Great coverage! Was just discussing this episode as another wild miss in star trek trying to cover disability. It's times like these that I really like my idea of having Troi come over to DS9 temporarily after Jadzia died to A) help her friend Worf and B) end up showcasing good therapy on war weary crew.
The only problem with Troi is that when Gene approved the idea during development, she was intended to be the Soviet Political Officer to Picard, who would correct “wrongthink” (which you see her do with Worf in “The Wounded”). As for disability in Trek, they always handle it badly. How can you have disability post-Eugenics Wars Earth, especially when in Season 2, they proved you could re-xerox an earlier version of Pulaski, and effectively open the gate to a “Prestige” situation?
N64, two controllers, Goldeneye, and a Domino's pizza? Shoot... why didn't you say so? Nice Treknalysis episode. Just what I needed on this rainy California Friday.
I remember reading the Fan Magazine that the writer's played with the idea of Troi's loss permanent, which IMO would have been better for her, and the show overall. In Troi's defense though she does act like someone who lost a limb, or suddenly went blind or losing hearing.
I guess one of the things I always found kinda odd about this episode was that Troi had not sensed any emotions from Data ever since the pilot episode (except for that time Q gave him the gift of laughter), and she never seemed particularly unsettled around him. In fact they usually worked fairly well together, including here when they team up to figure out the 2D entities. So how did she become comfortable around Data if she was never able to read his emotional state? Maybe I'm missing the point, but I thought she could eventually learn how to relate to the rest of the crew in a similar way. Was the question even brought up? Also, with so many people aboard the Enterprise D, perhaps having an extra Counselor around as backup wouldn't be a terrible idea. I think Guinan would probably do a decent job.
I'm realy enjoying this Treknalysis series. I would waste my three genie wishes to see a Treknalysis on S1 "Among us", S3 "Allegiance" and S3 "Captain's Holidays".
1) I'm a clinical psychologist. ...and Troi (and Ezri) are the WORST mental health workers. Don't go to them. 2) Riker's "aristocratic" comment is absolutely right. She comes off as a bratty trust fund kid that has been cut off. Not a good look.
If you don't mind, would you talk more about Ezri? I'd like to hear a professional's opinion on her. Though myself, as a non-expert, can clearly see that she doesn't have enough experience or self confidence.
@@NerdilyDone That's the first point. She didn't have experience. The whole point of the symbiont is to not associate positively or negatively with past lives.... and what does Sisko do? Get her training waived because "what can she learn in her last semester that she didn't learn in the last 300 years." That's so dumb and against joined trill. I don't remember the specifics off the top of my head. I'd love to do a watch-along with the episode where she helps Garak and explain why it's so awful. Might make a good video. ;) Just a thought.
Ezri definitely stumbled her way along with counseling Garak. It was probably a miracle that she got anywhere with him at all... and I say this as someone who is okay with Ezri.
News flash…being a clinical psychologist doesn’t mean you’re competent at your job…just that you have had training and passed exams. Many real psychologists are next to useless because they aren’t good at helping people. It’s like knowing how to fix a car but not having the talent to do anything more than basic maintenance.
I always hated the line “how do you people live like this” that statement really was poorly written and to people who pick up on stuff like that it is just awful for the ships counselor to say in any situation
:19 that weird asymmetrical cleavage dress, my 14 year old self remembers it fondly. You've covered Ds9 and TNG, how about some VOY and ENT stuff? Maybe carbon creek from ENT?
@@claytonberg721 I think Riker could have pulled it off. He pulled off that other outfit on the women dominated planet. Maybe Data with his smooth android bottom could pull off the skant.
Some of Troi's eps can perhaps be better seen as Barclay's twisted holodeck fantasies. "Computer, load simulaton Barclay-7B, Helpless Depowered Troi. Set subject logic to minimal and rashness to maximum. Now let's see if she'll have me."
