Like Sunday school But hearing the truth for the first time*** lol. It’s actually more interesting than Sunday school and we’re all super interested. The Truth is stranger than fiction for sure.
Never Mormon here - these videos are SO important to me to understand more contextual history and even theological concepts within the church that I would never know. These sessions are so fascinating to me and I’m so thankful for this podcast and all the amazing, thoughtful, intelligent, eloquent, talented hosts that share their research and commentary.
Right, me too, it’s really helpful when I encounter a practicing Mormon, to understand what they are referring to, and to make comments that might get them to see that other Christian’s do not believe Joe’s crap.
@@justkiddin84 check out the other episodes of Mormon stories podcast too. Lots of great critical thinking skills to help people disassemble all religious indoctrination, not just Mormonism. Especially bible based religions. Check out the episodes with Dan McClellan and David Bokovoy.
These LDS Discussions have been so helpful to me with making progress in therapy. I left about 8 years ago and just in the last few months have I really been digging into, for lack of a better word, the lore of the LDS church. So many of the challenges that I'm tackling in therapy directly tie to the toxic teachings of the LDS faith. These videos are extremely valued and I appreciate how Mike has been able to present things in a logical and gentle way. There is no shaming occurring and that is so healing. Thank you so so much for all you do.
You are in the right place. I have been free and clear for a lot of years . . . this would have made everything so much easier. I'm glad they are here for those who need them now.
Just remember that you're much better educated than Smith ever was & you're honest. All you ever wanted was to be told the truth & now through John, Mike & Nemo you have good people telling you that truth & treating you with the respect that you deserved from the beginning. You're in a good place with this channel.
I think a lot of the people teaching us were drinking from the same KoolAid pitcher. They probably had not even given a second thought with a Critical mind/eye in their lesson preparations. Just followed the manuals. 🤔🤔🤔
@@patricianoel7782You weren’t foolish. Naive, perhaps, but if you were young you were presented with this world view by people you knew and trusted and loved. As many people around the world are indoctrinated into controlling groups of all sizes and types. Blaming yourself and demeaning yourself as ‘a fool’ is part of that training. First, respect and love you, know that you are equal to every other person. Forgive yourself for past mistakes.♥️✌️
What I always wondered is, how does the Church explain the discrepancy between The Articles of Faith stateing that we are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, but Native American and Black people are responsible for the sins of Ancestors from thousands of years ago? I am an ExMo and part Native American. The Church never cold tell me why my family is inferior and Western European White people are better.
You’re looking at the basis of religion itself. Make believe answers to questions that people of the time didn’t have the capability of answering in reality. And it just so happens to be helpful if those made up answers make your “tribe” look good and justified in their actions.
Spot on, Joseph Smith was a racist. I cannot figure out how anyone could be a Mormon, knowing the racism in the Book of Mormon. With the verses, in the book of mormon, about, being white and delightsome. And the other verses, that says that the dark skinned people were cursed. And Brigham Young actually would have the church cut off the heads of any dark skinned people when they had interracial marriages, it was supposed to be a blood atonement or something like that. How evil he and Joseph Smith were, it’s a straight up Cult.
@@OuttaMyMind911 that is true but the racism is one of the few things that was included in All of Joseph Smiths versions of scriptures. All of them. It's disgusting!
I am 69yrs old and left the church in my 20s. Im grateful my father was not a member because it gave me another world view besides Mormonism. There is something so weird about referring to people as mormon or nonmormon when active in the church, such black and white thinking. Like nobody else matters. Even at a young age i felt uncomfortable when members would testify " this is the true church and the only church". It took me years to undo the harm the teachings did to me and as a female i will never forget the interviews with my bishop that were so inappropriate. Thank you for this podcast because i dont know any recovering mormons besides my siblings.
I appreciate all the connections you point out. It’s really a house of cards. Recently I heard someone summarize a meeting with LDS Missionaries who couldn’t answer her questions. Her conclusion was that Mormons believe in their feelings over facts and evidence.
For me, the biggest betrayal happened not because I had believed a load of bullsh*t, but because I had based so much of my world view, self-concept, and emotional wellbeing off of believing a load of bullsh*t. I was totally humiliated, and it wrecked my self-esteem for a few years. I had to relearn basic emotional regulation because I was never taught how to self-soothe independent from Mormonism. I learned the hard way never to hold an ideology or authority figure too sacred to question. It's an excellent life lesson, but boy did it suck to learn!
The coffee issue really is a small example of the bizarre mental gymnastics that it takes to reconcile all of this. Brewed is bad unless it’s herbal, yet coffee and tea are herbs, hot chocolate is fine with caffeine (and soda) but not coffee. There is no winning if you try to apply logic. And ‘what is a horse’ got me, too. No horses anywhere but Eurasia 6,000 years ago.
This LDS Discussions playlist I feel like is one of the most important resources for anyone leaving or considering joining the church. It is nuanced, it is respectful, it is very well researched and informed. In fact, I have decided I won't talk with anyone in the church about the reasons I left until they have watched at least one episode from this series.
I was baptized into the church when I was 9 or 10 years old always had questions but always got shrugged off ,I'm now 65 years old and stumbled on to this program and have learned more than ever I'm grateful to y'all for this program .the biggest thing I'm grateful for is letting go guilt I felt for many years ,and learning to listen to what my thoughts are telling me, and what the spirit leads me to do ,
This is my absolute favorite content! My favorite team! I will be sad to see it end. This series has been so helpful to me and others who I know that were turned off by other truth claim podcasts, but were able to listen with open minds to you. I'm very grateful.
This was probably my all-time FAVORITE MormStories/LDS Discussions Episode by far. Y'all nailed the monumental task of addressing some of the most impactful aspects of Mormonism in a very simple, direct, and intelligent way. Love all of you working together to make this content. You have helped me heal and grow so much in these past many years of my post-Mormon journey and given me the strength to step into my authenticity and personal strength. I wish that I could give you each a duffel bag stuffed with legally acquired stacks of currency for all of your time and efforts. Thank you 🙏💚
Ty so much all three of you and everyone else who's been a guest or worked behind the scenes on this podcast. I was a Mormon for a couple of years in my teens and have been interested to learn more about it. I've been an atheist for about 14yrs. My 10 yr old came to me scared to tell me that he believes in God (influence from his best friend) . I've supported him in whatever beliefs he might develop but also try to offer an understanding of science and history so he can come to his own conclusions with all the facts. He has listened in occasionally while I've watched this series and is appalled at LDS history. He is LGBTQ+, his brother is biracial, he knows about consent and hates lies. I've been able to pepper in information about other religions too and that he should be wary about organizations that tell him how to live.
