Sansa's got the right idea. things fell apart for Rob when he executed Lord karstark. He lost the Karstarks and needed more from Frey as a result which is where the red wedding happens. If he had simply relieved Karstark of command and sent him home or even the wall he would have kept his son's respect and they wouldn't have ridden home.
@@NangDoofer His mother had no business offering a Kings hand in marriage to such a girl. Catelyn was obsessed with being a southern lady but she played the game worse then Ned.
It’s interesting that this short conversation proved that at that moment Sansa knew how to win wars and Arya only battles. You can’t just chop off leaders heads and expect their men to fight for you. And the crazy part is, if Arya did what she wanted Jon and Sansa and the rest of winter fell looking up at them would’ve lost faith in them. And abandoned them again.
Fair enough, but Sansa would've lost the only battle that mattered without Arya and Jon: the Battle of Winterfell against the army of the dead. They all needed each other, as they all had separate, necessary gifts and talents.
So the conniving queen wannabe kept her mouth shut that she sent for Knights of the Vale w/o telling Jon, resulting in Jon going with "what he had", getting soooo many killed. Yes, Sansa the great strategist!?🙄
@@kathyfahey5469 i wouldn't go that far. This season was poorly written. But based off of dialogue, i still think in the moment Sansa was thinking long term. Their allies were already worn thin because of the battle of the bastards. Chopping off whoever's head was left over from that just cause they didn't fall in line is a temporary solution with fatal long term consequences.
Honestly, they did these two very badly. In the show they give the impression that they hate each other, when in the books they often miss and think about each other. A real reunion would be much less problematic.
Arya is an assassin, not a general. Sansa looks at achieving the big game, multiple games, orchestrating as LF taught, though a quick battle could be more efficient. They both have strengths here for different scenarios, and they’d balance each other nicely.
What General ??? Even if one ignores what she did with the Vale knights during the Battle of Bastards and her reaction when she was told that Jon was Alive. She opposed Jon going to Dragonstone & then she wanted Dany gone from Winterfell.. Did the Northern lords stand a chance against the WWs seeing that only Dragon glass hurts them and it was Only available at Dragonstone ?? Also, the North had no more than 0.01% of surviving the WWs invasion without Dany’s armies and Dragons and Sansa didn’t want Danerys in Winterfell. The fact is that Sansa and the Northern Lords cared more about their Fiefdoms and Influence than about the survival of their people while Jon did everything to make sure that the people had a Real chance of surviving the Inevitable Whitewalker attack ..
@@hadikhan5197 I think you’re responding to the wrong thread. Not sure what your comment has to do with my observations about the characters’ strengths and weaknesses but ok
Arya already knows she isn't a leader. Neither knows the others experience. They only know each other from long ago. Arya already knows her role is advisory.... for now
Arya looks like aStark, but her mannerisms are Tull y( family,duty,Honor )with a little Lyanna. Sansa looks Tully, but her mannerisms are all Ned, and book and show put her in same situations as her father, from same route taken out of KL, to the Vale, add both Ned and Sansa position naked in front of a window breathing in the cold and snow , Sansa in the Eyrie, Ned in Winterfell and Sansa like Arya has a touch of Lyanna, Sansa song and poetry, Arya rebellus.
Sansa has been more correct than wrong, she refused LF in Molestown because she believed her father's words on North Loyalty, and not knowing how badly Robb screwed up- Davos mentions a warning at the table, after Lord Glover face to face Sansa learned just how badly Robb screwed up, and seeing Jon adamant Sansa put herself out to LF as a prize, knowing she will have to eventually deal with him. Arya was short sighted and still stuck in S1 with Sansa at Baelor NOT KNOWING what Sansa was trying to save their father.
I never liked Sansa, she was never very loyal to her family, she fit right in with Littlefinger because they both only ever looked out for themselves. But somehow Littlefinger still managed to be more likable than Sansa
@@cinderfox5217 I could agree with that, you know she said loyalty to family a lot in the end but like all said and done it was just her. Like she rarely had tender moments with her family throughout the show
I'm not a fan of Sansa, but I know she has a different sort of strength within her. Sometimes ignorance can be a strength. She had no idea what she was in for when she first went to Kings Landing with her father and that perhaps is why she is still alive today. She was gullible to a fault. And that is what saved her.
"Offend them and Jon looses his army" "Not if they lose their heads first" That was exactly the mistake Rob made. Did Arya think the armies would stay loyal if their lords were executed?
Jon did lose the battle of the bastards though ! Sansa brought the army that won them Winterfell back. So I'd say "we" is the right pronoun here, they both had a part to play !
@@bullesavon the army she hide from him? Either bad writing or she used him as bait and the showrunner hide that cause they didn't want to Sansa look bad.
@@damonlongstreet8630Sansa had sent a letter to Littlefinger requesting his assistance, but she didn't know when or whether he would arrive. Sansa wanted to keep the arrival of the Knights of the Vale a secret to surprise Ramsay and increase their chances of winning the battle. Her actions were driven by the goal of defeating Ramsay and reclaiming Winterfell, not purposely hide Jon
@@damonlongstreet8630Sansa didn’t get s response from Little Finger, so she didn’t know whether or not they would come. From a strategic point of view, it was better that she didn’t tell Jon, so that there would have been no room for complacency. From the Art of War, Sun Tzu once said: “Throw your soldiers into positions whence there is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight. If they will face death, there is nothing they may not achieve. Officers and men alike will put forth their uttermost strength. Soldiers in desperate straits lose the sense of fear.”