I don't think this is bad writing if you pretend they aren't in an unbelievably dangerous situation on a daily basis, and that single person is responsible for over 1000 person's mental health. Like bish, we need you to keep your shit together lol. There was also that one episode where she was the commanding officer on the bridge and just failed miserably. If she was just Troi the empathic lady, I think this episode is fine. Imagine losing your entire sex drive overnight, many people would lose their minds even though it's not essential to life. But she somehow managed to weasel her way into a position clearly far above her abilities on a ship with almost exclusively rock stars
I feel like I like the idea of Deanna Troi as character, but not the execution. She has so much potential that was unfulfilled, she could has used her abilities as a telepath and counselor better. In the original series spock would use mindmeld to extract information that was needed. Why not give Deanna telepathic powers like she had in the pilot and use her abilities to extract info that was needed. Remember that episode at galonden core, when the enterprise wanted to wake up the Romulan to question him. What if instead of waking him up Deanna used her telepathy to read his mind to find out why the Romulans are there and Geordi is in danger because there is another Romulan on the surface. It would not change the episode much there would still be the dramatic tension with Worf deciding to donate his blood or not and Geordi would still have to work with Bactra. But knowing their friend was stranded on the hazardous world with a hostile Romulan would have added additional excitement to the story but would have satisfied the curiosity of knowing what the Romulans were doing on galonden core. You could say Well if Deanna can read minds like that would it not spoil a lot of the excited of the show? There are two solutions to that problem. First put better limited on what exactly Deanna's powers are like she needs close contact like spock, but her telepathy is just as powerful if not more. Plus that would eliminate the ridiculousness of Deanna being able to read the emotions of the person on the view screen and incentive the captain to send her on more away missions. Second maybe you could build on betazoid lore and say the forcible reading of a mind is considered taboo in betazoid culture. So Troi would only scan a person's mind when it was a life or death situation. I also feel like Deanna's counselor's abilities were pretty lackluster too. Did the script writers ever consult an actual psychologist when they were writing Troi's dialogue or did, they just have her say the flimsy modo jumbo they thought a shrink would say? I also think it may have been better if Troi actually had a psychology degree. In the show we are told anyone can apply to the position of ship's counselor (as evidence by Guanin). It's strange a degree in mental health was not required. Making Troi a literal MD I think would have given her character a better foot to stand on and lead to her advice being taken more seriously. Wanted to add TNG is one of my favorite shows, so it makes me really wish Deanna was written better. Awesome video by the way, I agree with pretty much all your points and love listening to people talking about trek. Definitely earned a new subscriber.
Welcome aboard! I think Riker makes reference to Deanna being a Psychology student, so I assumed she had a degree, which would make her counseling skills even more perplexing. I do like the idea of Deanna having some kind of limited telepathy. I would give her something more to do other than "I sense tension!" I do like Deanna, but she could have been written a lot better.
Great video, as usual Janelle, however, there is something that I would like to point out to you that you might not have thought about when you wrote this video. I will not deny that the writers on TNG wrote Troi poorly on numerous occasions throughout the series. But, while they may have written her poorly in this episode according to what was normal on TV in the early '90s, they also wrote her more realistically. Say you've had an ability that you've used your entire life and then it was suddenly taken away from you because of a stroke or some other form of brain trauma, would you not freak out on everyone around you as a first reaction to discovering that ability was gone, especially if everyone around you trivialized it or downplayed it? Or how about if a friend, who thought they were helping you ended up coming off as patronizing? Yeah, I'd be pretty upset too. So I can absolutely understand why Troi immediately acts like a jerk when she discovered that she lost her empathic abilities. It may not seem like a big deal for those of us who don't have those abilities and don't know what it's like to unexpectedly lose it for whatever reason. Because I think we all would react that way if we were in her position. And as a disabled person myself, I've always had to deal with people who, whether they meant to or not, act ignorant or patronizing towards me because they don't know what it's like to not have certain abilities that they take for granted. Riker, Crusher, and Picard all thought they were helping Troi by saying what they said (Riker did end up helping later on, but initially, not so much), but in Troi's emotional state at the time, she wasn't able to interpret their words as they'd intended them to be interpreted as, and lashed out against perceived attacks on herself from those who don't really know what she's going through. The writing could've been handled better, but it felt more realistic than the way these characters tend to act the majority of the time. Apologies for the rant, but, I felt I needed to speak on this as someone who knows exactly how Troi is feeling, but can also see it from both sides of the situation too.
I had a similar feeling. She was used to having the "advantage" as Riker put it. Now it is gone. And she overly relied on it and probably did not know how to properly cope without it and not know how to use intuition to know how to read people on their speech, tone and stance. She was over dramatic about it for sure. One day and flipping out like she lost a limb or the ability to walk, for instance. So I think that is what Jan was talking about. To Deanna, it was something she had since birth or childhood and very much was an everyday part of life that was no longer available. Like Geordi with his optical nerves or what ever, if no longer allowed for even the visor implementation, he would be for all intensive purposes, completely blind. He would no longer be able to function as an engineer or even as a person, until he learned (fully, I am sure he already had a grasp on the subject) of being in total darkness and trying to live in a world of light.
