@@beautifuldayzee5942 Hello Beautiful Dayzee. I have a question that I cannot find the answer to. Can parental alienation manifest itself later in life when the children are grown up? I guess it might be called delayed onset parental alienation. I always thought I had a good relationship with my daughters when they were kids, but now they have had their own children (my grandchildren), and a couple of years ago they rejected me completely 'out of the blue'. Whenever this topic is discussed it's always about parental alienation while the children are still young and in the custody of the alienating parent. I've always known their mother for years very cunningly would cast negative words, tone of voice and body language against me for leaving her over 30 years ago. I also know I'm always being run down behind my back, and that the siblings then most likely reinforce the negative messaging between themselves in the family group. It breaks my heart that at 65, I'm now estranged from my daughters and I cannot have a happy relationship with them or my grandchildren. On the rare occasions I've tried to discuss any of these issues I'm just invalidated and told I'm dredging up the past. And it's not like I harp on it. In fact I'd prefer to look forward not back. But, how can you solve a relationship problem without discussing it? I think I'll go to my grave with only the beautiful memories we had together when they were kids. How can I understand this better? Do you know where I can find out more about this phenomena? Thanks, I look forward to your reply.
It’s awful, my father went to the extreme with this and took me/ kept me from my mother for over 10 years unless we were in court, badmouthed her, screamed at me if I said I missed her, told me so many stories I voluntarily started being mean to her myself, made me get information from her, told me what to say in court, etc. She passed away five months ago, at only 41. But I stopped talking to my father and got to form sort of a relationship with her for three years. I’ll never get that time back and I miss her so very much I can’t stand it. I will never do this to my children
Check out Rebecca Zung's information on her YT, it's the best I've found on YT. Patience, sticking to scheduled visits/time with child, hiring a attorney who is familiar with parental alienation if you need one, & therapy is a absolute must, this is child abuse, the child is basically being treated as if they were in a cult with astounding similarities, former victims of parental alienation claim it was like being in a cult & the techniques are the same. I'm in this situation, & I'm reading the Ellipsis Manuel, how to use hypnosis & NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming) without the person knowing. It's written by one of the top hypnotists in the world, & taken from the military, released for the first time. Her brain needs re-wiring, the child is in very bad shape, as her Mom has messed her up in too many ways to count. I'm so sorry you are going through this. Feel free to ask me any questions, I've researched the heck out of this & I'm also a therapist (though not for children). Much Love
Interesting video Dr. Grande My mom didn't tell me who my real dad was until I was 26. This is similar to parental alienation because it seems her goal was the same- no relationship or coparenting.
I’m a retired children’s mental health nurse (and paediatric nurse). This reminds me of a family I met when I was working. Their two daughters were referred to our service with anxiety issues. They were seen and assessed as being suitable for CBT and one of our clinical psychologists treated both girls, but before she could complete their treatment the psychologist left our service. The girls were handed over to a trainee social worker who was in the team for 6 months. When she moved on the girls were handed over to me because I was finishing my CBT training. I read the files. I was confused because according to the original psychologist’s comments, the treatment was in the final stages when they were handed over to the trainee. They were supposed to have had 3 further sessions and then be discharged. The anxiety was considered to be mild with slight elements of OCD in both girls. And yet according to the trainee’s notes, their anxiety and OCD had deteriorated to a severe level. I also noted that the parents were in the middle of an acrimonious divorce and that they had not been able to engage with the court mediation service. I met the girls and the mother and father (separately). I re-assessed the anxiety and OCD, and I re-established the CBT. Both girls responded beautifully. I completed the treatment and it was when I began to discuss how we were moving towards discharging the girls that I was subjected to a high level of hostility from the mother, claiming that both daughters had severely relapsed. She wrote a complaint, insisting that the girls could not be discharged because their mental health problems were being caused by the father. I received a similar complaint from the father but he stated it was the mother’s mental instability as being the cause of their daughters’ mental health problems, and he too thought that his daughters were suffering with ‘severe’ mental health problems. It was at this point that I received a request from the courts for a report into the girls mental health problems. This is how I handled this. I met with each parent separately and obtained detailed and specific information on what they were observing in their daughters that told them their symptoms were severe. Neither could give me ANYTHING that supported their claims, in fact I took the opportunity to do some health education about hand washing and infection control. E.g, the mother made one claim about her daughters excessive hand washing because neither of the girls could refrain from washing their hands after coming into the home from the stables where they’d been mucking out and grooming the horses! The paediatric nurse in me kicked in and I did a little bit of hygiene education! There were no untoward hand washing issues or other mental health problems after that because each claim could be explained with common sense. It was at this point that each of them unburdened themselves of their marital difficulties and how each believed the other to be unfit to have custody of the girls. This was the crux of the complaint and I realised I was now in the mediation arena, and needed to be very clear with my professional boundaries. So I formulated a plan that went like this. I said I would refer them back to the court mediation services because it was clear that mediation was needed in this situation. I said that the girls treatment would end as per the original care plan that both parents had consented to, as had the girls, and that I was required to write a report to the courts that would explain the referral, the treatment and the outcome. Both parents, separately, were frustrated with me and made a second complaint, which was rejected by my senior managers who wrote back to the parents, advising them to return to the court mediation services and allow me to finish the treatment. In the following few week, one of the girls disclosed how she felt about the divorce, about how her mother would openly berate their father before they visited him, and how their father kept pumping them for information about what the mother was doing and about what a terrible mother she was. This left me in the position of having to make a child protection referral. I spoke with both parents about this and stated that I would have to include this information in my report to the courts. By the time that I wrote my report, I felt that the girl’s mental health problems were entirely the creation of the parents inability to resolve their divorce amicably and that the girls were simply pawns in their parents marital games. There were indicators of fabricated illness by proxy which I also put in the report and referred to social services child protection. The girls completed their treatment with our mental health service and then were handed over to child protection. It was only at this point that they backed off and calmed down. Parental alienation is a serious problem for children and their self esteem, their confidence and their mental health, and as such I view in the same way as Fabricated Illness by Proxy, i.e, it is first and foremost a child protection issue.
I appreciate reading your post was very helpful..Thank You for your time to write it all out..I agree with your analysis is exactly right in my opinion too.
This is to Ruth Jones: The frustrating thing is you do not understand PA at all. Most of the time one parent is the alienater and the other parent is desperately trying to get the courts to understand what is going on. You are acting like these parents just “couldn’t get along.” That devalues the alienated parent further, after what may have been years of abuse from the other parent.
I found this video especially interesting. Early in my working career I worked for a divorce lawyer for five years as a legal secretary. Sadly, as you said parental alienation was quite the norm in my boss's practice. It was a real fight to get these clients to stop using the children as weapons against each other, as the children lost every time. Thanks for taking the time to do your videos. Cheers!
If I could offer an alternative take...The problem is the court system has way too many false positive identifications of parental alienation...That is not to say that parents cannot participate in alienating behaviors, which obviously should be discouraged assuming there is not abuse going on. But there is a major gender bias in how it is actually wielded in court. Most cases where it is successfully invoked, it is essentially a "get out of jail free" card for abusive fathers to discredit legitimate claims of abuse from a protective mother. Studies more or less back this up: Fathers invoking PA against a mother makes them 2 to 6 times as likely to win their case, but the same effect is not observed when mothers invoke it against a father. This outcome is unaltered EVEN IF the father already has a proven history of spousal violence! Complete madness. CPS data shows that even in the context of contentious custody disputes, false claims of abuse are no more common than in the general population. False abuse allegations represent something like 2-6% of cases, so by the numbers if someone is accusing the other party of abuse it is almost certainly a legitimate claim, even if it is later "unsubstantiated" by CPS(that is a whole other can of worms, CPS's criteria for substantiating an abuse claim is so ludicrous, the child has to essentially already be halfway dead- broken bones, repeated trips to the hospital, etc.) . It's also worth noting that in most cases the court does not draw a distinction between "deliberately false" and "unsubstantiated" claims even though they are not at all the same thing. This almost always helps the abuser and hurts the victim in a court setting. You also have to consider the fact that something like 90% of custody disputes are solved outside of court....So if the case has made it all the way to court, that should immediately raise a red flag that this is not simply a case of 2 normal people who are simply in a "high conflict" case, especially if there are claims of abuse. Until good evidence is presented showing otherwise, there should immediately be a presumption that there is an abusive, or coercive dynamic at play. ESPECIALLY if the party being accused of abuse has way more money than the accusing party (they can coercively use the court system and litigation to bleed the victim dry). Yet, judges and parenting coordinators don't really look beyond the surface level to see whether the child actually has a legitimate reason to reject one parent over the other(such as in abuse cases). They usually don't interview the child, or even the child's extended family. They don't look at how the child's dynamic is with each respective parent either. Furthermore, consider this thought experiment: If a child has a good relationship with 1 parent, and the other parent attempts to "alienate" or talk badly about that parent with no good reason...the far more likely outcome is that the child will rebel or reject the "alienating" narrative. Not be blindly brainwashed by the parent attempting to do the alienation. Children instinctually want to keep their family together and do not want to hear one parent badmouthing the other, especially if there really is no good reason...On the other hand, if a child IS rejecting a parent we should take that very seriously and assume that there is a good reason for this, and that it is not simply due to brainwashing by an "alienating" parent. Speaking to that point further, we must take into account the cognitive ability required for a child to not only remember a complex web of lies fed to them by a coaching parent, but being able to repeat it accurately over and over. Alternatively, it does not take much cognitive effort for a child to recall actual abuse that occurred to them. We know that traumatic events have a way of being seared into memory, so if a child makes detailed disclosures we should almost never assume that the story has been fed to them by a "coaching" parent. In fact, studies show that children tend to DOWNPLAY the abuse that was done to them, not over exaggerate or hyperbolize it as so many judges and lawyers seem to think. If anything, when a child discloses we should assume the abuse they suffered was WORSE than what they are reporting. Children are malleable but at the end of the day they are still individuals who, even at a very young age, intuitively understand when something is being done to them that is bad or good. If children were so easily brainwashed then parents wouldn't ever have issues getting them to go to bed on time, or eat their vegetables...But yet, we are somehow supposed to believe that a child rejecting a parent is purely due to the seemingly omnipotent brainwashing effect of an "alienating" parent. Complete nonsense. The PA argument simply allows actual abusers to turn the tables on their victims in court
@@ultimate8550 You're right. The entire court system needs to be redone (especially father's rights) but you have also given some great ideas how we might go about it. Sadly, we're only 2 people.
I remember my dad lying about my mom, saying, “she’s the crazy one.” “It’s nice get out of the house to get away from her.” And other horrible things like that. Unfortunately, my parents are still together and I wish my parents would split up. My mom can meet someone more compassionate, patient, understanding and empathic than my “dad”. But, like my therapist said, I need to stay in my lane.
Tell her or write her a note (a real paper one) & tell her that. My son has gone through something similar (I’m the targeted Mum) with my ex. I’m sure it wld hve helped him wth some of the issues that he’s now having as a result of this. And yes, it can happen in intact families as well, my Mum did it with me against my Father, then got really revengeful when I worked it out & confronted her. Get help wth counselling, it makes a big difference.
If staying in your lane means driving with a huge cautionary state of mind and developing an awareness of assessing parental behaviour just to keep peace, I’d be looking for new roads to travel! Take care of you first...I suggest to try other therapist if it’s within your capacity or do more research into narcissism and parental alienation.
If you lie about a fire in a movie theater you go to jail. If you lie in domestic court, about the parent being a drug addled alcoholic who is abusive to everyone (clearly showing one parent cares more about their ego & lies then the well being of their kids)..you get whatever you want...no consequences. This is and has always been child abuse.
No actually if you claim fire in a movie theater you don't go to jail. I don't know why people think that. You can go to any crowded movie theater and go fire fire fire fire and you're not going to go to jail for that. Not in Canada. Not in the United States and not in the UK. Not in France not in Germany, not Switzerland. That's not true. Also really great studies done by a lot of really reputable institutions on parental alienation being used as defense in court. And 92% of the time It is used in court. It is used by the abusive parent saying that the non-abuse apparent is using parental alienation against them. Meaning that the child claims of abuse are not believed. In fact, in the states they have reunification camps that are just the brand new version of conversion therapy camps. They're horrendous and there child abuse. Also, any doctor worth their saw who treats a child who has supper not parental alienation because nobody even agrees if that exists, but coercive control from a parent. Would not force reunification. Because that is further traumatizing the child. My abusive father tried this with me. I know what I'm talking about. I've seen children be subjugated to this stupid claim that people don't f****** understand.
The problem is is it's really hard to prove that it's parental alienation and not actually an abusive parent. That's why when research is done and followed up on these cases 92% of the time, it was the abuse of parents using it as an excuse to excuse their abusive behavior towards the child and blame the other parent. The lack of understanding is just amazing.
@@LLandS18 not hard at all, it is after all a court. Words are suppose to matter & there be accountability. In my case, the ex not only was clinically diagnosed cluster b, be treated for cluster b, spoke openly to many including the court her goals of never allowing the kids to know me, and I was the unemployed primary care giver of the kids. The problem is a county government that faces zero legal accountability for any of their actions, removed my kids because of a picture of an 1891 winchester hanging on the wall, held kids hostage to demand evidence (clean toe nails, finger nails urine), the court awarded me spousal support, but rather than reuniting me with the kids, stripped me of my attorney, reversed the spousal support, made up an income, and ordered me to pay....the crimes simply kee0 going.
@@JimKJeffries It's very very hard. Because overwhelmingly the people who use this defense are the abuse of parent. And the behavior of a child that's being parentally alienated or a child that's being physically sexually and emotionally. Abused is very similar. And a lot of times they'll have the anger at the parent who isn't abusing them.
Wow! You're speaking of my charge again. No wonder she has BPD. Her parents were both like this. Amazing things you're bringing to light doctor. Thank you! 👍🌹
Everyone on my dad's side of the family accused my mother of doing this to me, and that's why I don't have a good relationship with my dad. My mom never spoke ill of my father, but I disliked a lot of his behavior. He was so misogynistic. He was physically abusive to my mother. He kept manipulating high school girls to sleep with him. My mom was 15 when she started dating him while he was in his 30's. He went years with no contact, and the first thing he said when he saw me was that he'd love me a lot more if I weighed less. I take care of him now because he has stage 4 brain cancer, and that's only because my mom worries about him. She's a lot more forgiving than I am.
This is why parental alienation is tricky. Cause in family court, they can potentially accuse your mom of parental alienation. My ex physically abused me, never developed a relationship with our infant son and would do things like not help out with caring for the baby at all, prevent me from breastfeeding the baby and make me listen to the baby crying to be comforted and fed. I had to leave and ended up filing and getting a restraining order against him for domestic abuse. He has basically abandoned his son and has had zero contact with him since the trial ended. Sometimes abuse allegations are real. Sometimes kids do not bond with a parent if they do not feel safe. Sometimes mothers actually do try to protect their children. Family courts be very careful in evaluating these accusations because they may end up hurting the children they are trying to protect. Just ask the kids that were allowed visitations in domestic abuse cases that were killed by their fathers.
My 3 children were alienated from me after divorce by their malignant narcissist dad and his new wife. Two years after the separation and just after his remarriage with his mistress he started abduct our sons from school and I was searching for them like crazy everywhere. He brought them mobile phones and called them so many times every day, forcing them to spy on me, to tell him everything that was going on in my house. He told them that I was an awful mother, they must not obey me and they should try to run away from my home in every occasion. He pressurised them daily incessantly, when they obeyed him, they were loved and rewarded by their dad, if not they weren't. This narcissist kidnapping my children or forcing them to run away almost every week for 2 years made me really sick, I had heart arrhythmia. I asked for help from Justice. But the Judge decided to give the custody of my two 12 and 11 years old sons to their dad because my sons were behaving horribly with me, not obeying, running away, falsely reporting me to the police following the direct orders of their narcissistic revengeful dad. I was totally heartbroken!!! I was left with my third son of 4 years who cried horribly and rejected me violently every time he saw his father, but when he was alone with me he was loving and cuddling to me. At 4 years old, my poor baby replied to my question of why he doesn't say to his father that he loves his mother too (all three of my sons were forced to reject me and call their stepmother "mommy"), "Mommy, if I say to my father that I love you, he will never take me to his home again!". My poor little son already understood the consequences if he doesn't obey the orders of his father. My 3 children were highly congratulated, rewarded with toys, pocket money, McDonald's lunches, kompyuter, etc. for rejecting me, for showing love and calling mommy to their stepmother. And horribly enough, they were denied love, gifts, etc if they didn't reject me enough. They stopped saying me hello when seeing me outside, they were so afraid of physically touching me when their father was near and watching. I could kiss them only when they were alone with me in my apartment. My older 2 sons stayed with their father for years until I could take back their custody. During those 4 years every 2 weeks, when it was my turn to take them to my home, the narcissist didn't let them go without forcing me waiting many hours at his door. I suffered narcissistic abuse for 9 years of marriage, and 8 years after the divorce too because he used our children like a true weapon to continue to hurt me as usual. Now my children live with me, but we are all traumatized, especially me, I have a deep trauma that I am trying to overcome daily. My religion saved me and guided me throughout years. I am sure this evil narcissist cannot escape the consequences of his acts, I understand perfectly why Allah created the Hellfire, and said in his holy Book Quran that if God shows mercy and take some people out of the Hell, these people would again go back to their ancient sins, they would never sincerely repent and change themselves. I understood that eternal Hellfire is for narcissistic people who will never change and deserve the punishment for what they did to other people.
Or when narcissists decide to "cut all contact from you" and cut you off from their love because you aren't doing what they want and aren't allowing yourself to be easily controlled by them, that can force some narcisstic parents to alienate their children for sure. My parents did that to me just because I chose to get therapy for their abuse (even though they told me to get therapy all the time) when I actually did and started listening to the advice of their therapist, they were pissed! My mom especially behaves in this way. It hurts a lot but I'm hanging in there and trauma therapy is helping a ton.
I'm also going thru this. In my case, it has gone so far that my daughter is seeing a counselor who claims she is traumatized bc of me. The counselor sent a request to the court to temporarily suspend my visitation rights, this was over 4 years ago. I've had no contact with her at all in over 4 years and I have filed for visitation 6 times. I usually go to court to plead my case about every 3-4 months. I know she's being alienated from me, I think everyone knows, the judge, the guardian ad lidem, everyone involved in my case knows it but nobody is taking my concerns seriously...
P.A.S. In respect of one parent using the child against the other in effect “weaponising” the child against. The trouble with PAS is it was poorly used by “experts” in legal cases. Should it be classified as a thing? No it should not it should be called by a more appropriate title “Child Abuse”👍
@George V you must know perfectly well what real people are like, male or female. Who taught you about gender stereotypes and why did you buy into it, why don't you question that a little more?
This video provides a huge amount of valuable info on parental alienation. It amazes me the way Dr. Grande packs so much cogent material into a 13 minute video. Thanks for doing all the hard work to make this presentation possible.
Parental alienation is a very real problem that can bring drastic emotional harm to all children involved 🥺 Personally, my father was the one attempting to break my positive relationship with my mom, but I do understand that both parents can engage is behavior at the same time as well. Very sad...
I absolutely love how your videos are just so consistently well-researched, informative and entertaining all at once. Top grade content, Dr.Grande! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, knowledge and expertise with us.
My ex wife was a super severe level...making up accusations of child abuse by causing a bruise on our child, taking a picture and blaming me for child abuse...or telling the kids that i didnt wantbto be their father, i threw away all their toys, i dont pay child support to help with food, etc...luckily, after a 4 year battle i got guardianship of my kids and raised them the right way....