You people talk like the date of War couldn’t have been delayed for a couple of days to wait. Also, surprising Ramsey had nothing to do with telling Jon about her letter to Vale Knights. It’s not like Jon was going to tell Ramsey that there is a chance that Vale Knights were on their way to help them out .. Show Sansa wanted to be the Ruler of North/Winterfell whatever the cost. It’s too evident in the show. She was seeing her brother Bran for the first time in Years and the first thing she said to Bran was about him being the Lord of Winterfell. Not to forget that he was her Only surviving brother who she thought had died ..
Jon: We need more men. Sansa: That's sucks, would be a shame If an army was right around the corner and would actually help oh wait. Jon: What? Sansa: Nothing go be bait and we'll never discuss this again.
@@damonlongstreet8630exactly. Sansa was using kings landing politics in the north. If the Snow show ever happens, I wonder what the view of Sansa will be. I don’t think she’d be a popular queen
@@Falconforge89 oh she wouldn't be popular, especially if they learned what she was doing bts. But dumb and dumber removed logic so they probably make her the "the great ruler the north has ever seen", doesn't mean much when that same logic was used on everyone in Kings Landing,j ust suddenly loved Cersie in S7/8 when they wanted her dead from s2-6
@@damonlongstreet8630 I feel one of the issues with dumb and dumber was that they were reading peoples “storylines” of how the show should end. These “storylines” were actually pretty good and they felt like they didn’t want to be predictable. Sometimes taking a complete left turn doesn’t work. You sometimes crash into a wall when doing that. An ice wall in there case lol.
Interesting fact about this main room: is that it's warmer then any other in the castle because there are pipes with hot spring water coursing through it. So it's very special
This scene was to deceive little finger so he thinks the girls are at odds with each other and see if he would try to manipulate Sansa which he fell for and Arya cut his throat the same way she expressed in this scene they always knew he was the enemy and was just after power Sansa saw that first hand with the way he gave her to the Boltons
Arya pissed me off the minute she escaped somehow alive from being stabbed by the Waif. She became way too cocky (not talking about when she was playing with Sansa to kill Littlefinger), even with her sister, whom she never really liked. The last two seasons of that show were bs.
Arya is an angry child, trained to be an assassin without understanding the philosophy of the faceless men. Sansa was forced to learn, that actions have consequences. She needed to learn to play the game and she understands the necessity of compromise.
I get that they were probably already doing the bit for Littlefinger in this scene, but I still hate how smug Arya is. It’s like she came in trying to pick a fight, and she thinks she’s better than Sansa because she can hold a sword. She still has the mentality of a 10yo despite everything she went through; it’s like Sansa is the only one who actually grew up.
I mean “listening to complaints” is a requirement in democracy where people’s voices matter, but they are in a feudal society where open questioning can lead to dissent and rebellion. Sansa letting these lords voice their treason out loud in her family’s hall wasn’t the best political choice
yeah, and it makes sense Jon would. sure it belongs to the King of the North or Warden of the North depending on the title, but the room wasn’t just Ned’s it was also Catelyn’s and im sure Jon would’ve given it to Sansa no problem
Before Jon became king, Sansa was already automatically Lady of Winterfell, both when she was married to Ramsay and afterwards. So it seems very obvious to me that she would take the rooms and I don't think Jon would take them.
The writers were this close to writing an intelligent argument for these two. Arya's first point was legit. Sansa shouldn't allow insults to be said about Jon. Tywin, Bran, Robb, Viserys I Targaryen and Daemon Targaryen all verbally shut down snide comments or treasonous statements and showed just what the hierarchy is. This is something that leaders do with their subordinates. Sansa is under Jon. If she was loyal to him she would have been saying that Jon is the King and that she would not tolerate treasonous or petty insults comments. Sansa's response that she shouldn't "offend" men with armies at their command is slightly less Intelligent and I blame the writers here. Glover is basically re-sworn to the Starks. Glover is under Sansa, and it is most definitely her place to remind him of his. Royce is more complicated but if Sansa is so smart now she should be able to shut his comments down easily and with grace. And then the writers go and undermine Arya by making her say that murder is always the answer.
I think Sansas point being that they JUST got their home back. Everyone already has little faith in them because their house fell so hard. They just got everything back and are trying to rebuild, so she's trying to build that relationship back up. If she just shut people down when they spoke their opinions at this point, they'd just leave. They have to reestablish loyalty. Where I agree that a good ruler wouldn't let anyone talk badly about them, their house isn't strong enough to do that quite yet. They need to earn that respect back
@@kelgirl99 true. Though in-universe it would be more advisable to shoot down comments(with grace! Diplomacy requires grace 79% of the time) like that because there's a difference between passive aggressive undermining in private and undermining in public with witnesses.after all, Sansa is Holding Court, in her Home, and allowing this shit during a public event with lots of lords witnessing this is a Horrible Mistep at best, regardless of whether you're new in power or not.
Hate how Arya acts in this scene. You would think that based on all she has been through she would understand Sansa more. Why is Cersei on her kill list if she thinks Sansa was living it up in the castle.
Arya was trained by assassin the only thing she knows is death and revenge, so how would she possibly understand Sansa I’m this scene. And Cersei was on her list as extension to Joffrey, she stood on the podium where here father was killed so to Arya she may as well have played part in it.
She's bright. She's not a *diplomat*. She cares more about family than the bigger picture. Politics and strategy are just as important as the willingness to destroy when it comes to war.
@@DarkRubberDucky She’s not dumb but there isn’t a single instance in the show that depicts her as more intelligent than the average joe. She isn’t bright.
