He has lots of great quotes about religion. and reason. Including something to the extent of “I do not fear death. I have been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born and was not unconvinced in the slightest. Why should I be after I die?” I always wondered if Sagan derived the title of the book: “Billions of Billions” from it. I know he was speaking of stars and universes, but he addresses belief in quite a few-if not all-of his books. He and Druyan quote a lots of people in their books. But I lost my copy of that one to mold at my old place, so I can’t look. (I’m replacing about 200 slowly via Thrift Books.)
I was brought up by true Christian parents, who sent me to a Christian Day school for my first few years of elementary school. I learned much about the Bible and it was a great platform for the rest of my life to keep learning. I eventually ran into a friend who was also Bible-based, and he told me that he felt led to minister to Mormons, and the easiest way to do it is to invite the Mormon missionaries into your house when they knock on your door. (the same can be said about Jehovah Witnesses). This friend and I spent an entire summer during our early 20s making it a sport to call out to the Mormon missionaries when we saw them on the street and have serious discussions with them. It became obvious early on that these poor "missionaries" did not even understand what their church believed in. Eventually this friend and I got our hands on copies of Doctrine and Covenants and other Mormon teaching from one of the missionaries. And we also got our hands on some sermon recordings from Dr. Walter Martin, and read a lot of books on cults. We were more than a bit freaked out by what we learned.
I like how the guest, "Mike", compares Mormonism to a life-long treasure dig towards the end of the podcast. His point reminds me of a quote from the RUclipsr TheraminTrees, "The shrewdest fraudsters don't sell us fake medicine for real aches and pains. When our ailments persist, the game's up. The shrewdest fraudsters sell us fake illnesses and imaginary defects. Then the game can endure for a lifetime." This quote is shown at the beginning of his video "imaginary defects - when dogmas label us flawed".
Haven't been a consistently active member since I was about 20. The doctrine never left me and has kept me captive and wondering "what if it's all true" or "what if I really do end up being cast into outer darkness" etc. It wasn't until January of this year (12 years later!!) that I've even allowed myself to explore "anti-mormon" discussion. What was so profound to me in this episode is the disclaimer that this discussion and the presentation of this research is NOT an anti-mormon echo chamber but rather a compassionate effort to create INFORMED CONSENT. That is not something gifted, especially , to those who were baptized as children such as myself. Especially being the oldest of 6 girls. Not being baptized wasn't an option. I had to "set a good example" to my younger sisters. This is a line of thinking that still traumatizes me today. My life nor my choices could never be my own. Anyways, thank you so much for this content! I am looking forward to learning more and HEALING.
I am not Mormon but I am fascinated by religion and cults and I absolutely adore this channel. Thank you for telling the truth. I love how John gets so excited he totally nerds out and I am here for it❤🤭
It’s now my journey in the fall of 2023. This series is profoundly helpful. Jenn’s tears are my tears, but we will only be strengthened by the truth. I thank everyone contributing to the knowledge here from the bottom of my open heart.
I can’t begin to say how much this all tears me apart. Every new revealed fact about Joseph being a fraudulent scumbag makes me wish I had never heard of the church…much less been born into it.
I feel this. It is such a hard emotional journey. Sending love. I am happy to report the crushing emotional pain does start to fade, and I am feeling happy again. I hope your journey takes you to a happier place too.
I am going back to the beginning to review. This is an outstanding series. I have learned so much. Thank you. I knew so little even going on a mission. I was in leadership and thought I knew a lot. It is great to have this resource.
As an inactive member of the church , I have known for a long time Joseph Smith was a treasure digger . But , I always understood that to mean he and his friends sought out and dug for treasure . Kind of like a person on the beach searches for gold with a metal detector or how people search the ocean floor for sunken ships with treasure. I had NO IDEA that Joseph Smith was hiring himself out and peeping through his stones and claiming to see buried treasures. This totally changes my views. I feel like such a fool hearing these talks, but at the same time I can feel years of guilt lifting from me . I have felt such fear that it’s been ME losing my testimony and MY fault I no longer believe. The church is good at keeping you doubting yourself. I’ve been inactive well over five years and just now have allowed myself to do some real fact checking on my concerns bout the church . It’s been enlightening .