@@tilasole3252 Exactly. And Geordi has had his whole life to adjust to being blind and then to use his VISOR and he doesn't know any other way of being. Deanna on the other hand, well, I think her reaction was written realistically, as I said, but, I think the problem with it comes from Marina's performance. She tends to overact as Troi in more dramatic scenes and that definitely comes off in her performance in this episode, which is likely how she was directed to perform. So it isn't just the writers, but the performer and the director as well. And to be fair, every performer in Star Trek overacts. It just ends up being more noticeable in episodes like this.
No worries about the rant. I get where you're coming from. I certainly didn't want to come down too hard on Troi because I got what the episode was trying to do with saying what it's like to have a disability, which is definitely a worthy topic to explore. It just mishandled it. I think @tilasole3252 mentioned how she was relying on it so heavily that she couldn't function properly with out it. If that was the angle they were going for, then I could see it working: a lot of uncomfortable situations for Troi to be in, maybe a negotiation goes south because she can't pick up on cues, something like that. With the episode the way it is, I think it would have helped if the scenes were flipped around a little: Troi losing her powers, realizing she can't do her job, then venting her frustrations to Riker/getting defensive/etc. As it was, she just found out about losing her abilities and lashed out at Riker almost right away when he was trying to lend an ear.
@@JanelleWaz Definitely. It also doesn't help that both Riker and Beverly act so "not a big deal" about it. But, that's what you get from '90s television. As others have pointed out, even DS9 didn't handle disabilities very well, and that's because they didn't have a consultant for that sort of thing like they had science consultants.
@@tgif1345 The lady who was in the wheel chair or braces I thought was interesting, where she could do all sorts of things in zero g. The mentally gifted, but also heavily awkward bunch who were doing calculations regarding the casualties of the Dominion War. And obviously Nog losing his leg and his bitterness and withdrawing from reality. I thought Barclay too, from TNG and VOY, was handled "alright"
I did not get the N64 or pizza reference. I feel Deanna's plight, she was used to something since birth or childhood and now it is gone. The "advantage" Will had spoke of. Just because she is normal to everyone else now, on equal footing, does not mean she is used to it. In fact, she is at a complete disadvantage, since she never, or assumingly, learned how to be empathic or use intuition, without her powers It would be like a teckie converting to Amish over night. There will be some growing pains. 😅
Dude, I feel sorry for you. Pizza and N64 is a fabulous experience. But I agree with your Amish point. Troi doesn't know how to function like a normal human.
The N64/pizza reference was just me putting something that would probably make me feel better. No hidden reference to anything. 😅 The way I interpret Troi, she's spent enough time with humans to understand how they function and might have even picked up their habits. In the episode "Haven", she speaks out loud when talking to Lwaxana despite Lwaxana insisting she use her telepathy (which I guess works with other Betazoids and Riker but no one else). I wouldn't say she's at a complete disadvantage and probably with some time, she could adapt to not having her empathic abilities. I think the issue I have with her in this episode was she gets frustrated almost immediately with losing her abilities, and I think the episode could have handled it better by flipping some scenes around: she loses her powers, can't do her job, then rants about her frustrations to Riker.
Troi was pretty terribly written in this episode (and unfortunately in the show as a whole). But I think this episode brings up a interesting issue with having a crewmate who is telepathic. I get how extremely upsetting it would be to lose something so integral to her existence. Ironically, as im writing this, trois telepathy and the episode is also a direct metaphor for the writers and how they treat her character. Troi just like the writers, can't figure out what to do without her telepathic powers. Because who is Troi within the show if not for a convenient plot device most of the time? Her role in the show is basically "hey look I read their mind, they are hiding something" And the writers did a poor job of writing her character past that. That's probably why they scraped the idea of making her telepathic loss permanent, not because it wasn't a good idea, but because they themselves realized how much of a plot device her ability was, they trapped themselves, and her character into a corner and didn't start writing out of it until later on. (tbh I may of been rambling on in the next paragraphs, but I didn't want to just delete it so lol) But its also... kinda weird to think your crewmate, especially your superior officer/counselor has almost unfair ability to read into your mind every second and every minute of the day. Of course she is half human, so her abilities are limited. Still, imagine how uncomfortable it would be if someone could accurately know just your emotional feelings at any moment. She is effectively a walking lie detector... except when she's not. Its almost akin to the Barclay episode, where when they go into the holodeck program of his, they basically are getting a unfiltered glimpse into his mind. People are weird in general, but people are the weirdest within their minds. Maybe that's why she's so extremely upset about losing that ability. Before, she almost had a near perfect ability to discern someone's motives and intentions. If they came up to her for something, she can easily tell by their emotions and put 2 and 2 together. Without that, she has to live in a world where she doesn't know whose being honest or truthful, who has hidden motives or agendas and who is being fake or dishonest with her. As someone who definitely isn't a telepath, I can safely say that figuring out people and their actual motives, feelings and honest opinions about you, or even other people is pretty hard. In fact its a major understatement to say its pretty hard, its sometimes almost impossible. Because there is always that uncertainty, that you can never really know if they mean what they say, or they are just saying it for whatever reason. Figuring out people is like playing a very confusing game of mine sweeper. But Troi has the cheats and gets to see 3-4 spaces ahead. Having that ability to almost skip 90% of that social quagmire is clearly a advantage. Which she's probably been knowingly and or unknowingly exploiting this whole time. Losing that unquestionable advantage, and not having learned how to achieve similar results without basically cheating must be terrifying.
