Wonderful! Now I know that you're deceitful. I must click the bell notification icon, otherwise I fear that I wont be able to watch the video, since you can delete it at any time, as you've proven previously. If that happens again, I'll miss your true and honest opinion. I find this curious, because I almost never click that Bell, no matter how much I like that RUclipsr.
@@eliudelcastillo2350 Now that’s a hot take! He provides a video for clarification, labels it PART 2, references his first video…and you think…he’s being deceitful? Sir, can you please show me on this doll where Ratatoskr has hurt you?
My current feeling about this game is to play it anyway you want as long as you personally are having a good time... who cares what any other gamers thinks.
Yeah, I have a friend that finished the game and is going to make a new game (ina conoletely new save file), I told him I didn't understand his decision, why starting a new game when you can start a new game +? In my opinion is better in all ways. So I don't share his opinion, but I respect his decision. Let people play the game however they want. Same goes for the weapons or spells people uses.
@@Dekross I would rather start a new save file than go to NG+ because I'm most likely bored with the playstyle I used and want to try something else, and actually gathering the gear and placing the stats for a build over time is my favorite part of an RPG
Here's my point of view that no one asked for: I enjoy grinding levels and feeling overpowered. I also want to look up everything so I don't miss any items or quests. Playing the game in this way maximizes the fun for me. That being said, someone who beats the whole game on level 10 with a club deserves to feel more accomplished than me. That sounds like an absolutely miserable experience, but you definitely got to interact with every bosses move set. We both maximize our fun and we should respect each other's point of view.
I agree with this, what's fun to me with the game is having the option to get so strong I feel powerful and then my ego gets shattered when I get to fight Malekith.
I get this so well, but I also get the _"why not look everything up for the 2nd playthrough and just have that one and only chance of finding things on your own"_ argument Rata made on his 'get naked' video.
Overleveling and looking everything up sounds miserable to me. No discovery, no challenge, no mystery, nothing. Just a hollow experience. But if it's fun for you, that's fine. However I do think there's a happy medium between trivializing the game and doing it at level 10. In fact the happy medium is pretty much the way the devs expect most people to play on a 1st run. Not level 10, but also not overleveled. And I think that happy medium makes more sense.
I see cheesing as jumping over the lord of blood's wall and just wacking away while he stands there. But making a really powerful build that can destroy bosses is just another play style
I don’t see dual cold katanas as cheesing even tho they melt bosses because you have to respect the bosses attacks and learn how to dodge and when to punish. Summoning a friend to rack up damage and pull a boss’s agro as u spam magic from afar, or run in to get the occasional hit is cheesing tho. And when I hear my friends complain about how poorly made and stupid a boss is when I’m the one fighting it gets on my nerves.
@@jasemayfield6853 yeah you can’t brag about beating a boss if you had two other people do it for you. But if you spec into 60+ int and made an op build, you’re just smart
True, though there are certain things that are simply broken and need tuning balance wise. But overall, a good build is a good build, and it should give you advantages.
@@jasemayfield6853 If you use overpovered weapons you don't need to respect anything if you can kill it in a few hits. As long as you don't get oneshoted of course. In fact I believe that is exactly the reason why FROM increased dmg values in late game so much. They don't want players to cheese their bosses.
I’ve always thought of it like this: “the boss is using whatever it has at its disposal so Ill just use whatever I have.” At the end of the day I’m just playing the way I want and I encourage everyone else to do so to. Play the game accordingly to the experience you want to have.
Sounds good but is not as satisfying, I mean I was happy to 5 jump malenia with double seppuku twin blade and mimic but it was nowhere as satisfying as when I legit 1v1 her without any cheese or gimmick in NG+ I would recommend people to fight each boss at least once in a legit 1v1 later on in their play.
@@herohonda4183 be me >played second Souls like game ever >was using RoB and BHS since 1.02 >1.03 dropped and oopsie now i'm cheeser and something that normal human would call like "He didnt have a father that for sure" >started new character , went fire/streight >Get trough pain and suffering of unversetile build >Got to Malenia >Died more than any youtuber ever did > Respected to arcane/dex back anyway
@@glassplanet5624 “supposed to be” the Elden ring isn’t supposed to be anything, the whole idea of souls games is that we are underpowered nobody compared to the rest of the world but still prevail through sheer fucking will. Miyazaki likes the very human idea of being born a nobody but being a somebody through hard work, skills and dedication. This is seen in all his games
My problem is that the definition of “fighting a boss normally” is very limited. I think the reason FS nerfed some powerful tools (and buffed some of the less powerful spells) is that they want the player to be overpowered in a variety of ways. They don’t want hoarfrost stomp or mimic tear to always be the answer. A good example are some of the gank bosses. With Erdtree Burial Watchdog duo, you can throw a couple crystal darts to berserk the watchdogs and get them to kill each other to make it a 1v1 fight. Demi-Human Chiefs are in a room filled with mobs that can swarm you and even kick the ass of otherwise powerful summons like Godrick Soldiers, except for wandering nobles, who can swarm and stun lock one of the chiefs to free to player to clear out the mobs. A final example would be Commander Naill, where the player can throw a betwitching beach to get to Naill’s summons to turn on him. The point of these examples is to show that many of the ways you can fight bosses don’t fall under the definition used for “fighting normally,” and would be considered “cheesing” by some. However, these actually engage with the game mechanics more since you’re taking advantage of boss characteristics that a dodge and punish melee focus never would (Watchdogs as multiple easily frenzied husks, the Demi-chiefs as a staggerable hoard, Naill’s summons as spirits). Again, FS’s patches have pointed towards this since they don’t want players to just use SoNaF and Mimic Tear, but to experiment with the other summons, and the mass of craftable items. This is a consistent design choice going back to DeS, where every enemy had exploitable weaknesses (to an almost comical level), whether than be Fire, magic, piercing attacks, bows, great flame shield, etc.). These are fantasy adventure games at their core, and Elden Ring has leaned the most into the adventure part, and part of that is finding and experimenting with new and silly ways to fight back against a cruel world
Agree and as example i would like to focus on mimic tear which was op before patch because a mage could summon it and the tear would have tank levels of HP. Mimic tear is at a perfect balance right now, I beat the game with only 9 mind and up until i got infinite FP (75% thru), mimi was my only option other than jellyfish or wolfs but based on the boss i would equip different gear summon and then swap gear for myself as need to complement. If i hadn't already been tanky my self mimic would have no hp and no defense but if i tried to cheat its intent and cross equip some "op" spells well it ended up not doing very much dmg if any because i wouldn't have done much either since most of my mage stats stayed at base lvl and i would boost stats to be able to use a spell so I could try and force mimic to use. Even though i mostly used mimic for mid thru late game. Its balance would have me thinking about not just my gear but its gear before i summoned, adding a nice RTS element. A lot of optional bosses punish rolling, parry, AND block but instantly break down with just two targets in the arena
Uhhh, not sure what ur getting at, but I would go out on a limb to say that using mimic tear and that frost move aren’t the intended or normal “answer” to beating or fighting a boss. I think there is a wide spectrum between cheesing and doing the most optimal, efficient or intended strat
I was honestly surprised how many DS1 bosses had gimmicks which void the difficulty. People act like “casuals” are new, but this crap has been around for a decade
I find the easy/cheesy debate so interesting. I took your advice from a while ago and started my first play through as the Wretch. Gradually found strength and faith based stuff, and then eventually respecced into a Paladin samurai. It felt like a very natural progression. But, I think, things like infinite FP+kamehameha aren't there specifically to make bosses easier, they're there to make you feel like a powerful fucking wizard. Summon ashes aren't there specifically to make bosses easier, they're there because co-op is such an important part of the game, that they wanted you to be able to experience it even if your friends aren't online. I was level 135 when fighting Mohg and even with a +10 mimic tear, I still had to fight strategically to win. Even with +10 on one of the best summon items, it took me like 15 tries and it still required me to learn movesets and strategize. Though obviously there are bosses that get absolutely melted by any co-oping whatsoever. To me, souls and Elden Ring are role-playing games. That's why I don't mind people looking up sheet to go for their build, cuz one of the most satisfying things is having your build finished and playing the character the way you want to. And if that means that the end result of their build is boss-melting badassery either in the form of magic, incantations or melee combat, then that makes sense right? By the end of the epic fantasy series, the good guys is usually mega powerful. To me, moreso than game balance, that's the experience the game is trying to give you.
Mimic Tear made my Malenia win far more satisfying than I ever could have expected. See, as a mage, that thing can't solo shit. But what it can do is coordinate with me. It can time a perfect staggerlock with the Spinning Weapon staff ash to let me rush in, or synchronize Wing of Astel casts for that poise buildup. And it can do what made the fight feel awesome - double down on Adula's Moonblade. Being perfectly in sync with the Mimic for a few precious seconds and watching the scariest boss in the game melt to a coordinated attack is incredible. I don't know how the hell it nuked Goddess of Rot before dying, though. I think its AI randomly decided to finally use my Dark Moon Greatsword. But whatever insane kamikaze attack it pulled off let me win there too. Honestly? Worth it. Sure it did 2/3 of phase 2 through inscrutable wizardry. But for a few brief moments there actually was just straight up two of me fighting up close and personal, and damned if that doesn't rock.
Personally, I think a large part of the issue with "cheesing" is the role of the internet and overpowered build guides one can find online. If you're someone who found all the elements of the comet azure strat yourself, put them all together in your own head and thought "is this gonna work?" and then nuked a boss, you've absolutely earned that victory 100%. However, if you looked up online how to make the build, followed a guide on getting all the items and putting them together properly, then you've just robbed yourself of the chance to invent that strategy yourself, and it also makes any boss victories you have with it feel a bit... hollow. Like, someone else did all the work for you. The hardest part of the comet azure strat is to find all the items and make the build. If you've essentially cheated that part with a guide, you've left yourself with no room to add your own input to the gameplay. You might as well just watch someone else do it.
@Johnny Millar See you are not exactly supposed to be a boss-melting-badass in this franchise, that is why it is kinda strange. And if you look at the interview with Miyazaki it is generally more about overcoming challenges, than roleplay per se. And if you just straight up skip those it seems not to be in the interest of the developer (I think). Other fact, there are a lot of first trys which end up with a katana+(wisdom/faith) build. Problem is more, that the combo is pretty strong and you will have no problem with the bosses (except for maybe 2-3). This doesn´t exactly mean that there are a lot of valid options, but rather that some options are just so strong that a lot of people flock to it. That is more or less bad design normally. Which, to be fair can only be seen if you try a lot and multiple times. And probably won´t be an issue in your first run. Pretty much my experience btw. First run was a lot of fun, second and third build kind of frustrated me comparably more than giving me those nice little endorphine shots.
I respect where you're coming from, just like I'm sure you will for me, but yeah to me cheesing bosses the first time through is more rewarding. It's one of the reasons I don't want these games to get an easy mode too, I like working to achieve my own easy mode, and having this perception of "It's the game versus me, and I'll do all I possibly can to cheese the fuck out of it". There's a high sense of joy and smugness in trivializing the games encounters, and it's something that to me only the Souls games really enable. I can then still go in afterwards and do challenge runs to experience the game in a more normal way, and get the joy of overcoming difficulty through my own efforts. But that first playthrough is the only one where I can really feel that sense of childlike joy of completely destroying a game I barely know how to play.
Yeah that playstyle sounds fun assuming you don't look stuff up. I don't really see the point of looking up a "THIS WEAPON + ASH OF WAR COMBO IS OP" video on RUclips and copying that.
Different strokes for different folks. Ive always enjoyed the feeling of getting better by fighting something beyond me, with sekiro as a great example. There is ofc some cheese in sekiro, but most of it extends into "advanced cheese" territory instead of just having an optimized build.
I kinda agree. I would give the same advice: "dont look stuff up". Going in blind is a great way to enjoy the game. But I wouldnt even advice "dont cheese". If they did not look stuff up and found cheeses for bosses, that is a great sense of accomplishment since nobody told them how to achieve that. I love this game and I love that people want to play it
But at the same time the game encourages you to look stuff up through messages and bloodstains left by other players. Even if you don't read them, their positions give away secrets, hidden dangers, cheese spots.
The only thing I might add is: Everyone has their own thresholds for frustration. And everyone has their own thresholds where throwing your body at something just isn't fun anymore. I think the best experience is go in blind and figure it out yourself, but sometimes it just doesn't come. If the game stops being fun for frustration's sake, it's cool to look something up so you can get back to having fun.
I completely agree. Not everyone has unlimited time to replay the same boss or quest. People have kids, jobs, responsibilities. Should they not be able to enjoy the game they paid for? I think they should do whatever they want to make the game fun, since it was their $50 spent. However, I like the idea of working within the games mechanics.
this is very true, i spent the first 1 and a half hours of the game grinding out the tree sentinel fight as wretch, and loved it, spent 5 minutes in the dual crucible knight fight extremely overleveled and spiked my controller for the first time in my life my perspective is that there's a lot of value in fully engaging with good boss design, and bad design is usually better cheesed than not
Completely agree. I play everything blind the first time through but if after a frustrating amount of deaths I still can't kill the boss then I'm looking up a good strategy because it just becomes a chore is no longer fun.
@@chriss4855 My issue is bosses that once felt fresh, by endgame are reused, causing them to feel far less special or unique and rather just tougher mobs you have to deal with.
@@Nirv2267 I use Lattena, she does damage but does not move so that means she won't usually draw a bosses aggro. It's not damage that makes coop and summoning op, it's just the fact that the AI can not handle fighting more than one person.
In most cases, I completely engage with the mechanics of fromsoft bosses, save for the cases in which I think the mechanics are badly designed (e.g. bed of chaos). I have no remorse for cheesing bed of chaos. As for things like summons being cheesing, I think that's a flawed viewpoint because summons were clearly intended to be used on bosses (signs even appear outside the boss arenas in most fromsoft games). To not use summons isn't to do things "the right way" but to incur an additional, self-imposed challenge.
Yep. Why people think that everyone must fight bosses in a harder way to be “legitimate” is beyond me. Take their logic to its extreme, and only level 1, no gear boss kills should count as “legitimate”. It’s a silly and immature attitude.
While I see nothing wrong with summoning, it does let you not engage with the boss' mechanics. Having a boss aggro away from you make it way easier to pull off attacks, especially for a mage. Again, I don't mind people using spirit ashes or summoning. Hell, I've been helping people with Malenia myself.
@@asianfidance2224 Summons can allow you to temporarily disengage, but they're far from an out. I should mention all my summons in previous souls games have been AI, so they aren't anywhere near smart enough to carry. I also summoned the most in DS2, which had the most group boss fights as far as I'm aware.
I still feel that beating a boss with ashes is less satisfactory than beating it on your own. I'm still bad at the game so i keep summoning, but in the end i feel less proud compared to a good fight with a series of dodges, parries and repostes. I also don't have excessive free time to play, so i keep summoning.
Hmm. I take "cheesing" to mean "using exploits." Figuring out infinite comet azur is, I think, a bit different than making demon of hatred jump off the map in Sekiro.
Beating a boss in a completely unintended way, like leading them off a cliff so they instantly die from fall damage, is cheesing in my opinion, NOT using spells and skills that the developers put into the game themselves
@@JordanII. I think that depends if some combos of weapons/items/spells are far more broken then intended, at some point I think that could be said to be cheese. Remember that cheese is not a negative thing
@@adrianeden8977 I kinda think it depends. If you just happen to figure that out for yourself, I think it's great. If, on the other hand, you watched the Tyrannicon video about it or something, then that's probably a cheese (or, at the very least, cheesy; full disclosure, I cheesed the fuck outta that Lone Shadow in the monkey area outside of Ashina...fuck those guys). And this suggests there's something relevant about figuring out the thing for yourself vs. emulating a thing you saw on RUclips or a guide. I think that oughtta be included in our future discussions of cheesing.
6:50 I agree, generally, with the sentiment... However, "Normal" for you is not "Normal" for everyone else. If someone finds, randomly, Tiche and +10's her after a boss fight or two, and seeing how strong she is... Then they use Tiche in every subsequent boss fight because she's efficient in overcoming the challenge... Is that cheese? Are they playing abnormally, even if they had zero knowledge that Tiche is considered a meta spirit ash? There is no "Normal" way to play any souls game beyond "No abusing exploits like boss skips". If someone, playing blindly, comes to the conclusion that using a certain set up is their best bet at victory, then they'll use it. You might say a "Normal" way to play is to NOT use these items, as they make it so you don't "Engage" with boss mechanics, but for this random hypothetical individual the "Normal" way to play is a mage build that sits at the back while summoned players or spirit ashes handle the melee side of things. I do get the point you're making, Rata... But I think Cowboy's remark, while poorly worded, wasn't aimed at players like you. It was aimed at people who genuinely, truly believe that you did not beat a boss if you didn't beat it solo with no ashes and no magic. EDIT: Watched part 2, and he clarifies some things. I'll keep my post here because I'm weird like that, but I do agree with his sentiments, now that they've been cleared up.
I would change the wording so that "Normal" isn't the word used, but "Standard" is. It's pretty "Standard" that people play souls like games as you described unless they are trying to challenge themselves. I always look for what equals less effort for bosses in my gameplay because I don't want to learn patterns and mechanics. There's so many enemies in these games, and I'm unwilling to put this amount of effort into the game. That's me, though. Newer players or more casual players play the games because they're interesting and challenging. That doesn't mean they want to do speed runs or lvl 1 runs in them. The "Standard" player isn't going to learn parry windows to do no hit runs, they're going to use the ridiculous sword they found that shoots a beam or a wave of fire because it's effective and efficient. Just like those death builds people were running for pvp. Those people weren't the regular pvp crowd that does roll catches and bait attacks to get you to swing so they can feel you out. They were randoms that saw an exploit that made you win and used it. TL;DR: Essentially, players are going to use whatever is the most effective.
@@naezjinra You get it. Rata sorta covers this in his second part, basically saying "Play how you want", but adding on that one should do so blindly, if it's their first playthrough. That's logic I can agree with. Makes the discovery of strong weapons, or abilities all the better, aye?
This is my first FS game and I’m slowly working thru it. I started as a melee type and then got super attracted to magic and am now drifting towards a magic/melee hybrid. However, I’m trying to make my magic first and melee almost as a last resort. If I start 3 shotting bosses I’m not gonna feel bad or like I’m cheesing because I am playing it blindly for the most part. I’ve had friends suggest things here and there but otherwise it’s MY play through and I’m adapting as I learn more.
Yeah but if it kills the boss in two seconds and all you had to do was press two buttons then that person will have skipped a part of the intended game. Which is engaging in the bosses mechanics. At least for a little. And that itself has a different meaning to everyone. It just come down to how you feel about that encounter. Did YOU feel like you cheated the game a little bit? Or did you legitimately have a good time for those two whole seconds. And even if you did there would be literally no way to reset time and go back do the boss a different way and then see which one you enjoyed better. Lol cheesing is just a basic term to say you might have gotten more value if you engaged more.
Nah. If a game from a developer that is notorious for making "hard" games is seeming easy and bosses are dying too fast... You're doing it wrong. A game with almost no concrete story and little to no direction is also not supposed to have stupidly easy combat encounters. What would be the point? The point of these games is supposed to be overcoming the challenges and the difficult and complex boss fights. If you remove that, what are you even playinf? A 3rd person MMORPG with a shitty story
This game is really f’n hard at times. I have zero qualms about using all of the tools and combinations of tools at my disposal. Edit: Just so it's clear, I'm still on my first playthrough. I've done pretty much everything, killed Malenia and I've just killed Bernahl in Crumbling Farum Azula. I've been using a nightrider flail with a frost ash for build up, but I use a greatshield / guard counter strategy. No cheese, but I don't mind using my mimic tear.
as Josh from RageGamingvideos puts it "Considering how many BS ways this game punishes you, I will use every advantage at my disposal, regardless of how "OP" it is!"
The only cheesing in Elden Ring is abusing exploits and glitches, I good one to point out right now is the Carian/Thop's WA glitch that can one shot even the toughest bosses. Or the insta-death glitch that was patched out recently.
I don’t necessarily think I’d call cheese things “from software catering to the masses” per se, I like to think of it as them realizing the absolutely ridiculous amount of content and bosses in this game as compared to their other titles. Fighting the same boss 20-50 times because you wanna bare bones it is kinda crazy to do when there’s probably 100+ bosses in the game. I think they just wanted to ensure that you could have a more steady progression and only skip bosses if you truly needed to. Yes the pure blood Souls og’s can probably knock them out in less than 20-50 times, but they are also creative minds that want more people to enjoy their hard work and passion, not rage quit their masterpiece. I’m 160 hours in and at the mountaintop of the giants. I’m a mage and just got mimic ashes like 20 hours ago. I use summons all the time, but spend extra time exploring each area as much as I can now.
I also explore as much as I can. I search every nook and cranny. I also just got to the mountaintops of the giants region, first playthrough, and have 240 hours in the game. I replied to someone else that we need to differentiate between "cheesing" and "easy mode". Cheesing is using exploits to avoid actually engaging enemies. Hitting enemies through a wall, or being just outside their tether range so they continually reset without ever being able to engage the player, for example. Then there are "easy mode" tactics, like the spirit summons, comet azur, etc., where I agree with what you said. I believe FromSoft put these mechanics in the game to help people choose their own difficulty, so to speak. They didn't add difficulties to the game, because people already have control over how difficult their own experience is. For instance, people don't have to use spirits to fight bosses if they don't want to, which results in greater challenge. But spirits are there for those who want to beat the bosses a bit more easily, so they can get back to exploring the game world. A player can use various mechanics in the game to make an encounter or engagement easier, but that's not the same as cheesing. Cheesing is circumventing an encounter, where the enemy literally _can not_ engage the player.
For each person playing these games there's a different way to do it that feels best for them. I've been fighting a certain boss over the course of four days, for a couple hours each evening after work. I fought the 1st phase on my own, and the 2nd phase with Ashen summon. I am certain that I could've beat it on my own all the way through with enough time. But the feeling of accomplishment and pure joy I felt when I finally beat it was absolutely amazing. My roommate heard me shouting and started playing "We are the Champions" when I left my room. And just like I decided to at least beat phase 1 one my own and felt good about my accomplishment, there will be people who found a much easier (cheesier) method, felt like a god while doing it and enjoyed that just as much. Just in a different way. As long as you come out of this game feeling good for having played it, there's nothing wrong about the way you did.
Yea I had to come to terms with myself cus people said I was playing on easy mode cus I mained a mage my first ply through. I’d never played a souls game so sorry if I wanted to start off with an easier play style. But by the time I got to the end game I was getting damn near one shot so it’s really give and take. Some bosses are super easy with a mage and some are almost impossible. Regardless I still enjoyed every minute of my mage build
@@317NEETz Exactly what I'm talking about. As long as you had a good time, it's all good. I think the main point of this video is that some people run the risk of ruining their experience by choosing options that ultimately bore them. Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game, as the quote goes
@@317NEETz mage isnt necessarely easy. I find that str end vig monsters are easier. I often get one shot with my mage but my tank is much more forgiving
This is me with Melania and Margitt, other's were cheesed or I was too overleveled and ended up watching my ash summons fighting them which is to me a fun thing to do.
@Ben Ten I think his issue, that he was addressing in this video, is with people who cheese because they can and therefore think they have to, but ultimately bore themselves in the process and think less of the game as the result. Which is something else entirely than cheesing because you enjoy feeling like a god and having fun doing it.
the problem is that in elden ring, having the best possible experience that we advocate for (not "cheesing" the boss) requires you to intentionally play suboptimally, intentionally handicap yourself. "that build is too busted, bosses become a joke", "this summon is busted", "this spell is busted", etc, but ideally, these things should not be in conflict, the most optimal way to play should also be the most fun & valuable. in elden ring, the optimal path to victory is to pull up to the boss with a busted build, use a summon to draw aggro, and wreck their shit. you can choose not to do this because the "fair fight" is what you're after, but as a player i find this hard to stomach. i want to play optimally and utilize every advantage at my disposal. to make matters worse, the bosses aren't really balanced for mano e mano "fair fights" like in Dark Souls 3, they do insane damage especially in the lategame, because they must accommodate the player's potential access to broken builds. there is no "hey im not using summons or magic i just want to fight with my sword like in Dark Souls 3, can you please rebalance all the bosses" button unfortunately, if you say "no summons, no broken shit," at some point you have to arbitrarily draw a line, i.e. this spell is "too busted" but this one is "within acceptable parameters" based on subjective opinion. so if i have a fundamental problem with elden ring (which i love btw and i still think it might be the GOAT), its that in a way we've lost what sekiro exemplified in its boss fights. where it's purely on you to improve your fundamental knowledge of the game's combat mechanics, and learn the specific boss's moves, in order to win
Yep, and everything you just said is why elden ring is a giant smash success. Don't get me wrong, I love this game, it's probably my favorite in the series. But, I think we are at a tipping point, where, if they continue to push future games into an even more accessible difficulty range, we might lose the "soul" of the souls series. Wouldn't it be a kind of beautifully ironic set of circumstances though? Dark souls, a series all about great kingdoms rotting, enters its golden age with the release of elden ring, only to slowly rot away with worse and worse releases afterward.. It's not the future I want, but damn, it would be poetic. All of us fans would slowly lose hope and become hollow.
@@cabbagedemon5944 yeah man I agree, I just had the thought about dark souls following the path of its own story and thought it was a cool idea. But, I believe that Miyazaki still has plenty of soul left to tend the flame. He'll keep putting out bangers for sure.
i also think it’s because there’s a big mindset on people thinking “Soulsborne is the hardest game series of all time!!!” So once they find out that the game isn’t really that hard, they get upset or smth. So they intentionally use the weakest/least effective build to get the “”””full”””” experience even if that’s not really the case. I cant blame them tho, cuz challenge runs exist for a reason and they’re great. I think al soulsborne players should try an SL1 build at least once. But that doesn’t mean other ways to play the game aren’t viable.
Playing like this is fine. The thing that sucks is having to watch you play like that. I watch elden ring vids as im sure we all do, when i have to see it its really boring to watch youtubers cheese a boss and give a sigh of relief at the end like they actually did something. All the youtubers using katana builds for bleed not cause its their fav weapon, thats also boring to watch. Makes me think i should upload. I use what i like and i fight head on, nobody else making that content they all doing the same thing.
Players always optimize the fun out of anything, myself included. The point isn't that they should make things easier to optimize the fun out of the game but make everything viable so that we're not able to "optimize" the fun out of actually experiencing the game.
Imo cheesing would be something like throwing firebombs over capra demon’s wall or going around Mohg’s bossfog to prevent his ai from doing anything for a free kill, an oversight that clearly isn’t intended by the devs. Nuking a boss with a completely intentional strategy/weapon/spell sure is kinda lacklustre but in isolation isn’t cheese, just a product of questionable balance and design. You wanna argue that some of it is overtuned snd should be toned down to something more reasonable? Sure, infact I agree in many cases (with the sole exceptions being bosses or encounters I hate fighting normally due to being unfun or outright bad or something) to make for more exciting and engaging gameplay, but i don’t really consider it cheese unless it takes advantage if some oversight or exploit in the design, which honestly I guess is kinda what’s already happening with how busted some stuff is currently so moot point
I agree completely I thought the exact same thing! Under Ratatoskr's definition for example it'd be called cheesing to use a Phoenix Down in FF to instakill an undead boss. If your definition of cheesing is to circumvent the boss fight that's fine, but I don't think I had ever heard people use the term for stuff like that. It can get a bit ridiculous too; is sniping Bowser from a safe distance with a fire flower in SMB1 cheesing since you didn't engage with any of his hammer or jumping mechanics?
I agree. Using intended game mechanics isn't cheesing anything. It's more like people who refuse to summon or use spells etc are reverse cheesing lol they are deliberately making the game harder
it boils down to a difference in definition, in my eyes cheese is circumventing the intended design or mechanics of a fight. which in the case of the souls series, i would argue is to learn an enemy's moveset, and beat it by blocking or rolling its attacks, and landing in hits when the timing is right so to me, the things he listed in the video were all cheese, since in using them you don't really need to engage with the mechanics of fighting an enemy. but that's just the way i define it, yknow?
i consider comet azur flask combo, completely cheesing. the mohg bossfog skip, and throwing firebombs over capra's wall, aren't cheesing, they are glitching/cheating. it's the same thing with speedrunners abusing the framskipping, and wrong teleports. thats not cheesing, it's glitching. it's you using errors, or oversights, in the creation of the game, to break the rules the game establishes. i consider cheesing, to essentially be, glitching, without the glitch. comet azur, mimic blood builds, pre-nerf sonaf, i consider those cheesing. i don't care whether other people use them or not, that's up to them, if they enjoy it, good for them. using glitches/exploits, i consider bad faith, as it is, by any metric, literally cheating. those, i consider illegitimate, because they are. comet azur, while cheesing, is a completely legitimate way to kill a boss. which to make clear, that is my defining factor, for cheese, versus cheat. cheesing is using the rules to your advantage, to trivialise, and in some cases, completely avoid, the difficulty/trial, you wish to avoid/trivialise. and i see no issue with it. i personally find it less enjoyable, but like ratatoskr, that's my opinion. cheating/glitching/exploiting, is breaking the rules, or using flaws in the system, to go against the rules, to win. people who use them, and claim to have "accomplished" something, i consider idiots, and liars. speedrunners, within said category, obviously exempted, as the whole purpose of a speedrun, is speed. essentially, if you use the rules of the game to your advantage, you may be cheesing, but some people like to have cheese. but if you break the rules, and go against them to win, well, no one likes a cheater.
When did cheesing turn from exploiting bugs or design oversights to using the games systems as intended and learning strategies? I've seen videos saying "THIS IS HOW YOU CHEESE MELANIA" after I beat her and its literally just "run away when she starts waterfowl, and dodge towards her on her third attack in the string and you *might* survive." Like what? How is that cheesing? As for people having conniptions about the infinite fp flask and comet azure, most late game bosses move around a lot and are typically programmed to dodge or go on the offensive after taking a bit of damage, locking back onto a boss, charging comet azure, and hitting them during the very limited ten second window you've got and doing it *multiple times* during an encounter isn't as busted as it looks. Even if you break their posture most end game bosses have enough health where they'll still be up and kicking the shit out of you during the cast animation while you're rooted to the ground and unable to lock onto them again. Is it strong? Very. Will it win you every fight? Definitely not.
Comet Azur isn’t quite as bad as the Meteorite spell you get from Astel imo. I had to desperately beg my friend to stop casting and then let him die to the final boss without assistance, because in one continuous cast on his first attempt he managed to take out 90% of it’s *boosted* health bar. He thanked me more than once afterwards and it turned out to be his favourite boss fight in the game, but he almost missed it because that one spell was too powerful.
I think a particular strategy being able to take out even *one* boss without them getting a chance to fight back is a problem, one way or another. If it's not the tutorial boss, it should at least have the ability to *function* no matter what you throw at it, barring something utterly ridiculous like a maxed out character going back to stomp an early game boss you missed (and even that shouldn't be *that* bad). Like, I think we can agree that a particular boss just flat out breaking if approached a certain way-just standing there, unresponsive while you whittle away its HP-would be a problem, right? Or if you find a particular spot where you can hit and kill a boss, but it's just incapable of hurting you in return, etc. Or heck, how about a full on bug or design oversight that allows you to skip a boss entirely, like going out of bounds? We all agree that's not how bosses are supposed to work, right? So what difference does it really make if a particular spell, with the right setup, produces basically the same experience? If I can enter a boss arena, kill the boss, and then leave again without having seen a single attack, what does it really matter how I got there? How is that *not* an oversight on the developer's part? Do you really think From *intended* for any number of the bosses to be reduced to punching bags, unable to threaten the player *at all,* with a single spell? And, of course: I'm not saying you can't, or shouldn't, play a particular way. It doesn't affect my experience at all, unless I happen to summon you online or something. But don't get mad at somebody just because they define cheesing as 'stuff which outright breaks the game,' alright? Because that's what he's saying: a boss being unable to respond to the player is broken, which we all seem to agree with, up until our favorite method of bypassing a boss fight gets called into question.
Ratatoskr defines what he considers cheesing pretty clearly: Circumventing the encounter's mechanics by not engaging with them. I consider this a pretty good definition.
Took me a full day to beat melenia. I upgraded probably at least 5 different things and still just had to in a way git good. I ended up finding a weapon that I was most comfortable with for the situation and learned the dance.
There's many ways to play, you can play under leveled with spirit summons and it can become as hard if not harder than playing leveled up with no summons. You can make the game what you want it, the difficulty is up to you and your play style. That's what's so good about this game. Not only is it a large game you can go through a play through completely different each time.
I get your point, but this really isn't true. To make a boss easier, if my options were to double my current levels or use a strong spirit, the spirit would be the clear choice basically every time. The reason is because, against most bosses, the simple act of taking aggro from the boss from time to time eliminates the lion's share the difficulty. What makes bosses in Souls games so challenging is they have this constant pressure (in some form or another) and part of the fight is learning when you can perform certain actions and when you can't. When another body take the distraction, the part that's hard is gone; all, or most, of the challenge on identifying those openings is gone.
@@hexthehardcorecasual who says the summons have to be strong. The choice is yours to choose your difficulty. That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm on neither side of the argument. I am on the side of the fighting amongst people as I personally find people go at each other over meaningless nonsense quite entertaining.
@@Veritech617 The summons have to be strong to lower the difficulty of the game significantly. The spirits are a difficulty slider. The stronger the spirit used, the easier the game. They are the game's difficulty slider in all but name.
@@hexthehardcorecasual Some who play no summon, no ash of war, no buffs other than emblems don't think that's the case, some might say emblems are OP. It's a dance and everything involved really adds up to how difficult the game is. The best thing is, is that you can play at your own pace, or set restrictions for yourself on a playthrough. Somewhere there is a purist who won't ride places or use fast travel. The game is what you make it, but obviously the harder you make it the bigger the accomplishments you make. The choice is yours.
I would say cheesing is something like standing behind a doorway so an enemy cannot hurt or get to you but you can still attack. Using the stats and armaments and items the devs put in the game to take a boss out stupidly quick is not cheesing. It’s just how the player chose to play a game. This is an rpg. If you want to play as a ridiculously strong spellcaster, you can do that.
@@WhiteBoyGamer Weapons and spells get nerfed exclusively because the PvP crowd bitches and moans about them, absolutely nothing to do with the PvE. It's always been like this.
