Bible Scholar Rethinks Mormonism - David Bokovoy Pt 1 | Ep. 1875 (Remastered Classic)
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- Опубликовано: 5 июн 2024
- Note: This interview is a remastered version of episodes 1013-1016 with David Bokovoy done in 2018.
In these highly-anticipated episodes of Mormon Stories Podcast, we interview David Bokovoy - one of Mormonism's leading Bible scholars. David has an MA from Brandeis University in Jewish Studies and a Ph.D. in Hebrew Bible and the Ancient Near East. He worked for the LDS Church Education System for 18 years, was chaplain at Harvard University, and taught LDS Institute at Harvard, Wellesley, and MIT. He is the author of 2 books including Authoring the Old Testament: Genesis-Deuteronomy, dozens of articles, and was a co-founder of the Mormon Interpreter with Daniel C. Peterson.
This interview focuses on David's personal faith journey, including his fascinating story of falling in love with the Hebrew language and deeply studying the Bible-to forgoing a possibly more lucrative academic career to move to Utah to teach in the Church Educational System.
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David Bokovoy Remaster Playlist: • David Bokovoy REMASTER...
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction to the Remastered Version
00:05:05 John introduces David Bokovoy’s original story
00:09:17 David Bokovoy’s early years in California
00:15:11 Mormonism in High School
00:19:04 He watched a student almost take his life
00:24:00 Starting to date a Mormon girl
00:30:31 Mission experience
00:34:00 He learned to love studying
00:42:35 Who were his mentors?
00:45:20 David Wright
00:51:05 Applying to Brandeis University
00:57:22 The Bible was a privileged text
01:01:35 Problems with the Book of Moses, Abraham, Book of Mormon, etc.
01:06:41 He wanted to go into the Church Education System
01:08:27 He taught seminary for four years
01:22:06 How did he get involved in apologetics?
01:25:25 How was his testimony during this time?
01:27:25 Duetero Isaiah
01:31:50 Anachronisms in the Book of Mormon
01:38:32 Prop 8 was a big deal for him
01:52:50 Brian Hauglid
01:56:00 Being questioned concerning his beliefs and apologetics
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This man taught me in seminary and is one of my heroes. Back then he was my hero for being one of the kindest and most genuine teachers I've ever had, and for explaining the gospel to me in a scholarly way. I've even been to the man's house to see his crazy Halloween decorations.
Now he's my hero for standing up for himself and his family and leaving the church while still having friends he loves that choose to stay and being respectful of them.
David, if you're reading this, know that you've made a massive impact on one of your former Jordan High students, and I admire you a great deal. Thank you for everything you've taught me❤
I also had him as a seminary teacher albeit at Alta instead of Jordan. He is an incredible teacher and I adored him, despite having major hang-ups about seminary in general.
If he does see this, I hope he knows that at least two of his high school students remember him with major fond memories and admire him for who he is and everything he has done.
David Bokovoy was my seminary teacher at Alta High School. I do believe I had him his first semester of teaching there. It always cracked me up that he had all of his classes take a church knowledge test to see where we lined up so he could adjust his teaching accordingly. He let us know that when he got the results, we scored the lowest he'd ever seen 😅
As someone who loathed seminary with a passion, David actually made me want to come to class. His knowledge of the scriptures were beyond imagination and I would always go home to tell my mom that he should be teaching adults, not dumb high schoolers. I talked about him for years after. I learned to love the Old Testament through him. And the only Institute class I took in college was an Old Testament class because of him (the Institute teacher was sadly not as knowledgeable).
I am so proud of where he is now and what he has accomplished. I am incredibly proud that he made the decision to step away from the church when it no longer aligned with his personal values. I am so grateful that I got to know him and despite myself no longer believing, I would absolutely sit down and take lectures from him all over again if I could.
I so respect this man, he has an actual ethical approach to religion, a religion of love and service.
Me too✝️🙏❤️
When I was an undergraduate at Harvard, David was first my institute teacher then my boss when I became the administrator at the institute. He has always been kind and open and honest about his faith and his doubts, and was among the best bosses I have ever had. So glad others get this introduction to him.