@@adrianavargova “There’s so many that I can’t think of a particular one” lmfao. I’ll cut you some slack because it can be hard to remember specific examples like this but unless you can think of anything this is just two assholes arguing over nothing in a comment section without any substance
i was very disappointed that instead of staying united in some way, the girls started drifting and even had a few antagonizing scenes. sansa never had those with jon or bran. the same with arya never having those with her brothers. and even when you bring up that the girls never really got along well from before, sansa didn’t get along with jon either before. seems very sketchy they decided to give the sisters more emotionally distant and trying to establish whose more dominant in the scene
Arya and Sansa more than just "didn't get along." They hated each other. Sansa stuck up for Joffrey after he bullied Arya and had her friend murdered. Then Sansa's direwolf had its head chopped off in place of Arya's who had run off. Arya's last memory of Sansa was her standing next to Joffrey as he gave the order to cut off her father's head. After all that, it would make zero sense for them to be all buddy buddy without working through their issues.
@@cryptaku3404 Sansa didn't exactly stand up for Joffrey, she was a child and torn as to whether to tell the truth and call the Prince a liar to the king's face (something that has consequences, even she knew that at her age), or lie and say her sister was the liar. Ultimately she said she didn't know, she didn't see, she tried to stay out of the fight how she could when commanded to speak to the king. For the rest of it though I 100% agree, they were never going to be friendly until they worked through their issues. Sansa was mean to Jon but ultimately ignored him for the most part, they weren't around each other all that much, Sansa being a trueborn daughter and Jon being a bastard son they weren't constantly in the same room as each other growing up. Sansa and Arya on the other hand, both trueborn daughters, were taught many of the same things, almost always together throughout the day, and they didn't get along. Being constantly in the presence of someone you don't get along with growing up isn't conducive to being all buddy buddy after years of separation either.
I think it was intended to imply that at some point, the girls were onto Baelish’s scheming, and began staging their infighting to keep him in the dark. It just wasn’t made clear exactly when they put their plan into action.
Arya dint really know what her sister went through. Din't understand her never did actually untill at the very end ...she always had her gurd up and never trusted her....
No that's not the point she has pain but hasn't broken only broken people with nothing can become pychos she still has friends even tho they dying and jon
Sansa foi muito melhor do que Ária nesse momento. Ária falar sobre cortar cabeças está muito mais para agir como Cersei do que como uma pessoa que odeia Cersei exatamente por ela agir assim, pois Cersei faria isso, como fez ao explodir o cepitão com todos seus inimigos daquele momento dentro dele. Sansa foi muito mais na linha de Jon Snow, Jon jamais faria o que Ária estava sugerindo o que Sansa fizesse.
I like how much Sansa has grown and adapted a wider frame of mind and a longitudinal considerations for her decisions. From a a naive, helpless girl she evolved into a key player who can factor different variables out and consider multiple approaches along with the possible repercussions of her moves. Despite both sisters dealing with situationism throughout the seasons, Arya’s mental dimensions was static. She had become good at killing, but that’s all there was to her. Her ontology had no evolution. Pretty much, Arya is a renegade who’s good at killing but can be killed just as well. Sansa knew how to secure forces and maintain upkeep. Arya is like a riderless dragon or the Mountain, she does her job well but she eill get herself in shit situations without proper direction.
Why y’all acting like Sansa isn’t Sansa? As if she isn’t power hungry or dangerous? She’s so diplomatic but yet she’s also trying to depose her allies. Yeah she cares about her family, but she wants power, maybe even at the detriment to her family. How often did this chick speak out when Jon was talking? How many times has she blatantly disrespected him as king of the north? She wanted the power for herself.
EVERYONE on the show wants power, especially Daenerys and Cersei, but Sansa is the only one? If Sansa had wanted power or the crown, she would have gotten it when they offered it to her in season 7. Sansa already has power. She is one of the most powerful women in Westeros.
@@erys8957 Daenerys & cersei make it clear time & time again that they need power so ofc we aren't surprised. this girl on the other hand acts like she doesn't & she as if she cares about her family but behind anyone can see she's just as power hungry.
@@angelyuqi6709 Yes of course, too bad Sansa is only 12 years old and it is instilled in her from the very beginning that she has to get married and have children. If you have read the books or watched the show well, you know very well that Sansa never really thinks about power and becoming Queen, but about getting married and having children, becoming queen is just a side effect of marrying Joffrey. I would not say the same about Dany and Cersei. She is offered the crown in season 7, if you remember, Jon is a bastard, she could have taken it from him at any time. But of course you can think whatever you want ✌️
She did. It's why she insisted they keep their faith in Jon and she didn't jump at the opportunity to take over for him when Lord Glover suggested it. She continued to take up for Jon, though he increasingly behaved like an idiot.
@@neville2308 They Didn't fake Jack, Sansa was going after Arya after that lil talk with Little Finger, she just Consulted Bran FIRST who give her far more than she ever expected, that was when she realised she was being Pitted against Arya with LF manipulation, and he was the course of more problems than they ever realise.
@@TwiceStruck Yes, and that is when Arya and Sansa started faking their arguments, because they knew what Little Finger was up to, and that he was secretly spying on them as well. As a result, he thought he was getting away with yet another of his scheming plans to pit the sisters against each other, meanwhile they were just playing Baelish, until the day of his surprise trial.
@@neville2308 it's been confirmed all of there fight was real in s7, Confirmed by Scripts Sansa WAS gonna execute Ayra but went to Bran first (OFFSCREEN) and told her everything.
Arya didn’t grow up around two faced nobles who could teach her how to lead, she grew up with death and a desire for revenge. She’s not just a “sad ignorant girl with a sword” she’s an assassin who was taught to kill to get what she needed. Of course she wouldn’t be good at politics. And Sansa didn’t understand the game either. She just stole all the bad personality traits of people who DID know how to play.
Arya's right. Sansa started all the problems because she's always thought herself better than everyone. She lied for and defended Joffrey because she wanted to be a princess. Everything that followed she brought on them and herself. I would've preferred Danaerys lived and Sansa died. What did Sansa contribute without causing problems for others?
