Is the Bible Historical? David Bokovoy Pt. 2 | Ep. 1876 (Remastered Classic)
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- Опубликовано: 14 мар 2024
- David Bokovoy is back to apply higher criticism to Mormon scripture. Today's focus is the Old & New Testaments, which have been remastered from previous interviews 1019, 1020, and 1022.
David Bokovoy Remaster Playlist: • David Bokovoy REMASTER...
Episode Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/portfol...
Chapters
00:03:00 David Bokovoy works at the Prison System
00:08:21 The order of how this episode is laid out
00:08:40 Old Testament assumptions
00:13:13 Calling the Bible a privileged text
00:19:02 How the Bible was constructed, it’s a library that took a 1,000 years to build
00:25:50 Problems with the book of Genesis
00:30:35 The Documentary Hypothesis
00:32:55 Hebrew did not exist at the time of Moses, historical Moses
00:40:55 Where did the story of Moses come from?
00:47:06 Where are the oldest sources of the Bible text? Dead Sea Scrolls
00:50:40 What are the Dead Sea Scrolls?
00:54:00 The Documentary Hypothesis PJED relations
00:56:45 The floor story of Noah helps confirms the Documentary Hypothesis
01:06:55 Using the name Elohim
01:16:00 Talking about the D Source - Deuteronomy
01:22:35 Doublets in the Bible, different versions of the same thing
01:23:35 Anachronisms in the Old Testament
01:30:20 Was God racist in his Chosen people?
01:37:30 The Book of Mormon teaches people how to read scripture -that there are mistakes
01:50:00 The “restoration” of the Church
01:55:35 The problem of Elijah and Elias
01:56:50 Malachai and tithing in the Old Testament
02:08:36 Asherah in the Old Testament
02:14:35 The statements of homosexuality in the Old Testament
02:22:21 The New Testament
02:23:13 Historical Jesus Analysis
02:32:38 Joseph Smith restoring lost writings from the Book of John
02:41:00 Adam Clarke’s Commentary
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It would be fun to have both David Bokovoy and Dan McClellan on Mormon Stories to dialogue together.
I second this idea!
I love listening to biblical scholars. They show how we know the texts came to be. Even if they don’t mean to they show that religion is a creation of man.
Reading the book Who Wrote the Bible by Richard Friedman changed my life. I wanted to understand the scriptures but couldn’t make sense of the double stories, the different numbers of animals on the Ark, the order of creation and much more. I never believed the Bible to be a historical document and inerrant but I did want to understand how it came to be. The result of all my study was becoming agnostic and leaving first, Christianity, and then Mormonism. It was the beginning of intellectual freedom. I’m looking forward to reading David’s book and extend my gratitude to both David and John for this interview.
I heard somewhere "Jews take their scriptures seriously, not literally".
I’m ngl when I think about the suffering that so many people had to go through or currently still go through because of organized religion, my heart breaks
Who is this kid interviewing on Mormon Stories? 😂😂😂👍
You mean moron story
TBH this is another attempt ( my 6th) at digesting these two episodes. Full of information that is important to understand. ❤
I'm so fascinated by all this. I always wish I had taken world religion in college.
I'm not Mormon, would I be able to understand your book? Love the history behind all of it
I needed this. Thank you!
David clearly has an optimistic view of humanity. Regarding whether the bad things in scriptures should be removed or leave them in so we can learn from them, there are an awful lot of people who take these bad things and use them to bully people into following them. There are so many horrible things taught by past prophets and apostles that have been used against believers to convince them to do things they don't want to do. For example, Ervil LeBaron had his followers murdering his enemies, using the blood atonement doctrine as justification. All the victims of polygamy in the various offshoots also tie back to these. There are way too many bad people in the world who will twist these teachings and scriptures to their own advantage.
@2:19:00 Such a novel way of thinking about sexuality within religious contexts. So glad he was able to help people and highlight the distinction and context about homosexuality. Things that I previously was wrestingly with intellectually when I was younger but no pastors or people in my life could provide any insights. Has been so wonderful hearing this loving, kind, authentic and intelligent man share his thoughts. I recently have rediscovered an interest in religion which for so many years as an agnostic atheist was dead. I’m not interested in being a believer but enjoy learning from academics (people) that know their shit and religious institutions don’t realise how much they need people like him. They will lose so many like myself who read the texts and have difficult questions and no-one will say anything reasonable so you find atheist content and move on. I like how he is honest and can read the original text in the original language, can provide context of the time / language, is honest about inconsistencies or interpretations and acknowledges the limitations of humans.
It’s such a refreshing take. Thank you
Thanks!
I appreciate the time stamps!
Him quoting JS to church leaders only hurts. Leaders don’t want past prophets words to hold current leaders to a standard.
I love all this ! Thanks…
I want to do what he's doing, teach University classes (intro science in my case) to inmates. It's just tough to get any institution to understand the 'tism, and the fact that I am a post-overload auty, and unable/unwilling to mask well. It means I say dumb things at times, and need a good mentor. Even when the Chancellor is a Psychologist, I can't get them to even try to work with me.
Very interesting but why we celebrate Easter?
I heal with every episode, thank you, i have faith in the possibility of good in religion again
Wait, does John think Moses came before Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
I want to understand why sacrifice, the death of a creature, is required by God? Is that studied? Is there an explanation?
