The Lemon Tree Mystery: Unveiling Daenerys Targaryen's Hidden Truth
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- Опубликовано: 13 июн 2024
- Daenerys Targaryen has not had an easy go of things in her life prior to the start of A Song of Ice and Fire. Although her childhood is largely a confusing blur, one of her only happy, but simultaneously traumatizing, childhood memories is her home in Braavos with the lemon tree outside of her window and the red door that closed behind her forever.
But as fans have rightfully pointed out, lemon trees don't grow in Braavos. So, what does Dany's obsession with the lemon tree actually represent?
Content Of This Video:
00:00 The Lemon Tree Flaw
02:15 The Prevailing Lemon Tree Theories
03:54 The Unreliable Narrator
05:56 The Meaning Of Lemons
07:12 Memories Of Home
08:36 The Imaginary Lemon Tree
11:24 Dany's Fantasies Vs. Reality
12:58 The Fictions Of The Iron Throne And Home
14:25 Conclusion
15:52 Outro 
Развлечения
I've always found it terribly sad that Visarys doesn't have his own voice in ASOIAF.
He was 7 years old when his family was killed, leaving him to flee across the narrow sea with a new-born child and no one to protect them. He was able to keep them alive, but I always have to wonder what the cost of that was. Dany says that they had to rely on the charity of others, and her brother's ego couldn't take it, but as the old saying goes "everything has a price", and Visarys was the one paying it.
In the books we only see him from Dany's point of view, as a mad man who would hurt her at a moment's notice, and in the show he is shown as utterly irredeemable. But I have always wondered how Visarys learnt to act that way. When you're in a situation like that, you learn to do what you have to to survive, and despite everything Visarys kept them both alive.
I think that Visarys clung onto the idea that if he got the IronThrone he would be safe, and everything he went through would be worth it.
Dany clung to the idea of safety, of a red door and lemon trees, before following in her brother's footsteps and clinging to the idea of the Iron Throne.
Visarys doesn't get a pov chapter, and I think that it's very important. Whatever Dany is remembering with the Red Door, Visarys had something to do with it, and I believe that he may even have been protecting her from what is behind it. I think that it's inevitable that Dany will return to Bravos, and I personally think it's likely that Bravos won't survive.
(I think it's also important to point out that Theon is another character with little to no memory of his childhood, who was kept hostage (by the Starks), and very likely abused in his childhood by Euron. Theon's also clung to the idea of home, but when he got there he was hated, which caused him to act irrationally in a desperate need for approval before being abandoned.)
Thinking on it makes me think Visarys sold himself into a pleasure house for a time. Red is common in pleasure zones and maybe the lemon tree was a wall painting.
Yep, that is an excellent point. I have always been suspicious of their suddenly being turned out upon Willem Darrey's death, servants don't have that authority, But if Viserys hit puberty and was no longer valuable to either their patron or the brothel owner (and the maths lines up with Viserys being 13/14 at this time) then I can easily imagine him coming up with that lie as a continuation of the lie he was already telling her.
@@sd5371 that's a very interesting take, while I don't know how accurate it could be it would be very good for story telling
She might've dreamt it. Sometimes it's possible to confuse memories and dreams from far back in earliest childhood.
Yeah I think that's definitely a possibility, because even if it doesn't exist in reality then this thought stuck in her head has to have come from somewhere.
@@HillsAliveYT this still means that sometime in her life had seen a lemon tree to know how it looks because to dream something you have to have seen it sometime except if it was a p.e. bloodraven sent dream .... as it was intentional means it is important for the story so either it's a true memory which shows a different past or a false memory from a magical source which makes room for future plot , dismissing it as a mere false memory created from inconsistent childhood and natural causes makes it irrelevant to the story and then why to even be "intentional" ?
@@annavafeiadou4420 “to dream something you have to have seen it”
True in general, but Daenerys is an exception. She has prophetic dreams
@@loooongneck ahhh yes and no, first she has Quaithe dreams that are either prophetic or sugestions from Quaithe herself but we don't know if all her dreams or the dreams she had before was prophetic and the lemon tree dream is from the old ones . Second she doesn't just see a lemon tree she knows it's called a lemon tree even a greenseer like bran sees things but has to have a reference to name them otherwise he uses improvisations. And even if it is a prophetic vision it still isn't caused by a tormented childhood or psychological issues as the original post said but magic and sorcery which is a totally different issue. Now if we accept that for some reason her dreams from when she was a toddler were caused by a greenseer or sorcery and those memories were planted there still is not because of trauma or torment but a valid theory of the fantastic which would be interesting the least while the trauma theory is not.
I think Dany fantasized the "House with Door" but misinterpreted as actual memorial due to her age/inexperience combined with her brothers encouragement.
