I also think that pretty much everyone would benefit from therapy, in general. And who’s to say those people don’t already get therapy?
Again, I apologize if I misunderstood you or caused offense. I’m not trying to judge your character based on something you said on the internet.
@@janthehuman1679 bruh the way you said it seems like you really took the main comment's advice of "walking on eggshells to not offend anyone" real fast into practice lmao 😂😂.
Anyway, I do think its a bit too much if a few changes in grammer of a said sentence can make someone go from normal to extreme anger, resulting in writing a 3 page long comment or lashing out in some other way.
Like if a teenager or kid does it its understandable cuz of hormones and them being a kid but in case of someone older, I think its something worth worrying about.
@@saiko-no-kami No, I’m just like this; I tend to apologize in cases where I might not need to, because I figure it’s better that than to not apologize when I should have. But that’s just me; I don’t think that’s something everyone should do. 🤷♀️
And that attitude of it being “something worth worrying about” is what I take issue with. You don’t know why a person says what they choose to say; I don’t think making value judgements on who they are as a person based on what they say is really a healthy outlook to have. I believe it’s what leads to the most toxicity in the gaming community, and it’s my opinion that that’s a bad thing. You’re free to have your own opinion, but that’s what mine is.
@@jubbin4849 Those are all valid points. I appreciate the thoughtful response, and apologize if I came across as abrasive.
There are lots of people who look up cheese strats and "become OP in less than 1 hour" videos and secretly feel ashamed about it. They just don't want to be called out on that stuff because it makes them feel even worse. What you're doing with your well-intended advice is basically reminding them of that sense of shame, even though that's not your goal in the slightest.
Also, the "fear of missing out" is a huge cognitive bias. Playing blind is scary for some people just because they know they're going to miss a ton of stuff (items, bosses, questlines etc.) and the FOMO is stronger than the potential sense of enjoyment they'd receive from playing the game without any guides. That's why they decide to look stuff up. This is both a consequence of human psychology coupled with the mainstream design paradigm of mandatory player guidance. These players would rather follow a 100% walkthrough like the one Cowboy's making rather than carve their own paths simply because they want to be exposed to as much game content as possible on their first playthrough.
Yeah! It makes me feel like shit when I hear that I didn’t really beat this game that I put 150 hours into just because I used spirit summons. I never cheesed a boss, I just made it slightly easier! I still had to learn to play just like anyone else, a fight just took me maybe 25 tires instead of 40.
I also like to play the game blind, but around midway I start to look up where stuff is cuz im really bad at finding stuff. Like maybe some interesting weapons or incantations I could try out. I would have missed out on the entirety of the Haligtree Secret passage and the Consecrated Snowfield if i didn't look up where the other half of the medallion was. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do think it's a bit lame to look up shit like "BEST MAGE BUILD", or "HOW TO GET 300K RUNES IN 30 MINUTES!!"
Irony is they miss out on the experience of trying things blind, i dont think theres anything wrong with looking things up and cheesing and all i just wait till ive tried a few times or am stuck till i do it. You can never really play a game blind after youve played it through before, especially souls type games cause a lot of it isnt stat based, your knowledge wont reset. Try it blind and if it doesnt work out you didnt skip over that experience.
This is a really great comment
Its kind of interesting for me because, I have basically never thought to look up "guides" persay, but if an item tells me that it "increases your damage" I will go to a wiki and try and find out what the specific percent that it increases my damage by actually is. I also have killed Capra demon with firebombs every single DS1 playthrough since I learned about that strat lol
capra demon is the worst level of hell. no one will ever fault you for that
Idk Capra isn’t easy by any means but he’s definitely not that hard either the dogs are worse than the actual boss
I found out about that strat a bit late, but i guess its nice i experienced that hell at least once
Capra demons are scrubs? Literally only the arena makes him a semblance of a challenge
@@HouseTrapJay honestly wouldn’t be surprised who’s trying to fight in a closet with a 10 foot demon and his dogs
Hey man, I feel for you on people misconstruing what you’re saying like that. I see that you’re a newish youtuber and I’ve seen this happen with a few others like yourself. I just want to say that in these communities there are a lot of people that purposely or not, misunderstand a lot of these types of things and act like you’re telling people what to do. There’s people like this is almost every gaming community and it’s even worse on RUclips sometimes. Its just a loud portion of the community.
I’d recommend not letting the number of comments like that get to you! I’ve seen a few people get burnt out by RUclips by acknowledging and trying to argue with those people, to a point they just don’t enjoy making content anymore. Your videos are great and I think that you’re gonna be a very valuable addition to the souls community as long as your videos don’t also consist of being rightfully annoyed by it and repeating yourself over and over.
Can’t wait to see where this channel goes!! Good luck man
(Edit: I edited the comment to shorten it up and use better grammar but the comment wouldn’t update and I lost it so I’m not doing it again😂)
i actually kinda like him adressing the nonsense. its like what i do in my head but now i get to watch someone else do it with me :D i dont want him to get burn out on it tho
Hello again! Just commented on your last video, and I find it interesting that this guy agreed with your definition of cheesing.
As a Fighting Game player, we would call your definition of non-cheese play "Learning the Matchup." You can bang your head against the wall and not learn anything until you get lucky with your positioning and AI RPS with a big hunka sword, and that doesn't add any more legitimacy or value to a playthrough, even though the system mechanics were dealt with (albiet inadvertently) in this scenario.
What I think you're both trying to place value upon is Learning the Matchup, where you know you have to dive into Malenia twice and then dodge any direction and punish immediately vs her Waterfowl Dance. That's a match-up specific strat you need to know if you want to survive without getting lucky. That's engaging the mechanic in a meaningful way.
For me, cheese is more akin to getting your opponent stuck in a wall, a la Corrupted Monk, or getting the Fire Giant to follow you off the ledge, falling 2 ft and dying from full life. That's not engaging. But firing a beam when there is no AI option to counter or stop that beam? That sounds more like a battle system oversight to me than cheese. Even Tree Sentinel right when you get out of the gate has a good answer to magic spam - he's mobile and has a direct shield counter.
If they had put that kind of anti-delete button thought into all bosses of the game, we wouldn't need to be having this particular discussion. Is Comet Azure + FP flask cheap as shit? ABSOLUTELY. But is it cheese? I really don't know if that's true, as much as it is an eye-roller.
Completely agree here. The only part of the last video I disagreed with is the advice that people should engage with the mechanics on their first play through.
I think that encouragement is only going to frustrate people who are new or having trouble developing the skills to engage with all mechanics.
Sometimes its either find a way to cheese, or give up. Using myself as an example, my first playthrough was a lot of magic cheese. I would say I used magic more than I liked. But I just wanted to keep the game moving.
My 2nd playthrough, I'm soloing bosses with a mace. I'm ready to engage with mechanics now.
I think I agree with you. Its just a very difficult social construct that we are navigating. People who agree may still argue, simply because its difficult to articulate our position.
If you literally cannot progress due to challenge and or lack of preparation (unfocused build or just other random things like a flask that's still at level 1 and low quantity), and are about to give up, take a little time to figure out what you could do better, and try again or take a break.
HOWEVER, not everyone enjoys a ruthless challenge, like a friend of mine that has gone through 4 controllers already (cheap ones thankfully), and still hasn't beaten the game.
He justifies any means of 'cheese' by saying ut's the devs' fault for allowing it when some of the things are clearly unintended. Blaming devs for a few bugs in their first massive open world game is pure idiocy, but back to my point.
If you literally can't do it, do what you can to progress and continue having fun, don't let the game stop you from the experiences you paid for, even if they are 'dampened' by your style of play.
Not everyone comes in wanting this mega difficult infuriating game that feels constantly unfair, which it is not, but newer players may feel that way, unless they have a way to feel powerful, and make good progress even if they die a lot.
This game is beautiful in it's design, and ability to let players do whatever they want and have fun doing so.
I half agree with this, but I think the problem can be that finding the cheese for a particular problem you're stuck on can be a godsend and allows you to progress it can also lead you to start looking for the cheese for the next possible roadblock before you've even taken the time to find out if its realty a roadblock at all. Plus, you're likely never going to get better at a game type if you constantly try to circumnavigate playing it "as intended". Some people have more resolve when it comes to this sort of thing than others and mileage definitely varies but I think I'm with Ratatoskr here when it comes to suggesting that you do at least try before you go looking to the strategy/cheese help every time something seems like it might become a roadblock. What I would never say is that shouldn't ever do it though if what you're attempting will otherwise stop you playing the game - if you feel like you want to continue then finding a way that will help you do that is always better than quitting outright.
I think it's a bit of a sliding scale -- purposely attempt to engage with the mechanics of every fight, until some point where you would prefer not to [for that fight].
I attempted the Malenia fight as legitimately as possible for a couple hours until I decided to repeatedly stagger her with Blasphemous Blade L2s until she died, with no opportunity to fight back. I wasn't appropriately progressing in my understanding of how to deal with her so I cheesed the hell out of her, but the takeaway is that I at least tried to fight her another way before the stunlock; vs. someone immediately honing in on that strategy the first time they enter the fog gate.
@@carpetfluff35 To clarify, I wasn't suggesting that people give up.
I was saying that sometimes that feels like our only option. "I can't beat this boss at my current skill level, and I'm low on patience. If I can't find a way to cheese it, I'm gonna have to give up."
That's what I meant. I think we are in agreement.
This lines up with the last bit of my comment lol. I think we agree, it's just tricky to articulate. At least for me it is.
I really liked the additional part about speedrunning being done via cheesing, in the definition you used without a negative connotation, to the extreme. It makes perfect sense to me, and anyone who has watched any speedrun knows it also requires an incredible amount of skill.
It's unfortunate a lot of people seem to take your video and thoughts so personally. It seems more like a misunderstanding than anything. But then again, sometimes people go out of their way to misunderstand.
No they do understand his points. They are clear and put into words even a 5 year old would understand.
They just strawman his argument before even watching the video and spin every word to fit their idea of what his argument is.
It´s just simpler and emotionally safer to label him a gatekeeper then actually reflect on the argument given.
@@Spinexus That's very sad, honestly. To see people so insecure that any time their egos get hurt, they decide to turn a blind eye on it and blame others.
the problem with his definition of cheesing is that it includes blatant cheating, ai breaks, zips etc. Unintended game mechanics that are abused to gain an advantage, much like the deathblight bug. So in some peoples mind, cheesing = cheating, thus hes calling them cheaters by saying they are cheesing bosses even when not cheating.
@@LouSaydus Are you sure you watched the video? He clearly defines what he means by cheese in both videos, several times. People are retarded. They just define their own meaning of the term and then label that over his definition he gave. Essentially disregarding his argument and just defaulting to their own view.
The fault is on the individual watching and NOT listening. It´s not his fault for you being stupid beyond believe.
As a sorcerer, I’m told all the time how my wins aren’t legit. However, I feel I’ve had quite a unique experience compared to a lot of others, as I use close and long range spells when I fight bosses. I like to mix things up to see what the boss can do. Something that I’ve noticed is that the bosses (usually) have different mechanics depending on the range that you’re using. As in, you are more likely to see certain attacks from bosses, depending on if you’re a melee or a range build. I have noticed that some bosses are actually easier at close range (and some long range) depending on their tendencies and move sets. What I’ve come to find is this: Most people haven’t gotten to experience a lot of enemies the way that I have. What some people said was really easy, I thought was quite difficult. There were people who thought I was cheesing because I’m a sorcerer; and then end up watching me fight an enemy and saying “I didn’t know that boss did that. I’ve never seen that before.” I don’t think anything outside of exploitation and glitches is cheesing, personally. I don’t personally do this, but if someone comes in and they just spam spells at long range, or use comet asur as per cowboy’s example, if the boss isn’t able to move out of the way, or have some mechanic to work around not being destroyed by a single strategy, then that is just simply an efficient method of defeating that boss. Did they get to see that boss’s moveset? Not really; but I bet not many people have seen the full moveset of a lot of bosses and don’t even know it. Just like how a boss with mostly long range attacks and only a few ok’ish melee ranged attacks get melted by a katana (just as an example) easily. People will claim that boss is easy, yet I might think that boss was tough due to the range I was in. For example, there are some bosses where the infinite fp 10 second comet strat is completely trash, as the bosses just simply dodge out of the way. Yet there might be a spell that is slow and has good tracking, trivializing that particular boss. I’ve found all kinds of goofy ways to make a boss easy. I don’t do them; because I want to see all of what the boss has to offer. But just because you’re using a strategy that counters a boss’s particular moveset doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re cheesing them. Also, I’d like to see these people who are so called cheesing bosses use the same method on a much harder NG cycle. The same strat from the first ng might not work on the 5th. Regardless, the question comes down to, do you think cheesing is when you don’t engage with all of the boss’s mechanics? If so, then most people including yourself have cheesed a lot of bosses (I don’t agree with this). If not, then what percentage of a boss’s mechanics do you need to miss out on before you consider it cheesing? Anyways, slight disagreement here, but I appreciate your content and can’t wait to see your next video. I’m not here to critique, but only to offer a different point of view. :)
yeah, I think I mostly agree. How was your fight with -(Boss spoilers)
Gideon, 'the all-knowing'
This is most likely just something that's just stuck with people from the previous games, as sorcery broke the game in some of them and was widely considered like an easy mode. I doubt sorcery is as overpowered in Elden Ring, but I bet it probably makes the game overall easier compared to the standard sword/shield melee character.