Love this man….Jesus is all over his face … true man of God✝️🙏😇❤️
I have to thank you John, for your Intelligent, dynamic, well researched episodes of Mormon Stories. I found you when I was mightily struggling with my decision to leave the Church. You, your guests, and the dedication to provide a diversity of people going through the same process has allowed me to let go with grace. You are an incredible resource to the entire Mormon and non-Mormon community and I am full of gratitude for having been able to deconstruct my faith with your help. Many thanks and blessings to you and your family for your future and all who you will continue to touch. 💕🪷💕
🙏❤️
Interesting that he mentioned the anachronism of steel. On a family trip when I was probably in 8th or 9th grade, we visited Temple Square, and a missionary in the visitor center gave me a Book of Mormon. I asked my parents if it was OK, and they said yes, so I started reading it. At the time my family was pretty fundamentalist Christian - biblical inerrancy and all that. When I got to the mention of a steel sword in the time of Abraham, I stopped reading, making up my mind that the book was not what it was claimed to be. I remembered thinking about the possibility of a translation error, but decided that could not be an excuse if the translation was supposedly done supernaturally. So I found this discussion interesting in the way it brought back those memories from the late 60s, and seeing where the LDS church took these issues later.
I was particularly impressed with this scholar's graciousness to everyone he mentioned, even those who wronged him. I want to be like that guy when I grow up.
I have been enjoying this interview from eight years ago immensely. However, no matter how intelligent Dr Bokovoy is, he is especially skilled at sitting on the fence. I would love to hear an interview 6 years later.
I love Mormon Stories it is very in depth and I didn't mind listening to the stories when I wasn't as busy. I didn't have that Community that I had growing up. I was raised Baptist, which to me now was a lot like LDS. No drinking, smoking, guys with short hair, I went to the School that was in my Church, so we wore long dresses.
I realize that there are differences also, but it definitely was restrictive and didn't want us to think for ourselves.
I have a niece that joined the Mormon Church as a teen. She met a great guy and he joined the Church and went on a Mission. While he was gone she got lonely and met her husband of 20+ years.
I felt bad for him and now my niece seems to be getting back into Mormonism ever since last year when her Mother passed. My Niece went to BYU went on a date with Jay Osmond. Her husband never accepted the LDS and they have raised their kids Christian. I am sorry this is so long but I feel like I need to have a long talk with her and tell her some of the things I have learned. I don't know if this is a good idea but maybe I should at least try.!?!
Gently, gently. The advice that goes through all of the ex-Mo channels is to be gentle, and to first make sure they know you love them no matter what and are always there for them.
The contrast between real love and cult control will hopefully become clear to her!
@@justkiddin84 yes your right!
John’s intro is giving me anticipation for this coming year. Sounds like there will be a lot of great meaningful stories.
David Bokovoy blew my mind. I was amazed by your interview with him.
Very interesting interview. I’m very curious about how he feels now on some of these topics. He’s obviously a very intelligent and learned person, but his view on things like the CES letter are very strange to me. I don’t see the benefit of continuing to hold onto beliefs that can be proven untrue by science or historical study, or to continue to give admiration and benefit of the doubt to people and organizations that cause so much harm, no matter how much comfort or sense of community these things might bring to me personally.
I find these episodes on theology and bible study fascinating! Thank you!
I'm so glad!
This is a great interview. I am looking forward to seeing the follow up to this. It's pretty apparent to me that David is still very early in his transition out of the LDS church and that there is still some mental gymnastics and maybe a bit of cognative dissonance in regards to church leadership, history, and problems. Also, in reagards to the BoM and it's authorship. I think there is a lot of evidence that the BoM was fabricated by Masons. I may have to organize and put these thoughts on paper. There is no way IMO that JS wrote that all by himself. Great interview David! Looking forward to seeing the rest! My latest thing has been getting into 'historicity'. I couldn't ask for better timing on these!
I LOVE this plan as a new viewer. There’s so many episodes I don’t know which are best! And tv shows can play reruns and reach more people and get more residuals so youtubers should get to as well
Wonderful informative and thought provoking interview. I am very glad you are re- running it. Thank you. But 6 years later, how does he feel about things today?
Stay tuned next week!!!
