Why being sore doesn't mean you're getting stronger (Audio Only)
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- Опубликовано: 17 июл 2017
- An audio reading by Mark Rippetoe of his article on the topic of soreness. The article appears on the Starting Strength website here: startingstrength.com/article/w...
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His voice is like listening to a meditation tape of rain sounds. Soothing. Like being in the womb
Jordan Grandbois yep
Jordan Grandbois sometimes when I am bored ,I try to read stuff in his voice lol
I always thought fingers on chalkboard.
John Dziki same same
I do enjoy the content of these, but I usually fall asleep to them because they're soothing. shame they're very sparse now and they don't do ask RIP anymore
"Soreness is the necessary evil but it can never be the objective", such aptly said
voice of many decades of experience speaking -you can get very sore legs, glutes , hams and quads pedalling a bike.
Lift big and lift heavy, frequently and progressively.
With training my clients in a commercial gym setting, I have about 15 seconds to explain what Rip lays out in 12 minutes. It's hard to shift the mindset of of people to who want to FEEL like they got a "good workout."
Will Wyatt When you're working with clients who "just want to tone" and "don't want to get too bulky," it takes quite a while to even explain what the point of training is and what are the realistic expectations from exercise. The hardest part of training in a commercial setting is the corporate expectation to cater to client's desires, to satiate the client, to keep the client happy, to keep them paying. That is, we have to pander to the programming desires of people who don't understand programming.
Take a 45, write the stuff on it, and slam it in their face until they understand...
I very much feel your pain.
It seems about 95% of women I've talked to about strength training, are terrified of becoming "too big" to the point that they will not touch standard combination exercises like squats or bench presses, or if they do, they will not push themselves. They've all seen pictures of hulkish women and they think if they let a weight brush their hand, they will instantly turn into a man.
Yup. I've had to explain that "you will never accidentally get buff" to every single one of my female clients.
Thank you for this! I stopped getting sore and was worried that I was not pushing it hard enough! Thank you!
My deepest appreciation to your teachings and your knowledge. Thank you.
When your young none of this stuff matters. At my age you have to pick and choose what stress you want to put your body under.
i love hearing mark rippetoe talking about a thertain topic !! that expertice is nowhere else found. thx a lot :-)
this really helped me to rethink muscle soreness !
i wasent consideting it to be good before listening to this article but now i know the reasons :-)
I love what you do !
Great video, would love to see more podcasts! I think I've watched everything!
This makes so much sense! I'm not trying to get sore, but it happens. I knew already from other videos that being sore doesn't mean you are making progressn but it never occured to me that this inflamationn in a chronic basis, is bad for the whole body! Thanks so much for pointing that out!
Wow, this is very interesting. I never considered soreness to be the goal but I always considered it to be an indicator that I gave my muscles something to adapt to and thus a reason to grow. I saw it as an indicator that I worked hard enough to get the job done.
It is. It means you've worked out to where you've ripped the muscle. The muscle the recovers, therefore becoming bigger. I actually DO aim to be work to the point of being sore at least once a week.
@@noneya9035 there has been multiple studies disproving this idea lol. Soreness does not make you stronger. Marathon runners will be sore the next day after running a marathon. They have not gotten any stronger no matter how many times they got sore. Only true indicator that you got stronger is the weight you lifted got heavier
working out to get sore is like drinking to get a hangover.
Feel the BURN!!!!!!!
Its a great metaphor for recovery also.
The older you get, the more volume sensitive you become. Alcohol or training.
I'll add to that metaphor. The older you get, the more you appreciate quality over quantity, i.e., you don't drink crap alcohol and you don't do crap exercises. ;-)
But sometimes I still drink to get drunk..
Getting drunk on a fine whiskey is better than getting drunk on Bud Light.
HYEAAAP DRAAAAIHVE
HHGWHY?
Wake up call received. Thanks coach.
This guy sounds like a sober Ron White.
Mind blown, thank you!
Riding a bike (most efficiently) should be done with clips or "clipless" pedals and shoes. This recruits a pulling motion from the hamstrings, calves and glutes. I don't know about other people, but when I've done long rides this way I've been very sore in the following days. But, anecdotally I also seem predisposed to more DOMS than is typical, and I am not an every day rider. In any event this really bolsters Rip's point here.