Thank you !!! I recently heard a podcast featuring one of these professionals who claimed that parental alienation does not exist. As a child of divorce in 1970 I can ASSURE YOU it bloody does. Because I empathized more with my father against the blistering attacks of my mother, I was constantly belittled and could never do anything right ,(in her eyes), from that time forward. It still mildly effects me today. Sadly some doctors , (esp. mental health professionals ) change their outlooks about as quick as the seasonal fashions saying " We don't do that anymore." The excuse for all misbehavior and bad diagnosis. I respond... "Do you do it any less???" I don't always respond but I always appreciate your show. Thank you again!😆
Thank you, Dr. Grande. I can tell you from personal experience that Parental Alienation is real. It is heartbreaking beyond anything that I have ever experienced. I believe that PA is child abuse. The alienating ex spouse is so evil and intent on hurting the other parent, that they will do anything to get back at them. It is very difficult to prove in court and our judicial systems are not equipped to handle these types of problems. My child has been brain washed and may never understand. Unless the alienated parent is truly neglectful or abusive, children need both parents in their lives.
The worst part is for me, that I’ll always despise my mom, despite her never even talking about my father. He uses this ^ explanation all the time - that my mother’s the one who made me refuse to go see him every other weekend at times. Truth is as a kid I just couldn’t take the idea of having to listen to all his sick stories about my mom on the way to his house. I still hate my mom more than my father tho, pretty insane. Also it is good that this isn’t used in court. The oppositional behavior in the child you described with regards to the victim-parent, is behavior I personally exhibited with both my parents at different times. Catch it at the wrong time & you might lock up an innocent parent.
Idk man - one of the greatest tragedies of Parental Alienation, is that even when many of these alienated children eventually come to the horrible realisation that they've been brainwashed by the alienating parent to falsely believe that their other parent is 'this bad thing' or 'that bad thing', has 'done terrible things to the alienating parent', is a 'horrible human being', etc.... that even after that, for many of these children those hostile feelings towards the non-alienating parent have become so ingrained that they CANNOT CHANGE THEM. Turning a child against a 'normal range' parent is one of the most horrific types of abuse that one can inflict on a child - we are all one half our mother, and one half our father..... and when we are turned against one of our parents, and taught to hate them, we are in effect turning against and hating one half of ourselves. But perhaps worst of all, is that children who have been turned against one of their parents in this way by their other parent have been denied one of the most precious gifts of life: the experience of 'childhood innocence'. This is truly truly tragic.... P.S. Parents who alienate their children from the children's other parent almost ALWAYS have a 'Cluster B' personality disorder, usually either Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) or Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). And an alienating father is more likely to have NPD than to have BPD, and an alienating mother is more likely to have BPD than to have NPD. This has significance, because NPD is considered to be pretty much untreatable. But BPD is TREATABLE. And so, if the alienating parent has BPD, at least it's possible for that parent to get treatment/therapy to stop that parent's alienating behaviors. The same is not usually possible in the case of NPD parents.
Wait, your father was the toxic parent, your mother took you away from him for your protection, yet you hate her over him - sounds like Stockholm syndrome to me. Your mother deserves better..
My heart breaks for you and your mum 💔 she didn't talk about him because she loves you and doesn't want to hurt you anymore. It's so hard for me as a mother to think that even if my daughter wakes up to the truth one day that it won't heal our relationship because the hate has been that deeply ingrained. I pray that one day you will feel that bond with her that you had before that happened and you can both heal.
This is really interesting. I didn’t experience this, but have empathy for people that did (or are.) My parents stuck together in their dysfunctional codependent marriage and were ‘a real solid team’ when it came to targeting their children. (Criticism and humiliation, and worse) One...the matriarchal ‘vulnerable covert’ narcissist...the other the flying agent enabler. The facilitator. They are equally as bad. Both damaging and abusive. I’m isolated and alone but healing. And love to anyone healing from PAS. ❤️ Thanks Dr. Grande. 👍🇬🇧
This is exactly the set up that I grew up in and went on after I left home, in fact u til recently when at the age of 57 I finally went no contact. They did so much damage and continued to do so.
Yvonukon wow. It’s never too late to have peace of mind and self love. It’s been a battle all my life. Your life has been highjacked the way mine was. So now live true to yourself, it’s not easy I know. The healing is a process and doesn’t happen overnight. We can’t suddenly switch off to a life time of abuse and dysfunction. I’ve accepted it may take till I’m dead to feel true peace. Sorry if that sounds negative, it’s not. It’s realistic. And that’s the sadness. The good/amazing/positive is...many people go to the grave wounded and confused. Their WHOLE life robbed...YOU WON’T. Be proud you’ve made the conscious decision to say NO to this relentless repetition that you didn’t choose for yourself. TOXIC. You were bullied and conditioned,I know I was. There is a voice inside you that has been silenced for so long...but you listened to it. Brilliant! That’s your soul and authentic self that’s been suffocated for so long. Hear it every day! 😊 your vibration will lift once you forgive yourself and accept that it was not your fault. It shows real strength to have tolerated what you have. We can’t change the past, only the present moment and our future. It’s a daily struggle for me and a mental battle so I understand. I survived a serious suicide attempt, not a cry for help. I was systematically broken down to nothing. But ‘nothing’ somehow is still living and breathing and I’m now something. A good something 😊 yes messed up...damaged...but finally getting pleasure from the little things in life I had dissociated from, since a child to survive. (So very disconnected for 43 years) but ultimately I have freedom (and that is scary when you’ve been controlled and ‘Stockholm Syndromed’ all your life) but it’s an incredible feeling you cannot quantify. 🥰🌈 you are a LION! Don’t forget that! You are your own leader. Never doubt yourself and NEVER go back. Never. You have left that cage FOREVER! Courage is an understatement. I don’t know you but I’d give you the biggest high five if I could! 💪 Take care and be happy. ❤️🇬🇧
Kevin Hornbuckle god bless you yes. Thank you for asking. It’s isn’t so black and white as I’ve been targeted and I’m the black sheep defector. I’m surrounded by my siblings that are flying agents. It’s hard, and lonely. But I was living someone else’s dysfunctional life. Pleasing an insatiable covert malignant gaslighting narcissist. It’s over. Now I’m loving my own. I feel like a child that’s just been born. Sounds weird but I’m trying to ‘unlearn’ all the negative conditioning which became my entrenched self sabotaging warped belief system. I live hour by hour. My mind is programmed to tell me I’m a waste of space and a failure. I’m not. I’ve realised that’s what the narc believes of herself so PROJECTS it onto her produce: her children. It’s very sad really, and I tried so hard to be compassionate and accommodating. But no. This individual takes pleasure in another’s pain and it has become her hobby in life. I was a pawn in this game. But game over for me. I’ve suffered enough. My father (enabler) went to an early grave. It was devastating. But he married her, I didn’t. It was not my choice. Now I have choices and I choose peace and safety. Life is too short! We can only save ourselves. When it gets to ‘live or die’ it gets easier to come to terms with. I’ll never see them again and I’m changing my name by deedpole. Some women flee and abusive intimate relationship.... I’m fleeing something worse. One time I had murderous vengeful thoughts, more out of trying to protect my brother. But then the narc would win: locked in another cage. The best revenge/justice is to break free and find some level of peace. 😊 I love Dr.Grande’s channel ❤️🇬🇧
Me,too. My mother, the Magnificent Narcissist and my Father, the Enabler. This has been a lifelong struggle for me and my Mother is mad at me and my Father told me that if she doesn’t want me in her life, that he doesn’t either. She’s accusing me of things that did not happen, but she’s also accusing my Father of things that did not happen, as well. You think he would understand how awful it feels. No, it doesn’t matter to him, only my Mother’s happiness matters to him. 😢 i used to think that he was the best person around…in the last few years, i am seeing a whole other side of him that i was blindsided by.
First of all, thank you for making this video. It's hard to describe how painful and how devastating this is to parents and children. It's also hard to believe how broken the legal system is and how corrupt judges are. I have spent 7 years trying to have a relationship with my children and have failed. Systematic extreme parental alienation has been ignored by the legal system even when my ex has been found in contempt over a hundred times. My ex is a broken person, she's a product of child abuse and angry narcissistic parents. Ultimately she is to blame but it's hard to hate someone so broken. On the other hand the legal system just wants money and doesn't care if they make more broken children. I will continue to fight for my children until the youngest reaches emancipation. Then I will do whatever is within my grasp to create a relationship with my children. My hope is that some politician reads this and is able to force the courts to use the psychologist and people that are trained at identified such hurtful bad behavior.
That's why I say "I went through my parents' divorce" instead of "my parents had a divorce." It was not a simple incident that changed my lifestyle but rather a process that all of us walked together. Even with extra supports and love from my extended family members, I felt very powerless and lonely during my preteen and teenage years. Unfortunately parents can be very self-involved during divorce.. I'm a mental health care for youth now:). Very rewarding path for me.
This is a typical description of PAS and while it contains some truths the fact that it leaves so much out makes this a dangerous assessment indeed. PAS alway involves one parent that is personality disordered and where they are on the spectrum determines the level of severity of the PA. It does not only involve custody disputes, far from it. A large % of custody disputes involve personality disordered individuals so that is an obvious subset of PA cases. It also does not center around custody but on using the child to destroy the other parent. Part of this destruction includes destroying the children as well. The child(ren) always has some sort of attachment disorder to the alienating parent, so the child is anxious to resolve these attachment issues and will do anything to please this alienating parent. This is profoundly abusive behavior and creates psychopaths of the children. The courts almost always give the children to this abusive parent. This is not difficult to diagnose.
I also want to add it is an absolute mistake to take the “high road” or ignore the situation. It is often impossible to know this is happening as the target parent is kept in the dark, the children are sworn to secrecy etc... but this is way too much for a child to cope with and they must be given tools.
YES, exactly, spot on! Most people commenting here have completely misunderstood the concept of 'Parental Alienation' . That's not surprising though, just think how long it took most of us alienated parents to discover and understand (get our heads around!) that 'concept'. And too, rarely is it mentioned that parental alienation does not only involve custody disputes! Parental Alienation is not a custody issue, it's a cluster b (narcissist and/or borderline) personality disorder and attachment disorder issue
Finally someone that gets it. PA is not about turning the child on the parent. Actually the targeted parent tries to make the child know that they are being victimized. The alienating parent is using the child as a weapon to destroy the targeted parent. I either the people who post this false information about PA are covert narcissists, or they are have no idea what they are talking about and need to keep their mouths shut because they are helping these criminals.
@@captains5182 I liked this guy at first but he’s exposed himself to be a malignant narcissist himself. He’s doing a lot of damage. Partial truths are deceit and the worst deceit. Propaganda isn’t so much about what is said but what is left out.
I would like to see a video on child rejection of a parent and the other parent who may be encouraging it. And perhaps a follow up on the importance of the rejected parent actually having a relationship with the child.
I am a victim of parental alienation. My ex wife was able to ruin the relationship between me and my daughter. But she was unable to do the same with my father because my daughter loved him. So what my ex wife did? She accused him of molesting my daughter. Now we lost all contact with her. This is so sad. Sorry about my English.
Absolutely brilliant insight. Parental alienation happens more than we think and the alienated parent gets no support. It is devastating for the entire family, really.
When my kid used to come home from her dad’s house she would talk about how much she dislikes him and I’d tell her to be nice and try to spin things a little bit to make him seem better than he is; but as she’s gotten older and she does it I just apologize for her having to go through stuff she doesn’t like. She’s old enough now to understand that he’s a self centered douche who cares more about controlling her (and I) then loving her. If I try to spin things nicely she looks at me like I’m wearing a tea cozy on my head. After he got her a puppy and then got rid of it behind her back there’s no, “nice,” leg to stand on 😖
Be aware parental alienation occurs not just between mother, father and child. Grandparents, family, CPS or anyone that undermines paternal and maternal rights alienate parents. Grandparents and government often undermine a parent's ability to parent effectively just as much as a toxic relationship. No one condones a toxic couple and all will seek to end it. This may not be wise always. Children need to see their toxic parents forgive and reconcile in order to learn themselves how to grow from negative experiences.
A diagnosis already exists - it's called TSD... traumatic stress disorder. I left off the "P" because for many it's not "Post" and may never be. There's also depression, identity and attachment disorders, personality disorders... the list goes on. Some people will never be safe parents, but most seem to be. This is cruelty, brutality, far worse than the word "abuse" can describe. Keep in mind that forced family separation, aka forced adoption by removing children from capable parents, is the ultimate form of PA, yet few people ask, "Where do adoptees come from?" Consider also those whose children are abuducted - the trauma is massive. What's the difference with PA? My heart goes out to all the unnecessarily alienated & genuine parents and the children. Gigi BTSurvivor's comment below has a valid point about the abuser/narcissist often deceives everyone & gets the children, so some parents are forced to "alienate" to save their children. It's a messy situation.
Thank you for bringing the topic into light, Dr. Grande!! In a troubled relationship, the sad reality is that very often than not, involving many family members, not only the children. P.A.S is one of the logical consequences of the difficult situation the children have to face, with limited comprehension when they are young, and the carry over of the sadness into later stages. The absence of problems parents don't help them to get the perspective as what exactly happened, happen at present and what is going to happen. Some people just too egoistical to take up the responsibility of becoming parents. Not to mention those with NPD yet😬 Again, thank you, Doc and have a nice Sunday and God bless🙏🤞
Dr Grande, I feel like my husband has done this to my children by grooming them... Suddenly my children began lying and not trusting me..it worried me but I never understood what was happening until a CPS worker came to my door!!! My children and I had strong emotional bonds...I'm sick because there was no divorce until now.... I know now I am with a narcissist.....now I have to give up my home to get my child because I have been lied to by this man....
Don’t worry about ‘things’ save your children. It will only get worse if you don’t get out.. from someone who has ‘lost their only child now adult to the mental emotional subtle snd consistent brainwashing that eroded my relationship with my son. Its slow insidious and powerful. I barely saw it when I was in it but the impact has been absolutely overwhelming
The principal communication between parent and child regarding the absent parent may not be verbal. I think that the attitude and fears conveyed simply by tone of voice or physical stance etc can be very powerful.
This is so interesting. I just started to learn about this idea a couple of months ago. It seems like it should be important to acknowledge because it does happen where children are abuse and manipulated. It could be considered a V code or in the area for types of suspected/confirmed child abuse. Or look into it as a syndrome. But then again, it could be just aspects of narcissism/dark triad. Ugh there is so much that needs to be updated on the next DSM.
If I could offer an alternative take...The real problem is that the court system has way too many false positive identifications of parental alienation...That is not to say that parents cannot participate in alienating behaviors, which obviously should be discouraged assuming there is not abuse going on. But there is a major gender bias in how it is actually wielded in court. Most cases where it is successfully invoked, it is essentially a "get out of jail free" card for abusive fathers to discredit legitimate claims of abuse from a protective mother. Studies more or less back this up: Fathers invoking PA as a cross-claim against a mother makes them 2 to 6 times as likely to win their case, but the same effect is not observed when mothers invoke it against a father. This outcome is unaltered EVEN IF the father already has a proven history of spousal violence! Complete madness. CPS data shows that even in the context of contentious custody disputes, false claims of abuse are no more common than in the general population. False abuse allegations represent something like 2-6% of cases, so by the numbers if someone is accusing the other party of abuse it is almost certainly a legitimate claim, even if it is later "unsubstantiated" by CPS(that is a whole other can of worms, CPS's criteria for substantiating an abuse claim is so ludicrous, the child has to essentially already be halfway dead- broken bones, repeated trips to the hospital, etc.) . It's also worth noting that in most cases the court does not draw a distinction between "deliberately false" and "unsubstantiated" claims even though they are not at all the same thing. This almost always helps the abuser and hurts the victim in a court setting. You also have to consider the fact that something like 90% of custody disputes are solved outside of court....So if the case has made it all the way to court, that should immediately raise a red flag that this is not simply a case of 2 normal people who are simply in a "high conflict" case, especially if there are claims of abuse. Until good evidence is presented showing otherwise, there should immediately be a presumption that there is an abusive, or coercive dynamic at play. ESPECIALLY if the party being accused of abuse has way more money than the accusing party (they can coercively use the court system and litigation to bleed the victim dry). Yet, judges and parenting coordinators don't really look beyond the surface level to see whether the child actually has a legitimate reason to reject one parent over the other(such as in abuse cases). They usually don't interview the child, or even the child's extended family. They don't look at how the child's dynamic is with each respective parent either. Furthermore, consider this thought experiment: If a child has a good relationship with 1 parent, and the other parent attempts to "alienate" or talk badly about that parent with no good reason...the far more likely outcome is that the child will rebel or reject the "alienating" narrative. Not be blindly brainwashed by the parent attempting to do the alienation. Children instinctually want to keep their family together and do not want to hear one parent badmouthing the other, especially if there really is no good reason...On the other hand, if a child IS rejecting a parent we should take that very seriously and assume that there is a good reason for this, and that it is not simply due to brainwashing by an "alienating" parent. Speaking to that point further, we must take into account the cognitive ability required for a child to not only remember a complex web of lies fed to them by a coaching parent, but being able to repeat it accurately over and over. Alternatively, it does not take much cognitive effort for a child to recall actual abuse that occurred to them. We know that traumatic events have a way of being seared into memory, so if a child makes detailed disclosures we should almost never assume that the story has been fed to them by a "coaching" parent. In fact, studies show that children tend to DOWNPLAY the abuse that was done to them, not over exaggerate or hyperbolize it as so many judges and lawyers seem to think. If anything, when a child discloses we should assume the abuse they suffered was WORSE than what they are reporting. Children are malleable but at the end of the day they are still individuals who, even at a very young age, intuitively understand when something is being done to them that is bad or good. If children were so easily brainwashed then parents wouldn't ever have issues getting them to go to bed on time, or eat their vegetables...But yet, we are somehow supposed to believe that a child rejecting a parent is purely due to the seemingly omnipotent brainwashing effect of an "alienating" parent. Complete nonsense. The PA argument simply allows actual abusers to turn the tables on their victims in court. This largely explains its absence from the DSM...most professionals realize that "Parental Alienation" is a cheap litigation tactic, not a real psychological condition. And that more often than not, it is used to silence the real victims of abuse.
Gooday Dr. Grande . wow is all I can say , for you . I am more a minister for the gruffer crowd . But every video of yours I watch helps me dig to the core of myself , while giving me a better understanding of everyone in life . The mind and soul is so complex . I can't ever really be lied to cause I sense things , but the way people fool us ,, or try too still amazes me . Or if it is a mental physical thing combined ,, I always wonder what happened , or want too . Let me give you an example , or two brief . My adopted Mom got hit by a car at 4 , right front lobe damage . With a very cold personality . I saw three generations of men , hit the other in the same spot , for that reason , right frontal lobe damage . The spot we need to care for others . I have many more observations , but these are my thoughts on this . Thank you , God bless your weekend .
How sad :-(, when I divorced my kid's dad it never even crossed my mind to do this. I'm gone so far as flying him out to see his kids. I let the kids make up their own minds when they were 18. Thanks for the video I always wondered why people do this. I'm glad you said unmitigated because I do know people that the other parent has been a serious crime and that is a little in my mind I shared this with my daughter who works with kids that have parents that are over see you serving in the military oh, she found it very informative
My kid just told me he hates me and "feels like a prisoner" on visits because I'm a "bad wife" and "nothing but a tease". How in the hell is a 7 year old saying that. 😡
Once again, another fantastic video. These really resonate with me as I grew up with two PD parents in an abusive household. I’d like to ask if you’d be willing to do a video discussing Covert/Emotional Incest (enmeshment). It’s something that’s not discussed enough as it feels quite “icky” to talk about but it’s so, so important. It’s something that has effected me deeply and I’m sure others could benefit from knowing about it!