NeverMo here, so I have only heard his name many times on MS. This is such a great idea, John! We don't know what we don't know and I am looking forward to hearing more from the most important interviews you've done from the past. Bring 'em on!
Yes!! This!!! ☝️☝️☝️ Thank you for releasing this again in this way!
Great interview. Thanks, John. Thanks, David! For a moment there I was going to go back to church. But a lie is a lie. Truth is truth. They cannot exist together. Equity, inequity love, respect, Justice peace, happiness.. what do these words mean? What sustains their meaning? You can’t call the book of Abraham translation, then change it to a catalyst for a revelation and not be a liar. Golden plates? Lie. First vision? lie. Mormonism lie. polygamy revelation. Lie. Love? Not with lies. Excommunication spiritual, amputation there’s no prosthetic for that. The Mormon church, and its doctrine is sustained with lies. That’s what it is. Apologies, confessions repentance recompense. Tell the truth the Mormon church should just come clean. The only way forward.
Agreed
It was great hearing this again. David is so genuine! Can’t wait to hear an update of David’s life now. Wondering if David still believes the same or if his beliefs have evolved further.
You forgot to mention he was my seminary teaching at Syracuse high back in 2014! Love you David ❤😅
I love David's approach to faith and religion as I am feeling the same way as a physically half in and out of the church. It's also fascinating to hear how the bible isn't a linear texts some of it was written after the fact that was eye opening to me !
A definite favorite from late 2018. ❤❤❤❤
Mr. Bokovoy, never forget that by teaching, working for the poor and outcast, and striving for justice you are doing exactly the work that was done by Jesus the Christ. Good for you.
3:34:03 "Donald Trump is an American version of Adolf Hitler." 😂 ❤ 😂 ❤ Love this so much!!
Really? What section of society is he trying to exterminate? What countries is he trying to invade and take over? What political enemies is he prosecuting and locking up?
I'll wait while you bring the facts. I'm open to hearing it. And I don't mean regurgitated statements from MSM. I mean real facts.
@@tamaraelsberry6630I think he labeled himself as a “liberal democrat socialist” or somesuch which automatically means Trump is evil as the professor’s self-designation requires it. I appreciate his biblical scholarship but kneejerking Trump as Hitler is always weak sauce in declaration and debate. I could go all ad hominem on Biden too but how well will it go in persuading anyone of anything except that I am shallow and unserious?
This was so wonderfully heart warming 💗
These interviews were transformative for me! It’s great to see you’re republishing them.
Great interview…David is so very knowledgeable. I was raised a Christian, and at some point came into contact with the missionaries, memory is not as clear anymore but pretty positive through a man I was dating. After a few years I discovered the to be NOT at all was portrayed to me. I really relate to something that David has said several times about falling in love with Jesus, that has happened to me in the last couple of years after deciding to re-read the Bible. Look forward to hearing more from him.
Really really loved this episode!! David was able to put words to so many of my feelings. Thank you for the re-upload. Really makes me want to go back and listen to EVERY episode, I’ve listened to SO many the past few years but not many of the older ones! Thank you for all your hard work, truly inspiring.
What an incredible episode!
This was a really hard watch for me. What a noble man
Love the themed weeks! Thank you for sharing!
I love David's "religion" be a good person and live a good life. To me, that's what God wants from all of us.
Today, I reminded myself “Manifest Heaven on Earth” .. he said this and I hope this mantra helps me be a better person.
Wow. Great interview! John has a really good interviewing skill-he brought out different parts of this gentleman and his beliefs very nicely.
Now I’m going to see if there was follow up!
What a brilliant idea..I've only been listening a year. There is so much history on this channel, what an exciting way to bring old content to your new people
Hope he’s doing great now! ❤
I am so excited for the next episodes 😊
I love the way Jonh Asked questions so directly and he obviously to keep all Mormon idea as if was the truth starts to get uncomfortable to respond. 😂
I loved this episode and I’m so grateful to hear this interview! Parts of it were a little activating for me and I want to thank John for the amazing, thoughtful questions! He addressed so many points that I felt needed to be addressed and through his questions elicited answers from David that helped me understand his point of view! It didn’t sway my opinion on what I personally believe to be a a toxic and predatory culture BUT it did help me see why other people might not view it the same way based on their own experiences
Very smart guy. Love his attention to data over dogma.
