Why Was Jon Snow And Daenerys Targaryen's Relationship So Weird?: A Game of Thrones 7x03 Analysis
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
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Many Game of Thrones fans had been looking forward to Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen meeting each other for the entire series, but the reality of that dream wound up being more than a little disappointing. Why did Jon and Dany have such a cringe-worthy relationship?
Contents of this video:
00:00 Jon And Daenerys Meet For The First Time
10:21 Jon's Conversation With Tyrion
13:11 Jon And Dany Go For Round Two
14:18 Conclusion 
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Thank you for sharing this amazing video! I agree with so much of what you say here. I would argue that, what many thought were parallels between Jon and Daenerys were actual signs of them being foils all along. People read them as parallels because they assumed that Daenerys and Jon were both the main heroes when it was actually setting them up to be opponents all along.
Thank you! And I totally agree, GRRM loves his foils more than seemingly anything on god's green earth so it shouldn't have been a huge surprise that two of the main characters who were portrayed as magical and heroic were meant to be foils to each other instead of parallels. It's actually fascinating how much the themes and motifs behind Jon and Dany are in constant contrast, and it's a shame the show didn't give that opposition time to breathe. I think it really could have worked well had they developed it more, but as it is their relationship development was so abrupt that it's like the show was trying to establish a love story and a rival story at the exact same time and it was very confusing. Obviously a lot of people love their dynamic, but it felt like the text and subtext was going in two completely different directions and it really weighed down their relationship, their characters individually, and the entire show in the end.
Atleast Dragons were known to be real literal skeletons and all that. White Walkers are literally Beings that when killed turn into snow and ice something straight out of a fairy tale
Ahhh. Installment #1836 in the "turns out being a traumatized socially isolated childbride of a dead warlord with sudden access to nukes doesnt actually give you great sociopolitocal skills" saga
Idk why equating dragons to nukes is so funny to me
Its kinda weird her lack of belive to the white walkers topic because she has a strong relation with magic and mistical powers
Yeah I agree that it is weird, but I think that her experience in Essos maybe gave her a misconception that she was the most magically powerful being in the world so it never occurred to her that there would be a potential mystical threat that could threaten even her.
she doesnt have a strong relation with magic, or common people...she has a strong desire to rule and all her titles show that especially Mhysa where she took a name like mother of us all....they did good with the contrast....she wanted all to obey since she was little like khalasari obeyed drogo(with fear) and jon wanted to follow his companions of the Night's Watch....he didnt want to be a commander of it nor did he want the north....their story is similar but goes in different way from the start....she is cold and vengeful but came from fire, he is warm and compassionate but raised in cold....from the first book they were different just in similar situation...he didnt feel like stark, he felt trapped and wanted to join benjamin, she didnt feel home at pentos and she had a stockholm syndrome with drogo....i think that is when she got twisted...when the only two persons she trusted sold her to a warrior pedophile that raped her....even in the show that scene showed she went from a crying girl to a strong cold monster....but he never no matter how difficult it got lost him self and Ygritte is what shows that...he was raised to think they are monsters but he saw that wasnt true...show did a lot of bad things bad this isnt one of them....
@@nenadvujakovic3335 Jon Snow was a rich kid of a rich family yes bastard but never had the problems and poverty of Daenerys. Jon had an strong envy of Rob. That thing of the reluctant leader is a great mistake in polítical thinking
@@Vecha302 few months? For children is an eternity, street Kids is something serious
@@Vecha302 by the way daenerys marries drogo in 298, and ser Wiliem Darry died in 289, and Daenerys only spend 1 year before the wedding in Pentos, so at least from 289 to 297 they were in their own
Aside from the crappy writing of their relationship (including the fact they never actually talk about anything important - not even her saying how incest isn't a big deal, given she's a Targ, and him saying the opposite) they just had zero chemistry. They both looked like they wanted to be sick throughout their so called 'romantic' scenes (and that's before the incest revelation...). Plus to be honest, there just seemed like there was no real meeting point between the two. We've seen Jon fall for an unpretentious, hands-on, outdoorsy woman - not someone with a long list of titles and a messiah complex. Likewise for her - she likes a bit of flamboyance, and he has none of that. It was very poorly handled all around.
Yeah agreed, honestly in retrospect I wonder if that was entirely intentional as well because pretty much from the point that they met the show did seem to highlight a lot of the diametric oppositions that exist between the characters.
