Pos 5 in dota has become super cozy over the years, between backpack and tp slot unclogging your inventory, neutral items and tormentors giving you free power, and extra gold from bounties, stacks and dewards allowing you to buy all the cheap support items that keep you alive, you get to actually play the game Always fun to get items for a role that was balanced around having no items
I remember when it wasn't uncommon for heroes like Shadow Demon, Crystal Maiden, Rhasta etc. to have just Brown Boots and Force Staff at 60 minutes. Support is definitely in a much better spot now than it was even 5 years ago.
And adc with 14 assits whuch in terms of gold like 21 cuz,you get 150 for assist adn 300 for *your* cut,but still complain cuz you got 450 gold and not 300 how you wanted!
I love tree and his free wards since dota 1 but lately I just suck at laning with him like I can't deny, I can't trade properly, and I feel my only use is using my passive to easy pull creeps or block spawn@@unknownsource1485
5:57 You didn't mess up the pull, it's called a half pull which is a really good strat when you want the lane to push towards you in the safelane. It also ensures the death of the ranged creep, since there's only 1 melee to tank the camp.
Oh the half pull was intentional, but it's just ironic that I'm also talking about how ranged heroes don't need to talk chip damage when pulling while I'm taking damage as a ranged hero
"not the hardest role" dota support: warding, detection, pulling, stacking, counting time for bounty runes, wisdom runes, lotus, and roshan, leaving core to gank/countergank opposite ur lane, coordinate smoke plays, break enemy smoke plays, buying 6 active items to help team
@@RuRu0091 6 slotted pos 5 supp is not that rare. I’ve had to make pos 4 do the wards because im full slot lol This is because pos 5 buys all the cheap aura and active items. If you’re winning, items come to you like nothing
@@RuRu0091@RuRu0091 i've had games where i played undying or chen or venge and i got 5 items by minute 25 as chen: greaves, forcestaff, glimmer cape, solar crest/drums of endurance, pipe of insight, as venge: arcane boots, vladimir's, solar crest, forcestaff, glimmer cape, as undying, arcane boots, mekansm, holy locket, solar crest, force staff,
Suport is the hardest role and any Core players that disagree just dont know enough Support mechanics that are required. Even Guardian pos5 are expected to and actually know stack and pull mechanics
One key difference in dota for supps imo is that supports can easily hard counter other roles, with the existence of talents, aghs shards snd scepters, you are never safe from a surprise new/upgraded spell that turns the team fight around.
its like, an oracle pick will ruin the entire laning phase for a dark seer offlane. you can never have an ion shell going for more than 5 seconds if there's an oracle
I have to say this channel is a true gem. I main support in league and I enjoy playing for macro a lot and having knowledge about mechanics and strategy. This channel gives very insightful and unbiased information about DotA which I love hearing about. On top of that it's about time the community of the two biggest mobas stop hating eachother for no reason. Thank you for all the amazing videos and I can't wait until you inevitably become big! :D
The hating started when lol came out and the main forum for dota was taken down and placed lol adverts as a replacement in hopes dota players would drop dota and move to lol, along with it the community ideas and concepts was also taken to riot. Some concepts actually made it into lol, imagine being called a copycat when the one saying that are using concepts that your community created. Also almost confirmed rumours that twitch was suppressing dota and needing always manually search it unlike any other games, which also suddenly happened to csgo back 2019/20 but then suddenly stops after the twitch riot deal ended. And riot employees slandering dota with aged info from 2013/15, there's videos out there. There is lots of reason why each playerbase hate each other.
Having watched the video, I would say it is quite fantastic. You somehow manage to make 10-15 minute videos extremely informative and in-depth. As someone who only plays League, I thoroughly appreciate the insight into Dota 2.
@@Dan-pv1sg I grew up playing these games, and right now I'm treating content creation as a full time thing just to see if I can make it. Long way to go, but the results are looking good for a channel that's only two months old!
5:50 is not a messed up pull, its half-pulling and it is mostly better than full pull, because you still provide your pos1 an option to control the creep equilibrium by giving him 2 creeps
Oh yea, the half pull was intentional, but taking unnecessary damage from neutrals, especially when I'm talking about "ranged heroes don't get chip damage from pulling" is just ironic
From my experience playing in both games, league supports have streamlined economy and builds, as well as rotations being more reliant on junglers. Dota, on the other hand, requires lots of micro and macro management in map control, item builds, and shotcalling early-mid game ganks as well as dealing with a carry that has lesser eyes than faceless void and blaming everyone because he overextended in farming (he went to enemy's triangle despite our neutral camps are well-lit with sentries and observer wards)
Granny's full shotgun, Windranger's Shackle-Run and Disruptor *get back here* were my favorite builds to play when I used to have discipline, patience and awareness.. Such nostalgia Now I'm just wacky, suicidal and arrogant.
Made me smile hearing that last part, I usually play jungle support or just fill in league because I love the characters but also to help make sure everyone gets the role they want. As for Dota I love playing a support because they can be helpful in ways that break the game, I fell in love with dazzle because my friend wouldn't die and if he left lane I'd hold tower
As a leona main in league And an earth spirit/disruptor main in dota I agree to this The enemy team will praise u more for a good play/set While ur team praise ur adc/pos 1 for wiping out the enemy
At 5:50 that's a "half-pull", which is a better alternative to the pull because the range creep is for sure denied and the enemy creeps don't swarm the pos 1 into the tower, creating an opportunity to kill them. Plus, if you pull the entire wave, you create the possibility to shove the wave, since until your creeps kill the camp the other creep wave may arrive and the enemy creep wave dies in the tower.
And then... There's me, as an AP Twitch support OTP, roaming around the map, forgetting my adc exists and winning games by making sure NO ONE in the enemy team is having more fun than my solo ADC in botlane.
As a dota player one thing that is hard for me to understand is how do supps in LoL even carry when they decide to. The supports can not carry the game past 20-25 minute mark unless they opened all/almost all enemy t2. Exceptions may be some characters like Enchantress or Snapfire, but they come online at the very late stages of the game usually.
Because you get to play champs that are like a combo of earth spirit and bounty hunter (Pyke), sniper (and go an autoattack build, which is senna), or Zeus and buy mage items (brand, velkoz, zyra). Zeus may not even be the best example, it’s more like veno. Its a champ that is really easy to kill, but if you do kill it, generally it means it got off a bunch of key spells that end up doing a fuckton of damage, and you killed their support. You also tend to be like 2 levels behind rather than like 8 lol
well the same way a pos3/4 can carry. making space. but if you mean literally, theres a fuck ton of damage supports and generally the damage in league is really high. pair that with abilities scaling with stats and you can sometimes just one shot enemies. sometimes even tank supports can atleast chunk someone decently while chain ccing them for 3 secs.
0:19 I have to disagree (For dota 2), Support IS the hardest role. There is a reason that in professional dota 2, The captain is always position 5. Supports have immense impact early on in dota 2 (Idk about league but probably true too) and they dictate the game. If the support plays bad, His carry may not reach his late-game power spike due to there simply being no late game. Supports have to do complex machinations like blocking enemy pull camps, Unblocking their own pull camps, Pulling with their pull camps, Making the correct decision on when to leave lane, When to gank, Place wards well in mid game, Press their buttons right. in conclusion, I'd say that support is the most important role in dota 2.
Immortal pos 5 dota player here. I feel like you really oversimplified support itemization at 9:38. First of all, I would not consider Aeon Disk or Ghost Scepter to be "popular support items" in Dota because they are really only required for very specific match-ups like against PA or Nyx, respectively. Similarly, Eul's is not really very popular as a defensive item as you describe it-since it prevents you from moving or using any abilities, making you an easy target once you come down. It can be used this way, but it is more often used as a stun/utility item to set-up your combos or take out one of their heroes from the fight to isolate targets.I would say most games I only buy 1 defensive item, and sometimes none. Obviously, this will vary a lot depending on your hero, for example: - On Treant Protector I often buy Blink and Refresher to enable my powerful ultimate if my team needs teamfight power. Other games, I buy Shard and Meteor Hammer if we just need to push towers. - On Venomancer, I like to buy Spirit Vessel and Aghs for percent-based damage against tanky lineups. But other games I will rush Vlads and Grieves to provide auras and sustain to my carry. - On Vengeful Spirit, I often buy Aether Lens and Drums to help land my ult and improve my team's burst-damage output when we have a strong ganking lineup. Other games, I will buy Solar Crest and Lotus Orb when my team is squishy and getting chain-controlled. Even this is a vast oversimplication of my actual itemization strategies, and what particular build I go for is always a bit of experimentation and creativity.
This is a very insightful comment, thanks for taking the time to write this out! This really shows how itemization in Dota just requires a lot more thinking to really get the most out of your gold, especially compared to League where the items are more or less the same every game depending on your champ, with very minor variations based on enemy lineup. I can't go into this level of detail into these videos because a lot of info would be lost on the League players who watch them and don't understand much Dota themselves, and the fact that I'm not at this level of play nor do I aspire to be. But as an immortal pos 5, what do you feel is the most important that a support should have, if not discipline?