Thanx Rip - you rock!!:))
Another example of brilliant yet simple common sense, Rip - albeit gained through years of studying a lot of manufactured complexity I'm sure. Thank you. And this wisdom applies not only to the weight room, but to all areas of our lives. In short, "Don't simply follow the mantra chanting herd as it stampedes off a cliff."
Great Stuff!!
Mind blowing.
Great video
I liked simply because of your avatar and username.
My 5x5 leaves me moderately sore 3 days a week. I have a suspicion breaking it down to a 3x5 would let me get a fuller recovery and save some uneccesary stress to the system
How old are you?
Badge of HONOUR👑
Been working with Starting Strength Online Coaching for several weeks now and had wondered why, despite my progress, I've not been sore much at all.
I've been doing SS for a few months now and I've only been a little sore on a couple of occasions. When I first started, and when I initially added chins and that's about it. This is in stark contrast with when I was in my twenties doing bodybuilding splits and being chronically sore.
Most people that start at the correct weight and are eating enough generally are not very sore if sore at all.
However, those of us that start too heavy, add a bunch of extra shit, or just don't eat enough, eventually get sore at some point.
Of the 5 people I've helped through Novice LP the only times I've heard them mention being sore were A) After a running test for their Unis PE requirements or B) After a 2 week break. As for myself I got sore and realized I wasn't eating enough and being a little too aggressive at the start, on top of trying to do Sanda twice a week. Quickly fixed those issues.
The only time I really got sore was, get this, when I did some negative chins. (I'm too old, overweight, and weak to do an actual chin up, yet.) Man-O-Man, was I SORE!!!!! We switched right away to lat pull downs with a close, supinated grip, simulating a chin-up. Been doing those a couple weeks and, guess what? Weights have been increasing with NO soreness. Only negative is having to go to my local commercial gym to use the machine there. At least I get to observe the Bro Tribe, doing whatever it is Bros do in commercial gyms.
Sad, indeed.
Will Wyatt Where can I go to start Starting Strength? I'm an intermediate lifter(3 years), on a budget college student lol
I like how he slates CrossFit simply by using the word “community”
I like "cult" better to denote Crossfit.
The most effective way to track your progress is with a workout journal - it will tell you if you're getting stronger, overtraining, and so on, without relying on your memory about what you did during your last workout. Things like soreness and getting a pump are fairly meaningless when it comes to measuring your progress.
9:30 - Where Mark ripps Crossfit :'D
Without mentioning CrossFit. Love it.
Love this shit!!!
Of course I hear this when I get back pain, lawls!
Ive recently changed from Heavy Duty - whith which I had decent results - to starting strength, because I noticed (finaly after 10 years of beeing dumb af) that the constant stress from inflamation caused so many bad symptoms like respiratory diseases, bad sleep, feeling beaten up and tired all the time... like haveing the flu for 10 years straight.
an here i am sitting sore and proud (from heavier loads and not chronically, though; so "good soreness") just to realise that its not good. ^^ Well, learned something again. Thanks!
I made the mistake of emphasizing the eccentric portion of my deadlift reps the other day. Now I’m struggling to move because my hamstrings are very tight… I wish I listened to this the other day instead of binging on comments from the haters videos.
I stopped squatting for like 3 months, then started again with 50% load reduction, and I couldn't believe how sore my legs got. Could barely walk for a few days. Also had to delay my scheduled workout (5x5 3 times a week). But the soreness did go away after a few days, and I'm squatting heavier and heavier with no soreness at all. It was interesting though, that with the soreness, I could directly feel what muscles are being worked out. And with a full range squat, it's nearly the whole darned leg and glutes. Was almost like a feel good soreness.
Great baritone voice
I would like Rip to address burning next. Or a link to a lovely tirade he's done already. Case in point: My gymbro neighbor asks, "have you heard of 100s? You start the bench press with a really low weight, but you do 100 of them. It burns!" To which the appropriate response would be, so what. I just want to hear Rip's take on burning.
My understanding is, burning is essentially a gains killer, and you should either lift a heavier weight and do less reps, or if you are burning, take a rest-pause, and then get back on it. Because volume leads to gains, not burning nor soreness.