Sansa contributed Jack sht. She spent most of the show being rescued. Saved from the Lannisters by Littlefinger, then saved again by him from Lysa, then it was Theon saving her from Myranda and the Boltons, then it was Brienne and Pod, then God knows who while she was in the crypt during the long night. She was annoying and useless the entire show. No one would care for her if her last name wasn't Stark
I'm sorry but when has Sansa ever believed herself to be better than everyone? 😂😂😂 Daenerys burned down an entire city, I think that alone is a bigger problem than the 'problems Sansa caused'. Besides Daenerys did what she had to do, if she hadn't helped the North she would have been a huge hypocrite.
@@thesella well she's not a warrior and back then she doesn't have an army she was living with her enemies by herself also danaerys would be like sansa if she doesn't have dragons
@Tota Toha she didn't have to be a warrior to stand up for herself. Even a pregnant Dany stood up to Viserys when he smacked her around. Sansa couldn't even do that to her aunt Lysa and she was the weakest of the bunch that tormented her
Every time I see a scene with Arya and Sansa, I think of this. Sansa should've turned into the cold-blooded warrior, and Arya should've turned ex warrior into a queen/politician. After everything Sansa went through, it just never feels right to me how 'normal' she is. And to me, Arya's journey would've made her a great leader. She could politic but make threats and back them up personally.
Terrible dialogue. And Arya is coming off like an annoying twat. Inconsistent character writing. Like a poor version of Cersei and Joffrey talking about bending the north to their knees.
@@apachec5589 If you ever go to a restaurant and the food happen to be terrible, remember: By your own logic you'll have no right to complain, unless you're a chef. If you're not, just go eat Subway or something.
@@apachec5589 You absolutely have the right to your opinion, which is fair. But I'm also allowed to criticize how they destroyed such a great series after I spent good money and time subscribing to HBO only for this show. I suppose the real problem is that I cared too much for the show and it's characters.... 😭
You’re an idi0t and never watched the show, clearly. This “terrible dialogue” is done so on purpose make them look bad and make you mad and confused and it is a RUSE to try and execute little finger and it worked and it was a great twist and gotcha moment on the show. It’s not inconsistent. In the end they tell everyone hey this was a fake thing we did this and pretended we hate each other to catch little finger. He tried to turn their mom and aunt against each other this same way so it was poetic and ironic and GOOD WRITING.
In the beginning I did too from her naive stupidity and looking at the world through rose colored glasses. But I started like then love her character progression. In the show she is the only Stark's ending I rooted for and wished since she left the Vale to be the ruler of the North. Here's to the Queen in the North!
Lol, sure, cut off the Lords’ heads over petty insults. Sure worked out for Robb when he cut off Karstark’s head, and his offense was worse than insults
Because she did not want to ask Littlefinger for help and because then she was not even sure of their arrival. If she had told him, Jon would not have accepted Littlefinger's help.
![CHILE vs. BRASIL [1-2] | RESUMEN | ELIMINATORIAS SUDAMERICANAS | FECHA 9](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/5ObJt_71AYc/mqdefault.jpg)
Here Arya talk like a Assassin and Sansa like a diplomat/politician.
Sansa's got the right idea. things fell apart for Rob when he executed Lord karstark. He lost the Karstarks and needed more from Frey as a result which is where the red wedding happens. If he had simply relieved Karstark of command and sent him home or even the wall he would have kept his son's respect and they wouldn't have ridden home.
Frey was important because of the trident not because of his men
@@seanmurphy9913 Until Rob pissed off the Karstarks and they rode home. Without the Karstark men he needed more soldiers.
Rob made stupid decisions one after another, killing his own kin, not honoring frey betrothal , not listening to his own commanders etc.
He shouldn't have snubbed the Freys in the first place by breaking his promise.
@@NangDoofer His mother had no business offering a Kings hand in marriage to such a girl. Catelyn was obsessed with being a southern lady but she played the game worse then Ned.
It’s interesting that this short conversation proved that at that moment Sansa knew how to win wars and Arya only battles. You can’t just chop off leaders heads and expect their men to fight for you. And the crazy part is, if Arya did what she wanted Jon and Sansa and the rest of winter fell looking up at them would’ve lost faith in them. And abandoned them again.
Fair enough, but Sansa would've lost the only battle that mattered without Arya and Jon: the Battle of Winterfell against the army of the dead. They all needed each other, as they all had separate, necessary gifts and talents.
So the conniving queen wannabe kept her mouth shut that she sent for Knights of the Vale w/o telling Jon, resulting in Jon going with "what he had", getting soooo many killed. Yes, Sansa the great strategist!?🙄
@@TheAutumnWind_RN4L agreed
@@kathyfahey5469 i wouldn't go that far. This season was poorly written. But based off of dialogue, i still think in the moment Sansa was thinking long term. Their allies were already worn thin because of the battle of the bastards. Chopping off whoever's head was left over from that just cause they didn't fall in line is a temporary solution with fatal long term consequences.
@Kathy Fahey I don't think she wanted to have to ask Peter for his army because that means owing him something. But Jon didn't want to wait
Keep in mind neither have seen eachother or know what eachothers been through since they were children
Yea until Bran told them 😂
Honestly, they did these two very badly. In the show they give the impression that they hate each other, when in the books they often miss and think about each other. A real reunion would be much less problematic.
Arya is an assassin, not a general. Sansa looks at achieving the big game, multiple games, orchestrating as LF taught, though a quick battle could be more efficient. They both have strengths here for different scenarios, and they’d balance each other nicely.
it took me a while to realise that LF was Littlefinger and not Lord F-wit
What General ??? Even if one ignores what she did with the Vale knights during the Battle of Bastards and her reaction when she was told that Jon was Alive.
She opposed Jon going to Dragonstone & then she wanted Dany gone from Winterfell..
Did the Northern lords stand a chance against the WWs seeing that only Dragon glass hurts them and it was Only available at Dragonstone ??