Two things. First of all, it ultimately doesn't matter what you think the definition of cheesing is. What matters is what you mean when you say "cheesing". Because all definitions are arbitrary. So really, if someone says "this is cheesing" and someone else says "this isn't cheesing", then neither are right nor wrong, they just need to clarify what their definition is.
But also, you encountered a logical flaw in one definition of cheesing. Fair enough. But that wasn't Ratatosky's definition. Using magic, or ranged in general, didn't fit his definition of cheesing. Specifically using comet azul + infinite FP, however, did fit his definition, because doing that doesn't avoid engaging with some of the bosses mechanics, it avoids engaging with all of the bosses mechanics. Of course, it's not as perfectly formal as a definition in a math paper would be, but neither is yours, because what is an exploitation of a glitch also isn't defined exactly. Definitions we use for words tend to be like that, requiring some judgement calls of what exactly fits and what doesn't. But that's okay, as long as people can understand each other that's what matters.
So, I'm one of the people that left the "cheesing is using exploits/glitches" comments in the last video.
After thinking on it, I've softened on your side. My first playthrough, I dual-wielded Moonveil in my main-hand with the Meteoric Ore Blade in my off-hand. I was playing a Wretch that started out going in the Dex/Faith direction that I respecced into Dex/Int after not feeling satisfied with the things I had found throughout the game. I had looked up nothing online, I had just noticed that there were two Int katanas in my inventory that I thought looked cool as a Devil May Cry fan. The last half of the game after swapping to this build was so piss easy that I thought Fromsoft dropped the ball on the last half of the game again.
Then, I saw all of the Moonveil discourse online and did a second playthrough where I used the Misericorde + Buckler exclusively with no summoning, forced to learn the mechanics of the game without relying on the Moonveil's massive damage. I do think there are advantages to not using overpowered gear, and I agree with you that learning the mechanics is much more fun than blowing away a boss instantly.
Oh no, is the Moonveil OP? I wanted *a* dex weapon in the early game, and found that on some list, so went and got it. I don't feel overpowered, really, but I'm worried the rest of the game (just got to raya lucaria) will be too easy. This is my first souls game and I'm trying to refrain from looking stuff up, but when I feel like i'm missing something or that I could be playing the way I want (dex/int), it's hard not to. Might have to ditch the moonveil (also carrying meteorite staff).
@@Miabalzitch it did get nerfed a little bit recently, but is still incredibly strong. If it starts to feel to strong you can always have a second weapon you keep upgraded that you can swap to. That'll maintain the challenge you want.
@@Miabalzitch It's mostly the Ash of War that makes it strong. It does more stagger damage than a greatsword (Used to be more than a Colossal Sword, but its stagger got nerfed in Patch 1.03), and does massive amounts of damage for the FP cost. Even more so if you equip the talisman that reduces the FP cost of weapon skills.
Another thing to consider is that I think people are much more likely to feel you "cheated yourself" if you didn't organically stumble upon a powerful weapon or build, but actively looked for the most cheesy broken OP strategies online. A massive, massive part of the challenge of these games is having limited knowledge. There's ALWAYS super-powerful items and builds in the world but on a blind playthrough you aren't often going to find these until later in the game, and even then you might not appreciate how powerful they are for yourself.
I'm never gonna say someone cheesed their playthrough because they discovered a powerful build and used it, because how are you supposed to know without anything to compare it to?
I know this isnt 100% percent of the problem but im sure its part of it, its about egos/pride. You even mention it in the video, the word “cheese” itself has a connotation that implies people aren’t playing the game correctly and are therefore less skilled or their experience is less valuable and it makes them feel like they cant take any pride or satisfaction about overcoming a challenge. People tend to see that as a personal attack (even though like many others i know you didnt mean it that way) and they end up getting defensive/emotional about it. Its not unique to souls games at all trust me, its a pretty universal response. Very well articulated videos im with you 100% 👍🏽
Even a monkey can hit free fp physik and hold Comet Azure until the target is dead if you teach it.
I find it funny there are people out there taking pride in their ability to execute this sequence, and even more funny that people get offended by being told how basic the skills they are so proud of are.
I think people are, of course, entitled to play the game the way they want. They are not entitled to receive praise from others for playing that way.
Cheesing is a valid way to beat the game and is really fun, I do it too. But if you're ego is hurt by someone saying you cheesed something by spamming comet azur for 10 seconds and cheese has a negative connotation that it's an unskilled way to play...I'm sorry but it kinda is? Like that's just the truth of it. Even a child can spam one button and win, obviously you're NOT as skilled as other people who play the mechanics as intended. But why does that matter? You bought a video game with your own money, games are supposed to be fun, do whatever you want. cheesing isn't a terrible thing, it's a lot of fun and it is a valid way to win and beat the boss. And like, why DOES it matter that you're not that good at a video game anyways lol, it's a freaking video game it's not that big of a deal.
@@knusperkeks2748 So have you cleared the game SL1 wretch naked? If not then you are a scrub and should git gud.
You're the gatekeeper people in soulsbourn community that absolutely hate, thank you for demonstrating that for us.
it's really baffling to me how people will base so much of their own worth on beating these games, to the extent they can't admit cheesing any encounters. I've played the other fromsoft games and when I played elden ring I still cheesed some of the bosses. And like, it really doesn't matter. If I didn't bother to learn a boss fully and used an op weapon to bring them down quickly why would I lie to myself that I beat it skillfully?
Very well put.
these two videos did come off a little condescending to me but overall i love the points you made and I love the way you methodically approach arguments. Looking forward to future content!
You aren't gatekeeping. You are just giving suggestions and these people are misinterpreting your suggestion as an order. On another note I half agree half disagree with the blind playthrough. I also like to go in without knowing anything but if I get stuck I will look at something online. For example when I was trying to access Raya Lucaria I couldn't find the key at all and I was searching for ages until I looked at a guide. My advice to players is to play blind, until you come to what seems like an impasse.
Yeah. I thought the very end of his last video made it pretty clear that it was a suggestion.
I agree
I had the exact same experience. It was so obvious in hindsight how to find the key but this game is so large that I could have spent hours back tracking. That would not have been fun to me.
I like blind playthrough’s in souls games too but I usually end up having to look up key locations because I get lost a lot, even more so with elden ring
I too had to look at a guide for the key to Raya Lucaria and I felt incredibly and impossible stupid as I passed through that area some 20 times and never once explored those three stupid crystal pillars and had 90% of Raya Lucaria explored.
My playthrough remains almost 100% blind.
I feel I've got a mildly hot take about cheese: If you found the OP thing organically and just use it, it's not cheese. If you knew about it before hand and bee-lined to it to exploit it, it is. However, that may be a personal opinion, and is simply how I refuse to play. I don't mind having minor details spoiled about this game, but I'll straight up quit a stream when they go somewhere I haven't, so I can figure it out myself.
I don't look up games because they're there to be discovered, but I don't feel invalidated for having a different play style. I've had things spoiled that I went back and explored, mostly because I watched a streamer go into an area I'd apparently missed most of the content of. I also tend to *not* watch people play where I haven't been because to me exploration is the point in ER, and strategy is the point in Souls games in general (I'm not far in DS, though).
I actually appreciate your insights and opinions how you, as a veteran of the series, play because it makes me think about how I play the game, and even helps me figure it out more. Recommendations aren't gatekeeping, and your videos are "I play this way for these reasons, give it a shot and you may like it" rather than "Only play this way."
I hate to get into the idea of “earning a victory”, but I couldn’t agree more here that if you found something on your own, you deserve your win. I would say it’s still cheesing because it’s still breaking the game, but if you found it organically, you earned your victory just as much as anyone else. Outsmarting a game’s mechanics on your own is an achievement worth the amount of the game you can successfully bypass.
In Horizon Zero dawn I managed to constantly outsmart or exploit the living heck out of the AI on my first play through cause I learned what it can and can’t adapt to. I felt like I earned my wins because I managed to break the game myself organically. I tested things, I had to learn what worked and adjust it to different scenarios.
I think if anyone can outsmart a game themselves, they’ve earned any amount of success they get from it.
by his definition, going through the game organically, missing a dungeon then coming back and one shotting the boss is cheesing. Why because that literally happened to me.
I'm playing the game and my friend casually mentions Patches in Limgrave. I'm around Atlus Plateau at this point and I go "wait patches is in the game?" I had not looked it up. I went back to Limgrave wandered around till I found the dungeon, got to patches and one shot him with Glintstone Cometshard.
Now by the definition he Ratatoskr provided, "Not engaging with the mechanics of the encounter," (Paraphrased) is that cheesing a fight.
@@vasylpark2149 I guess to hone in on this case: If I stumbled into patches and ganked him, I wouldn't call it cheese. If I missed him, heard he was there and went back specifically to gank him, I'd count it as cheese. Others may think that maybe the first is cheese and the second is cheesier, which is also an idea I can agree with, but I feel player intent should factor in.
This is also beyond ratatoskr's point, and I don't think it's at odds with anything he said, as it's more an inidividualized experience thing.
I’m thinking of that boss in ds3 where you are supposed to pick up his sword and use it against him. Fight is super hard but if you wander around you find something that makes the fight easy.
Finding the thing is the fight. If someone tells you ahead of time about it then it’s much more boring. You missed the point of the fight.
But how do we know what “the point of the fight” is supposed to be?
Who am I to say that finding the one spot where the boss can’t hit me isn’t like finding the sword that kills the boss? I don’t think we can know the answer to that so I like drawing the line at did you find it yourself
@@vasylpark2149 out numbering things is cheesing yes.
Level upgrade based games just work that way, unfortunately. If you want a meaningful experience fight it when youre suppose too.
Elden Ring is the first game in the series that my brother, my cousin, and myself can all play together and experience with fresh eyes in tandem.
My younger brother and I have been experimenting with more crazy builds right out the gate, meaning we quickly had a lot of quote unquote "cheesy" tactics up our sleeves, but it never felt unbalanced or broken, because so much of the game was already so punishing, and most of our abilities and gear was things we had to kill powerful foes to get, like dragon hearts for our breath attacks, or armor and weapons from unique foes. It wasn't until we got to the mimic tear boss fight that we realized we should maybe not always default to the most overpowered, victory assuring tactics, like scarlet rot breath+keep away, or bleed spam with reduvia/rivers of blood, or even nasty spirit ashes like an upgraded Lhutel the Headless (my favorite summon besides Mimic Tear) because we just might ruin _certain_ experiences.
With the mimic tear boss fight, my brother and I both had a similar problem. We entered the mist, buffed up, summoned spirits, and went full NATO before we even knew what the boss was. Mine was dead only moments after I realized what was up against, mostly from Lhutel and Rotten Breath, and I was immediately kicking myself for not just waiting a minute and assessing the situation. _I could have had a kickass mirror match with my doppelganger and found out what fighting myself in pvp would be like, but instead I summoned a bro and had him kick the shit out of the clone in the corner while I gassed him with the equivalent of a can of Raid the size of a house, and he died seconds after transforming without ever having used any of my attacks or spells._
So, when we next all met up, my brother and I took our cousin to the mimic tear and essentially held a tournament. We informed him it would be a fair fight, to let the mimic take shape before attacking, and that we would not interfere.
This turned out to be a good fun 40 minutes as the triple strength mimic boss proceeded to pull out some crazy tactics. We all had a go, and Cuzzy said he was glad we didn't just erase the boss without having a good old scrap with it first.
I've also just found out about the Stray Mimic Tear boss in the secret catacombs below the path to the Haligtree, so I can't wait to recreate those spiderman pointing memes.
Definetly go into the Stray Mimic arena with only a bow and no arrows for a nice laugh.
i did the exact same thing.. halfway into the fight i realized i was fighting myself and had prepped with a player summon for absolutely no reason..
