6 Times Shadow of War Completely Broke The Lore
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- Опубликовано: 13 июл 2024
- Warning: HUGE spoilers ahead!
Middle-earth: Shadow of War doesn't half play fast and loose with Tolkien lore. Johnny, being a pedant, brings you six times Shadow of War completely broke the lore.
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As a harcore Tolkien fan, I gotta say, since it's not a NON CANON game, the changes made to the lore for dramatic and entertaining experiences, didin't bothered me much.
Im not saying it's fair or anything, It's just an "If story" of some kind. Just not the canon that I gre reading, and since it's not part of the REAL story, I find no reason to get upset :)
'it's not a NON CANON game'. So it is canon in the middle earth lore?
yes
Emanuel Stenberg well creating a whole New fantasy feanchise with orks and an Elf gohst and magical rings would have been called a lord of the rings Ripoff from the Start.
Same here, as long as people know that the game is just a non canon game with a what if setting I love it
_I broke the lore, and the lore won!_
i fucking knew someone would do this bloody brilliant
Should have dominated the lore. Then you could have commanded it to change the plot.
lol
I was just about to post this, thank you
Breaking the lore, Breaking the lore *guitar shred*
Breaking the lore, Breaking the lore
I think you're missing the biggest lore break of them all. Possibly you didn't mention it because you thought it was implied, or because you saw it more as a Shadow of Mordor lore break than Shadow of War. But here it is... Celebrimbor is the ring maker. In the games, Celebrimbor forges all the rings of power, including the one ring. In the actual lore, Sauron is the master smith who forges the one ring. He also teaches the craft of ring forging to the elves, and Celebrimbor is able to forge 3 lesser rings (lesser in power and also in corruption). These are the rings of the elves, worn by Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf. In the books, only Sauron is mighty enough to forge the one ring, and only he is its master. He is a maia who was taught how to craft and forge magic items by the Vala Aulë the smith, who is (more or less) the god of the forge. So he really doesn't need an elf to forge a magic ring for him.
elbentzo you know, i like the game version better, it makes sauron look like more of a parasite with all that thing about fooling celebrimbor to forge the rings. thoughts?
elbentzo, you are absolutely right on this point. 100%. For myself, because I enjoy this series, I have a personal head canon for this critical detail. My theory is that in this timeline (because by this point, this is absolutely an alternate universe) Sauron wanted greater influence over the Three that Celebrimbor forged independently, and dragged him to Mt. Doom to "forge" a greater connection between the One and the Three so that his master plan of controlling all the races would have greater chance of success. However, Celembrimbor stole the One and rebelled, and by the time Sauron retrieved it, the bearers of the Three had already sensed the threat and removed their rings as in canon, foiling Sauron's plan.
It never says or shows Celebrimbor forging the one ring he only improved it which I know is still breaking lore
Sean Francis no, in the original game (SoM) they explicitly say and show that it was Celebrimbor who forged the one ring for Sauron. Not that I mind too much, it was still a very fun game. I'm just saying, if you're going to make a list of places where they broke the lore - this should probably be number one.
felipisr666 I like the Silmarilion version better. Makes Sauron much more powerful and menacing. He is a near god, not just some dude who plays others for fools. But to each his own, I can see how you can have a different idea of Sauron than me.
I don't remember Gandalf buying crates.
That's where he went before Helm's Deep. Ran away, opened a few loot crates with army bonuses and Bob's your uncle.
Buy You fools!
Sorry
How do you think he got that white robe?
He saw how P2W the Balrog was and bought some boxes to make sure he wouldn't have a hard fight ever again.
You Shall not Pass!!!!
Frodo: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO - moneyyyy!
Gandalf: Gimme money or no Shire endgame grind for you!
"Sauron's crack-team of scary mates" Fantastic.
I actually liked the idea of more fleshed out backstories for some of the Nazgul. The books only ever told us that most of them were kings who got corrupted by their rings but we never really got to know them.
However, choosing someone like Isildur or Helm Hammerhand as a Nazgul was complete bogus. Sauron never gave a shit about Rohan and he deeply hated Isildur for taking the ring from him.
I can imagine how this idea came about.
Developers sitting in a conference room
Dev 1: Hey, in our sequels let's include the 9
Dev 2: sure! and give them backstories
Dev 3: "Isildur" and "Helm Hammerhand" are mentioned in the movies, how about these names?
Everyone: Great Idea!!!
What is sweeter revenge than making one of your most hated enemies your steadfast ally by corrupting his very soul to the point of no return?
That whole Helm being a Nazgul pissed me off:
-Helm being a Nazgul. When the Nazguls were formed thousands of years before Helm was born
-Celebrimbor being there, alongside Sauron, when Helm received the ring. When Celebrimbor died in the Second age
-Sauron having an elven guise. When he lost the ability to have it for good after Numenor fell.
@@konstantinoskalavrezos5273 Mostly because that's not how the Rings work. You can't put one of them on somebody and they instantly turn into your slave. It takes decades of willing use of the ring. Isildur, in that situation, could simply take it off. Or kill himself. Or use it to fight his way out with the power boost, THEN take it off. The danger was in the temptation to use them for power, and it took centuries for them to work the ill effects.
The instant slavery was only possible if Sauron had the One. And, in this case, he didn't. (And even then... it was possible to take a ring off to escape the enslaving. At least for those wearing the Three.)
@@Swiftbow I find it even funnier how Orcs fished out a giant ass human king clad in heavy metallic armour, but not a small ring that specifically watns to come back to it's master and would easily get into the hands of an orc in a lake like that
Hold on a sec--that whole thing about Isildur and Helm getting turned into wraiths by having rings put on them after death? That means that Sauron knew exactly where Isildur died, because he found his ruddy corpse! And yet he never found the One Ring, despite it being in the lake right next to Isildur's body and presumably calling out to its master?
d2factotum well sauron never recovered the body himself, and orcs dont make the best deep sea divers.
Not to mention, the ring fell of isaldurs finger when he entered the river, it's entirely possible the ring drifted further up the river than isaldurs body, and smeagol found the ring before sauron could dispatch goblins to get it.