Since Dany mentions that she's been in all of the free cities, it feels very plausible that she just merged her memories of a few different places together. I feel like most people have had dreams of being in their childhood home then walking outside and its their adult garden or something like that
I think it may be a metaphor of sexual abuse, she does not remember the event itself, but if the sensitive details, although distorted, a red door, a kind and affectionate man who presented her with a bought lemon, she was fascinated and he explained as are the lemon trees just before abusing her. In the books it is said that they travel a lot from city to city living poorly thanks to the charity of other people, in the books it is mentioned that Viserys had to put up with the abuse of these people, but it is not described to what degree...
Interesting theory!
I feel like this take makes so much sense considering how often other characters refer to her as “a whore”. Even though there is a lookalike who is being forced to prostitute herself as Daenerys, perhaps this is less of a way to slander her and more of a way to earn money by piggybacking off what was already happening, at least at first?
It would also be a nice parallel to another book character who never appear in the show as well: Aeron Greyjoy.
Aeron was sexually abused by Euron when he was young. The location that he was abuse has a door with a rusted hinge. This caused him to have a recurring nightmare about a rusted hinge until the present day and he had to turn to religion as a coping mechanism.
Why communicate this through metaphor when Danyraes faces explicit sexual abuse in her very first chapter in the series already?
@@Shredow2 It is odd. Is very likely the lemon tree doesn't had to do anything with sexual abuse.
"when life doesn't give you a lemon tree, burn the shit out of King's Landing." 🍋🍋🍋
Another cryptic and yet oddly specific prophecy. Very ASOIAF
This is a weird analogy but I see Lemongate as Renly's peach and the fanbase as Stannis, we're so obsessed with trying to figure out some deep conspiracy behind it when it's actually just a symbol of a far more intimate theme.
I like the idea that there was never a singular "House with a Red Door" in the first place, as in, it was never a single place, she is merging several places she lived in into one in order to create a "home" she could dream of going back to when in reality there never was such a place.
I think, even if it was an error by George, the amount of attention the lemon tree has garnered will make him retroactively make it important
I found that theory interesting until I read Sam III in AFFC: 'Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty (…)'. Dany lived in a Manse with servants, so I think it’s most possible that there was a garden with a Lemon tree.
I think this is GRRM's way to erase his flaw and to hint that Dany lived in Braavos with a Lemon Tree
Yeah honestly that wouldn't hugely shock me either, once I realized that the mention of Dany's lemon tree stopped so early on it definitely occurred to me that it was just a flub, LOL but obviously it being a mistake is also the most boring theory.
It makes sense!
idk why they say that trees don't grow on Braavos, because that's simply untrue, we know this from Arya arriving in Braavos in AFFC, I'm almost certain that she mentions some islands and lands being covered in pine trees
Yeah, I feel like the first Alicent/Larys scene in HotD was George telling fans to shut up about it 😅😅
Then WHY did he bring up a lemon tree in the Braavos winds of winter chapter......
Dany I is one of my favourite chapters in the series. We're suddenly thrown across the world with no context for much of what is said in the chapter.
As for her early childhood, we have two options. Her very vague memories of images and happiness, or Viserys's stories of that time. It comes down to how much you trust Viserys to be telling her the truth.
Something that stands out for me is the way she is formally announced at Drogo's party. Viserys is introduced as Viserys of House Targaryen. She is introduced as Danaerys Stormborn.
I think the house with red door is somewhere we haven't been yet. Starfall.
Wow, I actually don't think I've heard Starfall as a suggestion before! But I actually don't think her vague memories or Viserys' stories are very close to the truth.
Not sure if Starfall is mentioned in book one; if it is : it’s a possibility, if not: it isn’t.
" Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle
has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers. They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning,deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys’s Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat. And they told how afterward Ned had carried Ser Arthur’s
sword back to the beautiful young sister who awaited him in a castle called Starfall on the shores of the Summer Sea. The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting
violet eyes."
GoT|Chapter 6|Catelyn I
@@marigold2459 ooh right, that’s why I didn’t consider Starfall: Ashara went there.
The answer to Tywin’s “riddle” to Tyrion is a “nunnery” it’s a Shakespeare reference. This explains that the Tower of Joy is either a actual Nunnery with septas or a whorehouse (or both mimicking that one Nun sect from history). Any case, the remaining Targaryens refugees went there to get wetnurses, bastards for body doubles, and since it’s on the way to Starfall from Storm’s End by land. Since Daenerys is Aerys/Ashara’s baby, Daenerys can’t be “exchanged” to her own mother, so therefore can’t be hid in the same location. Initially, when separated, the locations were: Illyrio’s for Aegon, Oberyn’s for Rhaenys, Tyrosh for Daenerys, and Bravos for Viserys. After Robert/Tywin seemed to give up the search: Viserys (or his keeper) collected Daenerys claiming assassins since he wanted the throne for himself and he knew Aegon’s crew needed Daenerys to hatch the eggs.