Is there an argument to say that more eccentric focused movements that produce DOMS will increase hypertrophy results? And therefore progressively increasing the load with a focus on eccentric movements will make you bigger?
This is not me questioning video, but asking to learn 👍🏼💪🏼
I had a little knee soreness on my last workout for squats, so I used a closer foot position this time and holy cow, do my legs hurt now.
I get sore even with doubles and doubles help you get stronger !! Rick you're funny with all those things you say man!!!
Is it fair to say that soreness tells you that whatever you just did was enough to overload your muscles for that single session? And then of course it is up to you to continue training with enough added weight/frequency to continue to apply progressive overload? Or do you mean people will just completely stop getting sore after training for enough time?
so heavy power cleans and power snatches shoulnt get you sore?
But dose not high reps can make you incrase work capacity?
If you're sore that means you've overtrained. Start off as light as possible and eventually add resistance and you will and should never be sore and you will get as big and strong as heck.
Soreness is weakness leaving the body...
I did 275 for 4x9 on first day of squat for smolov squat program and im sore as fuck. It cant be helped sometimes. I have been running canditos 6 week program and never felt sore yet i progressed consistently but the rep range and volume are never high. Simply put its a new stimulus and my body needs to adapt.
I always get DOMS after hard workout. I try to use rest, massage and jacuzzi to help alleviate it.
So being sore doesn't make you stronger, does it casue more hypertrophy since you do more eccentric work to get sore?and if so, is it necessarily to be sore to get bigger?I appreciate any answer :)
krzyshtofer, this video is from a powerlifting perspective. A bodybuilder will benefit from controlled negatives. My experience with slow negatives is that they help increase size and strength.
Branch Warren admits he still gets "sore as f#%k" the next day.
It is not necessary, but it is likely. You've got to consider that the soreness itself it really a feeling, a somatic communication with the brain. A sensation. What underlies that pain is inflammation. The inflammatory response is the immune system performing its work of rebuilding the matrix of the cells. The body does not "like" being damaged. It represents an immune challenge, because free proteins are released into the extra-cellular space. This triggers immune cells.
The inflammatory factors come in and begin the process of reconstituting the cellular structure as it was prior to the stress, with the caveat that the muscle fibers will be larger as a result of the adaptation.
In the powerlifting perspective, they are more focused on neural adaptation, as training in the range of 1-5 reps tends to produce. At this level of intensity, sets do not last very long. They are primarily alactic and lactic (glycolytic) in nature. There is not as great a deal of "metabolic" stress in these sets as there would be in a longer set (say 10 reps). There is greater metabolic buildup of both lactic and aerobic metabolic byproducts in longer sets, and sets with greater eccentric tempos.
So for bodybuilders, whose focus is hypertrophy, which has more to do with mechanical work volume and time under tension, the nature of their work (which is longer rep work) tends to correlate with more soreness. The soreness itself isn't what is causing hypertrophy. Its a byproduct of the stress and the adaptation response. If you as a bodybuilder are progressively overloading, then any overloading event in these larger rep range sets will tend to make you sore.
But make careful note that the soreness itself is NOT responsible for the hypertrophy. It is the result of the relatively greater level of eccentric work that comes from longer sets and greater time under tension. In fact, however, the eccentric phase of a lift tends not to be the main contributor to hypertrophic gains. Eccentric work can create greater eccentric and isometric strength, but the concentric work of bodybuilding is the biggest contributor to muscle size increase. So soreness shouldn't be the point of bodybuilding work either. I've seen some guys who recommend really long sets and long rep tempos (5-6 second negatives), which I don't advise. Keep the negative short, and increase the length of the concentric phase.
Gotta admit I love a little bit of soreness
Bullocks. I've gotten sore plenty of times from static work.
Next topic: isolation lifting/exercises aka CURLS
Ok soreness doesn't necessarily make you stronger but does it grow the muscle and make it bigger?
So, I should focus on the concentric effort and making progress in force production (power) and the eccentric is not so important so long as I control the weight enough?
DCM ASH you should focus on executing the movement properly i.e. doing the whole movement as fast as you can control it because unnecessary time under tension costs energy.
No. Don't avoid the negative's just make sure you adapt to them, regular traning not too much volume for proper recovery
So, if soreness is a negative impact on health, how do gain muscle without getting sore? Did I miss that? I listened twice.