There's many Mormons in central California where I live and this RUclips channel has really helped me understand some of the struggles and diverse points of views of former mormon and lds people.
I’ve enjoyed this series with Mike. He gets to the heart of these topics and lays it all out in an easily understood way. He talks really fast and I like that too. I also like how John pumps the brakes every once in awhile and asks good clarifying questions. I also love Nemo’s commentary along the way. Thanks guys.
"CARTOONISH" may be my favorite word spoken today to describe Mormonism. I have absolutely LOVED this LDS Discussions series. I've watched every single one, and I can't wait to go back and rewatch the flood and tower of babbel episodes. I come from Evangelical Christianity and I have deconverted from that cartoon as well. It's hard to pick a favorite LDS Discussions episodes here, but if I have to, it probably is the flood one. It was the one that helped me in my deconversion journey.
I've left the church but have still felt trauma bonded and defensive of the church. This entire series has been so helpful in me making those necessary detachments. You were so kind and cautious and made it possible for me to engage while still questioning my beliefs. Thank you so much.
This episode would make a very good book to publish. Just a simple handbook that former members can use in their discussions to point to each point raised in discussion.
Just a side note. I recently started reading/studying the New Revised Standard Version of the Old Testament, New Testament and a few Apocryphal books. I have to say this version is such a joy to read. I feel I’m reading good literature in my common language. I agree much is myth and story but I did learn so much about humanity and an amazing all power God.
It is great to have corrected translations now, so we have more correct bibles! I still like the King James for certain sections because of the Shakespeare era poetics of it. ♥️✌️
As a never mormon I have been following mormon stories for a while now and I have enjoyed this series, in fact I’m a bit upset that I have caught up. I was raised catholic and this has made me think about my own ingrained ideas. I love the banter between the three of you and I hope there will be many more episodes of this series
All day I've had Praise to the Man stuck in my head. I sang it to my 29 year old daughter (who I did not raise in the church) and her response, in her usual witty sarcasm was, "Yeah, cuz that's not culty at all!" Just listening to JD talk about how when you're raised in it, it is very hard to see all the ways it just isn't right or true. It's harmful to children to indoctrinate them so thoroughly but the church really has that down to a science (possibly the only science they trust). Thanks all for the hard work on this series. I can't imagine the hours it took, but I'm sure you and your families deserve a vacation. 😊
After 40:00, thank you for pointing out Spencer W Kimball’s involvement in the Indian Placement program. The apologetic that dark skin didn’t mean Native Americans, Polynesian, or Tongan is top tier mental gymnastics. That man should not have a building named after him on BYU campus.
The stuff at 58:00 hits home for me, because as a Jewish person, The Book of Mormon absolutely sounds like fanfiction with Hebrew-sounding names and places, but without any actual Jewish cultural context. Didn't know that one of the mormon apologetics was the Deicide Charge, though! Doesn't surprise me though because Christians have been saying we killed him for... milennia.
2:33:45 this example reminds me of the Office episode when Michael Scott's paper company is unsustainable and going broke, so he asks the accountant to "crunch the numbers again" in hopes that it will change the outcome.
The embedded young earth creationism is absolutely fatal. Joseph locked things down so air tight that mormonism can't breathe, and now its untenable as literal truth.
Just as the literalism / inerrant Bible and translation branches of the mainline church painted themselves into a corner. Such that YECs have to misexplain science, built giant arks etc and use so much money and time defending Genesis 1 - 11..... The only reason they are (mostly) not also flat earthers is that heliocentric globe earth was established before the mid 1800s literalism movement began, yep all fresh in Joe's time.
44:15 If dark-skinned people are considered a curse, according to Mormon religion, then what is the purpose of missionaries trying to convert people in Brazil, Jamaica, Ghana, Nigeria, South Africa, etc.? And why would any African-American consider joining LDS?
Also...according to The Book of Mormon, when a Black person repents and becomes righteous, his or her skin will be lightened.... Has this EVER been documented? Has ANYONE ever changed his or her dark complexion with...repentance...?
Here’s another implication: if the church is true, eternity as an exalted woman would suck. As a heavenly mother, you’d just be pumping out billions of spirit babies, to NEVER see most of them again after their earth trial, since the majority of them aren’t making it back to the celestial kingdom. Worse yet, none of those lost children would even know your name. At least the inhabitants of outer darkness know about their “loving” Heavenly Father, who loves us so little that he won’t even tell us about our mother. This was the nail in the coffin for my wife on her faith journey. She realized that she would never want to be a heavenly mother, seeing how she’d be locked away and unheard of. On top of that, she’d have to share me with other wives if I ever got them, and she’s not too thrilled about that idea. Essentially, she says if Mormon heaven is real, that’s the last place she wants to be in the next life.
I just started watching this video and I was immediately reminded of a quote I heard many times in church that all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. Here's one of many similar statements: "With God our Heavenly Father, all truth, wherever found or however apprehended, is circumscribed into one great whole. Ultimately, there are no contradictions, no quarrels, no inscrutable paradoxes, no mysteries." (Howard W. Hunter) Apologists can't have it both ways. If an apologetic argument being proposed to explain away a truth claim problem is the truth, then it must nicely fit in with all other apologetic arguments being used to explain away other truth claims. If they don't fit together nicely into the "truth", which is "one great whole" with "no contradictions, no quarrels, no inscrutable paradoxes, no mysteries", then those which don't fit nicely together into the "one great whole" of "truth" must be untrue.
Funny how you struggle to see it until you step away and then it’s a tsunami of reality and you feel ridiculous for not being able to let yourself see it before!
I had no idea we had British Mormons! Thank you for all of your discussions I’ve learnt so much and I’m sorry for people stuck between a faith and truth! Lots of love from V in the UK xx
I'm also British & it was news to me when I first found out. I had this naive idea that you had to be in Utah surrounded by the Mormon faith & raised in the LDS to be a believer. Obviously not, my excuse is that I'm in Liverpool & maybe they're a bit thin on the ground up here as I've never seen hide nor hair of them. I do find the whole thing fascinating I found the BoM to be like some second rate fantasy book with so many laugh out loud moments that I kinda enjoyed it. It was also good reading your comment now I know I'm not the only Brit who enjoys this channel & this discussion series.