No worries! Ramble away! I've even made a joke on Twitter that Troi's new job title without her powers is "Wearer of Sexy Jumpsuits". Even with Troi's powers, she doesn't do much with them beyond stating what we could figure out without empathic abilities. There's one scene I'm thinking of where Worf and Alexander are arguing during a counseling session and Troi says, "I sense hostility here, gentlemen." REALLY, DEANNA? REALLY?! Sure, she could have been trying to make a point, but it just seemed like such an odd thing to say that didn't contribute much to the session. I've argued in other comments that Troi shouldn't be completely helpless without her empathic abilities. She's been around humans (as well as other aliens) long enough to pick up on social cues and facial expressions. I look at her empathic abilities as an enhancement (probably one she's come to rely on too heavily), but when she loses her powers that gave her an edge and complains she can't do her job anymore, it's like, "What are you talking about? Of course you can!" It's probably a failing of the writing in this episode because it's not presented as Deanna needed her abilities to function, but something extra that made her life easier. If they did the former, I think it could have effectively explored living with a disability.
"Troy is a bad character" is the worse argument. She helps saves the Enterprise multiple times. She helps Picard preparing to incoming events, she dates different men in interesting situations and we have many episodes about her. Where is she a bad character? No she is not Ray Palpatine thank god.
Oh, I never said Troi was a bad character: just not a well-written one. I would have liked to have seen her contribute to the the show more than stating the obvious on the bridge (ie: "Captain, they're hiding something." Yeah, we got that, Deanna.). But even as she is, she's still better than Rey.
Being a bad character isn't about what a character does, but how a character does them. "Bad" in this sense should be translated more to "not handled well by the writers" rather than "a person who was useless."
Marina Sirtis would be the first to tell you that the writers had no clue what to do with her character. I give her lots of props for salvaging what she could from the scripts. Ironically, she may have been the best written character on Picard.
Counselor normal; your comedy cracks me up 😂😂😂
Great coverage! Was just discussing this episode as another wild miss in star trek trying to cover disability.
It's times like these that I really like my idea of having Troi come over to DS9 temporarily after Jadzia died to A) help her friend Worf and B) end up showcasing good therapy on war weary crew.
Aw man! Now I want to see that on DS9! I wouldn't want it to end up with Worf and Deanna dating again, but I like the idea.
@@JanelleWaz no no no. That should never have happened! They're friends, that's it. Lol
Troi faking her way as a telepath amongst a bunch of humans who don't know any better definitely has story potential! 😂
It would be great for Trek sketch comedy show.
How the preview ad should have been:
"Troi bears her claws and spits venom!
Next time on Star Trek... The Next Generation"
You might have the right to bear arms, but I like my bare arms.
The only problem with Troi is that when Gene approved the idea during development, she was intended to be the Soviet Political Officer to Picard, who would correct “wrongthink” (which you see her do with Worf in “The Wounded”).
As for disability in Trek, they always handle it badly. How can you have disability post-Eugenics Wars Earth, especially when in Season 2, they proved you could re-xerox an earlier version of Pulaski, and effectively open the gate to a “Prestige” situation?
Doesn't Thomas Riker prove they're pretty chill about the prestige thing?
@@fusionspace175 , yet they have no problem murdering clones if they’re remotely related to Space Irish (“Up the Long Ladder”).
N64, two controllers, Goldeneye, and a Domino's pizza?
Shoot... why didn't you say so?
Nice Treknalysis episode. Just what I needed on this rainy California Friday.