Just one hour in, and I’m loving this David B.
Brilliant video !
Loved every second of this ❤ what an amazing giving man
What a great and inspring man. Thank yoy for sharing his story!
This interview is a nice bridge for me for where I'm at right now with being able to look for and appreciate ideas wherever they can be found that will help elevate all of us living on this planet :)
I love this guy and his outlook on things! I resonate with his views strongly.
What a loving amazing person. I feel some of my anger and frustration passing by hearing his perspective. Thank you for sharing your thoughts
This has been the most enlightening stream from John so far in that it opened my eyes to a new or very different mind set. I am especially taken aback by his devotion to and description of the BOM being so scholarly and his belief in the idea it was inspired by Joseph
Smith. I respect him for his love of the book. He is educated and impressive. I give him regard for his unique way of processing the BOM and realization that some things just do not add up. He stays devoted to what speaks to his heart
I live in Tooele, lol. Very cool! I teach at Western Governors University at home... I wish we had a department you could teach in.. Very cool on your studies. I received my doctorate in higher education and adult learning. Love to listen to your educational history.
Sup neighbor!
This was a cool one. David had a really interesting, unique perspective and I appreciate the what I would characterize as "intro to critical bible studies". Definitely a lot to learn from him.
I love this man. What a fantastic interview.
I completely love you, David! You are always close to my heart!❤
Wow..great post
As non LDS, and a believer in Jesus, this ends sadly for me , as so many stories of people who leave Mormonism do. He’s all over the place. No longer a believer in truth, only what he defines as truth as he goes. He’s a well meaning person who is helping others but clearly confused and hurt. This is where the Mormon church leads people time after time. It’s just sad.
I'm still confused regards Moroni Ch 10 v 9 How the most learned can miss a simple scripture. Why is it in the BOM, when the Revelation is in D&C
I would be VERY interested in hearing what he has to say about these closing questions now that there has been some distance in time. Just to see if he has been more able to nail down how he feels about tenets of mormonism now.
I am a never mo....but my goodness....what an all round amazing man!
Wonderful interview. What a great guy David B. seems to be! Thanks JD!
Love, love David Bakovoy... Greeting from Iceland ( Spiritist )
Love David Bokovoy week!
Love this man ❤....honest, vulnerable, super respectful, and a black belt in knowing what matters even thru his unbelievable depth of knowledge...this isnt an episode for only ex-momo's but any religious person could find a shit laod of value in this... even the 2nd time around..Thanks John and crew❤
Very exciting
I have a lot of respect and admiration for David! I would like to hear to hear more about how he’s able to hold love for figures like Joseph Smith along with the knowledge that Smith abused his power and preyed on children. I’d be very interested to hear how he manages his thoughts and feelings around those topics and if he has any tips for others who may feel compelled out of devotion (or any other reason) to defend figureheads who’ve done harm
I think he is in transition still in his recovery from Mormonism. give it 5-10 yeaars and i think u'll see his views more crystallized instead of being so fluid.
Boy. The people at BYU who blocked you have dirty hands and calloused hearts. Satan laughs. The heavens weep. God be with you forever - for you experienced such betrayal. You can consecrate this trial to our Lord. You have a heart., you gentle and kind soul.
My first thought was that the panel wasn't defending the church from a questionable scholar, they were defending their own careers from comparison with a scholar who might bring their department to a new level. I recognized my thought as uncharitable - but then he mentioned them going to academic conferences on the university's dime, and skipping out to play golf 😂
Love that you have questioned! Read "Jesus Before Christianity" by Albert Nolan OP (OP is Order of Preachers). He tells what the physical Jesus' life really was when he walked the Earth. Next: in 325CE, there was a council of church leaders at Nicea who removed all the texts of the Bible that they didn't like. This is how the Catholics got the Nicene Creed. The Bible is a collection of what people wrote about God - what is your experience? What is written in the book of David Bokovoy? You have insights that no one else has, stop trying to make it work for everyone, it never will. Lastly, God is too immense a concept for our minds to comprehend. God is spirit, outside our comprehension. The difference between life and death, that breath, the inspire, is God. We are born with a god-shaped hole - we make up whatever fills the hole. The problem is that we want consensus which will never happen. Your god is yours alone. Your connection with god is your soul, the part of you that is eternal. It's that little voice in your chest. Listen to that inspiration!