@@Acex2ron Of course! I look forward to the pos 4 video since I also play that role. For me, the most important skill as a Pos 5 is being able to quickly analyze the gamestate, and intuitively understand where the enemies want to be playing and where your team needs to be playing. I think this is most clear with some examples: - If the enemy has a strong late-game carry like Anti-Mage, Phantom Assassin, and they disappear off the map for 5 minutes, you need to get your team to apply pressure. This means sneaking into the enemy jungle to plant deep wards, and then grouping with your team to smoke gank-then using that momentum to take towers, place more deep wards, and take away the enemy's farming space. On the other hand, if your team has the stronger late-game, you need to stall for time and keep your carry farming. Place defensive wards around the river to spot their ganks, and defend objectives for as long as possible to stop your enemies from taking over the map. When they group up to take an objective, force them to TP back by split-pushing the other lanes or counter-gaking one of their cores that's now isolated. - If the enemy team has a hero that can take Roshan early like Ursa or Troll Warlord, you want to ward the area around the pit a few minutes before they can take it, so that your team can contest it. On the other hand, if your team is getting strong enough take Rosh, then you'll want to place more aggressive wards and smoke gank as they're hitting those timings-that way you can get a pickoff and force the enemy to forfeit Roshan or try to contest it 4v5. If the enemy team has multiple heroes dead, you should push lanes and take more map control instead of killing Roshan-then retreat back and take Roshan after the enemies respawn or use Glyph of Fortification. - If the enemies have big cooldown-based heroes like Faceless Void or Tidehunter, you can't let them use their ults in big teamfights. Make sure you know when they want to fight and be ready to eat a gank if it stops them from getting a good fight on your cores. In teamfights, you need to position passively and let your cores bait them into using these spells, then help them to safely disengage with your control/saves. On the other hand, if you know the enemy can't teamfight against you, you want to position more aggressively: push in their lanes, invade their farming areas, and stun/catch them out of position to force them into a losing fight. If you're on the team with the big cooldowns: save your smokes for when you want to fight, stall lanes when you don't want to fight, and make sure you enable your teamfight heroes with vision/saves to maximize the impact of their spells. As a support in Dota, you can entirely determine how your team plays the map with your use of wards and smokes. Even in lower ranks with bad communication, your teammates will intuitively want to play around your vision and they will want to gank if you run up to them and smoke them. Core players, especially at higher levels, need to spend every spare second of time farming items in order to not fall behind-that's on top of worrying about dodging ganks, knowing if they should TP into fights, itemization, and often playing the more technically demanding heroes (although there are some very technically difficult support heroes like Chen, Enchantress and Rubick). They simply don't have the spare brainpower to pay attention to these macro-level strategic concerns, which requires paying close attention to hero matchups, item timings, and who has shown where on the minimap. That's why, even at the pro level, the pos 5 is almost always responsible for being the In-Game Leader. It is a very fun position for me because-while the core players are fighting to get gold in order to grow in power-the support players are fighting a battle over information to gain power. Especially in immortal bracket, you know the other supports are coordinating objectives with their team, placing sneaky wards, making smoke attempts, watching you on the minimap, etc. You can't make your plays too obvious or else they will read your smokes and TP out, or they will deward your deep ward, or contest your objective. There's a whole psychological aspect to it that makes "outplaying" another support player feel more like winning a poker hand rather than executing some 500 APM fighting-game combo.
@@jackmccarthy7644 What's your take on meta for support recently? TBH after they expand the map, I believe it's harder to end a game within 30min because carry get more space to farm. I feel like some early to mid game support like CM & warlock is no longer relevant (at least in solo queue pub). Now, I usually pick support that can scale into late game like agha ww, agha willow, right click np, agha grim etc.
@@baldystick3327 I exclusively play solo queue pub and I think early-game supports are very strong. The most popular supports in high MMR pubs right now are Bane, Disruptor, Veno, CM, Io, Ench-all of which have strong early/mid game presence. At the end of the day, every game of Dota becomes much easier if you win the laning stage and that is the job of the supports. Early gold lead advantage helps you take over the map, get kills, and get a bigger gold lead. There are a lot of heroes like Timber, Viper, Tiny, Clinkz that RELY on getting that early advantage and become borderline useless if forced to play from behind-not to mention the psychological advantage in pubs of players flaming and giving up when they fall behind early. To be honest, I would never play Aghs WW, Right-Click NP or Aghs Grim and consider that to be borderline griefing your team. Aghs Willow is only playable from pos 4 and it is still very sketchy-you should plan on building normal support items 90% of your games and only build Aghs when you know the game will go long and your team needs the damage. I know it may feel like playing a greedy build is the only way to have an impact in the late game... but as a support that it is kinda your job to sacrifice your late-game scaling to make early game plays. Sure, 1 out of every 10 games it will feel great because you will be at 40 minutes doing just as much damage as the carry-but in the other 9/10 games you will lose because you did not have enough early game power to stop the enemy team from taking over the map.
"You see the 5 million $ echo slam, but not the ice vortex that made it happen" - Holy ngl i never thought of it. Maaaan, im gonna need to show some more love and respect to my pos 5s on my next pubs, they are the unsung heroes.
While I don't outright disagree with the sentiment of "All pos 5s are interchangeable in the sense that they all can do what is required of a pos 5," I do think it is a gross oversimplification. Even the example you gave of jugg + a meta pos 5=kill lane isn't entirely correct, since there are a lot of more passive supports (SD, Oracle, Warlock to name a few) that might be meta at some point but really struggle to get kills. It is also true that safelane hero combos tend to be less important, but I would say that's more so because the objective of safelane is usually just to scrape by than because the heroes can all do the same things. That being said, the meta supports will always be at least somewhat informed by the meta carries (and sometimes vice versa). If Drow is meta, you can bet that Treant and Undying will show up with her because of their strong lane synergy as well as their ability to enable drow through vision, frontlining, and teamfight disruption. However, it's also true that a lot of pos 5's duties, pulling and trading with the enemy 4, can be accomplished by anyone, and that the biggest factor in what makes a pos 5 is just how well the hero functions with low economy. So, yeah it's complicated and there is a lot of depth to it, and while I don't think the video really had the space to go super in depth into the role, I do suspect that a league player (or even a newer dota player) seeing this might get the wrong idea. And that's without even going into the nitty gritty of drafting and team comp. Also, I definitely would not say that most people know how to play support, and that the problem is a lack of discipline. Maybe I just focus harder on this as a result of being a support main in both games at one point, but I see a ton of supports who very clearly have no idea of proper warding, laning, or even what the hell their role in the game is. You really feel it as a carry when your support is a do nothing sandbag, too; in both games atm the lane is won much more by the support than the carry. Oh, and something interesting I've found is that both games seem to be converging on a point where the amount of agency in the support role is the same between them. In the past, even in the days of sheer poverty, I actually would have said that supporting in dota is the more impactful of the two, since dota supports tended to have much more early game kill pressure and play making potential, as well as inherently stronger spells and stronger defensive items lessening the burden of low economy, with the relatively higher impact of strong vision control in dota being a factor as well. Then league supports started getting even more gold, sightstone was removed, mage supports started gaining relevancy out of low elo, pyke and senna were added, and recently gold generation from the support item because high enough for supports to start having quite of bit of scaling and carry potential of their own (and of course you have the patches where a double marksman botlane was meta even at high elo, but these seem to be an aberration so long as none of them are named senna). Now both games feel like they are in the same spot, where most support characters are lane/early game focused, but have a chance to get money and manage to scale as the game goes later. Though, while this might be my greater dota experience talking, I still think dota has a greater abundance of playmaking supports and hard scaling supports.
Supports in dota, even pos 5, still have some variety. It's not just ranged spellcasters and healers. Tusk is pretty good with a ranged hero like drow, and he has abilities that are useful regardless of how much gold he has. Marci and Dawn have pretty strong laning and can also provide good utility with their spells. I even played primal beast as pos 5 just because of his pretty strong early game and reckless suicidal playstyle. Of course, such picks aren't always viable, but I think they have their place. After all, we're not talknig about pro play exclusively. And in pubs even the infamous pudge pos 5 can have a pretty good game.
I agree, but for the sake of my sanity, these videos only really cover the conventional heroes. If we were to take into account every off meta pick in both games, I would spend way too much time talking about why they work
i mean yeah but they are really uncommon. league also has extreme variety in possible supports. i mean ashe (alibaba drow) and miss fortune (no counterpart) are both hard carries that have become pretty viable supports. generally I'd say dota system just gives more ability to try out different builds. one of my faves to this day is doom doom. just play like a dum dum (hehe) press every button you own and walk away.
@@RuneKillerz109 true. League has some interesting stuff as well, with marksmen supps and stuff like that. I'm pretty sure Sset was a viable support pick on release. But maybe it's because his stats were unbalanced or something like that. In dota, me and my friends also like experimenting a lot with support role. My friend recently started picking luna pos 5 rushing phylactery and I think he literally won every game. My guy just buffs my damage and spams lucent beams. Although I must admit it felt that enemies were rather weak. I think it has to do something with ranked system update or maybe they just weren't ready for such big brain strats XD
@@savekla dunno what rank you're at but at mid/low elo peeps have no idea how to punish stuff like that but tbh i gotta try phyl stuff in general, the item just completely flew over my head. Also sett is still a viable support it's just that most other tanks do his job waaaaaay better for way less gold ^^
@@RuneKillerz109 my Luna friend is Divine I. And I'm Ancient IV or so. He even had decent games as PA pos5 with phylactery. He rebuilt into regular carry build in late, after the 40 min. So yeah, plenty of people losing to dumb shit even in higher ranks.