Also, the North had no more than 0.01% of surviving the WWs invasion without Dany’s armies and Dragons and Sansa didn’t want Danerys in Winterfell.
The fact is that Sansa and the Northern Lords cared more about their Fiefdoms and Influence than about the survival of their people while Jon did everything to make sure that the people had a Real chance of surviving the Inevitable Whitewalker attack ..
@@hadikhan5197 I think you’re responding to the wrong thread. Not sure what your comment has to do with my observations about the characters’ strengths and weaknesses but ok
Shows how much Sansa has grown, as a person, as a lady
Arya already knows she isn't a leader. Neither knows the others experience. They only know each other from long ago. Arya already knows her role is advisory.... for now
Arya is more like executioner. Anyone oppose or insult her family, she kill. No matter how much.
Arya looks like aStark, but her mannerisms are Tull y( family,duty,Honor )with a little Lyanna.
Sansa looks Tully, but her mannerisms are all Ned, and book and show put her in same situations as her father, from same route taken out of KL, to the Vale, add both Ned and Sansa position naked in front of a window breathing in the cold and snow , Sansa in the Eyrie, Ned in Winterfell and Sansa like Arya has a touch of Lyanna, Sansa song and poetry, Arya rebellus.
I agree with Sansa. They had to WIN Winterfell back
Did arya forget that cutting the heads off lords causes you to loose their men, the karstarks for example...
tbf i doubt she heard about that because she was doing her tours throughout the Riverlands by then.
Sansa is a diplomatic. Ayra is more like the CIA Both of them are necessary.
Sansa has been more correct than wrong, she refused LF in Molestown because she believed her father's words on North Loyalty, and not knowing how badly Robb screwed up- Davos mentions a warning at the table, after Lord Glover face to face Sansa learned just how badly Robb screwed up, and seeing Jon adamant Sansa put herself out to LF as a prize, knowing she will have to eventually deal with him.
Arya was short sighted and still stuck in S1 with Sansa at Baelor NOT KNOWING what Sansa was trying to save their father.
Made sense because the last time they met each other arya could see how bad Joffery was but Sansa would stand beside him and say nothing to anyone
She didn't change much.
Cuz I want to be queen!!!
I never liked Sansa, she was never very loyal to her family, she fit right in with Littlefinger because they both only ever looked out for themselves. But somehow Littlefinger still managed to be more likable than Sansa
@@cinderfox5217 I could agree with that, you know she said loyalty to family a lot in the end but like all said and done it was just her. Like she rarely had tender moments with her family throughout the show
I'm not a fan of Sansa, but I know she has a different sort of strength within her. Sometimes ignorance can be a strength. She had no idea what she was in for when she first went to Kings Landing with her father and that perhaps is why she is still alive today. She was gullible to a fault. And that is what saved her.
"Offend them and Jon looses his army"
"Not if they lose their heads first"
That was exactly the mistake Rob made. Did Arya think the armies would stay loyal if their lords were executed?
The whole thing about ASOIAF that GOT kind of dropped was how peasants have their own opinions on stuff.
Man sansa has grown so much
Sansa was right. They lost a lot of men taking Winterfell back and Arya wasn’t even there to slice the necks of their enemies. 🙄
I don't remember much but wasn't she away taking care of the freys
@@federalbubinspector1869 that was in the later seasons
Watching these two hold on to the North would make for an interesting series.
Sansa: “we took it back”
Jon: *stares after doing all the fighting*
Jon did lose the battle of the bastards though ! Sansa brought the army that won them Winterfell back. So I'd say "we" is the right pronoun here, they both had a part to play !
@@bullesavon the army she hide from him? Either bad writing or she used him as bait and the showrunner hide that cause they didn't want to Sansa look bad.
@@damonlongstreet8630Sansa had sent a letter to Littlefinger requesting his assistance, but she didn't know when or whether he would arrive. Sansa wanted to keep the arrival of the Knights of the Vale a secret to surprise Ramsay and increase their chances of winning the battle. Her actions were driven by the goal of defeating Ramsay and reclaiming Winterfell, not purposely hide Jon
@@damonlongstreet8630Sansa didn’t get s response from Little Finger, so she didn’t know whether or not they would come. From a strategic point of view, it was better that she didn’t tell Jon, so that there would have been no room for complacency. From the Art of War, Sun Tzu once said: “Throw your soldiers into positions whence there is no escape, and they will prefer death to flight. If they will face death, there is nothing they may not achieve. Officers and men alike will put forth their uttermost strength. Soldiers in desperate straits lose the sense of fear.”
You people talk like the date of War couldn’t have been delayed for a couple of days to wait. Also, surprising Ramsey had nothing to do with telling Jon about her letter to Vale Knights. It’s not like Jon was going to tell Ramsey that there is a chance that Vale Knights were on their way to help them out ..
Show Sansa wanted to be the Ruler of North/Winterfell whatever the cost. It’s too evident in the show. She was seeing her brother Bran for the first time in Years and the first thing she said to Bran was about him being the Lord of Winterfell. Not to forget that he was her Only surviving brother who she thought had died ..
Arya was so obnoxious up until the little finger scene. Sansa honestly one I'd the best characters on GoT. Her choices were realistic and wise.
Jon: We need more men.
Sansa: That's sucks, would be a shame If an army was right around the corner and would actually help oh wait.
Jon: What?
Sansa: Nothing go be bait and we'll never discuss this again.