People who have been victims of severe abuse in childhood often have memory problems, since not only is the event erased, but the entire structure of the mind can be changed, making these people unable to remember the events well, I think that Dany suffered sexual abuse, the world of GOT is based on traumatized children who must survive in a hostile world and the one who is most traumatized is Dany.
I always wondered if there is something wrong with daenerys memorys of her past. We meet her when she's 13, an age when you can recollect your memorys pretty well and all we learn of her past life is the red door with the lemontree in braavos and one book later that she knows that there are pickpockets in the free cities . She says she was in all free cities and lifed with the nobles there but we never get one memory of that no details like the titan of braavos or the bells of norvos or the whores in lys or a person she met and liked or disliked. The starks constantly talk and think about their memories and stories even bran remembers a moment when he was fishing with his older brothers. I don't know if it is intentional or not that I feel like she had no life before the start of the books. I mean tyrion had a not less traumatic childhood and remembers a lot of stuff that happened around him.
It's also interesting that before the dothraki daenerys never combined the house with the red door with the red keep. Only when she gets power for the first time (or maybe her dragondreams triggerd it) she sees the two as one and the same or as some kind of endgole.
There almost certainly is. I mean, even in the storyline that we read in A Song of Ice and Fire, we can see that Dany's understanding of things or memories of what happened are often hugely different from what actually did happen, so it logically follows that her memories of the past are radically different from reality as well.
Interestingly, children actually don't remember a lot from childhood unless they have someone or something to remind them, so Dany having very vague and very few memories is pretty realistic. It also makes sense that the Starks have such clear memories, because they were always in the same places doing the same things with the same people, and hearing the same stories over and over again. I definitely think that it's intentional and I agree that it seems like Dany's life started at the start of the books, but the contrast between her and everyone else does actually make sense psychologically too.
@@HillsAliveYT the difference is trauma. The Stark' s children had a stable environment and most of them also had a loving family. Dayneris had a very unstable environment, no parental attachment and a lot of abuse from her brother. You don't form a stable memory of your childhood on this situation.
I like that theory, but I would take a GRRM mistake over a made up memory. I think the lemon tree is very important. Quaithe wants her to remember who she is. Why? Dany knows she is a Targaryen. She does not have to remember how to be a dragon. So what gives? The only thing she regularly remembers is the house with the red door and the lemon tree outside her window. The text does not say that the lemon tree was GROWING. For all we know there was a cart with a lemon tree painted on the side or a flag or banner with a lemon tree on it that she could see from her window. Also it was a HOUSE. Not a mansion or palace or cottage. House. The word house is meant to invoke images of home. I am almost sure that Quaithe in her RED mask, is telling Dany to remember the RED door.
The issue isn't that there IS a lemon tree that was mentioned back in a clash of kings, it's the fact that up to and including a pre-release chapter of the winds of winter we have characters calling people stupid for not knowing that lemons don't grow north of king's landing.... There are no less than 3 instances i can think of off the top of my head of it happening.
This isn't some obscure mistake from the 1990s, this is something intentionally inserted into the most recent upcoming novel in a chapter IN BRAAVOS where a guard rattles off 3 of 4 southern locations where lemons grow and calls his friend an idiot because they're north of King's landing and they dont grow there either.
I like the idea that Danny just got the cities mixed up, because 1) she was a child 2) they were hiding and hopping cities all the time and 3) her only source is her brother, who is very unreliable.
The house with the red door might just be an amalgamation of different places she once called home, and that now only exists in her head.
Lemongate -To me the thing she wanted was probably subconscious..She inside wishes for a home and family:all of which she had ripped from her. She was alone and lonely.
But it is not just the Lemon tree... correct me, if I am wrong, but she also remembers running towards the red door across the grass... now please show me, where in the crowded, island based, foggy city is a meadow you can run across...
She either lived at the Palace of the Sealord, or she did not live in Braavos. As in "Or the House with the red door is not in Braavos"...
it could easily be the house of a rich and powerful merchant or aristocrat in Braavos, it doesn't have to be the Sealord's Palace itself
@@Dell-ol6hbBut that doesn't explain the supposedly lemon tree as There are no lemon trees in Braavos. So even if we accept that Dany and her brother lived in a Palace within Braavos at some point it shouldn't have been possible for Dany to witness a lemon tree. This strongly suggests that Dany is experiencing false memory syndrome.