@@HillsAliveYT Absolutely. Towards the end, I think a lot of things were just very poorly handled - it's not really even the plot itself, it's the handling of it. I could buy Jon as a guy dazzled by this outsider, and her as someone initially impressed he doesn't worship her - even throw in a bit of that Targaryen attraction - but there were so many opportunities to expand on things (in this case, their fundamental incompatibility). Both characters were ultimately done a great disservice. Jon being a nice, brave guy who ultimately isn't really cut out to be King, and her being well-intentioned but too maniacal and unhinged to be Queen material - that I can buy, too. Not so much her committing genocide because her nephew doesn't want to sleep with her, or him trying to excuse her act of genocide. Neither of those actions were in-character at all. I've never been a big Dany fan, but it really annoyed me to see them do that to a character who went through as much as she did - she's always been brutal and I suspected for quite a long time she might become a villain - but I don't think being turned down for sex would have been the final straw, though that really is the way they present it in the show. Just bizarre writing, and such a shame after almost a decade of absolute brilliance from GoT.
@@naonoodle2847 Yeah, it was all a wreck and it felt like the show wanted to have its cake and eat it too. They knew Dany was going to be the final villain, but they wanted it to be a shock and they wanted to keep her fans hanging on until the very end so they tried to hide it in very weird ways.
Personally I don't think that Jon turning her down was meant to be her turning point, I think that something the show sort of tried but utterly failed to convey was that essentially, Dany is someone who makes "enemies" easily and she deals with her enemies quite brutally. Simply put, she burned King's Landing because they called Cersei their queen and begged for Cersei to save them from Dany's forces, and historically Dany has quite consistently demolished anyone who has given her a shred of indication that they won't follow her.
In comparison to the books, the show built Dany up to be far more of a hero, and when the time came to deconstruct that heroic veneer they just didn't have it in them. Ironically, because they didn't want the fans to turn on them they made her finally make good on her constant threats of mass genocide, but they made Jon feel torn about it which is so wildly out of character it's insane. But Jon is one of the most heroic characters in the story, so making him indecisive about whether or not Dany is a bad guy gave the audience an easy out. And hilariously, that strategy completely backfired and probably made the audience even more pissed than they would have been had they just made it clear that Dany was a full out villain by that point. But I'm quite sure that George RR Martin wants Dany's journey to villainhood to be a story, and GoT flopped because they tried to make it a climactic plot twist Red Wedding-style.
@@HillsAliveYT You're right - the show weirdly tried to erase all shades of grey (and concerns for her sanity) which are present in the books throughout - her visions, her threats, her own worries that she might be like her father - and instead framed her as a heroine, even while showing some of the bad things she did. They didn't really cover her pattern of going from place to place, dismantling the existing order and then leaving because she couldn't rule, or at least they didn't cover it very well. Which meant about 95% of the audience seemingly thought she was a saviour...there was limited conflict. They first tried to show the conflict by having her burn Lannisters alive in S7, but even then it was glossed over far too much. I'm sure Dany is going to be the final bad guy of the story in the books, too - and in some ways, a lot of these problems could have probably been dealt with had George finished writing them, as D&D were actually pretty good at adapting the source material, but simply aren't nuanced enough writers to weave together all the narrative ties on their own.
@Rheya Ruiz I couldn't give a toss about the relationships of the actors. We're talking about the characters they play. I don't 'ship' random actors - I have a life. The actors in their roles - Kit as Jon, Emilia as Dany - have zero chemistry on-screen. Maybe the fact they're friends and didn't want to intrude on Kit's off-screen relationship played a role there, I have no idea. I don't know them. What I do know is that whatever their relationship off-screen, on screen it just didn't work.
Dany also partially repeating her father's actions:
A Stark came to make a case to the Monarch... and was imprisoned instead.
first of all… it’s weird bc it was incest. i don’t understand fans who were expecting a disney fairytale ending where “ice and fire” would end up together and daenerys would magically pop out inbred targ babies so they could restore house targaryen. they clearly weren’t paying attention to the point george rr martin was making. the narrative actively punished ppl who engaged in incest relations, hells jaime and cersei’s whole mess caused the war of the five kings and we all know there were no winners in that mess, so why fans expect jon and dany’s incestous relationship to have a happy ending i shall never understand. also i don’t think “a song of ice and fire” referred to this epic romance between jon and dany like many fans thought but rather to the threat of apocalyptic events caused by ice i.e. the white walkers and fire i.e. another pyromaniac targaryen with access to living nukes/dragons. like come on, daenerys was always too happy to unleash her “children” on people who oppose her, she doesn’t know diplomacy and she sees herself as a dragon and this messiah figure, dragons don’t plant trees and for someone who buys into her own hype as the mother of dragons/the unburnt/a million other titles that she liked to use, it was a recipe for disaster. the books made it very obvious that she was going down the dark path, i blamed D&D for playing favourites and not making it obvious that many of her “heroic moments” were questionable and dubious.