@@johnmichaelson9173 I was completely naive to it also! Have family in Liverpool but can also add didn’t seem to have any Mormons in the Northamptonshire area or now the Isle of Wight! I feel I’m watching fantasy/sci-fi aswell it’s extremely fascinating but also sad at some of the pain people endure through this religion. Good to know another Brit watching aswell :) V xx
Have you never had the missionaries around? Or seen the very American style white steeple churches? Look up BBC iplayer for Mormons are coming - for a view of missionary training and wider experiences.
Re: the slide about polygamy at around 50:00 Joseph Smith's evolution on polygamy reminds me of evolutions people go through when they want to do something but know it will be potentially disruptive to their social status and relationships. -"The Thing is bad, and I am very interested in it, just to learn how bad the Thing is." -"The Thing is complex/more nuanced than people think." AND/OR -Continuing to say the Thing is bad in public but private experimentation with the Thing. -"The Thing is good, and the people involved are okay, but *I* would never." -Publicly admitting to do the thing along with excuses (i.e. "I only do it because I *have* to.") Of course, the difference between Joseph Smith and most people is that most people don't claim to be speaking for god. Particularly, Joseph Smith reminds me so much of many polyamory bros (god love em). I know there's lots of motivations for him to found Mormonism (financial, existential re: his brother's death, bringing his family together, ego), but I wonder if he would have founded it if he felt comfortable living some kind of public polyamorous life. (But also... I know he was also a sexual predator, and that's not the same.)
The book of Mormon's primary reason is to authenticate the restored gospel and of Christ mission. It is problematic when we need to say it's not a real historic text, but to borrow a phrase it's "meta-true" - it undermines the authority of the church
As a former Mormon, I left before knowing most of the stuff you guys have brought up. I hope that current Mormons who are having doubts will listen to what you have to say with the thought that it might possibly be true.
Can someone please explain to me, in BOM, Moroni ch 10 verse 9 ...The Word of Wisdom was practiced in days of the lamanites an the nephites, Joseph gave the revelation to them from OUR TIME , thats amazing, absolutely staggering.can you believe this Sh...Throw away them magic mushrooms.
I would appreciate if you mentioned the Mesoamerican Archaeological evidences scholarly here. For example how we dont see any form of Egyptian tied to the Mixe-Zoque language family. Or any heiroglyphs of pre-Christ Christianity, or simply stone boxes with metal plates. Keep up the great work tho!
31:25 speaking as an ex-Catholic in my experience we were taught Moses and the Exodus happened in some way even though I thought I could believe Adam and Eve were metaphorical (but if so where did Original Sin and the Fall come from, and without that what do we need Jesus for?) and what you mentioned here is hugely problematic for most of Christianity in general except maybe the most liberal denominations, main reason why I abandoned the religion entirely is because if most of the Bible is ahistorical then most of the doctrines make no sense and you don’t really have much left as in my experience even most liberal Christians and Catholics will draw the line at the Resurrection and Jesus’ divinity, once I rejected both of these I knew I wasn’t a Christian in any meaningful sense anymore. Learning about the extra problems Mormonism has to deal with further convinced me that at worst apologetics is basically the art of defending the indefensible and the fact that the religion didn’t fall apart on day one is proof that people will more than gladly spend the rest of their lives and even die for a “false” religion, for us apostates of other groups we sometimes get asked why would the Apostles die for a lie if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead but again Mormonism shows that people die for a lie all the time, the fact that it’s not as small as Scientology and has millions of followers (and has influence over a whole state) is an indictment against the veracity of religion in general if you ask me. Granted even as an atheist the Bible still has some value to me as I now see it as mostly as a collection of mythological narratives, some of which nay have been based on real events but you can’t take them as face value (like with the Iliad which may have been based on an actual Trojan war since Greek mythology is still pretty relevant to us, even I got some things out of the BoM and the Qu’ran when I decided to read both of them as unconvinced as I was of their truth claims), and that’s why this year I was more than happy to put up nativity scenes all over the place and there’s some other Catholic practices I still do mostly because they’re tied to my cultural background as a Mexican immigrant (and I guess I’m technically a Lamanite according to Mormon lore). However my impression is that even without the polygamy groups like the FLDS are known for Mormonism is still a pretty literalist denomination as you’ve shown and some might consider it somewhat fundamentalist in some aspects, I get the impression that most churches take the Old Testament stories as historical in some way and the ones that don’t are the exception and not the rule. 1:07:35 in my case I've also heard some apologists use the mitochondrial Adam and Eve and refer to a book by a guy named Joshua Swamidass (haven't read it) as further proof that somehow a literal Adam and Eve can fit with what we know about human evolution, I really think part of the reason why the Creationist movement exists is because so many doctrines fall apart, not just for Mormonism but also most Christian denominations, if there was no literal Fall as that's what finally broke my shelf to say the least. 1:38:05 our Catholic equivalent to FAIR also does this when trying to salvage a literal Adam and Eve and I didn't think of this implication, the churches that do accept evolution but also believe in a literal pair we all came from basically have to come up with pre-Adamites because otherwise we're all products of incest and creationists will say that the first generations were somehow preserved from genetic defects.
When did the 15 come to the knowledge that the church is a sham? Before becoming a general authority or at the beginning of their assignment? Or are some of them still oblivious to the scam?
Great episode. The percentage is even smaller though unless we’re talking about different numbers. Given there are 17 million members (most of which are inactive) and there are 8 billion people in the world, 17million/8 billion = .002% What a loving god that is to bless such an insignificant amount of people with his true gospel. Could he really not come up with a better plan?
Wonderful episode, I’m Evangelical Christian and I’m a little confused, sorry! Are all three of these guys active LDS members? Because after this episode I don’t see how they could be!
I was listening to this podcast (and it's fantastic) - but I just had to come on RUclips to watch Nemo polish off his bag of Doritos! Thanks for the laughs guys!