Thank you so much for this clear information. Can you please make another video about this topic how to talk/deal with your child to give them strength and mental protection when this is happening? Thank you
Because my mother was pregnant with me when my parents divorced and she was so resentful and filled with a hatred towards him I believe mostly because my older siblings adored him she wanted to make sure that I wouldn't so I would only love her that she would tell me horrific stories about him when I was around possibly as young 3 years old that traumatized me to the point that every time my father picked us up for visits I would run really high fevers and he would have to bring me home. She told me that while pregnant with me my father started beating her trying to kill me and she had to curl up in a ball to protect me so I believed that he was going to kill me and I was terrified of him, there were several other stories that a child has no business hearing so she succeeded in her mission, I longed for the love that I witnessed between my 3 siblings and my 3 step siblings but never me and I began believing that I must be broken and unlovable so as I continued to be told stories about him over the years I was a depressed and angry child, when my siblings got to the age that he no longer needed to pick them up he just stopped coming at all, I was only 11 years old. My hurt turned into a deep anger towards him for so many years. At 24 years old I was already divorced with a 3 year old son when I remarried what I now know, an extremely intelligent, controlling narcissistic man and had 2 more children, he was so emotionally and mentally abusive to myself and my oldest son and then 21 months later I became disposable after he met someone else and one day he literally grabbed my 2 year old son and 10 month old daughter went into the house and locked me out along with my oldest son and I instantly knew he wasn't going to allow me to take them so I called for police assistance and that's when I learned that him and his mother had been planning this because when the officer got there they had an attorney on the phone waiting to speak to the officer, they lied and said that I had tried to commit suicide while my children were in another room and when the officer told me that I had to leave the premises without my children who had never been apart from me I began crying uncontrollably and hysterically, wasn't able to see them for two weeks at this point but it felt like a lifetime. I thought that I was going to die from a broken heart, every night when I would lay down the pain was so unbearable that I was still crying hysterically every day and night but I didn't know that that was just the beginning because I somehow became someone he hated so much and needed to be destroyed and he used my children as weapons constantly and him and his flying monkeys started their smear campaign against me painting me out as this neglectful person and mother especially to my children. My son absolutely adored me but whenever he would cry for me my sweet little 2 year old baby would be punished and made to do military calisthenics. My ex was able to brainwash my daughter but never my son so he was often physically, mentally and emotionally abused by him. My son is now 26 years old and in the last year and a half he has attempted suicide, my daughter is 25 years old diagnosed as both bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder and she drinks every night while taking lithium and frequently calls me at 3 am sobbing in so much mental and emotional pain that 3 months ago after we had already been talking for at least an hour and a half she suddenly says I'm going to go now and I took a bunch of pills earlier, I live an hour away from her so I had to get through 3 separate police dispatchers before I could even drive to her. I sat there with her for 12 hours watching her vital signs plummet extremely low and then they would raise extremely high and I didn't know if she was going to survive but thank the Lord she did. Two generations of extreme parental alienation destroyed my family's lives and many, many other families out there but yet the courts refuse to acknowledge the destruction of all of these alienated parents and children's lives causing many of them to commit suicide and it never ends even after the reunification.
Idea for a video: talk about the “mama’s boy” phenomenon. Enmeshment etc with family of origin. Why does it happen? Is it correlated with other variables/experiences? What’s the family systems perspective vs the psychodynamic or cog-beh perspective? What can be done about it?
I am aware of a particular phenomenon with regard to this, and am curious about your (and others') thoughts.... In a family undergoing divorce with older kids and/or teens, the kids are (much more often than "system" adults usually recognize!) very aware of the dynamics between their parents, and of each parent's limitations and strengths. When one parent is clearly more unstable than the other, and kids are observing his/her controlling behaviors and trying to avoid being in an unsafe environment or situation with that parent, the other parent is in the unenviable position of having to try not to "poison the well" against the unstable partner, while at the same time advocating for his/her kids' "safety & sanity" (2d-order basic attachment needs, in my own model). They find themselves trying to affirm their children's fears and perceptions without bad-mouthing the partner, and trying to be charitable (towards someone who may have betrayed them or been quite destructive) and still honest. Bottom line -- this is quite a conundrum! Thank God for guardians ad litem and faith communities.... 🙏🥴
I've got this with my wife so actually tell my son the back off and observe her level of anger or craziness as it rises and subsides.. trying to mire train him in observing the sign and symptoms to keep safe.. the at the same time recognise how he feels. The principle is respect has to be earned and if shes lost it and treating him or me badly to deal and manage the situation and keep safe. Then retrospective the feelings to decipher the crazy making and how we feel.
I think I identify with your situation. I’m not too sure about what you mean by the more unstable parent though. Not saying this happens in your situation but I think narcissists like to use the idea of an unstable parent and that often comes from the fact that the narcissist puts in zero effort to look after a child and plan for their future needs, happiness and success. If they do nothing, they’re not going to become frustrated. It’s not uncommon for the narcissist to realise that they don’t really do anything for the kids therefore there’s little to actually criticise in their parenting. Whereas for the parent who is caring for the child, it can be stressful parenting alone at times, especially when a child criticises you using words the narcissist gave them. When you look after a child you’re going to correct the child sometimes and get frustrated. Narcissists like to pretend this makes you a more unstable parent than them, because they need to find something to criticise, otherwise you’re just everything they pretend to be and that must hurt. I don’t think that’s what you were talking about though. But I understand what you mean by protecting the child’s safety and sanity. When you want the best for a child you need them to be able to recognise physically and psychologically dangerous situations and make their own good choices. But then you want the best for your child, and that includes a good relationship with both parents. And it’s also difficult if the other parent tried to destroy you, knowing that you were the child’s support system and that the child would suffer and they just didn’t care what happened to the child as long as they caused maximum suffering to you. My son is 10 years old and he sees his father every second weekend. I make sure he attends every time. I don’t say anything about his father. I tell my son three things though: 1) if you need to judge someone, pay attention to their actions, not their words, and do their words and actions match? 2) you can have a great relationship with someone who isn’t perfect. When you realise someone is not your role model, you can accept it and focus on appreciating the positive and fun traits they have and, 3) always stand up for yourself, make your own choices and make them good ones. My narcissist had a tendency to make enemies and is clueless about avoiding dangerous situations, so there’s always a worry about my son’s physical safety, especially since he’s already had a brain injury due to his father absolutely ignoring the advice of everyone, including medical staff. But everything in life is a risk, so to have that relationship with his father, I guess we need to take that risk. His father’s family are also strangely cult-like and if you asked me who they worship, I’d say themselves as strange as that sounds. If my son were to become like this, like them, I think he’d be doomed to failure in many future relationships and jobs. So I avoid my son staying over. Do they imply I’m an alienator? Yes, they do. They tell my son he should live with his superhero father. The kids is a high achiever and just became a school captain. I can’t imagine the devastation to his life if he did live with his father.
@m norton buswell Totally true. Huge contrast between a dad I know who has been supported (and his very harmful wife reached out to lovingly and appropriately, as well) in one tradition; and a mom I know who is running for her spiritual life as narcissistic dad makes the rounds of different independent churches all over town lying about her (and to himself, it seems) to gain allies -- and, frighteningly, finding many who are too naive, confused, or intimidated to confront him with the truth. Obviously, horrible for her and the kids that need protection from his predations, but also unloving to him, since he clearly needs help, as well -- or at least the possibility of it that God (always) offers.... It's amazing to me that Christian communities can fail to recognize that while God surely grieves the loss of marriages and family commitments, there are other things He might find disagreeable, as well! Duh. 🥴
@@chocolatejellybean2820 That's awesome. In a family with older kids, they are educating themselves about narcissism, in a family with younger ones, the stable parent explains that mom is very sick, and they all need to be compassionate and patient, but also honest (about the situation) and safe. It's amazing (frightening, tragic) how ubiquitous) this is.... 🙏 for you and yours....
@@chocolatejellybean2820 Also -- teaching your son the practice of maintaining a "witness perspective" as you described will serve him in every aspect of life -- every conflict or adverse experience. Creates space for critical thinking and measured response -- 2 things our society notably lacks! Way to go, dad! 😁
I wonder about the question of the relative effects of genetics vs environment. The genetics effect obviously comes from your parents. Your parents are also the two people most likely to create your environment, especially in the formative years. This means that genetics has a strong influence on your environment. Therefore, the total effect of genetics on your personality is extremely high.
Another great video Dr. Grande! Seriously had me remembering a lot of repressed memories from when my parents had shared custody when I grew up. Id say my experiences ranged from moderate to severe because they both manipulated me to think and act a certain way toward them and talked bad about each other whenever the other would contact. (Mom had majority of custody me and dad had visitation) It has greatly impacted my relationship with both of them and now I am not on speaking terms with either going on 3 yrs. Would/could you do a video expanding on the lasting effects of parental alienation? I am 29 now but had moved from the toxicity when I was 27 yrs old. I am still indifferent because the more overt parent (dad) still wants to try and have a relationship but his behavior doesn't reflect that. I really do miss them, Im just afraid of them manipulating me again or not accepting me as the adult I am now. Is there a way to move forward and reclaim our relationship?
@@brusselsprout5851 Thank you and I appreciate the support! I agree kids are very impressionable. I'm focused on unlearning all of their toxic traits. I also cannot wait for the next video, they're all insightful.
Move on they are the ones that are showing through their behaviour that they do not deserve your time. Have standards for who you have in your life family or not. Look at their actions not their words.
So sorry for you! Every family situation is different. From my experience in my birth family and with my own children, it takes BOTH parents wanting the best for their children. So make sure to have children with someone who has the character to put the children's wellbeing first. I am an alienated primary custody parent - I could have a better relationship with my kids, but only if I allowed myself to be treated like a doormat...the same baloney the toxic father pushed. It is extremely sad (for me). I pray that I have dreams of reuniting with my children before I sleep - and strangely enough, almost every night I do. :-). PAS is very common with personality disordered individuals - one parent can ruin everything. There is NO co-parenting with a sociopath or narcissist. The lawyers and courts only make things worse. I hung on for dear life, trying to show my children real love and a genuine "soul-filled" life. My children use the same gaslighting and scape-goating tactics as their father - (he might send them $$ in exchange for loyalty/abandoning me). When my kids were little, I would only allow my children to be real - as we boost ourselves when we are real. That meant countering their dads cruelty, while I tried to show them their strengths. But now, my adult children lie to themselves and also about others (this is pathology). Note: I am not saying you are lying to yourself! If one parent is a sociopath/narcissistic personality disorder - should the other be walked on in order to 'keep the peace' indefinitely? What do we teach our sons and daughters? I chose to live by example and will not be a doormat - not even/especially for my children. I am not saying that both of your parents are/are not disordered or did not try. I do not know them. But just want to point out that one parent can railroad relationships. I could be still with my children - but only IF I conformed to their father's rule. (Their dad is a sociopath which is why I am on Dr. Grandes You Tube channel.) Praying all children caught up in the pathology of dysfunctional relationships, know they do not deserve to be used to hurt another (child abuse!). All the best to you!
@@jeanjohnson6443 I understand completely and yes I believe my parents are to a degree have some sort of a personality disorder. My father is Bipolar with psychotic tendencies and has PTSD from serving in the Army. My mom is the only one that goes undiagnosed she had endured domestic abuse while being with my father when he struggled with substance abuse. But from all the emotional dumping and verbal abuse it's an energy sucking vortex that my mind has a hard time getting out of. My mom hasn't reached out to me since the fall out, I have sent her and my step father a letter apologizing for my behavior and I thanked them for providing for me. Now it's resorted to low contact which is ok but I still struggle for that toxic hope that they will realize how much damage they inflicted on me growing up. I understand the frustration trying to co parent and still have sanity. Boundaries help so much with that. I really hope you reunite with your kids someday. Life is fleeting and we aren't guaranteed tomorrow. I don't like to stay stagnant because I've been indulging in self help and online forums to hopefully gain insight. Healing is not easy for me when I feel like I'm the only one doing it. The fact that you all understand is very validating but still highlights the nasty cycle of abuse that affects many families.
@@rebeccajimenez6109 It is comforting that people here understand. And it is difficult when you feel like you are the only one trying....I completely get all of it. When I had my first child, I forgave my parents for all of their 'sins'. LOL. I realized how hard it is to raise children - my dad was also PTSD (Korean war). Thank you for your nice words, and I am praying for all to have happy resolutions :-).
Interesting as always. Could you do a video about typical childhoods/parental methods that might lead to different personality disorders? I‘d be mostly interested about schizoid pd and how that would typically develop. Many thanks and greetings from Switzerland!
In switzerland there is a mum who have a blog and proudly said that she dont ask her kids or opinion and proudly alienate her kids from her dad and said tht is in the best interest of he child and ok. She identifies her motherhood with her gender discusting.
My children's step father who is highly NPD have completely alienated my grown children (in their 30's) and they have completely cut me off possibly for the rest of my life. I'm not permitted to see my grandchildren. The npd stated 18 years ago during out courtship. I has a loving and caring relationship with my children. It is heart breaking.
Thank you for this video. It was incredibly validating. Thank you for delineating the difference between the debunked syndrome and Parental Alienating Behaviors. And also for highlighting the reality that manipulation and narcissism can be attributed to the parent alienating their children.
My half-sister (same mother, different father), who is 10 yrs older than me, tried to alienate me from our mother, starting from when I was about 13 yrs old. She would speak badly about how our mother 'treated' me, constantly reminding me that my mother had slapped me once (I had called my mother 'bitch', and yes, she slapped me for it. That was only time my mother ever touched me!) Despite all my sister's efforts, she did not succeed in getting me to hate her..... however, for more than 40 years I walked around with a dark cloud following me, that I couldn't get rid of, and I never recognised the connection of that cloud with what my sister had been doing to my head..... that is, until I started doing searches on the internet, because of my narcissist ex-husband's behaviours (he was encouraging the children to hate me) which I was trying to figure out.... and that's when I learned about 'parental alienation'. And it was then that I realised that what my husband was doing to our kids was exactly what my sister had been doing to ME. And almost to the minute that I realised that, that I understood what my sister had been doing to me, that dark cloud that had been with me for 40+ years instantly lifted right off of me..... and it has never returned! (Note: I have not had any contact with my sister since..... she is 10 years older than me, but looks 10 years younger than me. Yea, apparently dark clouds hovering over you for 40 years doesn't have many positive 'beauty' benefits!)
(I found and watched your 11/10/18 interview with Meredith Miller on RUclips today, the one entitled "The Psychopath vs. The Sociopath," and I recommend it. One layman's opinion: you really know your stuff. I'll watch it again later. Thanks.)
I recently watched a RUclipsrs video about picking up his 18 year old son from his ex wife's house. It was disturbing to me that he filmed this event. Seems like something that should have been kept private.
My mum did moderate parental alienation but she didn’t realise she was doing it & has since apologised for doing that to me. There was no custody dispute because my father had brain damage & couldn’t care for himself let alone a bunch of kids. His family of origin & mum (they never divorced so mum could make decisions for his medical care) agreed to place him in a really nice home with wonderful staff. Mum’s problem was that she was so ANGRY at having to do everything alone. She had 5 kids, a full time job & a man who was supposed to be her partner becoming like another child in the house but this one drained the bank account with his gambling addiction (something he had before the Encephalitis)... eventually you just have to realise that BOTH your parents are just humans who make mistakes & if you’re lucky, you can work through them to develop a close & loving relationship with both parents, if they’re still alive (It’s to work out your “daddy issues” if daddy died)
This has happened so much in my Grandkids family I don’t know which kid belongs to whom. I’m like “is that the kid by the 3rd husband or the second or one of ours? What a horrid MESS she made of it.
During my custody battle I had so much evidence to show parental alienation but no one would listen to me. Not several lawyers, not the court...no one. The only court that backed me was district court where I got a harassment prevention order after I showed proof of harassment to the judge. Unfortunately that doesn't prove alienation and family court didn't care he was harassing me. 5 years later they both live with him and they refuse to talk to me. My ex also discourages they goto family therapy with me to work through everything. He intends they cut me out permanently while i pay him child support.
I'll ask again...how do you know that the defiant behavior isn't due to the fact that the child is being forced to spend time with someone who is abusing them? The 7 criteria you outlined are not great indicators of alienation, they could very well be signs of prolonged abuse...From the perspective of the protective parent, there is a difference between wanting to limit the custody time of an abusive partner due to very realistic fear of them harming your child....versus just trying to limit custodial time for no reason other than vengeance post separation. What I have witnessed in my own life is that the court does a TERRIBLE job of making this distinction...Taking steps to protect a child from harm, which would mean trying to limit custodial time, is not "alienation". The behavior might look similar, but surely you can acknowledge that the motivation for that behavior is coming from a different place than being vengeful. In the example you used, where the daughter is calling her mom and not listening to her father, or destroying items...how do you know its not because the father is actively abusing her? That would be a perfectly valid explanation for that behavior, especially if the daughter has previously made disclosures of abuse and is STILL being forced to spend unsupervised time with him. So why are you immediately blaming the other parent for "coaching" the child to behave that way? That is a dangerously misguided way to approach this issue, especially in cases where abuse has been alleged. There are tons of false positive identifications of alienation, that's the entire issue with the argument. I think you are downplaying this outcome way too much. I would be curious to see you comment on the work of Joan Meier, who produced a study basically showing what many of us always suspected...Namely, that fathers accused of abuse will use alienation as a cross claim against the mother in an attempt to make her look like the perpetrator. What Meier found is that mothers are somewhere between 2-6 times more likely to lose custody when facing an alienation cross claim. Most interestingly, this outcome was not observed in the reverse scenario - if Dad accused Mom of abuse, and then mom countered with a claim of alienation, fathers were no more likely to lose custody.
I have one parent bad talk another while the other didn't. I ended up having a more balanced approach mostly because the bad talk was never back up by the behavior I was seeing. Eventually, the parent doing the bad talking cut all ties with me. I really think I am better off.
Besides assigning blame to parents, from my experience, the Guardian ad litem, the court, the judge, the attorneys, et al., make custody disputes a "winner takes all" determination. They spew out of one side of their mouth "what's in the best interest of the children", while awarding 100% of custody to the mother. Children do best with both parents equally involved in their lives, yet custody is awarded almost always to the mother, and she is NEVER held accountable thereafter, not even to the court's order. The mothers bad mouth the father because she feels invincible, as though she is the "moral" parent, because she got custody. But she is NOT the moral parent, any more than a man is the moral parent. The decision to award custody is based entirely from a financial benefit. The court, the judge, and the municipality receive 3% matching dollars from the social security fund, so their decision is based entirely on who makes more money, THAT parent WILL NOT get custody. Furthermore, the courts will never enforce any action against the mother, only jail the father for "contempt", usually his crime being unable to pay the onerous child support if he falls ill or his company folds, downsizes, or cuts back. I have never in my life heard of a woman going to jail due to violating a family court order, EVER. The father, in the children's eyes, is viewed as contemptible because he is in such a position of weakness. Moms are awarded authority, which is a dad's God-given role, while dad can barely make ends meet financially, and mom will take him back to court time and time again, to enforce her dominance over him. So the courts are more responsible, in my opinion, in alienating children from their father for creating a winner takes all for mothers. Children lose out, and it creates a lot more resentment and tension between the parents than it would if 50-50 custody with no money extorted from one parent. That resentment is the likely cause of parents alienating the children, because of the bitterness felt, especially by the father, who rightfully feels he got screwed over. That is how things played out for me. I never alienated my kids, but my ex continues to this day. I don't even get to see my children, and the court monitors my child support payments, and my court ordered health insurance. But even when I bring up her violations to my attorney, he won't even file any action, because he is afraid to "offend" the judge. The family courts need to be done away with completely. Divorces would hardly be a thing if women weren't heavily compensated for nuking their own families.
You do realize that 1) Most custody cases do not make it to court...but when they do, fathers are just as likely or even more likely to win custody, especially if they invoke the parental alienation argument against the mother. And 2) most fathers involved in a custody dispute willingly forgo additional custody time. So yes, mothers get custody more but that is largely because the fathers voluntarily give up their time. Maybe we should focus more on improving men to be better fathers and not denigrating mothers.