The Ring fell to the river. Even if Sauron knew where to look for, it could've been anywhere by the time he recovered. Remember that it took him a couple thousand years to regain some strenght.
Besides, the idea here is that by just putting on the One Ring, even if for a brief period of time, it is enough to grant corruption. That's why all Ringbeares eventually went to Valinor. Isuldur died and his spirit as already enthralled.
Doesn't explain how he got one of the Nine posthumously thou, and whatever happened to it's previous user...
Well, that's kind of the point. What would be left of Isildur's corpse after Sauron reformed himself, which, as you say, took a thousand years or more? Enough to put a ring on it and bring it back as a Ringwraith? It just doesn't make sense either way.
Dude, they are wraiths. They don't have, or need bodies. That's why they are "invisible", they are the physical manifestation of their corrupted spirits.
If, giving Shadow of War's interpretation, Isuldur was corrupted by just using the One Ring once, then what happened to his corpse doesn't really matter.
minor note, but you mentioned that Celebrimdor also forged the one ring to rule them all. The one ring was actually forged by Sauron in secret. And the three rings for the elven kings were forged in secret from Sauron in a way that, while still subject to the one ring, were much less corrupted than the others.
he said that shadow of Mordor revealed that, he never said that it was canon.
Celebrimbor didn't really forge the One Ring. In Shadow of Mordor it's revealed he just added some finishing touches
From what it looks like in the cutscenes of Shadow of Mordor, it almost looked as if Sauron made the One Ring then made Celebrimbor add his own touches to it some point afterwards, while at the same time he secretly did this in an attempt to turn the One Ring on Sauron and take it for himself, only for Sauron to reclaim it as its true master.
@@teleportedbreadfor3days I feel like Celebrimbor being forced to do something to the one ring has to do with Elven rings of power
@@NiCoNiCoNiCola I’m pretty sure he feigned seduction and tricked Sauron into thinking he willingly helped him perfect his One Ring or whatever he was doing. Maybe he was applying the runes.
I just kinda ignore the lore and enjoy the game for what it is
That's too hard for me to do... I play the game and while I can enjoy it, it constantly gnaws at me that the game breaks lore often.
Poisonedcrow I know a lot about lotr lore and this game does prickle me sometimes but I can still enjoy it as a great game
What is lore?
Baby don't hurt me,
Don't hurt me,
No more !
U r right
"a good deal of carnan's questline, undoubtely the worst in the game btw" *etariel backstabbing you with Celebrimbor in the background*
If monolith stuck strictly to lore then we wouldnt have got this awesoms game
Sticking strictly to the lore isn't the problem. Violating with ridiculous changes that made the story WORSE via opening up a million different plot holes is the problem.
@@unbelievablytrash9458 it's not canon so who cares. Calm down.
@@bananaman3536 I'm perfectly calm. I'm not sure what gave you the opposite impression. It may not be an important discussion, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss it. In my opinion, the game would have been better if they had been more lore friendly.
@@unbelievablytrash9458 agreed
Unbelievably Trash the game is one of the most groundbreaking games of all time and u think it’s trash???? Woooooooooow! Literally the nemesis system is amazing, the gameplay is amazing, the visuals are amazing, the story is (kinda lacking) but isn’t shit like u are tryin to make it out to be. Get the stick out ur ass and realize that the game is good and ur just butthurt bc it didn’t do what u wanted
If you're mad about Helm and Isildur, wait until you see the "true ending".
they took it down sadly and unless you want spoilers
Low FPS Gaming they took it down, some German RUclips channel uploaded it.
As Willy Wonka once said: *YOU GET NOTHING! YOU LOSE! GOOD DAY SIR!*
LOL!!!
the way i see it this world is basically lord of the rings the wraith unleashed
lore break: the hammer of sauron was easier to defeat than sauron himself
Gandalf actually says, in the extended edition of the Fellowship of the Ring, that he studied orc magic. It might just be a movie thing but it’s at least mentioned.
It's so laughable when people talk about these 2 videos games in relation to the original Arda Legendarium created by JRR Tolkien! Obviously, they are not set in that universe but the Arda Legendarium of the live-action 'The Hobbit' & 'The Lord of The Rings' film trilogies instead!
@@Optimegatrongodzilla The movies didn't make Isuildur or Helm into Nazgul... You can talk about taking liberties in the movies but Christ man, don't cherry pick.
@@dr.feelgoodmalusphillips2475 They never said in the movies that that didn't happen though, so, that opened the door for Monolith to add to the mythos that Peter Jackson & Philippa Boyens created for their film adaptations of Tolkien's material.
did it break the lore? kinda
does it really matter? not really, the product we got was very enjoyable
Except for the Shadow Wars at the end. That oh-so-enjoyable slog of doing one siege defense (or siege assault if you fail the defense) after another after another ad infinitum.
it was okay but not really as good as the first game was at the time.
BaronVonHoovy My game glitched at the last stage so I didn't get to see the ending
wow that sucks
Zach Buford Kinda is a massive understatement, it broke the lore like a snapped twig. It's like a bad fanfic. BUT you can still enjoy the game, thats fine.
Question: Can Elves wield magic?
Answer: Yes.
Question: What are Orcs?
Answer: Elves twisted by Morgoth's dark magic and influence.
Question: Can Orcs wield magic?
Answer: No?
Because why?
Daniel Howard You answered yourself in that comment. Morgoth hated elves, and that’s why he kidnapped some and twisted them to be his slaves, the orcs. And besides, they weren’t created with pure intentions and that doubtlessly took away much of what they could have been if a pure-hearted Morgoth had made them with Eru Illuvitar’s blessing.
@@lokki3791 The orcs of Arda are actually one of the smartest races, and posses a love of industry.
@@lokki3791 Intelligence isn't linked to magic in the world of Arda, magic draws from one's Fëa. The Fëa of orcs is weak and tainted, which would be why they can't use magic is my bet
Not all elven factions are the same. Celebrimbor is one of the Noldor, and Noldor are more powerful than e.g. the common wood elves of Mirkwood, owing to their time spent in Valinor. Of course it's nowhere close to how Tolkien envisioned the whole thing, but it's definitely nowhere near as egregious as some of the things listed here either.