Another thing needs to be mentioned, If u go out of ur way and look up specific cheese/dead angle of bosses then that immediately devalues ur playthrough experience. I dunno how ppl can have fun cheesing if they didnt figure out the exploits or items organically. Maybe they just like the power fantasy and dont appreciate being the underdog overcoming the goliath i guess
@@btchiaintkidding7837 for me, i really don’t like cheesing because it takes away the thrill and the diffuclty that bosses offers. but i am forced to cheese due to lack of time on understanding every move set of every boss. i just pick the boss that i like and fight it square or when i knew that i can’t do it on few hours, i cheese it or use co-op to help me
Completely agree. Cheesing, to me, implies that the game is being played in a way that was not intended by the devs. Using mechanics in the game as they were intended to be used should not be called cheesing imo. The “cheesing is when you avoid engaging with the game’s mechanics” seems necessary but not sufficient for a complete definition of cheesing.
Alot if people dont know what the term "cheese" actually means in the first place, the term is supposed to imply that you took advantage of an unintended exploit in the game. Not just using something that is Meta or OP.
Would you say then that using Hoarfrost Stomp or the Sword of Night and Flame or the Mimic was cheesing? We know them being so good was unintended as FR nerfed it
@@Alquasar Them being nerfed due to being too strong is not cheesing. How is this any different than DS3 weapon adjustments or balance adjustments from other games? Just because you used Aatrox when he had a general WR of 58% with a 10% pickrate doesn't mean you're cheesing the game - you used something that is too strong at that specific time.
Just want to point out that "cheese" can mean many different things. A common meaning is using a brain-dead strategy or OP weapons. I think it came from spamming moves in fighting games.
Yeah I thought the definition he gave was weird. The whole not engaging with the mechanics thing. If I bum rush a hollow and spam him into the ground before he can swing, did I cheese him? I didn’t “engage with his mechanics” but I also “engaged with the mechanic” of stagger so… There’s been bosses that I’ve beaten by putting them down before a certain move or phase change. That was my strat. It was a DPS race. I found a way to burst them down or prayed to RNGesus in order to avoid a move I found to be too difficult to avoid. Is that a legitimate strat? Or did I cheese because I didn’t engage with that particular move when I fought him? I get that the point was mostly referring to beaming the boss with sorcery and not seeing a single thing they did, but it’s still weird
This is a very interesting take. My personal advice would be to not immediately try to rush through every boss fight with cheese, but to also not beat your head against the wall far past the point where you stopped having fun. Engage with the game. And if you get to a point where thay engagement is no longer fun then smash past it however is most convenient.
"It's okay if different people value experiences differently." - Yes, exactly. The only way to "play a Souls game wrong" is if you listen to the kind of people FightingCowboy is mad at, and deny yourself what would be most fun for you in the name of peer pressure. All victories are legitimate, all ways to play are legitimate.
The only caveat I'd give here is that sometimes people don't know what they want. They can optimize the fun out of the game due to compulsively seeking short-term gains. Sometimes it's best that a game forces you into a playstyle that you wouldn't otherwise do or immediately enjoy, because the devs think said playstyle will create the best experience. Sekiro is the best example of this. Since ER doesn't do this, it can be easy to think all styles will be equally rewarding. But I'd argue that cheesing loses a lot of its satisfaction after the novelty wears off.
@@batrachian149 @Batra Chian I can both agree and disagree with you on this. In ER, you're meant to play your way, and that's the intended experience. It's true that maybe overleveling your character, or doing a busted arcane build with Swarm of Flies spam and a Mimic Tear may not end up being equally rewarding as a "standard" experience. You won't get to interact with the game in the same way, because you won't be forced to. You won't have to learn all the mechanics, if you can overpower everything with minimal effort. However, for some people, the OP experience may be more valuable, than the "god gamer perserverence" souls community preaches. In the end its just a video game, a role playing game. Some people want to feel like a god or a force of nature to roleplay something that befits the title of Elden Lord, and that fantasy is more valuable than wrangling with the game "the right way".
I'd argue that there's value in finding OP or cheese startegies on your own. My first run was with a mage and I found Comet Azur on my own. I dedicated all my level ups to being able to cast it and felt such a joy to finally use it and see my character become more powerful destroying bosses. I agree that looking up builds on YT for your first run is just ruining the experience.
This! In single player, many gamers enjoy finding min-max strategies on their own and seeing it play out as planned. And the replay value comes out of finding new overpowered mechanics. I believe FS really understands this. "Cheating" or "cheesing" for me personally is, if I just look these overpowered things up, and don't find them myself. I do however like to check within the community afterwards!, if the thing I found is rather unique or very obvious. And if it's too easy or obvious to find i tend to drop it after two bosses and look for something new.
This is my biggest point and only thing I really disagree with Ratatoskr on. I don't think making a powerful mage build, and using the best spells is cheesing it. Sure some bosses might be easier to deal with, but others won't be. Just like if someone runs a pure bleed build and has an easy time with Malenia since she's really weak to it, I wouldn't say they cheesed it either. I can absolutely see the argument because some bosses get stunlocked thru the infinite FP flask+comet azure, but those are just widely available for anyone to use and if certain bosses are easy because you are a mage build, that's fine. Some bosses are undoubtedly harder and in general exploring the world is harder when you are resource bound, vs just Greatsword poking everything to death with 15 healing flasks at your disposal. Other than that, I agree with mostly everything else he said, although I personally don't have anything against looking up ways to beat bosses. Cheesing in my definition is going out of your way to break AI or abuse unintended mechanics to kill something. Making a boss fall to their death, or get stuck indefinitely is cheesing it. Using spirit summons or even summoning a friend and having them tank it with a great shield or something, is not cheesing it in the least. If you look up a way to dodge a certain attack by a boss or something like that, I don't think you are cheesing it. I do think the Carian Retaliation bug is cheesing it because, using common sense, there is no way FROMSOFT intended the spell parry to do like 3K damage off your own spells. On a +0 shield it does 500 damage, and I'm pretty sure they intended it to not scale with weapon upgrades at all since literally no ash of war does 500 damage at +0. At best I can imagine it doing damage based on the damage you would've received, but that's not how it works even now.
Same here but different, as soon as I found the fingerprint greatsheild I knew I got something good, i fully upgraded it, paired it with the greatsheild talisman and a good spear and found it quite efficient, yet most people consider it a cheese because the free blocking is so good against most bosses and hard to counter in pvp.
@@GriFFonRec4 i mean tbh if you can't figure out a boss on your own, maybe come back later with more levels. but i find it absurd that you'd look it up online
Even telling people how to play by only going in blind is a bit of gatekeeping. People enjoy games in different ways. If they see some weird, off-beat build that makes them want to play the game that way more power to them.
"cheese" is an impossible thing to define. on my first playthrough i used the bleeding flail, didn't look anything up, and just played the game through. a lot of enemies and bosses are so weak to blood loss that i killed bosses in 15-20 seconds without seeing most of the bosses attacks. i went to all of the weapon upgrade caves so my weapon was always at a good level and just spammed light attacks. about 20-ish hours into the game i found the magic whetstone that allows you to put frost on your weapon. i went from having an easy time with bosses to completely demolishing all endgame bosses without dying. would some people call that cheese and that's not the intended way of beating the boss? yeah sure, but that's just the weapon i picked up and beat the game with. personally, i think cheesing is doing something so unintended like clipping through walls, glitching past boss arenas, and bugging out bosses so they never aggro or move. no normal player is ever going to find these kinds of cheese without looking it up or one in a million occurances.
I don't see why awareness is necessary for it to be cheesing. Okay, so you didn't know bleed was so strong when you decided you liked the flail. So? It is what it is whether you knew it or not. Cheese doesn't turn to milk or yogurt when you can't see it. It's still cheese
@@castanzofranzman2013 but here's the question. Does cheese equate to illegitimacy? No. It just equates to a different game experience? Which was you know, the entire point of this video. It's up to the player as to what types of experience they prefer really. Idk why we're re arguing the points already made in the video lol. Mr fluffy wolf isn't wrong to say the flail is cheese, but they didn't state that said cheese rendered voledae's game experience invalid or illegitimate. It just garners each of them a different experience of the game. Fluffy probably spent more time understanding boss mechanics and telegraphs for punishes while voledae used the bleed flail (eventually implementing frost) to out damage most bosses before their mechanics became a problem for them. Does this mean either experience is more valuable? Well that depends on your perspective really, but all he's saying is that Voledae unintentionally discovered and used a cheesy mechanic in the game. Which is true. But it doesn't mean that voledae's experience is rendered illegitimate in any way it just gave him a different experience in completing the game that Fluffy *perhaps* values less so on a personal level.
Pretty much this, if someone's natural playthrough leads them to what could be considered 'cheese' i dont think that devalues the experience or their enjoyment. If anything discovering something that may be cheese on your own can be quite enjoyable in itself. I agree that the best experience playing through for the first time is blind, but if that blind playthrough leads you to strategies that others call 'illegitimate' i dont think that's a fair call. Also - If i see a tough enemy near an elevator, the first thing im doing is trying to get him to fall in - thats why the elevators are there after all.
I have had 4 friends played elden ring, 2 of them cheesed every encounter they could and looked up all the guides possible before hand, 1 of them looked up minor stuff such as upgrade materials and 1 went in completely blind. The 2 that cheesed everything have not finished the game, both quit after Radahn, they said that they knew all the stuff that was coming from video's (one even watched all endings) and have had 0 motivation to play whatsoever. The one who looked up minor things has fallen in love with the game completely, but has regretted looking up things since he felt like the surprise of his playthrough was ruined and he killed the bosses too easily. The last one is on his third playthrough, still finding new things, still enjoying himself. I did the same as well, going in blind, and have never had a more satisfying gaming experience. Of course this is just personal bias, but I think that if all my friends played the game blind from the start they would have all fallen in love with the game completely.
TRUTH. The only time I look things up is when I feel I’ve forgotten something, or to help keep track of an npc questline. Sort of like “keeping the ball rolling”
@@captncuddlybear9404 yeah, it sucks that I already knew what the 2nd phase of the god eating serpent was. Still an epic fight, but I’d have definitely enjoyed the surprise
This is a weird anecdote. Your friends lost interest in the game because they looked stuff up, not because they cheesed. It’s weird and hardly relevant to mention. Plus it feels like you’re implying you can’t find cheese entirely on accident.
As far as the “intended experience” goes in this game… i actually feel that those of you who ignored the spirit ashes entirely have kinda missed out. I mean, if you don’t use them your first time through, when will you use them, AFTER you’ve figured out how to level 1 the game? Not likely, and unless you engage with that system you might miss the sweet father/daughter relationship that blooms with Hewg and Roderika. I mean, if they tied an npc storyline to using the things, clearly they want everyone to use them, not just new players. edit: well jeez... this kinda blew up. i think some people misunderstood me. you don’t have to use these to see the story between these two, but you are just unlikely to see it if you never interact with roderika after getting her setup (it’s kinda hard to miss doing that). my point was to at least TRY the new mechanic, if you don’t like it, fine. but to just ignore it outright seems like a bit of a loss for me. (also, there are a few small quests in the game that require your spirits...)
I agree. I think people are just struggling with the idea that this game might be easier than previous games. They didn't simply fail to notice that every build is OP except the ones where you intentionally avoid using tools you could easily use. If using the stuff the game throws at you and exploring the areas visible on your map makes you overpowered then basically the game is just easier.
The thing is there's a big difference between not using them for bosses and not using them at all. You can use summons to deal with large groups of enemies and stuff like that while still solo-ing bosses. And to me that makes sense. Summons make dealing with ganks more manageable. But in a 1 on 1 boss fight, summons just break the boss AI. That's the thing. Bosses are mostly not equipped to deal with multiple targets (unless it's a gank boss).
@@MarkHogan994 The fact that spirit summoning enabled areas are hand placed means they had to know you'd use them there...because they put one there for you.
I did the quest line, didn’t use summons until ng+ (and melania because I didn’t enjoy her, but I at least tried without first until I found out she had a full health bar second phase). No regrets.
Already did spirit summons felt way more crappy then my current no summons and every enemy fell was my own work not some ai with the ability to carry me if you want to use ai more power to you but could most of the people stop having bosses nerfed radahn feels like a cake walk now the falling star beast used to be a tank now i just breeze through him game just feels like its losing the challenge it should hold
4:40 So, the question is then, does the Hidden Cerulean Tear exist within that narrow band? I suspect there are things that they haven't patched yet, that they intend to patch, but I think it's worth noting that they _buffed_ sorcery in the balance patch, specifically by reducing the FP cost of many spells, and even raising the damage on some spells. If they were looking at sorcery, why didn't they do something about this combination, unless they thought it was a problem in some way? It seems too obvious not to reach the conclusion that that is how it would be used. In fact, the Hidden Cerulean Tear's overall design _suggests_ that exact usage, a short-burst channel of high-damage spells. Otherwise, what other function could it possibly have that isn't outshined by literally any other option you could have in your flask? I actually think that certain things like that combination are at the core of their design philosophy. In the original Dark Souls, a fully upgraded pyro flame, bellowing dragoncrest ring, crown of dusk, and power within, would mean you could two-shot Gwyn with great chaos fireball, because he's already very weak to GCFB, really, fire damage in general. If I exploit that particular weakness of the boss in that way, am I not making use of the game's mechanics, and one of _his_ mechanics specifically, tuning my build to exploit one of his vulnerabilities? If that is cheese, or, if that is cheese and cheese is not part of From Software's intended design, then I also have to ask about _parrying_ Gwyn, because most seem to view parrying Gwyn as the 'cheese strat' for beating him, yet even now, I suspect few would call it cheese, or call it cheese in comparison to CA and infinite FP. A large part of the fun of these games, a large part of playing these games, seems to be figuring out how the mechanics, broadly, actually function, and finding ways to make those mechanics work for you to solve the problems you come across, and those solutions aren't always obvious. . . even in the case of CA and infinite FP, that is a poor option for quite a few bosses. It's great against medium/largish bosses that are vulnerable to hit-stun, like Mohg, but don't even try it against humanoid bosses who jump around a lot, like Malenia. Is it still cheese if you found an optimal strategy _because_ you learned a boss's mechanics, including their strengths and weaknesses, as opposed to just their moveset and timings? One of my earliest kills on Godrick, was me doing a few 'dry runs' to test what elements he was most vulnerable too. As it turns out, it basically didn't matter because he didn't have any significant vulnerabilities, and had one big strong resistance, so I just went with the highest damage-per-second-per-cast-per-FP incantations, and sure enough, on my 'serious' run, I thrashed him. Did I cheese him because I stood back and blasted him? If that _is_ cheesing, then are we making any kind of meaningful distinction with how we're using that word, or is it just starting to turn into 'any time you stand some distance from the boss and blast them with high-damage ranged attacks?' Bosses have weaknesses, and I'm disinclined to say that finding the strongest means of exploiting those weaknesses is necessarily circumventing or not engaging with the mechanics of the boss, at least, not in a way that isn't intended, or considered. It's not going to be often that sorcerer builds, for example, are going to stagger bosses. They're also not going to be making use of spacing or unlocking and attacking to target specific vital or weak areas, typically. On the other hand, some melee builds might have a very difficult time indeed targeting vulnerable spots that ranged characters can easily attack. A melee character might also not be as well-equipped to take advantages of other mechanics, like certain enemies' severe aversion to fire. Interesting point and interesting video, so far.
I agree with this completely. At what point is ‘cheese’ a subjective term used by players to say ‘you didn’t do it my way and I’m going to act like I’m above for you for it.’ Something like 1/3 of the starting classes in the game are spells/incantation based. Look at the enormous variety of magic/weapon arts from soft had to personally design. To call those play styles less valuable is cringey and ego driven.
Spot on about the hidden cerulean tear. Soulsborne games have almost always included small “cheese potential” in their games which can be used to almost break enemy encounters, almost by design. There’s no other reason to use the tear unless you use a spell which takes up a lot of fp, and as such will deal huge amounts of damage (for an exceedingly large fp cost). Notable examples in DS1 are using plunge attack on taurus demon, the stairs in capra demon, or letting ceaseless discharge fall off the cliff. In DS2 you could change the arena itself for many bosses, there’s a lot of examples for further games too. I think the reason why so many people get upset about this tho, or specifically intentional game design to make a boss easier (sometimes almost pitifully), is that they didn’t have either the resources or analytical skill to find out the easier way to beat them. Finding out that you can essentially one-shot ceaseless discharge would be very frustrating for someone who had to spend multiple tries on him. So to justify that, they probably think “well my way was legit, the other way was clearly not intentional”, even if it obviously was. And yeah, that’s exactly right about the mastery of the games mechanics. I always thought of the soulsborne series as overcoming frustrating controls, confusing status screens and overwhelming item descriptions, and using the one or two occasional things to vastly help out your fight. If you take the time to read each item description, even if most of them seem useless to you, there will definitely be one which, using other knowledge of the games mechanics, can make fights much easier. That in itself is essentially you beating, or outsmarting, the boss. The feeling of discovering an intentional mechanic to make a boss easier is almost the same as solving a difficult puzzle. You take the time to analyze each section, and once you find a connection between 2 seemingly unrelated mechanics then you can start to solve the puzzle.
They "buffed" certain sorceries because it just made 0 sense to cast them when pebble exists. Fromsoftware making other sorceries viable doesn't mean they condone you blowing up a boss with infinite FP comet azur and claiming you beat it.
@@CTStyles31 That’s a ridiculous statement… we all know the reason why Fromsoft released that patch was because of the popular meta at the time, which is why things like SONAF, Moonveil, and hoarfrost stomp were nerfed. By that time the azur comet was really popular because it was relatively easy to perform. If they really thought it was broken they would’ve either nerfed the hidden tear or azur comet. Also how does that even make sense?? Why would fromsoft not “condone” you using the mechanics to the best of their ability? That’s like saying they wouldn’t condone you beating a boss on the first try, because of some bs reason like “oh you just got lucky” or “oh you just roll spammed”. It’s not good to project your opinions onto a corporation lol…
Nice analysis here. I think what's going on in the "talking past each other" debates, is that people have a hard time identifying what *their own values* are, and seeing those as coexisting with other peoples' values, which may be different. Those that explicitly gatekeep via the "legitimate skill" angle, have a bias toward mastery and challenge. Those that are totally okay cheesing a boss may instead value the type of "fun" that resourcefulness, exploits, and Doing Big Numbers provides for them. Magic the Gathering's game designers know this (see: Timmy, Johnny, Spike player archetypes). You can't force a cheese-lover into a combat-master if their values aren't there. Framing your encouragement of learning a boss first (no cheese) as advice to help someone enjoy the game even more is good - but that context of values is necessary. Some people just want the big numbers, and if that's the optimum experience for them, at least we're still all having fun.
And this is all the more true for an rpg, especially an action jrpg at that which boasted being "even more rpg than any other rpg we made before" People like what they like, as long as they aren't playing in a way they don't like, then all's fair, even what isn't fair still is as that's a responsibility of the devs not of the players(if you think the game is unbalanced, complain to from/bandai, don't go around bashing people who use more efficient strats and cheeses) Now if they are NOT enjoying the game though m that's a different story, and that's when one should come in say "but did you know you can do this? Or have you tried instead doing that?" As often people don't even know what they actually like, for example, how often i've seen dex people never even try using a big highly-staggering weapon because they THOUGHT they didn't like being slow, and then suddenly become tank mains the moment they give it a proper try...
@@Braindouchedotnet sure sure. I see people fighting the Glintstone Dragon and I’m like “...why??” I just sneaked up behind him, grabbed the Glintstone Key then rode off 😂 don’t think he even woke up!!
It has so much replay value, even if you explored the whole map once. Everytime when i start a new character i am excited about where i go first, wich weapon i get first and what i end up with. I like this freedom! Can't wait for the first randomizer mods.
And sometimes one side is flatly wrong. I will bet my *house* that at some point in development FromSoftware had a meeting, probably with Bandai, and their marketing people asked essentially how they could "cater to the masses" to generate higher sales, and they discussed the idea of a mechanic you could only use during the most difficult content that would make it considerably easier to clear. Although we can never prove it without the devs admitting it down the road, it's still an objective fact that Elden Ring's difficulty was downplayed, or at least made more modular so the player could have an easy mode without calling it "easy mode". And it absolutely started in a board room discussion centered around how they could be "cater to the masses". Not even the most gullible can deny this, only the willfully ignorant can.
The problem is with the definitions of what “cheese” is. I see people saying that using easy tactics or high reward low risk tactics is also considered cheesing. But I don’t personally agree with that. And that’s the issue. If we can’t agree on ALL parts of a definitions, the only way to have a common ground for discussion is setting a more objective definition. At least from what I’ve seen only, almost everyone considers using exploits or bugs or unintended interactions “cheesing”. Anything past this gets too subjective to have a proper debate over, since what you feel is “easy and low risk” might not be the same for someone else. Or it might not even work in some situations, eg bossfights with phase transitions, or bossfights with multiple opponents, or bossfights with very fast bosses that like to rush you. These are very difficult to pull off the azure combo in and require multiple attemps to get the timing and AI behaviour right.
Yeah I always viewed cheesing as using unintended ways to beat bosses that aren't necessarily cheating like glitches, exploits or aggro an enemy and retreating to a point they can't attack you type of thing. Not intended game mechanics being used to win a fight. Like being over-leveled and not allowing a boss to get a move in I personally wouldn't consider cheesing.
Ds2 dragonrider fight is the perfect example for cheese, why would anyone not cheese him after they figure out you can bait him off the arena? He isnt even a unique boss.
Very good point. While watching this video I was at one point saying to the screen "But that's not what cheesing is." I am firmly in the camp of if it's not a bug/exploit its not cheesing. It feels weird to say we need to discuss semantics before discussing our video games but, sometimes we kinda do.
I would say your definition of cheesing is incorrect, cheesing is to go out your way to do things that the developers did not intend. Examples for this would be jumping over the wall for the Mohg fight stopping his Ai from starting, Killing Capra in DS1 with firebombs over the boss wall, killing Big Ornstein by making him clip out of the arena and fall to his death, Poop walking to stop boss Ai activating etc. Another name for cheesing is exploiting, but it is only generally referred to this when it comes to using cheese in a PVP environment. Using things the developer intended the players to use thus cannot be cheese, they are simply efficient tactics available to the player, whether you want to argue they trivialize the game is another matter. Personally, I think FromSoft have done a fantastic job of tailoring the difficulty experience for this game, There are so many tools available to the player, they can choose to engage with many or as little aspects they want to have the difficulty experience they want from the game.
Exploits/glitches are not necesarily the same as cheesing in my book. Bringing a friend RL300 to give you a+10 sword of night and flame and 500k runes at level 1 would not be cheesy by your definition. Even worse, creating a twink (a twink is a low level char with end game gear a friend gave you) to abuse low level players in PVP would not be cheesing as well just an "efficient way to play" . Cheesers are making a huge deal about this topic because they are insecure about their playstyle.
Stray demon can get caught in a loop where he just smacks the ground with his staff over and over. With a bleed weapon you can easily beat him at 1st level. That's an example of Ratatoskr's definition of cheese
I think it’s great that Fromsoftware made this game more approachable. Did I melt commander Niall with comet azur? Hell yeah I did. Would I have been able to progress a story I’m obsessed with in a world I love if I hadn’t? Probably not. Im not a great player, but I love the world and the immersion - I need RUclips guides and cheese spells like comet to help me progress, and I don’t feel bad about it. Im still the Elden Lord.
…. I hope you misspelled Commander O’Neill , lol because I just spent my night beating him in the middle of a rot lake and the fact that there is another version of him terrifies me!
@@anthonyfluck620 niall can be afflicted with scarlet rot, so if you keep aeonian butterflies you can make a couple pots and chuck them at him, then you just have to survive.
I beat Malenia using Azur and the infinite MP flask. It seemed like an obvious solution the moment I saw how immobile she was in her second phase. Only after I won did I find out that people online considered it cheesing, but in the moment, I had felt intelligent for figuring out a simple way to beat it. I had never looked up a strategy video outlining the strat prior to using it, and who is to say that figuring out an easy way to do something is not proper gameplay? So was I cheesing or just using the tools the game provided? It seems ridiculous to me to not use spirit ashes or certain moves when From programmed these things into the game. Finding the Ashes in the game and trying them out and seeing what they did was something that felt rewarding as I explored the world. If I had subscribed to the idea that using Ashes is cheating then all those dungeons where the reward was a cool Spirit Ash would basically be a dungeon with no reward. As someone who has played a lot of fighting games, the people complaining about people cheesing sound just like the fighting game scrubs who will try to downplay your win by saying you were using a top tier or spamming moves that they have a personal issue with. The only thing I consider cheese in this game right now is setting up Carian Retaliation in PvP as winning any PvP encounter without having to interact with your opponent does not seem like it is in the spirit of From's design. Otherwise, I don't really care how someone kills a computer, and I see most of the people that do are doing so because they want to feel like they are somehow special for placing self imposed restrictions on themselves. I don't often see the people who do No Hit runs telling other players that they aren't true gamers because they can't go through the game without getting hit, and I think that that's because the people who do No Hit runs understand that the reward they get from doing so is intrinsic to them and how they like to play, and also that they are probably secure enough in themselves that they don't need to do that to feel like they are better than others.
"Only after I won did I find out that people online considered it cheesing, but in the moment, I had felt intelligent for figuring out a simple way to beat it" This is an important thing I think people often forget. Not everything is based around active skill. Knowledge and planning go into things as well. Now looking up strategies and stuff can devalue this, but your experience in the fight is just as valid as someone who, through pure skill, no hit her. You used your knowledge of the fight and the game to come up with a plan to beat the fight, even if your fight required less reflexive skill it is still just as valid.
If you felt totally happy with that then yeah don't let other people take it away from you, especially since you found out yourself. Personally she was one of the few late game fights that I felt was fun enough to bash my head against a wall for hours without a mimic. The others I just got frustrated and used a summon after a while trying which did make me feel a bit ehh tbh.
I remember that i struggled through her first phase using the blastphamous blade, but on her second phase i killed her after the second try due to how immobile she was, thr difference in difficulty between different builds is a lot more than other games and that leads salty retards who dont like switching weapons cry about how good they were for beating the boss with an equally strong weapon that wasn’t optimal lol
Aside from specific gates in Sekiro, FromSoftware games have always given you two paths: play better or prepare more. You can chip away at the Taurus Demon or you can look for a ladder. You can wait for moonlight butterfly to land or you can come in with some firebombs. You can nail the Orphan of Kos perfectly one time, or you can dive into Fetid Rotten Cursed Chalices so that the gems there give you a little wiggle room so you don't have to be perfect. The caveat I have is, in previous games this was a byproduct of effort; of grinding. In Elden Ring, the devs wanted to reward exploration. The only people I have a little sadness for are the ones b-lining to a collection of gamebreaking items using wikis and reddit guides, when they haven't done a normal playthrough and just found the items before by wandering around. I don't even mind folks looking up dungeon locations. I've definitely done it for completionist sake. But don't go looking outside the game for a way to break a game that you don't even know yet. Reward yourself with transcendence by being so familiar with this world that you figure it out for yourself.
"Engaging with mechanics" is a pretty weird place to draw the line on what is and isn't considered "cheesing". There are plenty of mechanics that can be easily avoided or entirely nullified with certain builds and playstyles.
Elden Ring especially has about 12 ways to skin a cat. Bloodborne and DS3 only really has summoning. Sekiro is basically git gud. Demons Souls you could just simply use magic
If he doesn't want people to label him as a loser and a gatekeeper then maybe he shouldn't label broad play-styles and strategies with a negative connotation such as "cheese" - what a hypocrite. Should I have respec'd my build to katana and dex when I fought the Crystalian bosses? 'Coz I was playing great hammers for my playthrough and those bosses couldn't do jack shit against my build and according to this youtuber - that's cheesing.
Cheesing is engaging with mechanics that are low risk high reward. Cheesing wouldn't be a problem if there were no PVP and also if people didn't use this game as a "gotgut badge". There are serious flaws in this game people just claim to be features. Like the extended buffer for inputs, the dodge on release and delayed sprint cause they share the same key... The mechanics are set in a way dodgespam cheese is basically easy mode while everything else is triple the effort for half the rewards.
I like the video, arguments well made! I think I totally agree. Generally I think you should avoid cheesing bosses, but I would say that if you discover an overpowered tactic yourself, there is a satisfaction towards using the thing you discovered, even if it is cheesy.
Do you think the inverse is true, that if "you only have underpowered tactics", that you should seek help? I feel like I have a lot of patience for it, but I don't want to beat my face at a boss for many hours.
I was about the say the exact same thing. I'm sure this isn't the right way to say it, but there's a difference between being inventive, and blindlessly following the creator. One made the effort to discover, or was lucky enough. The other simply followed, without having the full grasp of things, and then proclaim this is the way to play. I do commend thought the ones that takes the concept and bring it to a higher level, optimising it. THAT, is contributing
@@Venoseth If you can't beat a boss after many hours then it means you're mechanically unskilled. Or the boss is broken in which case pretty much no can beat it. If you're unskilled it'd be far more rewarding to improve instead of finding the most overpowered weapon
@@Artaxerxes. ya, but they can play more and get better and maybe attempt those bosses in a more challenging way on another playthrough. Souls games always had some way to cheese bosses. People choose not to do it that way because it's not as fun.
@@Artaxerxes. i’d counter that it’s less being unskilled as in time anyone can beat any boss. But of course, some people may not have the patience to learn if it may take them many hours to do so. Using tactics to make the fight easier like summoning or bleed spam a la swarm of flies and rivers of blood is also legitimate in this sense. Sometimes, people just want to put a boss behind them to continue. And that’s okay. (Note: I personally never summon for the tough ones, but my best friend has little to no time nowadays with a busy work schedule and isn’t as “skilled” in souls games as me and this is their feedback.
I 100 agree with Fighting Cowboy. Sorry. I've never heard someone tell me when a I'm using a hammer to pound in a nail that I'm "cheesing" the experience. Imo, "cheesing" is doing something like getting an enemy stuck in terrain or otherwise exploiting the game in a way where there is literally zero risk. Even if you use a tool given to you by the devs that might make an encounter more trivial there is still some amount of risk.
Using a hammer to pound in a nail is just using the right tool for the job though? cheesing can be making something ridiculously easy by using much stronger, much less skillful tactics etc. At the end of the day, you can play how you want, but I think it will be cheesing a boss if you do things like that - it's hard to make a better comparison with something as small as hammering a nail in tho imo
As a long time Destiny player, I am well acquainted with cheese. Cheesing is standing outside of a fog gate shooting a boss with arrows. Using gameplay mechanics isn’t cheese, it may be abusing an overtuned combo-Ie comet azure inf. Fp. Most of this isn’t real cheese, souls games have always given us crap to blow up boss ho bars. Imo calling it cheese isn’t solving the problem, but adding to it.
Personally I'd say "cheesing" means doing something that you're not supposed to be able to do. Something unintended, like a glitch or purposefully making the boss get stuck in terrain so it won't move. I don't think using any of the game's intended mechanics should be considered "cheese".
yes, cheesing is like using dung pies from outside the door to kill capra demon in DS1. Using the game mechanics isn't cheesing its called playing the game, it is beating the game "organically".
Edit : The gentlemen below helped explain the meaning and understanding I am trying to explain as well. End of Edit: Ah. I understand you. I saw people defeating Radahn, using gravity... Making him fall. Same goes with the Fire Giant. Making it trip over itself and fall... I do find that disgusting but it isn't their fault if the game is designed flawed in that way. If you do this on your first try, you lost value (experiences) as stated in this video. You missed out on mechanics and gameplay and the spectacle of the boss.1 If you skip Radahn like that, you missed out on the Meteor Attack. If you skip the Fire Giant, you can't see the Volcano Eruption attack. So you'd lose value as well.
@@Asriel_Cypher You are equating "value" to "experience." You miss out on *experiences* when you cheese a boss. How much value comes from each experience is up to the individual to decide. You can't claim that people "lost value" because you don't know what they value. *THAT* is the crux of the argument: an experience does not have intrinsic value. Each and every experience is subjective. There is no value to be lost or gained from an experience unless the individual views things that way. Any outsider perspective is pre-judging the situation based on their own biases. Calling the "loss of an experience" as the "loss of value" is conflating two different ideas to cover for prejudice.
people might call it cheesing, but the second I found the cook book that makes poison darts they became my go-to strategy for just about everything, and I love it. so many times I would be fighting a boss and about to get smushed, thinking "oh shit, oh shit, not again" when that last tick of poison just barely takes them out and that feeling of victory is just like "WOOOH!
Sounds like me and the ole’ rotten stray. I’ll engage the boss long enough to draw their agro, while rot doggie bites them and inflicts rot. Once that takes hold, it’s then a waiting / dodging game.
I was literally able to beat Godrick on my first try with scarlet rot lol. I remember some dude telling me "You just ruined your playthrough", and the utter confusion on my part getting a response like that. Like bruh, you're telling me the devs gave players a tool they can use which ruins their own game, that certain bosses are weak to lol. Also, here's I look at it. The world of these games are supposed to be shitty and unfair to someone in it. So with that in mind, it's inevitable that it's going to cause players to be shitty and unfair to the enemies back.
You know, I've been thinking about this subject for the last few weeks as well, cheesemongers versus gitgudgang, and I've come to very different perspective on the whole thing. To me, one of the biggest distinguishing features of a souls game is the lack of rules and limitations on player choice: all that isn't strictly forbidden is permitted, and very little is strictly forbidden. At the heart of these games are a lot of sandbox and immersive sim dynamics, and I think Elden Ring is the apotheosis of this tendency. What I find really interesting is that when the gitgudgang gets wound up, what they're literally saying is that the game doesn't have enough rules and limitations on how you play and then proceeds to make some up and try to convince people around them that they should hop on board. (which, i hasten to add, is very different from Ratatoskr's suggesting "don't be too clever, just hit the monster with the axe and fun will happen". ) I think this is a *fascinating* dynamic at play, that there's a large cohort of people who not only embrace this game difficulty-first but also are craving a more curated experience so hard they will invent one out of whole cloth and insist it's been there the entire time. It's more than just "git gud", it's an unexamined expression of our expectations of what games should be, what these games are, what the nature of gamer entitlement is, and what happens when those expectations are implicitly violated. (And I really really want to see a conversation started around this subject!)
I think the problem just comes up when people try to impose their personal value system or ideas about how to enjoy the game on other people. Like, I'm one of those people who prefers to "git gud" and challenge bosses without relying on any additional mechanics outside of the base ones, but I think it'd be silly and foolish for me to assume that that's right for everyone. It's how I enjoy playing these games, and the reason why Sekiro is by far my favorite Souls game, because it's the one with the most clearly curated challenge, there was only one way to play through that game, and that allowed them to really refine the challenge to a razor sharp point. But we're not all the same and it's perfectly fine for anyone to enjoy themselves any way they see fit without any need to justify it to others. The "gid gud" folks who try to push their mentality around playing the game on others as if it's the only "true" way to play the games is either working off the false assumption (if we are to assume their motivations are pure) that their way is the best way for everyone to get a good experience and want to make sure others get that optimal experience, or they feel insecure and feel the need to justify their own mentality around the game by putting down others who don't conform to it. That's my take anyway. Just have fun and play how you want at the end of the day. It is a game, after all. People just take it a bit too seriously sometimes.