@@ultimate8550 You are very incorrect. Most custody cases do go through court - how do support orders get created if not through the court system? And how does custody get established? Really??? Are you serious that fathers invoke parental alienation argument and gain custody? Fathers have zero rights in family court due to how it is set up. A father can bring up parental alienation, but the court will scoff at any allegations he makes. If a woman made the same allegation, her concerns would be considered. I have never met nor heard of any father willingly give up additional custody time, ever. The entire premise of family courts is to automatically grant custody to the mother while penalizing the father financially, removing children from his influence, and putting the father under the authority of a woman. It's a satanic agenda. The Godly agenda is/was for families to remain intact with the father as the sole authority over the entire family. After rereading your comment, I have come to the conclusion that you are either a moron or deliberately obfuscating the issue. I was divorced in 2007, was able to "visit" with my kids one weekend a month... until my ex-wife petitioned the court to end that. I haven't seen my kids in over 9 years. Tell me again how fathers have equal rights and willingly give up time with their children, moron. And how should we not denigrate mothers? My ex-wife took an oath before God, the church, our family and friends, that she would remain my wife until death. But after 7 years, because she wasn't "happy", she destroyed a huge portion of my life, and left my sons without a father involved in their lives in their most formidable years. Denigrating mothers who use the corrupt and evil family court system to enact punishment on her husband for the most arbitrary of reasons seems more than justifiable. Have you noticed that marriage has been on the decline ever since the formation of family courts? Men are learning how corrupt this institution is. If family court is as fair as you say, how come marriage has declined so greatly?
Dr. Grande... Have you considered covering topics on how PSA and estrangement work together? My adult daughter has estranged herself from my husband and I, due to my brother and his wife, who had custody of her when she was born, and didn't want to give her up when I won the court case. As a result , I believe that my daughter suffered from attachment disorders, which contributed to her emotional and behavioral challenges. We did not get along when she was growing up and she left home after she graduated from high school, to live with a member of her church. When my brother and his wife found out, they very quickly invited her to be a part of the holidays, while intentionally excluding my husband and I. He had help from the family to accomplish this (flying monkeys). Our relationship with our daughter was very strained after she moved out, but it has now resulted in complete estrangement, especially since my brother and his wife asked her to move in with them and offered to pay for her college education, something that our daughter resented my husband and I for not agreeing to do. We feel that she has joined in with the family's scapegoating routine as a way to justify the behavior that lead us to tell her that she could not move back in with us, after she left. However, I am also doing my best to empathize with how she feels. As a result of my husband and I being "kicked out of the tribe", I formalized our many years of going "no contact" by permanently breaking ties with my family, since I considered this behavior to be very abusive not only to me, but very toxic and damaging to everyone as a whole, especially our daughter. By the way, my brother bullied me while I was growing up, and into adulthood, as others in the family will attest to (the elephant pooping in the living room). We noticed a difference in our daughter's attitude towards us, once she moved in with my brother. Now, she has become very hostile towards me, as well, and as a result, a relationship with her is not sustainable at this point, especially since she issued me an "ultimatum" that she would not have a relationship with us, unless we rejoined the family! We can only hope that with time, she may realize what is going on, but with her diagnosis of ODD at a young age, and my wondering when she was a teenager if she was narcissistic, this gives us cause for concern. With the multitudes of videos and blogs on estrangement and narcissism, the parent is always blamed. With the rise of estrangement coinciding with the young adult "entitlement" culture, isn't it time that we consider that these adult children could also be responsible?
Parental alienation is very real. It's happened to my ex brother-in-law and a dear friend. In fact, our whole family have been cut off from my BIL's children so my kids can never meet their own cousins. It's very cruel. My friend is working desperately to build a relationship with her estranged daughter. It's very stressful. As a divorcee, I really try my best to encourage the relationship between my kids and their father. It wasn't easy in the beginning because he broke my heart and then treated me like dirt as though it was my fault. I probably did a bit of mild parental alienation, but felt so bad about it afterwards and compensated. Parents need to be counseled during divorce about these things. But I think severe alienation is done by a narcissist. 😥😭
I didn’t hear you mention when there’s actual abuse going on, and how accusations of PA can be used to further the violence, eg. gender-based violence and the misuse of parental alienation in family courts.
I am an alienated father who went through a contentious divorce. I haven't seen my sons in over 18 mos and don't expect to be invited to their high school and college graduations next year. So I'm predisposed to agree with Dr. Grande's observations. But I wish the literature he references was more extensive and compelling. One is to a paper written by Richard Warshak, a leading proponent of PA who endorses a draconian method of deprogramming children subjected to PA that is hotly debated (and arguably cruel). The only other reference is a dead link to Dr. Grande's alma mater's web site. In other words, the literature supporting the idea of PA cited here is limited and easily dismissed by its critics. I'm also wary of second hand or amateur diagnoses of narcissism and BPD. I don't think my ex- is narcissistic or has a personality disorder. I just think she did a really shitty thing. A more measured and forceful argument supporting the existence of PA and its damaging effects on children is the fact that a variation of it was recently approved for inclusion in the WHO's ICD diagnostic manual. I think this carries more weight than the sources cited here. All the better if the DSM follows suit. www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/a-divorced-father-his-estranged-kids-and-a-controversial-program-to-bring-them-together/2017/05/09/b50ac6f6-204c-11e7-ad74-3a742a6e93a7_story.html karenwoodall.blog/2019/05/27/world-health-organisation-recognises-parental-alienation/
Having delved further in to Childress' videos and online writing, I find his claims dubious. There's no data from well-designed, peer-reviewed studies to support his theories on PA. IMO, until there is, it's pseudoscience.
@@Whatnot Hows it 'dubious' If you know anything about attachment systems, or even experienced anything of the sort, he's straight on target. This is about family and attachment systems. Not just remnants of a clusterB abuser, but an entire historical family dynamic whereby the abusive parent typically roleplays their own trauma through their own child. In other words, projection and trauma reenactment, intergenerational trauma transference and enmeshment, among other things. Id be interested to know what/where you think he's off target. It appears the politicisation of the alienation situation has tainted the real world effects of the behaviour to children. IMO the effects of PA on kids are far more important than tryin to prove which parent was right or wrong. If there is THAT much of a problem, supervised visits are always an option. If THAT is a problem for people, then THOSE PEOPLE need to be scrutinised... NOONE has the right to keep a child away from ANY parent save for actualised and proven abuse.
I had an unusual situation in which mother constantly reinforced the idea that farther was a good man and how much they loved me even though the behaviour of father didn't match up with this. Turns out both parents were damaged and unable to provide healthy consistent parenting in different ways. So many people shouldn't have children.
I appreciate your clinical views but I think that unless and until you've lived with a narcissist and get a personal view of how warped their needs are, you won't really understand how easy it is for them to coerce and brainwash their own children for their emotional benefit. For them it's a win or lose viewpoint. There is no in between. To decide that the "syndrome" is not real is short-sighted and just wrong. Live with this person. Have a child with them, divorce them, and watch what they do with that child. You won't be so carelessly ready to write it off.
& youll find most people opining on this have NO IDEA about family systems, attachment systems, or psycholoigcal trauma incited by a cluster B partner or mother. More often than not, many dont even realise theyve been abused until its too late...
I don’t understand why a couple divorcing would be so immature as to manipulate a child, when they both know this is a traumatic episode for the family, and a time when a child needs to feel loved more than ever. Yet I’ve seen this manipulation in every couple I know who have divorced.
Perhaps the reality is nature intended for children to learn from their parents' experience and no matter how difficult and culturally manifested this awful situation is, children will learn something from it just as they always have and society should get off policing families and punishing them and look for simplicity except in the worst cases where a child is being severely abused and then protect the child first and foremost and otherwise proceed with caution.
Scott Family If a child does not have their needs met by age 4, if they are traumatized, their brains never fully develop. People have traditionally had a tribal culture, where there is a lot of support. That support seems to be vital for healthy growth and maturity. Each generation becomes more isolated. That can’t be healthy.
@@Caperhere I believe supportive villages are wonderful, but I also believe in children being with and having one dedicated attached figure primarily available at least through the ages of three to five, depending on the child. I homeschooled my kids in the early years and they are doing amazing in regular school now, and there wasn't ever a time they weren't learning. If the village is supportive that is great, but in most cultures there is still a primary parent. My kids thoroughly benefitted and feel themselves that they do well and are the kind of children everyone enjoys and have the confidence to think outside the box and speak up when necessary because I spent dedicated time with them. We enjoy each other's company but also all their teachers have said they see all the time the difference it makes if a parent spends that time with their child and they all support homeschooling unequivocally. When I placed my eldest child at three and a half in a few hours of playschool three days a week, that was perfect for her and she was always ready to go home after those few hours and glad to have the next day off. Her playschool teacher took babies six months and above but didn't believe any child should be away from its mother before three to three and a half, period, after running a really nice care centre with a high school buddies programme for close to 40 years. She didn't think children should spend the many hours they did there either. You see their lights go out. It isn't fair to children at all. My son was very happy to stay home with me until nine but he always had good friends and I was always the parent available and trusted for extended caregiving. My kids have great social lives and are very independent. People have to do what they have to do but I wouldn't have had children if I thought I would have had to dump them in day care all day. I also saw many unexpected upsetting happenings where, if parents knew, they would be really upset and angry, when I spent hours in playschool after play school (just as I have in senior's care homes) whether they were considered top notch public or private, looking for the right setting for my child, and also spent a wonderful time in a parent run preschool that was really lovely. There were a couple of good nature based parent run ones, but many times they have a mixed bag of parents involved and your child is at the mercy of other's moods and attitudes where as there was so much joy and peace and time for my children to explore independently on their own time lines during the time we had together. That safety then gave them courage and confidence now.
Dr. Grande I would agree that new situations for children to cope with can only exacerbate parental alienation. When both a boy and girl close in age are involved along with lawyers betting on outcomes giving unwise advice the chidlren are again the most at risk all the way to their own completion of at least a diploma or a degree in post secondary education.
Wow, Dr. Grande, choosing this topic will bring you millions of views... This is sooo common! My mom tried this with my father and me (but it didn't work, she had underestimated my intelligence, hihi 😊 ) and my husbands Ex-wife did it successfully with his daughter. Maybe I write a second comment later about it. I'm afraid that Dr. Grande will work and work and work and then suddenly fall off his seat and is... 💀 !
Parental alienation never occurs in a vacuum and is not the occasional back and forth complaint one parent has about the other to their children every now and then, nor even a repeat specific complaint amongst positives, in a normal family dynamic, even during divorce. We are all human and our children learn from our humanity and our imperfections, too.
Parental alienation can be identified. 100% I am a step parent and this has happened and still tries to happen to my husband and I. Alienation didn't happen during their divorce, but years later when his ex was settled with a new husband and new baby. A huge effort to get her daughter to wright in a diary to use secretly in court. After she got caught, my partner took his daughter to a therapist to find out what was going on. The therapist gave us a book and it was a checklist of symptoms. The therapist helped reconnect him with his daughter. Damage though, will forever be their. His ex still continues to this day with trying to alienate. Best defense for combating alienation is for the targeted parent to delicately show his disagreement with his ex's views and to show facts, only after the alienating parent has brought the child into adult matters.The ex finds reasons to this day to revisit court trying to pressure her daughter in unnecessary views. I could go on and on. If anyone is experiencing this, which we usually don't know its happening, look up Dr. Craig Childress videos to understand what is going on in a breakdown. He give a wonderful examples. Watch the videos pertaining to psychologist and how to diagnose! To each child, targeted parent, step parent out their dealing with this. Remember to always stay neutral and to tame the rollercoaster. Its ok to need time for yourself, work together with your partner, and go on dates to destress.
One tweenie I knew saw through this tactic. A boyfriend of her moms was there criticizing her Dad. She stopped the conversation and, said,” if my Dad is so bad why don’t you put down the coffee cup ‘ HE’ bought, get your ass off the couch ‘HE’ bought, open the door ‘HE’ bought and walk through it? She said, “Why would you want to be in the house of such a bad person if you want to criticize him so bad?” Older children can see through tactics if the other parent doesn’t withhold affection when a child expresses reality.
I take this term with a grain of salt. Because I have primary custody of my son (He is 5 1/2) and he openly states he wants to stay with me more and doesn't want to see mom. He tells me his mom and stepdad fight and also fight with each other and talk s*it about me. I also provide a better stable life for him, with me he has, 2 cats a puppy, I am involved with grandparents (on BOTH sides of the family), his mother has been claiming parental alienation because of this, but she doesn't provide a good life for him at all, she only cares about herself or instagram. It's a scary slope since women are more believed in general IMO. MY ex is also refusing to participate in therapy sessions for our son (Which is supposed to involve me, her, and our son) all because she is afraid of our son choosing me over her. This topic is such a scary slippery slope.
Yes. This is a great example of the kind of situation I outlined in my other comment. The courts generally do make this tough on dads because of the automatic benefit of the doubt assigned to moms 🙄, but it's unbelievable how easily a court can be by a dad who is a skilled narcissist. Yikes. Our kids are so vulnerable to their parents. Good for you for taking good care of your son! 😉🙏
Judy Lee Yeah. It’s hard to judge based on it being a small paragraph on RUclips, some info could have been left out. But, I agree that it just doesn’t sound right. Exactly what danger or problem does the mother pose to the child? Being a better parent or thinking that you are is not grounds for keeping a child from the other parent. It is hard when your ex is a crap parent. But if there’s no danger, you just to do what you can to ensure the child doesn’t turn out like them. My ex’s family would give Chris Watts’ family a run for their money, but I still have to send my son there to see them and his father. I’m fodder to them, my son is fodder to them and has value only to demonstrate how wonderful his dad (their son) is, despite the fact his dad had nothing to do with anything my son has achieved. But, I still cannot say anything negative about them in front of my son and I have to ensure he attends every visit. Of course they speak badly of me and are narcissistic, but unless there is real harm being done, the child has to see the other parent.
@@brusselsprout5851 It's required by the Court in Colorado. It was mandated that we are both present for our Son's therapy sessions. She's refusing to go because she has joint decision making on medical (Hence, she can just refuse to show up to stone wall the sessions.). She lost School decision making doing the same tactic earlier in the year, I now have sole decision on that. I also have primary and majority custody. My ex is a narc, and not having any control over anything drives her mad. She believes our son "should just love her more", but again she doesn't understand how to provide properly. Thus, she causes these small issues that don't even need to be issues. I made appointments, put them on our calendar on Talking Parents, time, day, etc. Doesn't show up. I can't force someone to participate if they do not want to. Again I do not "hate" my ex, I think she fell down a narc hole and got caught up with the wrong crowd of friends and her new guy is a complete narc and has control issues. It's just sad IMO.
When there is an absent parent and the child bonds with grandparents. The Ailienator can do this to the grandparents or other adult figures. It is frequently done to grandparents. I prefer the term "Child Ailienation."
Proving parental alienation in court usually involves explication of the Five Factor Model and presentation of evidence through the prism of the model. The Five-Factor Model is based on the work of Amy J. L. Baker, Ph.D., and her colleagues.10 According to the parental alienation theory, when a court or a professional is asked to determine the presence of (or rule out) parental alien ation, such determination cannot be made without considering the actions, behaviors, and attitudes of all the relevant players, to wit: the child, the rejected parent, and the favored parent. One way to make this determination is to consider the five factors proposed by Dr. Baker and her colleagues: (1) the child actively avoids, resists, or refuses a relationship with a parent; (2) presence of a prior positive relationship between the child and the now rejected parent; (3) absence of abuse or neglect or seriously deficient parenting on the part of the now rejected parent; (4) use of multiple alienating behaviors by the favored parent; and (5) exhibition of many or all of the eight behavioral manifestations of alienation by the child. When all five factors are present, one can determine that the child is alienated. The Five-Factor Model is not a speculative, academic theory; the model has been empirically supported in a study of sixty-eight mental health profession als who rated sixteen variations of a vignette.¹¹ As Dr. Baker explains, [a]ll ratings of the vignette with Factors 2-5 present indicated that alien ation was the most likely cause of a child's rejection of the other parent. When only one or no factor was present, there was an agreement that it was not a case of alienation.12 The Model offers family law practitioners and judges a framework to ensure that information about all relevant parties is factored into making an assess ment or a finding. More importantly, the Model can be used to differentiate alienated from estranged children.¹3 Let's consider each factor and how it fits in presenting a case of parental alienation in court. Page 83
My nieces and nephews are not only being alienated from their Father, my brother. But the whole family...my children are not even allowed to send cards to their cousins! And my niece told my brother, as She sobbed her eyes out, that She never wanted to visit Him and spend time with Him anymore. After She got these words out, her little sister said, "Mommy told Emma She had to say that!" It's complete abuse and evil!
So I've noticed there is no talk about very young children in this conversation. And how a parent with primary custody can hurt a parent so much that they don't want to engage at all with them for fear of extreme attacks against their ability to be a parent, and the child is so young they have no ability to articulate their desire to see the other parent essentially making it where the other parent never exists, and even replacing the parent with another person entirely.
One of the saddest parts is that children who are victims of parental alienation report having trouble forming bonds and attachment with their own children as adults. It's creating generational trauma.
Unfortunately parental alienation also sometimes is targeted at step parents as well. It's not only narcissism that plays a role in this but also some folks with BPD. They are afraid their child will abandon them for the other parent. You are very wise to stay away from talking about the political forces that influence this topic of discussion. They do play a very large role in those who rail against its existence though.
As do step-parents target the real parent. I've been dealing with a stepmother that has fed my daughter horrific disgusting lies since my daughter was six years old
Parental alienation may exist, remember we didnt know ADHD existed we didnt know Autism was a thing.... as time goes on we learn more about psychology theres things we wont know for hundreds of years, maybe disorders that dont exist yet
Destroying a child's relationship with "the other" parent is one of the cruelest things parents do to their kids.
It's not just 'cruel', it's 'child abuse', and is recognised as such in the DSM-5
@@HatBilly2008 - Diagnostic Code V 995.51 "Child psychological abuse"
@@beautifuldayzee5942 It's not in the DSM 5 as it is a farce
@@beautifuldayzee5942 Hello Beautiful Dayzee. I have a question that I cannot find the answer to. Can parental alienation manifest itself later in life when the children are grown up? I guess it might be called delayed onset parental alienation. I always thought I had a good relationship with my daughters when they were kids, but now they have had their own children (my grandchildren), and a couple of years ago they rejected me completely 'out of the blue'. Whenever this topic is discussed it's always about parental alienation while the children are still young and in the custody of the alienating parent.
I've always known their mother for years very cunningly would cast negative words, tone of voice and body language against me for leaving her over 30 years ago. I also know I'm always being run down behind my back, and that the siblings then most likely reinforce the negative messaging between themselves in the family group.
It breaks my heart that at 65, I'm now estranged from my daughters and I cannot have a happy relationship with them or my grandchildren. On the rare occasions I've tried to discuss any of these issues I'm just invalidated and told I'm dredging up the past. And it's not like I harp on it. In fact I'd prefer to look forward not back. But, how can you solve a relationship problem without discussing it? I think I'll go to my grave with only the beautiful memories we had together when they were kids. How can I understand this better? Do you know where I can find out more about this phenomena? Thanks, I look forward to your reply.
It’s awful, my father went to the extreme with this and took me/ kept me from my mother for over 10 years unless we were in court, badmouthed her, screamed at me if I said I missed her, told me so many stories I voluntarily started being mean to her myself, made me get information from her, told me what to say in court, etc. She passed away five months ago, at only 41. But I stopped talking to my father and got to form sort of a relationship with her for three years. I’ll never get that time back and I miss her so very much I can’t stand it. I will never do this to my children
I would love to see balanced, level-headed information on how to cope as an alienated parent.