Excellent!👏 Excited to hear more from Mike, who is brilliantly organized in his approach. Love the visuals. Gerardo is also a very knowledgeable co-host. "The covenant path is a lifelong treasure-dig!" 🤯 Jenn adds heart and empathy. ❤
I've seen most of the LDS Discussions videos, and I'm going back through and starting from the beginning and going chronologically. I just want to say that I really appreciate this research and these discussions. I don't think the discussion is always 100% wrt being unbiased and dispassionate, but please know that John, Mike, and co. have encouraged me to ask questions I never thought to ask, that have dug into doubts that I pushed away for many years, just like what is described at the beginning of this video. I'm commenting here because I - twenty-something, she/her, RM, BYU alumna, never married, haven't been to church since 2018 - broke down in 2022 and admitted to myself that I'm an exmo in all but name. I contacted a trusted TBM and told her what I was going through, and asked her to promise me that she would not tell her family or anyone in my family that I had essentially left the church. I then asked her if she'd be willing to go over some church history and gospel questions I felt like I couldn't discuss with anyone else. Among those topics was polygamy-related subjects such as Fanny Alger, and treasure digging. I'm a data scientist by education and profession, and so I fixate on details, citation, and the validity and presentation of data of all kinds. On the subject of treasure digging, the most that we could agree on was that the research is hard to find (as in, I struggle to find primary sources when I go looking for them, as I continually run into BYU or lds.org thinkpieces and outdated academia instead, which shouldn't surprise any of us). Mike, I appreciate your efforts to include snippets of primary sources in the video and especially in the essay on your website. I found myself wanting more cited primary sources, especially with quoted and summarized historical research that doesn't seem Joseph Smith-centered (like the reasons that treasure digging failed, for example). What frustrates me is how apologists and the church at large rely on the difficulty in finding primary sources both to deny ugly alleged truths, to obfuscate facts, and to enable themselves to quietly claim no fault when misinformation about church history abounds. This is a particularly strong frustration for me because the trusted TBM continually encouraged me to stay away from discussions such as this video because of the lack of properly cited information. But from what I've been able to stomach of Fair Mormon discussions, their own information is also sparsely cited, and the sources are also not reliable. I felt seen when Mike talked at the beginning of this video about wanting to use good sources, because church apologists tend to use poor ones. I feel the same way and it makes me wish that more of us had the time and resources to construct academia-worthy arguments of the sort that apologists claim that the other side doesn't have, when apologists themselves don't have it either. It kind of drives me crazy how poorly-documented and sparsely-digitized church history really is..... because if it was, a data scientist like me could easily trawl textual data, create models, create visualizations.... The other conclusion that myself and my trusted TBM could agree on was that if the treasure digging SCAM - the scam, specifically, knowingly done and perpetuated by JS - is true, and IF it is ALSO true that JS is a prophet, then it must needs be that JS was a very messy and imperfect person as well as a prophet. This is also frustrating to me because that ends all further discussion of the church being true, since every single negative point can be met with "JS was imperfect AND a prophet." And so then what is the point of searching, questioning, and praying? It creates a compelling character at the center of a relatable narrative - a scammer, liar, and thief who IS chosen by god, who turns around and has to convince the world of a true supernatural thing, like the archetypal drunken priest or pickpocket turned believer (I read a LOT of fantasy novels, lol). But the church will never run with that picture outright in everyday sunday school until maybe someday in the future, when they're backed into a corner that they won't be able to get out of otherwise. My trusted TBM is much more knowledgeable of church history and doctrine than the average TBM, as is her husband, and their conclusion, as well as my previous seminary teachers and knowledgeable TBMs like them, is just that. JS was a true prophet, AND he was imperfect and an "unreliable narrator" of sorts. This is why TBMs can know this lesser-known information about JS and church history, and yet not have their faith shaken. It's damning, however, that this above all is what makes the church seem so unshakably true to TBMs. It's impossible to use even an avalanche of negative claims as a means of disproving the church because the church spins the fallibility of man and their records as a means of kicking up just enough doubt to make individual members feel guilty for their own doubts. They'll never find the treasure, but if they don't find it in this life, it'll for sure be in the next one. I love the heart of Mike's discussion here - the principles of treasure digging are the principles that keep butts in church pews. Promises forever delayed, that don't need to ever be fulfilled. This hits close to home because one of the main things that drove me to finally questioning the church was me feeling that I had exhausted all my resources and energy is trying to gain answers to my prayers, to no avail. I think the most frustrating thing of all is that I don't think anybody in the modern church is "in on the grift." Which throws more doubt on whether there ever was a grift in the first place. My trusted TBM talked with me about how she wishes the gospel weren't taught in such a way that testimonies rely on JS and the BoM (which is a WILD thing to say when you think about it). But it really kind of DOES, when you start really looking into church history the way Mike has done. Forgive these ramblings - it helped to write it out, somehow. Thank you for all the work you do!