Polygyny is the marrying of one man to many women. Polyandry is the marrying of one woman to many men. Polygamy is the more general term that applies to both sexes in the same terms - one person married to many people simultaneously. I keep hearing the term polyandry being used by those who have left the church. POLYGYNY is the correct term for what the early LDS and current FLDS practice. It would be good to start correcting the misuse of this term in these conversations.
Knowledge isn't interfering with Lucifer's free will. How would it interfere with yours then? Christianity itself is a diminishing blend of (Confucius 500 BC & Greek "Eusebeia" 320BC), with the scapegoating of Jesus as a mediator transition.
I sometimes wonder about Hinckley. Was he willingly or knowingly ignorant? Did he just support traditional or orthodox Mormonism, or was he smart enough to know that if he had any other standpoint that it would cause major divisions in the Church?
@@randyjordan5521I agree since the Church had phenomenal membership growth under his leadership. I pose the question because I think that Mormon "prophets" privately know that the official story cannot be accurate. Among each other i.e. the 15 who lead the Church, they use this esoteric language with each other. There is a manipulation of the language. When they say they pray or have revelation they do not mean it literally. The members believe that they mean it. In spite of it all, the 15 goes to Church, prays and actively fulfills temple ordinances. The 15 realize at some point that if they were to look into the history too deeply, they themselves would discover some unsettling truths. I am sure the Pope is no different. It almost seems like there are two Churches. There is an inward and an outward appearance. There is a Church for the members and then there is one for the leadership. I guess I am just spit balling here.
I think if the Mormon Church took the approach that the Book of Mormon was a narrative evolving fiction that gives their theological view, it would make more sense. I feel like many famous theologians and authors write fiction that fleshes out theological viewpoints. But the claim that the Book of Mormon is truth invalidates it, and prevents genuine revision. And there is no bar for fiction to not be inspired. The Mormon Church literally painted themselves into a corner.
Here is something I never understood as a kid growing up Mormon. “I’d like to bear my testimony, I know this church is true, I know Joseph smith was a true prophet…..” What about Brigham young?? We have Brigham young university, he was the 2nd prophet!!! Was he a true prophet?? Can’t say that with as much confidence can they? Because they don’t know anything about Brigham young, none of us do. @mormonstories, would love to see a lds discussion series featuring Brigham young.
You could say the same about young earth creationism--if it is correct, it upends ALL of science, and possibly other things as well. This has tremendous implications for the nuclear power industry, because if what we've been conventionally taught about the age of the earth is wrong, and the earth is only a few thousand years old, then it also means that we've got it wrong about how long it takes for radioactive substances to decay into harmless substances. It's not just a matter of age. After all the Bible clearly states that the sun goes around the earth, and it strongly implies that that earth is flat. We'd have to rethink almost everything!
Doesn’t the Book of Mormon say that there were people in the americas long before what historians have previously stated up until recently. And didn’t a glacier dominate North America and while melting cause flooding? Honest question?
No. The Book of Mormon account claims two main groups traveling in boats from the “Old World” to the “New World”. It opens with the Lehi/Nephi group traveling around 600 BC. That group gets established and finds remnants of an earlier group (Jaradites), that claim to have traveled at the time of the “Tower of Babel”, which some Biblical scholars might place about 4000 years ago. Current scientific estimates place human population moving into the “New World” about 12 to 15 thousand years ago, near the end of the last ice age. This is long before what the Book of Mormon suggests. Would that ice age have caused flooding? Sure, but it would be periodic and local.
It would be well worth my time to see a debate with both sides respectfully speaking for themselves. It is too easy to talk past each other and make less progress than is possible by having both sides in the same place at the same time to compare thoughts and evidence, with respect and honesty. I bet both sides would learn something and probably come away from the experiemce with mutual respect and increased compassion.
This is the series that got me out of the church with no questions or doubts.
Love these LDS Discussions! It's like being in Sunday School Class but hearing the truth for a change. 🤗💝
WORD
preach it
Like Sunday school But hearing the truth for the first time*** lol.
It’s actually more interesting than Sunday school and we’re all super interested.
The Truth is stranger than fiction for sure.
Exactly
It’s all lies too bad you can’t figure it out!
Y’all helping non-Mormons like me. Critical thinking is HUMANITY-UNIQUE and I celebrate you all.. thank you for the discourse.
Never Mormon here - these videos are SO important to me to understand more contextual history and even theological concepts within the church that I would never know. These sessions are so fascinating to me and I’m so thankful for this podcast and all the amazing, thoughtful, intelligent, eloquent, talented hosts that share their research and commentary.
Right, me too, it’s really helpful when I encounter a practicing Mormon, to understand what they are referring to, and to make comments that might get them to see that other Christian’s do not believe Joe’s crap.
@@justkiddin84 check out the other episodes of Mormon stories podcast too. Lots of great critical thinking skills to help people disassemble all religious indoctrination, not just Mormonism. Especially bible based religions. Check out the episodes with Dan McClellan and David Bokovoy.
@@playmeacountrysong I’m watching! Love this channel!
Utterly fascinating.
These LDS Discussions have been so helpful to me with making progress in therapy. I left about 8 years ago and just in the last few months have I really been digging into, for lack of a better word, the lore of the LDS church. So many of the challenges that I'm tackling in therapy directly tie to the toxic teachings of the LDS faith. These videos are extremely valued and I appreciate how Mike has been able to present things in a logical and gentle way. There is no shaming occurring and that is so healing. Thank you so so much for all you do.
You are in the right place. I have been free and clear for a lot of years . . . this would have made everything so much easier. I'm glad they are here for those who need them now.
Just remember that you're much better educated than Smith ever was & you're honest. All you ever wanted was to be told the truth & now through John, Mike & Nemo you have good people telling you that truth & treating you with the respect that you deserved from the beginning. You're in a good place with this channel.
Mike , Nemo and John, the history you discuss and dissect is like opening a Encyclopedia ..
I love it, you Guy’s are just great.
We accepted so much weird stuff growing up in the church. Why wouldn’t they just tell us THIS weird thing too? I felt so lied to when I found out.
YES! Betrayed, humiliated, and disappointed. How could I have been so foolish? 😮
I think a lot of the people teaching us were drinking from the same KoolAid pitcher. They probably had not even given a second thought with a Critical mind/eye in their lesson preparations. Just followed the manuals. 🤔🤔🤔
@@patricianoel7782You weren’t foolish. Naive, perhaps, but if you were young you were presented with this world view by people you knew and trusted and loved. As many people around the world are indoctrinated into controlling groups of all sizes and types.