Lift frequently, focusing on progressive overload without putting a great emphasis on the eccentric portions of lifts.
Marc young . Primarily to gain muscle, or get stronger ?
Both.
Marc young ok, put simply: buy starting strength and 531, eat well, sleep well, follow the program.
Yeah... if you listened twice and didn't get this you might want to take up something less intellectually taxing. Because lifting heavy things and putting them down might be above your level.
Let that sink in for a moment.
i fking love to be sore!!
Cycling a bike definitely can make you sore. Same kind of soreness you get after squats.
And, when you're new, your butt hurts like hell.
Except that the quads won't grow from bike.
Wrong though. My quads definitely grew when I first started cycling. Obviously it won't grow them as much as a squat would but beginners will definitely see some growth.
john doe My quads grew too. And got a lot harder.
Yeah there can be a numbness when you're low on energy but I think Mark here is talking about post workout soreness. I don't get soreness from cycling anymore and my quads are fucking huge as well so they've adapted to my lifestyle
Ummmm... I definitely been sore from riding a bike.
But does it mean your getting bigger?
So what do I do if I'm sore all week from squats anyway. I'm not trying to get sore, but from two heavy squat days... Basically my legs are sore 5 days out of the week.
This may sound insane, but try squatting three times a week. I had this exact problem, and going from 1-2 times a week to 3 times a week helped me prevent the extreme soreness in legs that you're talking about =) (it also doesn't have to be 3 heavy sessions - you can do two heavy and one lighter)
The solution to soreness from x is more x.
Less reps more weight
5 sets
Or 3 going heavier
So is he saying to scrap focusing on the negative?
I would classify myself as a mix of cosmetic weightlifting and strength training. I do dead lifts, squats and oly's but also a lot of isolation work as well. I always try to make the negative half the speed of the positive. 1 sec or less up and always try to make it 2 sec down. Im always sore, all the time if i go 36-48 hours without lifting I'm back to normal.
The eccentric portion (negative) of a lift causes the most soreness. So if you slow this portion down you may be able to cause more stress to the muscles with less weight (greater time under tension). However if you have access to heavier weights and are aiming for progressive overload (the number one factor in gaining size and strength) then you just need to control the weight for the negative, not exaggerate it. I would say that 48 hours of muscle soreness is about average if you are a natural and are doing high-volume work. But if you are wanting to do higher frequency (working out the same muscle groups again sooner) then I would say dont slow down the negative (slower than just a controlled eccentric portion) and you may even have to reduce the volume of work if your soreness is excessive / stopping you from getting in the gym again sooner.
Bodybuilders can use the method of just increasing the time under tension and not lifting very heavy and get huge as they can do WAAAAAY more volume without recovery being as big of a hindernace before their next session. Furthermore, they often don't want to lift heavy if they dont have to as they are trying to prevent injury, but lifting a weight hundreds of thousands of times with poor form (will still get them big on juice) could have potential for injuries in the longterm even if its comparatively light.
If what you are doing is working for you (after 9 months since posting your comment) then continue what you are doing. But if you are a natural and feel that the soreness is a hindernace and you have access to plenty of weight I would focus more on progressing on the concentric portion or getting in the gym more frequently rather than increasing soreness in this manner. Hope this helps despite the lateness in reply.
I will admit I like a bit of soreness. dohhhhh
an example would be Kali Muscle did bodyweight push ups in prison 500 a day (producing muscle mass) and it was able to bench heavy when he got out so how can one not get stronger doing the same movement over and over even though the weight had not progressed much? I truly think strength training get you stronger faster but it's not the only way to get you stronger
Thecheckmate777 Kali Muscle is taking that Proton powder though.
Kali muscle prob not best example as he takes steroids, I have been prison (U.K) and from what I saw was that in the weight room you get very little time to "train", like 20-25 min max so people are lifting heavy very quickly with hardly any rest inbetween and getting lean,
I think there are many variables to consider like diet (in the prison I was at, it was very high in carbs)
also the prison environment is "dangerous" so maybe there's a psychological adaptation to getting strong a.s.a.p
But as far as training in the cell under a 23 hour lock down using just body weight goes often makes me wonder myself how it is that that makes a person stronger,
it's most likely in junction with access to the weight room and overall body weight increasing over time due to diet/environment.