The mimic didnt cast a single spell before half hp because of my bleed and frostclaws, so there was no reason to have a summon with me..
But thats the expectation fromsoft set me up to have, so... what can i say?
My build probably isnt for an ai to controll either, because i use spells in melee to mid range and low range weapons so it is kinda funky..
All the mimic did was cast a frostnova and roll around a little.. I really dislike that i summoned for that fight.. only had a single go at it too..
But that made me check the bosses first before summoning again. Shame i only learned that lesson 85% into the game..
I had fun bullying the mimic tears with the good ol' naked fistfight shtick, but that's because seeing my own character in only underwear (or the deathbed nightie) trying to haplessly punch things... is so amusing to me it's basically how I "played" invasion PVP for Varre: Calling out with a loud emote and comedically fistfighting people who were armed to the teeth. If I'd been far enough into the game I would have applied the almighty T-pose.
Mimic made up by actually making bullying Malenia look awesome. Was it cheesy? Probably, yeah. But did it look cool as anything to have dual Adula's Moonblades in perfect sync to burst her first phase? Hell yes.
Next run I do though, I'm probably going to see if the enemy mimic copies my level 500+ stats and accepts the ultimate showdown... of ridiculous bubble trumpets in heavy armor and the marshmallow turban. I threw away a million runes to get those horns, and by the stars I will get my money's worth finding out who's really the best at the rooty tooty point and dooty.
@@FelisImpurrator remember to equip meat and perfumes, the mimic will spend 70% of the fight eating and applying it xD
What's worse than a gatekeeper, are people who take advice misinterpreted as they are being forced to gunpoint and being shamed, sad state of affairs these two sides of the same coin are (the extremes and their toxicness).
What type of coin are we
@@snowpotatoporkchop2299 I can't judge for you, but I'm the middle ground/moderation, I'm not picking a side, I'll give my advice on the matter, whether you take it is up to you, if it is cheesing, I'll call it out as so; it doesn't diminish your experience, but you are more than willing to add spice to your experience, and I'll continue to play as such. *Ultimately, just give the information, what they do with it is up to them, and I'm not in any place to decide for them.*
@Lee I just ate 2 burgers, now I'm drinking some water wbu
@Lee Me pointing them out, the extremes in this case and not throw insult is nowhere near toxic.
@@lividstruggler2364 Nowhere near.
You convinced me to play as a Wretch and it's been an incredible experience. I've looked things up only when I got sick of trying to figure something out for myself, but otherwise it's been pretty blind and an exhilarating experience. My character definitely feels like a hodgepodge of all the random things I've found through my playthrough. I was using spirit summons, too, since I'm running a melee build and had a bit of challenge with Margit. But I kept beating bosses way too quickly, usually the first try, so I recently decided to stop using spirit summons for at least the first few attempts, too. I definitely feel more engaged with the bosses not using a summon, and I'm still beating them mostly on the first try! It's definitely tougher, but it's a much more rewarding experience. No shame to anyone who does it differently, I'm just glad I gave it a shot!
That pretty much proves his point lol. You had a valuable experience and had you decided that you would rather look stuff up and cheese because that's more fun to you than that would have been fine too
I'm actually mad at myself that I didn't play wretch on my first playthrough but I will still do it on my second
I think one important point that you missed is how difficult these games can be to get into blind. There are plenty of guides out-there (Some of which made by yourself) that are extremely useful to new players without making them SUPER OP or taking away discovery. For example going over some of the quality of life changes or advising people that Vigor is really important.
Great video btw.
One examine for me was there was an invasion NPC who was very strong against slashing weapons. I looked that up, and then just switched weapons and was finally able to beat it. It was still really tough, and still took a lot of hits, just used a normal sword nothing OP.
For me that didn’t take anything away from the fun or discovery of the game, it made it more fun actually.
There's probably a useful distinction to be made between 'playing blind' and 'playing blind, knowing how the genre works'.
Like, there's a difference between not knowing where to find a particular weapon and not knowing that dodging makes you immune to damage.
It's hard for me to imagine how someone could reasonably interpret your recommendation for a way to play the game that you find enjoyable (in no way a mandate or necessity) as somehow elitist. That's like if someone tells you they are going to cook a meal, and you have experience cooking said meal. You might recommend a certain spice, or a style that you have found greater enjoyment out of over the several occasions you've made the meal. You're not demanding it, you're not telling them any other preparation is inferior; it's just a recommendation informed by your own experiences. It would be ludicrous for the person to respond by calling you an elitist.
They’re bad faith, defensive and insecure and aren’t interested in mildly critical discussion.
Cooking is an excellent example, it seems the logic of alot of the people goes a little something like this:
- Guy: "Hey man I thought of making a strawberry cake this weekend!"
- Ratatoskr: "Oh is that so? May I recommend this new cream, it's tasty but not too sweet and it really goes well with strawberries"
- Guy: "Wtf why are you trying to stop me from baking the cake?!"
Gatekeeping has become such a buzzword... People use it all the time even though usually the situation in question has nothing to do with it
@@yiangaruga4928 hahaha that’s the exact metaphor that I came up with
Hey you should season that chicken
“I BOUGHT THE CHICKEN I’LL EAT IT HOW I WANT”
@@SandyCheeks1896 Hey, you probably should not eat that chicken medium rare, I recommend not doing that since you might get sick.
I WILL EAT IT HOW I DAMN WANT TO!
The biggest issue with his point was that he was *directly* telling people that their experience held less value.
The problem wasn't him giving advice, it was him saying "your experience is less valuable, it's worse than my experience."
I will pull his words from the last video, direct quote. "I think, that engaging with a bosses mechanics and fighting him normally on your first playthrough is a more valuable experience than looking a boss up on youtube and cheesing him your first time through, both methods are legitimate, but one is more valuable."
Do you see the problem? This is not him *suggesting* it's better, or *might* be more enjoyable. He is saying *it objectively is* better. That *your* experience is worse.
people seem to have a misunderstanding of what gatekeeping is. "Gatekeeping is the act of attempting to control, and or limit general *ACCESS* to something." saying to someone they should try engaging in the fights mechanics before resorting to using techniques and items to circumvent the fight is not even close to what gatekeeping is.
I would put forth that a good gatekeeper does none of those things, and is there to tell newcomers that while the doors are unlocked, that doesn't mean you can just rush in unprepared. A good gatekeeper is good enough at their job you'll usually miss it, while a bad one will just be a dick to be a dick.
@S. P. I always tell people that if they find a way to win, it's fine. Just be patient, do your research, mostly just to know how stuff works. If you get stuck on a boss, look it up if you feel like, to figure out what it's weak to and plan around that. Ideally you should look up as little as possible, but whatever brings you into the game world is the absolute best way to play.
Good cheese is funny or clever, sometimes both. Bad cheese can ruin everything in moments.
I wouldn't say you have to go in completely blind, in fact, I encourage people to find any way to engage. A let's play is a better resource for enjoyment of the intended experience, whereas a speedrun should only be consulted in the most dire of circumstances unless you've already beaten the game at least once.
Looking up a strategy to help defeat a boss? Fine, not cheese. Exploiting a boss' AI so it doesn't aggro? Fairly cheesy. Using the cracked tears in your physick to destroy invaders/Hosts? Hilariously cheesy.
Really the most important thing is that you're having fun, so have at it however you choose!
Exactly, it's more of a suggestion really. No harm in telling people to *try* this or that tbh.
Agreed.
This conversation has made me back away from many game related discussions. The problem is the jargon. With many people, I see once they begin to use the jargon, it soon becomes thier personal task to redefine said jargon...its almost as if the jargon becomes more important than actually taking part in what they're intended for..
You would be astonished and likely disappointed by how many of these kind of arguments tend to boil down to semantic jerrymandering.
@@PowerfulSkeleton its insane. Its in every aspect of life. Music, cars,art, ect.
People don't usually talk via this channel. They just want to expose their point of view and get likes that validate them in some sort of weird social scale. Honestly, I don't even understand why he felt he needed to make another video to clarify anything. If people feel their own view of things threatened by someone else's then they have other things to sort out before even considering participating in public conversations like these.
@@lucascarracedo7421?
@@imbeingspiedon5588 basically, I support what you wrote. And then went on to mention why the fact he made a video to clarify what he meant by his previous video a bit ridiculous. People who get angry regarding a person on RUclips giving their point of view on a certain topic have a lot of things to sort out.
It is about jargon. But not just that. People feel threatened when the views exposed don't match their own. As if someone having a different idea than their own somehow was an attack against them. Which is absurd by all accounts.
BTW, what kind of reply is "?"?
I've always enjoyed using and abusing all mechanics a Videogame has to offer and did the same in Eldenring, my first souls like.
And I can see where the people complaining about your last video are coming from. In my opinion it stems from two main problems, first beeing the definition of cheesing, as you explained.
And the second reason beeing that at times, atleast from my own experience playing the game, killing a big boss with e.g. comet azure can feel a little unrewarding.
It can feel like beeing a child and stealing some sweets from the fridge. You feel a little bit bad for doing it, and when adressed about it (e.g. somebody calling your playstyle "cheesing"), you illogically feel attacked, exposed and sometimes get in a defensive state and talk back / write mean comments.
What I am trying to say, is that as much as I appreciate your honesty, patience and intent to understand each and every comment, you shoudn't *always* listen to what people say, especially as your channel starts growing, more and more people will feel illogically attacked by minor things.
I made a throwaway joke on a random Elden Ring video on my feed. Fast forward a couple of weeks, the video has blown up and the joke has 12k likes, then someone pops in and boos me for being unoriginal! 😛
Popularity changes how people approach and engage with anything. Even statistically, a one in a million level of Dung Eater viewer is bound to show up on a video with millions of views.
I came here to say this exactly. I guarantee you that a lot of the people who have strong opinions about the semantics of made up words and intended play styles are people who are on the fringes of "by design." This game doesn't have a difficulty slider, but in some circles the "easy" is built into the styles of play that require minimal reflexes/reaction time. I have to assume the people upset do not want to be associated with that even if indirectly. That would be my best guess/observation.
AGREE WITH EVERYTHING YOU SAID EXCEPT YOUR SPELLING OF THE WORD BEING.
If killing a boss before it can attack you 20 times is cheesing it, then so is dodging Malenia so she doesn't get to heal when she swings at you, or staggering it so it can't finish an attack animation. Avoiding the mechanics of the boss is the _entire point_ of fighting the boss. If you weren't avoiding the mechanics one way or another, you'd be dead! So arbitrarily deciding that the boss' max hp, or the stamina cost of blocking it, or it's ability to dodge projectiles aren't mechanics, and the only mechanic that matters is where and when it's hurtbox is so you can roll through it, is incredibly silly.
You might make the argument that comet azure is too powerful, but I'd probably make that argument about plenty of other things first. Something that requires a huge stat investment to even cast, never mind all it's other drawbacks, is not overpowered. Roll spamming and bleeding out an enemy when you're still level 1 is overpowered.
@@smithsmith6402 Dodging and staggering are intended mechanics. Souls games are designed with a melee character in mind. Range is an afterthought. We know this because many enemies don't know how to deal with range.
Just because devs throw in OP tools in order to make you feel strong mid to late game doesn't mean that all enemies/bosses have AI designed to deal with them. Accounting for so many variables for so many enemies is not feasible, that's why cheesing is possible with tools the devs give you.
Ratatoskr being at awe and unable to comprehend was such a funny moment to me. It kinda felt like that meme with Patrick getting anything but a jar.
In all honesty, saying that advice is elitist is not really anything someone can fight back on, because the people that usually say these things, are very hard to convince otherwise and they will always think of a certain someone as elitist once they've set their mind to it. (which is funny because that's exactly what an elitist does) I personally can't quite say what makes people say this, but what I can say is that the people saying these things, are very pig-headed.
Moral elitism
Ha! that part was funny, but I've found that when people say stuff like that, half the time it's because they are thinking about it in their own head that they might not notice the finer details of the statements made.
@@barkerbarks2537 What an eloquent way to share my own thoughts on the matter. Have a cookie, my friend. It's on me.
I think the tl;dr is that there are insecure people on both sides of the argument.
There are anti-cheesers who shame people for no other reason that to feel good about themselves.
There are pro-cheesers who are in denial for taking the easy route.
It depends on what type of person you are. Some people have the time and patience. Some people don't.
If you are shaming people to feel good about yourself or you're in denial and being toxic about it, then you are garbage.