Check out Rebecca Zung's information on her YT, it's the best I've found on YT. Patience, sticking to scheduled visits/time with child, hiring a attorney who is familiar with parental alienation if you need one, & therapy is a absolute must, this is child abuse, the child is basically being treated as if they were in a cult with astounding similarities, former victims of parental alienation claim it was like being in a cult & the techniques are the same.
I'm in this situation, & I'm reading the Ellipsis Manuel, how to use hypnosis & NLP (Neurolinguistic Programming) without the person knowing. It's written by one of the top hypnotists in the world, & taken from the military, released for the first time. Her brain needs re-wiring, the child is in very bad shape, as her Mom has messed her up in too many ways to count. I'm so sorry you are going through this. Feel free to ask me any questions, I've researched the heck out of this & I'm also a therapist (though not for children). Much Love
Interesting video Dr. Grande
My mom didn't tell me who my real dad was until I was 26. This is similar to parental alienation because it seems her goal was the same- no relationship or coparenting.
I’m a retired children’s mental health nurse (and paediatric nurse). This reminds me of a family I met when I was working. Their two daughters were referred to our service with anxiety issues. They were seen and assessed as being suitable for CBT and one of our clinical psychologists treated both girls, but before she could complete their treatment the psychologist left our service.
The girls were handed over to a trainee social worker who was in the team for 6 months. When she moved on the girls were handed over to me because I was finishing my CBT training.
I read the files. I was confused because according to the original psychologist’s comments, the treatment was in the final stages when they were handed over to the trainee. They were supposed to have had 3 further sessions and then be discharged. The anxiety was considered to be mild with slight elements of OCD in both girls. And yet according to the trainee’s notes, their anxiety and OCD had deteriorated to a severe level.
I also noted that the parents were in the middle of an acrimonious divorce and that they had not been able to engage with the court mediation service.
I met the girls and the mother and father (separately). I re-assessed the anxiety and OCD, and I re-established the CBT. Both girls responded beautifully. I completed the treatment and it was when I began to discuss how we were moving towards discharging the girls that I was subjected to a high level of hostility from the mother, claiming that both daughters had severely relapsed. She wrote a complaint, insisting that the girls could not be discharged because their mental health problems were being caused by the father. I received a similar complaint from the father but he stated it was the mother’s mental instability as being the cause of their daughters’ mental health problems, and he too thought that his daughters were suffering with ‘severe’ mental health problems.
It was at this point that I received a request from the courts for a report into the girls mental health problems.
This is how I handled this. I met with each parent separately and obtained detailed and specific information on what they were observing in their daughters that told them their symptoms were severe. Neither could give me ANYTHING that supported their claims, in fact I took the opportunity to do some health education about hand washing and infection control. E.g, the mother made one claim about her daughters excessive hand washing because neither of the girls could refrain from washing their hands after coming into the home from the stables where they’d been mucking out and grooming the horses! The paediatric nurse in me kicked in and I did a little bit of hygiene education! There were no untoward hand washing issues or other mental health problems after that because each claim could be explained with common sense.
It was at this point that each of them unburdened themselves of their marital difficulties and how each believed the other to be unfit to have custody of the girls. This was the crux of the complaint and I realised I was now in the mediation arena, and needed to be very clear with my professional boundaries.
So I formulated a plan that went like this. I said I would refer them back to the court mediation services because it was clear that mediation was needed in this situation. I said that the girls treatment would end as per the original care plan that both parents had consented to, as had the girls, and that I was required to write a report to the courts that would explain the referral, the treatment and the outcome.
Both parents, separately, were frustrated with me and made a second complaint, which was rejected by my senior managers who wrote back to the parents, advising them to return to the court mediation services and allow me to finish the treatment.
In the following few week, one of the girls disclosed how she felt about the divorce, about how her mother would openly berate their father before they visited him, and how their father kept pumping them for information about what the mother was doing and about what a terrible mother she was.
This left me in the position of having to make a child protection referral. I spoke with both parents about this and stated that I would have to include this information in my report to the courts.
By the time that I wrote my report, I felt that the girl’s mental health problems were entirely the creation of the parents inability to resolve their divorce amicably and that the girls were simply pawns in their parents marital games. There were indicators of fabricated illness by proxy which I also put in the report and referred to social services child protection.
The girls completed their treatment with our mental health service and then were handed over to child protection.
It was only at this point that they backed off and calmed down.
Parental alienation is a serious problem for children and their self esteem, their confidence and their mental health, and as such I view in the same way as Fabricated Illness by Proxy, i.e, it is first and foremost a child protection issue.
I appreciate reading your post was very helpful..Thank You for your time to write it all out..I agree with your analysis is exactly right in my opinion too.
This is to Ruth Jones: The frustrating thing is you do not understand PA at all. Most of the time one parent is the alienater and the other parent is desperately trying to get the courts to understand what is going on. You are acting like these parents just “couldn’t get along.” That devalues the alienated parent further, after what may have been years of abuse from the other parent.
I found this video especially interesting. Early in my working career I worked for a divorce lawyer for five years as a legal secretary. Sadly, as you said parental alienation was quite the norm in my boss's practice. It was a real fight to get these clients to stop using the children as weapons against each other, as the children lost every time. Thanks for taking the time to do your videos. Cheers!
If I could offer an alternative take...The problem is the court system has way too many false positive identifications of parental alienation...That is not to say that parents cannot participate in alienating behaviors, which obviously should be discouraged assuming there is not abuse going on. But there is a major gender bias in how it is actually wielded in court. Most cases where it is successfully invoked, it is essentially a "get out of jail free" card for abusive fathers to discredit legitimate claims of abuse from a protective mother. Studies more or less back this up: Fathers invoking PA against a mother makes them 2 to 6 times as likely to win their case, but the same effect is not observed when mothers invoke it against a father. This outcome is unaltered EVEN IF the father already has a proven history of spousal violence! Complete madness.
CPS data shows that even in the context of contentious custody disputes, false claims of abuse are no more common than in the general population. False abuse allegations represent something like 2-6% of cases, so by the numbers if someone is accusing the other party of abuse it is almost certainly a legitimate claim, even if it is later "unsubstantiated" by CPS(that is a whole other can of worms, CPS's criteria for substantiating an abuse claim is so ludicrous, the child has to essentially already be halfway dead- broken bones, repeated trips to the hospital, etc.) . It's also worth noting that in most cases the court does not draw a distinction between "deliberately false" and "unsubstantiated" claims even though they are not at all the same thing. This almost always helps the abuser and hurts the victim in a court setting.
You also have to consider the fact that something like 90% of custody disputes are solved outside of court....So if the case has made it all the way to court, that should immediately raise a red flag that this is not simply a case of 2 normal people who are simply in a "high conflict" case, especially if there are claims of abuse. Until good evidence is presented showing otherwise, there should immediately be a presumption that there is an abusive, or coercive dynamic at play. ESPECIALLY if the party being accused of abuse has way more money than the accusing party (they can coercively use the court system and litigation to bleed the victim dry). Yet, judges and parenting coordinators don't really look beyond the surface level to see whether the child actually has a legitimate reason to reject one parent over the other(such as in abuse cases). They usually don't interview the child, or even the child's extended family. They don't look at how the child's dynamic is with each respective parent either.
Furthermore, consider this thought experiment: If a child has a good relationship with 1 parent, and the other parent attempts to "alienate" or talk badly about that parent with no good reason...the far more likely outcome is that the child will rebel or reject the "alienating" narrative. Not be blindly brainwashed by the parent attempting to do the alienation. Children instinctually want to keep their family together and do not want to hear one parent badmouthing the other, especially if there really is no good reason...On the other hand, if a child IS rejecting a parent we should take that very seriously and assume that there is a good reason for this, and that it is not simply due to brainwashing by an "alienating" parent.
Speaking to that point further, we must take into account the cognitive ability required for a child to not only remember a complex web of lies fed to them by a coaching parent, but being able to repeat it accurately over and over. Alternatively, it does not take much cognitive effort for a child to recall actual abuse that occurred to them. We know that traumatic events have a way of being seared into memory, so if a child makes detailed disclosures we should almost never assume that the story has been fed to them by a "coaching" parent. In fact, studies show that children tend to DOWNPLAY the abuse that was done to them, not over exaggerate or hyperbolize it as so many judges and lawyers seem to think. If anything, when a child discloses we should assume the abuse they suffered was WORSE than what they are reporting.
Children are malleable but at the end of the day they are still individuals who, even at a very young age, intuitively understand when something is being done to them that is bad or good. If children were so easily brainwashed then parents wouldn't ever have issues getting them to go to bed on time, or eat their vegetables...But yet, we are somehow supposed to believe that a child rejecting a parent is purely due to the seemingly omnipotent brainwashing effect of an "alienating" parent. Complete nonsense. The PA argument simply allows actual abusers to turn the tables on their victims in court
@@ultimate8550 You're right. The entire court system needs to be redone (especially father's rights) but you have also given some great ideas how we might go about it. Sadly, we're only 2 people.
I remember my dad lying about my mom, saying, “she’s the crazy one.” “It’s nice get out of the house to get away from her.” And other horrible things like that. Unfortunately, my parents are still together and I wish my parents would split up. My mom can meet someone more compassionate, patient, understanding and empathic than my “dad”. But, like my therapist said, I need to stay in my lane.
Anthony Ramirez Sad to hear i can relate i had a really shitty father.
I would let her know that you hope they are not staying together for your sake, and leave it at that.
Tell her or write her a note (a real paper one) & tell her that. My son has gone through something similar (I’m the targeted Mum) with my ex. I’m sure it wld hve helped him wth some of the issues that he’s now having as a result of this.
And yes, it can happen in intact families as well, my Mum did it with me against my Father, then got really revengeful when I worked it out & confronted her.
Get help wth counselling, it makes a big difference.
If staying in your lane means driving with a huge cautionary state of mind and developing an awareness of assessing parental behaviour just to keep peace, I’d be looking for new roads to travel! Take care of you first...I suggest to try other therapist if it’s within your capacity or do more research into narcissism and parental alienation.
Yea your therapist right man. Its clearly not your business. And this topic has nothing to do with you
If you lie about a fire in a movie theater you go to jail. If you lie in domestic court, about the parent being a drug addled alcoholic who is abusive to everyone (clearly showing one parent cares more about their ego & lies then the well being of their kids)..you get whatever you want...no consequences.
This is and has always been child abuse.
💯
No actually if you claim fire in a movie theater you don't go to jail. I don't know why people think that. You can go to any crowded movie theater and go fire fire fire fire and you're not going to go to jail for that. Not in Canada. Not in the United States and not in the UK. Not in France not in Germany, not Switzerland. That's not true.
Also really great studies done by a lot of really reputable institutions on parental alienation being used as defense in court. And 92% of the time It is used in court. It is used by the abusive parent saying that the non-abuse apparent is using parental alienation against them. Meaning that the child claims of abuse are not believed. In fact, in the states they have reunification camps that are just the brand new version of conversion therapy camps. They're horrendous and there child abuse.
Also, any doctor worth their saw who treats a child who has supper not parental alienation because nobody even agrees if that exists, but coercive control from a parent. Would not force reunification. Because that is further traumatizing the child.
My abusive father tried this with me. I know what I'm talking about. I've seen children be subjugated to this stupid claim that people don't f****** understand.
The problem is is it's really hard to prove that it's parental alienation and not actually an abusive parent. That's why when research is done and followed up on these cases 92% of the time, it was the abuse of parents using it as an excuse to excuse their abusive behavior towards the child and blame the other parent. The lack of understanding is just amazing.
@@LLandS18 not hard at all, it is after all a court. Words are suppose to matter & there be accountability. In my case, the ex not only was clinically diagnosed cluster b, be treated for cluster b, spoke openly to many including the court her goals of never allowing the kids to know me, and I was the unemployed primary care giver of the kids.
The problem is a county government that faces zero legal accountability for any of their actions, removed my kids because of a picture of an 1891 winchester hanging on the wall, held kids hostage to demand evidence (clean toe nails, finger nails urine), the court awarded me spousal support, but rather than reuniting me with the kids, stripped me of my attorney, reversed the spousal support, made up an income, and ordered me to pay....the crimes simply kee0 going.
@@JimKJeffries It's very very hard. Because overwhelmingly the people who use this defense are the abuse of parent. And the behavior of a child that's being parentally alienated or a child that's being physically sexually and emotionally. Abused is very similar. And a lot of times they'll have the anger at the parent who isn't abusing them.
Wow! You're speaking of my charge again. No wonder she has BPD. Her parents were both like this. Amazing things you're bringing to light doctor. Thank you! 👍🌹
Everyone on my dad's side of the family accused my mother of doing this to me, and that's why I don't have a good relationship with my dad. My mom never spoke ill of my father, but I disliked a lot of his behavior. He was so misogynistic. He was physically abusive to my mother. He kept manipulating high school girls to sleep with him. My mom was 15 when she started dating him while he was in his 30's. He went years with no contact, and the first thing he said when he saw me was that he'd love me a lot more if I weighed less. I take care of him now because he has stage 4 brain cancer, and that's only because my mom worries about him. She's a lot more forgiving than I am.
Parental alienation using an Attachment based model is very clear cut proving PA with which a proper diagnosis is CHILD PSYCHOLOGICAL ABUSE
Wow you are an angel. Why?
This is why parental alienation is tricky. Cause in family court, they can potentially accuse your mom of parental alienation. My ex physically abused me, never developed a relationship with our infant son and would do things like not help out with caring for the baby at all, prevent me from breastfeeding the baby and make me listen to the baby crying to be comforted and fed. I had to leave and ended up filing and getting a restraining order against him for domestic abuse. He has basically abandoned his son and has had zero contact with him since the trial ended. Sometimes abuse allegations are real. Sometimes kids do not bond with a parent if they do not feel safe. Sometimes mothers actually do try to protect their children. Family courts be very careful in evaluating these accusations because they may end up hurting the children they are trying to protect. Just ask the kids that were allowed visitations in domestic abuse cases that were killed by their fathers.
My 3 children were alienated from me after divorce by their malignant narcissist dad and his new wife. Two years after the separation and just after his remarriage with his mistress he started abduct our sons from school and I was searching for them like crazy everywhere. He brought them mobile phones and called them so many times every day, forcing them to spy on me, to tell him everything that was going on in my house. He told them that I was an awful mother, they must not obey me and they should try to run away from my home in every occasion. He pressurised them daily incessantly, when they obeyed him, they were loved and rewarded by their dad, if not they weren't. This narcissist kidnapping my children or forcing them to run away almost every week for 2 years made me really sick, I had heart arrhythmia. I asked for help from Justice. But the Judge decided to give the custody of my two 12 and 11 years old sons to their dad because my sons were behaving horribly with me, not obeying, running away, falsely reporting me to the police following the direct orders of their narcissistic revengeful dad. I was totally heartbroken!!! I was left with my third son of 4 years who cried horribly and rejected me violently every time he saw his father, but when he was alone with me he was loving and cuddling to me. At 4 years old, my poor baby replied to my question of why he doesn't say to his father that he loves his mother too (all three of my sons were forced to reject me and call their stepmother "mommy"), "Mommy, if I say to my father that I love you, he will never take me to his home again!". My poor little son already understood the consequences if he doesn't obey the orders of his father. My 3 children were highly congratulated, rewarded with toys, pocket money, McDonald's lunches, kompyuter, etc. for rejecting me, for showing love and calling mommy to their stepmother. And horribly enough, they were denied love, gifts, etc if they didn't reject me enough. They stopped saying me hello when seeing me outside, they were so afraid of physically touching me when their father was near and watching. I could kiss them only when they were alone with me in my apartment. My older 2 sons stayed with their father for years until I could take back their custody. During those 4 years every 2 weeks, when it was my turn to take them to my home, the narcissist didn't let them go without forcing me waiting many hours at his door. I suffered narcissistic abuse for 9 years of marriage, and 8 years after the divorce too because he used our children like a true weapon to continue to hurt me as usual. Now my children live with me, but we are all traumatized, especially me, I have a deep trauma that I am trying to overcome daily. My religion saved me and guided me throughout years. I am sure this evil narcissist cannot escape the consequences of his acts, I understand perfectly why Allah created the Hellfire, and said in his holy Book Quran that if God shows mercy and take some people out of the Hell, these people would again go back to their ancient sins, they would never sincerely repent and change themselves. I understood that eternal Hellfire is for narcissistic people who will never change and deserve the punishment for what they did to other people.
Or when narcissists decide to "cut all contact from you" and cut you off from their love because you aren't doing what they want and aren't allowing yourself to be easily controlled by them, that can force some narcisstic parents to alienate their children for sure. My parents did that to me just because I chose to get therapy for their abuse (even though they told me to get therapy all the time) when I actually did and started listening to the advice of their therapist, they were pissed! My mom especially behaves in this way. It hurts a lot but I'm hanging in there and trauma therapy is helping a ton.
Same boat.
Same here
I am alienated from my kids and I am worried about my children. Thank you for making this.
Sorry to hear sending strength and hugs.
I'm also going thru this. In my case, it has gone so far that my daughter is seeing a counselor who claims she is traumatized bc of me. The counselor sent a request to the court to temporarily suspend my visitation rights, this was over 4 years ago. I've had no contact with her at all in over 4 years and I have filed for visitation 6 times. I usually go to court to plead my case about every 3-4 months. I know she's being alienated from me, I think everyone knows, the judge, the guardian ad lidem, everyone involved in my case knows it but nobody is taking my concerns seriously...
P.A.S. In respect of one parent using the child against the other in effect “weaponising” the child against. The trouble with PAS is it was poorly used by “experts” in legal cases. Should it be classified as a thing? No it should not it should be called by a more appropriate title “Child Abuse”👍
bodge6886 I agree. Its child abuse.
I agree that it’s child abuse 👍
@George V are you for real? Is that a poe?
@George V you must know perfectly well what real people are like, male or female. Who taught you about gender stereotypes and why did you buy into it, why don't you question that a little more?
@George V aaah so you meant it SARCASTICALLY.... well, then, I guess it's okay, then.
This video provides a huge amount of valuable info on parental alienation. It amazes me the way Dr. Grande packs so much cogent material into a 13 minute video. Thanks for doing all the hard work to make this presentation possible.
Parental alienation is a very real problem that can bring drastic emotional harm to all children involved 🥺 Personally, my father was the one attempting to break my positive relationship with my mom, but I do understand that both parents can engage is behavior at the same time as well. Very sad...
Marlina Dykema yep going through this right now...
I absolutely love how your videos are just so consistently well-researched, informative and entertaining all at once. Top grade content, Dr.Grande! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts, knowledge and expertise with us.
Valeria Vagapova he is truly great. One of the real gems on yt.
I would like more entertainment, please. Bad puns, etc. But I will keep listening, if it is not forthcoming.
Thank you I am sharing this WIDELY on at least 30 Facebook pages!
My ex wife was a super severe level...making up accusations of child abuse by causing a bruise on our child, taking a picture and blaming me for child abuse...or telling the kids that i didnt wantbto be their father, i threw away all their toys, i dont pay child support to help with food, etc...luckily, after a 4 year battle i got guardianship of my kids and raised them the right way....
Thank you !!! I recently heard a podcast featuring one of these professionals who claimed that parental alienation does not exist. As a child of divorce in 1970 I can ASSURE YOU it bloody does. Because I empathized more with my father against the blistering attacks of my mother, I was constantly belittled and could never do anything right ,(in her eyes), from that time forward. It still mildly effects me today. Sadly some doctors , (esp. mental health professionals ) change their outlooks about as quick as the seasonal fashions saying " We don't do that anymore." The excuse for all misbehavior and bad diagnosis. I respond... "Do you do it any less???" I don't always respond but I always appreciate your show. Thank you again!😆
Thank you, Dr. Grande. I can tell you from personal experience that Parental Alienation is real. It is heartbreaking beyond anything that I have ever experienced. I believe that PA is child abuse. The alienating ex spouse is so evil and intent on hurting the other parent, that they will do anything to get back at them. It is very difficult to prove in court and our judicial systems are not equipped to handle these types of problems. My child has been brain washed and may never understand. Unless the alienated parent is truly neglectful or abusive, children need both parents in their lives.