Blaming yourself and demeaning yourself as ‘a fool’ is part of that training. First, respect and love you, know that you are equal to every other person. Forgive yourself for past mistakes.♥️✌️
@@justkiddin84Well spoken. Bravo 👏
@@donaldlee6699 Probably something like, Ramirez.
LDS discussions are your absolute best content
2nd that!
What I always wondered is, how does the Church explain the discrepancy between The Articles of Faith stateing that we are not responsible for the sins of Adam and Eve, but Native American and Black people are responsible for the sins of Ancestors from thousands of years ago? I am an ExMo and part Native American. The Church never cold tell me why my family is inferior and Western European White people are better.
Exactly racism always was the exception of generational curses.
You’re looking at the basis of religion itself. Make believe answers to questions that people of the time didn’t have the capability of answering in reality. And it just so happens to be helpful if those made up answers make your “tribe” look good and justified in their actions.
Spot on, Joseph Smith was a racist. I cannot figure out how anyone could be a Mormon, knowing the racism in the Book of Mormon.
With the verses, in the book of mormon, about, being white and delightsome.
And the other verses, that says that the dark skinned people were cursed.
And Brigham Young actually would have the church cut off the heads of any dark skinned people when they had interracial marriages, it was supposed to be a blood atonement or something like that. How evil he and Joseph Smith were, it’s a straight up Cult.
Using religion to "other" groups different than you (especially racism) is an age old thing. It's pretty gross.
@@OuttaMyMind911 that is true but the racism is one of the few things that was included in All of Joseph Smiths versions of scriptures. All of them. It's disgusting!
I am 69yrs old and left the church in my 20s. Im grateful my father was not a member because it gave me another world view besides Mormonism. There is something so weird about referring to people as mormon or nonmormon when active in the church, such black and white thinking. Like nobody else matters. Even at a young age i felt uncomfortable when members would testify " this is the true church and the only church". It took me years to undo the harm the teachings did to me and as a female i will never forget the interviews with my bishop that were so inappropriate. Thank you for this podcast because i dont know any recovering mormons besides my siblings.
I appreciate your comment and it makes me hopeful that my kids have the same perspective that you do one day.
I appreciate all the connections you point out. It’s really a house of cards. Recently I heard someone summarize a meeting with LDS Missionaries who couldn’t answer her questions. Her conclusion was that Mormons believe in their feelings over facts and evidence.
Absolutely! Mormons don’t want you to confuse them with the facts.
For me, the biggest betrayal happened not because I had believed a load of bullsh*t, but because I had based so much of my world view, self-concept, and emotional wellbeing off of believing a load of bullsh*t. I was totally humiliated, and it wrecked my self-esteem for a few years. I had to relearn basic emotional regulation because I was never taught how to self-soothe independent from Mormonism.
I learned the hard way never to hold an ideology or authority figure too sacred to question. It's an excellent life lesson, but boy did it suck to learn!
I relate to everything you said word for word it was really tough.
and still is.
Well put. 💚
I freaking love you people :) thank you so much for this series Mike, Nemo, and John
The coffee issue really is a small example of the bizarre mental gymnastics that it takes to reconcile all of this.
Brewed is bad unless it’s herbal, yet coffee and tea are herbs, hot chocolate is fine with caffeine (and soda) but not coffee. There is no winning if you try to apply logic.
And ‘what is a horse’ got me, too. No horses anywhere but Eurasia 6,000 years ago.
Those things are for group control.
This LDS Discussions playlist I feel like is one of the most important resources for anyone leaving or considering joining the church. It is nuanced, it is respectful, it is very well researched and informed. In fact, I have decided I won't talk with anyone in the church about the reasons I left until they have watched at least one episode from this series.
I was baptized into the church when I was 9 or 10 years old always had questions but always got shrugged off ,I'm now 65 years old and stumbled on to this program and have learned more than ever I'm grateful to y'all for this program .the biggest thing I'm grateful for is letting go guilt I felt for many years ,and learning to listen to what my thoughts are telling me, and what the spirit leads me to do ,
This is my absolute favorite content! My favorite team! I will be sad to see it end. This series has been so helpful to me and others who I know that were turned off by other truth claim podcasts, but were able to listen with open minds to you. I'm very grateful.
The lds discussions series is some of my favorite content ever released by mormon stories. I hope mike continues to come on as a guest!
This was probably my all-time FAVORITE MormStories/LDS Discussions Episode by far. Y'all nailed the monumental task of addressing some of the most impactful aspects of Mormonism in a very simple, direct, and intelligent way. Love all of you working together to make this content. You have helped me heal and grow so much in these past many years of my post-Mormon journey and given me the strength to step into my authenticity and personal strength. I wish that I could give you each a duffel bag stuffed with legally acquired stacks of currency for all of your time and efforts. Thank you 🙏💚
Ty so much all three of you and everyone else who's been a guest or worked behind the scenes on this podcast. I was a Mormon for a couple of years in my teens and have been interested to learn more about it. I've been an atheist for about 14yrs. My 10 yr old came to me scared to tell me that he believes in God (influence from his best friend) . I've supported him in whatever beliefs he might develop but also try to offer an understanding of science and history so he can come to his own conclusions with all the facts. He has listened in occasionally while I've watched this series and is appalled at LDS history. He is LGBTQ+, his brother is biracial, he knows about consent and hates lies. I've been able to pepper in information about other religions too and that he should be wary about organizations that tell him how to live.
There's many Mormons in central California where I live and this RUclips channel has really helped me understand some of the struggles and diverse points of views of former mormon and lds people.
Thank you for what you do!
I’ve enjoyed this series with Mike. He gets to the heart of these topics and lays it all out in an easily understood way. He talks really fast and I like that too. I also like how John pumps the brakes every once in awhile and asks good clarifying questions. I also love Nemo’s commentary along the way. Thanks guys.
A heart surgeon not believing in the fundamental building blocks of biology is absolutely terrifying.