Agreed 100%. These games are RPGs and we shouldn't forget about the R in RPG. Some people wanna roleplay a Wretch, some a Samurai, some a Mage Knight, etc. Some characters will be OP, some will struggle. Hell, the whole point of archetypes, even just the basic Warrior, Mage and Rogue is to experience the same world in different ways. And even though a Mage and a Rogue can both be glass cannons, the _flavor_ is completely different. That's why so many people are into Fashion Souls and why cosmetics sell _better_ than hot cakes in online games. Flavor matters. Some of us want to be the sneaky, underhanded bandit, some want to be the valiant paladin and some want to bend reality and nature's laws to their will. All valid ways to play the game and experience its world.
Good thing you can play the game however you want, so you literally chose how hard it will be. You are a gitgudder? Just use a sword, upgrade a bit the strength and you are good to go, beat every boss with pure melee skill. You wanna be a cheeser? Invest in inteligence/faith or in bleed. You want cool powers but also want melee power? Make a hybrid build let's say strength/faith. This game is so cool because you chose what you want to be and how you want to play the game, and the game enourmously changes depending on your decisions. It is beautiful.
I think one aspect you are not considering is that this game is part of a Franchise built by all the previous souls like games that have come before. The Git Gudders built their culture based off of their shared experiences from the previous games. The Git Gudders are the core fanbase that have supported FromSoft for a very long time. Imagine if you will the anime Gintama. There is a popstar that is extremely popular, but the people that had a very large hand in making her famous were the core otaku fanbase who do things any "normal" person would be embarassed to do in real life at these concerts. The GitGudders are similar. In the grand scheme of things their monetary contributions are basically nothing now. But back then, they kept the community alive and sometimes growing. They gave money to Fromsoft in a time where every dollar mattered more. One could argue that the GitGudders are largely a western group. But even then their roots go back to the original japanese gitgid fanbase. There is a sense of ownership of what the game is and the experience it should give the players. It is an aspect that Miyazaki himself recognized when he thanked the fans and defended the "shared suffering" aspect of the difficulty of the game. This sort of thinking is the same reason why Fans of long running franchises get angry every single time a post modern corporation takes a franchise like Star Wars or Star Trek and "reimagines" it while sliding in ill fitting woke ideology to replace and colonize the portions they removed as an insult to injury of the poor writing and lack of respect to the franchise as a whole.
I really wonder how DS1 would have been perceived had the rerelease of the game not been called the, “Prepare to Die” edition. People really get an ego boost from beating a game that seems to doubt them from the very beginning, so I suppose if others can do it with little to no difficulty, it feels as if delegitimizes one’s own victories putting a scratch on that Soul’s veteran badge of honor. That’s one theory. I can personally attest that beating bosses in certain ways makes them boring and forgettable. During my first playthrough, I unwittingly skipped the Weeping Peninsula and didn’t check it out until I was on the Atlus Plateau. Everything was a breeze and I’m certain I missed some important things.
If we want to have a conversation about "Does using these items cheapen your experience?" that seems like a better foundation for this conversation. It feels like most of the hardcore fans of the series, are really meaning to ask this question but get stuck on the word cheese instead. Cheese is not using things in an intended way (imo I guess).
I thought "cheese" actually meant trying to break the bosses' AI in order to hit them and them not being able to hitback. Having overpowered gear isn't cheesing, but rather it is playing smartly.
I have the argument in stealth games where if you accidentally screw up and have to kill everyone "If no one's left alive to tell what happened, it still counts as stealth"
Explore the grey, practice empathy, listen closely, respond with compassion, speak honestly without attacking others. Play the game the way you enjoy the most, once you understand all of the options. Loved the closing comments and requests.
Here's my argument. If a boss is explicitly weak to a specific status (Radahn is weak to Scarlet Rot) and that is *by design.* Why would I not use it? It's no different than switching from a slashing weapon to a bludgeoning weapon on a boss that's strong against slashing. It is a tool FS specifically gave with the intention of the players adapting to it. But SR on Radahn and using the summons which you are intended to use was considered "cheesing" him. Someone playing the boss AS INTENDED and AS EXPECTED, is "cheesing" and "the wrong way" to fight the boss. Why should I not use summons? There are several gank bosses in the game that are insufferable without something to split aggro. (The Sol Castle boss, Gargoyles, double Crucible Knights, etc) Is it wrong to use the summons then? When it would make the most sense to call for help either using the ashes or online help? Where does it end? Someones definition of cheese will likely be different depending on someone. Some people legitimately think upgrading your flask is cheese. Some people think using a *shield* is cheese. Are those peoples opinions just as valid? Where does the line get drawn? If there is no consensus, if there is no definitive way to play the game, why should someone not use the powerful tools they have like bleed, scarlet rot, high damage weapons and spells, etc. *You* don't get to decide someones value. Cause if they don't care, why do you? Why do you get to decide what's right for them?
Finding interesting ways to make the challenges easier can be an enjoyable way to approach games. The victories can still feel satisfying as you may have had to work for them in other ways; exploring the world, building up your character, increasing your knowledge of the game... etc... An easier victory can be a reward for finding another solution and still feels better than difficulty options. Although I personally prefer to go in blind and like to see all of the mechanics for each boss at least once.
Meh. I “cheesed” half the game my first playthrough because I chose to do a sorcery build. I didn’t look anything up about it, just wanted to try sorcery in Elden Ring because magic has always been underwhelming in prior games to me. The previews I saw made magic look pretty cool, so knowing I would play this game again with a melee build, I chose to go magic first playthrough. I played the game. I didn’t cheat the mechanics of a boss. The game gave me comet azure and that FP potion. So using my head I melted the bosses I could because hey, I used the mechanics they gave me. So I agree with FightinCowboy 100%. I look at cheesing as finding a glitch. Like the Sekiro glitch for the demon of hatred. You could argue looking up an easy kill of a boss is cheesing, but someone who figured it out themself by using the game mechanics is not cheesing at all. I got the comet spell and fp tear right before the capital. I invested everything into INT and MiND. Basically I was getting one shotted everywhere. Give and take. The only boss I felt regret using that combo against was the Knight guarding the capital. I saw his dumbass sitting there so I just loaded up the spell and killed him before he moved. Other than dragons, I found myself using both melee and magic to take them down. Honestly had a lot of fun using different summons and spells throughout the game. And now, playing the game again without either will be just as fun. Souls try hards are hilarious.
If you discover the cheese yourself that doesn't make it not cheesing. Also you shouldn't feel bad about cheesing if that's how you wanted to do it and that's what you enjoy. There's creativity and enjoyment in coming up with cheese strategies that can be really satisfying, as you pointed out, but that doesn't make it not cheese.
Okay, so in general, I think you're both correct. Before I watched the rest of the video, I thought about fighting Cowboy's opinion before I heard yours. For the most part I completely agree with him. I don't believe that FromSoft wants to create a specific difficulty that all players will feel. They want everyone to be given the same challenge, but how they handle the challenge is the point of RPGs. I don't want a difficulty setting in these games, but I want variety of playstyles, which inevitably means there will always be an infinite amount of builds and personalities that have completely unique experiences. As far as nerfing and buffing goes, there's nothing wrong with tweaking the numbers to be a little more fair and balanced, especially with PvP but also, though lesser, PvE. His point that resonates with me, is that FromSoft wants the player to have options, and I doubt that they are losing sleep at night knowing that some players are having an easier time. I agree with you about going in blind and not researching all the exploits to death, especially on a first play through, but eventfully people are going to try something that's a little broken, and I don't see why that should be a problem. Also I think having ash summons is great. There's nothing wrong with help because in real life there are often people who are willing to help, though not always and most of the time you can't summon so it balances imo.
That spell cowboy is talking about is trash in pvp buddy you literally stand still and point it in one spot can't even move the beam of magic all the enemy has to do is move. Some spells and builds are cheap but everyone uses the most annoying stuff like bleed which is completely utterly broken damage wise. In pvp I could get hit a couple times with bleed build and die cause of the massive amount of damage it can put out. Same with strength it can put out a lot in a few swings too. Also buffs stacking is kinda broken too. So.... Plenty of broken melee builds to speak of.
Except that they did say before the game's release in a post that they declined adding an "easy mode" since challenge is a big part of the experience they intend. Why do you think none of their games has a difficulty setting for that matter? Now I don't know if these broken OP mechanics are by design, some of them definitely don't seem to be since they fixed part of them.
@@Leonhart_93 it depends on just jow broken they are, mimic tear was, but it wasn't so strong as to be made pointless for example(i guess it went from the equivalent of having a rando carrying you to a friend playing evenly with you, but without them answering any question you might have) After all, the player IS reward for investing tome or being clever, that's at the base of roleplay videogames, especially jrpgs.
I say this as a SoulsBorne veteran who beat Inner Ishinn taking no damage: Elden Ring is hard. I powered through most of the bosses without using cheese strats, but some like Malenia and the final boss really stumped me to the point I caved and used OP stuff like Mimic Tear. However, like the other games, going through more playthroughs makes you better and better until you don't need to rely on crutch strategies. So don't feel bad about using them as long as you make sure to learn and try to get better.
I would be down to get better if the bosses didn’t feel like they were difficult to the point of not being fun -_- IMO there’s way too much “cheap” difficulty. Like bosses having AoEs that punish you for perfect rolls. Or I mean straight up just too much damage despite having max vigor and heavy armor.
Malenia gave me so much salt that i tried everything just to beat her (except for summoning other people), but now ironically, she became my most enjoyable boss fight in the game to solo, i even made a separate character just to fight her daily (resetting when she's 1-2 hits away from dying). I think i have close to 30 hours of ingame time just fighting her. And then there's the godskin duo, f those guys
True. on my first playthrough i also caved on some bosses and used mimic tear. on my second character i didn't and i got to see alot of boss mechanics and design that was completely crushed under overpowered strats on my first character. I got to experience the game design, see the actual boss movesets up close and personal, have more fun and feel like i actually beaten the challenge of the boss. I think at some point you have to try it the standard way to get the most fun out of the game. i honestly think a player that used op strats all the way through and never replayed the game missed out on alot.
I'm not playing this game more than once so I'm definitely looking shit up because how the fuck else am I supposed to figure out that I have to talk to a doll 3 times at a specific bonfire
This game made me realize how awful part of the community is. There are some really helpful folks but I can’t help but think some people are compensating for something when they bully people, especially newcomers, into thinking that there’s something wrong with certain builds. Isn’t the point of an RPG to use the best items available in order to win?
According to his definition of cheesing; me just randomly coming in a Crystalian boss fight equipped with a great hammer and Ground Slam ash of war and just destroying those bosses with them barely even moving is cheesing. Maybe the joy I felt where my build just happened to be the perfect counter to the boss was illegitimate too; maybe I should've equipped some random katana and respec'd to Dex so I see them do some moves and get the "intended" experience for that fight. This youtuber can call it what he wants, but saying skipping mechanics is "cheesing" is also gatekeeping and he didn't have to make a 9 minute video just to say that he isn't a gatekeeper (coz' he fucking is). If he doesn't want people to label him as a loser and a gatekeeper then maybe he shouldn't label certain playstyles with a negative connotation such as "cheese" - what a hypocrite.
The point of an RPG is to roleplay a certain character. It could be an op tweaked mess or a complete wimp. Its not about maximising damage or finding the best stuff necessarily.
I feel you on this. RPGs deliberately push players to find better weapons, better armour, better abilities, to level up your stats and find better builds. Then after dozens of hours of improving your character you're supposed to "discipline yourself" and "show restraint" by stopping at an arbitrary point and refusing to use a specific weapon? If that's the case then it's a failure of game design, not the fault of the player.
@@CallMeBadong yea this is not cheesing. cheesing has always meant something like shooting arrows at dragon rider in ds2 while not being in his area so you can oneshot him later.
yes, they are overcompensating for something, Soulsborne bullying is the gaming equivalent of buying a ferrari, its called micro-penis syndrome. Anyone that chooses to bully, deride, rubbish or insult newcomers over how they choose to play A VIDEOGAME have serious personality issues they need to deal with. Play it in whatever way makes you happy....YOU paid for it!
I totally agree with the going in blind philosophy, but my perspective on what makes something OP has changed a lot over the years of playing, and replaying souls games; and I've come to the conclusion that the player who plays a magic build and explores adequately to find the broken stuff on their own is no different than the strength build who uses a lightning zweihander, or an OP bleed weapon. Plus i think it's unlikely that a first time player going in blind will find all the OP things they need to break these games anyway; even if they do they don't know enough about the layout of level or the enemies themselves to use it optimally
Only thing though is that the things you mentioned are like pea-shooters in this game. They might have been significant in the other games that they made everything 25% easier (which was a lot), but they pale in comparison with stuff like pre patch Royal Knight Resolve + sword of night and flame that could do like 7k damage with a single cast, or hoarfrost stomp. Exactly as he said in the video, some people actually make a point of always using the most OP stuff and when that gets nerfed it's like someone broke their legs all of a sudden, they have no idea how they are supposed to advance, which is really sad.
@@Leonhart_93 yeah I agree with you. My statement was assuming a blind playthrough, and it i is unfortunate that truly busted things don't get caught until most people are already playing. Also, (maybe I should've said this first) my experience is almost entirely solo, offline with all these games, so I am speaking from a purely PVE perspective; 🤷♂️ blind spots
@@ameshizen381 Yeah, I kind of agree. On two separate occasions in DS1, I tried to do a Paladin style character. One was completely blind without looking up anything. Because of it, I didn't know how to get into the SunBro covenant, and I couldn't get Lightning spear. I didn't know how to find Gwyndolin normally yet, and killing Gwynevere went against the ideals of a paladin. So the run ended up just being a warrior who occasionally heals or uses Homeward. Next time, I looked up some things on the Wiki, and had a lot better time for it.
I agree and love that from has essentially answered the "should dark souls have an easy mode" question, but I think when commenting for strategies or discussing difficulties for boss, areas, etc.- people need to specify how they play. Saying margit was push over when you used ashes, npc summon, and magic vs someone solo meleeing him- you are basically having entirely different conversations
It's basically people who work smart vs people who work hard. "Cheesing" is finding a clever solution to solved the same problem someone else is doing through their hard work.
I don’t mind summons personally, when I could in previous souls games I’d always try to get a summon for some help, I find it joyful to have some friendly faces in those lonely worlds. I don’t mind the mimic either but it gets waaay out of hand when you start spamming hoarfrost stomp together, only having 67 FP and killing the boss without swinging your weapon once and no FP flasks used.
The only time I used a summon was for melania and that was because I fucking hated that boss (But she looks badass). I don’t go around using mimic tear to blast through everything, but if I come up against a boss I think is stupid or unfair, I don’t see a problem with cheesing it. I didn’t use summons for Radahn because while he did a lot of damage and was difficult I thought he was fun because I understood how and when I messed up. Melania on the other hand, when she pulls out a one thousand strike, barely and I mean BARELY avoidable attack at a range that makes it less so, I don’t see anything wrong with using a summon. Godskin duo is fun with the strategy that I’ve developed, but probably isn’t for others and wasn’t for me at first. Summoning a friend to explore side content can be fun too, but I think people usually are just upset when people cheese bosses that they know are fair and fun. My friend comet azured Godfrey, glitched Mohg, carian slice glitched Radagon, and ai broke elden beast, then proceeded to complain about how terribly made and unfun all the bosses were. He also never learns a boss because he fights 100% of his bosses with me to basically do it for him. He has 150+ hours in ds3 and the only boss he has killed alone is iudux gundyr.
@@jasemayfield6853 U think Melania was stupid & unfair? Then watch this & tell me how was this possible ruclips.net/video/8NqX3Kj6qec/видео.html&ab_channel=Koudai.T ruclips.net/video/r7dSrmbPqYU/видео.html&ab_channel=PaddyVu
@@jasemayfield6853 Malenia is such a strangely designed boss. I have no idea what the intent was behind her. She has this one attack that she can use without any sort of cooldown for up to three times in a row whith no windows for punish, while on the other hand she has this one extremly slow attack that even an infant could dodge and land at least 10 hits in the meantime. I really don't get it.
I love this! I will add that I attempted dark souls 3 times before the final time that I was able to get through it. But what pushed me to do it was seeing speedrunners cheese things and accomplish the whole feat so quickly. I ended up not doing it much, and doing no cheesing once I got through Ornstein and Smough. But knowing I had the option and using it sometimes was added value in that I got through the game at all. I'll still agree that not cheesing and experiencing the whole intended thing in one blind go has the most value total, and advocating for that is great as long as you aren't devaluing someone else's experience, which you haven't been! I think it turns out that some spoilers and difficulty modifiers don't actually spoil as much of someone's first playthrough as we tend to be afraid that it will. Even running through some things,cheesing others, and seeing most of the game played before I finished it - that first dark souls playthrough did it all for me, sucked me in and still made me learn everything. It changed my approach to gaming, allows me to approach all kinds of difficult gaming challenges, and has given me the power to approach all the other souls games blind as a bat.
Yesterday I discovered something incredible, I'd never bothered with ashes of summon and battle arts until yesterday, I decided to go through my inventory and try them all out, and the flame of redmane is Powerful!! It's is chargeable even without charging a single cast could break an enemy's stance banished knight take x2 to break and death rite only take 3 times to break it's stance. Simple and powerful ashes of war. And I thought to myself why did i never bother with ashes of war before, not because I feel ashame mainly becoz I just don't bother but they are all so good. Please try it out for yourself. Anyway, I don't feel shame using all the tools and ashes, they are there for a reason for efficiency's sake and better experience and practicality
Flame art +25 claymore with flame of redmanes, dragons are a joke to me, I fucking love that weapon art lmao, I'm sure it's getting nerfed in the future though.
Souls plebs will unironically say that the enemy nation/faction didn’t really beat them because said enemy used Artillery, air raids and tactics correlated to such equipment. Sorry, had to get that joke off.
I feel like there is a small issue with your argument, despite how well put together it is, in that you aren't looking at cheese and overpower through the eyes of someone who plays open world games rather than soulslikes, and I've noticed this in a few of your videos. For many players there is appeal in seeing how far they can push themselves by going off of the beaten path, something that I would argue is probably intended by things like teleport traps and gateways that can send you into areas above your weight class. Dodging past high level enemies to get a very good item, or finding a strategy to kill them and nab a larger amount of runes than you should have, and then using such things to have an easier time in the main story, that feels like a reward for your own exploration in and of itself. Sure, it changes the intended difficulty of the fight, but I would argue that the open world creates many new avenues that previous soulslikes do not. While it does not always apply, using such methods can sometimes give a bigger feeling of overcoming the odds with the spirit of your own exploration. Obviously there is nuance to this, and I think your advice with things like starting with the wretch on your first play through definitely has merit. But I do also think the sequence break-ish (ish because I mean only the stuff one can do without glitches) has a good degree of merit as well for certain players
I cannot say that I agree at all. I appreciate your intent of suggesting that no one look up anything on their first playthrough but that assumes a luxury of time to play not everyone shares. Some of us have lives. I can maybe put ten hours a week into Elden Ring. If I played your way I would still be on my first playthrough a year from now and I can guess that I would not be having a very good time anymore. Am I a casual now despite playing From Soft games for more than a decade? I am already familiar with the basic mechanics of their games and there is zero enjoyment in pretending that I am not. Some things are simply too obscure (weapon upgrade materials, even post-patching) in a world that is too big. You say don't worry about game mechanics but do have to, at least a little. If I don't know where anything is then I have to pick a halfway decent weapon early on and upgrade it (say to +8). But then say I later find another weapon I want to use but now I cannot upgrade it past +6 because I used all my best smithing stones on the gear that got me to this point. So now I am forced to choose between proceeding through the game with my 'best/+8 weapon' that I have been using for weeks and weeks and am bored of or trying tougher areas with a new underpowered weapon that maybe I like more. And I honestly can't even tell if I like the new weapon more because it is so underpowered that I cannot fairly compare it to my old weapon. Does this sound like fun? Is this part of the intended mechanics of Elden Ring? Now rinse and repeat that experience over again as your best weapon gets to +12 and then +18 and then +24. Or I can look up where to find the smithing shard bell bearings and get on with things. Or maybe I have a different idea of what is fun in these games. The inescapable truth is that cheese is in the eye of the beholder and there will never be a consensus on what is cheese and what is not. Gatekeeping a game/band/book/movie franchise/sports team is a prerogative of callow youth (or a matter of insecurity and immaturity for those of us who are not youthful anymore) and should be regarded as nothing more or less.
@@petercottantail7850 some people have other things to do besides gaming, try fighting the same battle over and over again for days or weeks because you can only play for one hour a day.
I don’t look things up, or build a cheese killer for my first playthrough, I approach all the bosses solo the first time, and make a decision after a few attempts as to whether ill call in ashes or use strategies to bait out certain moves. I don’t think I’m cheesing because I usually just do it the way the game intended… but I also let my jelly bro get the last hit on margit and godrick, which if anything made the fight harder cause I used it late in the fight lol. Oh also the page ash got the last hit on renala I saw her using Pokémon so I figured fair play
This is perhaps as close as to what i imagine the intended way to play to be: play the game solo, if you don't have time, turn the online and vheck the messages, if you find a boss hard, use ash summons or call up a friend, anything else is fair game unless the devs forgot about something (like hoarfrost stomp, comet azur being probably a bit stronger than intended, mimic tear being a bit excessive, etc) After all, to get the the tools you used to beat the boss, you almost surely went somewhere and did something to obtain them, you earned them, and the game awards you with being able to use that item efficiently. Now whether everything is fairly balanced or not... Well, i think we can say with ease that the answer is no, but it's not a responsibility of the player to not use those, i mean, i didn't know hoarfrost stomp was op, who was gonna tell me? Nobody, i thought it was just strong and that if i wanted to make proper use of it i had to invest in mind and making sure to have good timing.
@@iota-09 yep, I use summons when I run into a gank boss fight. Fromsoft put soo many double bosses in the various mini dungeons that I feel no remorse using an Ash summon if I’m outnumbered in the boss fight. Hell I even doubt there was much thought into balancing for those double bosses either. So I’ll summon for that. For main bosses, it depends on the boss, but Rhadan fight legit wants you to summon, so nuts to anyone who cares that I summoned for that fight. First time around should be completely how *you* the player want to approach it the first time. Multiple playthroughs? New Game+? Time to learn better ways cause cheesing won’t always carry you.
@@iota-09 I did the crisol duo and the crisol/bastard duo with a friend, that bosses are much more fun played with a friend, and less enraging of course.
You cheese me, I cheese you. Fair is fair. There's a boss on the mountaintops in a castle with two fairly challenging summons and all three of them fight you at once. I don't play like that, 1v1 me you fucking coward. So I bursted the summons down with magic cheese and fought the boss alone with a greatsword. He was still really tough. No regrets. Lmao RUclips wanted me to edit this comment to make sure it's respectful. I'm cussing at a video game character, Susan. Chill.
@@Dekross not sure what "crisol duo" is, probably because i've yet to fully beat the game, but i don't find it hard to believe, bosses like radahn or the commanders(which btw reminded me a lot of a cerrain boss in the champion's ashes ds3 mod...) Definitely feel like they are improved by using ash, npc or even friend summons.
@@Sohelanthropus that’s wrong, be definition it’s using game mechanics/items in an unintended way. Until we can prove developers intent, we can’t prove cheese
I disagree with the way you qualify cheesing, imo cheesing is simply beating a boss/a level using unintended mechanics or bugs, for a couple of examples: - Beating a boss by manipulating its ai into falling off the arena and dying = cheesing - Beating a boss by atacking him from a position where it can't attack you be it because of an AI or terrain quirk = cheesing - Beating a boss with an overpowerd weapon = not cheesing - Beating a boss by repeating a strategy that is 100% consistent and makes the fight effectivly easy (ie sticking to vicar emilia's back at all times in bloodborne) = not cheesing - Using a weapon/item that is bugged and is much more effective than intended = cheesing I think this is the fairest most generally consistent way of defining what cheesing is, otherwise defenitions like yours just leave to much up to interpretation and isn't objective enough to effectivly qualify any 1 op strategy as cheesing or not cheesing
This 100% Walking in and blasting the boss with an OP spell so it instantly dies is not cheesing. You are using the spell they gave you. In the way it is supposed to be used. You can call it a balancing issue and they may patch a nerf in, but it is not cheesing because you aren't going outside the bounds of the intended experience. They intended you to have this spell, and they intended for you to be able to shoot it at the boss. If it kills the boss too quickly then boo hoo for the boss. when you walk into an end game boss arena at level 1 and get one shotted the boss didn't cheese you. Cheesing is like when you can lob bombs through the fog door and kill the boss without going in the room. They didn't design it that way intentionally, you found an exploit. All that being said, just play the game however you want and dont shame people for how they played it. Ratasokar is correct that looking up a legitimate cheese like if you walk in and immediately move all the way to the left the boss AI will always fall off a cliff and die will yield a less enjoyable playthrough, but if someone wants to do that that is their business.
Just have to say, on the last point how do we know what’s intended or not? Yeah Icerind was doing more damage than intended before 1.03 but none of us could have known that officially it too powerful, at least not till FS nerfed it.
i think you're missing the point of his definition; missing out on game mechanics, or bosses their movesets because of an overpowered weapon or a certain strategy.. and i do understand where you're coming from but i think his interpretation IS in fact very much objective, cause you're missing out on content, which isn't subjective. so yeah wether or not it's due to exploiting bugs or manipulating ai or cause of overpowered weapons, you're still missing out on most of what makes the game good. Cause you're absolutely right that using a good, consistent strategy isn't cheesing persay, but if it make you miss out on half of the boss their moveset for example then maybe it is. like personally i get way more satisfaction from beating a boss by facing their entire moveset, actually making use of every combat mechanic that can help me win the fight.. which will be more of a struggle than beating a boss in a few seconds because of an overpowered weapon art, haha.
@@hashimrahman51 "Engaging with the boss mechanics" is the scale. It's straightforward. You can't just ignore a boss's attacks or patterns with a +0 moonveil. That doesn't change with a +1 moonveil, since even though you will kill the boss faster, you still have to think about and respond to the boss mechanics. But if you go out of your way to get a +10 moonveil to fight an early-game boss and kill it in one hit, you haven't engaged with the mechanics. If you spam hoarfrost stomp or azur comet, regardless of what the boss is doing because it doesn't matter what the boss is doing, then that's cheesing. I think his definition actually covers all the bases mentioned above without overcomplicating things.
Another way of considering this aspect is that if FromSoftware didn't want you to access the abilities /weapons etc, then areas where these are would be gated more seriously than they are now. In some cases I can see the op cheese method as losing an aspect of the game, but in others "one persons cheese, is another persons tactic " I am tending towards archery, if I can find a sniper location so I don't get one shot, is that cheesing?
I actually love the vast array of difficulty options that Elden Ring has to work with. And I completely agree with your point that the main issue should be using wikis on your first playthrough. I would even argue that 99% of the time, if you don't look something up, you won't end up "accidentally" cheesing a boss or creating an overpowered build early game. Even as a souls veteran who started with the original Demon's Souls, I find myself using ashen summons CONSTANTLY. Not because I actually need them, but because I think it is an awesome new mechanic, and I love trying out each of the different spirits whenever I find them.
Exactly. I found the icerinde axe in liurnia that’s like 20 hours in into a fresh playthrough, I upgraded late game and used it, posted a comment about it and got shit. I’m sorry I didn’t watch all the op builds when I played so that I’d know I’d crush bosses with lol
If by "cheese" you mean "op builds that demolish bosses," I think it's acceptable if those builds aren't easy to discover as a new player by total accident. Most op stuff I'm aware of requires specific knowledge of item locations and a good bit of effort to get them, it balances out.
except 99% of Sword of night and flame users actually typed "how to be overpowered in elden ring" and went to kill the dragon in caelid and upgrade their weapon at RL1.
@@saucesriracha3763 No? It's pretty easy to stumble upon in game and is obviously really powerful (triple damage types, legendary aura, etc). Most people just found it and started using it after that
@@Asterius_101 Yeah they probably got lost and instead of doing Margit they somehow got to Caria Manor and felt confident enough to explore the zone because this place is confy and easy not at all like Limgrave as we all know. Then they probably wandered around Caelid to get +8 weapon at RL1 because again, Margit is just so hard to find and Caelid actually means "heavens" in latin
I mean, comet azure and infinite mana are just... obvious. I don't know why so many people are trying to accuse everyone who's done that of looking up a guide. They're like two puzzle pieces that just fit together, you know?
The only problem with cheesing is pvp. It's too easy to re-spec your character into a pvp build to grief other people who are building characters for different purposes. Also, many people can't beat Malenia without a summon because she has cheesy regeneration.
@@universeobserver378 yep. I'll stop using summons when FromSoft stops piling on the gank bosses. If the boss gets to bring a plus one to this party, so do I.
Malenia's healing isn't cheesy or unfair, but an attempt to design a new non-gimmick boss encounter in different way from the dodge-hit formula they've used. Because while she has combos that can randomly have upwards of 8 or 9 different attacks before it ends and she has her lifesteal, she also can be interrupted out of almost all of her attacks with only a few windows where she is impervious to it. They used her status as an optional hidden superboss to experiment with a new design and create an encounter where you are incentivized to create your own openings rather than wait for her to finish attacking you for them.
3:01 „using azure comet doesn’t mean that you didn’t beat it properly, but you didn’t beat it properly because you used azure comet“ is basically what he said lmao
I'm afraid I disagree, I think cheesing is actually trying to do something unintended, like quite outs or firing arrows through a fog door. Using the tools they have provided is not cheese simply because you don't have to learn attack patterns. I think if they didn't want the flask that negates fp usage and all that entails to be in the game it wouldn't have been in the game from the start, it's power is obvious. They've nerfed other things but left it alone. IMO it's one of the in built difficulty sliders they have deliberately put in as is, with consideration. Things like frost stomp being too spamable was likely just overlooked and subsequently tweaked. Obviously if they do nerf it, ignore this point. At the moment I have two friends playing ER as their first fromsoft game, one loves magic, one loves melee and to learn the dance. Calling one cheese, because it involves less acumen, wether intended or not, comes across as insulting. Before people just say I'm a cheesy scrub, I have completed all the soulsborne games with summons and solo, melee builds and a magic builds.
looking up on youtube how to find late game items early is kind of cheesing though. Sure if you just happen to discover them yourself but cheesing the tree spirit for infinite fp tear and picking up the spell before killing a single boss is cheesy as hell.
You’re right that looking up how to do some cheap tactic and sequence breaking to get it right away can seem hinky. The flipside of that is, people can’t blather about it being an open world game, and place that value as high as they do, then complain when people open world. If you all want people to earn their way up from Limsa to Anor Londo along a straight path, then shut up about open world crap so maybe every video game doesn’t have to fit that stupid mold.
The fact that you have to mention that you completed all fromstoftware games the "right" way underpins how toxic part of the soulsborne community is. As if your argument is invalid if it were not for that disclaimer statement.
Might just be biased with Fighting Cowboy but I feel he's right when he says using op equipment or a build isn't cheesing. Some fights require some amount of learning, you're not always circumventing the entire fight with some builds. Something like finding a high vantage point and shooting the boss down where it can't reach you is cheesing I feel. You could be using a really strong melee weapon but if the boss hits equally as hard or harder you're out of luck if you don't learn it's fight. You have some interesting opinions I feel some people hate on you for but you've helped make my Elden Ring play through just that bit more engaging and fun so I thank you.
honestly, if it's a gank boss or one that summons minions of any kind, I cease to care what their mechanics or movesets are. I just cheese them in whatever way I can at that point, I don't have the patience for their bullshit lol
My first playthrough of Elden Ring was blind, and it is how I still recommend playing it for other people. However, I think a thing not actively discussed among the community is the concept of investment in the game. With all of the Dark Souls games, when you are playing completely blind you have to kind of arbitrarily pick a playstyle and even a specific weapon to be what you use for a majority of your play time. While I like doing this, I also understand completely why people are uncomfortable with the decision. If I found out 40 hours in my build sucks and if I was using another weapon or set of spells I would be having a much easier time, I would be frustrated. I will add that Elden Ring has a pretty lenient respec mechanic, but I still believe that what makes people really hesitant to just jump into the game are things like upgrade materials. While easier in Elden Ring than Dark Souls, there is still a sizeable commitment to upgrading a weapon. I believe it is totally reasonable to want to look up something like "best straight sword" because if you found out after investing so much material into a weapon that another was a straight upgrade, you would be upset. From a game design perspective, I think the best way to encourage people to play more blind is to be very forgiving with changing playstyles and weapons, like maybe even allowing full upgrade material refunds on weapons so that you can try out new ones without an overwhelming commitment. Ultimately, I think everyone can play the game however they want, and while my opinion is that guideless is best, I understand peoples hesitancy and do not think they are robbing themselves of enjoyment by looking things up.
One point you're missing, though, is that you can complete the game without an optimum build. You can complete the game without the best weapon. People do it all the time. Build is secondary to just getting good at the game. In From games, I never spend that much time thinking about my build. I spend more time learning the mechanics of the game. And I think that's the point Ratotaskr is making when he advises to play blind.
If FS didn't intend for what is considered cheese to be in the game, they should have listened to feedback and patched them out entirely. It's not the customers fault for what a company intentionally or unintentionally puts in their product. Whether it's a weapon that one shots everything or no clipping to the final boss, it's ultimately up to the devs, not the player, to decide what stays and goes.
This is my first FromSoftWare game and at 57 years old it's a huge learning experience. The only real Boss I've stomped so far is Margit. He stomped me 7 times first but I learned more of how he fights each time. For me this is more a strategy game. Fight, die, learn and repeat until it's fight and win.
Haven't watched the video yet but... People will play how they wanted to play. I've been playing Souls games since DS1 and I cheesed the hell out of that game. That's how people get into them. And in successive games I tended to lean further and further away from cheesy builds but that's what got me into the game that I would've probably bounced off of if I had tried a super try hard only-dodge no-block melee only build. Even with using summons, spellcasting, OP weapon arts, it's still a challenging game, especially if someone is new to the series. So let them have their fun and get through the game, and the game will inevitably demand more from them and since the game respects the player, probably on subsequent playthroughs or games that player will probably return that respect and try different strategies. Gonna watch the video now :). PS. PvP is a different story altogether, the above relates to PvE. PPS. In DS1 I played through most of that game not even knowing that dodging had i-frames... These games can be really overwhelming to new players.