Is this a good pick up line? I don’t have a fancy psychology degree so I feel like it might work for me.
An online friend of mine added something along the lines of this:
Troi: Can I be Oddjob?
Riker: No, that's cheating.
@@JanelleWaz My friends and I would always make custom modes. But if it was a normal match up Oddjob could only be used if he had lower health.
I remember reading the Fan Magazine that the writer's played with the idea of Troi's loss permanent, which IMO would have been better for her, and the show overall. In Troi's defense though she does act like someone who lost a limb, or suddenly went blind or losing hearing.
Fair point.
I guess one of the things I always found kinda odd about this episode was that Troi had not sensed any emotions from Data ever since the pilot episode (except for that time Q gave him the gift of laughter), and she never seemed particularly unsettled around him. In fact they usually worked fairly well together, including here when they team up to figure out the 2D entities.
So how did she become comfortable around Data if she was never able to read his emotional state? Maybe I'm missing the point, but I thought she could eventually learn how to relate to the rest of the crew in a similar way. Was the question even brought up?
Also, with so many people aboard the Enterprise D, perhaps having an extra Counselor around as backup wouldn't be a terrible idea. I think Guinan would probably do a decent job.
I'm realy enjoying this Treknalysis series. I would waste my three genie wishes to see a Treknalysis on S1 "Among us", S3 "Allegiance" and S3 "Captain's Holidays".
1) I'm a clinical psychologist. ...and Troi (and Ezri) are the WORST mental health workers. Don't go to them.
2) Riker's "aristocratic" comment is absolutely right. She comes off as a bratty trust fund kid that has been cut off. Not a good look.
If you don't mind, would you talk more about Ezri? I'd like to hear a professional's opinion on her. Though myself, as a non-expert, can clearly see that she doesn't have enough experience or self confidence.
@@NerdilyDone That's the first point. She didn't have experience. The whole point of the symbiont is to not associate positively or negatively with past lives.... and what does Sisko do? Get her training waived because "what can she learn in her last semester that she didn't learn in the last 300 years." That's so dumb and against joined trill.
I don't remember the specifics off the top of my head. I'd love to do a watch-along with the episode where she helps Garak and explain why it's so awful. Might make a good video. ;) Just a thought.
Ezri definitely stumbled her way along with counseling Garak. It was probably a miracle that she got anywhere with him at all... and I say this as someone who is okay with Ezri.
News flash…being a clinical psychologist doesn’t mean you’re competent at your job…just that you have had training and passed exams. Many real psychologists are next to useless because they aren’t good at helping people. It’s like knowing how to fix a car but not having the talent to do anything more than basic maintenance.
I always hated the line “how do you people live like this” that statement really was poorly written and to people who pick up on stuff like that it is just awful for the ships counselor to say in any situation
Lol this is great another Troy video! We can all love and Hate troy. Face of the enemy is one of the best troy episodes.
Poor Troi. We all love her, but we all love to poke fun at her.
:19 that weird asymmetrical cleavage dress, my 14 year old self remembers it fondly.
You've covered Ds9 and TNG, how about some VOY and ENT stuff? Maybe carbon creek from ENT?
I still need to get ENT on DVD. Once I do that and can pause the episode to make notes, I'd like to do more ENT content.
Yes... That wonder aqua (?) dress and don't forget the brief and rather short skant mini skirt. 😊
@@tilasole3252Who wears the skant better, Troi or Boimler?
Correct answer is Boimler.
@@claytonberg721 I think Riker could have pulled it off. He pulled off that other outfit on the women dominated planet. Maybe Data with his smooth android bottom could pull off the skant.
Some of Troi's eps can perhaps be better seen as Barclay's twisted holodeck fantasies. "Computer, load simulaton Barclay-7B, Helpless Depowered Troi. Set subject logic to minimal and rashness to maximum. Now let's see if she'll have me."
3:10 Someone plese tell me in which episode Picard says "Your holodeck activities can wait until later. "
I believe that's from Hollow Pursuits in Season 3.
Ah the 90s and how women were written. At least she was feminine.
I do like that Troi is feminine. I just wish she got the depth that we got with Major Kira, Jadzia Dax, Captain Janeway, etc.
I don't think this is bad writing if you pretend they aren't in an unbelievably dangerous situation on a daily basis, and that single person is responsible for over 1000 person's mental health. Like bish, we need you to keep your shit together lol. There was also that one episode where she was the commanding officer on the bridge and just failed miserably.