I think its more because the people who look up the most powerful strategies say the game is easy. And sure, its ez if you play that way, but what were saying is that they didnt allow themselves to experience the difficulty. Its not insecure, its just pointing out that these games have an easy mode, you just have to access it through the internet, or find it yourself
Yep some souls veterans are butthurt that casuals are beating the game easily and looking at them like they're crazy when they say they fought the boss 100 times.
Some casuals are butthurt because people are saying they cheesing the game for using summons and op builds that they look up online.
Both sides are not wrong, they're just different type of player. Just don't fight with each other, respect other people's gameplay and move on.
A great community about this issue is Monster Hunter community, they don't alienate you for using OP builds and summons friends, they encourage you, if you want to use weak builds then you will get praises for doing a challenging run.
@@KayOScode ah another butthurt can't accept that their game is easy because their personality is "good at game". Dude Elden Ring is not that hard, you're doing self imposed challenge to make it hard and there's nothing wrong with that but don't lie to yourself and said the game is hard.
Just like I play pokemon nuzlocke because the game is easy but I don't attack people who said the game is easy because it is easy.
@@neku2741 The MH community had its fair share of toxicity too but nvr to Elden Rings & IG the SoulsBourne Community extent
I now have one criteria to determine if I consider my own win valid and worthwhile:
Is my heart pounding after the battle?
If true, then I am good with it.
True, It just comes down to the personal experience, and trying to share it with others so that they can enjoy It aswell
Can't agree more
This is so based
This guy gets it
Hey, I’m new to these types of games, so can anybody explain if this feeling comes in later in the game? Or how do I even achieve it?
A lot of the sort of arguments in the community sound a lot like "It's okay if you want to play on Diaper-baby easy mode. don't let me stop you from being a casual." in regards to sorcery or summon ashes. This doesn't feel like that though. I get a sense that you really understand the different preference things, and put great care to not sound condescending in it.
That was my issue with the first video. I interpreted your main issue with the tweet and underlying sentiment to be the classification of something as Cheesing. It seemed like you were saying that someone is wrong for not being honest about it being cheesing, negative connotation and all. This puts it in a different light as now you've thrown out your thoughts of Cheesing being a legit, and for some, more fun strategy. This is honestly a really good example of forming argumentations, and getting your points across.
Yea, the issue with not being very explicit with your arguments about ''hot button issues'' is that your comments are not made in a vacuum. You leave room on the table for interpretation, people will assume the worst because there is enough prior discourse to do so. This amendment is a lot better.
"Nothing goes over my head! My reflexes are too fast, I would catch it."
Respectfully, I think by nature of who these videos are going to reach, you're fighting a losing battle. I imagine the majority of people who came across your last video, are likely people who have looked things up, myself included. As a result, a good amount of those people are going to strongly disagree with you just because you hold, at least initially (play blind, then look things up if that's not for you), a different opinion than they do. I did look up a good bit myself, I felt incredibly overwhelmed by how much there was to do and honestly got so lost trying to find some sense of direction. I have fully enjoyed the game, however, and I very much look forward to the next Souls game and will 100% try to go into it blind now that I have a somewhat okay grasp of the basics of the genre (or so I assume). This was my first experience with the genre, and it's been an absolute blast to play through the game. From demolishing Godfrey in my first few attempts, to cheesing the fuck out of the Draconic Tree Sentinel outside of the capital entrance because fuck him, this game is easily in my GOTY contenders. I can only imagine the excitement of having a fully spoiler free run of the game.
Agreed, it seems like people who misconstrued his last video may just not be very charitable to his point. Also, glad to hear you enjoyed the game, and honestly if you want to experience one of them completely blind you don't need to even wait for a new one. All the previous FromSoft games are very similar and are just as wondrous and mysterious to explore blind as Elden Ring, just on a different scale.
I come from the time of buying strategy guides such for the Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time. I understand there is a joy of going in blind. I believe it is the type of game that decides if you wish to look ups things like RPGS
Draconic tree sentinel really sucked.
@@melr.5492 honestly I’m someone who enjoys going through the game blind and making it more difficult for myself (currently on a no level up run of Elden ring) and for some reason I even found myself disagreeing with him I just think it was the wording choice that really misconstrued what position he held on the matter he actually meant like watching this video made me 180 on his Position
@@brotheraugustine I thought he was fun, what part of his moveset sucked?
People calling you Elitist while simultaneously suggesting that they (someone who is not elitist) have a morally superior/better take than you simply by virtue of their opinion being "non-elitist" is the most ironic form of Elitism I've seen to date. And yes, you have my permission to use that logic to severely frustrate every virtue signaler who still wants to troll you as an elitist simply for having an opinion you believe is justified. Great vid 🤙
I hate when they try to make you out to be a bad guy. "You don't want easy mode? You must be against installing ramps for people in wheelchairs." Ironic how they think they are the most understanding people, but won't hear us out.
People, in the wrong headspace, thinks that suggesting other players, as rude and/or mean at best, and as morally wrong at worst. The simple fact that you had anything to say about their way of doing things is already over the line. I believe this is what tip them off.
It comes down to this:
The game has core mechanics that you are *intended* to use and experience to play the game. Anything that subverts those core mechanics is what "cheesing" is.
The thing about any *good* set of core mechanics is that it will ALWAYS alienate the types of people that are not interested in said core mechanics.
Sometimes people will just *not* enjoy the game you want to make, and as such will "cheese" their way through it out of some sense of, maybe completionism, maybe pride, maybe FOMO, etc.
So as a developer, or any person really, you *must* ask yourself: If someone doesn't like the game you *intend* to make, do you even want them playing your game?
DOOM Eternal takes the stance of "No, if you do not want to play the game in the way it is designed, just don't play the game." And it is a stance that I have fallen in love with.
For someone who finds the mechanics in these games, *especially* in Elden Ring, extremely fun and engaging, I am saddened whenever I see people cheesing, because when I see that, I see someone who is not ever going to fall in love with the game so long as they continue cheesing. And they have been given no reason not to cheese, such that the cheese still exists. I see a person who is one of two things: They are too scared to try and have fun and have been given a method to allow their fears to continue, or they are playing a game whose core design they do not find fun and are just trying to "get it over with" as soon as they can. And I find either of these things dissatisfying, personally.
To return to the original question: Do you want people who don't like your game to play your game? I would answer no. Do you want people who *do* like your game to play your game in the way that they like it for? I would answer yes.
If given the option, players will always optimize the fun *out* of the experience. It's an unfortunate side-effect of the human condition. It's up to the developer to make the decision for the player about what kind of fun the game can provide. It's up to the developer to make the optimal route the fun route.
So, tell me: I find a really strong weapon in a dungeon. Am I not expected to use that weapon? Is that not the intention of the reward?
@@GermanKinsmen Depends on what you mean by "really strong weapon". If the mechanic of that weapon essentially turn off all the other mechanics in the game, that is the developers fault. Remember, it is the DEV's responsibility to make the optimal route the fun route. That being said, you could willingly ignore the OP nonsense and continue engaging with the core game mechanics.
And, just in case anyone wasn't aware... Fromsoft doesn't really playtest their own games. A lot of newcomers don't realize it, but we're currently in the playtesting phase right now.
Game devs aren't gods. They can, and often do, make mistakes.
@@CorwinTheOneAndOnly "Continue engaging with the core game mechanics" loot and stats ARE core game mechanics, it's an RPG.
@@GermanKinsmen It's an *action* RPG. The core game mechanics in this game are: R1s for DPS, R2 for poise damage, jumping attacks for specific dodges as well as increased self poise and increased poise damage on jumping attacks, using poise damage to stagger heavy enemies, using effective defenses against incoming damage types, using weaponskills for nukes or utility, the basic movement and dodges, physick to cement a build together, shields for a safety net as well as parrying or other weaponskill storage, guard counters for quick poise damage, crouching and other items for stealth, ranged attacks for certain enemy types or as finishers, flask balancing, weapon buff material collecting, etc.
If you ignore some of the obviously-unintentionally-OP stuff, you can and *should* engage with *most* of these mechanics on a regular basis. However, if you just moonveil L2 R2, you can ignore all but one of these mechanics, because moonveil L2 R2 was heavily OP, which is why Fromsoft *nerfed it in a patch.*
If your goal when playing a game is to beat the game, then you don't find the game fun, you just want to say you've beaten the game. If your goal when playing the game is to *play the goddamn game,* then you find the game fun.
If you haven't yet, I recommend you play Doom Eternal. Just the base game is fine. Play on Ultra-Violence, which is normal mode. Nightmare is the hard mode.
@@CorwinTheOneAndOnly I'd play Doom Eternal, but you'd probably call using the super shotgun "not engaging with the core mechanics".
"blind playthrough" was not what I had taken away at all from the closing statement of the previous video. I actually pretty much agree with encouraging people to play blind and dont consider it gatekeeping at all; its only gatekeeping if you then scoff at someone because they didnt play blind.
What I had taken away from the closing statement of the previous video was "I dont use techniques that allow me to bypass boss mechanics, and I'd encourage you not to as well". Which is also something I'd tend to agree with on a surface level, but think that it gets kind of complex and grey when looking at the vast arsenal of tools Elden Ring gives you; infinite fp comet azure might be a bit much, but if you know you are walking into a 2v1 bosses favor then I dont think using an ash summon to make it 2v2 is in any way avoiding boss mechanics but rather playing to them tactically. Combine that with how everyones definition of cheese tends to vary (seriously if you followed a strict "no cheese" rule and everyones definitions were used to make a list of cheese that must be avoided, you'd only ever be able to rune level 1 naked bare fists only), and thats why I agree with the totality of Fighting Cowboy's tweets; it doesnt matter what you use.
Exactly
It's not about the points, it's about how you present those points, i found myself disgreeing witha. Thing or two in the previous video, but in this one while i would give a different weight to each point, at the end of it i fully agree.
Academics are tricky, especially when dealing with people who jump the gun(youtube and twitter commenters when dealing with anything even remotely resembling a debate)
Very first statement "it does matter to me if you cheesed a boss a victory is a victory " he never discouraged anyone from cheesing just elaborated on how he get enjoyment out of the game and made sure to reiterate that you might get more enjoyment whatever way you choose to play the game obviously I'm not you so I can't definitively tell you why the way he presented the video rubbed you the wrong way but if I were to make my assumption I would say you went into the video with a predisposed idea and biased and when it didn't 100% align with what you agree with even though you in a more broad sense agree with him in general you mistook that as discouragement of certain mechanics
"Doesn't" lmao not "does" in the quote
@@yomoje152 yes he didn't discouraged them, he also validate them but he said they are not as "valuable". Value is subjective and the fact that he said that shows his elitism, he basically said the way he beat bosses is more valuable than you filthy casuals.
The thing that frustrates me is people say cheesing is bypassing mechanics, but summons, sorcery, stuff like Margit's shackle, etc ARE mechanics. It's not cheesing to summon on Radahn. It's not cheesing to summon Oleg. It's not cheesing to use the shackle. None of these things are refusing to engage with or avoiding needing to engage with mechanics. Not doing these things IS avoiding engaging with the mechanics of a challenge. Yet everyone seems to call summoning or the shackle cheese, but don't consider using pure melee physical damage and refusing to engage with consumables, magic, etc as bypassing mechanics.
I think he means that it would be using mechanics to *bypass* the boss' mechanics, instead of using the former to engage with the latter.
They are what I call the semi-cheese. You get to ignore the mechanics, but not the entirety. It's basically a free 1st Phase for a boss using summons and shackle.
@@cornlourd
What "you" call. Not what they really are. You just proved his point.
@@Thecrocodiemanmask that's exactly what I did. I want to frustrate him more. Thank you for stating the obvious.
The way that you articulate the points that you wish to make are clear, concise, and in no way shape or form derogatory or demeaning to anyone, and for that I say thank you sir and Bravo!
Totally agree with you on blind playthroughs, it's definitely waaaay more enjoyable, and that's not gatekeeping at all, it's ludicrous some people are even suggesting that, it's just an advice "Try this and you might enjoy the game more", how is this gatekeeping is really beyond me.
About Scott Young's clip, the problem with his argument is that he conflates using something the devs intentionally put in the game and intended the players to USE (weapons/spells/summons) with using glitches in speedruns or hitting the boss from a weird angle behind a wall, these things aren't even remotely equal, using glitches or hitting the boss from behind a wall is by definition NOT what the devs intended, using powerful weapons/spells/summons is intended, therefor it's not the same at all as using glitches or exploits (which deservedly gets a bad rep).
idk, both glitches and intended features can run the gamut between cheesing and not cheesing, so I don't think conflating them really matters. Furthermore, I'd often agree that glitches often have more of a stigma to me, though idk if I can call them objectively worse 100% of the time for it. I suppose that may be more of a factor because the game is more often than not designed the way it is for good reason, meaning unintended cheeses more often tend to be "worse" cheese. This may seem a nitpick, but one that would make a difference when talking about a less well designed game. I guess most of that could be subjective anyway, but I felt like sharing my thoughts, so here they are.