Because they are twisted
To be fair Shelob is a shape changing entity, much like gandalf took the form of a human when he came to middle earth, Shelob took the form of a demon spider.
This game was amazing. Loved the story, music, gameplay and new upgrade system.
I agree with pretty much everything here, and there are other moments you have not mentioned as well, some pedantic fans might get really upset.
But I just wanted to say, please don't. As a whole and aside microtransactions, this is a very solid, fun game. Monolith never promised a "by the book" adaptation, and basic mechanics of Nemesis and siege would never allow that anyway. Still, writers did a great job of moderately molding the lore and making new one, so you could play a fun game about different aspects of Mordor and Middle-earth, and they would still seem legitimate. Both those that never read Tolkien and die hard fans can enjoy this game, on condition that they don't take it *really* seriously lore-wise. I mean, running around Mordor with an elf wraith inside you, meeting Shelob (although it would be cooler if she was always a spider, think about people with arachnophobia), seeing similar-yet-different culture among orcs, who sing and drink and discuss and stuff (rather than just abstract evil army), are all so fun and cool and you would not be able to do that if all LotR games were 100% faithful. I think fun and variability outweighs the need of some people to say "hey they fucked up book lore"
Best comment I've seen on this video, or any video on this game really
I've never read the books or watch the movies myself but I love this game and because of that I kind of want to watch the movies then maybe even read the books
You really should. One thing is certain, Lord of the Rings is one of pylons, staples of fantasy genre. It would never have gotten so much praise and popularity if it wasn't good anyway. It's a huge, detailed saga that makes simple "good vs evil" trope come alive through a big detailed world and plethora of interesting, relatable and different characters and well knit story that is fun to follow. Assuming one does not have allergy to reading/fantasy, probably every man should read the trilogy.
And even if you don't, LotR movie trilogy is just as good as popular, naturally making some adjustments but still doing great justice to the books as much as a movie could have. Surely you can find few hours for simple to watch and understand, fun movies that immerse you in the books atmosphere correctly.
TL;DR don't just want to watch the movies, watch them. And afterwards you will likely make up your mind whether you want the books or not
Lore trumps everything for me. Fun and variability are irrelevant at the end of the day if the product isn't lore friendly, at least when it comes to Tolkien's works.
k
I'm fairly certain that Minas Ithil fell twice in the lore, the first time in the war against Sauron shortly after the fall of Numenor and the second time after the Gondorian kin-strife
Actually, the second time was shortly after the elves and men of Gondor destroyed thwWitch Kings realm of Angmar. Later on, he would gather all nine ring-wraiths and take Minas Ithil. It's still several centuries before the game takes place though
Haaaaaaaaaaaaave you played the "Blade of Galadriel" DLC? Enjoy the asian ring wraith.
Tybalt S I assume they are from Khand buddy, Games workshop gave Khand a Chinese vibe in their Khand models for their tabletop game so I guess that’s where they got the inspiration from, that’s also where Suladân comes from too... though he isn’t a Nazgûl, just a king of Harad
Ah yes, khamul who has existed since the hobbit films.... What's the issue with an Asian ring wraith?
@@pepebabushki9376 because those two broke control of Sauron, even though Sauron should have full control over them. Two Asian ladies also apparently killed two Nazguel as well, which I call bullshit on.
Pretty sure Khamul the Easterling was the only one Tolkein ever named, and with the title 'the Easterling' something tells me he wasn't from Europe.
Honestly Khand always gave a middle eastern /Turko-Persian vibe to me not Chinese, it's like they skipped a whole region for this to work.
The Isildur and Helm thing, while kinda cool and obviously put in to rope some fans in....was completely insane and I can't believe they got the go-ahead for that. I wont even mention the Shelob being Sauron's lover paradox or her inclusion in general. I would have found it interesting though if due to Talion's fall to becoming a wraith she was permanetly transofrmed into a spider and her mind slowly drained away into the version we know from the movies.
2:57 actually u are correct there. I dont remember what type of spirit took the form of a spider that laid the eggs off Shelob, but she actually cant take the form of a human
The only part of the game that truly broke the lore was that Celebrombor crafted the rings when he only really made the three elven rings and the new ring.
How could isildur be one of the 9 when he stole the 1 ring AFTER sauron corrupted the 9 LOL
According to the game some of the 9 get replaced so Isildur replaced one. What doesn't make sense, however is that Sauron hated Isildur because he is the one resposible for his fall. Personally i would have prefered a game about what Aragorn did before the events of the LotR since that way, they wouldn't have had to mess with the lore.
Stefan Blumberg But Aragorn was an already flushed out character. They wanted to make a new story
As far as I know they have not told us about when he went to Umbar or the Easterlings or Harad. He is my favourite character and I don't feel like he is that flushed out. even a game about the Fall of Numenor, the wars against Melkor or the last Alliance would be epic. There are so many storys in Tolkins lore that they could have done instead of making a new story.
I think the Tolkein estate still owns the rights to the relevant lore like the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales.
kiwipile oh
Talion will alwyas be canon in my heart.
Same buddy
Edit: The corrupted gravewalker with the purest heart in all of middle earth
Me too
Not every nazgul were “created” at the same time. The which king being the first. In the eltarial dlc we saw 2 nazgul being proper killed and being replaced by the 2 sisters. So it’s entirely possible that helm could be a nazgul,
The Nazgul can add more to their ranks its is stated that both king and man can fall into the servitude of becoming a nazgul as long as Sauron demands it.
So even if he was not born at the time they where spotted they added more to their ranks.
Sauron can add or remove who he pleases.
On the Nazgûl, what about Suladân? That's a double lore break, since Suladân WAS a LoTR character, but he wasn't even canon then since he was part of a STRATEGY GAME.