The worst part is for me, that I’ll always despise my mom, despite her never even talking about my father. He uses this ^ explanation all the time - that my mother’s the one who made me refuse to go see him every other weekend at times. Truth is as a kid I just couldn’t take the idea of having to listen to all his sick stories about my mom on the way to his house. I still hate my mom more than my father tho, pretty insane.
Also it is good that this isn’t used in court.
The oppositional behavior in the child you described with regards to the victim-parent, is behavior I personally exhibited with both my parents at different times. Catch it at the wrong time & you might lock up an innocent parent.
Idk man - one of the greatest tragedies of Parental Alienation, is that even when many of these alienated children eventually come to the horrible realisation that they've been brainwashed by the alienating parent to falsely believe that their other parent is 'this bad thing' or 'that bad thing', has 'done terrible things to the alienating parent', is a 'horrible human being', etc.... that even after that, for many of these children those hostile feelings towards the non-alienating parent have become so ingrained that they CANNOT CHANGE THEM.
Turning a child against a 'normal range' parent is one of the most horrific types of abuse that one can inflict on a child - we are all one half our mother, and one half our father..... and when we are turned against one of our parents, and taught to hate them, we are in effect turning against and hating one half of ourselves. But perhaps worst of all, is that children who have been turned against one of their parents in this way by their other parent have been denied one of the most precious gifts of life: the experience of 'childhood innocence'. This is truly truly tragic....
P.S. Parents who alienate their children from the children's other parent almost ALWAYS have a 'Cluster B' personality disorder, usually either Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) or Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD). And an alienating father is more likely to have NPD than to have BPD, and an alienating mother is more likely to have BPD than to have NPD. This has significance, because NPD is considered to be pretty much untreatable. But BPD is TREATABLE. And so, if the alienating parent has BPD, at least it's possible for that parent to get treatment/therapy to stop that parent's alienating behaviors. The same is not usually possible in the case of NPD parents.
@@beautifuldayzee5942 you nailed that one!
Wait, your father was the toxic parent, your mother took you away from him for your protection, yet you hate her over him - sounds like Stockholm syndrome to me. Your mother deserves better..
My heart breaks for you and your mum 💔 she didn't talk about him because she loves you and doesn't want to hurt you anymore. It's so hard for me as a mother to think that even if my daughter wakes up to the truth one day that it won't heal our relationship because the hate has been that deeply ingrained. I pray that one day you will feel that bond with her that you had before that happened and you can both heal.
This is really interesting. I didn’t experience this, but have empathy for people that did (or are.) My parents stuck together in their dysfunctional codependent marriage and were ‘a real solid team’ when it came to targeting their children. (Criticism and humiliation, and worse) One...the matriarchal ‘vulnerable covert’ narcissist...the other the flying agent enabler. The facilitator. They are equally as bad. Both damaging and abusive. I’m isolated and alone but healing. And love to anyone healing from PAS. ❤️
Thanks Dr. Grande.
👍🇬🇧
This is exactly the set up that I grew up in and went on after I left home, in fact u til recently when at the age of 57 I finally went no contact. They did so much damage and continued to do so.
Yvonukon wow. It’s never too late to have peace of mind and self love. It’s been a battle all my life. Your life has been highjacked the way mine was. So now live true to yourself, it’s not easy I know. The healing is a process and doesn’t happen overnight. We can’t suddenly switch off to a life time of abuse and dysfunction. I’ve accepted it may take till I’m dead to feel true peace. Sorry if that sounds negative, it’s not. It’s realistic. And that’s the sadness. The good/amazing/positive is...many people go to the grave wounded and confused. Their WHOLE life robbed...YOU WON’T. Be proud you’ve made the conscious decision to say NO to this relentless repetition that you didn’t choose for yourself. TOXIC. You were bullied and conditioned,I know I was. There is a voice inside you that has been silenced for so long...but you listened to it. Brilliant! That’s your soul and authentic self that’s been suffocated for so long. Hear it every day! 😊 your vibration will lift once you forgive yourself and accept that it was not your fault. It shows real strength to have tolerated what you have. We can’t change the past, only the present moment and our future. It’s a daily struggle for me and a mental battle so I understand. I survived a serious suicide attempt, not a cry for help. I was systematically broken down to nothing. But ‘nothing’ somehow is still living and breathing and I’m now something. A good something 😊 yes messed up...damaged...but finally getting pleasure from the little things in life I had dissociated from, since a child to survive. (So very disconnected for 43 years) but ultimately I have freedom (and that is scary when you’ve been controlled and ‘Stockholm Syndromed’ all your life) but it’s an incredible feeling you cannot quantify. 🥰🌈 you are a LION! Don’t forget that! You are your own leader. Never doubt yourself and NEVER go back. Never. You have left that cage FOREVER! Courage is an understatement. I don’t know you but I’d give you the biggest high five if I could! 💪
Take care and be happy. ❤️🇬🇧
Kevin Hornbuckle god bless you yes. Thank you for asking. It’s isn’t so black and white as I’ve been targeted and I’m the black sheep defector. I’m surrounded by my siblings that are flying agents. It’s hard, and lonely. But I was living someone else’s dysfunctional life. Pleasing an insatiable covert malignant gaslighting narcissist. It’s over. Now I’m loving my own. I feel like a child that’s just been born. Sounds weird but I’m trying to ‘unlearn’ all the negative conditioning which became my entrenched self sabotaging warped belief system. I live hour by hour. My mind is programmed to tell me I’m a waste of space and a failure. I’m not. I’ve realised that’s what the narc believes of herself so PROJECTS it onto her produce: her children. It’s very sad really, and I tried so hard to be compassionate and accommodating. But no. This individual takes pleasure in another’s pain and it has become her hobby in life. I was a pawn in this game. But game over for me. I’ve suffered enough. My father (enabler) went to an early grave. It was devastating. But he married her, I didn’t. It was not my choice. Now I have choices and I choose peace and safety. Life is too short! We can only save ourselves. When it gets to ‘live or die’ it gets easier to come to terms with. I’ll never see them again and I’m changing my name by deedpole. Some women flee and abusive intimate relationship....
I’m fleeing something worse.
One time I had murderous vengeful thoughts, more out of trying to protect my brother. But then the narc would win: locked in another cage.
The best revenge/justice is to break free and find some level of peace. 😊
I love Dr.Grande’s channel ❤️🇬🇧
Me,too. My mother, the Magnificent Narcissist and my Father, the Enabler. This has been a lifelong struggle for me and my Mother is mad at me and my Father told me that if she doesn’t want me in her life, that he doesn’t either. She’s accusing me of things that did not happen, but she’s also accusing my Father of things that did not happen, as well. You think he would understand how awful it feels. No, it doesn’t matter to him, only my Mother’s happiness matters to him. 😢 i used to think that he was the best person around…in the last few years, i am seeing a whole other side of him that i was blindsided by.
Thank you, i am a Father going through this, its frustrating how this isnt recognised
First of all, thank you for making this video. It's hard to describe how painful and how devastating this is to parents and children. It's also hard to believe how broken the legal system is and how corrupt judges are. I have spent 7 years trying to have a relationship with my children and have failed. Systematic extreme parental alienation has been ignored by the legal system even when my ex has been found in contempt over a hundred times.
My ex is a broken person, she's a product of child abuse and angry narcissistic parents. Ultimately she is to blame but it's hard to hate someone so broken. On the other hand the legal system just wants money and doesn't care if they make more broken children. I will continue to fight for my children until the youngest reaches emancipation. Then I will do whatever is within my grasp to create a relationship with my children.
My hope is that some politician reads this and is able to force the courts to use the psychologist and people that are trained at identified such hurtful bad behavior.
I love your videos man! , maybe you could do more surveys about the topic to be analized. Anyhow your material is pure gold. Thank you!🇨🇱
That's why I say "I went through my parents' divorce" instead of "my parents had a divorce." It was not a simple incident that changed my lifestyle but rather a process that all of us walked together. Even with extra supports and love from my extended family members, I felt very powerless and lonely during my preteen and teenage years. Unfortunately parents can be very self-involved during divorce.. I'm a mental health care for youth now:). Very rewarding path for me.
This is a typical description of PAS and while it contains some truths the fact that it leaves so much out makes this a dangerous assessment indeed. PAS alway involves one parent that is personality disordered and where they are on the spectrum determines the level of severity of the PA. It does not only involve custody disputes, far from it. A large % of custody disputes involve personality disordered individuals so that is an obvious subset of PA cases. It also does not center around custody but on using the child to destroy the other parent. Part of this destruction includes destroying the children as well. The child(ren) always has some sort of attachment disorder to the alienating parent, so the child is anxious to resolve these attachment issues and will do anything to please this alienating parent. This is profoundly abusive behavior and creates psychopaths of the children. The courts almost always give the children to this abusive parent. This is not difficult to diagnose.
I also want to add it is an absolute mistake to take the “high road” or ignore the situation. It is often impossible to know this is happening as the target parent is kept in the dark, the children are sworn to secrecy etc... but this is way too much for a child to cope with and they must be given tools.
YES, exactly, spot on! Most people commenting here have completely misunderstood the concept of 'Parental Alienation' . That's not surprising though, just think how long it took most of us alienated parents to discover and understand (get our heads around!) that 'concept'. And too, rarely is it mentioned that parental alienation does not only involve custody disputes! Parental Alienation is not a custody issue, it's a cluster b (narcissist and/or borderline) personality disorder and attachment disorder issue
Finally someone that gets it. PA is not about turning the child on the parent. Actually the targeted parent tries to make the child know that they are being victimized. The alienating parent is using the child as a weapon to destroy the targeted parent. I either the people who post this false information about PA are covert narcissists, or they are have no idea what they are talking about and need to keep their mouths shut because they are helping these criminals.
@@captains5182 I liked this guy at first but he’s exposed himself to be a malignant narcissist himself. He’s doing a lot of damage. Partial truths are deceit and the worst deceit. Propaganda isn’t so much about what is said but what is left out.
I would like to see a video on child rejection of a parent and the other parent who may be encouraging it. And perhaps a follow up on the importance of the rejected parent actually having a relationship with the child.
I am a victim of parental alienation. My ex wife was able to ruin the relationship between me and my daughter. But she was unable to do the same with my father because my daughter loved him. So what my ex wife did? She accused him of molesting my daughter. Now we lost all contact with her. This is so sad. Sorry about my English.
Absolutely brilliant insight. Parental alienation happens more than we think and the alienated parent gets no support. It is devastating for the entire family, really.
When my kid used to come home from her dad’s house she would talk about how much she dislikes him and I’d tell her to be nice and try to spin things a little bit to make him seem better than he is; but as she’s gotten older and she does it I just apologize for her having to go through stuff she doesn’t like. She’s old enough now to understand that he’s a self centered douche who cares more about controlling her (and I) then loving her. If I try to spin things nicely she looks at me like I’m wearing a tea cozy on my head. After he got her a puppy and then got rid of it behind her back there’s no, “nice,” leg to stand on 😖
Be aware parental alienation occurs not just between mother, father and child. Grandparents, family, CPS or anyone that undermines paternal and maternal rights alienate parents. Grandparents and government often undermine a parent's ability to parent effectively just as much as a toxic relationship. No one condones a toxic couple and all will seek to end it. This may not be wise always. Children need to see their toxic parents forgive and reconcile in order to learn themselves how to grow from negative experiences.
A diagnosis already exists - it's called TSD... traumatic stress disorder. I left off the "P" because for many it's not "Post" and may never be. There's also depression, identity and attachment disorders, personality disorders... the list goes on. Some people will never be safe parents, but most seem to be. This is cruelty, brutality, far worse than the word "abuse" can describe. Keep in mind that forced family separation, aka forced adoption by removing children from capable parents, is the ultimate form of PA, yet few people ask, "Where do adoptees come from?" Consider also those whose children are abuducted - the trauma is massive. What's the difference with PA? My heart goes out to all the unnecessarily alienated & genuine parents and the children.
Gigi BTSurvivor's comment below has a valid point about the abuser/narcissist often deceives everyone & gets the children, so some parents are forced to "alienate" to save their children. It's a messy situation.
This is an epidemic, for 2 years I asked every person if they have, or knew of anyone who was experiencing this, every single person did...
Thank you for bringing the topic into light, Dr. Grande!! In a troubled relationship, the sad reality is that very often than not, involving many family members, not only the children. P.A.S is one of the logical consequences of the difficult situation the children have to face, with limited comprehension when they are young, and the carry over of the sadness into later stages. The absence of problems parents don't help them to get the perspective as what exactly happened, happen at present and what is going to happen. Some people just too egoistical to take up the responsibility of becoming parents. Not to mention those with NPD yet😬 Again, thank you, Doc and have a nice Sunday and God bless🙏🤞
Dr Grande, I feel like my husband has done this to my children by grooming them... Suddenly my children began lying and not trusting me..it worried me but I never understood what was happening until a CPS worker came to my door!!! My children and I had strong emotional bonds...I'm sick because there was no divorce until now.... I know now I am with a narcissist.....now I have to give up my home to get my child because I have been lied to by this man....
I’m in same boat.
Don’t worry about ‘things’ save your children. It will only get worse if you don’t get out.. from someone who has ‘lost their only child now adult to the mental emotional subtle snd consistent brainwashing that eroded my relationship with my son. Its slow insidious and powerful. I barely saw it when I was in it but the impact has been absolutely overwhelming
I appreciate the thoughtful way you laid out parental alienation, it's such a fraught topic.
The principal communication between parent and child regarding the absent parent may not be verbal. I think that the attitude and fears conveyed simply by tone of voice or physical stance etc can be very powerful.
This is so interesting. I just started to learn about this idea a couple of months ago. It seems like it should be important to acknowledge because it does happen where children are abuse and manipulated. It could be considered a V code or in the area for types of suspected/confirmed child abuse. Or look into it as a syndrome. But then again, it could be just aspects of narcissism/dark triad. Ugh there is so much that needs to be updated on the next DSM.
If I could offer an alternative take...The real problem is that the court system has way too many false positive identifications of parental alienation...That is not to say that parents cannot participate in alienating behaviors, which obviously should be discouraged assuming there is not abuse going on. But there is a major gender bias in how it is actually wielded in court. Most cases where it is successfully invoked, it is essentially a "get out of jail free" card for abusive fathers to discredit legitimate claims of abuse from a protective mother. Studies more or less back this up: Fathers invoking PA as a cross-claim against a mother makes them 2 to 6 times as likely to win their case, but the same effect is not observed when mothers invoke it against a father. This outcome is unaltered EVEN IF the father already has a proven history of spousal violence! Complete madness.
CPS data shows that even in the context of contentious custody disputes, false claims of abuse are no more common than in the general population. False abuse allegations represent something like 2-6% of cases, so by the numbers if someone is accusing the other party of abuse it is almost certainly a legitimate claim, even if it is later "unsubstantiated" by CPS(that is a whole other can of worms, CPS's criteria for substantiating an abuse claim is so ludicrous, the child has to essentially already be halfway dead- broken bones, repeated trips to the hospital, etc.) . It's also worth noting that in most cases the court does not draw a distinction between "deliberately false" and "unsubstantiated" claims even though they are not at all the same thing. This almost always helps the abuser and hurts the victim in a court setting.
You also have to consider the fact that something like 90% of custody disputes are solved outside of court....So if the case has made it all the way to court, that should immediately raise a red flag that this is not simply a case of 2 normal people who are simply in a "high conflict" case, especially if there are claims of abuse. Until good evidence is presented showing otherwise, there should immediately be a presumption that there is an abusive, or coercive dynamic at play. ESPECIALLY if the party being accused of abuse has way more money than the accusing party (they can coercively use the court system and litigation to bleed the victim dry). Yet, judges and parenting coordinators don't really look beyond the surface level to see whether the child actually has a legitimate reason to reject one parent over the other(such as in abuse cases). They usually don't interview the child, or even the child's extended family. They don't look at how the child's dynamic is with each respective parent either.
Furthermore, consider this thought experiment: If a child has a good relationship with 1 parent, and the other parent attempts to "alienate" or talk badly about that parent with no good reason...the far more likely outcome is that the child will rebel or reject the "alienating" narrative. Not be blindly brainwashed by the parent attempting to do the alienation. Children instinctually want to keep their family together and do not want to hear one parent badmouthing the other, especially if there really is no good reason...On the other hand, if a child IS rejecting a parent we should take that very seriously and assume that there is a good reason for this, and that it is not simply due to brainwashing by an "alienating" parent.
Speaking to that point further, we must take into account the cognitive ability required for a child to not only remember a complex web of lies fed to them by a coaching parent, but being able to repeat it accurately over and over. Alternatively, it does not take much cognitive effort for a child to recall actual abuse that occurred to them. We know that traumatic events have a way of being seared into memory, so if a child makes detailed disclosures we should almost never assume that the story has been fed to them by a "coaching" parent. In fact, studies show that children tend to DOWNPLAY the abuse that was done to them, not over exaggerate or hyperbolize it as so many judges and lawyers seem to think. If anything, when a child discloses we should assume the abuse they suffered was WORSE than what they are reporting.
Children are malleable but at the end of the day they are still individuals who, even at a very young age, intuitively understand when something is being done to them that is bad or good. If children were so easily brainwashed then parents wouldn't ever have issues getting them to go to bed on time, or eat their vegetables...But yet, we are somehow supposed to believe that a child rejecting a parent is purely due to the seemingly omnipotent brainwashing effect of an "alienating" parent. Complete nonsense. The PA argument simply allows actual abusers to turn the tables on their victims in court. This largely explains its absence from the DSM...most professionals realize that "Parental Alienation" is a cheap litigation tactic, not a real psychological condition. And that more often than not, it is used to silence the real victims of abuse.
I work in court and I hear about this a lot, it’s really depressing and upsetting.
Gooday Dr. Grande . wow is all I can say , for you .
I am more a minister for the gruffer crowd . But every video of yours I watch helps me dig to the core of myself , while giving me a better understanding of everyone in life .
The mind and soul is so complex .
I can't ever really be lied to cause I sense things , but the way people fool us ,, or try too still amazes me .
Or if it is a mental physical thing combined ,, I always wonder what happened , or want too .
Let me give you an example , or two brief . My adopted Mom got hit by a car at 4 , right front lobe damage . With a very cold personality . I saw three generations of men , hit the other in the same spot , for that reason , right frontal lobe damage . The spot we need to care for others . I have many more observations , but these are my thoughts on this . Thank you , God bless your weekend .
How sad :-(, when I divorced my kid's dad it never even crossed my mind to do this. I'm gone so far as flying him out to see his kids. I let the kids make up their own minds when they were 18. Thanks for the video I always wondered why people do this. I'm glad you said unmitigated because I do know people that the other parent has been a serious crime and that is a little in my mind
I shared this with my daughter who works with kids that have parents that are over see you serving in the military oh, she found it very informative
My kid just told me he hates me and "feels like a prisoner" on visits because I'm a "bad wife" and "nothing but a tease". How in the hell is a 7 year old saying that. 😡
Once again, another fantastic video. These really resonate with me as I grew up with two PD parents in an abusive household.
I’d like to ask if you’d be willing to do a video discussing Covert/Emotional Incest (enmeshment). It’s something that’s not discussed enough as it feels quite “icky” to talk about but it’s so, so important. It’s something that has effected me deeply and I’m sure others could benefit from knowing about it!