I couldn't agree more! I was always baffled by the notion that GRRM, who doesn't seem particularly interested in writing love stories in general, was going to make his epic endgame romance an incestuous affair when incest is portrayed as something so consistently awful.
I didn't understand the Targaryen restoration narrative either, I don't know why so many people thought that they would be "reclaiming their right" to the throne would be a good thing, nor did I comprehend the idea that a Targaryen union would magically save the world when canonically the Targaryens really haven't ever made anything better.
I also definitely thought a song of ice and fire referred to the dual threats that could potentially end humanity, and I do sometimes wonder how anyone could ever come to the conclusion that GRRM was referring to some magical perfect union of two ideal rulers who would finally turn Westeros into a perfect utopia after so many bad kings and queens. The point of the narrative very obviously is not "if we just had the perfect person on the throne everything would be fine," and it's very VERY obviously not "if only the king or queen had nuclear weapons to keep everyone in line then everything would be fine". In some ways I sort of get why fans of Dany as a hero were disappointed but in other ways, I just don't understand at all, that idea is just so diametrically opposed to the entire point of the story and honestly the more that I look back at GoT the more heavy-handed and obvious I think the show indicated that she was a villain all along.
@@HillsAliveYT the thing that pissed me off about the show’s ending is how they framed daenerys’ death as a tragedy and implied that she really had good intentions at heart she was driven mad with grief and burned down a city… like how are you gonna justify a mass murderer?! it’s so ridiculous how even at the end there were still ppl supporting her like yara/asha greyjoy and the unsullied demanding that jon be brought to justice?? when he did the right thing stopping her from massacring more people?!! i get that he’ll be ostracised bc he’s technically a kinslayer (though i doubt it would be jon snow who kill her in the books, arya seems more likely to be the one to do it) but come on, they were trying so hard to get the viewer to feel sorry for daenerys, i was cheering when he stabbed her tbh i don’t feel sorry for her at alll lmfaoo!
@@mn780 Yeah they completely bungled that, they went so all-in on hiding that Daenerys had villainous tendencies and made the fandom see her as hot dragon Jesus that they essentially wrote themselves into a corner where the audience was going to turn on them no matter what. They tried to soften the blow by implying that she was a great person who just lost it even though it made no sense, and it didn't avoid the wrath of fans who were convinced that she was going to save the world anyway. What's done is done, but at this point I'm honestly more frustrated about how they messed with every character that interacted with Dany specifically to hide this one twist that most attentive book readers and viewers knew was coming.
@@HillsAliveYT i totally agree, they really ruined it and it’s such a shame.
I was and still am grossed out by the boat sex scene, and I can't fathom how people were so excited to "finally" watch it especially the way they embedded Bran's revelation that they were related. (Cersei and Jaime together grossed me out too, by the way). From what we saw in the following episodes, Jon was a bit grossed out too, to the point he refused to kiss his aunt after he had learned the truth about his parents. He would have never married her, since he wasn't raised to expect to wed his relative like a Targareyen, he was raised as a Stark.
I also don't get the happy ending they expected to see, with Jon and Daenerys married and reigning together over all of the Seven Kingdoms, three dragons alive and well, raimbows and unicorns and everyone living happily ever after except for the baddies. Good ol' Ramsay said "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" and he was right.
I remember first watching this episode and being so confused as to why Dany was acting so aggressive towards Jon. In her past encounters with nobility, Dany had the capability to be charming and thoughtful with her words/actions. But here, with the first Northerner she's met since arriving to Westeros, she seemingly says all the wrong things and ends up giving herself the disadvantage. It was honestly reminiscent to Viserys to me, oddly enough, and it just didn't fit with the Dany we saw in the season before. And then she just.... stayed that way for the rest of the show...? It's so bizarre.