For story bosses, I'll beat them on my own (not with friends) because that's my preference but I'll use summons and golden sigils because playing with the npcs is fun. I do think that the souls community has a certain degree of masochism, which is whatever, live your life but I'm not gonna feel bad because I didn't fight margit at level 10 with a club, half health, no flasks or whatever crazy challenge is latest. I choose less frustration. Respect to whatever playstyle you choose to use though. All that said, I could see fighting field bosses with a friend, that sounds fun
The logical flaw in all this discourse is the notion that everything From does which stacks against the player is fair because it's what they chose to do, but overpowered weapons and abilities needs to be changed. If you think they needed to patch Hoarfrost Stomp and the Sword of Night and Flame, then you shouldn't be so dismissive of the people criticizing the bosses for being cheap. Either their ability to tune the game is infallible or it isn't, and I do think the fixation on difficulty has often been detrimental to the overall experience of these games.
@@V2ULTRAKill I'm not saying I agree with every criticism, but compared to previous From games there are a lot of bosses that can kill you very quickly, have long combo strings, and can dodge across the arena. I haven't actually finished it yet so I'm not going to make a final judgment until then, but already I can see what people are talking about.
ehh.... You're right in principle but there's a pretty massive difference between boss attacks and individual player weapons and abilities you aren't acknowledging. Every boss' attack and movement is extremely carefully designed, as it is known that all players, or nearly all players, will interact with said boss. Great and specific care is taken with Godrick and Radahn and Malenia. The individual weapons and abilities though are FAR too numerous and no single one of them experienced by the whole player base that nowhere near the same attention is given. So its only to be expected that accidentally broken player attacks are more common than accidentally broken boss mechanics. You can reliably assume in most contexts that Rememberence bosses are working as intended. The same can not be said for the hundreds of possible player ability interactions.
@@JD-xz1mx It isn't like everyone is doing everything on the dev team, they have people with specific roles for all of this stuff. If the team members who were working on the weapons for the entire development process can decide after the fact a weapon art or weapon should be nerfed, then it's equally possible that the people developing the boss encounters didn't think about it enough either.
@@JD-xz1mx Boss attacks have been designed carefully previously. This isn't necessarily the case in elden ring, due to copies of bosses. That's why dragons have already been tweaked, and ulcerated tree spirits have an obnoxious amount of bugs. In theory though, you're correct for the correct reasons: these bosses are subject to the same problems as player weaponry and even basic NPC moves (like the bleed dog bite) because they are duplicates that have been mass produced rather than the handcrafted original. They don't have handcrafted care as a result, and their flaws are more numerous. Just because fromsoft made this boss, doesn't mean it conforms to previous design standards.
"No one should make your win feel illegitimate. Here's an entire video about how its okay to gatekeep and be an elitist as long as you frame it as being more right and noble instead of direct insults."
Lol this, this video is just a soft way of saying "yeah, keep bitching at the people who can win in seconds cause their experience is lessened since they aren't being bitch slapped by the boss"
Hey, your PVE experience is still "legitimate" even if you downloaded cheats in my opinion. It's your game, your fun, you do you. I'm not going to agree you've experienced the same game as me, though, nor the intended experience of feeling continually challenged by bosses you have to work to beat.
I disagree with Comet Azure/Infinite FP flask being a "Cheese" mainly because even if it were to be nerfed it will still function the same. What I believe the definition of "Cheesing" is borderline cheeting, but not actually using any kind software to do so, and is more of getting the boss stuck in a specific spot that which the boss can longer fight back. Using something the game gives you like a powerful Ash of War/Spell is not "Cheesing" even if it makes fighting bosses much easier.
I think what you are describing is called exploiting, not cheesing. When you use unintended mechanics to beat a boss, I have always called that exploiting the game. To me, cheesing has always meant to find a creative way to avoid engaging with bosses or content; for example if a sorcerer build was to stay far away from a meele boss and shoot it until it dies, this is completely intended, but it falls under the definition I have always used for cheesing, because such a sorcerer would've found a creative way to kill the boss without having to engage with it, in the sense that it wasn't as challenging as it could've been because of the smart/ creative way that was used to defeat it. This is completely fine and there is nothing wrong with cheesing, I've cheesed bosses, I've defeated them 'normally', I've had fun with both ways of playing. Personally, I find it very fun to find ways to cheese a boss myself (rather than looking it up) but that's just me. In the end, this discussion seems to be more of a disagreement on definitions.
I mean, not everyone is going to able to beat every boss in this game without "cheesing" (using your definition of avoiding mechanics). The OP stuff is the same as an easy mode. It's there for people that need/want it, and that's a good thing. Same with guides and tutorials. I also don't understand the premium placed on first playthroughs. In every souls game my first playthrough where I stubbornly didn't look up anything, fought through areas underleveled, and missed a bunch of content that I later had to go back and stomp through at a higher sl, was my least favorite. I always have more fun once I understand how the mechanics are being applied, and especially in a game as big as ER, I think guides are genuine aid to progression.
The premium is placed on first playthroughs because you can't unlearn things. *If* you're someone who will enjoy the blind playthrough experience you *have* to do it on your first playthrough. Someone may be like you, where enjoyment is more readily found in having full or partial knowledge of the game before playing, but that's okay because you can always do that playthrough after you've attempted a blind one. You can't do it the other way around though.
@@NabsterHax I get that, but I still think it's not necessarily the best thing to recommend to first timers. The games give you lots of ways to help yourself, but especially in the early games, explain almost none of them. Telling people that they're devaluing their experience by seeking help doesn't make the games more fun. It just makes it more likely that they'll hit a wall and think maybe this isn't for them.
@@zedwords Personally, I don't recommend it to first-timers *to the series*, and I've often discouraged people from trying to force themselves to do it this way if they aren't having fun. I didn't get into Dark Souls blind. It took me watching someone else's playthrough to begin appreciating the game. Seeing someone else's process, who was experienced but not totally spoiling every little game mechanic revealed a lot to me about what the game expected of the player and how to have fun playing. But I also think first-timers should stay away from guides designed to make them OP, or give away all the game's secrets from the get-go. Following these guides doesn't teach you how these people gained the knowledge to create them, and just leaves you relying on outside help for your entire playthrough rather than learning how to become self-sufficient. I'm obviously biased by my own experience, but I'd say watch someone who's kinda average at the game play it. It'll help you feel more comfortable getting stomped on yourself (because they doubtless will) and they'll stumble upon things you'll want to explore further yourself.
@@NabsterHax I think we mostly agree, but in defense of the op guides for newbies, I'd say that if someone wants to stomp through, more power to them. Feeling unstoppable can be the thin end of the wedge towards exploring more mechanics and engaging more deeply with the series. This is why I don't mind ganks in pvp. Ganking is fun for a little while, but most people get bored with it as they become more skilled. That's why the ganker to blue to invader pipeline exists, and I could absolutely see an op gear to sl1 track operating similarly.
You talking about your advise for avoiding looking stuff up and to not cheese bosses is similar to the Defender gear argument in monster hunter funnily enough
Before I start, I want to say that I really enjoy your content and appreciate the thought and care you put into your videos. That being said, its honestly kind of baffling how you could so completely misinterpret FightinCowboy's (FC) tweets so thoroughly. At no point in his tweets did he claim that the entirely broken things in the game were working as intended but rather that those tools existed because the developers wanted them in the game for a reason; likely to help newer or struggling players get a leg up on the competition. You make a fair point about the Infinite FP/Comet Azure combo being a legit cheese strat for certain bosses, but its not clear to me, as somebody nearly done with the game, that this SINGULAR combo would be enough to get through a lot of endgame bosses. As such, people would be forced to adapt and find new ways to conquer those challenges (Godskin Duo comes to mind first as a boss this wouldn't work on, but idk as I went a different route). Your entire response centers on the "cheesing" part of his statement, which is odd because that's not really what his tweets appear to be about. Instead they appear to about the gatekeeping that people, such as myself, endure when telling people about their accomplishments only to have then denigrated because we had a post-nerf mimic, or were using the NPC summon. Why is my victory any less legitimate? I didn't "cheese" the boss by not engaging with their mechanics; I simply used the tools provided to me to overcome the obstacle. What I find most fascinating however why YOU would feel attacked by his statement and feel the need to essentially foist the "not all men" rebuttal, assuring us that YOU aren't one of those people. This is odd to me because none of your content, that I've seen, has ever portrayed you in that way. Your content is clear that you have a preference for how the game should be played, but I've never heard you attack anyone for playing the way THEY would like, so why recuse yourself from those allegations? FC's tweets speak to an experience that YOU don't participate in and IN NO WAY do they indict people who merely suggest/advise/recommend that people play a certain way. They speak to the troglodytes who refuse to allow people to enjoy an experience in whichever way they see fit, who would tell me that beating the Godskin Duo wasn't legit because I had +23 greatsword with cold imbue, a level 10 mimic with Radahn's sword on it, AND the NPC summon. I'm almost 40, have a full time job, and family so I don't have infinite time to grind and "get gud" which is why I 100% appreciate the game allowing me to "get ok" and still win. (full disclosure, I did cheese Moghwyn by using the seal at the fog wall so I'm not saying I haven't done some strait cheesing)
I am sure that I mentioned that FC's real point is probably what you say it is. That he's criticizing people that delegitimize other people. My main disagreement was that he seems to be saying that "cheese" isn't real.
it's literally written as 'intended' in his tweet. sure we can look past the literal text for the message being conveyed, but not everyone does that, which is the precise reason why social media arguments happen
@@paz1514 Its not even about making excuses, its just he misinterprets Ratatoskrs point (ironically) to defend cowboy when in fact they basically agree and are just arguing about semantics or the definition of what is and isn't "Cheesing" in order to make a point about what is a more valuable or fun experience, which is ultimately subjective and he acknowledges that. LOL.
I remember when darksouls was new, I didn't 'cheese' Ceaseless Discharge by luring him to the fog wall and hitting his fist a few times because the community wasn't sure if that was intentional or not.
Currently, I am playing a Spellblade build with the moonveil, hopefully get access to the Dark Moon Greatsword, all the way Roleplaying with my character, which I intentionally made to look like a Drow from Dungeons and Dragons, and the theme revolves around the Moon. So...I don't really care what people say regarding the cheese and overpoweredness of Moonveil and other thing. I just love the them of Moonveil and I like the change of pace after doing a Quality Build with no magic for my first run (God it hurt, but I did it!). And I look forward to trying out MORE builds after this one! Good vid though! I agree with plenty of things here, Cowboy's tweets too. No real right or wrong way to play, but soem things do constitute in a grey area of play. Regardless, I say just have fun with what you want for the most part. It's a game after all.
I actually found Moonveil on my own (just heard it was somewhere in Caeild.) I stumbled across it cause I kept exploring mines looking for stones. But I had already used tons of material on my ore blade. So I started over. When I used it I feel in love. Also, when I restarted I actually found new areas in the beginning that I missed. THAT was a great feeling.
Hmmmm... I dunno, taht definition sounds fishy, if "cheesing is playing and winning at a game by avoiding to engage with its mechanics" then that would mean that playing devil may cry without trying to do combos or change weapons is cheesing. I think the proper definition might be closer to "DENYING the game a chence to present its mechanics to the player, by exploiting bugs or unintended weak defenses in an opponent" After all, if you do the whole of the game without killing godrick, but then go back to stormveil to kill him in one hit, did you actually cheese him, or did you just *overpower* him? That's a big difference, as overpowering is an intended design aspect of rpgs (especially jrpgs, but it applies to all rpgs)all the way back since the nes dragon quest days if not earlier. The only difference between grinding to level 300 to annihilate any boss vs using azur comet+infinite fp flask is that the latter takes some mental investment and exploration rather than being insanely stubborn at farming a few mobs. And yet grinding to win has never been looked down upon in 40 years of gaming(even if forcing that has been rightfully seen as poor game design in the last decade)
"After all, if you do the whole of the game without killing godrick, but then go back to stormveil to kill him in one hit, did you actually cheese him, or did you just overpower him" it's funny you should say that... that is precisely what I did lol
For me the most devastating nerf was to Radahn. He's still my favorite fight in Elden Ring but beating him pre-nerf was one of my most satisfying accomplishments. Right up there with beating Malenia, beating the tree sentinal right out of the gate, and the first evergaol crucible knight. Oh and Maliketh, that fight is so visually stunning! I like people to play this game however they want because they might like it enough to try runs without summons or other difficulty modifiers, and it just increases the interest in these games as a whole. Edit: Spelling
I remember I spent a good 2 hours dying over and over again fighting Radahn on my first playthrough and feeling so relieved when I finally beat him. On my 2nd playthrough after the patch I killed him first try within like 3 minutes. I really think they nerfed him way too hard and made it too easy which is kind of a shame.
radahn was by no means the most complained about hard boss, but they nerfed him instead of malenia or whatever other lategame boss, which makes me think that they just didn't tune things correctly with respect to their intentions - but that's just speculative what's not speculative is that the meteors were glitched and they didn't mean them to be so nasty, i think
Radahn's meteors in phase 2 were seriously awful with their tracking and damage. He also, for his placement in the game, did too much damage. Compare him to the enemies in Redmane castle and you'll see what I mean. You're not supposed to have 50 vit by that point.
He was definitely over nerfed. I beat him into the floor first try at RL50 power stancing +4 hammers while making mistakes. This is my sand bag character to help my girlfriend with. It had me like "HUH?"
This video is flawed in so many ways, not because it’s poorly made or thought off it’s simply because your version of cheesing just means using the op stuff that a certain build has access to, and this same term can mean something else to others. I agree with fighting cowboy all the way, people just have a sense of acceptance regardless of what the situation is which is the reason why I don’t really care how someone beats a boss or goes through the game. I.E yesterday I beat godfrey for the first time using comet azure and infinite mana pot for the first phase, but this didn’t just immediately get him to second phase, It took 35 percent of his health so I still had to learn his moveset and find the best way to go about the fight moving forward, after 30min of trying I finally beat the guy after memorizing his moveset and finding the best strats. And then there’s malenia, I changed my whole mage build to arcane just to use rivers of blood and mimic to beat her because to me her fight was honestly not fun AT ALL, I had learn her moveset and I could dodge her ash of war attack perfectly most of the time but I wasn’t doing enough damage with my wing of Astel so I went for the “cheese” instead of wasting hours of my life just trying to beat her “the legit way” this whole debate is pointless and nobody should care about it.
I have a simple semantic disagreement. "Cheesing" is using UNINTENDED tactics and exploits to beat a boss. Like shooting the Maneaters in Demons Souls from behind the fog wall. Creative use of intended mechanics, no matter how effective, simply isn't cheese. It's smart, adds variety to playstyles and lets the games own mechanics be the difficulty selection. Also, Comet Azur uses a shit ton of FP in a game that gives you an infinite FP buff. It is literally one of the most obvious uses for said buff. And you also, only listed abilities on melee weapons that were nerfed. Comet Azur was strong as hell and still is, as it wasn't nerfed. Like many other powerful spells. Some spells were even buffed.
No, cheesing in not limited to using something unintended. What you are talking about is called an exploit. One dictionary definition of "cheese" reads: "to win by using a strategy that requires minimal skill and knowledge or that exploits a glitch or flaw in game design" Pretty simple and accurate. Hiding behind a wall and shotting an arrow just to hide before an enemy shoots you back XX amount of times is cheesing (in the games like Elden Ring where enemies always take longer to shoot than you do, ofc it's 100% normal in FPS titles where other players can react and shoot you back before you do, thus introducing a "skill" aspect). Making an enemy fall off the platform when it isnt clearly intended to happen is cheesing. Spamming the same move XX amount of times because it stunlocks and thus gives your opponent no way to react/defend is cheesing. Shooting poison arrows from outside of a boss arena is cheesing. Using a combination of items and attacks that you found on RUclips in one of those cringy videos "How to be an overpowered demigod in Elden Ring and kill every boss and their extended family in 3 seconds while getting all the maidens" without seeing even a fraction of their attacks is cheesing. Climbing to a place where enemies can't reach you and shooting them from that possition is cheesing etc. Every exploit performed on an enemy in order to kill it is cheesing but not all cheesing is an exploit. Obviously not all cheesing is inherently bad though - for example, when in a pinch, randomly finding a spot that you can use to shoot your enemy without getting hit or creating a strong build that goes well together feels rewarding, like you've managed to think outside the box and outsmarted the game. However, searching the internet for ways to cheese every single boss without ever trying to beat it in the intended way, isn't. If someone's default way of playing the game for the first time is to use whatever they can in order to not play the game correctly (actually experience the boss fight, its moveset etc like the devs intended you to) then at this point you can just download a trainer and launch Infinite HP + One Hit Kill features and be done with it.
@@voicey5831 exactly, cheesing is not just limited to exploiting unintended strategies or bugs or whatever. i think it is both your definition of using minimal skill and knowledge or exploits, but also just missing out on actually experiencing, facing the movesets of enemies by using mechanics like actually having to block or dodge attacks and time your attacks, reading them for openings etc. which of course would require more skill and knowledge but that isn't even the point, it's that people miss out on what makes these games so good.
Thats just your own made up definition of cheesing, tbh, cheesing is a way more broad term and used in many other situations that don't fit your description as an exmaple in starcraft cheese is used to refer to stuff like a turret rush or early game zergling rush, they both use intended game mechanics but attempt to avoid the actual core gameplay by ending the fight early before it develops in a longer and more macro heavy game. As other peolpe already stated, cheesing is usually based around using easy cheap strats with high win ratio with quite low effort.
@@Otrsor Is that the official definition? Zerg Rush is an amateur move and pretty easy to defend. That's like people saying edge guarding in super smash bros is cheesy because they arent good at the game.
I... kinda find it funny that spirit ashes are considered cheese? Looking up what the most powerful ones are and bum rushing to get them is cheesing, but like... there are several boss encounters I can think of that feel designed with Spirit ashes in mind. Encounters where it's just useful to have something that can momentarily draw aggro while you're trying to back up. Do I use them? Not really, but I do feel the game design has tried to take all the tools we're given into account. On a different note. Are you considering a video on how awful low level twinking--be it invading or hosting--is from an Elden ring perspective? There are... at least a few key differences between Elden Ring and DS3 that make the PvP very... volatile compared to DS3, and on my second file Limgrave is already infested with scarlet rot and double sepuku bleed spears while the lakes seem to have nothing but ganking hosts... I literally advised my friends trying out the game not to coop until lakes it was so bad with the Limgrave invaders, because I can easily imagine new players quiting over the stuff twinks are using. And in the lakes? Where you get introduced to invasions? How are people supposed to learn it's okay to invade without twinking if everyone's first invasion area is littered with gank squads pulling every trick in the book. I did 10 invasions on that character and found only one real player just playing through the game. Even if it was bad luck, even 5 out of 10 would have been excessive.
I have two bosses left. Melenia & Radagon. Haven’t started with either of the yet as I came to a kind of troubling realization. A lot of the later game fights I just absolutely blew through without bothering to learn anything about how their mechanics worked. Any time I died to a boss more than a couple times, immediately either scarlet rot breath or the +10 mimic came out. I refused to let myself struggle as I had early game. For some reason, the first thing I did was boss rush Margit at SL1 and refuse to leave until I beat him. I must have died 50+ times, but holy shit did it feel fucking awesome to beat him that way. It left me feeling awesome and super excited to get thru the game. Now i’m just kind of dismayed that I had the ability to just put down the fucking hammer and insta win when I wanted to. Missed the opportunity to legit fight OG Radahn, Mohg, Draconic Tree, and a variety of other bosses all that all I did was press L1, run in circles, and let my summon chip away. Ima try and take these two legit to make up for it. May take me a minute but I think itll b worth it. Wish me luck lol
All i gotta say is: Melania of all bosses you decided to play legit 😅 Radagon on the other hand was a lot of fun so you are definitely gunna be rewarded for your efforts
Exactly how i felt, except i bashed myself against the crucible knight evergaol instead of margit. Once i hit liurnia of the lakes, i started to achieve the elden ring power bloat and dunk through bosses without learning their mechanics, and it made me really sad. I intend to play through again with a weaker weapon to just get a better feel for the game.
The one big part of spirit summons I love is actually getting to feel like a necromancer summoning skeletons. It just adds that little bit of RP for me. Or someone playing a beast master with the beastial incantations using one of the animal summons. I think it makes it more fun. At the end of the day, the very period on the end of the sentence, the direction to which all roads lead is that this is a game meant to be fun.
Wall of text ahead, hopefully it comes off with the tone I want it to have because I think there's a lot to learn about game design and the art here. I respectfully disagree with your point about the "experience being better if you don't cheese," primarily because of your own argument for locking the game's difficulty. In previous videos, you've argued that, (paraphrasing,) the game will not get an easy mode, because even if we disagree on this matter, something about this kind of experience draws our crowd in. We don't have to agree on the validity or exclusivity of the experience, because the end result is that this is what the game devs chose to make. I hope I've represented that argument well, because it's one I fundamentally agree with. Compromising the difficulty would bring fundamental game design changes and otherwise muddy the game's ludo-narrative. However, a version of that same argument is applicable here, I think, for the cheesy crowd. Your advice that engaging with the game's mechanics makes for a better experience obviously comes from a place of love, both for the games and your desire to spread the good experience you had to a broader community. However, I don't think your advice is fair to apply to as large of a portion of the audience as you think, because many who have heard it were confronted with the game designs pushing them one way, and felt an equal or stronger push towards cheesing by the same game's design. To paraphrase your old argument: if the game were designed to be better with the hard mechanics, there would not be an audience for negating those mechanics. This is a game where you may not only git gud, you may alternatively git smart. And I can cite many instances of the game's mechanics pushing you towards the git smart angle. Elden Ring, I believe, is a very well-designed game. It teaches lessons like "come back when you're stronger" and "that strategy won't work on this enemy" with frightening efficiency. One of the ways to engage with this game, which has not been in other fromsoft games, is that using collaboration and all the tools at your disposal results in overcoming challenges that you were not just inadequate for, but INCAPABLE of conquering on their own terms. Just as the locked difficulty is a game mechanic whose results and player engagement speak for themselves, the appeal of overlevelling or skipping mechanics you do not have the patience or skill for speaks for itself. Your advice has been heard, attempted, and summarily discarded by large swaths of the game's audience. I believe this is a testament to the game's design rather than any of us being right about the optimal experience. To quote MightyKeef, "How they gon' give us accessibility options and then patch them after we bought the game!?"
There’s also the whole “choose your own difficulty via your build” aspect to all souls games. Sorcery has always been the “ez mode” and pure melee has always been hard mode. The game is only as difficult as you make it and saying utilizing the tools they gave you is cheezing rubs me the wrong way
I totally agree. I wouldn't say that cheesing a boss or two has significantly impacted my experience with the other fromsoftware games, as I was just happy to beat them and continue on my journey. What souls games and RPGs in general have taught me is to use every tool in my disposal to win, otherwise I could get easily stuck in a cycle of being completely underpowered and stuck in a hard place. However I got a really bad sinking feeling playing Elden Ring when I first beat Morgott much more easily than I expected, and wiped the floor with Rykard. By using my upgraded mimic tear, and frankly being pretty overleveled, i had pretty much sabotaged my first experience with these bosses and their surrounding areas. I vowed not to use spirit ashes anymore and thankfully the later areas were definitely no pushovers, but my point is whether breaking the game balance or not can ruin your enjoyment of the game or not really depends on a lot of things that I don't know. It really depends
No one suggests you can't overlevel to make a part easier. No one believes you have to beat all 92 elden lords and also Ronald "The Sinner" McDonald to be able to call it a "Good run". That's not what cheese is. Nor is cheese "getting smart". Getting smart is to find an exploit, a flaw, and to abuse it. I'd argue that little strat with the rotten Commander in Caelid is a good example of both Cheesing him AND getting smart. They noticed he was spawned in and ready to fight, and you didn't even have to start the fight to attack him, but once you attacked him the "fight started", so they climbed the tallest tree, got the biggest bow, and peppered him to a very slow and painful death. That's smart, you saw an opening in the environment and found a win. Finding a flask of infinite magic, then finding the biggest, spammiest, easiest to use spell that will 1 shot the boss, then mashing R1 before the boss moves, attacks, or reacts in any way... that doesn't require a knowledge of the fight, OR the environment, OR the weaknesses of the boss, OR which magics would be best used in the fight... is not getting smart. It's robotic optimization. You don't see the boss, you only see a health bar at the bottom, Comet Azur covers the rest. You don't see mechanics, the boss is dead before Tres Duo Unus Nihil or any other phase 2 mechanic that most players struggled against. You don't have to build HP. You don't even have to build FP, since the infinite is the only thing you care about. You don't cleverly assign your points for "just enough endurance to equip this set and combine it with this greatsword." You *game start, max int, grab big wand, grab potion, play cookie clicker for 300 hours*. The truth of the matter is, the fact that the advices of veterans has fallen on deaf ears only shows a great amount of painful truth in the statement "GIven the choice, a player will optimize the fun out of a game." No, no matter how hard you try to convince me or anyone else, no one will believe you feel rewarded and proud that you beat the last boss, when your strategy to beat him was the exact same, beat for beat, as defeating the second to last, and third to last, and fourth to last, and fifth to last, and sixth to last, all the way back to the fourth boss you've ever fought, the moment you found the magical potion of "I win." Getting smart is a strategy. I tried the Comet Azur thing. Beat a few bosses with it. It wasn't fun. I didn't have any interaction with it, and after I decimated Morgott with it, I sighed and simply refused to use it again. Every other boss I fought from that point was without the magical bullshit laser. Intelligence is fun. It IS about getting smart, not getting good. It is NOT about one button wins, that's cheese, and you can find that in any build. I had to learn when to use Loretta's Mastery to shoot some arrows, because the charge took a long time and sometimes the boss was too far for any other spell but I had to learn quickly that the boss' gap closers will punish me for sitting still and barraging them. I had to learn when to use Great Glintstone Shard, and when to avoid using it because the boss is dodging everything I throw at it (Malenia), in which case I use Magic Glintblade, because they dodge the cast, but not the actual projectile itself, since it's delayed. I had to learn some of the intelligence weapons, like Astel's little Nebula Wing, or Gideon's All-Knowing Staff, because sometimes spells just come out too slow. I *still* didn't have to learn uptime windows and perfect dodge rolling attacks, I *still* didn't have to worry about gitting gud. But I had to get smart. I had to play properly. I had 12 memory slots, and I didn't have to use only 1. Did you know that Founder's Stars is amazing against large target enemies like the Elden Beast or Dragonlord Placidusax? Did you know that Ambush Shard can catch Niall a lot, since he limps? Did you know that Rock Fling is absolutely amazing at far ranged tracking when you don't have time for a Loretta's Mastery, and if you use it regularly enough in a fast-paced fight you know you have little time in (MALENIA), you can stagger the enemy boss pretty regularly, twice or thrice? And at that point, you can use a magic-infused Misericorde to deal real damage? Did you know that damage-reducing Wondrous Physicks and an Ironjar Perfume allows you to get off some SERIOUS damage using those Carian sword spells against bosses? And that you don't have to self-activate Carian Retaliation on your shield using the Glintstone Pebble cheese exploit, you can just USE IT AGAINST BOSSES THAT HAVE MAGIC LIKE RADAGON OR RENNALA OR GIDEON OR THE ELDEN BEAST? Probably not, you learned that all of it is pointless because you can just chug chug, terra magicka, comet. Because you see victory as the only goal, so things that won't get the victory as easily are pointless. To quote DJ Khaled, "Congratulations. You played yourself."
I can't agree more. For me, the moment a friend of mine, who was playing a mage build, called me up on discord to show me his Comet Azur + Flask of Wondrous Physick combo that he found while playing blind, the excitement and joy in his voice as he showed it off to me by blasting Black Gargoyle Kindred off the face of the Earth, that moment was exactly what Elden Ring is all about. It's about discovering something new and incredible and using it to overcome something big and scary. Sometimes you do that my bashing your head against the wall of a boss to learn their exact attack patterns, by buying a shackle from Patches and crippling a difficult boss, by using an 'overpowered' spell, and sometimes by doing a cool 2v2 duel against some Crucible Knights with your mimic tear, where you sync up together and absolutely smash some dudes. All of those things are amazing, intended and valid ways to play the game. Some of them might be cheesing, depending on your definition, but none of them deserve any ounce of derision.
But they didn’t patch comet azure so that kind of defeats your argument. Cheesing is shooting mohg from outside the arena or glitching a boss to die from gravity (giant)/or turn off the AI (mohg/Elden beast). If you make it to level 600 and a boss is like fighting throwaway mobs is that cheesing? No it’s not, you invested your time and stats to get to that point. If you go balls to the wall INT while staying in a reasonable level to the zone and can do comet azure to kill bosses, I bet there’s other things that are challenging that aren’t to others because of your stat distribution.
I have always seen the term “cheesing” used to mean exploiting bugs to gain an unintended advantage, and infinite FP + Comet Azure (or whatever other OP tactic) is most definitely not that. As Fighting Cowboy said, it’s just using the tools the game gives you. In my book, that’s categorically different than cheesing, even if both allow you to circumvent a boss’s mechanics. Separate to the question of what is or isn’t cheesing though, I agree that one can get more out of the game by engaging with the mechanics of the encounters, but circumventing them is still legitimate.
yeah I agree with this. comet azure ,while you can get to it right from the start, still takes quite a bit of grinding and knowledge of certain items to unlock. It's clearly a late game item. now you can call it unbalanced or poor design but I think that's different from saying that the player has done something unintended
Cheesing has never ment exploiting bugs. Exploiting is the term for exploiting bugs. Ratatoskr is correct. When you play a fighting game and some one uses combos that stun locks you to the point you can't fight back, they didn't exploit a bug, they engauged in a manner that removed you from the game, thus they did not engauge organically. You are completely wrong on this.
Part 2: ruclips.net/video/DHbpPPeNkZ4/видео.html
You’re the man
Nothing wrong with gatekeeping...we've seen to many communities get taken over by outsiders.
Wonderful! Now I know that you're deceitful. I must click the bell notification icon, otherwise I fear that I wont be able to watch the video, since you can delete it at any time, as you've proven previously. If that happens again, I'll miss your true and honest opinion.
I find this curious, because I almost never click that Bell, no matter how much I like that RUclipsr.
personally think its ok to play the game any way you like it but its also fun to experiment with new things
@@eliudelcastillo2350 Now that’s a hot take! He provides a video for clarification, labels it PART 2, references his first video…and you think…he’s being deceitful?
Sir, can you please show me on this doll where Ratatoskr has hurt you?
My current feeling about this game is to play it anyway you want as long as you personally are having a good time... who cares what any other gamers thinks.
Yeah, I have a friend that finished the game and is going to make a new game (ina conoletely new save file), I told him I didn't understand his decision, why starting a new game when you can start a new game +? In my opinion is better in all ways. So I don't share his opinion, but I respect his decision. Let people play the game however they want. Same goes for the weapons or spells people uses.
@@Dekross I would rather start a new save file than go to NG+ because I'm most likely bored with the playstyle I used and want to try something else, and actually gathering the gear and placing the stats for a build over time is my favorite part of an RPG
I would argue this is true, so long as it does not directly disrupt another player's experience, such as twinking invasions.
@@Dekross You can't truely experience Margit if you aren't below level 20.
@@malnourishd1 level 0 bro 😎
Here's my point of view that no one asked for:
I enjoy grinding levels and feeling overpowered. I also want to look up everything so I don't miss any items or quests. Playing the game in this way maximizes the fun for me.
That being said, someone who beats the whole game on level 10 with a club deserves to feel more accomplished than me. That sounds like an absolutely miserable experience, but you definitely got to interact with every bosses move set. We both maximize our fun and we should respect each other's point of view.
Filthy casul
I agree with this, what's fun to me with the game is having the option to get so strong I feel powerful and then my ego gets shattered when I get to fight Malekith.
@Raskolnikov Well put.
I get this so well, but I also get the _"why not look everything up for the 2nd playthrough and just have that one and only chance of finding things on your own"_ argument Rata made on his 'get naked' video.
Overleveling and looking everything up sounds miserable to me. No discovery, no challenge, no mystery, nothing. Just a hollow experience. But if it's fun for you, that's fine. However I do think there's a happy medium between trivializing the game and doing it at level 10. In fact the happy medium is pretty much the way the devs expect most people to play on a 1st run. Not level 10, but also not overleveled. And I think that happy medium makes more sense.
I see cheesing as jumping over the lord of blood's wall and just wacking away while he stands there. But making a really powerful build that can destroy bosses is just another play style
I don’t see dual cold katanas as cheesing even tho they melt bosses because you have to respect the bosses attacks and learn how to dodge and when to punish. Summoning a friend to rack up damage and pull a boss’s agro as u spam magic from afar, or run in to get the occasional hit is cheesing tho. And when I hear my friends complain about how poorly made and stupid a boss is when I’m the one fighting it gets on my nerves.
@@jasemayfield6853 yeah you can’t brag about beating a boss if you had two other people do it for you. But if you spec into 60+ int and made an op build, you’re just smart
True, though there are certain things that are simply broken and need tuning balance wise. But overall, a good build is a good build, and it should give you advantages.
@@jasemayfield6853 Dude that's just multiplayer. Different experience and not cheesing, someone still had to put in the swings.
@@jasemayfield6853 If you use overpovered weapons you don't need to respect anything if you can kill it in a few hits. As long as you don't get oneshoted of course. In fact I believe that is exactly the reason why FROM increased dmg values in late game so much. They don't want players to cheese their bosses.
I’ve always thought of it like this: “the boss is using whatever it has at its disposal so Ill just use whatever I have.” At the end of the day I’m just playing the way I want and I encourage everyone else to do so to.
Play the game accordingly to the experience you want to have.
Sounds good but is not as satisfying, I mean I was happy to 5 jump malenia with double seppuku twin blade and mimic but it was nowhere as satisfying as when I legit 1v1 her without any cheese or gimmick in NG+
I would recommend people to fight each boss at least once in a legit 1v1 later on in their play.
@@herohonda4183 Good for you. Thankfully, no one gives a fuck
@@herohonda4183 be me
>played second Souls like game ever
>was using RoB and BHS since 1.02
>1.03 dropped and oopsie now i'm cheeser and something that normal human would call like "He didnt have a father that for sure"
>started new character , went fire/streight
>Get trough pain and suffering of unversetile build
>Got to Malenia
>Died more than any youtuber ever did
> Respected to arcane/dex back anyway
The Elden Lord is supposed to be OP anyway so, as far as I’m concerned, the Tarnished rampaging their way across the Lands Between is lore-friendly
@@glassplanet5624 “supposed to be” the Elden ring isn’t supposed to be anything, the whole idea of souls games is that we are underpowered nobody compared to the rest of the world but still prevail through sheer fucking will.