Most people who disagree with the definition of cheesing at this point really comes down to the Comet Azure+Infinite FP stuff. I personally don't consider it cheesing, but I can see why some people might since it does stunlock some bosses. My argument is that some bosses cannot be beat this way, and some bosses are harder for mages to deal with than a melee character for instance. This really is a grander argument that Mages aren't really playing DS games and even stems into how powerful Ashes are in this game vs good old fashion R1+dodge roll strategies which were the best to use in older games (minus the mage builds which again are usually designated as cheese by the community).
Overall cheesing just has a very negative connotation to it, and the DS community, now elden ring community is very very toxic in it's gatekeeping so now even someone with a very lukewarm take gets caught in the crossfire. Elden Ring might be the worst it's ever been actually, though I suppose with more players you're just more likely to encounter those type of people.
I disagree with blind play through advice i usually do it in most games like looking things up never makes me lose enjoyment
It's interesting that you think exploits deserve to be looked down on. I've been watching a bunch of Trackmania videos recently, and records in those games often involve exploiting bugs. The community celebrates them, and hunting for new ways to break the game is worthy of respect. What's the difference, do you think? I realise that sounds like a loaded question, and I don''t mean it to be. This thought just occurred to me and I'm wondering.
@@gengar5213 eh, as someone who tends to do the same, it's hard to notice the enjoyment it brings without actually doing it. That said, I have trouble not looking things up, so I wouldn't shame you for it. Just a lil extra satisfaction, yaknow?
Elden Ring allows you to get so strong in PVE, that it trivializes a lot of things, compared to other souls games. OP isn’t calling looking things up in your first play though stupid, but I will lol.
Seriously though, do what you want. Though it must be said, The game intends for you to be powerful, sure, BUT, it also intends for you to explore and to find those things.
Exactly. A lot of these op strats and builds are nearly impossible to put together by organically exploring the world because their components are in different areas that you visit at different points during progression. By the time you should have access to them, you'd be much closer to end game where enemies are tougher and you have had time to actually engage with the games mechanics and challenges, instead of running through most of the game with an OP cheese build you looked up.
@@NocturneJester Some are pretty well hidden too if you don't pass the map with fine tooth comb. I almost missed hoarfrost stomp entirely, and didn't even find out how powerful it was until I found some other weapon that had the skill and tried it out. I do think some of the OP stuff should be nerfed. Post nerf, I feel quite a bit more comfortable using that skill for example, it's still super good, maybe a bit much, but it's not quite as busted.
Cheese was used in Starcraft as "all in strategy" that wins more than loses against bad players, but rarely wins against good players. It describes a strategy that is incredibly easy to accomplish, but once you did it and it didn't work, you've already lost.
Until everyone can agree on what "cheese" is in this game, this discussion will be completely fucked. Not that it matters because winning is winning and that's all that matters.
Well, the same can be said about "winning", if your definition of winning is a "foe has been felled" message on the screen then yes. But I think fun is also part of the equation.
Sometimes I was steamrolling bosses with my ashes of war and that left me feeling like I had wasted what could have been a good and fun boss.
In this game, cheesing is usually just taking advantage of enemy AI to get an easy win.
In PvP, cheesing is the same as in StarCraft. Using an all-in strategy that has a simple counter, and just hoping you don't get countered
@@aBucketOfPuppies This is my definition. I don't see using stuff they give you in the game as cheesing. This includes end game spells and ashes of war, as powerful as they are. Bosses are still hard. If they aren't you probably are doing something very right, or the boss just isn't a particularly hard boss fight.
@@GriFFonRec4 Find a hard boss and then summon spirits. It's no longer a hard boss.
This is the case nine times out of ten.
Most boss fights become piss easy once you start using spirit summons.
But if you somehow find most boss fights to still be difficult after using spirit summons, then you have my condolences.
As Tea rather thoroughly shows throughout the comments, the people that say they 100% agree with everything Ratatoskr says do have a tiny habit of insulting anyone that doesn't play like them.
Just a little.
Weird, it's like they don't actually agree with that part he threw in about not insulting people, and threw fuel on the fire that caused this.
It's very strange that he has so many of those agreeing with him.
Perhaps that is worth some introspection.
Honestly, I agree with your take on going in blind, I only wish I had seen your video before I started my playthrough of Elden Ring because I think I'm falling into the same issue that your friend did. There's nothing wrong with your opinion, its a good insight, and I don't know why people are reacting so strongly to it either. Glad you stood your ground and keep up the great content.
Elden Ring is so huge you have a chance to start a new character and play it blind, and I'm sure you'll run into things you haven't seen before. It won't be the same, but you'll be surprised at how much you can forget about. Lol. There's just sooo much stuff.
I
I really enjoyed part one. This is a good conversation that should occur.
I think this triggers people who don't want to admit that they bypass mechanics.
Humans get angry when they feel threatened. I see it as unwilling confrontation with honesty.
I cheese some bosses. I wish I didn't have to. It makes me feel like a failure because I know I'm not as good as other players. Or I'm just too lazy to spend time learning how to dodge the attacks.
But I've come to terms with it, and I use it as motivation to step it up next time I start a new game.
It's difficult to be that honest with yourself. 10 years ago, I don't know if I would have had the wits to admit to myself that I sought an easier route because I couldn't handle the challenge head on. I would have defended it as the same performance as someone who got up close with a sword.
The anger in this subject is projection, in my opinion.
@@MinecraftMartin yeah definitely seems like it, and I had the same experience with cheese. By the end of my first playthrough I just wanted to beat all the bosses rather than actually fight them. After coming out beating Malenia and Mohg with mimic tear I felt nothing. I came back next playthrough and soloed both of them after trial and error. They are probably some my favorite fights in the series now
@@squirtbrainz1219 I tried Mohg and I didn't like the fight. Too much surface dmg so I summoned (not mimic but still pretty good)
But I straight up refused to cheese Malenia just because the fight was so good. I still haven't beaten her but I'm okay with that and will try again next time
@@MinecraftMartin
People, in the wrong headspace, thinks that suggesting other players, as rude and/or mean at best, and as morally wrong at worst. The simple fact that you had anything to say about their way of doing things is already over the line. I believe this is what tip them off.
Let me preface this by saying, I look tonnes of stuff up before and while I play just about any game. I don't get to play games a lot and feeling endlessly lost or frustrated is not what I come to them for and yet I still absolutely agree with everything you're saying here. It's clear you were just giving your opinion on a way to play and in many ways it even reflects my experience. There have been many games that I've left in the mid to late game because I was overpowered and I knew I could easily finish it. I probably also knew exactly how the game would end cus I'd have already seen it. And for me, that's perfectly fine! As I said I don't have a lot of time and so that just so happens to be a satisfactory conclusion for me, with one caveat, it's satisfactory, so long as I played it the way I wanted to. What this means in elden ring is I haven't copied anyone's build cus I want to be a lighting Claymore wielding lord. I don't use furcalling remedies cus that's just not how I want to do it (but there are absolutely bosses I've cheesed by tucking out of reach and lighting bolting them to death- again, it's just me). I fight with brOleg instead of black knife tiche cus he's been there since the start- you can bet your ass I chose him from a top ten video though. I farm ruins and look up smithing stone locations, NPC locations, etc, but only til I have what I need to keep going with my story. I learnt how to parry for crucible knight cus that was more rewarding than just over levelling, but on the flip side, even having learnt his full skill set, I had to go do some grinding to _finally_ kill Godfreys ghost (and funnily enough Margott literally went down five minutes later). I one hundred percent don't think you're gatekeeping the experience, you just want people to think a bit about how they're choosing to play and making the decision that suits them best- not just the one that's easiest
I think with Elden Ring, there are some instances that looking stuff up is totally fair game. Last night, I was just walking around and randomly found a dungeon in the sewers of the Lyndell Capital. I had to jump down a bunch of coffins and got a lot of cool stuff for madness, which was awesome because that's what I wanted to build my character around for PVP. So I do all of that and I make it to the bottom and the floor caves in and I see a grace point and a cool looking door. So naturally, I open the door out of the same blind curiosity that led me there to begin with and a cutscene just automatically played whereby my dude just willingly let these random, burning set of 3 fingers just kinda wrap themselves around him and I guess he absorbs them? And that was it, no context at all. After telling my friends about it, my understanding is that I'm now locked into the shittiest ending in the game because of that. I'd say that's fine if I didn't already complete Fias quest line without any guides at all and I was really excited to see that, but now I guess I get to deal with whatever this one is
@@nickhard7615 oh that's rough! And mad respect to you for playing it so blind, I could never play through an entire game just to find out at the end I haven't gotten the ending I want
@@nickhard7615 *SPOILER*! and I don't know how blind you want to keep it, so feel free not to read this if you're keeping it that way!
There is a way to undo that and not get that bad ending!
@@nathanvanderriet209 I wouldn't do it. I believe you will need this endijng anyway for DLC in future. ;]
And is it a bad ending? It's debatable.
@@info0 oh it's for sure one of the two I'm stuck between choosing! That extra scene you get with you know gives chills
Brand new listener, new souls player here, and brand new subscriber. I think it’s great that these conservations are happening within this community. Coming from the FGC, with a horrid history of gatekeeping and elitism that is just now being addressed, it’s nice to see other communities trying to address it while expanding. I believe that many people who cry “gatekeeping” and “elitism” have experienced it much worse somewhere else before to the point it drove them away; souls games, 2D fighting games, fps games, etc. it’s possible many people here who are angry in the comments are extra sensitive due to previous negative experiences.
I have made previous attempts to play Dark Souls 1 in years past, only to (excuse the language) meet complete assholes who would withhold even the most vague advice when I would express exhaustion over what to do to get through the Undead Burg, Taurus Demon, and the Parish. I don’t want to be told what to do, but I really thought just saying “I need a little help here please” was no big deal. By the time I expressed frustration in the early parts of the game and went to a forum to find help, snide messages and vague responses about “keep looking around” just drove me away and I damned the whole community. It was a mirror experience to improving in fighting games.
With the help of a very kind friend, we found a middle in-between organic experience and hand holding and I’m finally making my way through Dark Souls 1. I will say that already it is a gaming experience I will never forget. I literally just beat Ornstein and Smough with a summon and my +5 Zweihander. One of the most hype moments I’ve ever had in a video game. Nothing anyone would ever say will take away from that 60th attempt that was finally successful.
Most people who attempt to play a souls game really suck at them, like completely hopelessly suck at them. But they are still trying their hardest, and will spend entire week’s worth of play session just to get from one bonfire to the next. Every single enemy becomes a boss in the name of surviving for an extra 30 seconds while taking days to understand what’s going on. With me feeling like I’m in this crowd I’ll say this; the players who just suck but still play and soldier on, we are trying our best. We want to enjoy what the game has to offer and not abuse a mechanic to get through it. We didn’t mod in difficulty sliders. And Im sure many don’t see any part of their experiences and struggles in the sea of meme videos and deep discussions about niche stuff in someone’s 20th play-through. Players who struggle and suffer, but still carry on and progress just want to be heard and validated in a community they are trying to fit in to.
I really enjoy your newer videos and discussions, and look forward to going through your video catalogue.
I feel like reading my own experience with Bloodborne (my first soulslike)
If not for the friends of mine who wanted to play together, i never would have made it through, these games don't tell you even the basest of mechanics at times like i-frames on rolls (Elden ring is actually the most generous of all titles in that department) and for someone like me that's atrocious, not as bad design necessarily, but because i know that i will only get frustrated until i know why i'm failing, and knowing that would help the frustration ease up to the point where i can actually retry a boss hundreds of times rather than 5 at most.
I even put this to the test, i asked my father once to play dark souls 3, and he's NEVER played a game with a 3d camera before, with his hardest game ever played being metal gear solid 1 on the psx over 20 years ago.
I've seen him(and recorded him, you can see it in my channel) beat gundyr(ds3's fiest/tutorial boss) in 1 hour of playtime total from making character to beating him over two days, whereas i've seen self and-proclained "non-casual gamers" fail and be frustrated for hours at gundyr, the main and arguably only difference? I told him how the buttons functioned, how rolls worked and what does 3 bars( ho bar, fp bar and stamina bar) meant and to "always keep an eye on them, never let them go to 0, or at least the ho one... Fp one and stamina can go to 0 if you feel you're safe"
That's it, that's the only difference, whereas the partners of those self-proclaimed gamers said nothing from start to finish.