Also Marks program is levelled at novice lifters in civilian environment/mind set (pertaining to the articles)
I think there are different routes/philosophy one can take to accomplish the goal (what ever that may be).
Yet I think ss is designed to get you from A>B in most efficient, effective and most practical no nonsense manner.
I did calisthenics for a year and my bench was way stronger than when I used to actually train for it....Obviously there are a lot of variables but the fact is that strength is strength and can be developed in a lot of different ways
Was that Pastor Nina in the thumbnail?
BAAAAALLLLL DRIIIIIIVE
If you're still getting DOMS after a few months of training then something is wrong.
Daniel Mckenzie eccentric only?
I had doms regularly after months of traning.. It was really weird i would not get sore the day after working out but 3-4 days later in particular bodypart.. So my soreness for every bodypart was essentially delayed 3-4days... Then i started taking long breaks in between workouts then i had the soreness right after working out like normal.. I think its a sign of overtraning and lack of recovery
I’ve trained for 1.5 years, have seen great progress, and I still get sore. I don’t see it as a bad thing. My workout is centered around all major compound lifts. I eat plenty, but I don’t consistently get great sleep. My chest is sore after almost all of my chest days. The fact of the matter is that if you’re putting more weight on the bar, it will more than likely make you sore.
Mark uses "stronger" to mean "being able to lift heavier". Stronger could mean that you can lift more frequently, more quickly, or a greater number of times. He says that soreness does nothing for you, because he believes the only thing that matters is that you can lift more weight.
I say that's only true if you share his opinion. Personally I care about being able to lift more often, more quickly, and with greater endurance. Therefore I use muscle soreness as a gauge for whether I have achieved a good workout. If you only care about lifting more weight, then soreness doesn't help. You could just drop the weight and never do the eccentric. That's what the Olympic lifters do. They get strong, but their muscles don't grow as big as a bodybuilder who does lots of reps, focuses on eccentric contraction and stretch, and gets sore. Mark won't tell you all of this because he is fixated on lifting as much as possible, and that's all he cares about.
You can decide for yourself whether strength or endurance is more important. They both have their place in everyday life. I mainly do 20 rep sets because I have found that this saves my joints from excessive stress. And I can train more often. This strikes a good balance between strength and endurance in my situation.
Nothing like a sweet whole-body soreness after a football match as if you got beaten the shit out of you once in a while, though...
Heavier weights & fewer reps may not cause soreness, but builds strength.
Moderate weights & higher reps cause soreness and increased muscle density, but doesn't make you very strong.
Hema Swaroop higher volume doesn't cause myofribular hypertrophy, aka muscle density.
both of these are strong broscience
People just want to be able to label things black or white, for they fear the unknown. Brosience is strong with Hema Swaroop. Lets take 2 guys, one trains with super high volume and high reps with 5 different exercises for a muscle, does this for 5 years and still does the same weight. This guy wont be any bigger than he was 5 years ago. Take the other guy, if he does 1 set of 4-8 reps of a given exercise, gets stronger over the course of 5 years and is able to double his strength, he will be massive, that is a given, even if he never got sore, never worked with high volume or high reps. So i call bullshit.
@homeboi wazza: The problem with your scenario is that the guy with the higher volume, while always pushing a lighter weight, will NOT be pushing the same weight over time. If he starts with 100 lbs, 10 sets of 15 reps, and that becomes easy, he will move to 110 lbs, working back up to that max volume until that too becomes easy. You assume that higher volume precludes increases in weight moved...not so.
My example was that he didnt increase weight, but did high volume and by only volume and not progression, you wont reach the goals. My point is that volume is not the most important thing people make it out to be, but that progression is far more important. Of course you can combine the two, i never said otherwise.
Working out to be sore gives you zzzzzzzzzzeeero gains
HwHile
Yet everyone in your gym constantly looks the same and I don't see many WRs coming out of there either.
but without soreness you will have smaller muscles that are not as strong
Jeff Cavaliere has a more interesting insight into soreness, check it out here:
ruclips.net/video/CwogJspeuAA/видео.html
No mention of the tendons 👎