@@damonlongstreet8630exactly. Sansa was using kings landing politics in the north. If the Snow show ever happens, I wonder what the view of Sansa will be. I don’t think she’d be a popular queen
@@Falconforge89 oh she wouldn't be popular, especially if they learned what she was doing bts. But dumb and dumber removed logic so they probably make her the "the great ruler the north has ever seen", doesn't mean much when that same logic was used on everyone in Kings Landing,j ust suddenly loved Cersie in S7/8 when they wanted her dead from s2-6
@@damonlongstreet8630 I feel one of the issues with dumb and dumber was that they were reading peoples “storylines” of how the show should end. These “storylines” were actually pretty good and they felt like they didn’t want to be predictable. Sometimes taking a complete left turn doesn’t work. You sometimes crash into a wall when doing that. An ice wall in there case lol.
Sansa ended up with a throne. What she always wanted.
Ok but Sansa's outfit here is awesome
It worked like a charm the last time this approach was tried (with the Karstarks)
Interesting fact about this main room: is that it's warmer then any other in the castle because there are pipes with hot spring water coursing through it. So it's very special
Arya was just playing the game of faces with Sansa to clarify Sansa's intentions. My head canon.
I was looking for this comment
@blor3664 wr love them because they have flaws, that makes it more realistic
This scene was to deceive little finger so he thinks the girls are at odds with each other and see if he would try to manipulate Sansa which he fell for and Arya cut his throat the same way she expressed in this scene they always knew he was the enemy and was just after power Sansa saw that first hand with the way he gave her to the Boltons
Sansa's a cleverpants
And...they won
All winning from Aria with one dagger. ;-)
Words are one thing.
And actions make the different
Jon maybe a good leader, but not a politician. Sansa is. Arya..... an assassin.
Arya pissed me off the minute she escaped somehow alive from being stabbed by the Waif. She became way too cocky (not talking about when she was playing with Sansa to kill Littlefinger), even with her sister, whom she never really liked.
The last two seasons of that show were bs.
Yesss her cockyness annoys me too! She absolutely got into diva mode while she could have just stayed in tomboy mode, it suited her much better
Arya was always right
Arya is an angry child, trained to be an assassin without understanding the philosophy of the faceless men.
Sansa was forced to learn, that actions have consequences. She needed to learn to play the game and she understands the necessity of compromise.
Sansa the girl who wants it all. Like she said ep1 "I want to be Queen. It's the only thing I've ever wanted."
Sansa has the right idea here.
Arya and Jon were awesome
I get that they were probably already doing the bit for Littlefinger in this scene, but I still hate how smug Arya is. It’s like she came in trying to pick a fight, and she thinks she’s better than Sansa because she can hold a sword. She still has the mentality of a 10yo despite everything she went through; it’s like Sansa is the only one who actually grew up.
I mean “listening to complaints” is a requirement in democracy where people’s voices matter, but they are in a feudal society where open questioning can lead to dissent and rebellion. Sansa letting these lords voice their treason out loud in her family’s hall wasn’t the best political choice
Maybe that was her plan.
I don’t like that she just assumed she should have their parents room…
more like she assumed Jon would
She didn't assume that. Jon gave it to her.
yeah, and it makes sense Jon would. sure it belongs to the King of the North or Warden of the North depending on the title, but the room wasn’t just Ned’s it was also Catelyn’s and im sure Jon would’ve given it to Sansa no problem
It’s a room
Before Jon became king, Sansa was already automatically Lady of Winterfell, both when she was married to Ramsay and afterwards. So it seems very obvious to me that she would take the rooms and I don't think Jon would take them.
The writers were this close to writing an intelligent argument for these two.
Arya's first point was legit. Sansa shouldn't allow insults to be said about Jon. Tywin, Bran, Robb, Viserys I Targaryen and Daemon Targaryen all verbally shut down snide comments or treasonous statements and showed just what the hierarchy is. This is something that leaders do with their subordinates. Sansa is under Jon. If she was loyal to him she would have been saying that Jon is the King and that she would not tolerate treasonous or petty insults comments.
Sansa's response that she shouldn't "offend" men with armies at their command is slightly less Intelligent and I blame the writers here. Glover is basically re-sworn to the Starks. Glover is under Sansa, and it is most definitely her place to remind him of his. Royce is more complicated but if Sansa is so smart now she should be able to shut his comments down easily and with grace.
And then the writers go and undermine Arya by making her say that murder is always the answer.
I think Sansas point being that they JUST got their home back. Everyone already has little faith in them because their house fell so hard. They just got everything back and are trying to rebuild, so she's trying to build that relationship back up. If she just shut people down when they spoke their opinions at this point, they'd just leave. They have to reestablish loyalty. Where I agree that a good ruler wouldn't let anyone talk badly about them, their house isn't strong enough to do that quite yet. They need to earn that respect back
@@kelgirl99 true. Though in-universe it would be more advisable to shoot down comments(with grace! Diplomacy requires grace 79% of the time) like that because there's a difference between passive aggressive undermining in private and undermining in public with witnesses.after all, Sansa is Holding Court, in her Home, and allowing this shit during a public event with lots of lords witnessing this is a Horrible Mistep at best, regardless of whether you're new in power or not.
@blor3664 oh yeah, everyone else does die. Sansa too, should also be at risk and facing consequences for letting this shit stand.
Hate how Arya acts in this scene. You would think that based on all she has been through she would understand Sansa more. Why is Cersei on her kill list if she thinks Sansa was living it up in the castle.
Arya was trained by assassin the only thing she knows is death and revenge, so how would she possibly understand Sansa I’m this scene.
And Cersei was on her list as extension to Joffrey, she stood on the podium where here father was killed so to Arya she may as well have played part in it.
Arya is an amazing fighter but she isn’t very bright
She's bright. She's not a *diplomat*. She cares more about family than the bigger picture. Politics and strategy are just as important as the willingness to destroy when it comes to war.
@@DarkRubberDucky She’s not dumb but there isn’t a single instance in the show that depicts her as more intelligent than the average joe. She isn’t bright.