I loved the way that this episode was laid out. Exactly what I was looking for as a transitioning Mormon. Going through all the rebuttals everywhere else were overwhelming and just everywhere. (Fair Mormon especially, because they are trying to hide everything still, I’m sure) and Mike’s research was perfectly laid out and so well said. Love the slides. Thanks you guys!!!! Love Mormon Stories.
MIKE!!! Mike gives excellent and well timed reminders that helped me contextualize JS's time period. Big thanks to mike! ❤ For example: The 1826 trail weren't prosecuting the celebrity as we know him now, but rather just another dude named Joseph Smith. (also @ 1:56:15 textbook "Jinx!" 😂 )
TBMs are too entrenched and are only interested in protecting themselves from the truth, not in finding it and adjusting their beliefs to embrace it. The thing that got the ball rolling was when I embraced the scary truth that I don’t care where the truth leads me, even if it upends all my beliefs. She clearly isn’t ready.
@LDSDiscussions how possible do you think it might be that some of the incriminating documents and testmonies that we have about treasure digging are still Hofmann's forgeries?
Whatever. I could have done without the first 45 minutes. Seriously minute 43 was when I was ready to listen. Hiring an editor to abridge the content gives you two audiences from the same amount of content.
So much good information. I love long form interviews. I put the headphones on and get so much done and learn so much at the same time. Please keep them coming.
Never-Mormon here, but love Mormon Stories, thank you so much for facilitating engaging discussions and giving folks a platform to share their stories. I'm curious to know if you guys have reached out to Micah Wilder to be on the podcast, he has an incredible story of converting to Protestant Christianity while on his mission, and just published a book about it titled "Passport to Heaven." I'd love to see him on the show! Love you guys! -David Sundman (my wife Rachel and I share a RUclips subscription).
"Mike" with LDS Discussions is doing incredible work. He fills a need of someone putting in massive work WITHOUT compensation. I have 0 issue with getting paid to bring value to the world like the Open Stories Foundation and others do, but talk about another testament hehe. Great job Mike! Thank you for bringing your A game and giving the apologetics a run for their money (no pun intended). I look forward to watching your future episodes
i could literally listen to this all day!!!! i love the deep dive!! so facinating! thank you Mike, John and Gerardo!!!! this reminds me of early 'year of polygamy' episodes where lindsay goes into each of josephs wives.
Mike and John. Excellent work and a GREAT space provided for honest critical thinking. I appreciate all you guys are doing. Thank you. What your doing is helpful to Soo many
These are great! I would recommend Breaking them down even more. You could take each aspect of these slides and done a whole in depth episode on each one.
1:55:42 John, I think I see what you're saying about the Gospel Topics Essays being intentionally obscure, because they certainly aren't core curriculum in Sunday School or missionary discussions. But based on my time at BYU, I know there are some efforts to educate members about the essays. One of the required religion classes, “Foundations of the Restoration,” includes several of the essays as reading assignments. And I think that non-BYU young single adults get similar attention to these topics in Institute classes. I considered myself lucky to take the class from Brother Godfrey who is one of the head historians over the Joseph Smith Papers, and to his credit he did not shy away from the difficult topics and he seemed very sympathetic to the nuanced viewpoints expressed by some students. Even so, it is my opinion that the Gospel Topics Essays do not adequately acknowledge the skeletons in the closet. This video series is WONDERFUL.
Bless you all. Thanks for literally helping me piece together the puzzle that is Mormonism. I've been able to heal and establish a proper relationship with religion in respect to my relationship with our Creator. Thank you!
This episode was great! The stories are interesting and they're what got me hooked on MS but the truth claims series will be a nice mix of subject matter and I personally am more drawn to this type of content (but please don't stop doing the stories either!). The length was also great in my opinion. An hour isn't enough time to really dig into anything but four hours is a bit heavy. This is good middleground.
Great episode! Thank you. I kept thinking of the Liahona at the start of the book of mormon and how that also connects to this early peep stone folk magic. In terms of feedback, i love the content. I would say there is a fair amount of repetition and beating a dead horse. But, that also could be a function of multiple presenters discussing and digesting the info in real time. So, you know, it's probably fine and possibly unavoidable. Again, great information.
You're so right about creating a library of truth claims. The internet is going to bring down mormonism and scientology. They've always told members not to watch or read things that are contrary to doctrine, but I don't see young people obeying as much.