It's not lore-breaking. Lore-break happens if you go directly in contrast with the lore (i.e. the siege of minas ithil happend way before the hobbit, in the game it happens after), but since Tolkien didn't name 7 Nazguls out of 9 one is free to think they were whoever he wants them to be. It's not canon, but it's not lore-breaking either
Giacomo Meluzzi it is lore breaking as the nine existed for a few thousand years before Isildur and Helm were born, they are all ancient kings of Numeror
Iron Wolf I don't like defending monoliths decisions because I was never that in depth into the books, but based of the events of the game the fact that Talion himself becomes a ringwrath (when there's is already existing Nazgûl), one could say that Isildur and Helm had similar fates. I believe it was Isildur himself that said in the game something along the lines of "the ones who are chosen by the dark lord will come to serve him". I would contend to say they wanted to imply that just like you replace your own loyal Uruks in the game with more powerful opponents, Sauron does as well.
yung malaria defending a lore breaking with a lore break doesn't work.
We are told in the books that they are ancient kings from the time of Numeror
"They are all ancient kings of Numenor"
That is incorrect, as one of the two mentioned Nazgul, Khamul, was an Easterling and not Numenorean at all.
Further, it seems that Sauron chose rulers of Men, so it's not unlikely to assume that several of the Nine were from other Mannish races as well, like the Khandings or the Lossoth.
Minas Ithil was taken by Sauron forces SA 3428, but it was retaken by Gondor. The transformation of Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul is TA 2002.
What strikes me a lot in this game is the fact that you can win faces a balrog. Even Gandalf is afraid fighting it, and in this game, you do it so easily...That's a balrog ! A creation a Morgoth, not just a pitty pet !
As a hardcore shadow of war fan that bought the gold edition I must say “Only six?!”
its a non canon game. so like it didnt break lore because it was never lore. soo...yea
When we're talking about the wraiths, lets also mention Suladan, proclaimed wraith by monolith, but also a present general of the southrons at the Battle of the pelennor fields
SHADOW OF WAR IS NON CANON, IT DOESNT MATTER IF THEY DONT FOLLOW LORE
it's set in middle earth, therefore it matters... to me at least and from the other comments I've read it also seems to matter to many other people.
@sakor88 the developers never claimed it followed the lore. In fact they were quite clear that it is their own story. It was lore friendly not lore.
I know I am really late to the party, but I would like to add something. According to Tolkien none of the Ringwraiths were in possession of the rings of power, Sauron had them all. The rings were use to corrupt them, but it never stated explicitly that any of them men actually wore them.
The Minas Ithil to Minas Morgul transformation was a great battle that we got to play through but I think that they should have at least have made it a flashback battle, maybe playing as celebrimbor or some other character from that time
What's also funny is that the game actually describes how the Witch King betrayed Earnur, the last king of Gondor, but conveniently doesn't mention he did it from Minas Morgul which he already ruled at the time lol
As far as I remember it was never specified that Shelob was only a spider. To be fair, I don't mind that part.
It was explained in the in game appendix page for the nazgul, it was stated that not all the nazgul are the original nine men doomed to die and that the others aquired them through "unknown means", helm and isildur could still infact have been made ringwraiths thousands of years later
At least Monolith did not said: Rewritting Middle-Earth in way Tolkien was never able to
Yeah, it was lore breaking but damm also hella fun
if a king were to manage a successful kill of a nazgul and keep the ring, would it be a stretch to say he would replace him and become nazgul himself?
If only that were so simple, but unfortunately, as Tolkien wrote it, the Nazgul are basically indestructible as long as the One Ring exists and Sauron grows stronger as Gandalf said:
"You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that,' said Gandalf. `The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him."
Nazgul grow stronger as Sauron does, he can empower them additionally. It requires a rare special kind of weapon to even harm them since ordinary weapons disintegrate upon touching them (at least Witch-king but most likely all):
"Look!' he [Strider] cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King.'"
With the Nine Rings it is actually an interesting thing that it appears Sauron after losing the One, took the Nine rings from Nazgul and kept them himself (probably insurance against theoretical loss of control if someone were to claim the Ruling Ring). I other words the Nazgul would not have the rings with them.
fantasywind The Barrow blades disintegrate if they hit a Nazgûl because Merry's actually did. The quote you gave of Strider is saying that Frodo's attack missed.
Yeah...and there is also stated "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king", which definitely means that weapons used against them are destroyed and Nazgul can't be really slain by them, even when pierced. And only the Barrow Downs blades are capable of really harming them, since they were made specifically for that purpose, "wound about with spells for the bane of Mordor." It appears that even when used on Barrow-wights the blades might be damaged since blade Frodo uses to hack wight's arm is broken.
What Tolkien meant to portrait is what the people of Middle Earth THOUGHT about the Nazguls. Case in point, the Witch King WAS KILLED by a normal blade. Nazguls were all smoke and mirrors, their main weapon was the dread they brought with their names.
Yeah after the MAGICAL BLADE did it's damage:
"But suddenly he too stumbled forward with a cry of bitter pain, and his stroke went wide, driving into the ground. Merry's sword had stabbed him from behind, shearing through the black mantle, and passing up beneath the hauberk had pierced the sinew behind his mighty knee.
'Éowyn! Éowyn!' cried Merry. Then tottering, struggling up, with her last strength she drove her sword between crown and mantle, as the great shoulders bowed before her. The sword broke sparkling into many shards. The crown rolled away with a clang."
...
"Then he looked for his sword that he had let fall; for even as he struck his blow his arm was numbed, and now he could only use his left hand. And behold! there lay his weapon, but the blade was smoking like a dry branch that has been thrust in a fire; and as he watched it, it writhed and withered and was consumed.
So passed the sword of the Barrow-downs, work of Westernesse. But glad would he have been to know its fate who wrought it slowly long ago in the North-kingdom when the Dúnedain were young, and chief among their foes was the dread realm of Angmar and its sorcerer king. No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will."
Besides both 'enchanted' blade of Merry and Eowyn's ordinary sword got destroyed, hence Aragorn's words "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful king" are true in the universe, a knowledge gained by thousands of years of encountering this menace. Characters in story may have limited knowledge of certain things but others are proved to be true statements. Just as there was knowledge of how to deal with dark magic of morgul-knife to prevent victim from turning into a wraith, in Elrond's head, there was some knowledge of the strengths and weaknesses of Nazgul gained by painful experience. Indeed their great weapon was fear, but they had other strengths and powers.