Just like “Slayer of Lies” is from Oedipus (I.E. Daenerys is a bastard, Aegon(YGriff) isn’t (sorta, it’s complicated). “Sun rises in the west…” is from Greek Myth, from there it is said about a king (in this case a Queen Daenerys) will never give up his (her) crown. Keeping in mind Daenerys mentioned Maegor, foreshadowing her death on the throne, and you get Daenerys will never choose any other choice but the Iron throne to her folly.
So, the Red Door/Lemon tree must be real, so she can not choose it as the better choice. The “not make war, kill your nephew” choice and the “don’t burn cities filled with innocent small folk” needs a alternative to exist to make that plot have gravity. Not only is the Iron Throne not hers by succession laws (sorta, that’s complicated too, Targaryen foundation probably would have excepted Daenerys over Aegon, but not current Targaryen), but she should take it since it won’t make her happy.
Interesting, because I take Dany's ultimate choice as not a choice between seizing the Iron Throne or choosing the house with the red door, but choosing to do anything in order to potentially make her fantasy a reality versus accepting reality as it is.
@@HillsAliveYT most of the book titles are anti-war/war is bad, “broken man speech”, all the people Quaithe is warning about are warmongers who will help Daenerys get the throne, going to the East will be to long a travel time to return to fight the others much less messing with Aegon as established king, etc…
It’s all about war is bad… even when there seems like there is no other choice, even when it is foretold (Meera vs Jojen). The right choice should be a third option.
I just found your channel and I LOVE your discussions. Is a breath of fresh air coming from this fandom!
Don't know if this night be read by anyone but here goes nothing. I feel like George draws a parallel with Dany and Sansa with the lemon tree for Dany and lemon cakes for Sansa
didn't the show (hotd) already pretty much gave a nod to lemongate in the episode where larys strong told alicent about the moon tea? in the mural behind larys in that shot, lemon trees with obvious lemon fruits are markedly painted while larys is making cryptic talk about alicent being an "unusual plant" that's still somehow thriving in king's landing despite being an outsider?
This also the highlights the traits of Larys Strong as mentioned in this video. A "sweet", intelligent yet crippled and plain courtier who likes to listen to gossip and eat cake being extremely dangerous and despicable underneath.
Great video, and I noticed something.
Dany, like every other Targaryen, is a dreamer who wants to restore an ancient order, and GRR Martin is essentially deconstructing the idea of a dreamer, a revolutionary that can make their dreams a reality, and the “good ol’ days” rhetoric.
I think Dany’s character arc will end the way you described, with her having a mental breakdown over this dissonance of reality and fantasy, but I also think it will usher in a new era.
With the extinction of the Targaryens, the dreamers and the remnants of the old world are now gone. It will be a time for reason and innovation, one that will allow Westeros the progress to the next stage of development.
Yes and no. Dany wants to change things too. Shes not out to make Valyria great again. She thinks she’s the savior of the oppressed. She’s idealistic. To use an imperfect 20th century analogy, she’s more Mao than Hitler.
Really happy to see you covering another one of my favorite topics in this story! I don't ascribe too heavily to the theories of Daenerys being a fake (as interesting as that would be considering F/Aegon's existence) and this video perfectly encapsulates why I think that. Given the scope of the narrative it's very easy to forget that Daenerys has never had her own identity, she was an object from birth until the death of Khal Drogo. A significant part of her story involves her avoiding being turned back into an object by others who covet her body, mind, name, or possessions and the process of avoiding that end forces the extremities of her personality to become amplified and overtake her already-weak core identity. I think you're 100% correct that the house with the red door is an idea in Daenerys' unconscious mind given form and is simply a longing for something she quite literally never knew (this could even have a sinister element considering how she has had her dreams invaded in the past). I believe Daenerys was forced to form her identity outside of her body and circumstances in order to survive and cope with her status as an object with no agency, which is actually where her inner dragon is coming from, NOT from some inherent blood sickness she's responsible for fighting off. In fact if you think about it, Viserys taught her how to create a separate self through example, so it makes sense she could adopt the dragon persona so naturally...it's basically the only method of identity formation she's been shown, and adds a layer of irony that this identity that Viserys taught her and forced her to adopt is what ultimately killed him (I may be getting into conjecture here, though).
People romanticize her relationship with Drogo since her own perspective on him is so warm, but it's clear that Drogo is a simple barbarian (though maybe less simple than most) who views Daenerys as "his" -- still an object -- who he grants scraps of agency as a gesture of affection in exchange for non-resistant sexual gratification and the promise of heirs (which to be fair is, I guess, progressive for the Dothraki since you could just put your wife in a cage if you wanted to). He has an almost entirely negative effect on her circumstances and sense of identity with the sole exception that she was at least able to actualize her sense of self under his yoke, which would 100% not have been allowed under Viserys. Still, that doesn't take away the fact that he is a violent rapist pedophile and Daenerys is his victim through right of might, it's good he is dead and Daenerys is better off without people who objectify her (including nice guy Jorah, as much as I feel for the guy).