Thank you so much for this clear information. Can you please make another video about this topic how to talk/deal with your child to give them strength and mental protection when this is happening? Thank you
Because my mother was pregnant with me when my parents divorced and she was so resentful and filled with a hatred towards him I believe mostly because my older siblings adored him she wanted to make sure that I wouldn't so I would only love her that she would tell me horrific stories about him when I was around possibly as young 3 years old that traumatized me to the point that every time my father picked us up for visits I would run really high fevers and he would have to bring me home. She told me that while pregnant with me my father started beating her trying to kill me and she had to curl up in a ball to protect me so I believed that he was going to kill me and I was terrified of him, there were several other stories that a child has no business hearing so she succeeded in her mission, I longed for the love that I witnessed between my 3 siblings and my 3 step siblings but never me and I began believing that I must be broken and unlovable so as I continued to be told stories about him over the years I was a depressed and angry child, when my siblings got to the age that he no longer needed to pick them up he just stopped coming at all, I was only 11 years old. My hurt turned into a deep anger towards him for so many years. At 24 years old I was already divorced with a 3 year old son when I remarried what I now know, an extremely intelligent, controlling narcissistic man and had 2 more children, he was so emotionally and mentally abusive to myself and my oldest son and then 21 months later I became disposable after he met someone else and one day he literally grabbed my 2 year old son and 10 month old daughter went into the house and locked me out along with my oldest son and I instantly knew he wasn't going to allow me to take them so I called for police assistance and that's when I learned that him and his mother had been planning this because when the officer got there they had an attorney on the phone waiting to speak to the officer, they lied and said that I had tried to commit suicide while my children were in another room and when the officer told me that I had to leave the premises without my children who had never been apart from me I began crying uncontrollably and hysterically, wasn't able to see them for two weeks at this point but it felt like a lifetime. I thought that I was going to die from a broken heart, every night when I would lay down the pain was so unbearable that I was still crying hysterically every day and night but I didn't know that that was just the beginning because I somehow became someone he hated so much and needed to be destroyed and he used my children as weapons constantly and him and his flying monkeys started their smear campaign against me painting me out as this neglectful person and mother especially to my children. My son absolutely adored me but whenever he would cry for me my sweet little 2 year old baby would be punished and made to do military calisthenics. My ex was able to brainwash my daughter but never my son so he was often physically, mentally and emotionally abused by him. My son is now 26 years old and in the last year and a half he has attempted suicide, my daughter is 25 years old diagnosed as both bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorder and she drinks every night while taking lithium and frequently calls me at 3 am sobbing in so much mental and emotional pain that 3 months ago after we had already been talking for at least an hour and a half she suddenly says I'm going to go now and I took a bunch of pills earlier, I live an hour away from her so I had to get through 3 separate police dispatchers before I could even drive to her. I sat there with her for 12 hours watching her vital signs plummet extremely low and then they would raise extremely high and I didn't know if she was going to survive but thank the Lord she did. Two generations of extreme parental alienation destroyed my family's lives and many, many other families out there but yet the courts refuse to acknowledge the destruction of all of these alienated parents and children's lives causing many of them to commit suicide and it never ends even after the reunification.
Idea for a video: talk about the “mama’s boy” phenomenon. Enmeshment etc with family of origin. Why does it happen? Is it correlated with other variables/experiences? What’s the family systems perspective vs the psychodynamic or cog-beh perspective? What can be done about it?
I am aware of a particular phenomenon with regard to this, and am curious about your (and others') thoughts.... In a family undergoing divorce with older kids and/or teens, the kids are (much more often than "system" adults usually recognize!) very aware of the dynamics between their parents, and of each parent's limitations and strengths.
When one parent is clearly more unstable than the other, and kids are observing his/her controlling behaviors and trying to avoid being in an unsafe environment or situation with that parent, the other parent is in the unenviable position of having to try not to "poison the well" against the unstable partner, while at the same time advocating for his/her kids' "safety & sanity" (2d-order basic attachment needs, in my own model).
They find themselves trying to affirm their children's fears and perceptions without bad-mouthing the partner, and trying to be charitable (towards someone who may have betrayed them or been quite destructive) and still honest.
Bottom line -- this is quite a conundrum! Thank God for guardians ad litem and faith communities.... 🙏🥴
I've got this with my wife so actually tell my son the back off and observe her level of anger or craziness as it rises and subsides.. trying to mire train him in observing the sign and symptoms to keep safe.. the at the same time recognise how he feels. The principle is respect has to be earned and if shes lost it and treating him or me badly to deal and manage the situation and keep safe. Then retrospective the feelings to decipher the crazy making and how we feel.
I think I identify with your situation. I’m not too sure about what you mean by the more unstable parent though. Not saying this happens in your situation but I think narcissists like to use the idea of an unstable parent and that often comes from the fact that the narcissist puts in zero effort to look after a child and plan for their future needs, happiness and success. If they do nothing, they’re not going to become frustrated. It’s not uncommon for the narcissist to realise that they don’t really do anything for the kids therefore there’s little to actually criticise in their parenting. Whereas for the parent who is caring for the child, it can be stressful parenting alone at times, especially when a child criticises you using words the narcissist gave them. When you look after a child you’re going to correct the child sometimes and get frustrated. Narcissists like to pretend this makes you a more unstable parent than them, because they need to find something to criticise, otherwise you’re just everything they pretend to be and that must hurt. I don’t think that’s what you were talking about though.
But I understand what you mean by protecting the child’s safety and sanity. When you want the best for a child you need them to be able to recognise physically and psychologically dangerous situations and make their own good choices. But then you want the best for your child, and that includes a good relationship with both parents. And it’s also difficult if the other parent tried to destroy you, knowing that you were the child’s support system and that the child would suffer and they just didn’t care what happened to the child as long as they caused maximum suffering to you.
My son is 10 years old and he sees his father every second weekend. I make sure he attends every time. I don’t say anything about his father. I tell my son three things though: 1) if you need to judge someone, pay attention to their actions, not their words, and do their words and actions match? 2) you can have a great relationship with someone who isn’t perfect. When you realise someone is not your role model, you can accept it and focus on appreciating the positive and fun traits they have and, 3) always stand up for yourself, make your own choices and make them good ones.
My narcissist had a tendency to make enemies and is clueless about avoiding dangerous situations, so there’s always a worry about my son’s physical safety, especially since he’s already had a brain injury due to his father absolutely ignoring the advice of everyone, including medical staff. But everything in life is a risk, so to have that relationship with his father, I guess we need to take that risk. His father’s family are also strangely cult-like and if you asked me who they worship, I’d say themselves as strange as that sounds. If my son were to become like this, like them, I think he’d be doomed to failure in many future relationships and jobs. So I avoid my son staying over.
Do they imply I’m an alienator? Yes, they do. They tell my son he should live with his superhero father. The kids is a high achiever and just became a school captain. I can’t imagine the devastation to his life if he did live with his father.
@m norton buswell Totally true. Huge contrast between a dad I know who has been supported (and his very harmful wife reached out to lovingly and appropriately, as well) in one tradition; and a mom I know who is running for her spiritual life as narcissistic dad makes the rounds of different independent churches all over town lying about her (and to himself, it seems) to gain allies -- and, frighteningly, finding many who are too naive, confused, or intimidated to confront him with the truth. Obviously, horrible for her and the kids that need protection from his predations, but also unloving to him, since he clearly needs help, as well -- or at least the possibility of it that God (always) offers....
It's amazing to me that Christian communities can fail to recognize that while God surely grieves the loss of marriages and family commitments, there are other things He might find disagreeable, as well! Duh. 🥴
@@chocolatejellybean2820 That's awesome. In a family with older kids, they are educating themselves about narcissism, in a family with younger ones, the stable parent explains that mom is very sick, and they all need to be compassionate and patient, but also honest (about the situation) and safe. It's amazing (frightening, tragic) how ubiquitous) this is.... 🙏 for you and yours....
@@chocolatejellybean2820 Also -- teaching your son the practice of maintaining a "witness perspective" as you described will serve him in every aspect of life -- every conflict or adverse experience. Creates space for critical thinking and measured response -- 2 things our society notably lacks! Way to go, dad! 😁
Thanks again for your interesting videos on these mental health topics . Dr. Grande you have alot very educational videos that are very appreciative .
What about when grandparents and other family members try to damage the relationship between the mother and her child?
Why don't you cover female parental alienation?
I haven’t realized it but this is what my mom did. I’m only realizing it at this moment.
I wonder about the question of the relative effects of genetics vs environment. The genetics effect obviously comes from your parents. Your parents are also the two people most likely to create your environment, especially in the formative years. This means that genetics has a strong influence on your environment. Therefore, the total effect of genetics on your personality is extremely high.
👍🏻 Video Dr. Grande. 😃 This is another new topic and subject I found very interesting.
Another great video Dr. Grande! Seriously had me remembering a lot of repressed memories from when my parents had shared custody when I grew up. Id say my experiences ranged from moderate to severe because they both manipulated me to think and act a certain way toward them and talked bad about each other whenever the other would contact. (Mom had majority of custody me and dad had visitation) It has greatly impacted my relationship with both of them and now I am not on speaking terms with either going on 3 yrs. Would/could you do a video expanding on the lasting effects of parental alienation? I am 29 now but had moved from the toxicity when I was 27 yrs old. I am still indifferent because the more overt parent (dad) still wants to try and have a relationship but his behavior doesn't reflect that. I really do miss them, Im just afraid of them manipulating me again or not accepting me as the adult I am now. Is there a way to move forward and reclaim our relationship?
@@brusselsprout5851 Thank you and I appreciate the support! I agree kids are very impressionable. I'm focused on unlearning all of their toxic traits. I also cannot wait for the next video, they're all insightful.
Move on they are the ones that are showing through their behaviour that they do not deserve your time. Have standards for who you have in your life family or not.
Look at their actions not their words.
So sorry for you! Every family situation is different.
From my experience in my birth family and with my own children, it takes BOTH parents wanting the best for their children.
So make sure to have children with someone who has the character to put the children's wellbeing first.
I am an alienated primary custody parent - I could have a better relationship with my kids, but only if I allowed myself to be treated like a doormat...the same baloney the toxic father pushed.
It is extremely sad (for me).
I pray that I have dreams of reuniting with my children before I sleep - and strangely enough, almost every night I do. :-).
PAS is very common with personality disordered individuals - one parent can ruin everything.
There is NO co-parenting with a sociopath or narcissist. The lawyers and courts only make things worse. I hung on for dear life, trying to show my children real love and a genuine "soul-filled" life. My children use the same gaslighting and scape-goating tactics as their father - (he might send them $$ in exchange for loyalty/abandoning me). When my kids were little, I would only allow my children to be real - as we boost ourselves when we are real. That meant countering their dads cruelty, while I tried to show them their strengths. But now, my adult children lie to themselves and also about others (this is pathology). Note: I am not saying you are lying to yourself!
If one parent is a sociopath/narcissistic personality disorder - should the other be walked on in order to 'keep the peace' indefinitely? What do we teach our sons and daughters? I chose to live by example and will not be a doormat - not even/especially for my children.
I am not saying that both of your parents are/are not disordered or did not try. I do not know them.
But just want to point out that one parent can railroad relationships.
I could be still with my children - but only IF I conformed to their father's rule.
(Their dad is a sociopath which is why I am on Dr. Grandes You Tube channel.)
Praying all children caught up in the pathology of dysfunctional relationships, know they do not deserve to be used to hurt another (child abuse!).
All the best to you!
@@jeanjohnson6443 I understand completely and yes I believe my parents are to a degree have some sort of a personality disorder. My father is Bipolar with psychotic tendencies and has PTSD from serving in the Army. My mom is the only one that goes undiagnosed she had endured domestic abuse while being with my father when he struggled with substance abuse. But from all the emotional dumping and verbal abuse it's an energy sucking vortex that my mind has a hard time getting out of. My mom hasn't reached out to me since the fall out, I have sent her and my step father a letter apologizing for my behavior and I thanked them for providing for me. Now it's resorted to low contact which is ok but I still struggle for that toxic hope that they will realize how much damage they inflicted on me growing up. I understand the frustration trying to co parent and still have sanity. Boundaries help so much with that. I really hope you reunite with your kids someday. Life is fleeting and we aren't guaranteed tomorrow. I don't like to stay stagnant because I've been indulging in self help and online forums to hopefully gain insight. Healing is not easy for me when I feel like I'm the only one doing it. The fact that you all understand is very validating but still highlights the nasty cycle of abuse that affects many families.
@@rebeccajimenez6109 It is comforting that people here understand. And it is difficult when you feel like you are the only one trying....I completely get all of it.
When I had my first child, I forgave my parents for all of their 'sins'. LOL. I realized how hard it is to raise children - my dad was also PTSD (Korean war).
Thank you for your nice words, and I am praying for all to have happy resolutions :-).
Interesting as always. Could you do a video about typical childhoods/parental methods that might lead to different personality disorders? I‘d be mostly interested about schizoid pd and how that would typically develop. Many thanks and greetings from Switzerland!
In switzerland there is a mum who have a blog and proudly said that she dont ask her kids or opinion and proudly alienate her kids from her dad and said tht is in the best interest of he child and ok. She identifies her motherhood with her gender discusting.
Yay! A new video!
EXCELLENT SUBJECT MATTER FOR A VIDEO!
Thanks again Dr Grande
My children's step father who is highly NPD have completely alienated my grown children (in their 30's) and they have completely cut me off possibly for the rest of my life. I'm not permitted to see my grandchildren. The npd stated 18 years ago during out courtship. I has a loving and caring relationship with my children. It is heart breaking.
Thank you for doing again an interesting video Dr. Grande 😃🇳🇱
Thank you for this video. It was incredibly validating. Thank you for delineating the difference between the debunked syndrome and Parental Alienating Behaviors. And also for highlighting the reality that manipulation and narcissism can be attributed to the parent alienating their children.
Sometimes there is more than one child. What if it is not the parents, but it is a sibling who influences a child's perspective of their parents?
My half-sister (same mother, different father), who is 10 yrs older than me, tried to alienate me from our mother, starting from when I was about 13 yrs old. She would speak badly about how our mother 'treated' me, constantly reminding me that my mother had slapped me once (I had called my mother 'bitch', and yes, she slapped me for it. That was only time my mother ever touched me!) Despite all my sister's efforts, she did not succeed in getting me to hate her..... however, for more than 40 years I walked around with a dark cloud following me, that I couldn't get rid of, and I never recognised the connection of that cloud with what my sister had been doing to my head..... that is, until I started doing searches on the internet, because of my narcissist ex-husband's behaviours (he was encouraging the children to hate me) which I was trying to figure out.... and that's when I learned about 'parental alienation'. And it was then that I realised that what my husband was doing to our kids was exactly what my sister had been doing to ME. And almost to the minute that I realised that, that I understood what my sister had been doing to me, that dark cloud that had been with me for 40+ years instantly lifted right off of me..... and it has never returned! (Note: I have not had any contact with my sister since..... she is 10 years older than me, but looks 10 years younger than me. Yea, apparently dark clouds hovering over you for 40 years doesn't have many positive 'beauty' benefits!)
(I found and watched your 11/10/18 interview with Meredith Miller on RUclips today, the one entitled "The Psychopath vs. The Sociopath," and I recommend it.
One layman's opinion: you really know your stuff. I'll watch it again later. Thanks.)
I recently watched a RUclipsrs video about picking up his 18 year old son from his ex wife's house. It was disturbing to me that he filmed this event. Seems like something that should have been kept private.
This occurs even when living with the narcissist parent, divorce is not a necessary component.
My mum did moderate parental alienation but she didn’t realise she was doing it & has since apologised for doing that to me. There was no custody dispute because my father had brain damage & couldn’t care for himself let alone a bunch of kids. His family of origin & mum (they never divorced so mum could make decisions for his medical care) agreed to place him in a really nice home with wonderful staff. Mum’s problem was that she was so ANGRY at having to do everything alone. She had 5 kids, a full time job & a man who was supposed to be her partner becoming like another child in the house but this one drained the bank account with his gambling addiction (something he had before the Encephalitis)... eventually you just have to realise that BOTH your parents are just humans who make mistakes & if you’re lucky, you can work through them to develop a close & loving relationship with both parents, if they’re still alive (It’s to work out your “daddy issues” if daddy died)
divide and ”conquer” in the manipulators sick mind. The ”win” in reality being a broken family.
My dads second wife did this to me.
Andreas Leon Landgren insecure women do this to the kids of their new husbands . Biatch sickos!
Exactly. No one wins in this game...!
This has happened so much in my Grandkids family I don’t know which kid belongs to whom. I’m like “is that the kid by the 3rd husband or the second or one of ours? What a horrid MESS she made of it.
During my custody battle I had so much evidence to show parental alienation but no one would listen to me. Not several lawyers, not the court...no one. The only court that backed me was district court where I got a harassment prevention order after I showed proof of harassment to the judge. Unfortunately that doesn't prove alienation and family court didn't care he was harassing me. 5 years later they both live with him and they refuse to talk to me. My ex also discourages they goto family therapy with me to work through everything. He intends they cut me out permanently while i pay him child support.
I'll ask again...how do you know that the defiant behavior isn't due to the fact that the child is being forced to spend time with someone who is abusing them? The 7 criteria you outlined are not great indicators of alienation, they could very well be signs of prolonged abuse...From the perspective of the protective parent, there is a difference between wanting to limit the custody time of an abusive partner due to very realistic fear of them harming your child....versus just trying to limit custodial time for no reason other than vengeance post separation. What I have witnessed in my own life is that the court does a TERRIBLE job of making this distinction...Taking steps to protect a child from harm, which would mean trying to limit custodial time, is not "alienation". The behavior might look similar, but surely you can acknowledge that the motivation for that behavior is coming from a different place than being vengeful. In the example you used, where the daughter is calling her mom and not listening to her father, or destroying items...how do you know its not because the father is actively abusing her? That would be a perfectly valid explanation for that behavior, especially if the daughter has previously made disclosures of abuse and is STILL being forced to spend unsupervised time with him. So why are you immediately blaming the other parent for "coaching" the child to behave that way? That is a dangerously misguided way to approach this issue, especially in cases where abuse has been alleged. There are tons of false positive identifications of alienation, that's the entire issue with the argument. I think you are downplaying this outcome way too much. I would be curious to see you comment on the work of Joan Meier, who produced a study basically showing what many of us always suspected...Namely, that fathers accused of abuse will use alienation as a cross claim against the mother in an attempt to make her look like the perpetrator. What Meier found is that mothers are somewhere between 2-6 times more likely to lose custody when facing an alienation cross claim. Most interestingly, this outcome was not observed in the reverse scenario - if Dad accused Mom of abuse, and then mom countered with a claim of alienation, fathers were no more likely to lose custody.
I have one parent bad talk another while the other didn't. I ended up having a more balanced approach mostly because the bad talk was never back up by the behavior I was seeing. Eventually, the parent doing the bad talking cut all ties with me. I really think I am better off.
Besides assigning blame to parents, from my experience, the Guardian ad litem, the court, the judge, the attorneys, et al., make custody disputes a "winner takes all" determination. They spew out of one side of their mouth "what's in the best interest of the children", while awarding 100% of custody to the mother. Children do best with both parents equally involved in their lives, yet custody is awarded almost always to the mother, and she is NEVER held accountable thereafter, not even to the court's order. The mothers bad mouth the father because she feels invincible, as though she is the "moral" parent, because she got custody. But she is NOT the moral parent, any more than a man is the moral parent. The decision to award custody is based entirely from a financial benefit. The court, the judge, and the municipality receive 3% matching dollars from the social security fund, so their decision is based entirely on who makes more money, THAT parent WILL NOT get custody. Furthermore, the courts will never enforce any action against the mother, only jail the father for "contempt", usually his crime being unable to pay the onerous child support if he falls ill or his company folds, downsizes, or cuts back. I have never in my life heard of a woman going to jail due to violating a family court order, EVER. The father, in the children's eyes, is viewed as contemptible because he is in such a position of weakness. Moms are awarded authority, which is a dad's God-given role, while dad can barely make ends meet financially, and mom will take him back to court time and time again, to enforce her dominance over him. So the courts are more responsible, in my opinion, in alienating children from their father for creating a winner takes all for mothers. Children lose out, and it creates a lot more resentment and tension between the parents than it would if 50-50 custody with no money extorted from one parent. That resentment is the likely cause of parents alienating the children, because of the bitterness felt, especially by the father, who rightfully feels he got screwed over. That is how things played out for me. I never alienated my kids, but my ex continues to this day. I don't even get to see my children, and the court monitors my child support payments, and my court ordered health insurance. But even when I bring up her violations to my attorney, he won't even file any action, because he is afraid to "offend" the judge. The family courts need to be done away with completely. Divorces would hardly be a thing if women weren't heavily compensated for nuking their own families.