By the end of it my father was fairly happy and glad he had a chance to play the game which he liked even if his genre is more casual games and stealth games, never having been angry, while the other person was so angry i was almost scared they'd start punching their partner, and swore to "never play souls games again"
A little bit of a different approach can make a world of difference.
Gatekeeping is not necessarily a bad thing. Some people should be kept out of a community.
I agree with this 100%
People who are lashing out in the comment section here against gatekeeping etc are people with their own lives too. They've either been burned in a past game, or they or someone they know has spent the past month fighting trolls on twitter who have been calling them bad players or cheesers or fake fans or whatever.
@@GeraltofRivia22 shut up
00:50 mad respect, dude. It is one thing to own up to things you have said, but an entirely different thing to own up to interpretations of what you said. You earned a sub.
As for why people were upset with what you said, I think you got most of the reasons between the granular definitions of cheesing and the negative connotations of cheesing.
One thing I will add is that when people have an emotional attachment to something, like the enjoyment they got from playing in a certain style, or the thrill of one-shoting a boss, they can become very defensive when someone suggests they should have done something different, even if that suggestion was honest, well meaning, and not trying to devalue what they did experience. I believe that if you had put out your previous video before Elden Ring came out, more people would have taken it for what it was: a suggestion of how you believe the most enjoyable way of playing is, but since people have already played and enjoyed the game in a variety of ways, they want to defend the experience they had with it, even when the threat to its validity is only perceived and not intended.
i think its maybe just taking things too much out of context, if people end up cheesing a boss - im just gonna safely assume they've already tried beating it fair and square. at that point, even i would just cheese it if i've been stuck for a while. just to see whats on the other side and have progress. But im the type to go back and learn the fight anyway, so for me it doesnt take away anything, im going to have atleast 7 playthroughs, one for every ending.
Everytime this comes up, I'll always have the same response. They put a ballista in the pursuer arena for a reason.
Same with the music box
Love the content. Glad you posted back to back! Can’t get enough.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I found the game more fulfilling playing X way, exploring at my own pace, not using guides, and think you should try it too."
You are absolutely allowed to voice your opinion about that.. Seems like more people gatekeep about how you like to play than the elitist "no spirit ash, naked run only" people.
To add my own fuel to the fire, I felt killing Margit and my first Godskin Apostle with a claymore and determination was more fulfilling than killing Malenia with Mimic and ice dragon breath spam. No one else has to feel the same as I do, but I am allowed to say I enjoyed the greater challenge more.
Sams build for me: claymore. Winning with just skill and no outside help is so much more satisfying than summoning a bunch of people bc you really can’t lose hence it’s not satisfying
@@Budd631 I've been using the kite shield and longsword for thirteen years, quality build for life
There's nothing wrong with it. Didn't people just say, no, thanks?
Martyr might die formulated it perfectly: "ratatoskr cheesed the game by getting his copy for free"
🤣🤣🤣🤣
Don't know if anyone's already made this point, but I think the reason people got upset about your suggestion to play through blind isn't because they thought you were giving them an order (though even they may think that is what upset them), but instead because *they actually agree with you* but don't want to accept the fact that they could have had a "better" first experience -- something they cannot go back and change.
From their own perspective, their first playthrough is "ruined" because they've looked stuff up. From there it just comes down to their ego and guilt. It's either a) agree with you and accept that they made a mistake and get over it or b) deny they made a mistake and try to convince themselves of that by arguing with you.
Ironically, they are playing a game that teaches you to live with failures and mistakes, but this one is apparently too hard to accept.
Just to clarify (since we love to misinterpret each other here on the internet), *I'm* not saying they made a mistake by not playing through blind, I'm saying that that is what *they* believe they did. I don't care one way or the other. I looked stuff up during my first playthrough, had a great time, and still agree with Ratatoskr about playing through blind your first time. I believe the victories would have been that much sweeter, and the discoveries that much more mind-blowing, but I'm still cool with what I got out of it.
agree, i played thru blind up until the midway part whr i actively started to look stuff up because i was consciously willing to trade the joy of finding it for myself for the convenience and the content it brings
Y E S
These people are guilty they basically spoiled the experience for themselves and are taking it out on whoever points it out
So what you are saying is that these people are projecting to instead of talking with
For some of them, perhaps
I feel like "cheesing it" is part the whole spirit of the series. You get to pick how difficult the game is for you.
Some areas you just want to run through and not constantly be on the defensive.
Nah, the only area that has made me feel this way is frigid outskirts in Dark souls 2.
Man did i love slumbering dragoncrest ring+hidden body in dark souls 3, really put to shame the idea that summoning phantoms is cheesing areas.
@@slycooper2bandofthieves116 everyone plays differently, but i getchu. I try not cheese unless Ive already explored an area and just looking for illusory walls. (For unneeded context, "cheesing" for me is relying on the dragon Rotten Breath a little too much)
They've always been so hard that completing them with the best builds was still really hard.
Definitely not. Again, cheesing is circumventing the mechanics, or exploiting a glitch. It's just generally doing something that allows you to avoid the challenge instead of engaging with it. Now in the open world where you have stealth and all that, sure, avoiding some challenges is intended. But when it comes to boss mechanics, avoiding the challenge is not part of the spirit of the series. Do it if you want. But the spirit of these games is the opposite. It's overcoming adversity, not cowering in front of it.
You got me to get 2 friends into elden ring as their first souls like game and all joined blind for first play through, and I even convinced them both to start as a wretch with me, and the way we all slowly ended up with different magic, naturally finding and using exclusive weapons, and the feeling of building your first set of armor and digging for scraps, it made them fall in love with the game in a deeper way I think any other first playthrough couldve been for them, and I convinced them to not use guides and they also managed to naturally get to the end of the game with minimal guidance (I didnt know more than them but knew the dark souls world design so hidden walls and drops were things I hinted at for them) but your encouragement to do playthroughs like that has made their love become so personal and natural, and made both of them want to go back and play all of the souls series with me. Thanks Rat.
I think the big reason why people are reacting to your value judgements at the end of the last video, is the subtle distinction between saying "There is more value in blind playthroughs" vs "I find there to be more value in blind playthroughs for myself". One can be taken as an objective statement of fact, and the other asserts that this is simply your subjective way of getting the most value out of the experience. I had assumed you meant the latter statement, as your tone and this video does not strike me as you making any kind of "objective" value judgement. But I can see why people who are already feeling sensitive about FromSoft veterans being judgemental to them on how they play, would react defensively and assume you meant the first one. Hopefully this helps shed some light on what I feel is the psychology behind the responses you are receiving.
He made it objective since the beginning of his last video by plainly stating that someone else’s opinion is “just wrong” and then following up his entire argument off of that.
There is objectively more value in a non-guided playthrough. Just as there's more value in someone understanding a subject vs memorizing an answer sheet and passing a test (aka "beating a boss"). Of course it depends on purpose, but the purpose of a game is usually somewhere around "to have a human experience" with, and there's objectively more of this value in Elden Ring when not guided, including playing offline.
I'll give 1 example to back up my point: I discovered something in Stormveil Castle and it was all on my own. I was very proud and passionate about that because it was hidden. I used my senses and time to attempt finding this, that which I had no idea even could be reached, but there were clues the devs put in the game, so it was doubtful they devs were fucking with me... right? Now, what if I had followed a guide showing me the way or I had been playing online and read a guided message? What if I took all the mystery out of it and removed the discovery? The only thing this path satisfies is just some other location with some sort of visual distinction obscured from view... it does not satisfy the discovery, pride, and passionate accomplishment. The difference is not that you got to "see" what I got to see, it's that you didn't get to experience how it came to be for yourself.
@@tylernol1566 Sure, and thats great you had that experience and hold those values to be important. But be aware that those are *your* values. Not everyone values discovery and exploration the way you do. You could put someone in that same situation and they might not care at all. They may get frustrated and feel there is much more value in simply knowing what the secret is, and dont place much stock in the journey it took to get there. For that person, the value of that experience is lower to them.
The problem is that there isn't really an objective metric with which to measure value. There are notions of value that are generally agreed upon by alot of people, but that doesn't make it objective truth. And when someone who has a different value set from you is told that their values are objectively wrong, well is it any wonder that person might get defensive?
Me: wanders around the game and figures out I can melt stuff with comet azue and a tear.
The internet: you cheese trash. What a no skill thing to do
Me: bro, I was having fun. Do you think this is a game?
There are two properties of the human brain that activate in this discussions: laziness (to preserve energy), and ego-defense (when a cognitive dissonance occurs).
Example: I looked up how to reach the Haligtree, because I'm too lazy to wander around aimlessly. If you tell me, this hurts my fun, that means I'm in the wrong and that hurts my ego. Now my brain looks for alternative explainations (where I'm not wrong) and it finds one. You are gatekeeping.
Of corse, I get that this does not make me be wrong. Just want to examine the mental processes behind this, as I am a student of psychology and this is quite interresting.
For what it's worth, I started DS1 and followed a guide and enjoyed it a lot, then moved on to Elden Ring and did a little blind and then looked up some stuff, and now I want to try what you suggest with future From games. After many hours I somewhat regret knowing all that I do about ER. I love Elden Ring, and I do want to know everything about it, but I wish I went in as blind wretch because I can't go back now and learn it all for myself, other's youtube guides have stuck in my brain and I can't unlearn it. I just didn't expect I'd feel that way, and I want you to know you convinced me to try something else in the future.
I did a bit of both, for the vast majority of things i was blind, but for others i got spoiled(goddamnit maximilian dood spoiling the malenia second phase and prod a certain weapon with their thunbnails) and for other thinhs like some quests steps i followed guides, even if by trying to look as little info as possible, and being finally at a point where i can see the endgame, i can say: i don't regret it.
I regret the unwilling spoilers for the most part, but with how damn long elden ring has been(200 hours and going in my blindrun) i literally could never have had the experience id did the way i did if not for how i decided to approach it.
And the best thing is that with other things i am doing to the side(i.e. drawing maps) i also know that my second run will be just as much if not even more beautiful to play through.
it's fine to do research, I just don't look up how to be overpowered. I look up how to do specific quests if I absolutely can't find where to go, but then there are spoilers and those aren't fun.
if I don't know where to go I look it up if I feel I'm wasting time, after all I have a job and I work. the rest is all blind however.
Yep this guy forgot he also started with guides because nobody is playing DS1 blind unless they have no life.
My first play through of darksouls was about a month before dark souls 3 came out, I looked stuff up, took advantage of strategies developed by people with far more time in the game than me, and I had a rotten time. When dark souls 3 released I played through it blind, explored on my own and overcame bosses without the help of outside resources. That was an experience I enjoyed far more. I deeply regret that I will now never be able to have a blind playthrough of Dark Souls. But I am grateful I learned my lesson before the release of elden ring.
Ok, this doesn't mean anything, this is just your experience only, and it's not proof that playing blind is better
@@Catomaster32 I agree, it is my experience and I was not making any sort of argument. But I will say that I have not yet encountered someone who has experienced both and prefers a guided playthrough over a blind one.
@@Catomaster32 Can you really "prove" that blind is better or worse ? It's up to the person. Everyone is gonna feel different about how they like to play the game
@@bingus2464 i prefer a guided playthrough i don’t like replaying game and also don’t have the time so i try to see everything on one go, and also you say you are not making an argument but at the same time you present that you haven’t seen proof of people liking playing guided so you are kinda making an argument
@@dusty7782 I think a lot of people are trying to prove that a blind game is better, this whole debate reminds me to undertale and how annoying and aggressive people were always reminding new players to play blind, on the other hand how aggressive people were trying to push new players onto one specific run or way of playing
I am so glad I did a blind playthrough for Elden ring. by the time I got into the souls series which was about a year before Elden ring I already knew most of the games and resorted to videos and guides to make a build I thought would be fun. I still really enjoyed the games, but I sometimes wish I got into the series back when DS1 came out. From what I've heard finding all these secrets and stuff as a small community back in the day was an amazing experience and I wished I had been a part of that. Elden Ring was my chance to experience this! I made sure I wouldn't be spoiled or influenced in the way I played for my first playthrough and it was pure bliss, it took me around a 100 hours to beat and I enjoyed every second and will always value that experience. Some of my friends picked up the game even though they had never played a souls and used guides and videos which I don't think is wrong in any way and they still became completely addicted to this game. I am not sure if they would have had a better experience if they played blind but that is not my point anyway. I just wanted to share how much of an experience playing this game was for me.