If she was just Troi the empathic lady, I think this episode is fine. Imagine losing your entire sex drive overnight, many people would lose their minds even though it's not essential to life. But she somehow managed to weasel her way into a position clearly far above her abilities on a ship with almost exclusively rock stars
I feel like I like the idea of Deanna Troi as character, but not the execution. She has so much potential that was unfulfilled, she could has used her abilities as a telepath and counselor better.
In the original series spock would use mindmeld to extract information that was needed. Why not give Deanna telepathic powers like she had in the pilot and use her abilities to extract info that was needed. Remember that episode at galonden core, when the enterprise wanted to wake up the Romulan to question him. What if instead of waking him up Deanna used her telepathy to read his mind to find out why the Romulans are there and Geordi is in danger because there is another Romulan on the surface. It would not change the episode much there would still be the dramatic tension with Worf deciding to donate his blood or not and Geordi would still have to work with Bactra. But knowing their friend was stranded on the hazardous world with a hostile Romulan would have added additional excitement to the story but would have satisfied the curiosity of knowing what the Romulans were doing on galonden core. You could say Well if Deanna can read minds like that would it not spoil a lot of the excited of the show? There are two solutions to that problem. First put better limited on what exactly Deanna's powers are like she needs close contact like spock, but her telepathy is just as powerful if not more. Plus that would eliminate the ridiculousness of Deanna being able to read the emotions of the person on the view screen and incentive the captain to send her on more away missions. Second maybe you could build on betazoid lore and say the forcible reading of a mind is considered taboo in betazoid culture. So Troi would only scan a person's mind when it was a life or death situation.
I also feel like Deanna's counselor's abilities were pretty lackluster too. Did the script writers ever consult an actual psychologist when they were writing Troi's dialogue or did, they just have her say the flimsy modo jumbo they thought a shrink would say? I also think it may have been better if Troi actually had a psychology degree. In the show we are told anyone can apply to the position of ship's counselor (as evidence by Guanin). It's strange a degree in mental health was not required. Making Troi a literal MD I think would have given her character a better foot to stand on and lead to her advice being taken more seriously.
Wanted to add TNG is one of my favorite shows, so it makes me really wish Deanna was written better. Awesome video by the way, I agree with pretty much all your points and love listening to people talking about trek. Definitely earned a new subscriber.
Welcome aboard!
I think Riker makes reference to Deanna being a Psychology student, so I assumed she had a degree, which would make her counseling skills even more perplexing.
I do like the idea of Deanna having some kind of limited telepathy. I would give her something more to do other than "I sense tension!" I do like Deanna, but she could have been written a lot better.
Great video, as usual Janelle, however, there is something that I would like to point out to you that you might not have thought about when you wrote this video. I will not deny that the writers on TNG wrote Troi poorly on numerous occasions throughout the series. But, while they may have written her poorly in this episode according to what was normal on TV in the early '90s, they also wrote her more realistically.
Say you've had an ability that you've used your entire life and then it was suddenly taken away from you because of a stroke or some other form of brain trauma, would you not freak out on everyone around you as a first reaction to discovering that ability was gone, especially if everyone around you trivialized it or downplayed it? Or how about if a friend, who thought they were helping you ended up coming off as patronizing? Yeah, I'd be pretty upset too.
So I can absolutely understand why Troi immediately acts like a jerk when she discovered that she lost her empathic abilities. It may not seem like a big deal for those of us who don't have those abilities and don't know what it's like to unexpectedly lose it for whatever reason. Because I think we all would react that way if we were in her position. And as a disabled person myself, I've always had to deal with people who, whether they meant to or not, act ignorant or patronizing towards me because they don't know what it's like to not have certain abilities that they take for granted. Riker, Crusher, and Picard all thought they were helping Troi by saying what they said (Riker did end up helping later on, but initially, not so much), but in Troi's emotional state at the time, she wasn't able to interpret their words as they'd intended them to be interpreted as, and lashed out against perceived attacks on herself from those who don't really know what she's going through.
The writing could've been handled better, but it felt more realistic than the way these characters tend to act the majority of the time. Apologies for the rant, but, I felt I needed to speak on this as someone who knows exactly how Troi is feeling, but can also see it from both sides of the situation too.
I had a similar feeling. She was used to having the "advantage" as Riker put it. Now it is gone. And she overly relied on it and probably did not know how to properly cope without it and not know how to use intuition to know how to read people on their speech, tone and stance.