Most of the people who played the game are casual fans of the LOTR movies/books. As one of them, I didn't even really notice half of these my first time through and I could have totally bought all of it. If that's what they were going for, they definitely nailed it. They did have to make a compelling game set in a well established universe with it's own lore after all. People can be free to interpret books as they will and often do with anything that is not said explicitly by an author.
Where did Tolkien ever say Shelob WASN'T a woman who then later chose to be a giant spider or that Ringwraiths can't be replaced with other people posthumously?
where did Tolkien write that Aragorn wasn't a jedi? where did Tolkien write that Sauron wasn't really an Alien from Mars in hiding? where did Tolkien say that Peter Parker wasn't the one who found the ring before Gollum?
I can go on for hours... point is your argument is very weak at best.
If anybody made a StarWars and LOTR crossover, I'd make the same argument. Art can be interpreted in an endless number of ways.
HAHAHAHA then in my mind you've helped me prove it's a terrible argument. Art is nonsense, at least in modern times, that's what I learnt at art school, I remember my teacher would say "if you want to be a politician come to an art school because we'll teach you how to bullshit properly."
(Before I start, I enjoyed the game. I only dislike people defending massive breaks from the lore as something that actually makes sense and should be the new lore)
Well.... Shelob was the child of Ungoliant, the orginial Giant Spider, neither Ungoliant or Shelob has ever been mentioned to have shapeshifting powers as I can recall (though it has been almost a decade since I read the Silmarillion). All spiders descended from Ungoliant, which was a creature even the valar and maiar didn't know the origins of, but they theorised it was born from pure darkness.
Basically, all Shelob is, is a fat spider born from the original, most evil, biggest and fattest spider. The "it never said it wasn't possible in the books" is a silly argument, you could use that to argue that Aragorn can shapeshift into a rainbow coloured flying pig.
That being said, I don't mind Shelob in the game too much personally. The Isildur and Hammerhand thing is more annoying because it feels so lazy and it's so unnecessary.
So I have to ask a question that many probably haven't thought about. Through the fact that there are changes to the timeline during the films adaptation do all these problems stop being more breaking if we assume it takes place in the world of the films or does that not still work
The ring was never "free of corruption." It may be free from Sauron, but that idea of it being pure was used to trick Talion, until the end of the game, where Talion realizes what Celebrimbor is doing. Also pretty sure Shelob became a spider after being betrayed by Sauron.
Saruman: "Sauron has regained much of his former strength. He cannot yet take physical form, but his spirit has lost none of its potency.".
Yet in Shadow Of War we see Sauron take to physical form plenty of times. This is one of the big lore breakers to me. It defeats the purpose of him being detached from the ring.
Late asf but he has a body in the LOTR movies. Aragon uses the Palantir to threaten him and you see Sauron hold up his Palantir, using his armoured body. It makes sense that Sauron wouldn't show Saruman the whole truth since he is the deceiver
@@AlexS-nx2oh I also think the 'not being able to take physical form' thing is film only. In the books, it is implied he still has a physical form, he just never shows up. Though he should be stuck in his 'Dark Lord' form at this point.
Do not come between the Nazgul and his Lore ...
This nazgul lore also affects dain ironfoot in the hobbit dain got his last name by killing azog but azog is alive...
Actually, the only bad part about Helm is in fact the timeline error. He was alive when Celebrimbor and Sauron came with the ring and as we all know, he willingly accepted the ring and it's power
You don't need the ring to poison grog barrels, you can unlock that skill specifically without even unlocking the new ring yet.
And the thousand year old wraith smith made the first rings, using talion as his vessel, it makes sense, and doesn't take away value from saurons ring.
Saurons ring is a tool to rule creation Calembrimbors ring is a tool of revenge
You mean the whole two games ?
Don´t get me wrong these games are enjoyable and fun to play but from the lore perspective they make no sense. They changed so much lore that these games might as well take place in any other fantasy universe .
which lore exactly? because this dude is wrong
Shelob was a Maiar
"Being of divine origin and possessing great power, the Maiar can wander
the world unseen or shape themselves in fashion of Elves, Humans or
other creatures with these "veils", called fanar. Rarely did the Maiar
adopt their visible forms to elves and man, and for that reason, very
few of the Maiar have' names in their tongues, and the elves do not know
how many of the Maiar exist."
Ryan Rule Shelob wasn't a Maia. She is one child of Ungoliant and Ungoliant wasn't a Maia or a Vala.
After a while, Ungoliant couldn't change her form, neither her children.
It's never specified which Ungoliant truly was. I personally believe she's an abomination from the Void, but that's one perpetration. She could very well have been a Maia. That's not a head canon that I like, but it's still a possibility. In short, no one is wrong about this, because Tolkien never gave a proper explanation of what Ungoliant was. But if Ungoliant was a Maia, it wouldn't make a difference. Shelob should still look a spider. Ainur when they mated and bore children became bound to the form they wore when those children had been conceived. So yeah, whether Ungoliant was a Maia or not, is rendered moot any ways. Shelob should still look like a bloody spider, and you both are potentially correct.
@@ryanrule8583 shelob isn't a Maia she's the first daughter of ungoliant who was a maia
The ridiculous thing they did with Shelob puts me off bothering with this game, regardless of how developed the gameplay is. I also agree about the over the top sorcery of the orcs. Balrogs were servants of Morgoth, not only would orcs be incapable of summoning them, they also would never be trusted to by Sauron. Nazgul don't fit into boring hack and slash settings, and though I actually quite liked the idea of telling the tale of how the kings of men fell under Sauron in Minas Morgul, judging by cutscenes I have scene it's more a case of them being tricked and turned into reckless beserkers by the power of their rings. In the books it's clearly more the case that they slowly withered away, much like Gollum did without becoming a wraith.
Also, in both games, the idea of Cerebrimbor himself being a wraith in the first place is pretty stupid really. He was tortured to death and filled with arrows and left on display by Sauron for the elves to see, I don't see why that would turn him into a wraith. As for Isildur being a wraith..... oh dear... just no...
Amen.
Robert Kelly A straight up Nazgul like they did does not make sense no, but his spirit remaining as some form of Wraith due to the Ring’s corruption would actually make some sense, as a way of showing how the ring poisoned both his body and his very soul
Sauron would probably not have minded the Balrogs, and the Valaraukar would have probably accepted his authority. Sauron ruled Angband while Morgoth was playing jailbird, and the balrogs evidently had no issue with answering to him.