Although I do think the TV show is responsible for some of this romanticizing of Drogo/Dany, mainly because Jason Mamoa is one of the most attractive men on the planet and the characters are aged up so you can remove "pedophile" from Drogo's list of crimes. Personally I don't see "violent rapist" as a HUGE step up, but it's still a step I guess.
Yeah, I don't give much credence to the idea of Dany being a fake either, as a lot of the inconsistencies that serve as evidence that she's not a Targaryen can probably be explained by the fact that a metric fuckton of her thoughts and ideas in the contemporary storyline are drastically different from the reality of what happened, ergo her POV really can't be relied on. Every character is an unreliable narrator, but Dany is next level because she has experienced so much trauma and has absolutely no one to rely on or any real north star to guide her. Her perception of how people should treat her is so warped it's practically on a different planet from any well-adjusted person, and she constantly reframes people, experiences, and even her own actions to make them not horrific when they're truly revolting.
Dany's feelings about Drogo are one of the best examples of how intensely she can rationalize things, the fact that she truly believes that she loves him when he was an adult man raping a child goes to show how far her perceptions of things can be from reality. And I agree that GoT sort of improved their audience reception, but I do not know how anyone can look at their early sex scenes and not understand exactly what the fuck is going on and that he's a genuinely terrible person regardless of how Dany's opinion of him changed and regardless of the fact that she was aged up for TV.
The empathy you show and your centralisation of theme in your theories, as well as sincere interest in the female perspective of characters (especially in a work from a writer like George who very much self-describes as a feminist) really set your channel apart ^^
Although very unlikely it would be interesting if she wasn't a Targaryen. Similar to young Griff both are pawns and presented as proper royalty. Power believes where men believes it resides.
Your take on the lemons is refreshing!
I love this interpretation! It sets up such interesting potential developments for Daeny's character. I would love to see her go through that crisis at some point in the books, when she gets at a point where she is ready to face the trauma her mind disguised as this warped memory to protect from the incomprehensible, painful reality she had to survive at that time in her childhood. It would be such a nice, intricate exploration of trauma, its aftermath and the many stages of working through it. Whether she manages to work through and grow past it healthily or not in that moment.
Man, all dany needed was a hug and a good family, all tywinn needed was a proper father figure to say “i’m proud of you son”, and robert needed to do some fuckin yoga.
There’s a part of me that thinks Bobby B would’ve done well to marry a woman like Lyanna, whom he idolized, who was fierce enough to chasten him and make him quail with a “yes dear….” I’m not saying it would’ve been good for Lyanna (or someone like her) mind you -because dealing with a spouse who makes dumb choices is a huge chore - but a firm wifey he was infatuated with might’ve straightened him out more than yoga. Guys like that in my experience are absolute squishes deep down and absolutely can be turned by a woman who like the mom in “my big fat Greek wedding” treats him like the head but knows she’s the neck, and she can turn him. But she has to be willing to put up with a lot of BS.
@@laurashortill8623you just described olenna Tyrell
@@Hasisi-xd6pc True! Oleanna was also much savvier than Lyana about breaking off her engagement and getting a match she could live with, apparently... though to be fair since Lyana isn't a POV character, we have no idea whether had a plan or what her plan might've been regarding Robert Baratheon and Prince Rhaegar.
Aw man, as much as I love Preston Jacobs theories, this is a perfect explanation that fits with the themes presented by grrm.
Your analysis with the trauma/PTSD lens is super insightful and helps clarify some murky bits of the text.
People obsess over so many Secret Targaryen theories, but what if the real twist is that Dany is a fake Targaryen? Wouldn't that be a better subversion of all that traditional ideology if the person who actually brought back Dragon was not in fact the Blood of the Dragon?
I’m always excited to see your GoT / ASOIAF videos. Thank you for your work.
Agree
Thank you! 💜
Well, to see a lemon tree in your dream usually denotes a good symbol. Dreaming of a leman tree represents the presence of someone who is very kind, right-minded, faithful and compassionate around you. This person is respected and appreciated by everyone. A red door in dreams also means safety, protection, and good luck too. What I think she was dreaming of was Varys watching over her from afar.
Love your videos. Keep up the good work!