Miyazaki likes the very human idea of being born a nobody but being a somebody through hard work, skills and dedication. This is seen in all his games
My problem is that the definition of “fighting a boss normally” is very limited. I think the reason FS nerfed some powerful tools (and buffed some of the less powerful spells) is that they want the player to be overpowered in a variety of ways. They don’t want hoarfrost stomp or mimic tear to always be the answer.
A good example are some of the gank bosses. With Erdtree Burial Watchdog duo, you can throw a couple crystal darts to berserk the watchdogs and get them to kill each other to make it a 1v1 fight. Demi-Human Chiefs are in a room filled with mobs that can swarm you and even kick the ass of otherwise powerful summons like Godrick Soldiers, except for wandering nobles, who can swarm and stun lock one of the chiefs to free to player to clear out the mobs. A final example would be Commander Naill, where the player can throw a betwitching beach to get to Naill’s summons to turn on him.
The point of these examples is to show that many of the ways you can fight bosses don’t fall under the definition used for “fighting normally,” and would be considered “cheesing” by some. However, these actually engage with the game mechanics more since you’re taking advantage of boss characteristics that a dodge and punish melee focus never would (Watchdogs as multiple easily frenzied husks, the Demi-chiefs as a staggerable hoard, Naill’s summons as spirits).
Again, FS’s patches have pointed towards this since they don’t want players to just use SoNaF and Mimic Tear, but to experiment with the other summons, and the mass of craftable items.
This is a consistent design choice going back to DeS, where every enemy had exploitable weaknesses (to an almost comical level), whether than be Fire, magic, piercing attacks, bows, great flame shield, etc.).
These are fantasy adventure games at their core, and Elden Ring has leaned the most into the adventure part, and part of that is finding and experimenting with new and silly ways to fight back against a cruel world
Agree and as example i would like to focus on mimic tear which was op before patch because a mage could summon it and the tear would have tank levels of HP.
Mimic tear is at a perfect balance right now, I beat the game with only 9 mind and up until i got infinite FP (75% thru), mimi was my only option other than jellyfish or wolfs but based on the boss i would equip different gear summon and then swap gear for myself as need to complement. If i hadn't already been tanky my self mimic would have no hp and no defense but if i tried to cheat its intent and cross equip some "op" spells well it ended up not doing very much dmg if any because i wouldn't have done much either since most of my mage stats stayed at base lvl and i would boost stats to be able to use a spell so I could try and force mimic to use. Even though i mostly used mimic for mid thru late game. Its balance would have me thinking about not just my gear but its gear before i summoned, adding a nice RTS element.
A lot of optional bosses punish rolling, parry, AND block but instantly break down with just two targets in the arena
Uhhh, not sure what ur getting at, but I would go out on a limb to say that using mimic tear and that frost move aren’t the intended or normal “answer” to beating or fighting a boss. I think there is a wide spectrum between cheesing and doing the most optimal, efficient or intended strat
I was honestly surprised how many DS1 bosses had gimmicks which void the difficulty. People act like “casuals” are new, but this crap has been around for a decade
I find the easy/cheesy debate so interesting. I took your advice from a while ago and started my first play through as the Wretch. Gradually found strength and faith based stuff, and then eventually respecced into a Paladin samurai. It felt like a very natural progression.
But, I think, things like infinite FP+kamehameha aren't there specifically to make bosses easier, they're there to make you feel like a powerful fucking wizard.
Summon ashes aren't there specifically to make bosses easier, they're there because co-op is such an important part of the game, that they wanted you to be able to experience it even if your friends aren't online.
I was level 135 when fighting Mohg and even with a +10 mimic tear, I still had to fight strategically to win. Even with +10 on one of the best summon items, it took me like 15 tries and it still required me to learn movesets and strategize. Though obviously there are bosses that get absolutely melted by any co-oping whatsoever.
To me, souls and Elden Ring are role-playing games. That's why I don't mind people looking up sheet to go for their build, cuz one of the most satisfying things is having your build finished and playing the character the way you want to. And if that means that the end result of their build is boss-melting badassery either in the form of magic, incantations or melee combat, then that makes sense right? By the end of the epic fantasy series, the good guys is usually mega powerful.
To me, moreso than game balance, that's the experience the game is trying to give you.
Mimic Tear made my Malenia win far more satisfying than I ever could have expected. See, as a mage, that thing can't solo shit. But what it can do is coordinate with me. It can time a perfect staggerlock with the Spinning Weapon staff ash to let me rush in, or synchronize Wing of Astel casts for that poise buildup. And it can do what made the fight feel awesome - double down on Adula's Moonblade. Being perfectly in sync with the Mimic for a few precious seconds and watching the scariest boss in the game melt to a coordinated attack is incredible.
I don't know how the hell it nuked Goddess of Rot before dying, though. I think its AI randomly decided to finally use my Dark Moon Greatsword. But whatever insane kamikaze attack it pulled off let me win there too.
Honestly? Worth it. Sure it did 2/3 of phase 2 through inscrutable wizardry. But for a few brief moments there actually was just straight up two of me fighting up close and personal, and damned if that doesn't rock.
Personally, I think a large part of the issue with "cheesing" is the role of the internet and overpowered build guides one can find online. If you're someone who found all the elements of the comet azure strat yourself, put them all together in your own head and thought "is this gonna work?" and then nuked a boss, you've absolutely earned that victory 100%.
However, if you looked up online how to make the build, followed a guide on getting all the items and putting them together properly, then you've just robbed yourself of the chance to invent that strategy yourself, and it also makes any boss victories you have with it feel a bit... hollow. Like, someone else did all the work for you. The hardest part of the comet azure strat is to find all the items and make the build. If you've essentially cheated that part with a guide, you've left yourself with no room to add your own input to the gameplay. You might as well just watch someone else do it.
Wretchtard
@@NabsterHax and that does affect you in what way exactly? who are you to judge someone elses experience?
@Johnny Millar See you are not exactly supposed to be a boss-melting-badass in this franchise, that is why it is kinda strange. And if you look at the interview with Miyazaki it is generally more about overcoming challenges, than roleplay per se. And if you just straight up skip those it seems not to be in the interest of the developer (I think).
Other fact, there are a lot of first trys which end up with a katana+(wisdom/faith) build. Problem is more, that the combo is pretty strong and you will have no problem with the bosses (except for maybe 2-3). This doesn´t exactly mean that there are a lot of valid options, but rather that some options are just so strong that a lot of people flock to it. That is more or less bad design normally.
Which, to be fair can only be seen if you try a lot and multiple times. And probably won´t be an issue in your first run. Pretty much my experience btw. First run was a lot of fun, second and third build kind of frustrated me comparably more than giving me those nice little endorphine shots.
I respect where you're coming from, just like I'm sure you will for me, but yeah to me cheesing bosses the first time through is more rewarding. It's one of the reasons I don't want these games to get an easy mode too, I like working to achieve my own easy mode, and having this perception of "It's the game versus me, and I'll do all I possibly can to cheese the fuck out of it". There's a high sense of joy and smugness in trivializing the games encounters, and it's something that to me only the Souls games really enable.
I can then still go in afterwards and do challenge runs to experience the game in a more normal way, and get the joy of overcoming difficulty through my own efforts. But that first playthrough is the only one where I can really feel that sense of childlike joy of completely destroying a game I barely know how to play.
I agree. Souls games are heralded as these tough games which is why I love when my builds destroy the games difficulty
Yeah that playstyle sounds fun assuming you don't look stuff up. I don't really see the point of looking up a "THIS WEAPON + ASH OF WAR COMBO IS OP" video on RUclips and copying that.
Different strokes for different folks. Ive always enjoyed the feeling of getting better by fighting something beyond me, with sekiro as a great example. There is ofc some cheese in sekiro, but most of it extends into "advanced cheese" territory instead of just having an optimized build.
I kinda agree. I would give the same advice: "dont look stuff up". Going in blind is a great way to enjoy the game. But I wouldnt even advice "dont cheese". If they did not look stuff up and found cheeses for bosses, that is a great sense of accomplishment since nobody told them how to achieve that. I love this game and I love that people want to play it
Going blind for quests and shit? No thanks lmfao
But at the same time the game encourages you to look stuff up through messages and bloodstains left by other players. Even if you don't read them, their positions give away secrets, hidden dangers, cheese spots.
@@LordShrub yeah I dont see this as looking stuff up, it is by design
Skkippers be like:
I don’t have enough time to go into this game blind. Lol. Especially for those long ass side quests. Nah.
All wins are legitimate.
Someone should tell that to bosses with post fight dialogue
“The one who stands in the end is righteous!”
@@yamnbam4346 Happened to me with Maliketh.
Except if you summon Dungeater Puppet.
Wrong
The only thing I might add is:
Everyone has their own thresholds for frustration. And everyone has their own thresholds where throwing your body at something just isn't fun anymore. I think the best experience is go in blind and figure it out yourself, but sometimes it just doesn't come. If the game stops being fun for frustration's sake, it's cool to look something up so you can get back to having fun.
I completely agree. Not everyone has unlimited time to replay the same boss or quest. People have kids, jobs, responsibilities. Should they not be able to enjoy the game they paid for?
I think they should do whatever they want to make the game fun, since it was their $50 spent.
However, I like the idea of working within the games mechanics.
this is very true, i spent the first 1 and a half hours of the game grinding out the tree sentinel fight as wretch, and loved it, spent 5 minutes in the dual crucible knight fight extremely overleveled and spiked my controller for the first time in my life
my perspective is that there's a lot of value in fully engaging with good boss design, and bad design is usually better cheesed than not
Completely agree. I play everything blind the first time through but if after a frustrating amount of deaths I still can't kill the boss then I'm looking up a good strategy because it just becomes a chore is no longer fun.
@@chriss4855 My issue is bosses that once felt fresh, by endgame are reused, causing them to feel far less special or unique and rather just tougher mobs you have to deal with.
This is not about spirit summons. This is not about spirit summons. This is not about spirit summons.
Spirit summons are easy mode...and thats ok
We all know it is... and that they are pussys!!!!
@@Nirv2267 but poorly implemented mode
@@Nirv2267 I use Lattena, she does damage but does not move so that means she won't usually draw a bosses aggro. It's not damage that makes coop and summoning op, it's just the fact that the AI can not handle fighting more than one person.
I am new to From Software games. I do use the Spirit Summons BUT, ONLY after I have tried to do the boss solo.
In most cases, I completely engage with the mechanics of fromsoft bosses, save for the cases in which I think the mechanics are badly designed (e.g. bed of chaos). I have no remorse for cheesing bed of chaos. As for things like summons being cheesing, I think that's a flawed viewpoint because summons were clearly intended to be used on bosses (signs even appear outside the boss arenas in most fromsoft games). To not use summons isn't to do things "the right way" but to incur an additional, self-imposed challenge.
Yep. Why people think that everyone must fight bosses in a harder way to be “legitimate” is beyond me. Take their logic to its extreme, and only level 1, no gear boss kills should count as “legitimate”. It’s a silly and immature attitude.
While I see nothing wrong with summoning, it does let you not engage with the boss' mechanics. Having a boss aggro away from you make it way easier to pull off attacks, especially for a mage. Again, I don't mind people using spirit ashes or summoning. Hell, I've been helping people with Malenia myself.
@@asianfidance2224 Summons can allow you to temporarily disengage, but they're far from an out. I should mention all my summons in previous souls games have been AI, so they aren't anywhere near smart enough to carry. I also summoned the most in DS2, which had the most group boss fights as far as I'm aware.
@@getmeouttahere7638 Iron Tarkus would like to have a word with you... 😅
I still feel that beating a boss with ashes is less satisfactory than beating it on your own. I'm still bad at the game so i keep summoning, but in the end i feel less proud compared to a good fight with a series of dodges, parries and repostes. I also don't have excessive free time to play, so i keep summoning.
Hmm. I take "cheesing" to mean "using exploits." Figuring out infinite comet azur is, I think, a bit different than making demon of hatred jump off the map in Sekiro.
What about stunlocking lady butterfly with dodge, attack, dodge, attack until her health is gone?
Beating a boss in a completely unintended way, like leading them off a cliff so they instantly die from fall damage, is cheesing in my opinion, NOT using spells and skills that the developers put into the game themselves
its ok. OP is obviously a melee user.
@@JordanII. I think that depends if some combos of weapons/items/spells are far more broken then intended, at some point I think that could be said to be cheese. Remember that cheese is not a negative thing
@@adrianeden8977 I kinda think it depends. If you just happen to figure that out for yourself, I think it's great. If, on the other hand, you watched the Tyrannicon video about it or something, then that's probably a cheese (or, at the very least, cheesy; full disclosure, I cheesed the fuck outta that Lone Shadow in the monkey area outside of Ashina...fuck those guys).
And this suggests there's something relevant about figuring out the thing for yourself vs. emulating a thing you saw on RUclips or a guide. I think that oughtta be included in our future discussions of cheesing.
6:50 I agree, generally, with the sentiment... However, "Normal" for you is not "Normal" for everyone else. If someone finds, randomly, Tiche and +10's her after a boss fight or two, and seeing how strong she is... Then they use Tiche in every subsequent boss fight because she's efficient in overcoming the challenge... Is that cheese? Are they playing abnormally, even if they had zero knowledge that Tiche is considered a meta spirit ash?
There is no "Normal" way to play any souls game beyond "No abusing exploits like boss skips". If someone, playing blindly, comes to the conclusion that using a certain set up is their best bet at victory, then they'll use it. You might say a "Normal" way to play is to NOT use these items, as they make it so you don't "Engage" with boss mechanics, but for this random hypothetical individual the "Normal" way to play is a mage build that sits at the back while summoned players or spirit ashes handle the melee side of things.
I do get the point you're making, Rata... But I think Cowboy's remark, while poorly worded, wasn't aimed at players like you. It was aimed at people who genuinely, truly believe that you did not beat a boss if you didn't beat it solo with no ashes and no magic.
EDIT: Watched part 2, and he clarifies some things. I'll keep my post here because I'm weird like that, but I do agree with his sentiments, now that they've been cleared up.
I would change the wording so that "Normal" isn't the word used, but "Standard" is. It's pretty "Standard" that people play souls like games as you described unless they are trying to challenge themselves. I always look for what equals less effort for bosses in my gameplay because I don't want to learn patterns and mechanics. There's so many enemies in these games, and I'm unwilling to put this amount of effort into the game. That's me, though.
Newer players or more casual players play the games because they're interesting and challenging. That doesn't mean they want to do speed runs or lvl 1 runs in them. The "Standard" player isn't going to learn parry windows to do no hit runs, they're going to use the ridiculous sword they found that shoots a beam or a wave of fire because it's effective and efficient. Just like those death builds people were running for pvp. Those people weren't the regular pvp crowd that does roll catches and bait attacks to get you to swing so they can feel you out. They were randoms that saw an exploit that made you win and used it.
TL;DR: Essentially, players are going to use whatever is the most effective.
@@naezjinra You get it. Rata sorta covers this in his second part, basically saying "Play how you want", but adding on that one should do so blindly, if it's their first playthrough. That's logic I can agree with.
Makes the discovery of strong weapons, or abilities all the better, aye?
This is my first FS game and I’m slowly working thru it. I started as a melee type and then got super attracted to magic and am now drifting towards a magic/melee hybrid. However, I’m trying to make my magic first and melee almost as a last resort. If I start 3 shotting bosses I’m not gonna feel bad or like I’m cheesing because I am playing it blindly for the most part. I’ve had friends suggest things here and there but otherwise it’s MY play through and I’m adapting as I learn more.
Yeah but if it kills the boss in two seconds and all you had to do was press two buttons then that person will have skipped a part of the intended game. Which is engaging in the bosses mechanics. At least for a little. And that itself has a different meaning to everyone. It just come down to how you feel about that encounter. Did YOU feel like you cheated the game a little bit? Or did you legitimately have a good time for those two whole seconds. And even if you did there would be literally no way to reset time and go back do the boss a different way and then see which one you enjoyed better. Lol cheesing is just a basic term to say you might have gotten more value if you engaged more.
Nah. If a game from a developer that is notorious for making "hard" games is seeming easy and bosses are dying too fast... You're doing it wrong. A game with almost no concrete story and little to no direction is also not supposed to have stupidly easy combat encounters. What would be the point? The point of these games is supposed to be overcoming the challenges and the difficult and complex boss fights. If you remove that, what are you even playinf? A 3rd person MMORPG with a shitty story
This game is really f’n hard at times. I have zero qualms about using all of the tools and combinations of tools at my disposal.
Edit: Just so it's clear, I'm still on my first playthrough. I've done pretty much everything, killed Malenia and I've just killed Bernahl in Crumbling Farum Azula. I've been using a nightrider flail with a frost ash for build up, but I use a greatshield / guard counter strategy. No cheese, but I don't mind using my mimic tear.
as Josh from RageGamingvideos puts it "Considering how many BS ways this game punishes you, I will use every advantage at my disposal, regardless of how "OP" it is!"
@@deinonychus1948 all facts
The only cheesing in Elden Ring is abusing exploits and glitches, I good one to point out right now is the Carian/Thop's WA glitch that can one shot even the toughest bosses. Or the insta-death glitch that was patched out recently.
Cowboy is the only soulsborne source I trust.
@@deinonychus1948 how does it punish you tho
I don’t necessarily think I’d call cheese things “from software catering to the masses” per se, I like to think of it as them realizing the absolutely ridiculous amount of content and bosses in this game as compared to their other titles. Fighting the same boss 20-50 times because you wanna bare bones it is kinda crazy to do when there’s probably 100+ bosses in the game. I think they just wanted to ensure that you could have a more steady progression and only skip bosses if you truly needed to. Yes the pure blood Souls og’s can probably knock them out in less than 20-50 times, but they are also creative minds that want more people to enjoy their hard work and passion, not rage quit their masterpiece. I’m 160 hours in and at the mountaintop of the giants. I’m a mage and just got mimic ashes like 20 hours ago. I use summons all the time, but spend extra time exploring each area as much as I can now.
I also explore as much as I can. I search every nook and cranny. I also just got to the mountaintops of the giants region, first playthrough, and have 240 hours in the game.
I replied to someone else that we need to differentiate between "cheesing" and "easy mode". Cheesing is using exploits to avoid actually engaging enemies. Hitting enemies through a wall, or being just outside their tether range so they continually reset without ever being able to engage the player, for example.
Then there are "easy mode" tactics, like the spirit summons, comet azur, etc., where I agree with what you said. I believe FromSoft put these mechanics in the game to help people choose their own difficulty, so to speak. They didn't add difficulties to the game, because people already have control over how difficult their own experience is.
For instance, people don't have to use spirits to fight bosses if they don't want to, which results in greater challenge. But spirits are there for those who want to beat the bosses a bit more easily, so they can get back to exploring the game world.
A player can use various mechanics in the game to make an encounter or engagement easier, but that's not the same as cheesing. Cheesing is circumventing an encounter, where the enemy literally _can not_ engage the player.
@@SkiesTurnedGrey good take
For each person playing these games there's a different way to do it that feels best for them. I've been fighting a certain boss over the course of four days, for a couple hours each evening after work. I fought the 1st phase on my own, and the 2nd phase with Ashen summon. I am certain that I could've beat it on my own all the way through with enough time. But the feeling of accomplishment and pure joy I felt when I finally beat it was absolutely amazing. My roommate heard me shouting and started playing "We are the Champions" when I left my room. And just like I decided to at least beat phase 1 one my own and felt good about my accomplishment, there will be people who found a much easier (cheesier) method, felt like a god while doing it and enjoyed that just as much. Just in a different way. As long as you come out of this game feeling good for having played it, there's nothing wrong about the way you did.
Yea I had to come to terms with myself cus people said I was playing on easy mode cus I mained a mage my first ply through. I’d never played a souls game so sorry if I wanted to start off with an easier play style. But by the time I got to the end game I was getting damn near one shot so it’s really give and take. Some bosses are super easy with a mage and some are almost impossible. Regardless I still enjoyed every minute of my mage build
@@317NEETz Exactly what I'm talking about. As long as you had a good time, it's all good. I think the main point of this video is that some people run the risk of ruining their experience by choosing options that ultimately bore them. Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game, as the quote goes
@@317NEETz mage isnt necessarely easy. I find that str end vig monsters are easier. I often get one shot with my mage but my tank is much more forgiving
This is me with Melania and Margitt, other's were cheesed or I was too overleveled and ended up watching my ash summons fighting them which is to me a fun thing to do.
@Ben Ten I think his issue, that he was addressing in this video, is with people who cheese because they can and therefore think they have to, but ultimately bore themselves in the process and think less of the game as the result. Which is something else entirely than cheesing because you enjoy feeling like a god and having fun doing it.
the problem is that in elden ring, having the best possible experience that we advocate for (not "cheesing" the boss) requires you to intentionally play suboptimally, intentionally handicap yourself. "that build is too busted, bosses become a joke", "this summon is busted", "this spell is busted", etc, but ideally, these things should not be in conflict, the most optimal way to play should also be the most fun & valuable.
in elden ring, the optimal path to victory is to pull up to the boss with a busted build, use a summon to draw aggro, and wreck their shit. you can choose not to do this because the "fair fight" is what you're after, but as a player i find this hard to stomach. i want to play optimally and utilize every advantage at my disposal. to make matters worse, the bosses aren't really balanced for mano e mano "fair fights" like in Dark Souls 3, they do insane damage especially in the lategame, because they must accommodate the player's potential access to broken builds. there is no "hey im not using summons or magic i just want to fight with my sword like in Dark Souls 3, can you please rebalance all the bosses" button
unfortunately, if you say "no summons, no broken shit," at some point you have to arbitrarily draw a line, i.e. this spell is "too busted" but this one is "within acceptable parameters" based on subjective opinion. so if i have a fundamental problem with elden ring (which i love btw and i still think it might be the GOAT), its that in a way we've lost what sekiro exemplified in its boss fights. where it's purely on you to improve your fundamental knowledge of the game's combat mechanics, and learn the specific boss's moves, in order to win
Yep, and everything you just said is why elden ring is a giant smash success. Don't get me wrong, I love this game, it's probably my favorite in the series. But, I think we are at a tipping point, where, if they continue to push future games into an even more accessible difficulty range, we might lose the "soul" of the souls series.
Wouldn't it be a kind of beautifully ironic set of circumstances though? Dark souls, a series all about great kingdoms rotting, enters its golden age with the release of elden ring, only to slowly rot away with worse and worse releases afterward..
It's not the future I want, but damn, it would be poetic. All of us fans would slowly lose hope and become hollow.
@@cabbagedemon5944 yeah man I agree, I just had the thought about dark souls following the path of its own story and thought it was a cool idea. But, I believe that Miyazaki still has plenty of soul left to tend the flame. He'll keep putting out bangers for sure.
i also think it’s because there’s a big mindset on people thinking “Soulsborne is the hardest game series of all time!!!” So once they find out that the game isn’t really that hard, they get upset or smth. So they intentionally use the weakest/least effective build to get the “”””full”””” experience even if that’s not really the case. I cant blame them tho, cuz challenge runs exist for a reason and they’re great. I think al soulsborne players should try an SL1 build at least once. But that doesn’t mean other ways to play the game aren’t viable.
Playing like this is fine. The thing that sucks is having to watch you play like that. I watch elden ring vids as im sure we all do, when i have to see it its really boring to watch youtubers cheese a boss and give a sigh of relief at the end like they actually did something. All the youtubers using katana builds for bleed not cause its their fav weapon, thats also boring to watch. Makes me think i should upload. I use what i like and i fight head on, nobody else making that content they all doing the same thing.
Players always optimize the fun out of anything, myself included. The point isn't that they should make things easier to optimize the fun out of the game but make everything viable so that we're not able to "optimize" the fun out of actually experiencing the game.
Imo cheesing would be something like throwing firebombs over capra demon’s wall or going around Mohg’s bossfog to prevent his ai from doing anything for a free kill, an oversight that clearly isn’t intended by the devs. Nuking a boss with a completely intentional strategy/weapon/spell sure is kinda lacklustre but in isolation isn’t cheese, just a product of questionable balance and design.
You wanna argue that some of it is overtuned snd should be toned down to something more reasonable? Sure, infact I agree in many cases (with the sole exceptions being bosses or encounters I hate fighting normally due to being unfun or outright bad or something) to make for more exciting and engaging gameplay, but i don’t really consider it cheese unless it takes advantage if some oversight or exploit in the design, which honestly I guess is kinda what’s already happening with how busted some stuff is currently so moot point
I agree completely I thought the exact same thing! Under Ratatoskr's definition for example it'd be called cheesing to use a Phoenix Down in FF to instakill an undead boss. If your definition of cheesing is to circumvent the boss fight that's fine, but I don't think I had ever heard people use the term for stuff like that. It can get a bit ridiculous too; is sniping Bowser from a safe distance with a fire flower in SMB1 cheesing since you didn't engage with any of his hammer or jumping mechanics?
what's the difference between fighting a boss that cant fight back and fighting a boss that cant fight back?
One of them includes Comet Azur.
; )
I agree.
Using intended game mechanics isn't cheesing anything.
It's more like people who refuse to summon or use spells etc are reverse cheesing lol
they are deliberately making the game harder
it boils down to a difference in definition, in my eyes cheese is circumventing the intended design or mechanics of a fight. which in the case of the souls series, i would argue is to learn an enemy's moveset, and beat it by blocking or rolling its attacks, and landing in hits when the timing is right
so to me, the things he listed in the video were all cheese, since in using them you don't really need to engage with the mechanics of fighting an enemy. but that's just the way i define it, yknow?
i consider comet azur flask combo, completely cheesing. the mohg bossfog skip, and throwing firebombs over capra's wall, aren't cheesing, they are glitching/cheating. it's the same thing with speedrunners abusing the framskipping, and wrong teleports. thats not cheesing, it's glitching. it's you using errors, or oversights, in the creation of the game, to break the rules the game establishes. i consider cheesing, to essentially be, glitching, without the glitch. comet azur, mimic blood builds, pre-nerf sonaf, i consider those cheesing. i don't care whether other people use them or not, that's up to them, if they enjoy it, good for them. using glitches/exploits, i consider bad faith, as it is, by any metric, literally cheating. those, i consider illegitimate, because they are. comet azur, while cheesing, is a completely legitimate way to kill a boss. which to make clear, that is my defining factor, for cheese, versus cheat. cheesing is using the rules to your advantage, to trivialise, and in some cases, completely avoid, the difficulty/trial, you wish to avoid/trivialise. and i see no issue with it. i personally find it less enjoyable, but like ratatoskr, that's my opinion. cheating/glitching/exploiting, is breaking the rules, or using flaws in the system, to go against the rules, to win. people who use them, and claim to have "accomplished" something, i consider idiots, and liars. speedrunners, within said category, obviously exempted, as the whole purpose of a speedrun, is speed. essentially, if you use the rules of the game to your advantage, you may be cheesing, but some people like to have cheese. but if you break the rules, and go against them to win, well, no one likes a cheater.
When did cheesing turn from exploiting bugs or design oversights to using the games systems as intended and learning strategies? I've seen videos saying "THIS IS HOW YOU CHEESE MELANIA" after I beat her and its literally just "run away when she starts waterfowl, and dodge towards her on her third attack in the string and you *might* survive." Like what? How is that cheesing?
As for people having conniptions about the infinite fp flask and comet azure, most late game bosses move around a lot and are typically programmed to dodge or go on the offensive after taking a bit of damage, locking back onto a boss, charging comet azure, and hitting them during the very limited ten second window you've got and doing it *multiple times* during an encounter isn't as busted as it looks. Even if you break their posture most end game bosses have enough health where they'll still be up and kicking the shit out of you during the cast animation while you're rooted to the ground and unable to lock onto them again. Is it strong? Very. Will it win you every fight? Definitely not.
Comet Azur isn’t quite as bad as the Meteorite spell you get from Astel imo.
I had to desperately beg my friend to stop casting and then let him die to the final boss without assistance, because in one continuous cast on his first attempt he managed to take out 90% of it’s *boosted* health bar.
He thanked me more than once afterwards and it turned out to be his favourite boss fight in the game, but he almost missed it because that one spell was too powerful.
I think a particular strategy being able to take out even *one* boss without them getting a chance to fight back is a problem, one way or another. If it's not the tutorial boss, it should at least have the ability to *function* no matter what you throw at it, barring something utterly ridiculous like a maxed out character going back to stomp an early game boss you missed (and even that shouldn't be *that* bad).
Like, I think we can agree that a particular boss just flat out breaking if approached a certain way-just standing there, unresponsive while you whittle away its HP-would be a problem, right? Or if you find a particular spot where you can hit and kill a boss, but it's just incapable of hurting you in return, etc. Or heck, how about a full on bug or design oversight that allows you to skip a boss entirely, like going out of bounds? We all agree that's not how bosses are supposed to work, right?
So what difference does it really make if a particular spell, with the right setup, produces basically the same experience? If I can enter a boss arena, kill the boss, and then leave again without having seen a single attack, what does it really matter how I got there? How is that *not* an oversight on the developer's part? Do you really think From *intended* for any number of the bosses to be reduced to punching bags, unable to threaten the player *at all,* with a single spell?
And, of course: I'm not saying you can't, or shouldn't, play a particular way. It doesn't affect my experience at all, unless I happen to summon you online or something. But don't get mad at somebody just because they define cheesing as 'stuff which outright breaks the game,' alright? Because that's what he's saying: a boss being unable to respond to the player is broken, which we all seem to agree with, up until our favorite method of bypassing a boss fight gets called into question.
Ratatoskr defines what he considers cheesing pretty clearly: Circumventing the encounter's mechanics by not engaging with them. I consider this a pretty good definition.
@@Dragonswiftx if I die 20 times to the encounter’s mechanics, I’ve engaged.
Took me a full day to beat melenia. I upgraded probably at least 5 different things and still just had to in a way git good. I ended up finding a weapon that I was most comfortable with for the situation and learned the dance.
There's many ways to play, you can play under leveled with spirit summons and it can become as hard if not harder than playing leveled up with no summons. You can make the game what you want it, the difficulty is up to you and your play style. That's what's so good about this game. Not only is it a large game you can go through a play through completely different each time.
I get your point, but this really isn't true. To make a boss easier, if my options were to double my current levels or use a strong spirit, the spirit would be the clear choice basically every time. The reason is because, against most bosses, the simple act of taking aggro from the boss from time to time eliminates the lion's share the difficulty. What makes bosses in Souls games so challenging is they have this constant pressure (in some form or another) and part of the fight is learning when you can perform certain actions and when you can't. When another body take the distraction, the part that's hard is gone; all, or most, of the challenge on identifying those openings is gone.
@@hexthehardcorecasual who says the summons have to be strong. The choice is yours to choose your difficulty. That's the point I'm trying to make. I'm on neither side of the argument. I am on the side of the fighting amongst people as I personally find people go at each other over meaningless nonsense quite entertaining.
Ahh love the Majula music
@@Veritech617 The summons have to be strong to lower the difficulty of the game significantly. The spirits are a difficulty slider. The stronger the spirit used, the easier the game. They are the game's difficulty slider in all but name.
@@hexthehardcorecasual Some who play no summon, no ash of war, no buffs other than emblems don't think that's the case, some might say emblems are OP. It's a dance and everything involved really adds up to how difficult the game is. The best thing is, is that you can play at your own pace, or set restrictions for yourself on a playthrough. Somewhere there is a purist who won't ride places or use fast travel. The game is what you make it, but obviously the harder you make it the bigger the accomplishments you make. The choice is yours.
I would say cheesing is something like standing behind a doorway so an enemy cannot hurt or get to you but you can still attack. Using the stats and armaments and items the devs put in the game to take a boss out stupidly quick is not cheesing. It’s just how the player chose to play a game. This is an rpg. If you want to play as a ridiculously strong spellcaster, you can do that.
@@WhiteBoyGamer Weapons and spells get nerfed exclusively because the PvP crowd bitches and moans about them, absolutely nothing to do with the PvE. It's always been like this.
Another thing needs to be mentioned,
If u go out of ur way and look up specific cheese/dead angle of bosses then that immediately devalues ur playthrough experience. I dunno how ppl can have fun cheesing if they didnt figure out the exploits or items organically. Maybe they just like the power fantasy and dont appreciate being the underdog overcoming the goliath i guess
@@btchiaintkidding7837 for me, i really don’t like cheesing because it takes away the thrill and the diffuclty that bosses offers. but i am forced to cheese due to lack of time on understanding every move set of every boss. i just pick the boss that i like and fight it square or when i knew that i can’t do it on few hours, i cheese it or use co-op to help me
i think if u play as a spellcaster thats not cheesing, but that specific infinite azur comet strat 100% is.
Completely agree. Cheesing, to me, implies that the game is being played in a way that was not intended by the devs. Using mechanics in the game as they were intended to be used should not be called cheesing imo. The “cheesing is when you avoid engaging with the game’s mechanics” seems necessary but not sufficient for a complete definition of cheesing.
Alot if people dont know what the term "cheese" actually means in the first place, the term is supposed to imply that you took advantage of an unintended exploit in the game. Not just using something that is Meta or OP.
Would you say then that using Hoarfrost Stomp or the Sword of Night and Flame or the Mimic was cheesing? We know them being so good was unintended as FR nerfed it
@@Alquasar Them being nerfed due to being too strong is not cheesing. How is this any different than DS3 weapon adjustments or balance adjustments from other games? Just because you used Aatrox when he had a general WR of 58% with a 10% pickrate doesn't mean you're cheesing the game - you used something that is too strong at that specific time.
@@DarkKerialstraz of course but it's a bad example atrox was fairly strong now lets talk about kassadin on s3.... that was cheaseing league of legends
Just want to point out that "cheese" can mean many different things. A common meaning is using a brain-dead strategy or OP weapons. I think it came from spamming moves in fighting games.
Yeah I thought the definition he gave was weird. The whole not engaging with the mechanics thing. If I bum rush a hollow and spam him into the ground before he can swing, did I cheese him? I didn’t “engage with his mechanics” but I also “engaged with the mechanic” of stagger so…
There’s been bosses that I’ve beaten by putting them down before a certain move or phase change. That was my strat. It was a DPS race. I found a way to burst them down or prayed to RNGesus in order to avoid a move I found to be too difficult to avoid. Is that a legitimate strat? Or did I cheese because I didn’t engage with that particular move when I fought him? I get that the point was mostly referring to beaming the boss with sorcery and not seeing a single thing they did, but it’s still weird
This is a very interesting take. My personal advice would be to not immediately try to rush through every boss fight with cheese, but to also not beat your head against the wall far past the point where you stopped having fun.