My favorite dota pos 5 supports are damage supports. Skywrath, witch doctor, and lategame ench. Feels amazing to solo kill carries or outdamage your team with much less farming gold.
I love supporting in Dota, but in League it just feels so unfun. I usually opt for top or mid, while in Dota I think I'm most often in 4/5. I wonder why it's turned out that way. If I'm support in League it's most fun to just go Xerath or Ahri or some shit and meme
supports in league: ward , deward , heal/shield carry , poke/harass the enemy , occasionally roam to other lanes supports in dota: ward , deward , stack neutrals , pull camps , block camps , help with power and wisdom runes , tp to other lanes with scroll or gate , buy smoke,dust,gem , buy regen for carry , help with securing lotus , buy defensive items for your team
@@shadowraze97 buying defensive items/offensive buff items for your team and helping with objectives and invades are also things a good Support in LoL should be doing. Oh and full lockdown/engage for some champions as well, those guys basically dictate how the laning Phase is played on bot.
@@abogmus8904 true adc never gonna be real carry ever when you have top 3 0 or mid with 15 0 score. idk why league balancing to make every hero can be carry causing adc to have no play in League.
As I played both games I enjoy playing dota 2 support more than league one. Because league is fundamentaly punishes player get hit by skill shots and supports don't really have many choices for saving teammates. But this also punishes player missing skillshots too. And no matter how good you are if other lanes lost, you have really slim chance of coming back to game. However, in dota 2 you have tons of options to save teammates. Missing skill shots is not punishment, instead timing is crucial. And map control depends on wards that supports put around.
support role is more enjoyable ever since they made observer wards free and sentries, dust and smokes cheaper. before you'd walk around as crystal maiden with tranquil boots, a wand, wards and smoke 30 minutes into a game. nowadays with how big the map has gotten, you can just farm camps when nothing is happening.
glimmercape sounds great as a league player but i already know it would be a troll item that can't be removed due to it's role in high level play if we had it
I do love playing support on both games, it's like babysitting. watching ur ADC or ur Safelane Carry grow and make plays makes me proud specially Lulu. (*insert "I raised that kid" meme here.*) plus since I have more control to wards & dewards gives me more control on the map.
offlane role used to be underrated and least popular about 5-6 years ago ...but the recent surge of pro offlaners like Collapse, Ace and ATF had reshaped and revolutionized the role and it is probably most popular role now next to either pos 2 or pos 1
As a support main, I gravitated away from Dota 2 all those years ago specifically because having brown boots at minute 20 with a ward clogged inventory and feeling pressured to essentially take up as little space as possible so everything could go to the hard carry wasn't fun. It didn't help my self esteem much at all. LoL's gold items and free wards made me feel more like I had a real place at the table. If the situation has significantly improved, it might be time to give DOTA another shot. It would be great if I fell in love with it because it seems to run drastically more reliably on my PC than LoL.
It did improve immensely, now it's good if everybody on the team gets some networth and it's much easier to do so for supports now as there is always something to do (and sometimes free farm unattended), hard to say if it will run better than league though because i always thought league looks more bland and simple visually but also runs better for lower end pc because of that.
Supporting in Dota is much better than it was before, but League still has actual "carry" supports where you have a lot more agency. Senna, Pyke, and Lux can still completely take over games whereas the same can't be said for Dota, at least not in the Pos 5 position (and when they're actually building like a Pos 5)
@@Acex2ron hey ace, how about making a poll for your viewers, asking who actually plays (used to play) League more than dota, or dota more than league, or maybe even both at the same time. Im very curious about what's the ratio of your viewers, what do you think about it?
People say it's the easiest role. They say that because they play support AFK in the trees soaking exp to then chainfeed because "Supports are supposed to die".
I play support, but is mostly because it is the most action packed role... i am too impatient to farm as carry, while mid and offlaner are too rigid (have to push lane, but have to gank after certain level) Support has the freedom to go everywhere you want whenever you want
half pull is actually better if haven't stacked the camp, since full wave would clear the camp and go back to lane losing maybe 1-2 creeps and ranged creep being alive, so you didn't mess it up
The role that gets most shit in dota from teammates, not by far, because positions 1-2 also, but anyways... And I hate playing it. It's probably the second most difficult role after pos 2, and just as you said in the video, it's heavily underrated by your teammates. The first year of learning dota I played position 5 every game and suffered mentally + learning and remembering what I need to do, while also trying to do it properly was extremely difficult. Still haunts me when I recall memories 6 years after. Glad I switched to position 4 and got good at it, and few months ago started learning position 1, which is the by far the easiest role in game. Might sound crazy, but yeah, the hero with the most money on the map is the easiest to play with, even considering the responsibility that comes with it.
Support in dota is the hardest role. and unless you actually try to main support from a carry perspective you'll understand. what support in dota basically means is your in charge about every other's game. its like among us where your fixing a ship. theres multiple different task, too many to list. even feeding (shielding your carry from ganks) is a job. and pos 5 supports ganks too, it's pretty often nowadays.
So like support in LoL? I don't know where the misconception of supports being easy came from but support has more jobs to do than any roles in both games unless your yumi the you can afk and your still winning
@@minnelcandelario6893 ""Ward the map Invade mid/jg help their carry as much as possible to get golds / help other teammates""" Is this... the entire list? Only 3 tasks? Supports in dota need to: Ward the map Invade mid/jg help their carry as much as possible to get golds / help other teammates stack camps pull lane contest wisdom rune secure bounty runes secure healing lotus capture watchers coordinate smoke ganks initiate tormentors contest power rune farm dangerous lanes break enemy smoke ganks up block jungle spawns ...I was thinking of more but actually that's about it. It might be that dota's supports have too MUCH to do, but it's the hardest role in the game by a huge margin. The only reason that supports don't get to farm that much in dota, is because they have too many other responsibilities to do.
Pos 4 Hoodwink (on my last patch played) won the split push game by default if there wasn't a better active split pusher on the other side. Still need 4 other roles to win. Unfortunately, no amount of macro-mechanics and clutch teamfight ability uses beats your other 4 barrelling mid for 20 minutes mid game, keeping their lives on cooldown.
Not when the support numbers up to the fifties in assists, especially when it's just one support in the game that manages to reach that many. No one is stupid enough to ignore that
My Crystal Maiden effigy is titled "Support 4 life" I always prefer the support role over the carry role cause I'm prepared to die to keep my team alive and win team fights.
Typically jungle players are the most vocal, since they have the most impact on the map, and are needed for most plays on the map. Drafting in league is a lot more "simple" i guess, and is almost always done by the the coach of the team with less focus on players drafting.
In Dota as I've heard at top level it's usually supports at the start because they don't need to hyper focus on micro and farm optimisation, but can focus on macro movements. In the end game though when the carry gets farmed enough to carry often he gets to shotcall whenever he feels like having a good timing/opportunity and playing around the biggest team powerspikes is crucial.
@@kjyuu mean the draft order? Ofc first someone picks the supports, so the last pick is for the midlaner or the adc/ hard carry. You don't want to be outdrafted
@@kocheng1672 oh. In that case, the cores still do the shoutcalls. Usually, the midlaner calls for smoke ganks. Sometimes is the offlaner who calls for objetives.
@@shaodk5059 In Dota, this isn't the case all the time. You don't want to first pick your supports immediately all the time since counter picking is more prevalent in Dota. Certain support heroes can counter even the enemy ADC/Hard carry the whole game even if the enemy is super farmed and some hero combos are very good, so you want to pick them both in the same phase of the draft.
I'm not a support fan in league, in fact it's my most hated role, it find it incredibly boring as compared to dota's support, there's really nothing to do aside from harassing and warding 2-3 bushes every few minutes. Sure you can do a roam but 90% of the time your adc will take that as a go ahead to overextend 1v2 or even 1v3 when the jungle comes to kill him after you gank mid. In dota playing support in lane gives you so much more to do, sure you have to harass and control vision but also, pull, stack, block/unblock camps, play for objectives like runes and lotuses, gank other lanes with TP and gate etc. Plus dota's support items are much much more interesting than league's support items. And I love nothing more than making the enemy team's lane and teamfight hell by playing warlock, shitting out all my spells and quietly casting upheavel while in stealth while they all can barely move and are swarmed by my team and my demons. I mean pyke's execute is fun but it's not making them suffer so much that they try to jump you every fight after they lost that teamfight and ignore your team who wipe them out.
3:05 mana pots were also present in old league, that gameplay was not healthy for the game as the emphasis for league is that you get punished for missing a skillshot
Cap, everybody knows that supports are the mothers who constantly feed our baby carries in early game. If that don't scream important role than i don't think anything would.
I absolutely don't mind playing support in Dota. I kinda enjoy it because of the lowers pressure of farm and other things. Buuuuut... It's just that my main role is off lane and so many people jsut don' picke heroes with stuns, like one hero have a reliable one and one other having an unreliable one, and that's it. Meanwhile the enemy team has a Faceless Void, Snapfire, Lion, and whatever else, because that's already enough stuns. Some people try to play utility or pushing off lane, but they don't know how.