They just did 360s on the characters out of nowhere. They did this the Jon, Arya, Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger etc.
I never liked Daenerys but I remember watching & saying that they literally changed her into a different character from the end of season 6 to the start of season 7. Like that’s just literally NOT the same girl. I was so confused
They are both beautiful people but yep zero chemistry in screen which you can't force
Exactly, it's unfortunate because they're freaking stunning to look at but at no point could I believe that they actually wanted to smash each other.
One thing is if Jon didn’t have all those scenes with Sansa, then this probably would’ve worked. Kit and Emilia didn’t have nearly the chemistry that Kit and Sophie do.
In all honesty, the only reason the show manufactured this, ugh, "romance" is because Clarke and Harrington are hot so of COURSE it makes sense they screw, according to Weiss and Benioff.
No GRRM said Jon and Dany was endgame, altho the hotness of the actors certainly played a role 😂
The thing that always bugged me about that first meeting was that Daenerys treated Jon as if he was a slaver. That's the way she has been subjugating her enemies, by showing her superiority. She arrived at Westeros seeing everyone as an enemy and raving about her birthright and her faith on herself....but that's not really how she wins people over to be her allies.
Even after that meeting, Missande says that none of them follow Daenerys because of some birthright to a Kingdom they didn't even been to before. They choose to follow her, not because of threats, not because of might, but because of her kinder side.
So, how come the first time Dany is trying to make a Westerosy ally she treats him as if he was one of the slavers she met on Essos?
In retrospect, it all just seems like they wanted to make the point that Jon was the actual good guy, he was the reasonable one, while Dany was always the power-hungry monster with a savior's complex. Which is not really how she was portrayed before. She was always ruthless, but she wasn't a dick nor was she merciless.
It's so odd. They made the point that Jon earned loyalties while disregarding that so did Dany, and instead they made her act as if she was entitled to loyalty because she is Daenerys Motherfucking Targaryen. Which is not how she got loyalty before.
This IMO was the natural and unavoidable result, Dany treats Jon like a slaver because she's been morally lucky and because there isn't as much difference between most slavery and the Feudal system for Serfs. Her hard ball negotiating and eagerly deployed attrocities, look okay because ostensibly they are against slavers (except for when they are actually against anti-slavery reformers in the noble caste, or just the several times the victims straight up are slaves who she punishes for resisting slavery).
So of course Dany was ALWAYS going to treat enemy rulers in Westeros the same as she did the Slave Masters in Slavers Bay.
@@j.a.6310ah hah though…Westeros is not a slaver society though. All she had to do was look at the lord of the friendzone Jorah as to how Westeros treats people who engage in the slave trade. People love to bring up the fact that Dany freed slaves but in Westeros that isn’t a selling point. So now what else does she have? She rides on dragons but remember the people rose up and killed the dragons. So Dany has no good reason why she should rule the seven kingdoms when the seven kingdoms work hard for 3 centuries to depose the Targaryens.
I think the point is that this thing she has of imposing the death penalty without a jury of peers is all great when the people shes doing this to are people that the audience can SEE are bad people who we are not attached to. But what happens when she sets her sights on people that we know are more complicated than just "good" or "evil"? Dickon Tarly wasn't a bad guy, and as terrible as he was Randyll was not killed for being an abusive father to Sam. they were killed for not bending the knee to her. As far as shes concerned that's worthy of death. As far as she knows, Jon is the son of Ned Stark, The Usurper's dog who died still being loyal to the Usurper and wanted to put the Usurpers brother, Stannis, on the throne. Jon is currently walking around calling himself King in the North which is part of HER kingdom, her father's kingdom. Ned is, to her an unrepentant enemy of House Targaryen and Jon is a traitor to the Targaryen crown like the rest of them. Even knowing what she knows about Aerys she looks at Jaime Lannister with pure ire as if she wouldnt have done the same thing. you cant just be deprogrammed overnight when you've been hearing the same lies from Viserys since she was born. lets remember that Daenerys did not watch game of thrones, she only watched the scenes with her in it.
haven't watched the vid yet, I wanna give my opinion first. Imo their relationship was so weird because it was super forced and they showed close to no chemistry. Seemed like they only got together cause they were the main characters and the showrunners wanted to tie in their Targaryen blood. The showrunners were DYING to add another incestuous relationship to the show. Also seemed like a cheap way to get the North on Dany's side since all that mattered to Jon was "muh queen". It's annoying because Jon seemed to not even care about the white walkers anymore. Felt like he was only fighting because it was for Dany, meanwhile he spent 6 seasons building up to the "war" if you wanna call it that.