"CARTOONISH" may be my favorite word spoken today to describe Mormonism. I have absolutely LOVED this LDS Discussions series. I've watched every single one, and I can't wait to go back and rewatch the flood and tower of babbel episodes. I come from Evangelical Christianity and I have deconverted from that cartoon as well. It's hard to pick a favorite LDS Discussions episodes here, but if I have to, it probably is the flood one. It was the one that helped me in my deconversion journey.
Keep up the good work guys
I've left the church but have still felt trauma bonded and defensive of the church. This entire series has been so helpful in me making those necessary detachments. You were so kind and cautious and made it possible for me to engage while still questioning my beliefs. Thank you so much.
This episode would make a very good book to publish. Just a simple handbook that former members can use in their discussions to point to each point raised in discussion.
Just a side note. I recently started reading/studying the New Revised Standard Version of the Old Testament, New Testament and a few Apocryphal books. I have to say this version is such a joy to read. I feel I’m reading good literature in my common language. I agree much is myth and story but I did learn so much about humanity and an amazing all power God.
It is great to have corrected translations now, so we have more correct bibles! I still like the King James for certain sections because of the Shakespeare era poetics of it. ♥️✌️
As a never mormon I have been following mormon stories for a while now and I have enjoyed this series, in fact I’m a bit upset that I have caught up. I was raised catholic and this has made me think about my own ingrained ideas. I love the banter between the three of you and I hope there will be many more episodes of this series
I'm Catholic too
All day I've had Praise to the Man stuck in my head. I sang it to my 29 year old daughter (who I did not raise in the church) and her response, in her usual witty sarcasm was, "Yeah, cuz that's not culty at all!"
Just listening to JD talk about how when you're raised in it, it is very hard to see all the ways it just isn't right or true. It's harmful to children to indoctrinate them so thoroughly but the church really has that down to a science (possibly the only science they trust).
Thanks all for the hard work on this series. I can't imagine the hours it took, but I'm sure you and your families deserve a vacation. 😊
After 40:00, thank you for pointing out Spencer W Kimball’s involvement in the Indian Placement program.
The apologetic that dark skin didn’t mean Native Americans, Polynesian, or Tongan is top tier mental gymnastics.
That man should not have a building named after him on BYU campus.
Thanks to Mike, I really loved all the LDS Discussions ! What a kind and gentle man 🤗
This series has been amazing and I hope that Mike and Nemo would be willing to come back as new information becomes available.
Trying find the series, how can I find it in sequence?
Thank you all so much for these episodes. They helped me so much. ❤
That Harry Potter metaphor was so spot on! Love everything about this channel
The amount of time Mike has put into these discussions is evident! Thanks, Mike!
The stuff at 58:00 hits home for me, because as a Jewish person, The Book of Mormon absolutely sounds like fanfiction with Hebrew-sounding names and places, but without any actual Jewish cultural context.
Didn't know that one of the mormon apologetics was the Deicide Charge, though! Doesn't surprise me though because Christians have been saying we killed him for... milennia.
FANFICTION! Yes! What a beautiful analogy. 1,000 huzzahs to you!
This is a summary of painful truths. Thank you for your work and compassion ❤
😂😂😂 “Sharpened his chops”. I haven’t heard anyone say that in years. That was surprisingly funny, John. 👍😆🙏
wonderful outstanding work!!! Thank you very much for such a great episode.
My favorite thing John said: 'What do words mean?' 😂🤣
Talking about how progressive Mormons go about excusing the lies.
The thing about horses! Ping!
This has been the best of a fantastic set of discussions. I appreciate both your scholarship and presentation,
Nemo! Great content
My favorite thing Mike said is, “They’re just dudes!”
Love this panel! ❤🎤👏🏾Mormons are painted in the corner.
2:33:45 this example reminds me of the Office episode when Michael Scott's paper company is unsustainable and going broke, so he asks the accountant to "crunch the numbers again" in hopes that it will change the outcome.
New here!! I'm so happy i found you!!
I, like so many others, have found this series to be so important in my faith journey. Is there going to be more in 2024? I really hope so.
The embedded young earth creationism is absolutely fatal. Joseph locked things down so air tight that mormonism can't breathe, and now its untenable as literal truth.
Just as the literalism / inerrant Bible and translation branches of the mainline church painted themselves into a corner. Such that YECs have to misexplain science, built giant arks etc and use so much money and time defending Genesis 1 - 11..... The only reason they are (mostly) not also flat earthers is that heliocentric globe earth was established before the mid 1800s literalism movement began, yep all fresh in Joe's time.
44:15 If dark-skinned people are considered a curse, according to Mormon religion, then what is the purpose of missionaries trying to convert people in Brazil, Jamaica, Ghana, Nigeria, South Africa, etc.? And why would any African-American consider joining LDS?
Also...according to The Book of Mormon, when a Black person repents and becomes righteous, his or her skin will be lightened.... Has this EVER been documented? Has ANYONE ever changed his or her dark complexion with...repentance...?
Here’s another implication: if the church is true, eternity as an exalted woman would suck. As a heavenly mother, you’d just be pumping out billions of spirit babies, to NEVER see most of them again after their earth trial, since the majority of them aren’t making it back to the celestial kingdom. Worse yet, none of those lost children would even know your name. At least the inhabitants of outer darkness know about their “loving” Heavenly Father, who loves us so little that he won’t even tell us about our mother.
This was the nail in the coffin for my wife on her faith journey. She realized that she would never want to be a heavenly mother, seeing how she’d be locked away and unheard of. On top of that, she’d have to share me with other wives if I ever got them, and she’s not too thrilled about that idea. Essentially, she says if Mormon heaven is real, that’s the last place she wants to be in the next life.
I totally agree!
I just started watching this video and I was immediately reminded of a quote I heard many times in church that all truth can be circumscribed into one great whole. Here's one of many similar statements:
"With God our Heavenly Father, all truth, wherever found or however apprehended, is circumscribed into one great whole. Ultimately, there are no contradictions, no quarrels, no inscrutable paradoxes, no mysteries." (Howard W. Hunter)
Apologists can't have it both ways. If an apologetic argument being proposed to explain away a truth claim problem is the truth, then it must nicely fit in with all other apologetic arguments being used to explain away other truth claims. If they don't fit together nicely into the "truth", which is "one great whole" with "no contradictions, no quarrels, no inscrutable paradoxes, no mysteries", then those which don't fit nicely together into the "one great whole" of "truth" must be untrue.