Anyone as in ANYONE I personally know says that support in dota 2 is literally the most impactful role , especially pos 4 (my rank isnt that high crusader, equivalent of low gold ). Some may argue offlaner in this current meta, but just reading your title gets me abit confused, in fact most people say that carry is probably the least impact now.
In League Support is far from Underrated especially in Season 14. Its the strongest Role in the game and has become Jg but better and easier. 1. Supp 2.Jg 3.Mid 4.ADC 5.Top. Top is doing the worst for years now and has seen Supports on it that just leave the lane multiple times. Support used to be giga broke and just work with base kits and stats like Ali. Nowadays its not to uncommen for a support to solo kill a laner or give half HP shields. I personally wish Support would be poor again and no support items just Sight stone for 800g that everyone can buy.
Btw one thing i find funny is that people often say that supps/healers are really chill, social and like to help others... not me tho. I just be the one who allows you the sweet sweet release of eternal rest my little pawn. WoW fucked me up a bit too good...
"they have the most gold" sure, "the most agency", As a veteran support player in league who has also played mid , top, and jungle, This is a rather dubious line, but overall id say the agency of support is almost to the same level as the jungler (the junglr has the most agency of all in the game), carries actually have comperatively little agency until late game if they don't snowball early, they farm, and farm, and farm, and if they are lucky, I will set up kills for them, or at least try to keep the enemy off them etc. Most carries are married to this order until 15-20 minutes in, and even then often rely on me or other teamates to do anything, Dota 2, on the other hand I have little experiance in to comment on, but no, support has quite alot of agency, they quite literally rule botlane, are often a big threat to the jungler, and often are some of the most dangerous champions in the early game on that side of the map as well (level 3 leona will straight up outdps+outank many champs etc).
For dota's case it's not really true. You said league's support has almost as much impact on the game as the jungler? Well dota has no jungler, instead there are 2 supports. You can think of them as a hybrid between the two roles, you harass the other guys, heal their guy, pull weird shenanigans with the jungle monsters, 'generate' additional gold for the core positions, rotate when needed, etc. Their impact is massive... and tbh it's pretty much basic knowledge at this point.
buying controlwards is in most i would say 99% of the time a waste of gold and slots so just know when and where to ward and when and where the enemy is warding. and for the rest just look at the damn map
League support: hyperagressive kid with ADHD and schizophrenia that perma roam entire game, feed, build some random garbage(still manages to build everything because he is rewarded with gold for mere existence) and still manages to have above 50% winrate. Dota 2 support: masochist that knows every ward spot, and timer for camp pulls, starved to death and can barely afford any item and still loses because his carry was counter picked.
Hold on dota's got dedicated healers too! We have... Abaddon! Wait hold on this guy has an attack steroids... and he's immortal for 5s... Uh witch doctor then. Oh wait he has fricking DEATH ward. Omniknight? Bro's job is straight up to 2 tap supports. Chen? He's got global heal right? Nah he and his army is coming for your barracks. Dazzle? Tinker 2.0 Oracle! There we go, a hero with nothing but buffs anc heals, surely he's an enchanter! Hey wait why is he 9/0 at 15 mins? Dude people talk so much about lol being a game for people with main character syndrome. And dota is the team game or whatever. Yet every single 'dota support' are given tools to just fucking kill you lol. And that's not taking items into account
Title is misleading af for dota. Even if you are only a newbie to dota, you know how important that little mofo who lane with you is. (Assumming you are playing core role) And if you get just a little better, you start to feel, know, and realize how obnoxious it is to lane with a bad support on your lane.
You can say all this, but Support in league is completely brainless most of the time... Picks a fucking brand and goes 15/0 because he actually carries the game and not you, and never wards even once
@@Acex2ron out of the top 10 most picked heroes in dota2 right now, only 4 are core heroes, only jugg and PA goes hard carry. I do agree that supp is very underrated in league tho because they don't scale well with items.
Some league supports do scale well. Items = numbers go up means their healing (enchanters) or damage (mages) go up. The problem is league players have some sort of stigma towards the position, to them it's the easiest position in the game, idrk if this is true or not. Meanwhile every dota who knows what the roles in the game are understands p4/5 are the hardest to play in terms of sheer basics.
It actually depends on what sup you play in league, if you play braindead ones like nautilus, zyra, soraka, lux, morgana and brand, sure, free ticket to masters, but if you actually like to play interesting ones, then good luck, because people are not too found of playing along your calls/strat/requirements, for example, i often get people saying that milio and renata glasc are bad suports despite them not even knowing how their main abilities works(renata's W/R and milio's W/R), the main diference in dota and lol, are that everything in dota is balanced simply because everything is too broken, meanwhile, in lol, while riot tries to balance things too much, they end up making half of the champions broken and the other half useless/a worse version of the better champions, for example, riot tried to give diversity to Rell by making her viable in jungle, then, high elo started abusing her and treating her like a perma ganking jg, instead of riot adjusting Rell's number so she would spent less time ganking and more time farming(like nerfing dmg numbers to camps and buffing late game powerspikes like armor, CD and HP so she could be unmatched in teamfights like amumu is currently like)they opted to REMOVE HER VIABILITY IN JUNGLE COMPLETELY, why? You ask? Because: "it has a niche pick who only saw play by a few otps and it was being abused by them."
supports in league: ward , deward , heal/shield carry , poke/harass the enemy , occasionally roam to other lanes supports in dota: ward , deward , stack neutrals , pull camps , block camps , help with power and wisdom runes , tp to other lanes with scroll or gate , buy smoke,dust,gem , buy regen for carry , help with securing lotus , buy defensive items for your team
"they'll see the 5 million dollar echo slam but not the ice vortex that made it happen"
This kinda hit me hard and idk why
It's a cold line, right? I'm glad you liked it
I know right?! I was like damn, that's so true!
Well said, brought tears to my eyes.
And the ensuing Ice Blast as well
That went right through the middle of my heart
Pos 5 in dota has become super cozy over the years, between backpack and tp slot unclogging your inventory, neutral items and tormentors giving you free power, and extra gold from bounties, stacks and dewards allowing you to buy all the cheap support items that keep you alive, you get to actually play the game
Always fun to get items for a role that was balanced around having no items
Yeah, Force Staff, Glimmer Cape, AND Upgraded Boots at 25 minutes? Oldschool players couldn't even imagine how spoiled supports are now
@@Acex2ron Lmao. Flashbacks of the times when supports were running with brown boots, stick and consumables at 25 mins.
I remember when it wasn't uncommon for heroes like Shadow Demon, Crystal Maiden, Rhasta etc. to have just Brown Boots and Force Staff at 60 minutes. Support is definitely in a much better spot now than it was even 5 years ago.
5 years ago was 2019 sir not 2005 @@MrBorderlands123
I love playing support, giga impact with save items, or you say fuck it and get some giga scaling items like sheepstick.
Average Pyke "Support": 17/1/4
Gets Pentakill
"Did I ｓｕｐｐｏｒｔ right?"
The 0/2 Draven with 200+ Adoration Stacks: >:(
Average Brand "Support" for some reason: 15/30/2
And adc with 14 assits whuch in terms of gold like 21 cuz,you get 150 for assist adn 300 for *your* cut,but still complain cuz you got 450 gold and not 300 how you wanted!
Average witch doctor: *death ward+ glimmer cape= rampage*
*"WHY DOES MY SUPPORT DEAL MORE DAMAGE THAN ME!?!??!*
-Says everybody ever
Average Skywrath mage experience:
treant protector with his 100dmage in level 1 lmao
@@Gabe-sp8ml Skywrath Mage be like
Strength: I deal too much damage >:D
Weakness: I deal too much damage and now they have blademail >.>
@@Gabe-sp8ml Enchantress with 4k gold outhitting the ally carry with 20k NW
I love tree and his free wards since dota 1 but lately I just suck at laning with him like I can't deny, I can't trade properly, and I feel my only use is using my passive to easy pull creeps or block spawn@@unknownsource1485
5:57 You didn't mess up the pull, it's called a half pull which is a really good strat when you want the lane to push towards you in the safelane. It also ensures the death of the ranged creep, since there's only 1 melee to tank the camp.
Oh the half pull was intentional, but it's just ironic that I'm also talking about how ranged heroes don't need to talk chip damage when pulling while I'm taking damage as a ranged hero
Honestly, taking a 100 dmg to fix your carrys lane is well worth it, especially since you still had regen.