Side note but where the hell was Ghost?? In my head before the last few seasons came out, I always imagined Ghost being brought with Jon to meet Dany
The show kinda forgot about him in season 7&8
There was a deleted scene where Jon tells Ghost to stay with Sansa and protect her meaning he stayed in Winterfell
It felt like Daenerys never wanted to lead or rule when she got to Westeros, she just wanted to continue to conquer.
She ran away from the problems that her ruling in Essos brought about and is completely lacking in introspection about it.
The problem was the show never directly posed the question why she wants to rule Westeros to her face. If they did it may have clued the audience into the fact she was never some Messiah.
When Dany says that "we all enjoy what we are good at" I always thought it was a throwback line from when Ser Barristan told Dany that Raeghar never enjoyed killing after Dany says that she only knew he was good at killing.
Love your videos btw 😍
You might have missed the most obvious textual clue: the saga's title. Martin has stated that Frost's "Fire and Ice" poem inspired the title. Notably, both fire and ice are world-ending in that little poem. I'm sure there's a poem out there somewhere condemning ice and celebrating fire's warmth, but that's not what Martin mentioned as inspiration. Also, he seems reluctant to valorize extremes of any characteristic.
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
I also think it's interesting that _Jon_ has suffered in very similar ways to Dany.
He has been "chained" (by his NW vows), "betrayed" (obviously by his NW men), "raped" (not exactly, though he _was_ sexually pestered by Ygritte until falling for her, and somewhat by Melisandre also), "defiled" (he felt as though "turning cloak" against the Watch for the wildlings _was_ a defilement of his vows, and I would also say being murdered is quite defiling, too), and "so many men have tried to kill" Jon (and succeeded in one instance), that he can't "remember all their names".
I understand why Jon didn't retort to Dany's speech with this list of his _own_ tragedies, though it would have been interesting for this to have been brought up at some stage, because it's true.
Love your videos 🌸
Thanks! And I think you're totes right, I think Jon and Dany are two sides of the same coin in a lot of ways.
Yeah, Dany went through a lot but Jon certainly didn't have life so easy either
They have totally different personalities. Jon isn't one to blow his own horn.
People speculated that Tomen Stark bent the knee because he feared the Northern threat and needed the Targaryen alliance. Aegon perhaps told him about his dreams of the future doom from the North of Wall he came to stop. This means, once the Targaryens stopped focusing on that Northern threat and instead started killing Starks... that secret alliance was now undone and House Stark had no need to bend the Knee.
And once Dany defeated the Whitewalkers? The purpose of that alliance was over and Sansa had every right to resurrect the North Kingdom.
❄️+🔥= mud in the show.
Not the actors' faults, though it is what it is.
Yeah, romantic chemistry is one of those things that just can't be faked, and regardless of Kit or Emilia's acting abilities they just did not have that lovey dovey vibe about them at all. The writing wasn't there anyway, but they couldn't do anything to help it look better either.
Lol
This was a well done breakdown 👏
The hypocrisy was strong in Dany
I always wonder how Daenerys plan her future as ruler of Westeros looking in at the show it would go down to shit let’s be honest she doesn’t have heir can’t produce any children didn’t help she was raised in a foreign land and wasn’t educated to be a ruler at least for Westeros. Plus the whole “Birthright” and “Destiny” felt like bullshit talking considering it was not Daenerys own goal from the beginning to reclaim the iron throne it was her brother dream not hers also she didn’t have the foresight into thinking what’s the point of ruling a kingdom if the realm turn against you Robert rebellion proves Targaryens rule is not absolute and it pointless to rule Westeros if it can happen again.
about the second part of what you wrote, i think it's because of the dragons, they haven't exist for hundreds of years and she brought them life, a miracle, and Targaryens are people who really believe and do as much as they can for profecies and destiny, and in their story dragons are in westeros, Argon ruled westeros because of the dragons, so maybe she thought she should do that as well, and by the end of season 1 she didn't really had anything else to live for
She doesn't know shit about Westeros, that's one of the big problems. Reminds me of that little scene with Daario early on where he gives her flowers and explains what they are used for, telling her that if she wants to rule a land she needs to get to know it. She kinda just brushes him off and doesn't learn anything from it. When Jon comes to her and tells her that they need each other's help she's offended, even though there's a million things going on in Westeros that she has no idea about and could very well use all the help she can get to rule Westeros effectively, not just conquer it.