She was over dramatic about it for sure. One day and flipping out like she lost a limb or the ability to walk, for instance. So I think that is what Jan was talking about. To Deanna, it was something she had since birth or childhood and very much was an everyday part of life that was no longer available.
Like Geordi with his optical nerves or what ever, if no longer allowed for even the visor implementation, he would be for all intensive purposes, completely blind. He would no longer be able to function as an engineer or even as a person, until he learned (fully, I am sure he already had a grasp on the subject) of being in total darkness and trying to live in a world of light.
@@tilasole3252 Exactly. And Geordi has had his whole life to adjust to being blind and then to use his VISOR and he doesn't know any other way of being. Deanna on the other hand, well, I think her reaction was written realistically, as I said, but, I think the problem with it comes from Marina's performance. She tends to overact as Troi in more dramatic scenes and that definitely comes off in her performance in this episode, which is likely how she was directed to perform. So it isn't just the writers, but the performer and the director as well. And to be fair, every performer in Star Trek overacts. It just ends up being more noticeable in episodes like this.
No worries about the rant. I get where you're coming from. I certainly didn't want to come down too hard on Troi because I got what the episode was trying to do with saying what it's like to have a disability, which is definitely a worthy topic to explore. It just mishandled it. I think @tilasole3252 mentioned how she was relying on it so heavily that she couldn't function properly with out it. If that was the angle they were going for, then I could see it working: a lot of uncomfortable situations for Troi to be in, maybe a negotiation goes south because she can't pick up on cues, something like that.
With the episode the way it is, I think it would have helped if the scenes were flipped around a little: Troi losing her powers, realizing she can't do her job, then venting her frustrations to Riker/getting defensive/etc. As it was, she just found out about losing her abilities and lashed out at Riker almost right away when he was trying to lend an ear.
@@JanelleWaz Definitely. It also doesn't help that both Riker and Beverly act so "not a big deal" about it. But, that's what you get from '90s television. As others have pointed out, even DS9 didn't handle disabilities very well, and that's because they didn't have a consultant for that sort of thing like they had science consultants.
@@tgif1345 The lady who was in the wheel chair or braces I thought was interesting, where she could do all sorts of things in zero g. The mentally gifted, but also heavily awkward bunch who were doing calculations regarding the casualties of the Dominion War. And obviously Nog losing his leg and his bitterness and withdrawing from reality. I thought Barclay too, from TNG and VOY, was handled "alright"
I didn't understand how Troi could get away with "resigning" during a *crisis.*
Yeah. Didn't Worf try that on DS9 and Sisko wouldn't let him?
@@JanelleWaz Heck, Data tried it in Generations, and Picard wouldn't let him.
Plus, it's not like they're going anywhere. Deanna can't just be dropped off at the nearest starbase.
Dont forget your subscribers when u find a way to time travel back to the 90s.
To quote the first Ecco the Dolphin game: "We escaped into the past with our technology."
2:49 - Lordy, how many layers of fake eyelashes does Starfleet allow, in its regulations?
Ro can't get away with an earring, but there's no rule for eyelashes. 😆
goldeneye was the best n64 game ever; if u played odd job in multiplayer you were being sneaky
I did not get the N64 or pizza reference. I feel Deanna's plight, she was used to something since birth or childhood and now it is gone. The "advantage" Will had spoke of.
Just because she is normal to everyone else now, on equal footing, does not mean she is used to it. In fact, she is at a complete disadvantage, since she never, or assumingly, learned how to be empathic or use intuition, without her powers
It would be like a teckie converting to Amish over night. There will be some growing pains. 😅
Dude, I feel sorry for you. Pizza and N64 is a fabulous experience. But I agree with your Amish point. Troi doesn't know how to function like a normal human.
@@NerdilyDone I know of both N64 and pizza, although would never handle both at the same time. Still not sure of the reference though.
@@NerdilyDonepizza 🍕, yuk!
The N64/pizza reference was just me putting something that would probably make me feel better. No hidden reference to anything. 😅
The way I interpret Troi, she's spent enough time with humans to understand how they function and might have even picked up their habits. In the episode "Haven", she speaks out loud when talking to Lwaxana despite Lwaxana insisting she use her telepathy (which I guess works with other Betazoids and Riker but no one else). I wouldn't say she's at a complete disadvantage and probably with some time, she could adapt to not having her empathic abilities. I think the issue I have with her in this episode was she gets frustrated almost immediately with losing her abilities, and I think the episode could have handled it better by flipping some scenes around: she loses her powers, can't do her job, then rants about her frustrations to Riker.