Engage with the game. And if you get to a point where thay engagement is no longer fun then smash past it however is most convenient.
"It's okay if different people value experiences differently." - Yes, exactly. The only way to "play a Souls game wrong" is if you listen to the kind of people FightingCowboy is mad at, and deny yourself what would be most fun for you in the name of peer pressure. All victories are legitimate, all ways to play are legitimate.
Nods in agreement.
The only caveat I'd give here is that sometimes people don't know what they want. They can optimize the fun out of the game due to compulsively seeking short-term gains.
Sometimes it's best that a game forces you into a playstyle that you wouldn't otherwise do or immediately enjoy, because the devs think said playstyle will create the best experience. Sekiro is the best example of this.
Since ER doesn't do this, it can be easy to think all styles will be equally rewarding. But I'd argue that cheesing loses a lot of its satisfaction after the novelty wears off.
Nah there’s a bunch of stupid weapons that are not legitimate
While I agree with your sentiment I believe you may have missed the point.
@@batrachian149 @Batra Chian I can both agree and disagree with you on this. In ER, you're meant to play your way, and that's the intended experience.
It's true that maybe overleveling your character, or doing a busted arcane build with Swarm of Flies spam and a Mimic Tear may not end up being equally rewarding as a "standard" experience. You won't get to interact with the game in the same way, because you won't be forced to. You won't have to learn all the mechanics, if you can overpower everything with minimal effort.
However, for some people, the OP experience may be more valuable, than the "god gamer perserverence" souls community preaches. In the end its just a video game, a role playing game. Some people want to feel like a god or a force of nature to roleplay something that befits the title of Elden Lord, and that fantasy is more valuable than wrangling with the game "the right way".
I'd argue that there's value in finding OP or cheese startegies on your own. My first run was with a mage and I found Comet Azur on my own. I dedicated all my level ups to being able to cast it and felt such a joy to finally use it and see my character become more powerful destroying bosses.
I agree that looking up builds on YT for your first run is just ruining the experience.
This! In single player, many gamers enjoy finding min-max strategies on their own and seeing it play out as planned. And the replay value comes out of finding new overpowered mechanics. I believe FS really understands this. "Cheating" or "cheesing" for me personally is, if I just look these overpowered things up, and don't find them myself. I do however like to check within the community afterwards!, if the thing I found is rather unique or very obvious. And if it's too easy or obvious to find i tend to drop it after two bosses and look for something new.
This is my biggest point and only thing I really disagree with Ratatoskr on. I don't think making a powerful mage build, and using the best spells is cheesing it. Sure some bosses might be easier to deal with, but others won't be. Just like if someone runs a pure bleed build and has an easy time with Malenia since she's really weak to it, I wouldn't say they cheesed it either. I can absolutely see the argument because some bosses get stunlocked thru the infinite FP flask+comet azure, but those are just widely available for anyone to use and if certain bosses are easy because you are a mage build, that's fine. Some bosses are undoubtedly harder and in general exploring the world is harder when you are resource bound, vs just Greatsword poking everything to death with 15 healing flasks at your disposal.
Other than that, I agree with mostly everything else he said, although I personally don't have anything against looking up ways to beat bosses. Cheesing in my definition is going out of your way to break AI or abuse unintended mechanics to kill something. Making a boss fall to their death, or get stuck indefinitely is cheesing it. Using spirit summons or even summoning a friend and having them tank it with a great shield or something, is not cheesing it in the least. If you look up a way to dodge a certain attack by a boss or something like that, I don't think you are cheesing it. I do think the Carian Retaliation bug is cheesing it because, using common sense, there is no way FROMSOFT intended the spell parry to do like 3K damage off your own spells. On a +0 shield it does 500 damage, and I'm pretty sure they intended it to not scale with weapon upgrades at all since literally no ash of war does 500 damage at +0. At best I can imagine it doing damage based on the damage you would've received, but that's not how it works even now.
Same here but different, as soon as I found the fingerprint greatsheild I knew I got something good, i fully upgraded it, paired it with the greatsheild talisman and a good spear and found it quite efficient, yet most people consider it a cheese because the free blocking is so good against most bosses and hard to counter in pvp.
@@GriFFonRec4 i mean tbh if you can't figure out a boss on your own, maybe come back later with more levels. but i find it absurd that you'd look it up online
Even telling people how to play by only going in blind is a bit of gatekeeping. People enjoy games in different ways. If they see some weird, off-beat build that makes them want to play the game that way more power to them.
"cheese" is an impossible thing to define. on my first playthrough i used the bleeding flail, didn't look anything up, and just played the game through. a lot of enemies and bosses are so weak to blood loss that i killed bosses in 15-20 seconds without seeing most of the bosses attacks. i went to all of the weapon upgrade caves so my weapon was always at a good level and just spammed light attacks. about 20-ish hours into the game i found the magic whetstone that allows you to put frost on your weapon.
i went from having an easy time with bosses to completely demolishing all endgame bosses without dying.
would some people call that cheese and that's not the intended way of beating the boss? yeah sure, but that's just the weapon i picked up and beat the game with.
personally, i think cheesing is doing something so unintended like clipping through walls, glitching past boss arenas, and bugging out bosses so they never aggro or move. no normal player is ever going to find these kinds of cheese without looking it up or one in a million occurances.
I don't see why awareness is necessary for it to be cheesing.
Okay, so you didn't know bleed was so strong when you decided you liked the flail.
So? It is what it is whether you knew it or not. Cheese doesn't turn to milk or yogurt when you can't see it. It's still cheese
@@MrFluffyWolf because by saying that your saying his play through wasn’t legitimate even though it was blind which is bs
@@MrFluffyWolf we get it ur good and you like big sword with no status effects but your opinion quite literally doesn’t matter
@@castanzofranzman2013 but here's the question. Does cheese equate to illegitimacy? No. It just equates to a different game experience? Which was you know, the entire point of this video. It's up to the player as to what types of experience they prefer really. Idk why we're re arguing the points already made in the video lol. Mr fluffy wolf isn't wrong to say the flail is cheese, but they didn't state that said cheese rendered voledae's game experience invalid or illegitimate. It just garners each of them a different experience of the game. Fluffy probably spent more time understanding boss mechanics and telegraphs for punishes while voledae used the bleed flail (eventually implementing frost) to out damage most bosses before their mechanics became a problem for them. Does this mean either experience is more valuable? Well that depends on your perspective really, but all he's saying is that Voledae unintentionally discovered and used a cheesy mechanic in the game. Which is true. But it doesn't mean that voledae's experience is rendered illegitimate in any way it just gave him a different experience in completing the game that Fluffy *perhaps* values less so on a personal level.
Pretty much this, if someone's natural playthrough leads them to what could be considered 'cheese' i dont think that devalues the experience or their enjoyment. If anything discovering something that may be cheese on your own can be quite enjoyable in itself. I agree that the best experience playing through for the first time is blind, but if that blind playthrough leads you to strategies that others call 'illegitimate' i dont think that's a fair call. Also - If i see a tough enemy near an elevator, the first thing im doing is trying to get him to fall in - thats why the elevators are there after all.
I have had 4 friends played elden ring, 2 of them cheesed every encounter they could and looked up all the guides possible before hand, 1 of them looked up minor stuff such as upgrade materials and 1 went in completely blind. The 2 that cheesed everything have not finished the game, both quit after Radahn, they said that they knew all the stuff that was coming from video's (one even watched all endings) and have had 0 motivation to play whatsoever. The one who looked up minor things has fallen in love with the game completely, but has regretted looking up things since he felt like the surprise of his playthrough was ruined and he killed the bosses too easily. The last one is on his third playthrough, still finding new things, still enjoying himself. I did the same as well, going in blind, and have never had a more satisfying gaming experience. Of course this is just personal bias, but I think that if all my friends played the game blind from the start they would have all fallen in love with the game completely.
I looked up s couple things, but legit found 99% of it on my own. Still love it.
I would love to be that blind player, but I can't do that when I take my time and EVERY FRICKING THING ON THE INTERNET IS A SPOILER.
TRUTH. The only time I look things up is when I feel I’ve forgotten something, or to help keep track of an npc questline. Sort of like “keeping the ball rolling”
@@captncuddlybear9404 yeah, it sucks that I already knew what the 2nd phase of the god eating serpent was. Still an epic fight, but I’d have definitely enjoyed the surprise
This is a weird anecdote. Your friends lost interest in the game because they looked stuff up, not because they cheesed. It’s weird and hardly relevant to mention. Plus it feels like you’re implying you can’t find cheese entirely on accident.
As far as the “intended experience” goes in this game… i actually feel that those of you who ignored the spirit ashes entirely have kinda missed out. I mean, if you don’t use them your first time through, when will you use them, AFTER you’ve figured out how to level 1 the game? Not likely, and unless you engage with that system you might miss the sweet father/daughter relationship that blooms with Hewg and Roderika. I mean, if they tied an npc storyline to using the things, clearly they want everyone to use them, not just new players.
edit: well jeez... this kinda blew up. i think some people misunderstood me. you don’t have to use these to see the story between these two, but you are just unlikely to see it if you never interact with roderika after getting her setup (it’s kinda hard to miss doing that). my point was to at least TRY the new mechanic, if you don’t like it, fine. but to just ignore it outright seems like a bit of a loss for me. (also, there are a few small quests in the game that require your spirits...)
I agree. I think people are just struggling with the idea that this game might be easier than previous games. They didn't simply fail to notice that every build is OP except the ones where you intentionally avoid using tools you could easily use. If using the stuff the game throws at you and exploring the areas visible on your map makes you overpowered then basically the game is just easier.
The thing is there's a big difference between not using them for bosses and not using them at all. You can use summons to deal with large groups of enemies and stuff like that while still solo-ing bosses. And to me that makes sense. Summons make dealing with ganks more manageable. But in a 1 on 1 boss fight, summons just break the boss AI. That's the thing. Bosses are mostly not equipped to deal with multiple targets (unless it's a gank boss).
@@MarkHogan994 The fact that spirit summoning enabled areas are hand placed means they had to know you'd use them there...because they put one there for you.
I did the quest line, didn’t use summons until ng+ (and melania because I didn’t enjoy her, but I at least tried without first until I found out she had a full health bar second phase). No regrets.
Already did spirit summons felt way more crappy then my current no summons and every enemy fell was my own work not some ai with the ability to carry me if you want to use ai more power to you but could most of the people stop having bosses nerfed radahn feels like a cake walk now the falling star beast used to be a tank now i just breeze through him game just feels like its losing the challenge it should hold
4:40 So, the question is then, does the Hidden Cerulean Tear exist within that narrow band? I suspect there are things that they haven't patched yet, that they intend to patch, but I think it's worth noting that they _buffed_ sorcery in the balance patch, specifically by reducing the FP cost of many spells, and even raising the damage on some spells. If they were looking at sorcery, why didn't they do something about this combination, unless they thought it was a problem in some way? It seems too obvious not to reach the conclusion that that is how it would be used. In fact, the Hidden Cerulean Tear's overall design _suggests_ that exact usage, a short-burst channel of high-damage spells. Otherwise, what other function could it possibly have that isn't outshined by literally any other option you could have in your flask?
I actually think that certain things like that combination are at the core of their design philosophy. In the original Dark Souls, a fully upgraded pyro flame, bellowing dragoncrest ring, crown of dusk, and power within, would mean you could two-shot Gwyn with great chaos fireball, because he's already very weak to GCFB, really, fire damage in general. If I exploit that particular weakness of the boss in that way, am I not making use of the game's mechanics, and one of _his_ mechanics specifically, tuning my build to exploit one of his vulnerabilities? If that is cheese, or, if that is cheese and cheese is not part of From Software's intended design, then I also have to ask about _parrying_ Gwyn, because most seem to view parrying Gwyn as the 'cheese strat' for beating him, yet even now, I suspect few would call it cheese, or call it cheese in comparison to CA and infinite FP.
A large part of the fun of these games, a large part of playing these games, seems to be figuring out how the mechanics, broadly, actually function, and finding ways to make those mechanics work for you to solve the problems you come across, and those solutions aren't always obvious. . . even in the case of CA and infinite FP, that is a poor option for quite a few bosses. It's great against medium/largish bosses that are vulnerable to hit-stun, like Mohg, but don't even try it against humanoid bosses who jump around a lot, like Malenia. Is it still cheese if you found an optimal strategy _because_ you learned a boss's mechanics, including their strengths and weaknesses, as opposed to just their moveset and timings? One of my earliest kills on Godrick, was me doing a few 'dry runs' to test what elements he was most vulnerable too. As it turns out, it basically didn't matter because he didn't have any significant vulnerabilities, and had one big strong resistance, so I just went with the highest damage-per-second-per-cast-per-FP incantations, and sure enough, on my 'serious' run, I thrashed him. Did I cheese him because I stood back and blasted him? If that _is_ cheesing, then are we making any kind of meaningful distinction with how we're using that word, or is it just starting to turn into 'any time you stand some distance from the boss and blast them with high-damage ranged attacks?'
Bosses have weaknesses, and I'm disinclined to say that finding the strongest means of exploiting those weaknesses is necessarily circumventing or not engaging with the mechanics of the boss, at least, not in a way that isn't intended, or considered. It's not going to be often that sorcerer builds, for example, are going to stagger bosses. They're also not going to be making use of spacing or unlocking and attacking to target specific vital or weak areas, typically. On the other hand, some melee builds might have a very difficult time indeed targeting vulnerable spots that ranged characters can easily attack. A melee character might also not be as well-equipped to take advantages of other mechanics, like certain enemies' severe aversion to fire.
Interesting point and interesting video, so far.
I agree with this completely. At what point is ‘cheese’ a subjective term used by players to say ‘you didn’t do it my way and I’m going to act like I’m above for you for it.’ Something like 1/3 of the starting classes in the game are spells/incantation based. Look at the enormous variety of magic/weapon arts from soft had to personally design. To call those play styles less valuable is cringey and ego driven.
Spot on about the hidden cerulean tear. Soulsborne games have almost always included small “cheese potential” in their games which can be used to almost break enemy encounters, almost by design. There’s no other reason to use the tear unless you use a spell which takes up a lot of fp, and as such will deal huge amounts of damage (for an exceedingly large fp cost). Notable examples in DS1 are using plunge attack on taurus demon, the stairs in capra demon, or letting ceaseless discharge fall off the cliff. In DS2 you could change the arena itself for many bosses, there’s a lot of examples for further games too.
I think the reason why so many people get upset about this tho, or specifically intentional game design to make a boss easier (sometimes almost pitifully), is that they didn’t have either the resources or analytical skill to find out the easier way to beat them. Finding out that you can essentially one-shot ceaseless discharge would be very frustrating for someone who had to spend multiple tries on him. So to justify that, they probably think “well my way was legit, the other way was clearly not intentional”, even if it obviously was.
And yeah, that’s exactly right about the mastery of the games mechanics. I always thought of the soulsborne series as overcoming frustrating controls, confusing status screens and overwhelming item descriptions, and using the one or two occasional things to vastly help out your fight. If you take the time to read each item description, even if most of them seem useless to you, there will definitely be one which, using other knowledge of the games mechanics, can make fights much easier. That in itself is essentially you beating, or outsmarting, the boss. The feeling of discovering an intentional mechanic to make a boss easier is almost the same as solving a difficult puzzle. You take the time to analyze each section, and once you find a connection between 2 seemingly unrelated mechanics then you can start to solve the puzzle.
They "buffed" certain sorceries because it just made 0 sense to cast them when pebble exists. Fromsoftware making other sorceries viable doesn't mean they condone you blowing up a boss with infinite FP comet azur and claiming you beat it.
@@CTStyles31 That’s a ridiculous statement… we all know the reason why Fromsoft released that patch was because of the popular meta at the time, which is why things like SONAF, Moonveil, and hoarfrost stomp were nerfed. By that time the azur comet was really popular because it was relatively easy to perform. If they really thought it was broken they would’ve either nerfed the hidden tear or azur comet. Also how does that even make sense?? Why would fromsoft not “condone” you using the mechanics to the best of their ability? That’s like saying they wouldn’t condone you beating a boss on the first try, because of some bs reason like “oh you just got lucky” or “oh you just roll spammed”. It’s not good to project your opinions onto a corporation lol…
I was reading this then the video ended, looks like I got jebaited
Nice analysis here. I think what's going on in the "talking past each other" debates, is that people have a hard time identifying what *their own values* are, and seeing those as coexisting with other peoples' values, which may be different. Those that explicitly gatekeep via the "legitimate skill" angle, have a bias toward mastery and challenge. Those that are totally okay cheesing a boss may instead value the type of "fun" that resourcefulness, exploits, and Doing Big Numbers provides for them. Magic the Gathering's game designers know this (see: Timmy, Johnny, Spike player archetypes). You can't force a cheese-lover into a combat-master if their values aren't there.
Framing your encouragement of learning a boss first (no cheese) as advice to help someone enjoy the game even more is good - but that context of values is necessary. Some people just want the big numbers, and if that's the optimum experience for them, at least we're still all having fun.
And this is all the more true for an rpg, especially an action jrpg at that which boasted being "even more rpg than any other rpg we made before"
People like what they like, as long as they aren't playing in a way they don't like, then all's fair, even what isn't fair still is as that's a responsibility of the devs not of the players(if you think the game is unbalanced, complain to from/bandai, don't go around bashing people who use more efficient strats and cheeses)
Now if they are NOT enjoying the game though m that's a different story, and that's when one should come in say "but did you know you can do this? Or have you tried instead doing that?" As often people don't even know what they actually like, for example, how often i've seen dex people never even try using a big highly-staggering weapon because they THOUGHT they didn't like being slow, and then suddenly become tank mains the moment they give it a proper try...
I'm a total cheesemonger, and I like to put it this way: I'd rather feel clever than gud.
@@Braindouchedotnet sure sure. I see people fighting the Glintstone Dragon and I’m like “...why??” I just sneaked up behind him, grabbed the Glintstone Key then rode off 😂 don’t think he even woke up!!
It has so much replay value, even if you explored the whole map once. Everytime when i start a new character i am excited about where i go first, wich weapon i get first and what i end up with. I like this freedom! Can't wait for the first randomizer mods.
And sometimes one side is flatly wrong. I will bet my *house* that at some point in development FromSoftware had a meeting, probably with Bandai, and their marketing people asked essentially how they could "cater to the masses" to generate higher sales, and they discussed the idea of a mechanic you could only use during the most difficult content that would make it considerably easier to clear. Although we can never prove it without the devs admitting it down the road, it's still an objective fact that Elden Ring's difficulty was downplayed, or at least made more modular so the player could have an easy mode without calling it "easy mode". And it absolutely started in a board room discussion centered around how they could be "cater to the masses". Not even the most gullible can deny this, only the willfully ignorant can.
The problem is with the definitions of what “cheese” is. I see people saying that using easy tactics or high reward low risk tactics is also considered cheesing. But I don’t personally agree with that. And that’s the issue.
If we can’t agree on ALL parts of a definitions, the only way to have a common ground for discussion is setting a more objective definition. At least from what I’ve seen only, almost everyone considers using exploits or bugs or unintended interactions “cheesing”. Anything past this gets too subjective to have a proper debate over, since what you feel is “easy and low risk” might not be the same for someone else. Or it might not even work in some situations, eg bossfights with phase transitions, or bossfights with multiple opponents, or bossfights with very fast bosses that like to rush you. These are very difficult to pull off the azure combo in and require multiple attemps to get the timing and AI behaviour right.
Yeah I always viewed cheesing as using unintended ways to beat bosses that aren't necessarily cheating like glitches, exploits or aggro an enemy and retreating to a point they can't attack you type of thing. Not intended game mechanics being used to win a fight. Like being over-leveled and not allowing a boss to get a move in I personally wouldn't consider cheesing.
Good point.
Agreed - beating a boss with the tools provided is not cheesing.
Ds2 dragonrider fight is the perfect example for cheese, why would anyone not cheese him after they figure out you can bait him off the arena? He isnt even a unique boss.
Very good point. While watching this video I was at one point saying to the screen "But that's not what cheesing is." I am firmly in the camp of if it's not a bug/exploit its not cheesing. It feels weird to say we need to discuss semantics before discussing our video games but, sometimes we kinda do.
I would say your definition of cheesing is incorrect, cheesing is to go out your way to do things that the developers did not intend.
Examples for this would be jumping over the wall for the Mohg fight stopping his Ai from starting, Killing Capra in DS1 with firebombs over the boss wall, killing Big Ornstein by making him clip out of the arena and fall to his death, Poop walking to stop boss Ai activating etc. Another name for cheesing is exploiting, but it is only generally referred to this when it comes to using cheese in a PVP environment.
Using things the developer intended the players to use thus cannot be cheese, they are simply efficient tactics available to the player, whether you want to argue they trivialize the game is another matter.
Personally, I think FromSoft have done a fantastic job of tailoring the difficulty experience for this game, There are so many tools available to the player, they can choose to engage with many or as little aspects they want to have the difficulty experience they want from the game.
Exploits/glitches are not necesarily the same as cheesing in my book. Bringing a friend RL300 to give you a+10 sword of night and flame and 500k runes at level 1 would not be cheesy by your definition. Even worse, creating a twink (a twink is a low level char with end game gear a friend gave you) to abuse low level players in PVP would not be cheesing as well just an "efficient way to play" . Cheesers are making a huge deal about this topic because they are insecure about their playstyle.
Stray demon can get caught in a loop where he just smacks the ground with his staff over and over. With a bleed weapon you can easily beat him at 1st level. That's an example of Ratatoskr's definition of cheese
I think it’s great that Fromsoftware made this game more approachable. Did I melt commander Niall with comet azur? Hell yeah I did. Would I have been able to progress a story I’m obsessed with in a world I love if I hadn’t? Probably not. Im not a great player, but I love the world and the immersion - I need RUclips guides and cheese spells like comet to help me progress, and I don’t feel bad about it. Im still the Elden Lord.
…. I hope you misspelled Commander O’Neill , lol because I just spent my night beating him in the middle of a rot lake and the fact that there is another version of him terrifies me!
@@anthonyfluck620 uh… hate to break it to you
@@anthonyfluck620 There is another (yoda face)
@@anthonyfluck620 ill pray for you
@@anthonyfluck620 niall can be afflicted with scarlet rot, so if you keep aeonian butterflies you can make a couple pots and chuck them at him, then you just have to survive.
I beat Malenia using Azur and the infinite MP flask. It seemed like an obvious solution the moment I saw how immobile she was in her second phase. Only after I won did I find out that people online considered it cheesing, but in the moment, I had felt intelligent for figuring out a simple way to beat it. I had never looked up a strategy video outlining the strat prior to using it, and who is to say that figuring out an easy way to do something is not proper gameplay? So was I cheesing or just using the tools the game provided? It seems ridiculous to me to not use spirit ashes or certain moves when From programmed these things into the game. Finding the Ashes in the game and trying them out and seeing what they did was something that felt rewarding as I explored the world. If I had subscribed to the idea that using Ashes is cheating then all those dungeons where the reward was a cool Spirit Ash would basically be a dungeon with no reward. As someone who has played a lot of fighting games, the people complaining about people cheesing sound just like the fighting game scrubs who will try to downplay your win by saying you were using a top tier or spamming moves that they have a personal issue with. The only thing I consider cheese in this game right now is setting up Carian Retaliation in PvP as winning any PvP encounter without having to interact with your opponent does not seem like it is in the spirit of From's design. Otherwise, I don't really care how someone kills a computer, and I see most of the people that do are doing so because they want to feel like they are somehow special for placing self imposed restrictions on themselves. I don't often see the people who do No Hit runs telling other players that they aren't true gamers because they can't go through the game without getting hit, and I think that that's because the people who do No Hit runs understand that the reward they get from doing so is intrinsic to them and how they like to play, and also that they are probably secure enough in themselves that they don't need to do that to feel like they are better than others.
"Only after I won did I find out that people online considered it cheesing, but in the moment, I had felt intelligent for figuring out a simple way to beat it"
This is an important thing I think people often forget. Not everything is based around active skill. Knowledge and planning go into things as well. Now looking up strategies and stuff can devalue this, but your experience in the fight is just as valid as someone who, through pure skill, no hit her. You used your knowledge of the fight and the game to come up with a plan to beat the fight, even if your fight required less reflexive skill it is still just as valid.
If you felt totally happy with that then yeah don't let other people take it away from you, especially since you found out yourself. Personally she was one of the few late game fights that I felt was fun enough to bash my head against a wall for hours without a mimic. The others I just got frustrated and used a summon after a while trying which did make me feel a bit ehh tbh.
@@RikiazGaming That was half the bosses in Demon's Souls.
I remember that i struggled through her first phase using the blastphamous blade, but on her second phase i killed her after the second try due to how immobile she was, thr difference in difficulty between different builds is a lot more than other games and that leads salty retards who dont like switching weapons cry about how good they were for beating the boss with an equally strong weapon that wasn’t optimal lol
Good job!
Aside from specific gates in Sekiro, FromSoftware games have always given you two paths: play better or prepare more. You can chip away at the Taurus Demon or you can look for a ladder. You can wait for moonlight butterfly to land or you can come in with some firebombs. You can nail the Orphan of Kos perfectly one time, or you can dive into Fetid Rotten Cursed Chalices so that the gems there give you a little wiggle room so you don't have to be perfect.
The caveat I have is, in previous games this was a byproduct of effort; of grinding. In Elden Ring, the devs wanted to reward exploration. The only people I have a little sadness for are the ones b-lining to a collection of gamebreaking items using wikis and reddit guides, when they haven't done a normal playthrough and just found the items before by wandering around. I don't even mind folks looking up dungeon locations. I've definitely done it for completionist sake. But don't go looking outside the game for a way to break a game that you don't even know yet. Reward yourself with transcendence by being so familiar with this world that you figure it out for yourself.
"Engaging with mechanics" is a pretty weird place to draw the line on what is and isn't considered "cheesing".
There are plenty of mechanics that can be easily avoided or entirely nullified with certain builds and playstyles.
Elden Ring especially has about 12 ways to skin a cat. Bloodborne and DS3 only really has summoning. Sekiro is basically git gud. Demons Souls you could just simply use magic
@@Budd631 hell, yeah
yeah this definition is wack, cheesing = glitching, not just skipping phases with raw dps.
If he doesn't want people to label him as a loser and a gatekeeper then maybe he shouldn't label broad play-styles and strategies with a negative connotation such as "cheese" - what a hypocrite.
Should I have respec'd my build to katana and dex when I fought the Crystalian bosses? 'Coz I was playing great hammers for my playthrough and those bosses couldn't do jack shit against my build and according to this youtuber - that's cheesing.
Cheesing is engaging with mechanics that are low risk high reward. Cheesing wouldn't be a problem if there were no PVP and also if people didn't use this game as a "gotgut badge". There are serious flaws in this game people just claim to be features. Like the extended buffer for inputs, the dodge on release and delayed sprint cause they share the same key...
The mechanics are set in a way dodgespam cheese is basically easy mode while everything else is triple the effort for half the rewards.
I like the video, arguments well made! I think I totally agree. Generally I think you should avoid cheesing bosses, but I would say that if you discover an overpowered tactic yourself, there is a satisfaction towards using the thing you discovered, even if it is cheesy.
Do you think the inverse is true, that if "you only have underpowered tactics", that you should seek help?
I feel like I have a lot of patience for it, but I don't want to beat my face at a boss for many hours.
I was about the say the exact same thing.
I'm sure this isn't the right way to say it, but there's a difference between being inventive, and blindlessly following the creator.
One made the effort to discover, or was lucky enough. The other simply followed, without having the full grasp of things, and then proclaim this is the way to play.
I do commend thought the ones that takes the concept and bring it to a higher level, optimising it. THAT, is contributing
@@Venoseth If you can't beat a boss after many hours then it means you're mechanically unskilled. Or the boss is broken in which case pretty much no can beat it. If you're unskilled it'd be far more rewarding to improve instead of finding the most overpowered weapon
@@Artaxerxes. ya, but they can play more and get better and maybe attempt those bosses in a more challenging way on another playthrough. Souls games always had some way to cheese bosses. People choose not to do it that way because it's not as fun.
@@Artaxerxes. i’d counter that it’s less being unskilled as in time anyone can beat any boss. But of course, some people may not have the patience to learn if it may take them many hours to do so.
Using tactics to make the fight easier like summoning or bleed spam a la swarm of flies and rivers of blood is also legitimate in this sense. Sometimes, people just want to put a boss behind them to continue. And that’s okay. (Note: I personally never summon for the tough ones, but my best friend has little to no time nowadays with a busy work schedule and isn’t as “skilled” in souls games as me and this is their feedback.
I 100 agree with Fighting Cowboy. Sorry. I've never heard someone tell me when a I'm using a hammer to pound in a nail that I'm "cheesing" the experience. Imo, "cheesing" is doing something like getting an enemy stuck in terrain or otherwise exploiting the game in a way where there is literally zero risk. Even if you use a tool given to you by the devs that might make an encounter more trivial there is still some amount of risk.
No no no hammer is intended experience. Put down the nail gun and come use this hammer.
Oh it's a sledgehammer by the way. Git gud.
Using a hammer to pound in a nail is just using the right tool for the job though? cheesing can be making something ridiculously easy by using much stronger, much less skillful tactics etc. At the end of the day, you can play how you want, but I think it will be cheesing a boss if you do things like that - it's hard to make a better comparison with something as small as hammering a nail in tho imo
As a long time Destiny player, I am well acquainted with cheese. Cheesing is standing outside of a fog gate shooting a boss with arrows. Using gameplay mechanics isn’t cheese, it may be abusing an overtuned combo-Ie comet azure inf. Fp.
Most of this isn’t real cheese, souls games have always given us crap to blow up boss ho bars. Imo calling it cheese isn’t solving the problem, but adding to it.
Personally I'd say "cheesing" means doing something that you're not supposed to be able to do. Something unintended, like a glitch or purposefully making the boss get stuck in terrain so it won't move. I don't think using any of the game's intended mechanics should be considered "cheese".
yes, cheesing is like using dung pies from outside the door to kill capra demon in DS1. Using the game mechanics isn't cheesing its called playing the game, it is beating the game "organically".
Edit : The gentlemen below helped explain the meaning and understanding I am trying to explain as well.
End of Edit:
Ah. I understand you. I saw people defeating Radahn, using gravity... Making him fall. Same goes with the Fire Giant. Making it trip over itself and fall...
I do find that disgusting but it isn't their fault if the game is designed flawed in that way. If you do this on your first try, you lost value (experiences) as stated in this video.
You missed out on mechanics and gameplay and the spectacle of the boss.1
If you skip Radahn like that, you missed out on the Meteor Attack. If you skip the Fire Giant, you can't see the Volcano Eruption attack. So you'd lose value as well.
@@Asriel_Cypher You are equating "value" to "experience." You miss out on *experiences* when you cheese a boss. How much value comes from each experience is up to the individual to decide. You can't claim that people "lost value" because you don't know what they value.
*THAT* is the crux of the argument: an experience does not have intrinsic value. Each and every experience is subjective. There is no value to be lost or gained from an experience unless the individual views things that way. Any outsider perspective is pre-judging the situation based on their own biases.
Calling the "loss of an experience" as the "loss of value" is conflating two different ideas to cover for prejudice.
@@Ortorin
Precisely! Thank you for highlighting the Value part of it. I had trouble explaining that. I appreciate that.
agree, like the fire giant cheese where he falls and dies. which is my FAVORITE THING EVER! so funny!
people might call it cheesing, but the second I found the cook book that makes poison darts they became my go-to strategy for just about everything, and I love it. so many times I would be fighting a boss and about to get smushed, thinking "oh shit, oh shit, not again" when that last tick of poison just barely takes them out and that feeling of victory is just like "WOOOH!
Doesn't sound all that cheesey to me....sounds like you had to do a bunch of dodging of the boss so it was still a tough fight
Sounds like me and the ole’ rotten stray. I’ll engage the boss long enough to draw their agro, while rot doggie bites them and inflicts rot. Once that takes hold, it’s then a waiting / dodging game.
I was literally able to beat Godrick on my first try with scarlet rot lol. I remember some dude telling me "You just ruined your playthrough", and the utter confusion on my part getting a response like that. Like bruh, you're telling me the devs gave players a tool they can use which ruins their own game, that certain bosses are weak to lol. Also, here's I look at it. The world of these games are supposed to be shitty and unfair to someone in it. So with that in mind, it's inevitable that it's going to cause players to be shitty and unfair to the enemies back.
You know, I've been thinking about this subject for the last few weeks as well, cheesemongers versus gitgudgang, and I've come to very different perspective on the whole thing. To me, one of the biggest distinguishing features of a souls game is the lack of rules and limitations on player choice: all that isn't strictly forbidden is permitted, and very little is strictly forbidden. At the heart of these games are a lot of sandbox and immersive sim dynamics, and I think Elden Ring is the apotheosis of this tendency.
What I find really interesting is that when the gitgudgang gets wound up, what they're literally saying is that the game doesn't have enough rules and limitations on how you play and then proceeds to make some up and try to convince people around them that they should hop on board. (which, i hasten to add, is very different from Ratatoskr's suggesting "don't be too clever, just hit the monster with the axe and fun will happen". ) I think this is a *fascinating* dynamic at play, that there's a large cohort of people who not only embrace this game difficulty-first but also are craving a more curated experience so hard they will invent one out of whole cloth and insist it's been there the entire time.
It's more than just "git gud", it's an unexamined expression of our expectations of what games should be, what these games are, what the nature of gamer entitlement is, and what happens when those expectations are implicitly violated. (And I really really want to see a conversation started around this subject!)
I think the problem just comes up when people try to impose their personal value system or ideas about how to enjoy the game on other people. Like, I'm one of those people who prefers to "git gud" and challenge bosses without relying on any additional mechanics outside of the base ones, but I think it'd be silly and foolish for me to assume that that's right for everyone. It's how I enjoy playing these games, and the reason why Sekiro is by far my favorite Souls game, because it's the one with the most clearly curated challenge, there was only one way to play through that game, and that allowed them to really refine the challenge to a razor sharp point. But we're not all the same and it's perfectly fine for anyone to enjoy themselves any way they see fit without any need to justify it to others. The "gid gud" folks who try to push their mentality around playing the game on others as if it's the only "true" way to play the games is either working off the false assumption (if we are to assume their motivations are pure) that their way is the best way for everyone to get a good experience and want to make sure others get that optimal experience, or they feel insecure and feel the need to justify their own mentality around the game by putting down others who don't conform to it. That's my take anyway. Just have fun and play how you want at the end of the day. It is a game, after all. People just take it a bit too seriously sometimes.