Oh man that would suck IF IT WAS CANON
As far as I know, Celebrimbor’s body was used like a weird banner for Sauron’s armies, and used to demoralize Elrond and his army.
To me, it makes sense that they can make a new ring because Celebrimbor did originally make the rings of power so its not crazy that he can make another one.
I like to think of the games as an alternate timeline in the story. Like the stuff with the hobbit and lord of the rings still happen and all that other lore stuff. Just shadow of war puts its own little twists on the timeline, that break the original, but also explains a lot of things.
I think monolith just wanted a nazgul with a hammer, and Helm being the "Hammer-Hand" makes him the obvious choice no matter how lore breaking it may be
I actually like that they changed it. It feels good see something else besides the main story line. This video sounds like he just didn't like the game and was mad about how they did things. Also if it's not canon what does matter if they broke lore.
yeah this guy just sounds like a nerd
Honestly i think it easily can be lore to an extent as tolkien has been dead for 47 years so honestly no one tell me whats canon and whats not anymore
Weak ass lotr fans here
@@IcyTorments Wow someone doesn't read books it seems
It could make sense that orcs could possibly use magic, since they originate from elves who were bastardized by torture. So it's not totally unbelievable that they could wield dark magics.
Another thing that should be pointed out is that Celebrimbor is present when Sauron offers the ring to Helm, which completely throws out the timeline of his existence and death in the middle part of the Second Age.
*grabs popcorn*
Another point I'll add: the game seems to fundamentally misunderstand why the lesser rings were even created in the first place. The Elves did not create them to bring "order" to the peoples of Middle-earth, as Celebrimbor says after the Helm Hammerhand flashback. The Elves created them with the power to *preserve*--to prevent change, to decelerate what they viewed as decay. Being immortal, the Elves wanted to shape their environments to be long-lasting, and to that end, they planned to keep and use the rings themselves. Sauron--who yes, took on a fair physical form and called himself Annatar--helped Celebrimbor forge the rings with another secret purpose in mind: domination (of the Elves in particular). He made sure each of the lesser rings was crafted in a way that their holders could be controlled by the holder of the One Ring to rule them all, which he crafted secretly in Mordor. Indeed, the holder of the One Ring could perceive and control the very thoughts of people who held lesser rings. But when Sauron put on the One Ring, the Elves sensed what he was trying to do, and they immediately took the lesser rings off their fingers. Sauron hadn't expected this. Enraged, he sent an army to destroy Celebrimbor's home and retrieve the lesser rings. He succeeded in retrieving 16 lesser rings; 3 evaded him and were sent to other Elves, and Celebrimbor refused to reveal their locations. Sauron then killed Celebrimbor, and only THEN did he start distributing the 16 lesser rings he had retrieved--7 to Dwarves, 9 to Men. He figured that he might not be able to use the One Ring to dominate Elves who held lesser rings, but he might be more successful in dominating the minds of Dwarves and Men. He was only partially correct. The Dwarves were too hardy and could not be dominated. But the nine Men were indeed dominated, and they eventually became the ringwraiths--the Nazgul. Turning into wraiths was a side-effect of the lesser rings' power to preserve--the rings "preserved" their holders as wraiths.
The game drastically changes all of this. There is no hint that any of the lesser rings was created to preserve; they are only shown as instruments of domination, even when Celebrimbor and Annatar first made them.
But... they _were_ instruments of domination? Just because Sauron told them the rings would preserve things (which, you know... they also did, considering the Ringwraiths are still alive-ish) doesn't mean that was their primary purpose. Why would we see their fake, purported abilities (long after the original deception, when it might have mattered), when the game is focused on the domination aspect... which they also had? I'd hardly call that a drastic change, simply a tonal shift.
In The Silmarillion and his letters, Tolkien stated that the Elves created the lesser rings with the purpose of preservation. Sauron worked with Celebrimbor to make 16 of the lesser rings, and he secretly had other purposes (domination) in mind when he was helping craft them--these 16 rings he later stole from Celebrimbor and further tampered with them before distributing them to Dwarves and Men. So yes, because of Sauron's involvement, these 16 rings could be used to both preserve and to dominate. But that was entirely because of Sauron's meddling. The Elves' motivation for creating the rings was to preserve their own realms. The 3 other lesser rings--those that were eventually held by Elrond, Galadriel, and Gandalf--never were touched by Sauron, and thus they could not be used for domination.
The drastic change the game makes is declaring that a power-crazy Celebrimbor created the rings with Annatar/Sauron to "bring order" to Middle-earth, and it has the two of them distributing the rings to others (like Helm Hammerhand) to achieve this purpose. This is far from a tonal shift. In the books, the Elves never wanted to use the rings to dominate others, and they certainly never distributed the rings to other races. The game changes the Elves' fundamental purpose for the rings, and along with it, the entire history of the rings.
You kind of answered your own point. It's Celebrimbor who does these things, not the 'Elves' as a race. The games did an excellent job of showing us his slow slide into power-mad control-freak - from being initially deceived by Annatar, to the realisation of betrayal, his war against Sauron (in both lives) and his eventual betrayal of Talion. (And yes, I know that in the books Celebrimbor had nothing to do with the 16 lesser rings and delegated the task to Eregion smiths - but if we're not accepting the premise that Celebrimbor had a direct hand in all of the rings of power as the game shows, then all the other lore bending become somewhat irrelevant anyway)
All i'm saying is that the game didn't (purposefully or otherwise) 'misunderstand' the secondary purpose of the rings, it just chooses to focus on their primary purpose as dictated by Sauron's corrupting influence as it's 1) more relevant 2) allows for the otherwise difficult to implement gameplay aspects and 3) makes for a better story.
But yes, I will concede that the somewhat unexplained motivations behind presenting the Kings of men with rings of power _with_ Sauron (as opposed to that coming after Sauron realised they wouldn't work on Elves) is a bit confusing. I assume that Annatar explained some kind of plan that made sense at the time (He's the Deceiver, who knows?)