BYU's Ancient Scripture dept. includes Eric Huntsman, who earned his PhD in Ancient History at UPenn, went to BYU's Classics Dept., but transferred (eventually) to Ancient Scripture because that's where his heart was. He might have been on David's "Orthodoxy Assessment Interview"
I can’t figure out the discord. I hope you guys can still be on RUclips.
3:15:48 Another great short or two here!
Please have David Bokavoy and Dan McClellan on in the same episode. Please please.
What was the name of the book David referenced, he had picked it up in the book store and stated it was life changing book?
At 2:23:45. The letter from the First Presidency on children of gay parents not allowed to be baptized came out in 2015. The letter was read by bishops after church in a special session. This was when we still had three hour blocks. It lead to three households leaving the church in my ward. After the damage was done, it was reversed in 2018.
So grateful for this remastered release of David Bokovoy! Thanks to MSP for introducing so many of us to him several years back cause he is amazing! Brilliant and compassionate! Got choked up several times listening to this series!
Please do more of these! Your archive is a treasure trove!
The choice of whether to seek Heaven or heaven-on-earth is, as David says, the central one. Which is real and attainable, and which is a pipe dream? Decide, and then live accordingly.
AS A scholar how does he accept Joseph Smith as anything but a charlaton?
My only issue with his love of the BoM is that it is not a beautiful elegant text. It has some of the most awkward, strangely worded, bizarre prose.
Remastered should have their own episode sequence, and not part of the "mainline" stories sequence.
MSP Remastered 001 - Bible Scholar Rethinks Mormonism - David Bokovoy, Pt 1
3:05:23 Jordan Peterson. It would be interesting to interview him and see what he thinks of mormonism
It sounds to me like David Bokovoy has embraced the values of secular humanism but just isn't able to perceive those ideas outside of a religious framework. As a person who has never been religious or spiritual I can speak with experience and say it is quite doable to live those values without that religious foundation.
I truly don't need religion, never had a religious bone in my body 🤣 my dad was raised a steep catholic and read himself out of it, my mom's dad was a Adventist priest and she proved God wasn't real when she was three years old by placing another item on a Bible. She was being told God would punish that 😂
Thanks for the podcast and all of this, very educational and interesting. Greets from Germany ❤
I first watched this back in 2020 when I knew zero about Mormons, and I agree that David is a scholar and I was amazed at his calm personality. Now this time around, with plenty of Nuancehoe and John Larsen and even Sandra and Mike under my belt, I'm troubled a bit by that calmness and the free pass given to JS or Brigham Young or Nelson or Oaks or the rest as "inspired". I think I'm almost or actually seeing cognitive dissonance going on. Granted, this interview is from 2018 and that was 6 years ago. so David was maybe fairly fresh in his faith crisis and maybe only a few items had fallen from his shelf by then - well probably a lot of items, but then again, that cognitive dissonance thing.... I'm just a lowly never-mo and I'm kind of pissed as hell at this institution, after taking in 1000+ episodes, for the unhealthy practices and control that they exercise over millions, but then again and unlike David in this episode, I don't see a single word of the teachings of this restored church as inspired by God in any way, not one. I'm anxiously waiting for the next part to see where he is today
Seems to be an amazing guy. Don’t understand “I still love Joseph Smith.”
Just for his Trump views, I love this man! Lol I think he is spot on there and a lot of other points as well. Glad you resurrected this interview.
Be interesting to see where he's at now. Not sure how he can speak out against church policies but still remain a believer and not have any consequences as far as remaining a church member. Idk. Kind of seems like he's being evasive and not wanting to make waves. JMO
Wait for what’s coming.
Seems like a nice guy, but much of what he says, I find mind boggleing. This is 2 years old; I wonder how much he's changed since this recording.
I think it’s 6 years old actually.
Stay tuned for parts 2-5!!!
I wish David was my dad.
Between Two Ferns before that was funny.