Agreed 100%.
These games are RPGs and we shouldn't forget about the R in RPG. Some people wanna roleplay a Wretch, some a Samurai, some a Mage Knight, etc.
Some characters will be OP, some will struggle. Hell, the whole point of archetypes, even just the basic Warrior, Mage and Rogue is to experience the same world in different ways. And even though a Mage and a Rogue can both be glass cannons, the _flavor_ is completely different. That's why so many people are into Fashion Souls and why cosmetics sell _better_ than hot cakes in online games.
Flavor matters. Some of us want to be the sneaky, underhanded bandit, some want to be the valiant paladin and some want to bend reality and nature's laws to their will. All valid ways to play the game and experience its world.
Good thing you can play the game however you want, so you literally chose how hard it will be. You are a gitgudder? Just use a sword, upgrade a bit the strength and you are good to go, beat every boss with pure melee skill. You wanna be a cheeser? Invest in inteligence/faith or in bleed. You want cool powers but also want melee power? Make a hybrid build let's say strength/faith. This game is so cool because you chose what you want to be and how you want to play the game, and the game enourmously changes depending on your decisions. It is beautiful.
I think one aspect you are not considering is that this game is part of a Franchise built by all the previous souls like games that have come before. The Git Gudders built their culture based off of their shared experiences from the previous games. The Git Gudders are the core fanbase that have supported FromSoft for a very long time. Imagine if you will the anime Gintama. There is a popstar that is extremely popular, but the people that had a very large hand in making her famous were the core otaku fanbase who do things any "normal" person would be embarassed to do in real life at these concerts. The GitGudders are similar. In the grand scheme of things their monetary contributions are basically nothing now. But back then, they kept the community alive and sometimes growing. They gave money to Fromsoft in a time where every dollar mattered more. One could argue that the GitGudders are largely a western group. But even then their roots go back to the original japanese gitgid fanbase.
There is a sense of ownership of what the game is and the experience it should give the players. It is an aspect that Miyazaki himself recognized when he thanked the fans and defended the "shared suffering" aspect of the difficulty of the game.
This sort of thinking is the same reason why Fans of long running franchises get angry every single time a post modern corporation takes a franchise like Star Wars or Star Trek and "reimagines" it while sliding in ill fitting woke ideology to replace and colonize the portions they removed as an insult to injury of the poor writing and lack of respect to the franchise as a whole.
I really wonder how DS1 would have been perceived had the rerelease of the game not been called the, “Prepare to Die” edition. People really get an ego boost from beating a game that seems to doubt them from the very beginning, so I suppose if others can do it with little to no difficulty, it feels as if delegitimizes one’s own victories putting a scratch on that Soul’s veteran badge of honor.
That’s one theory. I can personally attest that beating bosses in certain ways makes them boring and forgettable. During my first playthrough, I unwittingly skipped the Weeping Peninsula and didn’t check it out until I was on the Atlus Plateau. Everything was a breeze and I’m certain I missed some important things.
If we want to have a conversation about "Does using these items cheapen your experience?" that seems like a better foundation for this conversation. It feels like most of the hardcore fans of the series, are really meaning to ask this question but get stuck on the word cheese instead.
Cheese is not using things in an intended way (imo I guess).
I thought "cheese" actually meant trying to break the bosses' AI in order to hit them and them not being able to hitback. Having overpowered gear isn't cheesing, but rather it is playing smartly.
@@OmegaF77 cheesing a boss in itself is smart. The two are not exclusive
I take the same approach I took in the Marines. Is the enemy defeated? Yes. Are you alive? Yes. Mission accomplished.
I have the argument in stealth games where if you accidentally screw up and have to kill everyone "If no one's left alive to tell what happened, it still counts as stealth"
you may think that, but your commander only asks the first question.
‘Rah.
Explore the grey, practice empathy, listen closely, respond with compassion, speak honestly without attacking others. Play the game the way you enjoy the most, once you understand all of the options.
Loved the closing comments and requests.
What if I don't want to do those things?
@@moderatingmoderation1699 Chad response
@@moderatingmoderation1699
Well you can be as heartless as you want. Nobody can stop you, unless they block you. Good luck with that.
@@moderatingmoderation1699 you can do that but practically every philosopher and great person in history would disagree with you
@@Asriel_Cypher I mean being full of heart never got me anywhere, so heartless sounds pretty good. Lol
Here's my argument.
If a boss is explicitly weak to a specific status (Radahn is weak to Scarlet Rot) and that is *by design.* Why would I not use it? It's no different than switching from a slashing weapon to a bludgeoning weapon on a boss that's strong against slashing. It is a tool FS specifically gave with the intention of the players adapting to it.
But SR on Radahn and using the summons which you are intended to use was considered "cheesing" him. Someone playing the boss AS INTENDED and AS EXPECTED, is "cheesing" and "the wrong way" to fight the boss.
Why should I not use summons? There are several gank bosses in the game that are insufferable without something to split aggro. (The Sol Castle boss, Gargoyles, double Crucible Knights, etc) Is it wrong to use the summons then? When it would make the most sense to call for help either using the ashes or online help?
Where does it end? Someones definition of cheese will likely be different depending on someone.
Some people legitimately think upgrading your flask is cheese. Some people think using a *shield* is cheese. Are those peoples opinions just as valid? Where does the line get drawn? If there is no consensus, if there is no definitive way to play the game, why should someone not use the powerful tools they have like bleed, scarlet rot, high damage weapons and spells, etc. *You* don't get to decide someones value. Cause if they don't care, why do you? Why do you get to decide what's right for them?
Finding interesting ways to make the challenges easier can be an enjoyable way to approach games. The victories can still feel satisfying as you may have had to work for them in other ways; exploring the world, building up your character, increasing your knowledge of the game... etc... An easier victory can be a reward for finding another solution and still feels better than difficulty options. Although I personally prefer to go in blind and like to see all of the mechanics for each boss at least once.
Meh.
I “cheesed” half the game my first playthrough because I chose to do a sorcery build. I didn’t look anything up about it, just wanted to try sorcery in Elden Ring because magic has always been underwhelming in prior games to me. The previews I saw made magic look pretty cool, so knowing I would play this game again with a melee build, I chose to go magic first playthrough.
I played the game. I didn’t cheat the mechanics of a boss. The game gave me comet azure and that FP potion. So using my head I melted the bosses I could because hey, I used the mechanics they gave me.
So I agree with FightinCowboy 100%. I look at cheesing as finding a glitch. Like the Sekiro glitch for the demon of hatred. You could argue looking up an easy kill of a boss is cheesing, but someone who figured it out themself by using the game mechanics is not cheesing at all.
I got the comet spell and fp tear right before the capital. I invested everything into INT and MiND. Basically I was getting one shotted everywhere. Give and take. The only boss I felt regret using that combo against was the Knight guarding the capital. I saw his dumbass sitting there so I just loaded up the spell and killed him before he moved. Other than dragons, I found myself using both melee and magic to take them down.
Honestly had a lot of fun using different summons and spells throughout the game. And now, playing the game again without either will be just as fun.
Souls try hards are hilarious.
If you discover the cheese yourself that doesn't make it not cheesing. Also you shouldn't feel bad about cheesing if that's how you wanted to do it and that's what you enjoy. There's creativity and enjoyment in coming up with cheese strategies that can be really satisfying, as you pointed out, but that doesn't make it not cheese.
My cheese has been scarlet rot rapiers and I’m having a blast
Enjoy your 2nd "real" play through this time :)
What a pathetic coward. To see these annoying coward mages spamming terra and the beam and calling bosses easy.
Yeah, dragons will just fly away before you can get them all the way down with comet azur, so I just use it once they've been poise broke.
Okay, so in general, I think you're both correct. Before I watched the rest of the video, I thought about fighting Cowboy's opinion before I heard yours. For the most part I completely agree with him. I don't believe that FromSoft wants to create a specific difficulty that all players will feel. They want everyone to be given the same challenge, but how they handle the challenge is the point of RPGs. I don't want a difficulty setting in these games, but I want variety of playstyles, which inevitably means there will always be an infinite amount of builds and personalities that have completely unique experiences. As far as nerfing and buffing goes, there's nothing wrong with tweaking the numbers to be a little more fair and balanced, especially with PvP but also, though lesser, PvE. His point that resonates with me, is that FromSoft wants the player to have options, and I doubt that they are losing sleep at night knowing that some players are having an easier time. I agree with you about going in blind and not researching all the exploits to death, especially on a first play through, but eventfully people are going to try something that's a little broken, and I don't see why that should be a problem. Also I think having ash summons is great. There's nothing wrong with help because in real life there are often people who are willing to help, though not always and most of the time you can't summon so it balances imo.
That spell cowboy is talking about is trash in pvp buddy you literally stand still and point it in one spot can't even move the beam of magic all the enemy has to do is move. Some spells and builds are cheap but everyone uses the most annoying stuff like bleed which is completely utterly broken damage wise. In pvp I could get hit a couple times with bleed build and die cause of the massive amount of damage it can put out. Same with strength it can put out a lot in a few swings too. Also buffs stacking is kinda broken too. So.... Plenty of broken melee builds to speak of.
@@L4Disillusion I know. I'm using it in my NG+ and its broken, but there's always a few spells that are like that.
Except that they did say before the game's release in a post that they declined adding an "easy mode" since challenge is a big part of the experience they intend. Why do you think none of their games has a difficulty setting for that matter? Now I don't know if these broken OP mechanics are by design, some of them definitely don't seem to be since they fixed part of them.
@@Leonhart_93 it depends on just jow broken they are, mimic tear was, but it wasn't so strong as to be made pointless for example(i guess it went from the equivalent of having a rando carrying you to a friend playing evenly with you, but without them answering any question you might have)
After all, the player IS reward for investing tome or being clever, that's at the base of roleplay videogames, especially jrpgs.
@@Leonhart_93 I mentioned that
I say this as a SoulsBorne veteran who beat Inner Ishinn taking no damage: Elden Ring is hard. I powered through most of the bosses without using cheese strats, but some like Malenia and the final boss really stumped me to the point I caved and used OP stuff like Mimic Tear. However, like the other games, going through more playthroughs makes you better and better until you don't need to rely on crutch strategies. So don't feel bad about using them as long as you make sure to learn and try to get better.
I would be down to get better if the bosses didn’t feel like they were difficult to the point of not being fun -_-
IMO there’s way too much “cheap” difficulty. Like bosses having AoEs that punish you for perfect rolls. Or I mean straight up just too much damage despite having max vigor and heavy armor.
If rolling through an AoE doesn't work, run out when you see the wind up, nothing new to the Souls series. If you're really brave, try jumping
Malenia gave me so much salt that i tried everything just to beat her (except for summoning other people), but now ironically, she became my most enjoyable boss fight in the game to solo, i even made a separate character just to fight her daily (resetting when she's 1-2 hits away from dying). I think i have close to 30 hours of ingame time just fighting her. And then there's the godskin duo, f those guys
using summons isn’t cheesing. it’s literally an intended mechanic in the game. cheesing would’ve been fighting a glitched boss who can’t attack
True. on my first playthrough i also caved on some bosses and used mimic tear. on my second character i didn't and i got to see alot of boss mechanics and design that was completely crushed under overpowered strats on my first character. I got to experience the game design, see the actual boss movesets up close and personal, have more fun and feel like i actually beaten the challenge of the boss. I think at some point you have to try it the standard way to get the most fun out of the game. i honestly think a player that used op strats all the way through and never replayed the game missed out on alot.
I'm not playing this game more than once so I'm definitely looking shit up because how the fuck else am I supposed to figure out that I have to talk to a doll 3 times at a specific bonfire
This game made me realize how awful part of the community is. There are some really helpful folks but I can’t help but think some people are compensating for something when they bully people, especially newcomers, into thinking that there’s something wrong with certain builds. Isn’t the point of an RPG to use the best items available in order to win?
According to his definition of cheesing; me just randomly coming in a Crystalian boss fight equipped with a great hammer and Ground Slam ash of war and just destroying those bosses with them barely even moving is cheesing. Maybe the joy I felt where my build just happened to be the perfect counter to the boss was illegitimate too; maybe I should've equipped some random katana and respec'd to Dex so I see them do some moves and get the "intended" experience for that fight. This youtuber can call it what he wants, but saying skipping mechanics is "cheesing" is also gatekeeping and he didn't have to make a 9 minute video just to say that he isn't a gatekeeper (coz' he fucking is). If he doesn't want people to label him as a loser and a gatekeeper then maybe he shouldn't label certain playstyles with a negative connotation such as "cheese" - what a hypocrite.
The point of an RPG is to roleplay a certain character. It could be an op tweaked mess or a complete wimp. Its not about maximising damage or finding the best stuff necessarily.
I feel you on this. RPGs deliberately push players to find better weapons, better armour, better abilities, to level up your stats and find better builds. Then after dozens of hours of improving your character you're supposed to "discipline yourself" and "show restraint" by stopping at an arbitrary point and refusing to use a specific weapon? If that's the case then it's a failure of game design, not the fault of the player.
@@CallMeBadong yea this is not cheesing. cheesing has always meant something like shooting arrows at dragon rider in ds2 while not being in his area so you can oneshot him later.
yes, they are overcompensating for something, Soulsborne bullying is the gaming equivalent of buying a ferrari, its called micro-penis syndrome. Anyone that chooses to bully, deride, rubbish or insult newcomers over how they choose to play A VIDEOGAME have serious personality issues they need to deal with.
Play it in whatever way makes you happy....YOU paid for it!
Fighting Cowboy is right, it really is that simple.
I totally agree with the going in blind philosophy, but my perspective on what makes something OP has changed a lot over the years of playing, and replaying souls games; and I've come to the conclusion that the player who plays a magic build and explores adequately to find the broken stuff on their own is no different than the strength build who uses a lightning zweihander, or an OP bleed weapon.
Plus i think it's unlikely that a first time player going in blind will find all the OP things they need to break these games anyway; even if they do they don't know enough about the layout of level or the enemies themselves to use it optimally
Yep, I think blind should legit be fine to cheese. I’ll call it cheese but it’s still legitimate on first play through.
Only thing though is that the things you mentioned are like pea-shooters in this game. They might have been significant in the other games that they made everything 25% easier (which was a lot), but they pale in comparison with stuff like pre patch Royal Knight Resolve + sword of night and flame that could do like 7k damage with a single cast, or hoarfrost stomp.
Exactly as he said in the video, some people actually make a point of always using the most OP stuff and when that gets nerfed it's like someone broke their legs all of a sudden, they have no idea how they are supposed to advance, which is really sad.
That blind shit should only be for bosses tho. After dying to the 50th ambush in ds2 I said fuck that and looked up a guide lmao
@@Leonhart_93 yeah I agree with you. My statement was assuming a blind playthrough, and it i is unfortunate that truly busted things don't get caught until most people are already playing.
Also, (maybe I should've said this first) my experience is almost entirely solo, offline with all these games, so I am speaking from a purely PVE perspective;
🤷♂️ blind spots
@@ameshizen381
Yeah, I kind of agree.
On two separate occasions in DS1, I tried to do a Paladin style character. One was completely blind without looking up anything. Because of it, I didn't know how to get into the SunBro covenant, and I couldn't get Lightning spear. I didn't know how to find Gwyndolin normally yet, and killing Gwynevere went against the ideals of a paladin. So the run ended up just being a warrior who occasionally heals or uses Homeward.
Next time, I looked up some things on the Wiki, and had a lot better time for it.
I agree and love that from has essentially answered the "should dark souls have an easy mode" question, but I think when commenting for strategies or discussing difficulties for boss, areas, etc.- people need to specify how they play.
Saying margit was push over when you used ashes, npc summon, and magic vs someone solo meleeing him- you are basically having entirely different conversations
Yes! thankyou.. its kinda pointless to argue about it.the general term cheesing is different for every player.
It's basically people who work smart vs people who work hard. "Cheesing" is finding a clever solution to solved the same problem someone else is doing through their hard work.
I don’t mind summons personally, when I could in previous souls games I’d always try to get a summon for some help, I find it joyful to have some friendly faces in those lonely worlds.
I don’t mind the mimic either but it gets waaay out of hand when you start spamming hoarfrost stomp together, only having 67 FP and killing the boss without swinging your weapon once and no FP flasks used.
I like your Balder helmet, bro
The only time I used a summon was for melania and that was because I fucking hated that boss (But she looks badass). I don’t go around using mimic tear to blast through everything, but if I come up against a boss I think is stupid or unfair, I don’t see a problem with cheesing it. I didn’t use summons for Radahn because while he did a lot of damage and was difficult I thought he was fun because I understood how and when I messed up. Melania on the other hand, when she pulls out a one thousand strike, barely and I mean BARELY avoidable attack at a range that makes it less so, I don’t see anything wrong with using a summon. Godskin duo is fun with the strategy that I’ve developed, but probably isn’t for others and wasn’t for me at first. Summoning a friend to explore side content can be fun too, but I think people usually are just upset when people cheese bosses that they know are fair and fun. My friend comet azured Godfrey, glitched Mohg, carian slice glitched Radagon, and ai broke elden beast, then proceeded to complain about how terribly made and unfun all the bosses were. He also never learns a boss because he fights 100% of his bosses with me to basically do it for him. He has 150+ hours in ds3 and the only boss he has killed alone is iudux gundyr.
A good thing it's nerfed
@@jasemayfield6853 U think Melania was stupid & unfair?
Then watch this & tell me how was this possible
ruclips.net/video/8NqX3Kj6qec/видео.html&ab_channel=Koudai.T
ruclips.net/video/r7dSrmbPqYU/видео.html&ab_channel=PaddyVu
@@jasemayfield6853 Malenia is such a strangely designed boss. I have no idea what the intent was behind her. She has this one attack that she can use without any sort of cooldown for up to three times in a row whith no windows for punish, while on the other hand she has this one extremly slow attack that even an infant could dodge and land at least 10 hits in the meantime. I really don't get it.
I love this! I will add that I attempted dark souls 3 times before the final time that I was able to get through it. But what pushed me to do it was seeing speedrunners cheese things and accomplish the whole feat so quickly. I ended up not doing it much, and doing no cheesing once I got through Ornstein and Smough. But knowing I had the option and using it sometimes was added value in that I got through the game at all.
I'll still agree that not cheesing and experiencing the whole intended thing in one blind go has the most value total, and advocating for that is great as long as you aren't devaluing someone else's experience, which you haven't been!
I think it turns out that some spoilers and difficulty modifiers don't actually spoil as much of someone's first playthrough as we tend to be afraid that it will. Even running through some things,cheesing others, and seeing most of the game played before I finished it - that first dark souls playthrough did it all for me, sucked me in and still made me learn everything. It changed my approach to gaming, allows me to approach all kinds of difficult gaming challenges, and has given me the power to approach all the other souls games blind as a bat.
Yesterday I discovered something incredible, I'd never bothered with ashes of summon and battle arts until yesterday, I decided to go through my inventory and try them all out, and the flame of redmane is Powerful!! It's is chargeable even without charging a single cast could break an enemy's stance banished knight take x2 to break and death rite only take 3 times to break it's stance. Simple and powerful ashes of war. And I thought to myself why did i never bother with ashes of war before, not because I feel ashame mainly becoz I just don't bother but they are all so good. Please try it out for yourself. Anyway, I don't feel shame using all the tools and ashes, they are there for a reason for efficiency's sake and better experience and practicality
yeah that ashes of war has basically turned me into a pyromancer with a big sword
Yeah im using it as an integrated version of combust in my Elden Ring Giant Dad build, it's pretty fun to use too, a bit slow sometimes though
Flame art +25 claymore with flame of redmanes, dragons are a joke to me, I fucking love that weapon art lmao, I'm sure it's getting nerfed in the future though.
@@doublet3n672 zweihander baby
Shhh. Don't tell them. Lol
Souls plebs will unironically say that the enemy nation/faction didn’t really beat them because said enemy used Artillery, air raids and tactics correlated to such equipment.
Sorry, had to get that joke off.
I feel like there is a small issue with your argument, despite how well put together it is, in that you aren't looking at cheese and overpower through the eyes of someone who plays open world games rather than soulslikes, and I've noticed this in a few of your videos. For many players there is appeal in seeing how far they can push themselves by going off of the beaten path, something that I would argue is probably intended by things like teleport traps and gateways that can send you into areas above your weight class. Dodging past high level enemies to get a very good item, or finding a strategy to kill them and nab a larger amount of runes than you should have, and then using such things to have an easier time in the main story, that feels like a reward for your own exploration in and of itself. Sure, it changes the intended difficulty of the fight, but I would argue that the open world creates many new avenues that previous soulslikes do not. While it does not always apply, using such methods can sometimes give a bigger feeling of overcoming the odds with the spirit of your own exploration.
Obviously there is nuance to this, and I think your advice with things like starting with the wretch on your first play through definitely has merit. But I do also think the sequence break-ish (ish because I mean only the stuff one can do without glitches) has a good degree of merit as well for certain players
Yes, absolutely this.
Personally I love going into these games and abusing the fuck out of the enemies no matter the way its done, pushing the game to the limit is great.
This.
Good point and that's something I personally enjoy in open world games.
I cannot say that I agree at all. I appreciate your intent of suggesting that no one look up anything on their first playthrough but that assumes a luxury of time to play not everyone shares. Some of us have lives. I can maybe put ten hours a week into Elden Ring. If I played your way I would still be on my first playthrough a year from now and I can guess that I would not be having a very good time anymore. Am I a casual now despite playing From Soft games for more than a decade? I am already familiar with the basic mechanics of their games and there is zero enjoyment in pretending that I am not.
Some things are simply too obscure (weapon upgrade materials, even post-patching) in a world that is too big. You say don't worry about game mechanics but do have to, at least a little. If I don't know where anything is then I have to pick a halfway decent weapon early on and upgrade it (say to +8). But then say I later find another weapon I want to use but now I cannot upgrade it past +6 because I used all my best smithing stones on the gear that got me to this point. So now I am forced to choose between proceeding through the game with my 'best/+8 weapon' that I have been using for weeks and weeks and am bored of or trying tougher areas with a new underpowered weapon that maybe I like more. And I honestly can't even tell if I like the new weapon more because it is so underpowered that I cannot fairly compare it to my old weapon. Does this sound like fun? Is this part of the intended mechanics of Elden Ring? Now rinse and repeat that experience over again as your best weapon gets to +12 and then +18 and then +24. Or I can look up where to find the smithing shard bell bearings and get on with things. Or maybe I have a different idea of what is fun in these games.
The inescapable truth is that cheese is in the eye of the beholder and there will never be a consensus on what is cheese and what is not. Gatekeeping a game/band/book/movie franchise/sports team is a prerogative of callow youth (or a matter of insecurity and immaturity for those of us who are not youthful anymore) and should be regarded as nothing more or less.
Whats wrong with a game lasting a long time? Not like there are that many good games waiting to be played
@@petercottantail7850 some people have other things to do besides gaming, try fighting the same battle over and over again for days or weeks because you can only play for one hour a day.
I don’t look things up, or build a cheese killer for my first playthrough, I approach all the bosses solo the first time, and make a decision after a few attempts as to whether ill call in ashes or use strategies to bait out certain moves. I don’t think I’m cheesing because I usually just do it the way the game intended… but I also let my jelly bro get the last hit on margit and godrick, which if anything made the fight harder cause I used it late in the fight lol. Oh also the page ash got the last hit on renala I saw her using Pokémon so I figured fair play
This is perhaps as close as to what i imagine the intended way to play to be: play the game solo, if you don't have time, turn the online and vheck the messages, if you find a boss hard, use ash summons or call up a friend, anything else is fair game unless the devs forgot about something (like hoarfrost stomp, comet azur being probably a bit stronger than intended, mimic tear being a bit excessive, etc)
After all, to get the the tools you used to beat the boss, you almost surely went somewhere and did something to obtain them, you earned them, and the game awards you with being able to use that item efficiently.
Now whether everything is fairly balanced or not... Well, i think we can say with ease that the answer is no, but it's not a responsibility of the player to not use those, i mean, i didn't know hoarfrost stomp was op, who was gonna tell me? Nobody, i thought it was just strong and that if i wanted to make proper use of it i had to invest in mind and making sure to have good timing.
@@iota-09 yep, I use summons when I run into a gank boss fight. Fromsoft put soo many double bosses in the various mini dungeons that I feel no remorse using an Ash summon if I’m outnumbered in the boss fight.
Hell I even doubt there was much thought into balancing for those double bosses either. So I’ll summon for that.
For main bosses, it depends on the boss, but Rhadan fight legit wants you to summon, so nuts to anyone who cares that I summoned for that fight.
First time around should be completely how *you* the player want to approach it the first time. Multiple playthroughs? New Game+? Time to learn better ways cause cheesing won’t always carry you.
@@iota-09 I did the crisol duo and the crisol/bastard duo with a friend, that bosses are much more fun played with a friend, and less enraging of course.
You cheese me, I cheese you. Fair is fair.
There's a boss on the mountaintops in a castle with two fairly challenging summons and all three of them fight you at once. I don't play like that, 1v1 me you fucking coward. So I bursted the summons down with magic cheese and fought the boss alone with a greatsword. He was still really tough. No regrets.
Lmao RUclips wanted me to edit this comment to make sure it's respectful. I'm cussing at a video game character, Susan. Chill.
@@Dekross not sure what "crisol duo" is, probably because i've yet to fully beat the game, but i don't find it hard to believe, bosses like radahn or the commanders(which btw reminded me a lot of a cerrain boss in the champion's ashes ds3 mod...) Definitely feel like they are improved by using ash, npc or even friend summons.
I like how you define cheesing as “not engaging with the boss” rather than “using OP tools”.
Using op tool is also cheesing
@@Sohelanthropus that’s wrong, be definition it’s using game mechanics/items in an unintended way.
Until we can prove developers intent, we can’t prove cheese
@@seanslaysean7097 cheese means you bypassed core mechanics
@@Sohelanthropus
So then using OP tools should not be considered cheesing then.
OP tools are part of the core mechanics.
@@davidnewhart2533 nope, ain't gonna have this discussion buddy
I disagree with the way you qualify cheesing, imo cheesing is simply beating a boss/a level using unintended mechanics or bugs, for a couple of examples:
- Beating a boss by manipulating its ai into falling off the arena and dying = cheesing
- Beating a boss by atacking him from a position where it can't attack you be it because of an AI or terrain quirk = cheesing
- Beating a boss with an overpowerd weapon = not cheesing
- Beating a boss by repeating a strategy that is 100% consistent and makes the fight effectivly easy (ie sticking to vicar emilia's back at all times in bloodborne) = not cheesing
- Using a weapon/item that is bugged and is much more effective than intended = cheesing
I think this is the fairest most generally consistent way of defining what cheesing is, otherwise defenitions like yours just leave to much up to interpretation and isn't objective enough to effectivly qualify any 1 op strategy as cheesing or not cheesing
This 100%
Walking in and blasting the boss with an OP spell so it instantly dies is not cheesing. You are using the spell they gave you. In the way it is supposed to be used. You can call it a balancing issue and they may patch a nerf in, but it is not cheesing because you aren't going outside the bounds of the intended experience. They intended you to have this spell, and they intended for you to be able to shoot it at the boss. If it kills the boss too quickly then boo hoo for the boss. when you walk into an end game boss arena at level 1 and get one shotted the boss didn't cheese you.
Cheesing is like when you can lob bombs through the fog door and kill the boss without going in the room. They didn't design it that way intentionally, you found an exploit.
All that being said, just play the game however you want and dont shame people for how they played it. Ratasokar is correct that looking up a legitimate cheese like if you walk in and immediately move all the way to the left the boss AI will always fall off a cliff and die will yield a less enjoyable playthrough, but if someone wants to do that that is their business.
Just have to say, on the last point how do we know what’s intended or not? Yeah Icerind was doing more damage than intended before 1.03 but none of us could have known that officially it too powerful, at least not till FS nerfed it.
i think you're missing the point of his definition; missing out on game mechanics, or bosses their movesets because of an overpowered weapon or a certain strategy.. and i do understand where you're coming from but i think his interpretation IS in fact very much objective, cause you're missing out on content, which isn't subjective. so yeah wether or not it's due to exploiting bugs or manipulating ai or cause of overpowered weapons, you're still missing out on most of what makes the game good. Cause you're absolutely right that using a good, consistent strategy isn't cheesing persay, but if it make you miss out on half of the boss their moveset for example then maybe it is.
like personally i get way more satisfaction from beating a boss by facing their entire moveset, actually making use of every combat mechanic that can help me win the fight.. which will be more of a struggle than beating a boss in a few seconds because of an overpowered weapon art, haha.
@@hashimrahman51 "Engaging with the boss mechanics" is the scale. It's straightforward. You can't just ignore a boss's attacks or patterns with a +0 moonveil. That doesn't change with a +1 moonveil, since even though you will kill the boss faster, you still have to think about and respond to the boss mechanics. But if you go out of your way to get a +10 moonveil to fight an early-game boss and kill it in one hit, you haven't engaged with the mechanics. If you spam hoarfrost stomp or azur comet, regardless of what the boss is doing because it doesn't matter what the boss is doing, then that's cheesing. I think his definition actually covers all the bases mentioned above without overcomplicating things.
If you find an exploit to cheese a boss on your own I think that’s fair game. If you look it up that’s a different story.
My monthly need of almost feeling alienated has not yet been filled. Great video Rata. See you next time.
Cowboy gets me all my items and secret locations in these games the guides are top notch
Another way of considering this aspect is that if FromSoftware didn't want you to access the abilities /weapons etc, then areas where these are would be gated more seriously than they are now.
In some cases I can see the op cheese method as losing an aspect of the game, but in others "one persons cheese, is another persons tactic "
I am tending towards archery, if I can find a sniper location so I don't get one shot, is that cheesing?
I actually love the vast array of difficulty options that Elden Ring has to work with. And I completely agree with your point that the main issue should be using wikis on your first playthrough. I would even argue that 99% of the time, if you don't look something up, you won't end up "accidentally" cheesing a boss or creating an overpowered build early game. Even as a souls veteran who started with the original Demon's Souls, I find myself using ashen summons CONSTANTLY. Not because I actually need them, but because I think it is an awesome new mechanic, and I love trying out each of the different spirits whenever I find them.
Exactly. I found the icerinde axe in liurnia that’s like 20 hours in into a fresh playthrough, I upgraded late game and used it, posted a comment about it and got shit. I’m sorry I didn’t watch all the op builds when I played so that I’d know I’d crush bosses with lol
If by "cheese" you mean "op builds that demolish bosses," I think it's acceptable if those builds aren't easy to discover as a new player by total accident. Most op stuff I'm aware of requires specific knowledge of item locations and a good bit of effort to get them, it balances out.
except 99% of Sword of night and flame users actually typed "how to be overpowered in elden ring" and went to kill the dragon in caelid and upgrade their weapon at RL1.
@@saucesriracha3763 No? It's pretty easy to stumble upon in game and is obviously really powerful (triple damage types, legendary aura, etc). Most people just found it and started using it after that
@@Asterius_101
ruclips.net/video/AtKzLhgaRn0/видео.html
@@Asterius_101 Yeah they probably got lost and instead of doing Margit they somehow got to Caria Manor and felt confident enough to explore the zone because this place is confy and easy not at all like Limgrave as we all know. Then they probably wandered around Caelid to get +8 weapon at RL1 because again, Margit is just so hard to find and Caelid actually means "heavens" in latin
I mean, comet azure and infinite mana are just... obvious.
I don't know why so many people are trying to accuse everyone who's done that of looking up a guide.
They're like two puzzle pieces that just fit together, you know?
The only problem with cheesing is pvp. It's too easy to re-spec your character into a pvp build to grief other people who are building characters for different purposes. Also, many people can't beat Malenia without a summon because she has cheesy regeneration.
Exactly, players are quick to forget that these bosses are quick to pour on the cheese too
@@universeobserver378 yep. I'll stop using summons when FromSoft stops piling on the gank bosses. If the boss gets to bring a plus one to this party, so do I.
ill stop cheesing bosses when they stop reading inputs
@@Naan_Cents Cheesing is still playing the game that's the point of all this ya dingus.
Malenia's healing isn't cheesy or unfair, but an attempt to design a new non-gimmick boss encounter in different way from the dodge-hit formula they've used. Because while she has combos that can randomly have upwards of 8 or 9 different attacks before it ends and she has her lifesteal, she also can be interrupted out of almost all of her attacks with only a few windows where she is impervious to it. They used her status as an optional hidden superboss to experiment with a new design and create an encounter where you are incentivized to create your own openings rather than wait for her to finish attacking you for them.
3:01 „using azure comet doesn’t mean that you didn’t beat it properly, but you didn’t beat it properly because you used azure comet“ is basically what he said lmao
I'm afraid I disagree, I think cheesing is actually trying to do something unintended, like quite outs or firing arrows through a fog door. Using the tools they have provided is not cheese simply because you don't have to learn attack patterns.
I think if they didn't want the flask that negates fp usage and all that entails to be in the game it wouldn't have been in the game from the start, it's power is obvious. They've nerfed other things but left it alone. IMO it's one of the in built difficulty sliders they have deliberately put in as is, with consideration.
Things like frost stomp being too spamable was likely just overlooked and subsequently tweaked. Obviously if they do nerf it, ignore this point.
At the moment I have two friends playing ER as their first fromsoft game, one loves magic, one loves melee and to learn the dance. Calling one cheese, because it involves less acumen, wether intended or not, comes across as insulting.
Before people just say I'm a cheesy scrub, I have completed all the soulsborne games with summons and solo, melee builds and a magic builds.
looking up on youtube how to find late game items early is kind of cheesing though. Sure if you just happen to discover them yourself but cheesing the tree spirit for infinite fp tear and picking up the spell before killing a single boss is cheesy as hell.
If everything is intended in the game, would they nerf anything at all?
You’re right that looking up how to do some cheap tactic and sequence breaking to get it right away can seem hinky. The flipside of that is, people can’t blather about it being an open world game, and place that value as high as they do, then complain when people open world. If you all want people to earn their way up from Limsa to Anor Londo along a straight path, then shut up about open world crap so maybe every video game doesn’t have to fit that stupid mold.
The fact that you have to mention that you completed all fromstoftware games the "right" way underpins how toxic part of the soulsborne community is. As if your argument is invalid if it were not for that disclaimer statement.