@NerdilyDone knows what I'm talking about! 🍕
Anything season 7
Troi was pretty terribly written in this episode (and unfortunately in the show as a whole). But I think this episode brings up a interesting issue with having a crewmate who is telepathic. I get how extremely upsetting it would be to lose something so integral to her existence. Ironically, as im writing this, trois telepathy and the episode is also a direct metaphor for the writers and how they treat her character. Troi just like the writers, can't figure out what to do without her telepathic powers. Because who is Troi within the show if not for a convenient plot device most of the time? Her role in the show is basically "hey look I read their mind, they are hiding something" And the writers did a poor job of writing her character past that. That's probably why they scraped the idea of making her telepathic loss permanent, not because it wasn't a good idea, but because they themselves realized how much of a plot device her ability was, they trapped themselves, and her character into a corner and didn't start writing out of it until later on.
(tbh I may of been rambling on in the next paragraphs, but I didn't want to just delete it so lol)
But its also... kinda weird to think your crewmate, especially your superior officer/counselor has almost unfair ability to read into your mind every second and every minute of the day. Of course she is half human, so her abilities are limited. Still, imagine how uncomfortable it would be if someone could accurately know just your emotional feelings at any moment. She is effectively a walking lie detector... except when she's not. Its almost akin to the Barclay episode, where when they go into the holodeck program of his, they basically are getting a unfiltered glimpse into his mind. People are weird in general, but people are the weirdest within their minds.
Maybe that's why she's so extremely upset about losing that ability. Before, she almost had a near perfect ability to discern someone's motives and intentions. If they came up to her for something, she can easily tell by their emotions and put 2 and 2 together. Without that, she has to live in a world where she doesn't know whose being honest or truthful, who has hidden motives or agendas and who is being fake or dishonest with her.
As someone who definitely isn't a telepath, I can safely say that figuring out people and their actual motives, feelings and honest opinions about you, or even other people is pretty hard. In fact its a major understatement to say its pretty hard, its sometimes almost impossible. Because there is always that uncertainty, that you can never really know if they mean what they say, or they are just saying it for whatever reason. Figuring out people is like playing a very confusing game of mine sweeper. But Troi has the cheats and gets to see 3-4 spaces ahead. Having that ability to almost skip 90% of that social quagmire is clearly a advantage. Which she's probably been knowingly and or unknowingly exploiting this whole time. Losing that unquestionable advantage, and not having learned how to achieve similar results without basically cheating must be terrifying.
No worries! Ramble away!
I've even made a joke on Twitter that Troi's new job title without her powers is "Wearer of Sexy Jumpsuits". Even with Troi's powers, she doesn't do much with them beyond stating what we could figure out without empathic abilities. There's one scene I'm thinking of where Worf and Alexander are arguing during a counseling session and Troi says, "I sense hostility here, gentlemen." REALLY, DEANNA? REALLY?! Sure, she could have been trying to make a point, but it just seemed like such an odd thing to say that didn't contribute much to the session.
I've argued in other comments that Troi shouldn't be completely helpless without her empathic abilities. She's been around humans (as well as other aliens) long enough to pick up on social cues and facial expressions. I look at her empathic abilities as an enhancement (probably one she's come to rely on too heavily), but when she loses her powers that gave her an edge and complains she can't do her job anymore, it's like, "What are you talking about? Of course you can!" It's probably a failing of the writing in this episode because it's not presented as Deanna needed her abilities to function, but something extra that made her life easier. If they did the former, I think it could have effectively explored living with a disability.
"Troy is a bad character" is the worse argument. She helps saves the Enterprise multiple times. She helps Picard preparing to incoming events, she dates different men in interesting situations and we have many episodes about her. Where is she a bad character?
No she is not Ray Palpatine thank god.
Oh, I never said Troi was a bad character: just not a well-written one. I would have liked to have seen her contribute to the the show more than stating the obvious on the bridge (ie: "Captain, they're hiding something." Yeah, we got that, Deanna.). But even as she is, she's still better than Rey.
Being a bad character isn't about what a character does, but how a character does them. "Bad" in this sense should be translated more to "not handled well by the writers" rather than "a person who was useless."
SHe is believable as a character in Star Trek universe ... yes ... she is well written trust me.
Marina Sirtis would be the first to tell you that the writers had no clue what to do with her character. I give her lots of props for salvaging what she could from the scripts.
Ironically, she may have been the best written character on Picard.
N64 Goldeneye and a Domino's pizza?
Your dating history makes me sad.
Look, I just have really high standards. 😂