Thank you! 💚
Watching your videos on Daenerys really makes me lose hope in Dany ever ending as somewhat of a hero. Makes me think she will end up more like a traumatized and unstable and sadistic villain. This isn’t a criticism, just a really sad realization.
would you do a video on the unkiss? I love your take on characters
Yeah definitely! Dissociation like that is actually very common in ASOIAF characters and I think the unkiss is a good example of Sansa’s particular style of it.
@@HillsAliveYT while on the subject of the unkiss, would you do an essay on SanSan? I personally really dislike it and feel that too many people romanticize a really disturbing relationship. I’d be curious on your thoughts on top of other things but I don’t want to be pushy.
I've always thought that it's real; however, the memory is so vague, simplified and covered with the veil of importance and exceptionalism I never doubted it's a metaphor of a home she idealized, craved and could never have. It's also a drastically significant part of her character in the books to me, that is sadly completely omitted from the show
What if Danaerys is actually the Mummer’s Dragon? We know John is actually a Targereyan, so what if Faegar is just a red herring, and Dani is actually the fake Targereyan? She could actually just be a Velarayon, or someone else with a terciary relationship to Valyria, but not actually a Targereyan!
My grandfather had personal experience of trauma induced false memories. When he was a toddler he was rushed to the hospital becuase he accidentally spilled boiling mikl on his chest. Of course he was placed in an ambulance but my father later informed me that his father misremembered being transported in the back of a pickup truck and supposed no longer in pain. I'm sure my grandfather was groaning in agony on the way to the hospital. You can't truly repress your recollection of a truamatic experience but truana can warp your memories.
"This door was only for you. I will now go and close it forever."
- Franz Kafka, "Before the Law"
The lemon tree could have been at a noble's house who purposely showed their wealth by having a tree that shouldn't grow there.
I saw a video (don't remember where) that broke down the travel route for Dany and Visarys and showed it not making sense in some way.
I think the tree being an ilusion is interesting, and there's a way that it could be revealed to her as that. Dany going to Bravos seems very unlikely, after all, so I don;t see a 'this is not what i remember' happening there. But if it the lemon tree wasn't a literal tree - but instead a painting that hung by her room, she could run into in another context and have an epiphany. It could be possessions sold off when they had to leave that place.
Interesting video. It reminded me of Sansa's false memory of The Hound kissing her. George Martin reportedly said that Sansa's false memory will be important later in the story. Could it be that this will somehow be used to show that Daenerys' memory isn't real either?
What I personally also see as a possibility is that the image of the red door with the lemon tree was a dragon dream.
We know that she is capable of having prophetic dreams, and both Bran and Jojen explain that their prophetic dreams somehow feel different, more real, than normal dreams. I suspect that Daenarys had this dream at a very young age so she couldn't tell the difference between the dream and the real world.
You might think I am crazy here. I think Dany was somewhere North for some of her early childhood. To me, it reads that she was near a glass garden of some type. It reminds me of Sansa's and Bran's descriptions of the one at Winterfell. No-I do not think she was AT Winterfell. BUT Ned DOES go STRAIGHT to Barrowton AFTER Starfall. Ned did NOT go to Barbrey's place to return her 'dead' husband horse but NOT his body. THAT is riduculous on SO many levels.Firstly being that he was Lord of the Barrows...IF Ned actually did THAT, Barbrey prolly would have killed him right there. To me, the trip to Starfall AND to Barrowton read like part of the same event-the same cover-up. Whatever started at ToJ...ends in Barrowton. Then Ned and Jon in Winterfell, waiting for Cat.
I personally really like the idea that she’s the descendent of targaryen bastards on dragon stone and viserys and Darry decides to claim she was a princess for political power. I like the idea that her journey starts out trying to get the throne back from a usurper, and in the end she’s a bastard usurping the true born Aegon
I still subscribe to the idea that Daenerys is not a Targaryen. And speaking of Drogo, I hope you consider covering Daenerys’s relationship with him.
Oof, Dany and Drogo is definitely a topic I'd cover but it is dark and I hate it.
Perhaps it's 'False Memory Syndrome' from trauma.
And you should have more followers.
What if the lemon tree is not a lemon tree? Wouldn’t it be reasonable for a long ago memory to be wrong? In fact, our author likes to play with ideas while describing events from POVs that have an altered state of mind, foggy memory, or visions that have been planted. Martin, likes to use symbolism and wordplay to tell stories. I’m suggesting that the lemon trees that Daenerys actually sees doesn’t exist. What if it, like the one from her memory, is symbolic of a more broad concept. And so what than would the lemon tree be? What could symbolize lemon tree? Why? Could it be the moon? Could it be the pale-yellow celestial object which symbolized the coming of dragons? And if the moon were symbolized by a lemon than what about the tree? Could the tree be symbolized by a cosmic world tree described in Old Norse Mythology, Yggdrasil? Much of the fan base agrees that Martin has drawn lots from Norse Mythology. In Norse Mythology we get celestial bodies hanging from the branches of Yggdrasil. Dany, laying at night in her bed, looking out a window with a nighttime sky just before her dream state. Or was it before her dream state? This certainly would foreshadow her story arc. In fact…the moon’s shape has been described as a lemon and an egg by today’s science.