Might just be biased with Fighting Cowboy but I feel he's right when he says using op equipment or a build isn't cheesing. Some fights require some amount of learning, you're not always circumventing the entire fight with some builds. Something like finding a high vantage point and shooting the boss down where it can't reach you is cheesing I feel. You could be using a really strong melee weapon but if the boss hits equally as hard or harder you're out of luck if you don't learn it's fight. You have some interesting opinions I feel some people hate on you for but you've helped make my Elden Ring play through just that bit more engaging and fun so I thank you.
Except those OP weapons make the bosses so easy, you don't have to learn anything.
It goes for like 80%+ of the enemies and bosses in this game.
honestly, if it's a gank boss or one that summons minions of any kind, I cease to care what their mechanics or movesets are. I just cheese them in whatever way I can at that point, I don't have the patience for their bullshit lol
cowboy is just protecting his business of spamming noob build videos for every popular game that comes out.
My first playthrough of Elden Ring was blind, and it is how I still recommend playing it for other people. However, I think a thing not actively discussed among the community is the concept of investment in the game. With all of the Dark Souls games, when you are playing completely blind you have to kind of arbitrarily pick a playstyle and even a specific weapon to be what you use for a majority of your play time. While I like doing this, I also understand completely why people are uncomfortable with the decision. If I found out 40 hours in my build sucks and if I was using another weapon or set of spells I would be having a much easier time, I would be frustrated. I will add that Elden Ring has a pretty lenient respec mechanic, but I still believe that what makes people really hesitant to just jump into the game are things like upgrade materials. While easier in Elden Ring than Dark Souls, there is still a sizeable commitment to upgrading a weapon. I believe it is totally reasonable to want to look up something like "best straight sword" because if you found out after investing so much material into a weapon that another was a straight upgrade, you would be upset.
From a game design perspective, I think the best way to encourage people to play more blind is to be very forgiving with changing playstyles and weapons, like maybe even allowing full upgrade material refunds on weapons so that you can try out new ones without an overwhelming commitment. Ultimately, I think everyone can play the game however they want, and while my opinion is that guideless is best, I understand peoples hesitancy and do not think they are robbing themselves of enjoyment by looking things up.
One point you're missing, though, is that you can complete the game without an optimum build. You can complete the game without the best weapon. People do it all the time. Build is secondary to just getting good at the game. In From games, I never spend that much time thinking about my build. I spend more time learning the mechanics of the game. And I think that's the point Ratotaskr is making when he advises to play blind.
If FS didn't intend for what is considered cheese to be in the game, they should have listened to feedback and patched them out entirely. It's not the customers fault for what a company intentionally or unintentionally puts in their product. Whether it's a weapon that one shots everything or no clipping to the final boss, it's ultimately up to the devs, not the player, to decide what stays and goes.
This is my first FromSoftWare game and at 57 years old it's a huge learning experience. The only real Boss I've stomped so far is Margit. He stomped me 7 times first but I learned more of how he fights each time. For me this is more a strategy game. Fight, die, learn and repeat until it's fight and win.
So you played 2% of game lmao just wait till post Leyndell
Haven't watched the video yet but... People will play how they wanted to play. I've been playing Souls games since DS1 and I cheesed the hell out of that game. That's how people get into them. And in successive games I tended to lean further and further away from cheesy builds but that's what got me into the game that I would've probably bounced off of if I had tried a super try hard only-dodge no-block melee only build. Even with using summons, spellcasting, OP weapon arts, it's still a challenging game, especially if someone is new to the series. So let them have their fun and get through the game, and the game will inevitably demand more from them and since the game respects the player, probably on subsequent playthroughs or games that player will probably return that respect and try different strategies. Gonna watch the video now :).
PS. PvP is a different story altogether, the above relates to PvE.
PPS. In DS1 I played through most of that game not even knowing that dodging had i-frames... These games can be really overwhelming to new players.
For story bosses, I'll beat them on my own (not with friends) because that's my preference but I'll use summons and golden sigils because playing with the npcs is fun. I do think that the souls community has a certain degree of masochism, which is whatever, live your life but I'm not gonna feel bad because I didn't fight margit at level 10 with a club, half health, no flasks or whatever crazy challenge is latest. I choose less frustration. Respect to whatever playstyle you choose to use though. All that said, I could see fighting field bosses with a friend, that sounds fun
I personally find the greatest satisfaction from finding cheeses for bosses, but doing so myself, instead of looking methods up online
The logical flaw in all this discourse is the notion that everything From does which stacks against the player is fair because it's what they chose to do, but overpowered weapons and abilities needs to be changed. If you think they needed to patch Hoarfrost Stomp and the Sword of Night and Flame, then you shouldn't be so dismissive of the people criticizing the bosses for being cheap. Either their ability to tune the game is infallible or it isn't, and I do think the fixation on difficulty has often been detrimental to the overall experience of these games.
Except the only 'cheap' boss is malenia
Every other boss requires a similar skillset to beat
@@V2ULTRAKill I'm not saying I agree with every criticism, but compared to previous From games there are a lot of bosses that can kill you very quickly, have long combo strings, and can dodge across the arena. I haven't actually finished it yet so I'm not going to make a final judgment until then, but already I can see what people are talking about.
ehh.... You're right in principle but there's a pretty massive difference between boss attacks and individual player weapons and abilities you aren't acknowledging. Every boss' attack and movement is extremely carefully designed, as it is known that all players, or nearly all players, will interact with said boss. Great and specific care is taken with Godrick and Radahn and Malenia. The individual weapons and abilities though are FAR too numerous and no single one of them experienced by the whole player base that nowhere near the same attention is given. So its only to be expected that accidentally broken player attacks are more common than accidentally broken boss mechanics. You can reliably assume in most contexts that Rememberence bosses are working as intended. The same can not be said for the hundreds of possible player ability interactions.
@@JD-xz1mx It isn't like everyone is doing everything on the dev team, they have people with specific roles for all of this stuff. If the team members who were working on the weapons for the entire development process can decide after the fact a weapon art or weapon should be nerfed, then it's equally possible that the people developing the boss encounters didn't think about it enough either.
@@JD-xz1mx Boss attacks have been designed carefully previously. This isn't necessarily the case in elden ring, due to copies of bosses. That's why dragons have already been tweaked, and ulcerated tree spirits have an obnoxious amount of bugs. In theory though, you're correct for the correct reasons: these bosses are subject to the same problems as player weaponry and even basic NPC moves (like the bleed dog bite) because they are duplicates that have been mass produced rather than the handcrafted original.
They don't have handcrafted care as a result, and their flaws are more numerous. Just because fromsoft made this boss, doesn't mean it conforms to previous design standards.
If you dont play the game naked and kill the bosses with your bare fists... ya cheezin...
You're _playing_ the _game_
Cheesy. So cheesy.
"No one should make your win feel illegitimate. Here's an entire video about how its okay to gatekeep and be an elitist as long as you frame it as being more right and noble instead of direct insults."
Lol this, this video is just a soft way of saying "yeah, keep bitching at the people who can win in seconds cause their experience is lessened since they aren't being bitch slapped by the boss"
Cope moar.
If you don't like the temp of the water get the fuck out the pool. Christ why are people such pansies these days?
Hey, your PVE experience is still "legitimate" even if you downloaded cheats in my opinion. It's your game, your fun, you do you.
I'm not going to agree you've experienced the same game as me, though, nor the intended experience of feeling continually challenged by bosses you have to work to beat.
i wish this game was gatekept tbh less morons like you in the community
I disagree with Comet Azure/Infinite FP flask being a "Cheese" mainly because even if it were to be nerfed it will still function the same. What I believe the definition of "Cheesing" is borderline cheeting, but not actually using any kind software to do so, and is more of getting the boss stuck in a specific spot that which the boss can longer fight back. Using something the game gives you like a powerful Ash of War/Spell is not "Cheesing" even if it makes fighting bosses much easier.
I think what you are describing is called exploiting, not cheesing. When you use unintended mechanics to beat a boss, I have always called that exploiting the game. To me, cheesing has always meant to find a creative way to avoid engaging with bosses or content; for example if a sorcerer build was to stay far away from a meele boss and shoot it until it dies, this is completely intended, but it falls under the definition I have always used for cheesing, because such a sorcerer would've found a creative way to kill the boss without having to engage with it, in the sense that it wasn't as challenging as it could've been because of the smart/ creative way that was used to defeat it. This is completely fine and there is nothing wrong with cheesing, I've cheesed bosses, I've defeated them 'normally', I've had fun with both ways of playing. Personally, I find it very fun to find ways to cheese a boss myself (rather than looking it up) but that's just me. In the end, this discussion seems to be more of a disagreement on definitions.
I mean, not everyone is going to able to beat every boss in this game without "cheesing" (using your definition of avoiding mechanics). The OP stuff is the same as an easy mode. It's there for people that need/want it, and that's a good thing. Same with guides and tutorials.
I also don't understand the premium placed on first playthroughs. In every souls game my first playthrough where I stubbornly didn't look up anything, fought through areas underleveled, and missed a bunch of content that I later had to go back and stomp through at a higher sl, was my least favorite. I always have more fun once I understand how the mechanics are being applied, and especially in a game as big as ER, I think guides are genuine aid to progression.
The premium is placed on first playthroughs because you can't unlearn things. *If* you're someone who will enjoy the blind playthrough experience you *have* to do it on your first playthrough. Someone may be like you, where enjoyment is more readily found in having full or partial knowledge of the game before playing, but that's okay because you can always do that playthrough after you've attempted a blind one. You can't do it the other way around though.
@@NabsterHax I get that, but I still think it's not necessarily the best thing to recommend to first timers. The games give you lots of ways to help yourself, but especially in the early games, explain almost none of them. Telling people that they're devaluing their experience by seeking help doesn't make the games more fun. It just makes it more likely that they'll hit a wall and think maybe this isn't for them.
@@zedwords Personally, I don't recommend it to first-timers *to the series*, and I've often discouraged people from trying to force themselves to do it this way if they aren't having fun.
I didn't get into Dark Souls blind. It took me watching someone else's playthrough to begin appreciating the game. Seeing someone else's process, who was experienced but not totally spoiling every little game mechanic revealed a lot to me about what the game expected of the player and how to have fun playing.
But I also think first-timers should stay away from guides designed to make them OP, or give away all the game's secrets from the get-go. Following these guides doesn't teach you how these people gained the knowledge to create them, and just leaves you relying on outside help for your entire playthrough rather than learning how to become self-sufficient.
I'm obviously biased by my own experience, but I'd say watch someone who's kinda average at the game play it. It'll help you feel more comfortable getting stomped on yourself (because they doubtless will) and they'll stumble upon things you'll want to explore further yourself.
@@NabsterHax I think we mostly agree, but in defense of the op guides for newbies, I'd say that if someone wants to stomp through, more power to them. Feeling unstoppable can be the thin end of the wedge towards exploring more mechanics and engaging more deeply with the series.
This is why I don't mind ganks in pvp. Ganking is fun for a little while, but most people get bored with it as they become more skilled. That's why the ganker to blue to invader pipeline exists, and I could absolutely see an op gear to sl1 track operating similarly.
You talking about your advise for avoiding looking stuff up and to not cheese bosses is similar to the Defender gear argument in monster hunter funnily enough
Before I start, I want to say that I really enjoy your content and appreciate the thought and care you put into your videos. That being said, its honestly kind of baffling how you could so completely misinterpret FightinCowboy's (FC) tweets so thoroughly. At no point in his tweets did he claim that the entirely broken things in the game were working as intended but rather that those tools existed because the developers wanted them in the game for a reason; likely to help newer or struggling players get a leg up on the competition. You make a fair point about the Infinite FP/Comet Azure combo being a legit cheese strat for certain bosses, but its not clear to me, as somebody nearly done with the game, that this SINGULAR combo would be enough to get through a lot of endgame bosses. As such, people would be forced to adapt and find new ways to conquer those challenges (Godskin Duo comes to mind first as a boss this wouldn't work on, but idk as I went a different route).
Your entire response centers on the "cheesing" part of his statement, which is odd because that's not really what his tweets appear to be about. Instead they appear to about the gatekeeping that people, such as myself, endure when telling people about their accomplishments only to have then denigrated because we had a post-nerf mimic, or were using the NPC summon. Why is my victory any less legitimate? I didn't "cheese" the boss by not engaging with their mechanics; I simply used the tools provided to me to overcome the obstacle.
What I find most fascinating however why YOU would feel attacked by his statement and feel the need to essentially foist the "not all men" rebuttal, assuring us that YOU aren't one of those people. This is odd to me because none of your content, that I've seen, has ever portrayed you in that way. Your content is clear that you have a preference for how the game should be played, but I've never heard you attack anyone for playing the way THEY would like, so why recuse yourself from those allegations? FC's tweets speak to an experience that YOU don't participate in and IN NO WAY do they indict people who merely suggest/advise/recommend that people play a certain way. They speak to the troglodytes who refuse to allow people to enjoy an experience in whichever way they see fit, who would tell me that beating the Godskin Duo wasn't legit because I had +23 greatsword with cold imbue, a level 10 mimic with Radahn's sword on it, AND the NPC summon. I'm almost 40, have a full time job, and family so I don't have infinite time to grind and "get gud" which is why I 100% appreciate the game allowing me to "get ok" and still win.
(full disclosure, I did cheese Moghwyn by using the seal at the fog wall so I'm not saying I haven't done some strait cheesing)
I am sure that I mentioned that FC's real point is probably what you say it is. That he's criticizing people that delegitimize other people.
My main disagreement was that he seems to be saying that "cheese" isn't real.
Did you watch the video?
it's literally written as 'intended' in his tweet. sure we can look past the literal text for the message being conveyed, but not everyone does that, which is the precise reason why social media arguments happen
@@paz1514 Its not even about making excuses, its just he misinterprets Ratatoskrs point (ironically) to defend cowboy when in fact they basically agree and are just arguing about semantics or the definition of what is and isn't "Cheesing" in order to make a point about what is a more valuable or fun experience, which is ultimately subjective and he acknowledges that. LOL.
@@ratatoskr6324 I didn't really get that from his tweets, but I respect your opinion and interpretation.
I remember when darksouls was new, I didn't 'cheese' Ceaseless Discharge by luring him to the fog wall and hitting his fist a few times because the community wasn't sure if that was intentional or not.
Currently, I am playing a Spellblade build with the moonveil, hopefully get access to the Dark Moon Greatsword, all the way Roleplaying with my character, which I intentionally made to look like a Drow from Dungeons and Dragons, and the theme revolves around the Moon. So...I don't really care what people say regarding the cheese and overpoweredness of Moonveil and other thing. I just love the them of Moonveil and I like the change of pace after doing a Quality Build with no magic for my first run (God it hurt, but I did it!). And I look forward to trying out MORE builds after this one!
Good vid though! I agree with plenty of things here, Cowboy's tweets too. No real right or wrong way to play, but soem things do constitute in a grey area of play. Regardless, I say just have fun with what you want for the most part. It's a game after all.
I actually found Moonveil on my own (just heard it was somewhere in Caeild.) I stumbled across it cause I kept exploring mines looking for stones. But I had already used tons of material on my ore blade. So I started over.
When I used it I feel in love. Also, when I restarted I actually found new areas in the beginning that I missed. THAT was a great feeling.
Hmmmm... I dunno, taht definition sounds fishy, if "cheesing is playing and winning at a game by avoiding to engage with its mechanics" then that would mean that playing devil may cry without trying to do combos or change weapons is cheesing.
I think the proper definition might be closer to "DENYING the game a chence to present its mechanics to the player, by exploiting bugs or unintended weak defenses in an opponent"
After all, if you do the whole of the game without killing godrick, but then go back to stormveil to kill him in one hit, did you actually cheese him, or did you just *overpower* him?
That's a big difference, as overpowering is an intended design aspect of rpgs (especially jrpgs, but it applies to all rpgs)all the way back since the nes dragon quest days if not earlier.
The only difference between grinding to level 300 to annihilate any boss vs using azur comet+infinite fp flask is that the latter takes some mental investment and exploration rather than being insanely stubborn at farming a few mobs.
And yet grinding to win has never been looked down upon in 40 years of gaming(even if forcing that has been rightfully seen as poor game design in the last decade)
Even when grinding to win you still would have to dodge and manage to hit. Comet azur is literally pressing 3 buttons as soon as you exit the fog gate
"After all, if you do the whole of the game without killing godrick, but then go back to stormveil to kill him in one hit, did you actually cheese him, or did you just overpower him"
it's funny you should say that... that is precisely what I did lol
@@saphinadarkness2502 well it also doesn't work on every boss eh.
@@deinonychus1948 and point proven
You can always switch to a +0 level weapon and nerf your damage to make the fight a bit more fair.
For me the most devastating nerf was to Radahn. He's still my favorite fight in Elden Ring but beating him pre-nerf was one of my most satisfying accomplishments. Right up there with beating Malenia, beating the tree sentinal right out of the gate, and the first evergaol crucible knight. Oh and Maliketh, that fight is so visually stunning!
I like people to play this game however they want because they might like it enough to try runs without summons or other difficulty modifiers, and it just increases the interest in these games as a whole.
Edit: Spelling
I remember I spent a good 2 hours dying over and over again fighting Radahn on my first playthrough and feeling so relieved when I finally beat him. On my 2nd playthrough after the patch I killed him first try within like 3 minutes. I really think they nerfed him way too hard and made it too easy which is kind of a shame.
radahn was by no means the most complained about hard boss, but they nerfed him instead of malenia or whatever other lategame boss, which makes me think that they just didn't tune things correctly with respect to their intentions - but that's just speculative
what's not speculative is that the meteors were glitched and they didn't mean them to be so nasty, i think
I don't know what the fuck FS is thinking with these patches. They're slowly becoming like a typical aaa game dev company
Radahn's meteors in phase 2 were seriously awful with their tracking and damage. He also, for his placement in the game, did too much damage. Compare him to the enemies in Redmane castle and you'll see what I mean. You're not supposed to have 50 vit by that point.
He was definitely over nerfed.
I beat him into the floor first try at RL50 power stancing +4 hammers while making mistakes.
This is my sand bag character to help my girlfriend with. It had me like "HUH?"
This video is flawed in so many ways, not because it’s poorly made or thought off it’s simply because your version of cheesing just means using the op stuff that a certain build has access to, and this same term can mean something else to others. I agree with fighting cowboy all the way, people just have a sense of acceptance regardless of what the situation is which is the reason why I don’t really care how someone beats a boss or goes through the game.
I.E yesterday I beat godfrey for the first time using comet azure and infinite mana pot for the first phase, but this didn’t just immediately get him to second phase, It took 35 percent of his health so I still had to learn his moveset and find the best way to go about the fight moving forward, after 30min of trying I finally beat the guy after memorizing his moveset and finding the best strats.
And then there’s malenia, I changed my whole mage build to arcane just to use rivers of blood and mimic to beat her because to me her fight was honestly not fun AT ALL, I had learn her moveset and I could dodge her ash of war attack perfectly most of the time but I wasn’t doing enough damage with my wing of Astel so I went for the “cheese” instead of wasting hours of my life just trying to beat her “the legit way” this whole debate is pointless and nobody should care about it.
I have a simple semantic disagreement. "Cheesing" is using UNINTENDED tactics and exploits to beat a boss. Like shooting the Maneaters in Demons Souls from behind the fog wall. Creative use of intended mechanics, no matter how effective, simply isn't cheese. It's smart, adds variety to playstyles and lets the games own mechanics be the difficulty selection. Also, Comet Azur uses a shit ton of FP in a game that gives you an infinite FP buff. It is literally one of the most obvious uses for said buff. And you also, only listed abilities on melee weapons that were nerfed. Comet Azur was strong as hell and still is, as it wasn't nerfed. Like many other powerful spells. Some spells were even buffed.
exactly, cheesing used to mean using a skip if a boss was giving you too much trouble
No, cheesing in not limited to using something unintended.
What you are talking about is called an exploit.
One dictionary definition of "cheese" reads: "to win by using a strategy that requires minimal skill and knowledge or that exploits a glitch or flaw in game design"
Pretty simple and accurate. Hiding behind a wall and shotting an arrow just to hide before an enemy shoots you back XX amount of times is cheesing (in the games like Elden Ring where enemies always take longer to shoot than you do, ofc it's 100% normal in FPS titles where other players can react and shoot you back before you do, thus introducing a "skill" aspect).
Making an enemy fall off the platform when it isnt clearly intended to happen is cheesing.
Spamming the same move XX amount of times because it stunlocks and thus gives your opponent no way to react/defend is cheesing.
Shooting poison arrows from outside of a boss arena is cheesing.
Using a combination of items and attacks that you found on RUclips in one of those cringy videos "How to be an overpowered demigod in Elden Ring and kill every boss and their extended family in 3 seconds while getting all the maidens" without seeing even a fraction of their attacks is cheesing.
Climbing to a place where enemies can't reach you and shooting them from that possition is cheesing etc.
Every exploit performed on an enemy in order to kill it is cheesing but not all cheesing is an exploit.
Obviously not all cheesing is inherently bad though - for example, when in a pinch, randomly finding a spot that you can use to shoot your enemy without getting hit or creating a strong build that goes well together feels rewarding, like you've managed to think outside the box and outsmarted the game.
However, searching the internet for ways to cheese every single boss without ever trying to beat it in the intended way, isn't. If someone's default way of playing the game for the first time is to use whatever they can in order to not play the game correctly (actually experience the boss fight, its moveset etc like the devs intended you to) then at this point you can just download a trainer and launch Infinite HP + One Hit Kill features and be done with it.
@@voicey5831 exactly, cheesing is not just limited to exploiting unintended strategies or bugs or whatever. i think it is both your definition of using minimal skill and knowledge or exploits, but also just missing out on actually experiencing, facing the movesets of enemies by using mechanics like actually having to block or dodge attacks and time your attacks, reading them for openings etc. which of course would require more skill and knowledge but that isn't even the point, it's that people miss out on what makes these games so good.
Thats just your own made up definition of cheesing, tbh, cheesing is a way more broad term and used in many other situations that don't fit your description as an exmaple in starcraft cheese is used to refer to stuff like a turret rush or early game zergling rush, they both use intended game mechanics but attempt to avoid the actual core gameplay by ending the fight early before it develops in a longer and more macro heavy game.
As other peolpe already stated, cheesing is usually based around using easy cheap strats with high win ratio with quite low effort.
@@Otrsor Is that the official definition? Zerg Rush is an amateur move and pretty easy to defend. That's like people saying edge guarding in super smash bros is cheesy because they arent good at the game.
I... kinda find it funny that spirit ashes are considered cheese? Looking up what the most powerful ones are and bum rushing to get them is cheesing, but like... there are several boss encounters I can think of that feel designed with Spirit ashes in mind. Encounters where it's just useful to have something that can momentarily draw aggro while you're trying to back up. Do I use them? Not really, but I do feel the game design has tried to take all the tools we're given into account.
On a different note. Are you considering a video on how awful low level twinking--be it invading or hosting--is from an Elden ring perspective? There are... at least a few key differences between Elden Ring and DS3 that make the PvP very... volatile compared to DS3, and on my second file Limgrave is already infested with scarlet rot and double sepuku bleed spears while the lakes seem to have nothing but ganking hosts... I literally advised my friends trying out the game not to coop until lakes it was so bad with the Limgrave invaders, because I can easily imagine new players quiting over the stuff twinks are using. And in the lakes? Where you get introduced to invasions? How are people supposed to learn it's okay to invade without twinking if everyone's first invasion area is littered with gank squads pulling every trick in the book. I did 10 invasions on that character and found only one real player just playing through the game. Even if it was bad luck, even 5 out of 10 would have been excessive.
I have two bosses left. Melenia & Radagon. Haven’t started with either of the yet as I came to a kind of troubling realization. A lot of the later game fights I just absolutely blew through without bothering to learn anything about how their mechanics worked.
Any time I died to a boss more than a couple times, immediately either scarlet rot breath or the +10 mimic came out. I refused to let myself struggle as I had early game.
For some reason, the first thing I did was boss rush Margit at SL1 and refuse to leave until I beat him. I must have died 50+ times, but holy shit did it feel fucking awesome to beat him that way. It left me feeling awesome and super excited to get thru the game.
Now i’m just kind of dismayed that I had the ability to just put down the fucking hammer and insta win when I wanted to. Missed the opportunity to legit fight OG Radahn, Mohg, Draconic Tree, and a variety of other bosses all that all I did was press L1, run in circles, and let my summon chip away.
Ima try and take these two legit to make up for it. May take me a minute but I think itll b worth it. Wish me luck lol
All i gotta say is: Melania of all bosses you decided to play legit 😅
Radagon on the other hand was a lot of fun so you are definitely gunna be rewarded for your efforts
Exactly how i felt, except i bashed myself against the crucible knight evergaol instead of margit. Once i hit liurnia of the lakes, i started to achieve the elden ring power bloat and dunk through bosses without learning their mechanics, and it made me really sad. I intend to play through again with a weaker weapon to just get a better feel for the game.
The one big part of spirit summons I love is actually getting to feel like a necromancer summoning skeletons. It just adds that little bit of RP for me. Or someone playing a beast master with the beastial incantations using one of the animal summons. I think it makes it more fun. At the end of the day, the very period on the end of the sentence, the direction to which all roads lead is that this is a game meant to be fun.
Wall of text ahead, hopefully it comes off with the tone I want it to have because I think there's a lot to learn about game design and the art here.
I respectfully disagree with your point about the "experience being better if you don't cheese," primarily because of your own argument for locking the game's difficulty.
In previous videos, you've argued that, (paraphrasing,) the game will not get an easy mode, because even if we disagree on this matter, something about this kind of experience draws our crowd in. We don't have to agree on the validity or exclusivity of the experience, because the end result is that this is what the game devs chose to make.
I hope I've represented that argument well, because it's one I fundamentally agree with. Compromising the difficulty would bring fundamental game design changes and otherwise muddy the game's ludo-narrative. However, a version of that same argument is applicable here, I think, for the cheesy crowd.
Your advice that engaging with the game's mechanics makes for a better experience obviously comes from a place of love, both for the games and your desire to spread the good experience you had to a broader community. However, I don't think your advice is fair to apply to as large of a portion of the audience as you think, because many who have heard it were confronted with the game designs pushing them one way, and felt an equal or stronger push towards cheesing by the same game's design. To paraphrase your old argument: if the game were designed to be better with the hard mechanics, there would not be an audience for negating those mechanics. This is a game where you may not only git gud, you may alternatively git smart. And I can cite many instances of the game's mechanics pushing you towards the git smart angle.
Elden Ring, I believe, is a very well-designed game. It teaches lessons like "come back when you're stronger" and "that strategy won't work on this enemy" with frightening efficiency. One of the ways to engage with this game, which has not been in other fromsoft games, is that using collaboration and all the tools at your disposal results in overcoming challenges that you were not just inadequate for, but INCAPABLE of conquering on their own terms.
Just as the locked difficulty is a game mechanic whose results and player engagement speak for themselves, the appeal of overlevelling or skipping mechanics you do not have the patience or skill for speaks for itself. Your advice has been heard, attempted, and summarily discarded by large swaths of the game's audience. I believe this is a testament to the game's design rather than any of us being right about the optimal experience.
To quote MightyKeef, "How they gon' give us accessibility options and then patch them after we bought the game!?"
There’s also the whole “choose your own difficulty via your build” aspect to all souls games. Sorcery has always been the “ez mode” and pure melee has always been hard mode. The game is only as difficult as you make it and saying utilizing the tools they gave you is cheezing rubs me the wrong way
I totally agree. I wouldn't say that cheesing a boss or two has significantly impacted my experience with the other fromsoftware games, as I was just happy to beat them and continue on my journey. What souls games and RPGs in general have taught me is to use every tool in my disposal to win, otherwise I could get easily stuck in a cycle of being completely underpowered and stuck in a hard place. However I got a really bad sinking feeling playing Elden Ring when I first beat Morgott much more easily than I expected, and wiped the floor with Rykard. By using my upgraded mimic tear, and frankly being pretty overleveled, i had pretty much sabotaged my first experience with these bosses and their surrounding areas. I vowed not to use spirit ashes anymore and thankfully the later areas were definitely no pushovers, but my point is whether breaking the game balance or not can ruin your enjoyment of the game or not really depends on a lot of things that I don't know. It really depends
No one suggests you can't overlevel to make a part easier. No one believes you have to beat all 92 elden lords and also Ronald "The Sinner" McDonald to be able to call it a "Good run". That's not what cheese is. Nor is cheese "getting smart". Getting smart is to find an exploit, a flaw, and to abuse it. I'd argue that little strat with the rotten Commander in Caelid is a good example of both Cheesing him AND getting smart. They noticed he was spawned in and ready to fight, and you didn't even have to start the fight to attack him, but once you attacked him the "fight started", so they climbed the tallest tree, got the biggest bow, and peppered him to a very slow and painful death. That's smart, you saw an opening in the environment and found a win.
Finding a flask of infinite magic, then finding the biggest, spammiest, easiest to use spell that will 1 shot the boss, then mashing R1 before the boss moves, attacks, or reacts in any way... that doesn't require a knowledge of the fight, OR the environment, OR the weaknesses of the boss, OR which magics would be best used in the fight... is not getting smart. It's robotic optimization. You don't see the boss, you only see a health bar at the bottom, Comet Azur covers the rest. You don't see mechanics, the boss is dead before Tres Duo Unus Nihil or any other phase 2 mechanic that most players struggled against. You don't have to build HP. You don't even have to build FP, since the infinite is the only thing you care about. You don't cleverly assign your points for "just enough endurance to equip this set and combine it with this greatsword." You *game start, max int, grab big wand, grab potion, play cookie clicker for 300 hours*.
The truth of the matter is, the fact that the advices of veterans has fallen on deaf ears only shows a great amount of painful truth in the statement "GIven the choice, a player will optimize the fun out of a game." No, no matter how hard you try to convince me or anyone else, no one will believe you feel rewarded and proud that you beat the last boss, when your strategy to beat him was the exact same, beat for beat, as defeating the second to last, and third to last, and fourth to last, and fifth to last, and sixth to last, all the way back to the fourth boss you've ever fought, the moment you found the magical potion of "I win."
Getting smart is a strategy. I tried the Comet Azur thing. Beat a few bosses with it. It wasn't fun. I didn't have any interaction with it, and after I decimated Morgott with it, I sighed and simply refused to use it again. Every other boss I fought from that point was without the magical bullshit laser. Intelligence is fun. It IS about getting smart, not getting good. It is NOT about one button wins, that's cheese, and you can find that in any build. I had to learn when to use Loretta's Mastery to shoot some arrows, because the charge took a long time and sometimes the boss was too far for any other spell but I had to learn quickly that the boss' gap closers will punish me for sitting still and barraging them. I had to learn when to use Great Glintstone Shard, and when to avoid using it because the boss is dodging everything I throw at it (Malenia), in which case I use Magic Glintblade, because they dodge the cast, but not the actual projectile itself, since it's delayed. I had to learn some of the intelligence weapons, like Astel's little Nebula Wing, or Gideon's All-Knowing Staff, because sometimes spells just come out too slow. I *still* didn't have to learn uptime windows and perfect dodge rolling attacks, I *still* didn't have to worry about gitting gud. But I had to get smart. I had to play properly. I had 12 memory slots, and I didn't have to use only 1.
Did you know that Founder's Stars is amazing against large target enemies like the Elden Beast or Dragonlord Placidusax? Did you know that Ambush Shard can catch Niall a lot, since he limps? Did you know that Rock Fling is absolutely amazing at far ranged tracking when you don't have time for a Loretta's Mastery, and if you use it regularly enough in a fast-paced fight you know you have little time in (MALENIA), you can stagger the enemy boss pretty regularly, twice or thrice? And at that point, you can use a magic-infused Misericorde to deal real damage?
Did you know that damage-reducing Wondrous Physicks and an Ironjar Perfume allows you to get off some SERIOUS damage using those Carian sword spells against bosses? And that you don't have to self-activate Carian Retaliation on your shield using the Glintstone Pebble cheese exploit, you can just USE IT AGAINST BOSSES THAT HAVE MAGIC LIKE RADAGON OR RENNALA OR GIDEON OR THE ELDEN BEAST?
Probably not, you learned that all of it is pointless because you can just chug chug, terra magicka, comet. Because you see victory as the only goal, so things that won't get the victory as easily are pointless.
To quote DJ Khaled, "Congratulations. You played yourself."
I can't agree more.
For me, the moment a friend of mine, who was playing a mage build, called me up on discord to show me his Comet Azur + Flask of Wondrous Physick combo that he found while playing blind, the excitement and joy in his voice as he showed it off to me by blasting Black Gargoyle Kindred off the face of the Earth, that moment was exactly what Elden Ring is all about.
It's about discovering something new and incredible and using it to overcome something big and scary. Sometimes you do that my bashing your head against the wall of a boss to learn their exact attack patterns, by buying a shackle from Patches and crippling a difficult boss, by using an 'overpowered' spell, and sometimes by doing a cool 2v2 duel against some Crucible Knights with your mimic tear, where you sync up together and absolutely smash some dudes.
All of those things are amazing, intended and valid ways to play the game. Some of them might be cheesing, depending on your definition, but none of them deserve any ounce of derision.
@@titusfortunus2916 i wonder why i can't see you in the comment section or anywhere else but my notifications. kind of werid
But they didn’t patch comet azure so that kind of defeats your argument. Cheesing is shooting mohg from outside the arena or glitching a boss to die from gravity (giant)/or turn off the AI (mohg/Elden beast).
If you make it to level 600 and a boss is like fighting throwaway mobs is that cheesing? No it’s not, you invested your time and stats to get to that point.
If you go balls to the wall INT while staying in a reasonable level to the zone and can do comet azure to kill bosses, I bet there’s other things that are challenging that aren’t to others because of your stat distribution.
I have always seen the term “cheesing” used to mean exploiting bugs to gain an unintended advantage, and infinite FP + Comet Azure (or whatever other OP tactic) is most definitely not that. As Fighting Cowboy said, it’s just using the tools the game gives you. In my book, that’s categorically different than cheesing, even if both allow you to circumvent a boss’s mechanics.
Separate to the question of what is or isn’t cheesing though, I agree that one can get more out of the game by engaging with the mechanics of the encounters, but circumventing them is still legitimate.
yeah I agree with this. comet azure ,while you can get to it right from the start, still takes quite a bit of grinding and knowledge of certain items to unlock. It's clearly a late game item. now you can call it unbalanced or poor design but I think that's different from saying that the player has done something unintended
Cheesing has never ment exploiting bugs. Exploiting is the term for exploiting bugs. Ratatoskr is correct. When you play a fighting game and some one uses combos that stun locks you to the point you can't fight back, they didn't exploit a bug, they engauged in a manner that removed you from the game, thus they did not engauge organically. You are completely wrong on this.