"not the hardest role"
dota support: warding, detection, pulling, stacking, counting time for bounty runes, wisdom runes, lotus, and roshan, leaving core to gank/countergank opposite ur lane, coordinate smoke plays, break enemy smoke plays, buying 6 active items to help team
Dam u play till supp 6 slotted?😂😂😂
@@RuRu0091 6 slotted pos 5 supp is not that rare. I’ve had to make pos 4 do the wards because im full slot lol
This is because pos 5 buys all the cheap aura and active items. If you’re winning, items come to you like nothing
@@aomafura3374 it still at least 50 min plus
My average matchtime around 30 to 35 minute now
@@RuRu0091@RuRu0091 i've had games where i played undying or chen or venge and i got 5 items by minute 25
as chen: greaves, forcestaff, glimmer cape, solar crest/drums of endurance, pipe of insight,
as venge: arcane boots, vladimir's, solar crest, forcestaff, glimmer cape,
as undying, arcane boots, mekansm, holy locket, solar crest, force staff,
Suport is the hardest role and any Core players that disagree just dont know enough Support mechanics that are required. Even Guardian pos5 are expected to and actually know stack and pull mechanics
One key difference in dota for supps imo is that supports can easily hard counter other roles, with the existence of talents, aghs shards snd scepters, you are never safe from a surprise new/upgraded spell that turns the team fight around.
its like, an oracle pick will ruin the entire laning phase for a dark seer offlane. you can never have an ion shell going for more than 5 seconds if there's an oracle
I remember I played snapfire into witch doctor. Picked up the 175 heal talent at lvl 10 and later it saved my Invoker from dying to maledict.
Like leona and Assassins or Nami and Assassins or Malphite into ad assassins
Bane and ShadowDemon with their bkb piercing ults make me sick to my stomach.
SD with aghs against any passive based core.. I especially love making TAs a melee hero MUHAHAHAA
I have to say this channel is a true gem. I main support in league and I enjoy playing for macro a lot and having knowledge about mechanics and strategy. This channel gives very insightful and unbiased information about DotA which I love hearing about.
On top of that it's about time the community of the two biggest mobas stop hating eachother for no reason.
Thank you for all the amazing videos and I can't wait until you inevitably become big! :D
The hating started when lol came out and the main forum for dota was taken down and placed lol adverts as a replacement in hopes dota players would drop dota and move to lol, along with it the community ideas and concepts was also taken to riot. Some concepts actually made it into lol, imagine being called a copycat when the one saying that are using concepts that your community created. Also almost confirmed rumours that twitch was suppressing dota and needing always manually search it unlike any other games, which also suddenly happened to csgo back 2019/20 but then suddenly stops after the twitch riot deal ended. And riot employees slandering dota with aged info from 2013/15, there's videos out there. There is lots of reason why each playerbase hate each other.
Having watched the video, I would say it is quite fantastic. You somehow manage to make 10-15 minute videos extremely informative and in-depth. As someone who only plays League, I thoroughly appreciate the insight into Dota 2.
Hey this comment means a lot. Thank you for the support!
@@Acex2ron I have to ask, though, how do you have the time to play both Dota and League?
@@Dan-pv1sg I grew up playing these games, and right now I'm treating content creation as a full time thing just to see if I can make it. Long way to go, but the results are looking good for a channel that's only two months old!
@@Acex2ron fascinating. I wish you all the luck, truly. These lane comparison videos have been massively entertaining so far. Can't wait for Jungle
5:50 is not a messed up pull, its half-pulling and it is mostly better than full pull, because you still provide your pos1 an option to control the creep equilibrium by giving him 2 creeps
Oh yea, the half pull was intentional, but taking unnecessary damage from neutrals, especially when I'm talking about "ranged heroes don't get chip damage from pulling" is just ironic
Anyone else play support because seeing bad supports in your game boils your blood?
when u get pos 5 riki with shadow blade
I feel like that's the origin story of all support mains. Either that, or you're a girl.
I play support for 2 reasons
1. Cause I like playing them
2. Cause no one else wants to play them and if I don't we will have a game with 0 supports
@@MetronaJ You just listed the exact reasons why i play pos 5 man xd, seems like all supports share the same mindset
I once got asked my the Midlaner in LoL to switch with him. As I suspected, that guy had no idea how to ward.
From my experience playing in both games, league supports have streamlined economy and builds, as well as rotations being more reliant on junglers. Dota, on the other hand, requires lots of micro and macro management in map control, item builds, and shotcalling early-mid game ganks as well as dealing with a carry that has lesser eyes than faceless void and blaming everyone because he overextended in farming (he went to enemy's triangle despite our neutral camps are well-lit with sentries and observer wards)
Granny's full shotgun, Windranger's Shackle-Run and Disruptor *get back here* were my favorite builds to play when I used to have discipline, patience and awareness.. Such nostalgia
Now I'm just wacky, suicidal and arrogant.
tbh i feel you. i was a top/pos3 main then i went to support and got good. now i suck and play top/pos 3 again...
Made me smile hearing that last part, I usually play jungle support or just fill in league because I love the characters but also to help make sure everyone gets the role they want. As for Dota I love playing a support because they can be helpful in ways that break the game, I fell in love with dazzle because my friend wouldn't die and if he left lane I'd hold tower
As a leona main in league
And an earth spirit/disruptor main in dota
I agree to this
The enemy team will praise u more for a good play/set
While ur team praise ur adc/pos 1 for wiping out the enemy
At 5:50 that's a "half-pull", which is a better alternative to the pull because the range creep is for sure denied and the enemy creeps don't swarm the pos 1 into the tower, creating an opportunity to kill them. Plus, if you pull the entire wave, you create the possibility to shove the wave, since until your creeps kill the camp the other creep wave may arrive and the enemy creep wave dies in the tower.
Just discovered your channel and I love your content.
As someone who played 1k hours in both games this channel is a real gem
And then... There's me, as an AP Twitch support OTP, roaming around the map, forgetting my adc exists and winning games by making sure NO ONE in the enemy team is having more fun than my solo ADC in botlane.
Me a Shaco ap support making my enemy lane guess and other lanes nightmare
supports in dota are straight up bullies in the early stages.
Thanks for the video! I'm not a Dota player, so I never knew what exactly hard supports did in Dota. Now I can watch The International better!
The traumatized support main in me very much needed to hear that "thank you" at the end. Have a sub!
As a dota player one thing that is hard for me to understand is how do supps in LoL even carry when they decide to. The supports can not carry the game past 20-25 minute mark unless they opened all/almost all enemy t2. Exceptions may be some characters like Enchantress or Snapfire, but they come online at the very late stages of the game usually.
Because you get to play champs that are like a combo of earth spirit and bounty hunter (Pyke), sniper (and go an autoattack build, which is senna), or Zeus and buy mage items (brand, velkoz, zyra). Zeus may not even be the best example, it’s more like veno. Its a champ that is really easy to kill, but if you do kill it, generally it means it got off a bunch of key spells that end up doing a fuckton of damage, and you killed their support. You also tend to be like 2 levels behind rather than like 8 lol
well the same way a pos3/4 can carry. making space. but if you mean literally, theres a fuck ton of damage supports and generally the damage in league is really high. pair that with abilities scaling with stats and you can sometimes just one shot enemies. sometimes even tank supports can atleast chunk someone decently while chain ccing them for 3 secs.
@RuneKillerz109 tahm kench moving at you ever so a slowly with full charge 800 stack heartsteal
0:19 as an ADC main i hard agree, what makes or breaks botlane in league are supports
0:19 I have to disagree (For dota 2), Support IS the hardest role. There is a reason that in professional dota 2, The captain is always position 5. Supports have immense impact early on in dota 2 (Idk about league but probably true too) and they dictate the game. If the support plays bad, His carry may not reach his late-game power spike due to there simply being no late game. Supports have to do complex machinations like blocking enemy pull camps, Unblocking their own pull camps, Pulling with their pull camps, Making the correct decision on when to leave lane, When to gank, Place wards well in mid game, Press their buttons right. in conclusion, I'd say that support is the most important role in dota 2.
Pos 5 is 100 times more fun than supporting in League. Disruptor glimpsing people back to base will never get old to me.
Immortal pos 5 dota player here. I feel like you really oversimplified support itemization at 9:38.
First of all, I would not consider Aeon Disk or Ghost Scepter to be "popular support items" in Dota because they are really only required for very specific match-ups like against PA or Nyx, respectively. Similarly, Eul's is not really very popular as a defensive item as you describe it-since it prevents you from moving or using any abilities, making you an easy target once you come down. It can be used this way, but it is more often used as a stun/utility item to set-up your combos or take out one of their heroes from the fight to isolate targets.I would say most games I only buy 1 defensive item, and sometimes none. Obviously, this will vary a lot depending on your hero, for example:
- On Treant Protector I often buy Blink and Refresher to enable my powerful ultimate if my team needs teamfight power. Other games, I buy Shard and Meteor Hammer if we just need to push towers.
- On Venomancer, I like to buy Spirit Vessel and Aghs for percent-based damage against tanky lineups. But other games I will rush Vlads and Grieves to provide auras and sustain to my carry.
- On Vengeful Spirit, I often buy Aether Lens and Drums to help land my ult and improve my team's burst-damage output when we have a strong ganking lineup. Other games, I will buy Solar Crest and Lotus Orb when my team is squishy and getting chain-controlled.
Even this is a vast oversimplication of my actual itemization strategies, and what particular build I go for is always a bit of experimentation and creativity.
This is a very insightful comment, thanks for taking the time to write this out!
This really shows how itemization in Dota just requires a lot more thinking to really get the most out of your gold, especially compared to League where the items are more or less the same every game depending on your champ, with very minor variations based on enemy lineup.
I can't go into this level of detail into these videos because a lot of info would be lost on the League players who watch them and don't understand much Dota themselves, and the fact that I'm not at this level of play nor do I aspire to be.
But as an immortal pos 5, what do you feel is the most important that a support should have, if not discipline?