It’s 100% bad writing. They could t write J or D alone. Put them together and you’ll need top tier fascinating characterful dialogue and interactions. Even Martin will struggle i think. Dnd didn’t stand a chance
I didn't pick up on how insulting it must have been to Jin when Danaerys said that the last king in the north was Thorren (not spelled correctly.) I just realised this after you mentioned it, this should have raised the question about what is willing and capable of doing to get the Iron Throne. Her turn is not sudden nor fast, ut began when she murdered Mary, like you have pointed out.
It's funny going back to watch this scene and seeing once again how awkward and stilted everything is. More than anything else, this confrontation between them is confusing, and boring. They're talking past each other. Maybe that was deliberate on the part of the writers, but I don't think so, since basically every conversation from season 6 onward is exactly the same. One character says something, then the other responds with something completely unrelated. No information is exchanged, no one convinces anyone of anything. There's all the trappings of drama with none of the substance.
The new info from HoT D implies that Aegon had a dream about the Long Night and he might have revealed this information to Torrhen Stark and thus not subjected him at the threat of violence but come to an agreement that the North should join so Aegon could unite Westeros and prepare for the coming war.
It was shoe-horned into a story line where it had no place, the producers were just 'shipping' them because they decided it's what audiences wanted, that's why there's the callbacks to his time with Ygritte. I think they also needed a cheap, easy story line that would fill the void of all the major plot-arcs they abandoned mid stream.
She was talking to the lords of Westeros in the same manner she learned how to talk to slavers, operating like a conqueror and not a ruler as always. She never learned politics, just liberating people and ruling badly over them. And in Westeros people weren't really dying for a savior
Exactly.
honestly to me Dany's rant about how she believes in nothing but her self and her destiny to be Queen and awesome etc. came across a lot like Dany's book inner dialogue
I was 16 when season 7 came out, even then Daeny and Jon linking up felt like a reach when I watched it, so I re-watched GOT about 3 more times before s8 came out and watched it 2 more times with s8 included and it still felt off. In fact everything from season 6 started looking off from that point. Set ups made in previous seasons weren't paid off, there were minor and noticeable blemishes in the story line that the writers would've taken the time to cover in previous seasons but didn't from then, I remember thinking how nonchalant these new writers were, turned out the writers hadn't changed, silly me. Then I blamed the directors since they swap out regularly. It just wasn't the same.
My biggest dilemma with Jon and Daenerys is how will Martin fit their relationship into the last two books when there's so much more left to to accomplish. Book Jon has just been assassined and Book Dany has been captured by Dothraki. And if we are going off what show showed us, there a ton more to do before Jon and Daenerys even meet.
Keep up the good work, you have a real talent for this.
Thank you so much, that's so nice to hear!
I never believed he loved her. He did what he had to do to save everyone. In the end he realized he made a huge mistake and feared her just as much as the NK. And only after killing Varys did he tell her he loved her while looking at his feet (hint hint). He did his duty in the end, as King, by bringing justice to the people of KL and the world by executing a Tyrant just as dangerous as the NK. If only he had done it sooner.
You can drag pol!Jon from my cold, dead fingers. It's the only thing that can possibly excuse what a complete moron the character became.
Underrated channel!
Muh Queen
I think that harshness was because he wasn't just a lord in the north, he was king. Here is someone, who in her mind owes her fealty, not just refusing to accept her as queen, but taking the entirety of the north with him.
Yeah, she wants all 7 kingdoms.
I’m not sure that you could say that the realm became more chaotic after the Targ unification. Through Fire and Blood and the Worldbook we learn that there was a LOT of fighting between the different kingdoms that was mediated by them being united by the targs. The Reach and the Westerlands were always fighting. What is now called the Riverlands was always in flux, it was ruled by the iron islands at the time of the conquest. And raiding from the Ironborne was so bad that fish was considered a luxury. Not that everything’s been totally peaceful, but the idea that the Targs brought nothing but Fire and Blood to Westeros isn’t really borne in the text.