In todays world we can explain the moons non-spherical dimension with science. We know that neither the Earth nor its moon are a perfect sphere. “It is known”, The Earth's slightly elliptical shape has been explained by its rotation and the gravitational pull of the moon. In conjunction, the moon’s, subtly misshapen, appearance was caused by tidal forces early in the moon's formational history. Today, the moon rotates too slow and is too far from Earth to have any influence over its shape. In fact, it was only during its formation, that while still very malleable; the closer, faster-spinning moon really took shape. The sculpting effects of distance and speed became frozen in time as the moon solidified and matured. These factors explain the Moon's lemon-like or egg-shape formation. This is explained in a paper published online in the journal Nature on July 30, 2014 by scientists. The point here is that science agrees that the moon is a lemon in the sky. This makes for great science-fiction.
If the moon is a lemon than what about the tree? The combination of fact and myth, science and fiction, is what Martin seems to be doing here. Yggdrasil or can we say Egg-drasil is a large cosmic ash tree from Norse mythology. From its’ branches hangs the nine worlds. Some scholars have proposed identifications for the nine. For example, Henry Adams Bellows (1923) says that the Nine Worlds consist of Ásgarðr, Vanaheimr, Álfheimr, Miðgarðr, Jötunheimr, Múspellsheimr, Svartálfaheimr, Niflheimr (sometimes Hel), and perhaps Niðavellir. Some editions of translations of the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda feature illustrations of what the author or artist suspects the Nine Worlds to be in part based on the Völuspá stanza. Do we think that the moon was one of the Nine Worlds? Scholars have left lots of room for authors, like Martin, to play with. Consider this, in classical antiquity, the seven moving astronomical objects in the sky visible to the naked eye are: the Moon, Mercury, Venus, the Sun, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. But that’s only seven, we are missing two. This could come from a common misunderstanding about the planet Venus and Mercury. At one time the planet Venus and Mercury were thought to be four planets. This came from the apparent change of direction of their orbits, called retrograde. Retrograde arises from the fact that we are observing rotating planets from a planet that is itself rotating about the Sun. Because of this planets are observed to have morning and evening star positions and rise and fall depending on the time of the year. Of the ones visible with the naked-eye Venus is most well known and the only one, who’s retrograde, that can be seen. In fact, many legends and myths identify the two aspects of Venus as two entities. From this, there’s only one more spot to fill out our cosmic trees, the second moon.
I think, indeed, that “the moon” (le moon) with its’ pale-yellow color is hanging from Egg-drasil’s branches. Or was, according to our in-book myth.
Textual evidence linking the egg, the moon, a lemon and dragons is here:
“He told me the moon was an egg, Khaleesi,” the Lysene girl said. “Once there were two moons in the sky, but one wandered too close to the sun and cracked from the heat. A thousand thousand dragons poured forth, and drank the fire of the sun. That is why dragons breathe flame. One day the other moon will kiss the sun too, and then it will crack and the dragons will return.” (AGOT)
And this,
“That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window.”(AGOT)
So, a childhood memory of a lemon in a tree seen above a windrasil. Hmmmmm.
Let’s understand that only a fraction of information is retained through the formation of a memory and that the emotional state of someone forming a memory has a large influence on how it is remembered. In short, the memory that Daenerys has may not actually be a lemon tree. But likely is the foreshadowing of her as the “Mother of Dragons”.
Looking at some interesting wordplay and symbolism…
In the story told by the Lysene girl, there was a moon close to the sun, the moon cracks, then baby dragons.
I have many child hood memories that are most likely created by parents repeatedly telling the stories, plus my imagination and maybe even a video recording. I have no possiblity to distinguish which memories or parts of them is not an endogenic memory.
Most Kindergarden memories i can determine as mine, since I'm the only one aware of them. But the accuracy of them is questionable, especially since everytime one remembers a memory it gets rewritten. Memories are not chiseled in stone.
Here's a disquieting thought, the most powerful woman in Planetos/Arda, Daenerys Targaryen is a psychologically damaged survivor of her family's slaughter as well as sexual abuse at the hands of Viserys and Khal Drogo, and possibly even Illyrio Mopastis.
I believe its an allegory for a dream of spring!