The game indicates that domination was a motive not just Sauron had in making the rings, but also Celebrimbor. After the Helm Hammerhand flashback, Celebrimbor justifies standing by Sauron in distributing the rings to the kings of men because "Those rings were meant to bring order." That's his direct quote, and it indicates that Celebrimbor had a domination motive when he created the rings--well before the game's events. He does also complain that he was "deceived" by Sauron, sure--presumably because Sauron wanted to dominate even him. He then doubles down, consoling Talion by noting that at least this time, "It is not noble men we are dominating, but savage Orcs." So Celebrimbor made the rings "to bring order" to Middle-earth and dominate "the minds of noble men." This is a radical change to the lore. I'd have much preferred if they had maintained the original story and instead showed Celebrimbor falling into a power-crazed state during the game rather as he gained more and more power--rather showing him as having tyrannical motivations since the time he forged the rings.
Maybe don't criticise the game for misunderstanding things when you yourself are confusing the Three Rings with the other Sixteen, and both with the lesser rings (of which there were many). The Three Rings were made without Sauron's knowledge or involvement, and numerous lesser rings were also created before the Elves mastered the craft of ring-making. Further, while it's true that the primary power of all the rings was preservation, they also "enhanced the natural powers of a possessor - thus approaching ‘magic’, a motive easily corruptible into evil, a lust for domination." It's not too much of a stretch to think Celebrimbor might have fallen to their influence, especially after his time under Sauron's power.
Also, Sauron only retrieved 15 of the 16: the Nine he captured immediately, and Celebrimbor revealed the locations of another 6 after succumbing to torture. The 16th had already been given (by Celebrimbor himself) to Durin III, at least according to dwarven tradition. The fact that multiple such traditions exist mean there is still room here for changing the story slightly without "breaking" the lore. The history we know may not be the full truth.
Minas Ithil actually fell (and turned to Minas Morgul) third age 2002, after being laid siege for a total of two years (the beginning of the siege happening in T.A 2000). The “Fall of Minas Ithil” referenced is a battle in S.A 3429, that forced Gondorians out of the city and eventually sparked the War of the Last Alliance, after which they did reclaim the city. Two different battles
So to summarize: this battle was not moved thousands of years forward in time.
Sauron forged his own ring of power by the way, the elves didn't help him, he literally forged the One ring in SECRET, nobody knew about it, until it was waaaaaaay to late.
Make a video about the six times it did NOT brake the lore.
Great game though, 140 hours on record, would recommend.
Impossible
'I know this game isn't canon but I'm going to now proceed about many things that break the canon'
doiiiiii.
I'm trying to learn as much about the lore of lotr at the moment as I possibly can and there is one question that bother me. In the game they say that there is a never ending fight inside saurons eye between sauron himself and celebrimbor.. is that true?
Minas Ithil fell on 2002 Third Age not SA 3429. What you're referring has happened during the war of the last alliance.
I would have liked it if this games story was actually the lore of the main story arc. It's so damn interesting. I am dying to see sequel as calibrimbor escapes after blade of galadriel DLC.
Wow, Monolith's explanation to Johnny about Shelob actually made me even angrier than I was already.
where's the clip in 4:20 from?
It's established that SoW totally strayed from the lore, and well SoM was something a bit better in reinvention save the complications and conflicts with Necromancy. I've been thinking about it for a while. And now I realize the Ring of Celebrimbor could work for a 3rd entry for The Shadow of Middle-Earth series possibly Shadow of The Ring, that could take place in the later period of Tolkien's unfinished sequels, the years post War of the Rings, one of which is titled The New Shadow.
Also, what the hell is Gollum doing in SA 3429?
He got the ring in TA 2463.
The games take place in the Third age though...
Eh, cuz everyone loves Gollum, and he's played by Liam O'Brian you can't go wrong.
Because its non cannon.....
lets just say this happens in a different multiverse lol
middle earth - 616 perhaps
It's based in the movie universe I think. That's why it doesn't line up with Tolkien Law
Well isildur did fall pray to the one Ring's influence so I can at least see him becoming a nazgul, but I've never heard or looked up when all nine original nazgul appeared and the fact that with only 2 being official named leaves a lot of room for future stuff.
4:18 anybody know where this video is from?
Not to put to fine a point on it, but lets be honest. The whole game is lore-breaking.
Wraiths do NOT posses people, they kill them and drain their life. They do not retain their personalities either, no matter what race they are or how important they were in life. the whole franchise would have J.R.R. Tolkien screaming in rage for days if he saw it.
But its a game. Enjoy it for what it is.
That really depends the type of person he is. I know personally I wouldn’t mind if a game took a world I created and changed it as long as it was amazing and made it clear that it wasn’t canon. This game has done both
Your Lord and Savior - Balrog No it hasn't, they keep attempting to justify that the game is still mostly lore friendly from what I've seen. He also didn't seem to happy when people adapted his works to fit their own ideas.
Tolkien was extremely particular about his work. When they made the 1st LOTR, Hobbit Movies/Cartoon he was so appalled by it that he refused to sell the rights to his other works. BTW this is why we don't have movies about the 1st and 2nd age.
Extremeredfox Tolkien was a bit dead by the time of the movies.
Ray Mobley, My mistake. Christopher Tolkien who more or less controls the Estate until he dies was appalled by the 2000's films. He said he wouldn't sell the rights to Tolkien's other work.
Actually I think having this kind of "none canon" story added onto Tolkien's world fits in with what he was trying to do with his world. Tolkien wasn't a "fantasy" writer in the way we understand the genre now, instead he was a scholar of mythology and folklore; what he tried to do with his world wasn't to create a 100% coherent fantasy world, rather he tried to create his own mythology so that he can craft his own epic saga(s) in - in the tradition of Anglo Saxon and Germanic Epics.
If you look at traditional epics of all cultures, they take the basic mythological world and build their story within it - but the story of the particular saga takes precedence over perfect continuity. Often you get contradictions and alternative narratives of how events went down - and that is the case in Tolkien's writings as well. I think Tolkien would have been chuffed that someone was creating a new saga utilising his mythology - whether or not he would have been impressed by the story is another matter...