I think a lot of it boils down to this (the same thing that happens in fighting games); there are people who play for fun and people who play to Win, and the latter half don't care how it's done - the moment they start losing they stop having fun (and send me rude mail). I would rather lose every fighting game match I ever played by a sliver of health than take them all by a landslide, but in my experience I am in the minority there. Most seem to want to get OP early or mitigate their risks so that the threat of constant loss or the tedium of exploring and grinding (which many love) doesn't ruin the experience for them. Hope that makes sense.
I think it's less fun vs. winning, and more about the core problematic group feeling like their achievements were less impressive if others find easier ways to solve it. I for example find the stigma against (spirit) summons quite the definition of anti-fun, as they have a lot of interactions with the world and are quite clearly intended to be used, and that's probably why there's the amount of double (or even triple) bosses there are, and the one point Ratatoskr alluded to I disagreed with in the first video.
The difficulty slider in souls games for me have always been the level, and to some degree weapon upgrades, if it starts getting easy I just stop leveling/upgrading for a while, and after that pretty much anything that's not a pure exploit goes, but if people wanna keep going at that point because they're more invested in the story not getting held up by difficulty, they definitely should keep powering up.
@@MissSmoozie Totally. I personally like the ashen summons because they are like portable versions of NPCs from souls games past - a fail safe measure incorporated so that people with no Internet connection and players wanting a revisit ten years down the road still stand a chance against problematic encounters when there isn't a friendly soul to be found. Played DaS2 lately? It's a ghost town.
Fun VS Winning seems way oversimplified. They're plenty of people who will use cheese just because that's fun to them, and also plenty of people who will avoid cheese just so they can get an earned win.
@@shiftybat7318 especially with the pc servers down...at least some people were pvping...
@@beyondtrash1627 Now define 'earned' and what it means to different people.
It always comes back to the term 'game.'
The moment it stops being casual fun and becomes an onus of sorts it stops being a fun dalliance and becomes more of a rigamarole or gauntlet of expectations.
I've run into this with friends before, not about a Fromsoft game, but about new experiences in general that they've barely or never tried. Those friends will sometimes be adamant that they know for sure they wont or flat out *can't* enjoy the thing, despite never having really given it the benefit of the doubt. Interestingly, they aren't unaware of this, and will usually tell me that they don't *need* to try the thing to know they wont like it; that they've "reasoned out" it's not for them.
This feels like a trap to me, mostly because I've been in that same situation many times, but have instead given the thing that "I wont like" a proper chance. It's not always the case, but many times I've learned I was mistaken in assuming I'd dislike the thing - sometimes, *very* wrong, as the thing turned into an honest passion of mine. With this knowledge, I often try to really encourage people to ignore what they think, and try a thing anyway, knowing statistically that they'll be mistaken about at least *some* of the things they think they don't like. Unfortunately, those conversations usually play out similarly to how this current discourse is playing out.
The best conclusion I've come to, is that some - maybe most? - people just really hate being told that they might not know what they do and don't enjoy. It feels to me like that notion is interpreted as inherently argumentative, and thus a form of aggression. They don't hear "I think you might enjoy it, so give it a shot!", but instead they hear "You're wrong/dumb for thinking that, and I know better!".
Absolutely, even i who surprisingly (and i mean it, i'm no market analyst or whatever, i just read interviews every once in a while) am EXTREMELY good at foretelling how a game it's gonna be like before release have found myself quite a few times surprised by titles i didn't much of but instead became a fan of.
People just don't know what they want, yet feel 100% sure they do know.
No offense, but if you really think “I think you might enjoy it, so give it a shot!” is the usual way people who call out cheese chooses to go about it, you really haven’t seen much of what’s going on in this community.
@@macrosis1674 I'm only talking about myself, ratatosker, the thoughts he expressed in this video, and the comments he received on his last video that prompted him to make this one. I'm sure, yes, there are many bad faith actors out there, but they weren't the subjects of my comment.
TL;DR because I wrote something kinda long and rambly: I don’t think it’s a black and white situation, when it comes to cheese and looking things up, play the way you most enjoy. I recommend going in blind to find a style you enjoy playing, then looking stuff up to find stuff you either missed or would enhance your existing build.
I kinda disagree on a few fronts with this video but I also agree with the spirit. Elden ring is the first FS game I’ve looked stuff up for and it’s probably been the most I’ve enjoyed one. In my experience even playing blind you can unintentionally “cheese” bosses or not engage with certain mechanics entirely simply because you didn’t know any better. My prime example is DS1 a game I went into entirely blind, I first tried O&S and I used a summon. Later I went on to read that people thought using summons were an invalid way of playing the game and were cheesing the bosses because you didn’t have to engage with them the “intended” way. At first this kinda crushed me an soured my enjoyment of a lot of the game, hearing that I didn’t play the game the “right way” took away from my experience and the effort I genuinely put in. Now that I’m older I realize how ridiculous that is and that anyone dictating how you should enjoy a game is being a bit gatekeepery. In other games there have been entire areas and bosses I missed out on because I didn’t look anything up, there were mechanics I straight up never even engaged with that would’ve been a lot of fun for me because I didn’t know about them. Items that really would’ve improved my experience and play style that I had no idea existed. Yes I think there’s a lot of enjoyment in discovering these things for yourself but I also think people should be open to looking stuff up after you feel like you’ve completed an area or things they feel would enhance their play style. For me I looked up where to find the greatsword both because I loved berserk and because big dumb idiot with a big sword is my preferred play style. I looked up armor that had higher poise because it helped with my slow heavy attack strategy, I looked up spells that provided buffs after I discovered a few and realized I enjoyed that style, I looked up niche talismans I would’ve completely missed otherwise, and I looked up dungeons for areas I thought I’d already completed. It’s been a lot of fun naturally discovering new stuff in this game, but looking stuff up so I don’t miss stuff or so I can improve my existing build has dramatically improved my enjoyment of this game.
This is the part where I say I never beat DS1 because I didn’t know where to go to find the four kings, the bed of chaos, or Gwynn. If I’d just looked it up I would’ve beaten the game in a few more hours. Going in blind is great but it can also have serious draw backs that can ruin the experience. Like spending a couple hours with a massive health rebuff because you didn’t know how to cure it and had to figure it out yourself.
Also, if you can play with a friend, talking on discord while exploring and playing through this game is a lot of fun and it’s so enjoyable to be discovering different things and areas and sharing what you find. And being summoned in to help with a boss is so much fun
Everyone is missing the most important point here... Miyazaki cheesed the players by giving all the bosses delayed attacks and ridiculous windups.
Those windups exist to deny you dodging skills learnt outside of the souls series. The black knight from ds1 is also like that and filters many new players.
Personally I don't like learning through trial and error this way, but at least they made bonfires more frequent and make the walk back to the boss simpler.
The crucible knight can suck my cockerel, insane move variance and no timer between using the same attack more than once, plus he can mix moves into each other fairly easily.
@@idunno402 ain’t gunna lie killed crucible knight before Margit because he was easier for me lol i died to him so so many times before I did him hitless
@@funynonsence same, I do think he's easier but I hated the dual crucible knight fight. The one in the evergaol was relatively easy.
It’s okay man. Don’t let the crowds get to you! Love the content!
Love the way you explain your viewpoints in general man , not to mention you have a relaxing voice . Great video as always , people just get prickly when they think are being criticized
I'm with you 100% on this one. I didn't look up anything until end game for Elden Ring and even then I kind of regretted it
I have a possibly unrelated comment. I have just now been able to get to the second area of the game. I started playing it day one. I want to play it every day, but my life has been so hectic and crazy that I can barely fit in a couple hours a week to gameplay. I do agree with you that a blind playthrough would give the best experience, and that's how I want to play, but in my case (and I'm sure I'm not alone) my slow pace means that if I want a truly blind playthrough, I basically have to disconnect from the Elden Ring community. I can't watch any videos, or discuss any commentary. Now of course for a game I'm so excited about, and considering all my friends are playing at a much faster pace, talking about the game in the discord chat, this is pretty difficult. It's not even a 'avoid spoilers' thing. I'd literally have to go off the friend call any spare night I get to play, and I dunno, that seems isolating. Part of enjoying the game is discovering all these cool things and sharing them with people, at least for me. But when you're forced to a slower pace then others, the faster folks get to share all these cool OP things, and you want to try them out, to try to keep pace with the conversation. And then when someone tells you 'you're cheesing the game by looking up/getting these OP options sooner then you should have' my response is like 'what, do I have to wait until next year when I finally get to that location in the game cause of all the real life shit going on right now? Will you still be talking about how cool 10 second FP azure comet is in a year? Will it even still be in the game, or will Fromsoft patch it out/nerf it?" I just want to find neat things and share them too. I never got the Mimic Tear before it was changed, and I just feel the conversation about these things slipping away from me.
One point that I think you did not stress enough is that people might still decide they would rather look stuff up after trying not to, and they're totally allowed to do so and they're allowed to think that it's more fun this way. The argument is that you should at least try and you might be missing out because looking stuff up is much easier. But you might actually love the challenge if you give it a try.
I agree with everything else you said in this video, it's not gatekeeping or elitism. Apparently this topic is much more sensitive than one would think lol
For that last part, I'm going to use a food analogy here, but bear with me for a moment.
Someone cooks a dish for you their own way. You suggest that the next time, they try cooking it a different way, because they might like it. This suggestion is in no way you saying they should feel bad as a cook, saying they should never use their own way ever again, or that you know more about cooking than them. You are simply extrapolating that if you, a human being, liked that dish another way, they might do too.
In modern times, even such a thing is seen, by a small subset of people, as rude and/or mean at best, and as morally wrong at worst. The simple fact that you had anything to say about their way of doing things is already over the line.
And you know what ? I think it's sad that these people ended up this way, but it's not their fault. As far as I can tell, these are people who have suffered from being invalidated, put down, or told how to live their life too many times. Humans tend to do that by default, and the Internet hivemind has taken it even further. Their zero tolerance policy on anyone having anything to say about how they decide to do stuff, while sadly making them miss potentially constructive criticism or suggestions, is simply a defense mechanism they adopted, possibly without even realising it.
New analogy to fit what actually happened in the first video:
You cook something for me using standard ingredients that anyone would expect to be in the dish. It’s good, everyone enjoys it. I then stand up and tell you that you are “just wrong” for using certain ingredients and that my way of doing it is better.
You see, two people can have different opinions, and both of them can be right. It’s no longer an “opinion” when you try to state it as a fact by telling someone else their opinion is “just wrong”.
I love how this starts off with a food analogy and escalates into human psychology and "internet hivemind", well done
@@WeinerTouchy He never stated that his way to play is better for everyone, or other ways of playing are wrong.
His message was "I enjoyed it more this way, and many others have too. Consider trying it."
I'm curious what exactly gave you the message that he was saying everyone else is "just wrong", rather than stating an opinion that he prefers a different way?
Both these analogies aren't completely applicable. When someone cooks something for you, they give you something. Telling them another way to do it after they've made the meal for you is kind of rude.
In the videos, he's not telling people that are giving him anything. A better analogy would be perhaps rockclimbing.
Someone climbs a wall and they asked a more experienced climber for help on where to go and put their feet/hands to climb it easier before they started.
They climbed the wall, nobody is denying that. But then someone suggests to them that they might want to try climb the wall themselves, without asking for help. Maybe they would enjoy the task of figuring exactly where to go and which techniques to use.
@@WeinerTouchy
as someone already pointed it out,
there is a huge difference between the statement "there is more value in a blind playthrough" vs "i find more value in a blind playthrough for myself" . And the first video defintely meant the latter, it is sad that people interpret as the former for some reason.
it is just a suggestion , and not a malevelent one at all. i personally find the latter more enjoyable so i suggest others to do so cuz i want everyone to enjoy the fromsoft magic if blind playthroughs, now blind playthroughs doesnt mean u gotta rip out ur internet connection and never ever look up anything ever no matter the cost, but more like: dont try to look everything uo beforehand, it is not a job about ur efficiency, it is a game to enjoy, and u will never know what u enjoy the most unless u never try different methods
For what is worth, your first video was already pretty clear to me. I don't feel you are being condensending in your explenation. You just have an opinion (A pretty open-minded one) and just want to share it. Nothing else.
I think it's great that you had this fantastic experience with the From Software's games and try to tell people about it without imposing the way you see things. I don't agree with everything you say but it is great to see someone open to the dialogue and not just judging others because they choose to play the game one way or another.
Anyway ... Keep up the good work ! I'm already waiting for the next video ! See ya !