I have a rule: Never posit a complex in universe explanation when "The author screwed up" is a simpler explanation.
Lemongate 🍋
JESUS‼️ Now you've got me wondering if I'm chasing a lemon tree with trauma behind it!
Dany lived her childhood in the water gardens!
There has been a shared secret between the royal houses of Dorne and Targaryen since Aegon the conqueror. It most likely has to do with the prophecy of the endtimes. That is imo the only reason why Aegon 1 stopped fighting Dorne even though they killed his sister-wife. This generation long ‘bond’ may very well mean Daenerys spend time in Dorne as a little girl, hidden there. Maybe she was told she was somewhere else. Maybe she assumed she was somewhere else.
I feel like I need to reread the books again because I do not remember Drogo being an abuser. I remember being horrified with how the tv show portrayed their relationship because their first night was unquestionably rape and in the book, Drogo pauses to ask for her consent which she gives. Again, my memory is a little hazy on all of their interactions, but I always viewed their relationship as showing the irony that the first relationship Dany has which is loving and filled with mutual respect is with someone everyone else views as being a primative barbarian.
Well, I personally don't think an adult can have a loving and mutually respectful relationship with a 13 year old, but this passage is what I always go back to when I consider the "true love" of Dany and Drogo:
"Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.
Day followed day, and night followed night, until Dany knew she could not endure a moment longer. She would kill herself rather than go on, she decided one night …" - AGOT, Daenerys III
This seems to clearly indicate that Dany is being repeatedly raped by Drogo, and the situation is so bad that she literally wants to kill herself before one of her dragon dreams convinces her to keep going. I personally think that Dany seduces Drogo and then reframes their entire relationship afterwards because A. she has had such an abusive upbringing that she doesn't really understand love and B. because the reality of what a terrible person he was is too traumatic for her to handle. But regardless of my personal opinion on why or how she deals with the aftermath, I think she was pretty unequivocally and horribly abused by Drogo.
@@HillsAliveYT Your quote is on point here. She was raped, and traumatized, and sold into slavery by her only left family member. Her person of trust.
She had to reframe it to survive. I think Dany suffers from cPTSD in some form, it would explain some of her behaviours.
I think it _is_ real but she remembers it inaccurately
yeah-maybe she’s conflating two separate things from different places?
@@paigestubbs9718 exactly!
Perhaps the red door and lemon tree are from an earlier time. Weren't Dany, Viserys, and their mother on Dragonstone for a while? Perhaps these are the doors to the palace there, and as such her earliest memories, but she doesn't know the name of the place so confuses it with Braavos...the earliest place name she knows.
Rhaella died by giving birth to Dany, and the Targaryen loyalists took her and Viserys away shortly after her birth to escape from Stannis, also Dragonstone is a pretty cold place, so it is really unlikely to be true
lemon tree very pretty and the lemon flower is sweet but the fruit of the lemon is impossible to eat
If it was just a matter of George making a mistake he wouldn't have had characters mention the fact that lemon trees grow in Dorn and not bravos on no less than 3 occasions
So wait, what was it that you think happened in the house of the red door then?
Daenerys sees a red door and wants to paint it black.
red door = house targaryen
lemon tree = deception
+ dany's obsession with being a targaryen
All of Symbology points to dany not being a real targaryen
I like the way you think.
If the memory is false, it could mean she isn't actually who she's been told she is. Perhaps another Blackfire?
It's possible but I highly doubt it, the fact that Viserys and Ser Willem both believe she's a Targaryen is enough for me to discount the possibility that she's a fake.
@@HillsAliveYT viserys could also have been fed a line of bull.
@@shortbuspimp true but his mother died giving birth to her I don’t think he would keep her by his side if he thought she was not his sister
No way she wasn't in dorne. Doran hasn't told us everything
I think there is almost no chance Doran is a Targaryen supporter, but I'm also skeptical of this theory simply because he's super rich and has many connections in Essos so hiding the last two Targaryens in Dorne is a massive and completely unnecessary risk for him.
I think it's real but she will never get that feeling again
Broke: the lemon tree was put in to hint that Dany is not a real Targaryen
Woke: the lemon tree is a metaphor for deception/ the unreliability of memory
Bespoke: the lemon tree was put in because GRRM is a Sufjan Stevens fan
Are you serious an NUT'S Saying Daenerys isn't a Targaryan loo at everything about her Danny is absolutely a Targaryan 👑🐲🐲🐲🔥🏴
The amount of fan fussing over what has become known as the Page of Lies is incredible, and this is the first time I've even heard it suggested that it might have just been an author mistake. I find it much more plausible than the idea that Sir Willem Darry was a velociraptor.
WHY IS THIS STILL A DICUSSION WORTH HAVING?