@@Acex2ron Of course! I look forward to the pos 4 video since I also play that role.
For me, the most important skill as a Pos 5 is being able to quickly analyze the gamestate, and intuitively understand where the enemies want to be playing and where your team needs to be playing. I think this is most clear with some examples:
- If the enemy has a strong late-game carry like Anti-Mage, Phantom Assassin, and they disappear off the map for 5 minutes, you need to get your team to apply pressure. This means sneaking into the enemy jungle to plant deep wards, and then grouping with your team to smoke gank-then using that momentum to take towers, place more deep wards, and take away the enemy's farming space. On the other hand, if your team has the stronger late-game, you need to stall for time and keep your carry farming. Place defensive wards around the river to spot their ganks, and defend objectives for as long as possible to stop your enemies from taking over the map. When they group up to take an objective, force them to TP back by split-pushing the other lanes or counter-gaking one of their cores that's now isolated.
- If the enemy team has a hero that can take Roshan early like Ursa or Troll Warlord, you want to ward the area around the pit a few minutes before they can take it, so that your team can contest it. On the other hand, if your team is getting strong enough take Rosh, then you'll want to place more aggressive wards and smoke gank as they're hitting those timings-that way you can get a pickoff and force the enemy to forfeit Roshan or try to contest it 4v5. If the enemy team has multiple heroes dead, you should push lanes and take more map control instead of killing Roshan-then retreat back and take Roshan after the enemies respawn or use Glyph of Fortification.
- If the enemies have big cooldown-based heroes like Faceless Void or Tidehunter, you can't let them use their ults in big teamfights. Make sure you know when they want to fight and be ready to eat a gank if it stops them from getting a good fight on your cores. In teamfights, you need to position passively and let your cores bait them into using these spells, then help them to safely disengage with your control/saves. On the other hand, if you know the enemy can't teamfight against you, you want to position more aggressively: push in their lanes, invade their farming areas, and stun/catch them out of position to force them into a losing fight. If you're on the team with the big cooldowns: save your smokes for when you want to fight, stall lanes when you don't want to fight, and make sure you enable your teamfight heroes with vision/saves to maximize the impact of their spells.
As a support in Dota, you can entirely determine how your team plays the map with your use of wards and smokes. Even in lower ranks with bad communication, your teammates will intuitively want to play around your vision and they will want to gank if you run up to them and smoke them. Core players, especially at higher levels, need to spend every spare second of time farming items in order to not fall behind-that's on top of worrying about dodging ganks, knowing if they should TP into fights, itemization, and often playing the more technically demanding heroes (although there are some very technically difficult support heroes like Chen, Enchantress and Rubick). They simply don't have the spare brainpower to pay attention to these macro-level strategic concerns, which requires paying close attention to hero matchups, item timings, and who has shown where on the minimap. That's why, even at the pro level, the pos 5 is almost always responsible for being the In-Game Leader.
It is a very fun position for me because-while the core players are fighting to get gold in order to grow in power-the support players are fighting a battle over information to gain power. Especially in immortal bracket, you know the other supports are coordinating objectives with their team, placing sneaky wards, making smoke attempts, watching you on the minimap, etc. You can't make your plays too obvious or else they will read your smokes and TP out, or they will deward your deep ward, or contest your objective. There's a whole psychological aspect to it that makes "outplaying" another support player feel more like winning a poker hand rather than executing some 500 APM fighting-game combo.
@@jackmccarthy7644 What's your take on meta for support recently? TBH after they expand the map, I believe it's harder to end a game within 30min because carry get more space to farm. I feel like some early to mid game support like CM & warlock is no longer relevant (at least in solo queue pub). Now, I usually pick support that can scale into late game like agha ww, agha willow, right click np, agha grim etc.
@@baldystick3327 I exclusively play solo queue pub and I think early-game supports are very strong. The most popular supports in high MMR pubs right now are Bane, Disruptor, Veno, CM, Io, Ench-all of which have strong early/mid game presence. At the end of the day, every game of Dota becomes much easier if you win the laning stage and that is the job of the supports. Early gold lead advantage helps you take over the map, get kills, and get a bigger gold lead. There are a lot of heroes like Timber, Viper, Tiny, Clinkz that RELY on getting that early advantage and become borderline useless if forced to play from behind-not to mention the psychological advantage in pubs of players flaming and giving up when they fall behind early.
To be honest, I would never play Aghs WW, Right-Click NP or Aghs Grim and consider that to be borderline griefing your team. Aghs Willow is only playable from pos 4 and it is still very sketchy-you should plan on building normal support items 90% of your games and only build Aghs when you know the game will go long and your team needs the damage. I know it may feel like playing a greedy build is the only way to have an impact in the late game... but as a support that it is kinda your job to sacrifice your late-game scaling to make early game plays. Sure, 1 out of every 10 games it will feel great because you will be at 40 minutes doing just as much damage as the carry-but in the other 9/10 games you will lose because you did not have enough early game power to stop the enemy team from taking over the map.
Ah lol I yesterday asked for your insights in the pos 4 video to stumble upon this take. Thanks for sharing the tips and insights 😊
I wanted to know the difference between the support role in each game.
Thank you!
"You see the 5 million $ echo slam, but not the ice vortex that made it happen" - Holy ngl i never thought of it. Maaaan, im gonna need to show some more love and respect to my pos 5s on my next pubs, they are the unsung heroes.
While I don't outright disagree with the sentiment of "All pos 5s are interchangeable in the sense that they all can do what is required of a pos 5," I do think it is a gross oversimplification. Even the example you gave of jugg + a meta pos 5=kill lane isn't entirely correct, since there are a lot of more passive supports (SD, Oracle, Warlock to name a few) that might be meta at some point but really struggle to get kills. It is also true that safelane hero combos tend to be less important, but I would say that's more so because the objective of safelane is usually just to scrape by than because the heroes can all do the same things. That being said, the meta supports will always be at least somewhat informed by the meta carries (and sometimes vice versa). If Drow is meta, you can bet that Treant and Undying will show up with her because of their strong lane synergy as well as their ability to enable drow through vision, frontlining, and teamfight disruption. However, it's also true that a lot of pos 5's duties, pulling and trading with the enemy 4, can be accomplished by anyone, and that the biggest factor in what makes a pos 5 is just how well the hero functions with low economy. So, yeah it's complicated and there is a lot of depth to it, and while I don't think the video really had the space to go super in depth into the role, I do suspect that a league player (or even a newer dota player) seeing this might get the wrong idea. And that's without even going into the nitty gritty of drafting and team comp.
Also, I definitely would not say that most people know how to play support, and that the problem is a lack of discipline. Maybe I just focus harder on this as a result of being a support main in both games at one point, but I see a ton of supports who very clearly have no idea of proper warding, laning, or even what the hell their role in the game is. You really feel it as a carry when your support is a do nothing sandbag, too; in both games atm the lane is won much more by the support than the carry.
Oh, and something interesting I've found is that both games seem to be converging on a point where the amount of agency in the support role is the same between them. In the past, even in the days of sheer poverty, I actually would have said that supporting in dota is the more impactful of the two, since dota supports tended to have much more early game kill pressure and play making potential, as well as inherently stronger spells and stronger defensive items lessening the burden of low economy, with the relatively higher impact of strong vision control in dota being a factor as well. Then league supports started getting even more gold, sightstone was removed, mage supports started gaining relevancy out of low elo, pyke and senna were added, and recently gold generation from the support item because high enough for supports to start having quite of bit of scaling and carry potential of their own (and of course you have the patches where a double marksman botlane was meta even at high elo, but these seem to be an aberration so long as none of them are named senna). Now both games feel like they are in the same spot, where most support characters are lane/early game focused, but have a chance to get money and manage to scale as the game goes later. Though, while this might be my greater dota experience talking, I still think dota has a greater abundance of playmaking supports and hard scaling supports.
Bro said sd, oracle and warlock paired with jugg struggle for kills 💀.
Supports in dota, even pos 5, still have some variety. It's not just ranged spellcasters and healers. Tusk is pretty good with a ranged hero like drow, and he has abilities that are useful regardless of how much gold he has. Marci and Dawn have pretty strong laning and can also provide good utility with their spells. I even played primal beast as pos 5 just because of his pretty strong early game and reckless suicidal playstyle. Of course, such picks aren't always viable, but I think they have their place. After all, we're not talknig about pro play exclusively. And in pubs even the infamous pudge pos 5 can have a pretty good game.
I agree, but for the sake of my sanity, these videos only really cover the conventional heroes. If we were to take into account every off meta pick in both games, I would spend way too much time talking about why they work
i mean yeah but they are really uncommon. league also has extreme variety in possible supports. i mean ashe (alibaba drow) and miss fortune (no counterpart) are both hard carries that have become pretty viable supports. generally I'd say dota system just gives more ability to try out different builds. one of my faves to this day is doom doom. just play like a dum dum (hehe) press every button you own and walk away.
@@RuneKillerz109 true. League has some interesting stuff as well, with marksmen supps and stuff like that. I'm pretty sure Sset was a viable support pick on release. But maybe it's because his stats were unbalanced or something like that.