Wasn't the black gates on the west side and miss morgal on the other side of the mountain range
you forget the detail of baranor's character that in gondor there are no men of color that the books do not even mention that among them there have even been, because that is a mistake in terms of the history of the peoples of middle earth.
Bro, Baranor he was born in Umbar as Warad ._.
The first fight with the Nazgul is the best boss fight in the series. Its a shame it doesn't get better after that
One major critique of this video, Monolith explicitly stated that the lore of SoM/SoW is canon within the LOTR Cinematic Universe, not the books. Basically, the movies are one canon, and the books another. Within the canon of the movies, SoM/SoW isn't lore breaking at all.
Its still not canon with the movies (Balrog in Mordor? Completely non canon, Minas Ithil falling after The Hobbit? Non Canon, Helm Hammerhand and Isildur being wraiths? Non Canon. All are non canon to the movies, fuck outta here with that
It’s not canon in any way shape or form to the books/movies or the upcoming TV series lmao. Monolith can try and say what they want, I’m not even gonna bother checking up on if they actually said that because it doesn’t matter (I’m sure Monolith didnt say anything of the sort because they don’t have the authority to make that sort of statement without permission from the LoTR estate or Peter Jackson). Not to mention that the games CONTRADICT the fucking movies as well if you’ve bothered to watch them.
Take this game for what it is, an enjoyable albeit flawed experience. But don’t fool yourself into thinking this ingame universe is in any way shape or form canon to the actual LoTR universe. The movies took certain liberties sure, but they still retained the core plot of the original. This game perverts even the core concepts lol.
@@adittya9002 peter Jackson isn't the one they'd need permission from. They'd need Warner bros permission, which they have. If WB gives Monolith authority to say the games are canon, the games are canon, end of discussion.
"it's a story about love" Tolkien says before we see trolls doing American wrestling moves while explosions happens in the background
Also I don’t remember the public being promised a lore perfect game, and while some of these are rather lore breaking the game is not canon so it is just enjoyable in its form of a different middle earth
Zogs title is eternal not necromancer
smh, he IS a Necromancer.
The inclusion of the nazgul COULD have been really exciting if handled better. Since only two were ever named by Tolkien, monolith had the creative freedom to come up with cool backstories for the other seven. But No. They casually drop isildurs name in for a bit of tension. One of the most legendary human kings is now a wraith? Come on monolith..
What about the others? I mean, if you name three of them, the least you could do is name the rest of the Nine. Don't do it half-baked.
meh legendary... Isildur is overrated. He was merely lucky and then threw away the chance to win the war once and for all. If Sauron made him a Nazgul canonically I wouldn't have cared less
It seems like a lazy choice compared to all the interesting new characters they’ve come up with.
Haven't played the game but in the movies at least he is simply shot by Orcs and loses the ring. I thought you were supposed to slip into the shadow world like Frodo would have, had Elrond not healed him.
Frodo was "slipping into the shadow" because he got stabbed with a morgul blade. And to be fair to Isildur, he only dies that death after fleeing rather than being slaughtered with the rest of his men who were massively outnumbered by orcs.
I think, following the idea explained in the previous comment, the imagery that I see in this looks strikingly at home in Azeroth. Warlock orcs, stormwind soldiers, and Eastern/Western Plaguelands-looking environments.
I find this better than the original lore
Even if the game isn’t accurate. The plot is still really good
You also forgot that they made 2 of the Nazgul women! Complete ruined it for me
what? really? that kinda takes away from the movies the climax of "no man can kill a nazgul" as Eowyn kills him to his surprise being a woman..if 2 nazgul where women already then he wouldn't be surprised of woman warriors..
giorgan maca that translation of "no man can kill me" is wrong as women are still part of the race of men so he was killed by a man
Have to love how you can be up in the tallest tower and still can be hit by a catapult fireball...
Talion can't be Nazgul, if he die in LOTR Trilogy! Aragorn says they are 9 KINGS (The Fallen Kings), Talion is a Captain of Gondor!
Well Shelob in human form looks like Stoya if you know what i mean. 😊
is this game series gonna be a star wars force unleashed where its not canon? Thats kinda looking where its going. Still love the game though
Rokar 686 it never was canon, the only thing that's canon are the books
The difference is the Force Unleashed story made a lot more sense
Channing Callahan force unleashed is a pile of rubbish
Eurogamer also missed out on the 3rd ringwraith named Suldan , who was at the battle of Pelanor field in the Third Age....
The sixth item isn't lore breaking at all, you should probably review the actual history of Minas Ithil. The short version: Yes, Sauron captured it in the Second Age, but his hold on the city was broken only two years later, and then soon after he was defeated by the Last Alliance. He didn't remove the Palantir from the city at this time either, and it didn't become Minas Morgul until it was retaken again by the in the Third Age.
Ok tell me I’m not the only one who would love a game where you play as ringwraith talion during the event of lord of the rings
How are you level 39 doing that quest at the start
007 on the road He probably replayed the mission
One thing I noticed is that in that cut-scene, Sauron came to Hammerhand in the guise of Annatar. He should no longer be able to take that form after his body was destroyed with Númenor
Not to mention that Celebrimbor was with Sauron when Helm received the ring. Celebrimbor got killed halfway through the Second Age.
I'm actually fine with the ending. Only 2 of the Nazgul were ever named (witch king of angmar and his second in command). Who says Talion couldn't have been one of them?
Well good thing it’s not cannon
I'll tell you the most Lore-Breaking fact of them all. The fact that you can dominate Orcs and Uruks and Trolls, to fight for you aka "The Good Side" is absolutely mad..
well its more of a lesser evil then good as both Talion and Celebrimbor are both driven by the need for revenge and see them as merely tools Celebrimbor is the worse as he is not only using Talion as shown in shadow of mordor but betrays and abandons him when he finds what he thinks is a better host
I just heard about the nazgul in the appendices it said "after you kill a nazgul it goes bakc to its physical form" so thats why i had the reason why witch king didn't get back to his physical form because his nazgul ver. Was his physical form
this siege of minas ithil takes place in 2002 TA because the date you mention is a date of a siege, yes, but not the siege where minas morgul is created. It's still a lore break though since gollum mentions baggins in the first game and this event takes place 940 years prior to the hobbit.