@@samuelking4723 No? There is not? There's so many that I can't even think of a parricular one. Arya is clever, but not a skilled politician.
@@adrianavargova “There’s so many that I can’t think of a particular one” lmfao. I’ll cut you some slack because it can be hard to remember specific examples like this but unless you can think of anything this is just two assholes arguing over nothing in a comment section without any substance
i was very disappointed that instead of staying united in some way, the girls started drifting and even had a few antagonizing scenes. sansa never had those with jon or bran. the same with arya never having those with her brothers. and even when you bring up that the girls never really got along well from before, sansa didn’t get along with jon either before. seems very sketchy they decided to give the sisters more emotionally distant and trying to establish whose more dominant in the scene
I think it wasnthe writers trying to make the Littlefinger moment more "Whaaaat!" 🤔
So....bad writing again.
Arya and Sansa more than just "didn't get along." They hated each other. Sansa stuck up for Joffrey after he bullied Arya and had her friend murdered. Then Sansa's direwolf had its head chopped off in place of Arya's who had run off. Arya's last memory of Sansa was her standing next to Joffrey as he gave the order to cut off her father's head. After all that, it would make zero sense for them to be all buddy buddy without working through their issues.
@@cryptaku3404 Sansa didn't exactly stand up for Joffrey, she was a child and torn as to whether to tell the truth and call the Prince a liar to the king's face (something that has consequences, even she knew that at her age), or lie and say her sister was the liar. Ultimately she said she didn't know, she didn't see, she tried to stay out of the fight how she could when commanded to speak to the king.
For the rest of it though I 100% agree, they were never going to be friendly until they worked through their issues.
Sansa was mean to Jon but ultimately ignored him for the most part, they weren't around each other all that much, Sansa being a trueborn daughter and Jon being a bastard son they weren't constantly in the same room as each other growing up.
Sansa and Arya on the other hand, both trueborn daughters, were taught many of the same things, almost always together throughout the day, and they didn't get along. Being constantly in the presence of someone you don't get along with growing up isn't conducive to being all buddy buddy after years of separation either.
I blame the writers for those scenes. I’ve yet to read the books, but i hope there are some more common sense things in there.
I think it was intended to imply that at some point, the girls were onto Baelish’s scheming, and began staging their infighting to keep him in the dark. It just wasn’t made clear exactly when they put their plan into action.
Meaningless conversation going on
I like both of their views so...!
Arya dint really know what her sister went through. Din't understand her never did actually untill at the very end ...she always had her gurd up and never trusted her....
Arya why are you being a psychopath
She’s an assassin what do you expect?
You can be a killer without being a pycho
@@blackknight-oz8bi you can also be psycho cause you’re a killer
No that's not the point she has pain but hasn't broken only broken people with nothing can become pychos she still has friends even tho they dying and jon
Sansa foi muito melhor do que Ária nesse momento.
Ária falar sobre cortar cabeças está muito mais para agir como Cersei do que como uma pessoa que odeia Cersei exatamente por ela agir assim, pois Cersei faria isso, como fez ao explodir o cepitão com todos seus inimigos daquele momento dentro dele.
Sansa foi muito mais na linha de Jon Snow, Jon jamais faria o que Ária estava sugerindo o que Sansa fizesse.
I mean they've both got good points. Sansa shouldn't just let them shit talk jon but arya shouldn't just kill everyone.
I like how much Sansa has grown and adapted a wider frame of mind and a longitudinal considerations for her decisions. From a a naive, helpless girl she evolved into a key player who can factor different variables out and consider multiple approaches along with the possible repercussions of her moves.
Despite both sisters dealing with situationism throughout the seasons, Arya’s mental dimensions was static. She had become good at killing, but that’s all there was to her. Her ontology had no evolution. Pretty much, Arya is a renegade who’s good at killing but can be killed just as well. Sansa knew how to secure forces and maintain upkeep. Arya is like a riderless dragon or the Mountain, she does her job well but she eill get herself in shit situations without proper direction.
because of her john lose hia army, he did not inform john about her plan about vales
Why y’all acting like Sansa isn’t Sansa? As if she isn’t power hungry or dangerous? She’s so diplomatic but yet she’s also trying to depose her allies. Yeah she cares about her family, but she wants power, maybe even at the detriment to her family. How often did this chick speak out when Jon was talking? How many times has she blatantly disrespected him as king of the north?
She wanted the power for herself.
EVERYONE on the show wants power, especially Daenerys and Cersei, but Sansa is the only one? If Sansa had wanted power or the crown, she would have gotten it when they offered it to her in season 7. Sansa already has power. She is one of the most powerful women in Westeros.
@@erys8957 Daenerys & cersei make it clear time & time again that they need power so ofc we aren't surprised. this girl on the other hand acts like she doesn't & she as if she cares about her family but behind anyone can see she's just as power hungry.
@@angelyuqi6709 Yes of course, too bad Sansa is only 12 years old and it is instilled in her from the very beginning that she has to get married and have children. If you have read the books or watched the show well, you know very well that Sansa never really thinks about power and becoming Queen, but about getting married and having children, becoming queen is just a side effect of marrying Joffrey. I would not say the same about Dany and Cersei. She is offered the crown in season 7, if you remember, Jon is a bastard, she could have taken it from him at any time. But of course you can think whatever you want ✌️
As much I dislike Sansa but I liked this side of her.. the mature and voice of reason side.
Arya was just awful at this point.
Both*
Sansa was right . but she could've defended her brother
She did. It's why she insisted they keep their faith in Jon and she didn't jump at the opportunity to take over for him when Lord Glover suggested it.
She continued to take up for Jon, though he increasingly behaved like an idiot.
@@janellejulianajoyshe undermined Jon’s authority every chance she got.
Why do they wear the chain collar?
It's all smoke and mirrors for these two right?