Yep! 😂 Serious mental gymnastics with all logic thrown away are required.
Thank you so very much for these excellent factual intellectual proven well documented videos.
>wake up
>see that new LDS discussions episode uploaded
Yep today will be a good day
Funny how you struggle to see it until you step away and then it’s a tsunami of reality and you feel ridiculous for not being able to let yourself see it before!
I had no idea we had British Mormons! Thank you for all of your discussions I’ve learnt so much and I’m sorry for people stuck between a faith and truth!
Lots of love from V in the UK xx
I'm also British & it was news to me when I first found out. I had this naive idea that you had to be in Utah surrounded by the Mormon faith & raised in the LDS to be a believer. Obviously not, my excuse is that I'm in Liverpool & maybe they're a bit thin on the ground up here as I've never seen hide nor hair of them. I do find the whole thing fascinating I found the BoM to be like some second rate fantasy book with so many laugh out loud moments that I kinda enjoyed it. It was also good reading your comment now I know I'm not the only Brit who enjoys this channel & this discussion series.
@@johnmichaelson9173 I was completely naive to it also! Have family in Liverpool but can also add didn’t seem to have any Mormons in the Northamptonshire area or now the Isle of Wight! I feel I’m watching fantasy/sci-fi aswell it’s extremely fascinating but also sad at some of the pain people endure through this religion.
Good to know another Brit watching aswell :) V xx
Have you never had the missionaries around? Or seen the very American style white steeple churches? Look up BBC iplayer for Mormons are coming - for a view of missionary training and wider experiences.
Read: “Sapiens” by Y.N.Harrari. New and wonderful book about the history of humankind. Enjoy! 🎉
Thanks!
This series are helping me to deprogramming my mind off of Mormon stuff.
Nemo is absolutely right. I come for the Mormon, but I stay for the banter.
The section of “assuming the church is true” ,so stating doctrine as truth, is more damaging than pointing out what isn’t true. No joke.
This was awesome!!! Even the dogs concur!!!
Re: the slide about polygamy at around 50:00
Joseph Smith's evolution on polygamy reminds me of evolutions people go through when they want to do something but know it will be potentially disruptive to their social status and relationships.
-"The Thing is bad, and I am very interested in it, just to learn how bad the Thing is."
-"The Thing is complex/more nuanced than people think." AND/OR
-Continuing to say the Thing is bad in public but private experimentation with the Thing.
-"The Thing is good, and the people involved are okay, but *I* would never."
-Publicly admitting to do the thing along with excuses (i.e. "I only do it because I *have* to.")
Of course, the difference between Joseph Smith and most people is that most people don't claim to be speaking for god. Particularly, Joseph Smith reminds me so much of many polyamory bros (god love em). I know there's lots of motivations for him to found Mormonism (financial, existential re: his brother's death, bringing his family together, ego), but I wonder if he would have founded it if he felt comfortable living some kind of public polyamorous life. (But also... I know he was also a sexual predator, and that's not the same.)
Mike is amazing! 😊❤
“The church shall change its doctrine and policies, but not because of the public” thus saith the church survey.
I had to 'rewind' to watch the Doritos incident again 🤣🤣🤣🤣
The book of Mormon's primary reason is to authenticate the restored gospel and of Christ mission. It is problematic when we need to say it's not a real historic text, but to borrow a phrase it's "meta-true" - it undermines the authority of the church
Thanks guys, and Mike w/love.
As a former Mormon, I left before knowing most of the stuff you guys have brought up. I hope that current Mormons who are having doubts will listen to what you have to say with the thought that it might possibly be true.
Great episode ❤️
Can someone please explain to me, in BOM, Moroni ch 10 verse 9 ...The Word of Wisdom was practiced in days of the lamanites an the nephites, Joseph gave the revelation to them from OUR TIME , thats amazing, absolutely staggering.can you believe this Sh...Throw away them magic mushrooms.
This was excellent!!! Thank you so very much!!!🎉
I would appreciate if you mentioned the Mesoamerican Archaeological evidences scholarly here. For example how we dont see any form of Egyptian tied to the Mixe-Zoque language family. Or any heiroglyphs of pre-Christ Christianity, or simply stone boxes with metal plates. Keep up the great work tho!
31:25 speaking as an ex-Catholic in my experience we were taught Moses and the Exodus happened in some way even though I thought I could believe Adam and Eve were metaphorical (but if so where did Original Sin and the Fall come from, and without that what do we need Jesus for?) and what you mentioned here is hugely problematic for most of Christianity in general except maybe the most liberal denominations, main reason why I abandoned the religion entirely is because if most of the Bible is ahistorical then most of the doctrines make no sense and you don’t really have much left as in my experience even most liberal Christians and Catholics will draw the line at the Resurrection and Jesus’ divinity, once I rejected both of these I knew I wasn’t a Christian in any meaningful sense anymore.
Learning about the extra problems Mormonism has to deal with further convinced me that at worst apologetics is basically the art of defending the indefensible and the fact that the religion didn’t fall apart on day one is proof that people will more than gladly spend the rest of their lives and even die for a “false” religion, for us apostates of other groups we sometimes get asked why would the Apostles die for a lie if Jesus didn’t rise from the dead but again Mormonism shows that people die for a lie all the time, the fact that it’s not as small as Scientology and has millions of followers (and has influence over a whole state) is an indictment against the veracity of religion in general if you ask me.
Granted even as an atheist the Bible still has some value to me as I now see it as mostly as a collection of mythological narratives, some of which nay have been based on real events but you can’t take them as face value (like with the Iliad which may have been based on an actual Trojan war since Greek mythology is still pretty relevant to us, even I got some things out of the BoM and the Qu’ran when I decided to read both of them as unconvinced as I was of their truth claims), and that’s why this year I was more than happy to put up nativity scenes all over the place and there’s some other Catholic practices I still do mostly because they’re tied to my cultural background as a Mexican immigrant (and I guess I’m technically a Lamanite according to Mormon lore).
However my impression is that even without the polygamy groups like the FLDS are known for Mormonism is still a pretty literalist denomination as you’ve shown and some might consider it somewhat fundamentalist in some aspects, I get the impression that most churches take the Old Testament stories as historical in some way and the ones that don’t are the exception and not the rule.