Love your videos btw
Thanks! And yeah, I think that the long and short of it for me is truly the dragons. Like yes, there was chaos and conflict in Westeros before, but once you introduce the kind of power dragons bring it's just impossible for it to be considered the same level of chaos. But I agree that they didn't invent the concept of chaos in Westeros, they just took it metaphorically nuclear.
The Dance of dragons proves that the Targaryens are great conquers but terrible rulers there were some good kings but theirs heirs are either killed,terrible or not meant to be kings probably both in history.
A lot of the differences were exaggerated by the show. One thing that sticks out was the "trappings of power" that Melisandre had to convince Jon to surround himself with. Daenerys went through a similar situation with Barriston Selmy and both were rather smug afterwards as they toured their respective domains, the Wall and getting a live fish pedi while looking down at Mereen from the pyramid. I think the show producers kind of forgot that Jon and Daenerys are only around 15 years old at that point and hold an incredible amount of power for children of that age. And oh yeah, they're both descended from a sadistic pyromaniac. Daenerys wasn't the only one who burned things with fire in the beginning.
I don't know, but, it felt like Daenerys showed more emotion towards him. Jon was so wooden I swear I believed we would find out he was playing her in season eight.
I kept waiting to find out that he had some grand plan to use her and he would finally reveal his plans to Sansa and Arya and it would all make sense… but no.
He was used her don't you know that how you watch the show how you saw the signs it was there the whole time he don't even love her that's not even love he just wasn't into her.
I think most of the problems is due to Tyrion, it was atleast to my mind his idea to push so hard for knee bending before the meeting even took place.
Should have had Dani deny fighting the white walkers. Have her attack kings landing then while that fight is happening the white walkers make their way to kings landing forcing her to "burn it all" something like that. Then Dani and Jon rule as one. The end.
How much better it would be for their romantic chemistry if their first meeting went like "Hey, I am so sorry my father burned your grandpa and uncle, but I am not like him. Would you like to be friends? I would like to have North in my Seven kingdoms, but I dont expect you to trust me right away after what happened between our families and everything your people suffered to gain independence. Maybe just agree to be allies and in time we can talk about uniting our kingdoms trough marriage?"
instead of "bend the knee, now. You dont trust me that I wont burn you people like my father did? I dont give a fuck, you ancestor swore to my ancestor centuries ago."
Jon/Dany have 0% chemistry
Jon/Sansa is life
This channel is really anti-Targaryen and I love it!
Thats racist
Exactly a biased heaux and you love it
Just to start, probably yhe incest was the number one reason why it was wierd.
She was he's aunt, right?
Daemon and Rhaenyra
You are making the show better with those videos xd D&D better bend the knee!
They were related…. That’s why it was weird.
Idk how Daenerys is a “hero” bc she literally isn’t especially after s8
If you believe in the "opposites attract" theory then their relationship isn't really all that weird.
That something only children believe
In books they are 6 main characters Bran,Sansa ,Arya ,Jon,Tyrion and Daenerys ,this is 4 Starks one Lannister and one Targaryen ,to be true Jon is half Stark half Targaryen but we all know he is far more Stark than Targ why because Eddard Stark ,Jon want to be Stark more than anithing ,i think Bran is main character of all 6 but peoples think always Jon or Dany
Yes they are like ice and fire....and it was about them all along.....shame that it hot so messed up at the end....
Dany would only be in a position to act the way she did if she had already conquered the south.
In the end we got a Dance of Dragons 2.0. When Jon killed her, it was the final Targaryen civil war. Result: Destruction of the last gasp of the Targaryen Dynasty.
But was this nessecery? Dany was infertile and the Targaryen Dynasty would have likely died out once her rein ended.
The
Targaryen rule of wsteros was far more peaceful than ere before their rule
This is not my Daenerys. Nothing in her character arc points to any behavior like this.
This is more in character for Cersei rather than Dany.
Its something a desperate pretender to the throne might do, not someone who is so invested in her people, she's out feeding plague victims and refugees of war or putting her conquest on hold to face the true danger to Westeros...
This is the biggest tragedy of mischaracterization in the whole series. #NotMyQueen
Ehhhh, gotta disagree that it's out of character for Dany. She can be exceptionally brutal towards anyone she thinks even MIGHT be against her, and she's not particularly invested in "her people" unless they are 100% invested in her. I think GoT's big mistake when it comes to Dany is portraying her as a straightforward hero up until this point when the books portray her much less altruistically.