You do realize that 1) Most custody cases do not make it to court...but when they do, fathers are just as likely or even more likely to win custody, especially if they invoke the parental alienation argument against the mother. And 2) most fathers involved in a custody dispute willingly forgo additional custody time. So yes, mothers get custody more but that is largely because the fathers voluntarily give up their time. Maybe we should focus more on improving men to be better fathers and not denigrating mothers.
@@ultimate8550 You are very incorrect. Most custody cases do go through court - how do support orders get created if not through the court system? And how does custody get established?
Really??? Are you serious that fathers invoke parental alienation argument and gain custody? Fathers have zero rights in family court due to how it is set up. A father can bring up parental alienation, but the court will scoff at any allegations he makes. If a woman made the same allegation, her concerns would be considered.
I have never met nor heard of any father willingly give up additional custody time, ever.
The entire premise of family courts is to automatically grant custody to the mother while penalizing the father financially, removing children from his influence, and putting the father under the authority of a woman. It's a satanic agenda. The Godly agenda is/was for families to remain intact with the father as the sole authority over the entire family.
After rereading your comment, I have come to the conclusion that you are either a moron or deliberately obfuscating the issue.
I was divorced in 2007, was able to "visit" with my kids one weekend a month... until my ex-wife petitioned the court to end that. I haven't seen my kids in over 9 years. Tell me again how fathers have equal rights and willingly give up time with their children, moron.
And how should we not denigrate mothers? My ex-wife took an oath before God, the church, our family and friends, that she would remain my wife until death. But after 7 years, because she wasn't "happy", she destroyed a huge portion of my life, and left my sons without a father involved in their lives in their most formidable years. Denigrating mothers who use the corrupt and evil family court system to enact punishment on her husband for the most arbitrary of reasons seems more than justifiable.
Have you noticed that marriage has been on the decline ever since the formation of family courts? Men are learning how corrupt this institution is. If family court is as fair as you say, how come marriage has declined so greatly?
Dr. Grande... Have you considered covering topics on how PSA and estrangement work together? My adult daughter has estranged herself from my husband and I, due to my brother and his wife, who had custody of her when she was born, and didn't want to give her up when I won the court case. As a result , I believe that my daughter suffered from attachment disorders, which contributed to her emotional and behavioral challenges. We did not get along when she was growing up and she left home after she graduated from high school, to live with a member of her church. When my brother and his wife found out, they very quickly invited her to be a part of the holidays, while intentionally excluding my husband and I. He had help from the family to accomplish this (flying monkeys).
Our relationship with our daughter was very strained after she moved out, but it has now resulted in complete estrangement, especially since my brother and his wife asked her to move in with them and offered to pay for her college education, something that our daughter resented my husband and I for not agreeing to do. We feel that she has joined in with the family's scapegoating routine as a way to justify the behavior that lead us to tell her that she could not move back in with us, after she left. However, I am also doing my best to empathize with how she feels.
As a result of my husband and I being "kicked out of the tribe", I formalized our many years of going "no contact" by permanently breaking ties with my family, since I considered this behavior to be very abusive not only to me, but very toxic and damaging to everyone as a whole, especially our daughter. By the way, my brother bullied me while I was growing up, and into adulthood, as others in the family will attest to (the elephant pooping in the living room).
We noticed a difference in our daughter's attitude towards us, once she moved in with my brother. Now, she has become very hostile towards me, as well, and as a result, a relationship with her is not sustainable at this point, especially since she issued me an "ultimatum" that she would not have a relationship with us, unless we rejoined the family! We can only hope that with time, she may realize what is going on, but with her diagnosis of ODD at a young age, and my wondering when she was a teenager if she was narcissistic, this gives us cause for concern.
With the multitudes of videos and blogs on estrangement and narcissism, the parent is always blamed. With the rise of estrangement coinciding with the young adult "entitlement" culture, isn't it time that we consider that these adult children could also be responsible?
I can tell you that it's a real thing.
Parental alienation is very real. It's happened to my ex brother-in-law and a dear friend. In fact, our whole family have been cut off from my BIL's children so my kids can never meet their own cousins. It's very cruel. My friend is working desperately to build a relationship with her estranged daughter. It's very stressful. As a divorcee, I really try my best to encourage the relationship between my kids and their father. It wasn't easy in the beginning because he broke my heart and then treated me like dirt as though it was my fault. I probably did a bit of mild parental alienation, but felt so bad about it afterwards and compensated. Parents need to be counseled during divorce about these things. But I think severe alienation is done by a narcissist. 😥😭
I didn’t hear you mention when there’s actual abuse going on, and how accusations of PA can be used to further the violence, eg. gender-based violence and the misuse of parental alienation in family courts.
Yes. Hope he uses actual cases other than just scenarios.
My children are in their thirties and still suffer from the alienation their father caused
Bump. This vid needs a LOT more views.
I am an alienated father who went through a contentious divorce. I haven't seen my sons in over 18 mos and don't expect to be invited to their high school and college graduations next year. So I'm predisposed to agree with Dr. Grande's observations.
But I wish the literature he references was more extensive and compelling. One is to a paper written by Richard Warshak, a leading proponent of PA who endorses a draconian method of deprogramming children subjected to PA that is hotly debated (and arguably cruel). The only other reference is a dead link to Dr. Grande's alma mater's web site. In other words, the literature supporting the idea of PA cited here is limited and easily dismissed by its critics.
I'm also wary of second hand or amateur diagnoses of narcissism and BPD. I don't think my ex- is narcissistic or has a personality disorder. I just think she did a really shitty thing.
A more measured and forceful argument supporting the existence of PA and its damaging effects on children is the fact that a variation of it was recently approved for inclusion in the WHO's ICD diagnostic manual. I think this carries more weight than the sources cited here. All the better if the DSM follows suit.
www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/a-divorced-father-his-estranged-kids-and-a-controversial-program-to-bring-them-together/2017/05/09/b50ac6f6-204c-11e7-ad74-3a742a6e93a7_story.html
karenwoodall.blog/2019/05/27/world-health-organisation-recognises-parental-alienation/
Having delved further in to Childress' videos and online writing, I find his claims dubious. There's no data from well-designed, peer-reviewed studies to support his theories on PA. IMO, until there is, it's pseudoscience.
@@Whatnot Hows it 'dubious' If you know anything about attachment systems, or even experienced anything of the sort, he's straight on target. This is about family and attachment systems. Not just remnants of a clusterB abuser, but an entire historical family dynamic whereby the abusive parent typically roleplays their own trauma through their own child. In other words, projection and trauma reenactment, intergenerational trauma transference and enmeshment, among other things.
Id be interested to know what/where you think he's off target. It appears the politicisation of the alienation situation has tainted the real world effects of the behaviour to children.
IMO the effects of PA on kids are far more important than tryin to prove which parent was right or wrong. If there is THAT much of a problem, supervised visits are always an option.
If THAT is a problem for people, then THOSE PEOPLE need to be scrutinised...
NOONE has the right to keep a child away from ANY parent save for actualised and proven abuse.
I had an unusual situation in which mother constantly reinforced the idea that farther was a good man and how much they loved me even though the behaviour of father didn't match up with this. Turns out both parents were damaged and unable to provide healthy consistent parenting in different ways. So many people shouldn't have children.
I appreciate your clinical views but I think that unless and until you've lived with a narcissist and get a personal view of how warped their needs are, you won't really understand how easy it is for them to coerce and brainwash their own children for their emotional benefit. For them it's a win or lose viewpoint. There is no in between.
To decide that the "syndrome" is not real is short-sighted and just wrong. Live with this person. Have a child with them, divorce them, and watch what they do with that child. You won't be so carelessly ready to write it off.
& youll find most people opining on this have NO IDEA about family systems, attachment systems, or psycholoigcal trauma incited by a cluster B partner or mother. More often than not, many dont even realise theyve been abused until its too late...
I don’t understand why a couple divorcing would be so immature as to manipulate a child, when they both know this is a traumatic episode for the family, and a time when a child needs to feel loved more than ever. Yet I’ve seen this manipulation in every couple I know who have divorced.
Perhaps the reality is nature intended for children to learn from their parents' experience and no matter how difficult and culturally manifested this awful situation is, children will learn something from it just as they always have and society should get off policing families and punishing them and look for simplicity except in the worst cases where a child is being severely abused and then protect the child first and foremost and otherwise proceed with caution.
oh, but people are indeed immature.
It can easily be one abuser and one target victim and innocent children. Not all abuse is physical.
Scott Family If a child does not have their needs met by age 4, if they are traumatized, their brains never fully develop.
People have traditionally had a tribal culture, where there is a lot of support. That support seems to be vital for healthy growth and maturity. Each generation becomes more isolated. That can’t be healthy.
@@Caperhere I believe supportive villages are wonderful, but I also believe in children being with and having one dedicated attached figure primarily available at least through the ages of three to five, depending on the child. I homeschooled my kids in the early years and they are doing amazing in regular school now, and there wasn't ever a time they weren't learning. If the village is supportive that is great, but in most cultures there is still a primary parent. My kids thoroughly benefitted and feel themselves that they do well and are the kind of children everyone enjoys and have the confidence to think outside the box and speak up when necessary because I spent dedicated time with them. We enjoy each other's company but also all their teachers have said they see all the time the difference it makes if a parent spends that time with their child and they all support homeschooling unequivocally. When I placed my eldest child at three and a half in a few hours of playschool three days a week, that was perfect for her and she was always ready to go home after those few hours and glad to have the next day off. Her playschool teacher took babies six months and above but didn't believe any child should be away from its mother before three to three and a half, period, after running a really nice care centre with a high school buddies programme for close to 40 years. She didn't think children should spend the many hours they did there either. You see their lights go out. It isn't fair to children at all. My son was very happy to stay home with me until nine but he always had good friends and I was always the parent available and trusted for extended caregiving. My kids have great social lives and are very independent. People have to do what they have to do but I wouldn't have had children if I thought I would have had to dump them in day care all day. I also saw many unexpected upsetting happenings where, if parents knew, they would be really upset and angry, when I spent hours in playschool after play school (just as I have in senior's care homes) whether they were considered top notch public or private, looking for the right setting for my child, and also spent a wonderful time in a parent run preschool that was really lovely. There were a couple of good nature based parent run ones, but many times they have a mixed bag of parents involved and your child is at the mercy of other's moods and attitudes where as there was so much joy and peace and time for my children to explore independently on their own time lines during the time we had together. That safety then gave them courage and confidence now.
Dr. Grande I would agree that new situations for children to cope with can only exacerbate parental alienation. When both a boy and girl close in age are involved along with lawyers betting on outcomes giving unwise advice the chidlren are again the most at risk all the way to their own completion of at least a diploma or a degree in post secondary education.
Wow, Dr. Grande, choosing this topic will bring you millions of views... This is sooo common! My mom tried this with my father and me (but it didn't work, she had underestimated my intelligence, hihi 😊 ) and my husbands Ex-wife did it successfully with his daughter. Maybe I write a second comment later about it.
I'm afraid that Dr. Grande will work and work and work and then suddenly fall off his seat and is... 💀 !
Mrs. Reluctant glad she could not manipulate you.
Parental alienation real. The pain in my heart is real and there’s no relief
Parental alienation never occurs in a vacuum and is not the occasional back and forth complaint one parent has about the other to their children every now and then, nor even a repeat specific complaint amongst positives, in a normal family dynamic, even during divorce. We are all human and our children learn from our humanity and our imperfections, too.
Parental alienation can be identified. 100% I am a step parent and this has happened and still tries to happen to my husband and I. Alienation didn't happen during their divorce, but years later when his ex was settled with a new husband and new baby. A huge effort to get her daughter to wright in a diary to use secretly in court. After she got caught, my partner took his daughter to a therapist to find out what was going on. The therapist gave us a book and it was a checklist of symptoms. The therapist helped reconnect him with his daughter. Damage though, will forever be their. His ex still continues to this day with trying to alienate. Best defense for combating alienation is for the targeted parent to delicately show his disagreement with his ex's views and to show facts, only after the alienating parent has brought the child into adult matters.The ex finds reasons to this day to revisit court trying to pressure her daughter in unnecessary views. I could go on and on. If anyone is experiencing this, which we usually don't know its happening, look up Dr. Craig Childress videos to understand what is going on in a breakdown. He give a wonderful examples. Watch the videos pertaining to psychologist and how to diagnose! To each child, targeted parent, step parent out their dealing with this. Remember to always stay neutral and to tame the rollercoaster. Its ok to need time for yourself, work together with your partner, and go on dates to destress.
One tweenie I knew saw through this tactic. A boyfriend of her moms was there criticizing her Dad. She stopped the conversation and, said,” if my Dad is so bad why don’t you put down the coffee cup ‘ HE’ bought, get your ass off the couch ‘HE’ bought, open the door ‘HE’ bought and walk through it? She said, “Why would you want to be in the house of such a bad person if you want to criticize him so bad?” Older children can see through tactics if the other parent doesn’t withhold affection when a child expresses reality.
I take this term with a grain of salt. Because I have primary custody of my son (He is 5 1/2) and he openly states he wants to stay with me more and doesn't want to see mom. He tells me his mom and stepdad fight and also fight with each other and talk s*it about me. I also provide a better stable life for him, with me he has, 2 cats a puppy, I am involved with grandparents (on BOTH sides of the family), his mother has been claiming parental alienation because of this, but she doesn't provide a good life for him at all, she only cares about herself or instagram. It's a scary slope since women are more believed in general IMO. MY ex is also refusing to participate in therapy sessions for our son (Which is supposed to involve me, her, and our son) all because she is afraid of our son choosing me over her. This topic is such a scary slippery slope.
Yes. This is a great example of the kind of situation I outlined in my other comment. The courts generally do make this tough on dads because of the automatic benefit of the doubt assigned to moms 🙄, but it's unbelievable how easily a court can be by a dad who is a skilled narcissist. Yikes. Our kids are so vulnerable to their parents. Good for you for taking good care of your son! 😉🙏
Judy Lee Yeah. It’s hard to judge based on it being a small paragraph on RUclips, some info could have been left out. But, I agree that it just doesn’t sound right. Exactly what danger or problem does the mother pose to the child? Being a better parent or thinking that you are is not grounds for keeping a child from the other parent.
It is hard when your ex is a crap parent. But if there’s no danger, you just to do what you can to ensure the child doesn’t turn out like them. My ex’s family would give Chris Watts’ family a run for their money, but I still have to send my son there to see them and his father. I’m fodder to them, my son is fodder to them and has value only to demonstrate how wonderful his dad (their son) is, despite the fact his dad had nothing to do with anything my son has achieved. But, I still cannot say anything negative about them in front of my son and I have to ensure he attends every visit. Of course they speak badly of me and are narcissistic, but unless there is real harm being done, the child has to see the other parent.
@@brusselsprout5851 It's required by the Court in Colorado. It was mandated that we are both present for our Son's therapy sessions. She's refusing to go because she has joint decision making on medical (Hence, she can just refuse to show up to stone wall the sessions.). She lost School decision making doing the same tactic earlier in the year, I now have sole decision on that. I also have primary and majority custody. My ex is a narc, and not having any control over anything drives her mad. She believes our son "should just love her more", but again she doesn't understand how to provide properly. Thus, she causes these small issues that don't even need to be issues. I made appointments, put them on our calendar on Talking Parents, time, day, etc. Doesn't show up. I can't force someone to participate if they do not want to.
Again I do not "hate" my ex, I think she fell down a narc hole and got caught up with the wrong crowd of friends and her new guy is a complete narc and has control issues. It's just sad IMO.
@@joceelee There is abuse at her house with her and the "step dad" this has been documented by our CFI in her last report.
@@scottfamily5963 Care to explain? Jumping to conclusions much?
When there is an absent parent and the child bonds with grandparents. The Ailienator can do this to the grandparents or other adult figures. It is frequently done to grandparents. I prefer the term "Child Ailienation."
Proving parental alienation in court usually involves explication of the Five Factor Model and presentation of evidence through the prism of the model. The Five-Factor Model is based on the work of Amy J. L. Baker, Ph.D., and her colleagues.10 According to the parental alienation theory, when a court or a professional is asked to determine the presence of (or rule out) parental alien ation, such determination cannot be made without considering the actions, behaviors, and attitudes of all the relevant players, to wit: the child, the rejected parent, and the favored parent.
One way to make this determination is to consider the five factors proposed by Dr. Baker and her colleagues:
(1) the child actively avoids, resists, or refuses a relationship with a parent;
(2) presence of a prior positive relationship between the child and the now rejected parent;
(3) absence of abuse or neglect or seriously deficient parenting on the part of the now rejected parent;
(4) use of multiple alienating behaviors by the favored parent; and
(5) exhibition of many or all of the eight behavioral manifestations of alienation by the child.
When all five factors are present, one can determine that the child is alienated.
The Five-Factor Model is not a speculative, academic theory; the model has been empirically supported in a study of sixty-eight mental health profession als who rated sixteen variations of a vignette.¹¹ As Dr. Baker explains,
[a]ll ratings of the vignette with Factors 2-5 present indicated that alien ation was the most likely cause of a child's rejection of the other parent. When only one or no factor was present, there was an agreement that it was not a case of alienation.12
The Model offers family law practitioners and judges a framework to ensure that information about all relevant parties is factored into making an assess ment or a finding. More importantly, the Model can be used to differentiate alienated from estranged children.¹3 Let's consider each factor and how it fits in presenting a case of parental alienation in court.
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So wicked to do to another
As always a great informative vid😉 Thank you
My nieces and nephews are not only being alienated from their Father, my brother. But the whole family...my children are not even allowed to send cards to their cousins! And my niece told my brother, as She sobbed her eyes out, that She never wanted to visit Him and spend time with Him anymore. After She got these words out, her little sister said, "Mommy told Emma She had to say that!" It's complete abuse and evil!
So I've noticed there is no talk about very young children in this conversation.
And how a parent with primary custody can hurt a parent so much that they don't want to engage at all with them for fear of extreme attacks against their ability to be a parent, and the child is so young they have no ability to articulate their desire to see the other parent essentially making it where the other parent never exists, and even replacing the parent with another person entirely.
Parents dumb enough to do this will end up alienating their child from themselves when the child is an adult. You reap what you sow!
Exactly. When kids grow up they’ll understand the situation much better. And kids grow up very quickly.
One of the saddest parts is that children who are victims of parental alienation report having trouble forming bonds and attachment with their own children as adults. It's creating generational trauma.
Nope sometimes the kids never ever realise
Unfortunately parental alienation also sometimes is targeted at step parents as well. It's not only narcissism that plays a role in this but also some folks with BPD. They are afraid their child will abandon them for the other parent. You are very wise to stay away from talking about the political forces that influence this topic of discussion. They do play a very large role in those who rail against its existence though.
As do step-parents target the real parent. I've been dealing with a stepmother that has fed my daughter horrific disgusting lies since my daughter was six years old
Can you revisit this topic focused on the 2 kids in Santa Cruz that were removed from the home and then ran away from the mom?
Parental alienation may exist, remember we didnt know ADHD existed we didnt know Autism was a thing.... as time goes on we learn more about psychology theres things we wont know for hundreds of years, maybe disorders that dont exist yet
It’s absolutely 100% real