I think Elden Ring has an issue that other FromSoft games don't: It's a giant world, with much repetition, reused monsters, crypt/mine layouts, etc. I really enjoyed it playing it blind up until about 40-50 hours, but it really started to get tedious after that. The game's main quest is constructed in a way, that you can't just easily hop from one lord's dungeon into the other's one, you will be too weak that, and you will be definitely need to level up. Of course, grinding monsters is boring, so you go out and explore the world, find secrets, do mini-dungeons, fight cool boss fights, etc. and leveling up by actually doing something fun. But after a while the repetition will became obvious, it will start to feel as grinding, and you just want to finish the game, yet there's still way too much to go, and a lot of them will be all the same stuff you already saw. So what's left to do is you either beat the main dungeons/bosses on a much harder difficulity then it was intended by the devs, or you start cheesing the game as much as you can, including bosses. I think making the world this big, is actually a downside compared to DS1 for example.
I think you are right that not cheesing bosses is the most rewarding and fun way to play, but I also think that FromSoft cheesed the development by extending their world too much without adding enough variety to make it exciting through and through, and after 50 hours it really starts to feel like I'm playing something by Ubisoft. So that's my excuse haha.
Btw, if you play on PS4, deaths are suddenly even more punishing then you might have used to, because post-death loading times are unreasonably long, especially if you are fighting against a new boss you haven't figured out yet: You fight, you die in 30 secs, then wait a minute for loading, then you walk back to the boss room in another 30 secs (or more). Sure, the PS4 is old tech, and has an HDD, slower loading times are given, but it's not just that, because if you get revived in the area where you died, there is absolutely no need for the game, to reload all the assets again, they just have to reset the monsters and breakable objects, and that's it. There are games like Celeste or reIterate() which are much harder then Elden Ring, but it's also much less frustrating to die in those games, because you can get right back into playing without waiting for minutes.
nah i play on PS4 & this is not my experience whatsoever. like load times are annoying but i haven't noticed them be any worse than previous games. it just makes me more excited to play it on an sdd one day
also I am playing effectively blind. By that I mean once i've been out of an area for a bit / i think i might have missed something i want to find & have no idea where to even begin to look, i will do a judicious google search to find one piece of information i didn't already have, then put the browser away & return to the game to try to do something with this knowledge. i've done this maybe five times in 200 hrs? (first playthrough still, btw) idk that's just my experience.
Hey R, I like your videos. You're level-headed and thoughtful. I like hearing your opinions. I think the issue I had with your last video basically comes down to the definition of 'cheese' being used. To me and others, the word carries negative connotations, even an implication that it is cheating. You and Scott certainly see it differently. Scott even expressed a positive slant on it, as in the cleverness in speed running. I can see that point of view as well. However, I (like you) enjoy playing a blind run because I think it is very fun/satisfying to discover things for myself, go through the process of figuring out the bosses for myself. Stuff like that. Imagine I found the big boom spell and the unlimited FP flask, and imagine I realized how well they would work together by my own creativity, not from watching somebody show it off on RUclips. When you then call it 'cheesing' when I used it to kill a boss, to me it diminishes the discovery of the item and the creativity of combining it with another amazing thing I found on my own wits. The boss was only trivialized because I went into the fight well prepared. When you call that 'cheesing,' it lumps it in together with people who just looked it up, where to find the item and how to use it. See how those are two very different things? I think it is worthwhile to have a word to distinguish people who figure things out for themselves and play the game within the rules of the game creators and those people who find ways to break the rules or look up solutions online. Not that there is anything wrong with that; it's a matter of preference. I have been gamer for a very long time, and in my experience 'cheese' is the word to distinguish these two play styles. Respect.
I absolutely agree with everything you've said here, and in the previous video. Especially the idea that players should try to play through these games the first time through 100% blind. The way I see it, if you go into this game thinking "It's going to be too hard for me, I should just look up how to be strong," and do that for your first playthrough, there's no real turning back. You've given up your one opportunity to do it all blind and organically, and now you have knowledge that will make future playthroughs that little bit easier or less mysterious. As you've said at one point or another, that's kind of robbing the player of a valuable experience. Fromsoft's games are so beautiful to me because of the countless little moments of surprise, whether it's as simple as an enemy popping out from behind a corner or a majestic view you weren't expecting to emerge in front of you. Watching a playthrough or a guide cheapens each and every one of these moments by experiencing them secondhand, and that's why I personally will always go 100% blind until the game rolls credits. That being said, if someone doesn't care about any of that, they have absolutely no obligations to play the game the way I do, and that's okay. Let's just all enjoy video games together. At the end of the day, if you're having fun, you're doing it right.
I agreed with you until everything except the end. If someone were to ask someone "which game is better ____ or Elden Ring" what the person values in a game will reflect in their answer. the converation here is less about "Fun" in a game and more about "Value" in a game. in some peoples brain they only know how to operate in "Fun" and they dont understand video games as a medium for an artistic experience.
@@freshtodef123456789 I can agree with that. What one thinks will be the most fun path might not end up being the most impactful one. Which is why I echoed Ratatoskr's desire to encourage people to not immediately look to guides and instead experience the game to its fullest without outside influence. But we have no right to police people toward that behavior, and when it comes down to it, people are capable of making their own decisions. All we can do is offer suggestions / advice.
I think your previous video was perfectly fine! It has encouraged me to ditch online resources in my own playthrough and I find myself actually enjoying the game more because I'm not just ticking off an extensive shopping list. I can echo a few of the others here where I think everyone has very different definitions of what "cheese" is, which is made even more complicated by having a souls like rpg set in an open world.
Hats off for you offering your take on the discussion, and getting people talking. That is what really matters!
Bashing on 'souls elitists' has become far more common than actual souls elitists. It feels like a 10 to 1 ratio or worse these days. I love the struggle then conquer play pattern of From games, though, and I've agreed with these last couple of videos.
i think it carried over. i remeber calling people try hard to protect my ego when i was younger.
now the young kids seem to call them sweaty.
even though i was one of them , i dont get why people hate people who are better at games.
Most commonly the bashing of Souls Elitists that I normally see it's an easy strawman they want to attack of an argument that only happens in their head with them as the winner.
Your content is awesome . Everyone has their own take and you have great points. I just finished Mohg Lord of Blood. The satisfaction of engaging the boss and triumphing is what this game is about . Not shooting 300 arrows from a statue outside arena .. I died sooo many times lol
Idk, man, I’ve fought Demon of Hatred both normally and by making him fall off the arena… and I definitely had more fun killing him the second way XD
It’s all down to personal preference.
Best boss in all of Souls for me
@@jamesohearn2364 I've done both as well, the cheese was tedious to pull off and unfulfilling.
@@strangegreenthing, eh, personal preference? I got it second try :P
Well, I believe the downside to "just try a blind playthrough" is the time spent not having fun in a game. My fiance absolutely prefers to look everything up beforehand because he likes to feel powerful in games like this. That way, when he dies, he knows it's his fault and it has nothing to do with the unoptimized build he made. He tried to play the original dark souls blind and ended up quitting halfway through because he wasn't having fun with the game, sort of like the opposite of your friend. And honestly, even though I prefer blind playthroughs, I'd never suggest he try one again, because I know he wouldn't find it fun. So I do agree with your point, just not the part where you say "there's no downside", because there definitely is.
there's no downside to trying it. if it's not for you then look things up.
I definitely understand that time is valuable and that, especially as our lives become more busy, we want to make optimal use of the leisure time we have. So if a blind playthrough ends up being unenjoyable, that time will have provided a less optimal amount of enjoyment compared to looking up an overpowered build and wrecking everything without having to learn the game naturally. Time is very limited, and it is in our best interests to try to make the best usage of the time we have.
But as an addendum to your comment (not a counter point), I think most people will agree that some amount of experimentation is necessary to figure out what you want in life. So while there is a downside in the risk of losing some time that could have provided more pleasure, everyone has to make a cost benefit analysis to figure out which experiments are worth trying based on the information they have. There is a possibility that you could discover something that you enjoy more than anything else in your life. I think we all know a kid who refused to eat a food until someone finally persuaded them to try it once and then the kid loved it (that was pancakes for me as a child). But as time goes on we become less willing to experiment because we usually feel like we have less time and energy to devote to things that don’t seem as likely to be enjoyable (though that can vary from person to person).
I can definitely understand why anyone (such as Ratatoskr in this case) would want to share something that brings them joy so that others can possibly enjoy it too, which is basically saying "Hey, I think you should consider this info (I found this to be fun) when making that cost benefit analysis on how to spend your time." After all, by having more info, a person should be able to make a more informed decision and hopefully have better chances of having more fun in life, assuming the info is good. Granted, for that sort of thing to really be useful it helps to also know whether the the people involved have similar or wildly different tastes. I think it is fair to say that people don’t always know what they will enjoy and it can be a kindness to nudge them into stepping outside of their comfort zone, but it is also fair to say that it isn’t worth it (or even possible) to try everything once. Some things are pretty unlikely to be enjoyable for a given person, and it is completely fine for that person to look at a suggestion and say, "Nope, I think that’s going to be in the list of things I never try and I'm not going to lose any sleep over it."
Personally, I have fun both playing the games without looking up anything and searching up information. My first "souls" game was Dark Souls which I played though complete blind with a few hints from my older brother who recommended it. I loved it but when I played Bloodborne I ended up looking up information. Dark souls and Bloodborne are my two favorite games from the series and I played them each very differently. So I believe it all just depends.
I feel like the definition of slang like 'cheese' can be a little bit fluid depending on the community. Video games are quite broad as a medium, and there are a lot of smaller micro-cultures that can develop within genres or even individual games. Our time and finances are finite, and we would never be able to truly deep dive into every game and every community even if we wanted to. So I can imagine two people being introduced to and interpreting a specific term in slightly different ways. For example I can see where people are coming from with 'cheese' being unintended exploits, but as someone who primarily heard the term in Starcraft I disagreed. In SC 'cheese' has a very specific definition in which players leverage mechanics to end the match as quickly as possible by sacrificing any hope of victory if it doesn't work out. Like making your workers attack their workers at the very start of the match. You're sacrificing your ability to create a stronger economy and army in favor of hopefully killing them then and there. It's a perfectly valid (if reviled) strategy, and even the pro players have cheese strats in their arsenal. If 'cheese' in that game referred to something unintended or exploitative then the devs would have prohibited it in tournaments and patched it out. That doesn't make it not cheesy. But that's one game's definition of cheese, and there's no guarantee that people with other backgrounds would agree.
In regards to Cowboy's tweet being too conclusive or final though, I feel like that's partly the limitation of the medium he's using. I think having character limits like that can alter the way you present your argument, and if he'd make a video essay about it then his take would be much more nuanced. If anything I think you two probably believe the same thing, it's just that Twitter is a godawful platform that will help kill us all
I think you are quite clear and articulate and I appreciate that. You approach these videos with a thoughtfulness that I wish even a small fraction of the human populace would use when talking about anything let alone a video game. In my experience, you can be as clear and concise as possible but there will still be those who are not active listeners and only hear what they want to hear and react without thinking. I am a teacher, we assess children with these learning challenges and despite what people may hope or think, they don't just go away when one becomes an adult. The problem with RUclips discourse is that you cannot engage with these kinds of people with strategies that help them to understand and those who are not self aware of their deficit will often turn to offense the older they get as if they have earned some level of intellectual respect by virtue of existing over an extended period of time. This isn't to say, don't keep trying. In fact, please do. It sets a good example. Just don't let it keep you up at night. Stay humble, hustle hard.
I like you, you don't let bitches walk all over you
Well said.
Edgy.
I found your content fairly recently and am already a big fan. You are clearly a very intelligent and well articulated person and as such I really appreciate you looking at your comments and handling the criticism you find valid. With that being said, it’s the internet: a lot of people will take everything you say in bad faith so they can get mad. That’s just how the internet works. I think Joseph Anderson covers why this happens very well in one of his videos (I think it’s why horror games don’t scare me but don’t quote me on that).
I know you don’t have to listen to me, but I think responding to the bad faith criticisms only detracts from an already excellent video or at least doesn’t add anything substantial enough to justify their inclusion imo. The dialogue you have with your community is superb but I don’t think conversing with those who don’t really have much to say is either a good look or says what you’re hoping to say.
Edit: it’s actually the response to the above mentioned video called “subjectivity is implied”
Being able to explain your opinion with lucidity and without putting down others is a really refreshing thing. I've if I didn't agree with you, I respect the hell out of the way you present yourself and your views. Thanks for doing what you do.