I'm upset that cult leader Natalie Cline hasn't been covered. But I like Bokovoy
I love John’s clean look :D
What happened it just ended ??
Part 3 coming Monday.
Reflection of people’s interaction with what they think is the divine.
You’re facing the wrong direction 😢 you’re supposed to be facing left (from our POV). Happy for the new set up tho.
This is an old setup! This was filmed years ago :)
Is this an unspoken rule? I know plenty of podcasts / interviewers that have this setup.
Esther was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls! It was a damaged scroll that could not be read until recent new technology.
@1:38:55 Not reading God’s will in every verse you read but through the filter of a human mortal who is doing their best to ascertain Gods will so always have a grain of salt.
Interesting statement and is something I have always felt when reading the bible as a teenager. I don’t always assume they are doing their best at times I think they are biased and writing based on their own values or interests. Also, isn’t this the case for every religion the writers are trying to understand what god is staying for humans? Glad that’s recognised by the author!
I'm a bit upset you haven't covered the sale of the Kirtland temple. From the impact on the Community of Christ to how the LDS Church is likely to use this purchase in its propaganda,including how this purchase conrtols the narrative of Mormon History to favor the Utah mormon claims of being the true form or mormonism. Also wondering if you have refrained from covering this subject in the process of attempting to negotiate an interview with the next CoC Prophet-President who happens to be a woman.
You know this is a replay of an old episode right?
Mormonish and Mormon Newscast have the Kirtland coverage.
Perhaps JD is away on vacation or something. He’s not an ER doctor who needs to just always be there.
It’s more that we’ve recorded a few new episodes with David so we wanted to highlight his old stuff first.
I love you man but you gotta let the man finish. So much valuable information lost and I’m only 50 min in. 🤦🏾♂️
This is from 2018. 6 years ago…
right ?! I'm like let the man finish his the thought he's conveying before trying to redirect all the time to what John wants to talk about ! Grinds my gears !
Non Mormon how can they sell a historic site? Kirkland Temple
The main mormon church bought it. The temple had been operated by the RLDS, or community of christ. So the "mormons" sorta bought it, didn't sell it.
In the temple they teach you, "you can buy anything in this world with money."
Bokovoy is interesting & makes some good points but i find Russell Gmirkin's proposals more convincing
it's nice to watch this for informational purposes but some of it is a bit dated
Yes. When dealing with a text that is thousands of years old, it will be full of dated ideas.
@@jamesbayless5842 haha very funny
i was talking about Bokovoy's ideas are a bit dated
the scholarship he was talking about comes from the 90's & ignores the past 20 to 30 years
he really needs to get with current scholarship if he wants to impress me
as far as the bible material is concerned it is only about 2000 years even though a very small portion actually has an antecedent of an antecedent that dates to 2000 BCE but it no longer resembles that because the names have been changed & so on
@@theprinceofdarkness4679 that makes sense. Hopefully he sees this and works harder to impress you with info that is supposedly 20 years newer about a 2700 year old text.....
David completely misinterprets D&C 93. That section follows BoM theology, in which Jesus is God himself. Saying he was “called the Son of God” does not imply Jesus was not literally divine but rather the opposite. The text is explaining why God himself was called “the Son of” God. The Christology here is definitely much closer to John’s than to Mark’s.
The average Mormon's ignorance of the Bible is extraordinary.
Please stop interrupting all the time. Let the person finish their thought.
I think John's input and "interrupting" adds so much value to the discussion....because it is a discussion not a monolog. If he sat there and just let the guest talk every time it would probably come across as disorganized and the guests would probably feel uncomfortable.
Your opinions on jewish choseness is not only wrong but is totally offensive. You should have a rabbi on to address. They were the people chosen to bring god's words to the world as a delegation. This is a burden. It is not racist. Even a gentile was invited to pray at the temple of solomon. Further, other people were allowed to join. Not everyone who left egypt was an israelite. Finally, some of the greatest figures from the hebrew bible were not jewish, ie jethro. Ruth was a convert. Her descendant was david. I could go on......
Your opinion is totally offensive to me, who does not believe in any of this and who doesn’t like your attitude. How about that :)
@@h.neubert8770 to make it simple, there are jews of practically every race. Saying the concept choseness is racist, therefore, is nonsensical. Often people impose present concepts upon the past. It is comparing apples to oranges.
Maybe it’s not racist but it’s classist or tribalism or elevating a select group based and excluding all others. And calling it a burden is perhaps ignoring the idea that only those to whom the message could be transmitted might be saved… how many non Jews have existed in this world. Far more than Jews. This creates a presumption that not all (or even a majority) are chosen or the audience for this delegation. It is exclusionary no matter how you chop it down. It doesn’t make it wrong, or unique or anything. It’s not and your opinion is fine. But it is an opinion informed by your current modern religious views and therefore an is the exact thing David bokovy is trying to get us to think beyond. I have a problem with all these exclusionary religious traditions but they are an inherent historical part of the human history with the divine and our natural tribal nature. I hope we can think bigger in this modern connected world while still maintaining our connection with religion and the divine.
@@littlebish24 in podcast referred it as being racist. There are jews of all colors. Further, it is possible to convert to the religion. While admittedly exclusionary, it is not racist.
The problem with this guy is that he does not take into account the different types of language found throughout the Bible.
The Bible must be read in the context of the meta narrative.