In dota, me and my friends also like experimenting a lot with support role. My friend recently started picking luna pos 5 rushing phylactery and I think he literally won every game. My guy just buffs my damage and spams lucent beams. Although I must admit it felt that enemies were rather weak. I think it has to do something with ranked system update or maybe they just weren't ready for such big brain strats XD
@@savekla dunno what rank you're at but at mid/low elo peeps have no idea how to punish stuff like that but tbh i gotta try phyl stuff in general, the item just completely flew over my head. Also sett is still a viable support it's just that most other tanks do his job waaaaaay better for way less gold ^^
@@RuneKillerz109 my Luna friend is Divine I. And I'm Ancient IV or so.
He even had decent games as PA pos5 with phylactery. He rebuilt into regular carry build in late, after the 40 min.
So yeah, plenty of people losing to dumb shit even in higher ranks.
My favorite dota pos 5 supports are damage supports. Skywrath, witch doctor, and lategame ench. Feels amazing to solo kill carries or outdamage your team with much less farming gold.
even when im 1/10 as pos 5 i get mvp at the end of the game cuz i spent 3k gold on wards/smoke
I love supporting in Dota, but in League it just feels so unfun. I usually opt for top or mid, while in Dota I think I'm most often in 4/5. I wonder why it's turned out that way. If I'm support in League it's most fun to just go Xerath or Ahri or some shit and meme
supports in league: ward , deward , heal/shield carry , poke/harass the enemy , occasionally roam to other lanes
supports in dota: ward , deward , stack neutrals , pull camps , block camps , help with power and wisdom runes , tp to other lanes with scroll or gate , buy smoke,dust,gem , buy regen for carry , help with securing lotus , buy defensive items for your team
@@shadowraze97 buying defensive items/offensive buff items for your team and helping with objectives and invades are also things a good Support in LoL should be doing. Oh and full lockdown/engage for some champions as well, those guys basically dictate how the laning Phase is played on bot.
Support's in lol:
0/25/10
Support's in dota:
*RAMPAGE*
This is true for really bad enchanters, but you've gotta check out Pyke
the lol dupport still had more impact than the adc
@@abogmus8904 lmao
This is true af. Idk about the league part but witch doctor, lich, sand king, earthshaker. Man they're scary af.
@@abogmus8904 true adc never gonna be real carry ever when you have top 3 0 or mid with 15 0 score. idk why league balancing to make every hero can be carry causing adc to have no play in League.
"Force staff is the strongest item in dota"
_Laugh in those bkb that my cores refused to buy that would have won the game_
As I played both games I enjoy playing dota 2 support more than league one. Because league is fundamentaly punishes player get hit by skill shots and supports don't really have many choices for saving teammates. But this also punishes player missing skillshots too. And no matter how good you are if other lanes lost, you have really slim chance of coming back to game. However, in dota 2 you have tons of options to save teammates. Missing skill shots is not punishment, instead timing is crucial. And map control depends on wards that supports put around.
support role is more enjoyable ever since they made observer wards free and sentries, dust and smokes cheaper. before you'd walk around as crystal maiden with tranquil boots, a wand, wards and smoke 30 minutes into a game. nowadays with how big the map has gotten, you can just farm camps when nothing is happening.
tranquil boot? damn you're rich
glimmercape sounds great as a league player but i already know it would be a troll item that can't be removed due to it's role in high level play if we had it
I do love playing support on both games, it's like babysitting. watching ur ADC or ur Safelane Carry grow and make plays makes me proud specially Lulu. (*insert "I raised that kid" meme here.*) plus since I have more control to wards & dewards gives me more control on the map.
The end of the vid made me cry
Thank you T.T
offlane role used to be underrated and least popular about 5-6 years ago ...but the recent surge of pro offlaners like Collapse, Ace and ATF had reshaped and revolutionized the role and it is probably most popular role now next to either pos 2 or pos 1
As a support main, I gravitated away from Dota 2 all those years ago specifically because having brown boots at minute 20 with a ward clogged inventory and feeling pressured to essentially take up as little space as possible so everything could go to the hard carry wasn't fun. It didn't help my self esteem much at all. LoL's gold items and free wards made me feel more like I had a real place at the table. If the situation has significantly improved, it might be time to give DOTA another shot. It would be great if I fell in love with it because it seems to run drastically more reliably on my PC than LoL.
It did improve immensely, now it's good if everybody on the team gets some networth and it's much easier to do so for supports now as there is always something to do (and sometimes free farm unattended), hard to say if it will run better than league though because i always thought league looks more bland and simple visually but also runs better for lower end pc because of that.
Support role in Dota is probably currently more valuable and interesting than it is in LoL.
Supporting in Dota is much better than it was before, but League still has actual "carry" supports where you have a lot more agency. Senna, Pyke, and Lux can still completely take over games whereas the same can't be said for Dota, at least not in the Pos 5 position (and when they're actually building like a Pos 5)
@@Acex2ron hey ace, how about making a poll for your viewers, asking who actually plays (used to play) League more than dota, or dota more than league, or maybe even both at the same time. Im very curious about what's the ratio of your viewers, what do you think about it?
@@KitsuneFaroe as a support player in both games, League is where i go to chill and Dota2 is when i try to be sweaty.
they will only remember "Faker's shockwave will find them all" but Wolf's Rakan started it all.
People say it's the easiest role. They say that because they play support AFK in the trees soaking exp to then chainfeed because "Supports are supposed to die".
I play support, but is mostly because it is the most action packed role... i am too impatient to farm as carry, while mid and offlaner are too rigid (have to push lane, but have to gank after certain level)
Support has the freedom to go everywhere you want whenever you want
half pull is actually better if haven't stacked the camp, since full wave would clear the camp and go back to lane losing maybe 1-2 creeps and ranged creep being alive, so you didn't mess it up
The role that gets most shit in dota from teammates, not by far, because positions 1-2 also, but anyways... And I hate playing it. It's probably the second most difficult role after pos 2, and just as you said in the video, it's heavily underrated by your teammates. The first year of learning dota I played position 5 every game and suffered mentally + learning and remembering what I need to do, while also trying to do it properly was extremely difficult. Still haunts me when I recall memories 6 years after. Glad I switched to position 4 and got good at it, and few months ago started learning position 1, which is the by far the easiest role in game. Might sound crazy, but yeah, the hero with the most money on the map is the easiest to play with, even considering the responsibility that comes with it.
Support in dota is the hardest role. and unless you actually try to main support from a carry perspective you'll understand. what support in dota basically means is your in charge about every other's game. its like among us where your fixing a ship. theres multiple different task, too many to list. even feeding (shielding your carry from ganks) is a job. and pos 5 supports ganks too, it's pretty often nowadays.
So like support in LoL? I don't know where the misconception of supports being easy came from but support has more jobs to do than any roles in both games unless your yumi the you can afk and your still winning
@@minnelcandelario6893
""Ward the map
Invade mid/jg
help their carry as much as possible to get golds / help other teammates"""
Is this... the entire list? Only 3 tasks?
Supports in dota need to:
Ward the map
Invade mid/jg
help their carry as much as possible to get golds / help other teammates
stack camps
pull lane
contest wisdom rune
secure bounty runes
secure healing lotus
capture watchers
coordinate smoke ganks
initiate tormentors
contest power rune
farm dangerous lanes
break enemy smoke ganks up
block jungle spawns
...I was thinking of more but actually that's about it.
It might be that dota's supports have too MUCH to do, but it's the hardest role in the game by a huge margin. The only reason that supports don't get to farm that much in dota, is because they have too many other responsibilities to do.
im feel proud as a pos 5 after watching this, thanks!
Most of the captains and drafters in Dota are support. Best example of this are Puppey, Notail, Kuroky, Miposhka.
Pos 4 Hoodwink (on my last patch played) won the split push game by default if there wasn't a better active split pusher on the other side.
Still need 4 other roles to win. Unfortunately, no amount of macro-mechanics and clutch teamfight ability uses beats your other 4 barrelling mid for 20 minutes mid game, keeping their lives on cooldown.
As a support/pos 5/4 player?
I appreciate the kind words.
Добрый день. Как раз фармлю жетоны :D
Not when the support numbers up to the fifties in assists, especially when it's just one support in the game that manages to reach that many. No one is stupid enough to ignore that
My Crystal Maiden effigy is titled "Support 4 life"
I always prefer the support role over the carry role cause I'm prepared to die to keep my team alive and win team fights.
My go-to motto: I did not choose the support life. The support life chose me.
Meanwhile my rando teammate support: *ANy oNe SWap rOLe?*
5:51 Nope, that was a perfect half-pull. It's better than pulling the entire wave, so the lane doesn't get pushed immediately.
I've been a support main in dota for as long as I can remember And all I can say is... You're welcome 😊
9:26 I saw that 2x sentry xd
In Dota, normally the drafter and captain is the pos 5. How is it in lol?
Typically jungle players are the most vocal, since they have the most impact on the map, and are needed for most plays on the map.
Drafting in league is a lot more "simple" i guess, and is almost always done by the the coach of the team with less focus on players drafting.
In Dota as I've heard at top level it's usually supports at the start because they don't need to hyper focus on micro and farm optimisation, but can focus on macro movements. In the end game though when the carry gets farmed enough to carry often he gets to shotcall whenever he feels like having a good timing/opportunity and playing around the biggest team powerspikes is crucial.