Yes they faked all these fights to k1ll little finger
@@neville2308 and it makes no sense 💀
@@neville2308 They Didn't fake Jack, Sansa was going after Arya after that lil talk with Little Finger, she just Consulted Bran FIRST who give her far more than she ever expected, that was when she realised she was being Pitted against Arya with LF manipulation, and he was the course of more problems than they ever realise.
@@TwiceStruck
Yes, and that is when Arya and Sansa started faking their arguments, because they knew what Little Finger was up to, and that he was secretly spying on them as well. As a result, he thought he was getting away with yet another of his scheming plans to pit the sisters against each other, meanwhile they were just playing Baelish, until the day of his surprise trial.
@@neville2308 it's been confirmed all of there fight was real in s7, Confirmed by Scripts Sansa WAS gonna execute Ayra but went to Bran first (OFFSCREEN) and told her everything.
One understands the game, the other is Just a sad ignorant with a sword
Exactly 💯
Arya didn’t grow up around two faced nobles who could teach her how to lead, she grew up with death and a desire for revenge. She’s not just a “sad ignorant girl with a sword” she’s an assassin who was taught to kill to get what she needed. Of course she wouldn’t be good at politics. And Sansa didn’t understand the game either. She just stole all the bad personality traits of people who DID know how to play.
"We"
Arya's right. Sansa started all the problems because she's always thought herself better than everyone. She lied for and defended Joffrey because she wanted to be a princess. Everything that followed she brought on them and herself. I would've preferred Danaerys lived and Sansa died. What did Sansa contribute without causing problems for others?
Sansa contributed Jack sht. She spent most of the show being rescued. Saved from the Lannisters by Littlefinger, then saved again by him from Lysa, then it was Theon saving her from Myranda and the Boltons, then it was Brienne and Pod, then God knows who while she was in the crypt during the long night. She was annoying and useless the entire show. No one would care for her if her last name wasn't Stark
I'm sorry but when has Sansa ever believed herself to be better than everyone? 😂😂😂 Daenerys burned down an entire city, I think that alone is a bigger problem than the 'problems Sansa caused'. Besides Daenerys did what she had to do, if she hadn't helped the North she would have been a huge hypocrite.
@@thesella well she's not a warrior and back then she doesn't have an army she was living with her enemies by herself also danaerys would be like sansa if she doesn't have dragons
@Tota Toha she didn't have to be a warrior to stand up for herself. Even a pregnant Dany stood up to Viserys when he smacked her around. Sansa couldn't even do that to her aunt Lysa and she was the weakest of the bunch that tormented her
@Thesella she threatened to kill her and wasn't she like 14
Never been a fan of the cowardly Sonsa.
Every time I see a scene with Arya and Sansa, I think of this. Sansa should've turned into the cold-blooded warrior, and Arya should've turned ex warrior into a queen/politician. After everything Sansa went through, it just never feels right to me how 'normal' she is. And to me, Arya's journey would've made her a great leader. She could politic but make threats and back them up personally.
I never liked Sansa. Wanted her to die
Sansa has always been the evil stark
Strong women in media suck, not because they're strong like arya, but because they can never truly be weak and wrong like the writers done with salsa
Arya is so cute, but I bet she could gut your butt quick as a flash too. I bet some day SHE will have the crown.
Terrible dialogue. And Arya is coming off like an annoying twat. Inconsistent character writing. Like a poor version of Cersei and Joffrey talking about bending the north to their knees.
And you've wrote what ? When was your last film ? Damn ,just enjoy the show or go watch Alice in Wonderland.
@@apachec5589 If you ever go to a restaurant and the food happen to be terrible, remember: By your own logic you'll have no right to complain, unless you're a chef. If you're not, just go eat Subway or something.
@@apachec5589 You absolutely have the right to your opinion, which is fair. But I'm also allowed to criticize how they destroyed such a great series after I spent good money and time subscribing to HBO only for this show. I suppose the real problem is that I cared too much for the show and it's characters.... 😭
You’re an idi0t and never watched the show, clearly. This “terrible dialogue” is done so on purpose make them look bad and make you mad and confused and it is a RUSE to try and execute little finger and it worked and it was a great twist and gotcha moment on the show. It’s not inconsistent. In the end they tell everyone hey this was a fake thing we did this and pretended we hate each other to catch little finger. He tried to turn their mom and aunt against each other this same way so it was poetic and ironic and GOOD WRITING.
Wasn't this when Sansa and Arya were fake fighting so Baelish would believe his ploy succeeded?
Man I really get annoyed with Sansa every second of her being onscreen
In the beginning I did too from her naive stupidity and looking at the world through rose colored glasses. But I started like then love her character progression. In the show she is the only Stark's ending I rooted for and wished since she left the Vale to be the ruler of the North. Here's to the Queen in the North!
I wish I could be sorry for what sansa went through, but am not.
This is why Arya will always be better than Sansa
Sansa is right here tho.
Lol, sure, cut off the Lords’ heads over petty insults. Sure worked out for Robb when he cut off Karstark’s head, and his offense was worse than insults
She’ll always be better because She’s dumber?
Psycho arya annoyed me sooo much
Sansa is a curse to the Starks sorry not sorry 🤭
man the writing here was ASS
Why didn’t Sansa tell Jon about the Knights of the Vale ? Because she wanted to be queen !
Because she originally told Littlefinger to f*** off.
Because she did not want to ask Littlefinger for help and because then she was not even sure of their arrival. If she had told him, Jon would not have accepted Littlefinger's help.
Sansa is the worst stark. She deserved joffrey.
Bull crap writing
Por supuesto, escuchar el jingle de "Gameboy Advance SP girls edition" me ha dado flashbacks de guerra.
Nada, me vuelvo a la residencia de ancianos.👵