1:07:35 in my case I've also heard some apologists use the mitochondrial Adam and Eve and refer to a book by a guy named Joshua Swamidass (haven't read it) as further proof that somehow a literal Adam and Eve can fit with what we know about human evolution, I really think part of the reason why the Creationist movement exists is because so many doctrines fall apart, not just for Mormonism but also most Christian denominations, if there was no literal Fall as that's what finally broke my shelf to say the least. 1:38:05 our Catholic equivalent to FAIR also does this when trying to salvage a literal Adam and Eve and I didn't think of this implication, the churches that do accept evolution but also believe in a literal pair we all came from basically have to come up with pre-Adamites because otherwise we're all products of incest and creationists will say that the first generations were somehow preserved from genetic defects.
When did the 15 come to the knowledge that the church is a sham? Before becoming a general authority or at the beginning of their assignment? Or are some of them still oblivious to the scam?
Great episode. The percentage is even smaller though unless we’re talking about different numbers. Given there are 17 million members (most of which are inactive) and there are 8 billion people in the world, 17million/8 billion = .002% What a loving god that is to bless such an insignificant amount of people with his true gospel. Could he really not come up with a better plan?
Wonderful episode, I’m Evangelical Christian and I’m a little confused, sorry! Are all three of these guys active LDS members? Because after this episode I don’t see how they could be!
excellent show, thanks 🎉❤
I was listening to this podcast (and it's fantastic) - but I just had to come on RUclips to watch Nemo polish off his bag of Doritos! Thanks for the laughs guys!
I was taught that only baptized Catholic go to “heaven”. Infants are baptized approximately at 6 weeks old.
Polygyny is the marrying of one man to many women. Polyandry is the marrying of one woman to many men. Polygamy is the more general term that applies to both sexes in the same terms - one person married to many people simultaneously. I keep hearing the term polyandry being used by those who have left the church. POLYGYNY is the correct term for what the early LDS and current FLDS practice. It would be good to start correcting the misuse of this term in these conversations.
Knowledge isn't interfering with Lucifer's free will. How would it interfere with yours then? Christianity itself is a diminishing blend of (Confucius 500 BC & Greek "Eusebeia" 320BC), with the scapegoating of Jesus as a mediator transition.
I sometimes wonder about Hinckley. Was he willingly or knowingly ignorant? Did he just support traditional or orthodox Mormonism, or was he smart enough to know that if he had any other standpoint that it would cause major divisions in the Church?
@@randyjordan5521I agree since the Church had phenomenal membership growth under his leadership. I pose the question because I think that Mormon "prophets" privately know that the official story cannot be accurate. Among each other i.e. the 15 who lead the Church, they use this esoteric language with each other. There is a manipulation of the language. When they say they pray or have revelation they do not mean it literally. The members believe that they mean it. In spite of it all, the 15 goes to Church, prays and actively fulfills temple ordinances. The 15 realize at some point that if they were to look into the history too deeply, they themselves would discover some unsettling truths. I am sure the Pope is no different.
It almost seems like there are two Churches. There is an inward and an outward appearance. There is a Church for the members and then there is one for the leadership.
I guess I am just spit balling here.
Curious about those Doritos! Do they contain MSG in the UK like in the U.S.?
I just LOVE how John butchered the definition of a fanfic. He's like the smart but not-too-hip exmo grandpa I never had 👏
It was so cute.
You rant is my rant! Yes!
I think if the Mormon Church took the approach that the Book of Mormon was a narrative evolving fiction that gives their theological view, it would make more sense. I feel like many famous theologians and authors write fiction that fleshes out theological viewpoints. But the claim that the Book of Mormon is truth invalidates it, and prevents genuine revision. And there is no bar for fiction to not be inspired. The Mormon Church literally painted themselves into a corner.
This is the essential question everyone must finally ask themselves...What if the church is NOT true?
1:36:45 these kinds of apologetics that form out of desperation and necessity are just the most slimy apologetics.
Imagine if Mormon was just a community without religion and all they did was support each other.
It seems so incredible that only now are people waking up to the reality
Nearly 5000 views but only 400 like i dont understand
i dont have 3 hours to watch an episode. why are these not condensed?
new here - why does he say it's May in the beginning...? Says uploaded 11/10. Is it just an old episode that they didn't upload?
Here is something I never understood as a kid growing up Mormon.
“I’d like to bear my testimony, I know this church is true, I know Joseph smith was a true prophet…..”
What about Brigham young?? We have Brigham young university, he was the 2nd prophet!!! Was he a true prophet?? Can’t say that with as much confidence can they? Because they don’t know anything about Brigham young, none of us do. @mormonstories, would love to see a lds discussion series featuring Brigham young.
You could say the same about young earth creationism--if it is correct, it upends ALL of science, and possibly other things as well. This has tremendous implications for the nuclear power industry, because if what we've been conventionally taught about the age of the earth is wrong, and the earth is only a few thousand years old, then it also means that we've got it wrong about how long it takes for radioactive substances to decay into harmless substances. It's not just a matter of age. After all the Bible clearly states that the sun goes around the earth, and it strongly implies that that earth is flat. We'd have to rethink almost everything!
Doesn’t the Book of Mormon say that there were people in the americas long before what historians have previously stated up until recently. And didn’t a glacier dominate North America and while melting cause flooding? Honest question?
No. The Book of Mormon account claims two main groups traveling in boats from the “Old World” to the “New World”. It opens with the Lehi/Nephi group traveling around 600 BC. That group gets established and finds remnants of an earlier group (Jaradites), that claim to have traveled at the time of the “Tower of Babel”, which some Biblical scholars might place about 4000 years ago. Current scientific estimates place human population moving into the “New World” about 12 to 15 thousand years ago, near the end of the last ice age. This is long before what the Book of Mormon suggests.
Would that ice age have caused flooding? Sure, but it would be periodic and local.
@@OuttaMyMind911 thank you for the clarification.
Where do I find the first episode ?
It would be well worth my time to see a debate with both sides respectfully speaking for themselves. It is too easy to talk past each other and make less progress than is possible by having both sides in the same place at the same time to compare thoughts and evidence, with respect and honesty. I bet both sides would learn something and probably come away from the experiemce with mutual respect and increased compassion.
I have 2% Neanderthal DNA and am very proud of it!