@@kjyuu mean the draft order? Ofc first someone picks the supports, so the last pick is for the midlaner or the adc/ hard carry. You don't want to be outdrafted
@@kocheng1672 oh. In that case, the cores still do the shoutcalls. Usually, the midlaner calls for smoke ganks. Sometimes is the offlaner who calls for objetives.
@@shaodk5059 In Dota, this isn't the case all the time. You don't want to first pick your supports immediately all the time since counter picking is more prevalent in Dota. Certain support heroes can counter even the enemy ADC/Hard carry the whole game even if the enemy is super farmed and some hero combos are very good, so you want to pick them both in the same phase of the draft.
I'm not a support fan in league, in fact it's my most hated role, it find it incredibly boring as compared to dota's support, there's really nothing to do aside from harassing and warding 2-3 bushes every few minutes. Sure you can do a roam but 90% of the time your adc will take that as a go ahead to overextend 1v2 or even 1v3 when the jungle comes to kill him after you gank mid. In dota playing support in lane gives you so much more to do, sure you have to harass and control vision but also, pull, stack, block/unblock camps, play for objectives like runes and lotuses, gank other lanes with TP and gate etc. Plus dota's support items are much much more interesting than league's support items. And I love nothing more than making the enemy team's lane and teamfight hell by playing warlock, shitting out all my spells and quietly casting upheavel while in stealth while they all can barely move and are swarmed by my team and my demons. I mean pyke's execute is fun but it's not making them suffer so much that they try to jump you every fight after they lost that teamfight and ignore your team who wipe them out.
1:09 nope, vision in league is distributed evenly with the trinket system
1:47 this was addressed
3:05 mana pots were also present in old league, that gameplay was not healthy for the game as the emphasis for league is that you get punished for missing a skillshot
Cap, everybody knows that supports are the mothers who constantly feed our baby carries in early game. If that don't scream important role than i don't think anything would.
Cool vid. Could be more in depth, but good nontheless 😙
is that hsr music?
I absolutely don't mind playing support in Dota. I kinda enjoy it because of the lowers pressure of farm and other things. Buuuuut... It's just that my main role is off lane and so many people jsut don' picke heroes with stuns, like one hero have a reliable one and one other having an unreliable one, and that's it. Meanwhile the enemy team has a Faceless Void, Snapfire, Lion, and whatever else, because that's already enough stuns. Some people try to play utility or pushing off lane, but they don't know how.
the Vayne my be getting all the kills but im the reason she isnt dead yet
Anyone as in ANYONE I personally know says that support in dota 2 is literally the most impactful role , especially pos 4 (my rank isnt that high crusader, equivalent of low gold ). Some may argue offlaner in this current meta, but just reading your title gets me abit confused, in fact most people say that carry is probably the least impact now.
i play support since otherwise our teams wards sucks too much that i'll get cancer
In League Support is far from Underrated especially in Season 14.
Its the strongest Role in the game and has become Jg but better and easier.
1. Supp 2.Jg 3.Mid 4.ADC 5.Top.
Top is doing the worst for years now and has seen Supports on it that just leave the lane multiple times.
Support used to be giga broke and just work with base kits and stats like Ali.
Nowadays its not to uncommen for a support to solo kill a laner or give half HP shields.
I personally wish Support would be poor again and no support items just Sight stone for 800g that everyone can buy.
Thank you
Btw one thing i find funny is that people often say that supps/healers are really chill, social and like to help others... not me tho. I just be the one who allows you the sweet sweet release of eternal rest my little pawn. WoW fucked me up a bit too good...
The best debuff is death. - supports
Sennas after queuing “support” and dropping 16 kills
In DotA, being a support usually means you are a sadist that stuns the enemy carry for so long, they leave the game 😂😂😂
"they have the most gold" sure, "the most agency", As a veteran support player in league who has also played mid , top, and jungle, This is a rather dubious line, but overall id say the agency of support is almost to the same level as the jungler (the junglr has the most agency of all in the game), carries actually have comperatively little agency until late game if they don't snowball early, they farm, and farm, and farm, and if they are lucky, I will set up kills for them, or at least try to keep the enemy off them etc. Most carries are married to this order until 15-20 minutes in, and even then often rely on me or other teamates to do anything,
Dota 2, on the other hand I have little experiance in to comment on, but no, support has quite alot of agency, they quite literally rule botlane, are often a big threat to the jungler, and often are some of the most dangerous champions in the early game on that side of the map as well (level 3 leona will straight up outdps+outank many champs etc).
For dota's case it's not really true. You said league's support has almost as much impact on the game as the jungler? Well dota has no jungler, instead there are 2 supports. You can think of them as a hybrid between the two roles, you harass the other guys, heal their guy, pull weird shenanigans with the jungle monsters, 'generate' additional gold for the core positions, rotate when needed, etc. Their impact is massive... and tbh it's pretty much basic knowledge at this point.
11:40 people will see faker's shockwave but not the entire team's perfect cc chain
Cool
I feel loved as a sup main XD
I miss the days of pos5 poverty. I'm some kind of masochist when it comes to Dota.
Playing support on league feels so suffocating
buying controlwards is in most i would say 99% of the time a waste of gold and slots so just know when and where to ward and when and where the enemy is warding. and for the rest just look at the damn map
League support: hyperagressive kid with ADHD and schizophrenia that perma roam entire game, feed, build some random garbage(still manages to build everything because he is rewarded with gold for mere existence) and still manages to have above 50% winrate.
Dota 2 support: masochist that knows every ward spot, and timer for camp pulls, starved to death and can barely afford any item and still loses because his carry was counter picked.
Imagine disappointment of samira when you picked lux and not naut xd
Do void....as a support pos 4 or 5.
And my ADC/carry doesn't believe in discipline...
Supports in league: heal and shield 🥰
Supports in dota: 💀
Hold on dota's got dedicated healers too! We have...
Abaddon! Wait hold on this guy has an attack steroids... and he's immortal for 5s...
Uh witch doctor then. Oh wait he has fricking DEATH ward.
Omniknight? Bro's job is straight up to 2 tap supports.
Chen? He's got global heal right? Nah he and his army is coming for your barracks.
Dazzle? Tinker 2.0
Oracle! There we go, a hero with nothing but buffs anc heals, surely he's an enchanter! Hey wait why is he 9/0 at 15 mins?
Dude people talk so much about lol being a game for people with main character syndrome. And dota is the team game or whatever. Yet every single 'dota support' are given tools to just fucking kill you lol. And that's not taking items into account
Title is misleading af for dota. Even if you are only a newbie to dota, you know how important that little mofo who lane with you is. (Assumming you are playing core role)
And if you get just a little better, you start to feel, know, and realize how obnoxious it is to lane with a bad support on your lane.
You can say all this, but Support in league is completely brainless most of the time... Picks a fucking brand and goes 15/0 because he actually carries the game and not you, and never wards even once
No wards? So literally any low elo league game?
support in dota is not underrated most people like to play support, playing carry is boring af
The views on this video vs the other ones kinda proves my point lmao
@@Acex2ron out of the top 10 most picked heroes in dota2 right now, only 4 are core heroes, only jugg and PA goes hard carry. I do agree that supp is very underrated in league tho because they don't scale well with items.
Some league supports do scale well. Items = numbers go up means their healing (enchanters) or damage (mages) go up. The problem is league players have some sort of stigma towards the position, to them it's the easiest position in the game, idrk if this is true or not. Meanwhile every dota who knows what the roles in the game are understands p4/5 are the hardest to play in terms of sheer basics.
Support actually requires skill to play in Dota, in league it's just a free ticket to master tier.
#MakeSupportsBrokeAgain Its disgusting that supports are barely gold behind to jgler nowadays.
It actually depends on what sup you play in league, if you play braindead ones like nautilus, zyra, soraka, lux, morgana and brand, sure, free ticket to masters, but if you actually like to play interesting ones, then good luck, because people are not too found of playing along your calls/strat/requirements, for example, i often get people saying that milio and renata glasc are bad suports despite them not even knowing how their main abilities works(renata's W/R and milio's W/R), the main diference in dota and lol, are that everything in dota is balanced simply because everything is too broken, meanwhile, in lol, while riot tries to balance things too much, they end up making half of the champions broken and the other half useless/a worse version of the better champions, for example, riot tried to give diversity to Rell by making her viable in jungle, then, high elo started abusing her and treating her like a perma ganking jg, instead of riot adjusting Rell's number so she would spent less time ganking and more time farming(like nerfing dmg numbers to camps and buffing late game powerspikes like armor, CD and HP so she could be unmatched in teamfights like amumu is currently like)they opted to REMOVE HER VIABILITY IN JUNGLE COMPLETELY, why? You ask? Because: "it has a niche pick who only saw play by a few otps and it was being abused by them."
Bananarama
"Try winning a game where you have no idea where the enemy is at all times" - So... Low Elo SoloQ? (True for both DotA and League)
Saying that support is underrated in league is just dumb
supports in league: ward , deward , heal/shield carry , poke/harass the enemy , occasionally roam to other lanes
supports in dota: ward , deward , stack neutrals , pull camps , block camps , help with power and wisdom runes , tp to other lanes with scroll or gate , buy smoke,dust,gem , buy regen for carry , help with securing lotus , buy defensive items for your team