At what point did Dany imprison any one of the people who were clearly against her when they came to entreat with her? Did she let the Shavepate commit extra-judicial killings or torture her cup-bearers to squeeze the Sons of the Harpy?
Or should I confine myself to interpreting only show Dany? The adapters got all this other stuff wrong but got Dany right? C'mon...
@@Professor_GonZo Well, I think when she ordered the Unsullied to kill anyone over the age of 12 who was a part of the slaver class, that was an obvious sign that she was dangerous and that she wasn't operating entirely altruistically, I also feel like that was one of many very direct signals that Dany was headed down a dark path that GRRM put into the books because it's pretty much impossible for any rational person in the real world to say that children deserve to be brutally murdered because they were born to the wrong parents.
I knew Astapor was coming...
Class indoctrination in Astapor starts with the children. It strikes me as a true caste system. Children are much easier trained than adults. Leaving older children, soon to be adults, just leaves an entire generation of slavers on the cusp of adulthood, ready to carry on the family tradition. Was this distasteful, yes. Indicative of darkness? No. She made a hard choice to destroy the entire Astapori system of slavery for the good of the people of Astapor. tbc
@@Professor_GonZo LOL well if you're hoping for any videos lauding Dany as a misunderstood hero from me you're going to be disappointed, but if your argument that she had to murder children because it's too late to teach them how to exist in a different world, we're going to have to agree to disagree.
It wasn’t the actors I’ll tell you that
Wel they where aunt and nephew.
And they have none chemistry
It's cuz she's a girl playing at being a queen
Hey Jon is a boy playing at king what up?
Their relationship could have been so good if done properly… They had so much potential but it was so rushed,
Lets just see what GRRM does with them.
Well this is just my reading of the books, but I don't think George intends to have them be in a legitimate relationship at all.
@@HillsAliveYT he did say in an interview, when season 1 was released, that everything will comeback to Jon and Daenerys together.
@@apex_1515 Did he specify romantically? Because the fact that they are core elements of the storyline doesn't necessitate them falling in love with each other.
@@HillsAliveYT well he didn’t say specifically state they will fall in love but the statement in itself wasn’t that ambiguous
“Well, everything comes back to the two of them getting together”
@@HillsAliveYT also the prophecy Dany hears at the House of the Undying
I think the main reason she was so harsh right in the beginning is because he was one of the first lords of Westeros that she had to deal with
Bad writing that’s all
What went wrong?!? How about Jon Snow isn't a fucking Targaryn!!!!!!
Yes he is.
What went wrong? Jon stabbed her! I think that would throw a wrench into anyone's relationship.
What your referring to is from the show not the book's as this hasn't happened yet an it won't be like this at all Jon an Daenerys will work together to destroy the others he will need her dragons an she will leave the Iron Throne to go north beyond the wall to help an may even sacrifice herself to save Westeros
This may be true, but, I definitely see Dany falling from grace, not because of Jon, but because of fAegon Targaryen.I truly believe he is going to be the obstacle in her way, not Cersei.
Yes, because happy endings and noble heroes and fated romance is exactly how GRRM rolls.
Daenerys is a psychopath. If you're hoping for her to have a noble sacrifice sort of ending...you'll have to write it yourself.
@@janellejulianajoy yes I'd say faegon will be in Kingslanding but pots of wildlife will be set off by accident an this will be devastating for Danny to see but we know Cersie has plenty of wildlife pots set up in Kingslanding an Danny will still go north to help Jon
Keep telling yourself that but the harsh truth is nothing lasts
My main issue is both are terrible at acting. And also the writing is shit by this point.
I hate season 7 and 8 my jon Snow he will have made a great king in the show but maybe in the books will become a 👑 who knows. 🥺
I disagree fundamentally with everything you just said.
Daenerys was shown to like someone on the edger side, the literally bad boy who didn’t play by the rules… Jon although he was relatively good and honorable wasn’t afraid to disagree with her… and Jon likes the idea of fucking the enemy… seriously though he likes the idea of broken birds he wanted to civilize Ygritte and thought that Daenerys wasn’t her father… the dragons and power that she openly displays also probably tickled his hidden ego… it was only when Jon found out that he was a targ did the relationship fall apart and not just because they were related but because Jon was afraid to betray Daenerys, his family and ended in him forcing to betray Daenerys…and his stark family