I'm a never Mormon, and find so many former Mormons on this show (including Dr. John) so bizarrely mesmerized by this cult. By their own words they will tell horrific stories of lies, egregious harm, then turn around in the next breath and say, "I don't want to see the church dismantled". I find it bizarre and unsettling. Mormon world is weird.
It’s an attempt to salvage the good while expelling the bad. I see nothing wrong with that.
I’m glad he despises dRump. I love❤that but his infatuation with Jos. Smith and the Book of Mormon…eegh, ouch that’s a stretch for me
Chloroform in print as Mark Twain said.
And fan fiction!
I think he's a great guy, but he is way more of an apologist than I expected. At least at this point in his life.
So what did this man do to support his wife as they both in school?
First: how is this your business.
Second: He stated he teaches school.
Third: if she was also going to school, and works, they support each other.
Fourth: part of student loans is funds for living during school.
You must come from an era where women think they need a man to support them. Just because a woman is married doesn't mean she gets to watch soap operas and play house all day while a man pays her way in life. Comments like yours rile me up. Verbally attacking a man or accusatory tones in comments are just wrong. Try this way....what did they do to make ends meet or did they have side jobs? The interview is scholarly, not a play by play life linked in interview. I hope you ask everyone you meet this question.
Yassssss queen Joy Division!
So much of David's story sounds familiar and typical... maybe stereotypical of the semi-troubled teen who finds joy and redemption in the Church (because they really need structure and guidance at home but aren't getting it) and then go whole hog into all things Mormon... only to find upon expanding their minds and educations that Mormonism is deeply, deeply problematic. I can totally relate, although my original desire to become "the next Hugh Nibley" was actully more directed toward New Testament studies and, eventually, the much broader ancient world context in which the New Testament took place. Critical study of ancient civilizations and their documents, myth, religion building, etc., have about the same effect on one's faith as David's "Biblical Studies" ... it's the critical thinking required in a PhD program, especially literary criticism of source documents, that brings one to the point of understanding how self-contradictory scriptures are (not to mention the BofM, which is poorly written, imitative/plagiarized stuff).
Thank You Mormon Stories
Great Leadership! Please respond to that email
U got my address ❤ Erin
You can’t have your cake and eat it too.
Describing trump… well 6 years later…seems like he’s describing Biden 😳
Not an ugly comment I Just did not hear that part in this talk.
He talked about how he isn't sure if there is a God. I know there is a God because of of the many testimonies that have been given of him through the many near death experiences people have had where they meet him and Jesus Christ.
Do you believe the NDE of people who talked with Ala or Buddha ? If not why?
@@TheSaintelias
Thank you! I appreciated you asking that!
Wanted to add my two cents.
Somehow people in other faith traditions meet their own deity. Imagine that!
I wonder why THEY don’t meet Jesus?🧐
After their own NDE they also KNOW god exists.
Seems like an intelligent passionate man...BUT....what a fence sitter!
😅
I'm so sorry but I can't take someone who thinks the Book of Mormon is a good book seriously. It's a badly written western full of anachronisms
You could treat the “Book of Mormon” like the “Lord of the Rings” . And we know that both books are fiction.
The Lord of the Rings is a much better story.
@@annieonpaperAnd better written and with far more believable characters and much more palatable for never purporting to be anything but fiction.
If you embrace what is not something that God approves then you are walking away from His will and He will not recognize you at the end.
You have a very mean version of God, Enedina. We are flawed creations, all of us. All sinners here, even you. And God does not hate any of God’s creations.
Who to say that what he studied is not the truth? Maybe God’s a trickster and those who figure it out WIN?!?! 🥇
I applaud this man’s hunger for knowledge and the knowledge the true. He found it. I am just saying that marriage is for a man and a woman ONLY.
@@Allthoseopposedmmm, I don't think the Bible describes God tricking or tempting - he is the creator and owner of the universe, so he doesn't need to gain anything by tricks; and he is a good father, so he doesn't want to erode our integrity by temptation. If he tests us, it's to show us our own pride, and to strengthen our faith.
Nah @@user-jx2vq5yh3d
Are we being delusional when we see God as many things instead of only love and peace and forgiveness.
You lost me when you want to blame Trump and cannot see the truth of what is going on in America today.