This reminds me of a very important lesson I learned from my high school Latin teacher. She was telling us that one of the reasons there was so much persecution against early Christians is because the sacrament "eating the body and blood of Christ" sounded to the Romans a lot like cannibalism. And once you look at it through that lens, it really makes sense that they would not want that legal.....
This was really Interesting. it explains so much of how this religion began and continues. It is always your fault things didn’t work out. You are never good enough. You didn’t pray hard enough. You had bad thoughts. The list is endless.
I love hearing this “historical account.” Nobody really knows what the hell happened but it’s fun and refreshing! Love your enthusiasm and the how serious you all are about it! Go you!!
Maybe this is weird, but I'm hardly even sad about Carah leaving. I love her and her stuff. She was great before, during and I think she will be great after her time on Mormon Stories. Same with Mormon Stories. I love Jon, Gerardo and Jen. They will be great together. The only thing I'm sad about is the suffering that seems to be happening.
Thanks so much for this, Mike & Gerardo & John & Jenn. Setting the topic in the magical worldview of the time, and breaking down treasure-digging into its component parts, suddenly illuminated for me why there is such a "salvation by works" aspect to the church, and that the work is actually not the hardest part: taking the blame is.
The Joseph Smith Foundation is amazing. It was founded by James Stoddard III, my former MTC teacher and onetime coworker, before he went off to do the foundation work full time. I think of anyone in my life, James was a spiritual giant, showing more devotion and faith to the church and the words of the prophets (his favorites were Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, and Ezra Taft Benson) than anyone else I knew, and inspired me to get books by these prophets and study them on my mission. So when I experienced my faith crisis a couple years ago, I reached out to him and bought a few of their faith crisis books. The gist of the books were that Leonard Arrington deceitfully gained access to the church archives and then managed to convince some leaders to put him in charge. He produced a history book that did not go through correlation before publication and was deeply troubling. He was completely responsible for convincing church leaders that the Salamander Letters were real. He spawned an entire generation of "progressive" historians who are telling a completely different story than the faithful narrative that Joseph Fielding Smith produced, and now, even after Arrington got the boot, the "progressive" historians have fully infiltrated the church history dept. They have an entire book on the Seer Stone vs the Urim & Thummim, taking place in a courtroom setting where they weigh the evidence of both translation tools and show that it was clearly the Urim & Thummim that was used to translate the Book of Mormon. What I'm not sure of is how they were able to square the idea that Russel Nelson demonstrated the translation process using a stone in the hat in a video. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and an unbroken line of 'prophets, seers & revelators' came all the way down to Russel Nelson, then why doesn't Russel have either the discernment or direct revelation from God to know that Joseph really used the Urim and Thummim? This ultimately led me to reject the logic in their arguments. If modern prophets and apostles can't detect and root out false doctrine, then they're pretty useless. My absolute favorite work of Hannah, is her research into why Joseph Smith's polyandry was not only ok, but expected! See, much of Joseph Smith's life mirrored God's life. When Mary was on her way to visit her cousin Elizabeth, God met her, was married to her and then impregnated her with Jesus! And there's a historical account of Joseph teaching this! ldsanswers.org/how-could-joseph-smiths-polyandrous-marriages-be-explained/ The comments at the end are amazing too. So many people felt the spirit confirm the truthfulness of this account!
@@mormonstories If you want me to do an analysis of the faith crisis book series, I'd be happy to review them again and work up an outline for a possible show.
What Jen said about victim blaming is soooo spot on and even backed up biblically with the book of Job when Job’s “friends” blame him for his suffering, all the while God said Job was righteous and what happened to him had nothing to do with Job’s lack of faith nor any fault of Job. Instead of blaming, we should be praying.
Legendary episode! Regarding the Benjamin Franklin quote around the 52:00 mark - this also reminds me of people who do "technical analysis" on Wall Street to predict stock behavior. When they're right, they consider themselves to be a genius (and they are rarely right). When they are wrong, however, they never criticize the principles behind chartism. Instead, they beat themselves up because "I didn't believe in my own graphs." It's an interesting psychological concept, and it's been with us for a very long time. It is abusive when religious leaders take advantage of our tendency to cling to incorrect theories - especially if they use this flaw as leverage to guilt us into doing irrational things.
In history 1:56 it says "I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger." Is that not Joseph denying being a treasure hunter? I don't see how the LDS church could affirm he is a money-digger and affirm History 1:56. Does money digger have some niche meaning that's different from treasure hunter, or perhaps they think he's not hinting at the "prevelant story" just being a rumor?
Contrary to what Mike says, Dan Vogel does not suggest that that Constable De Zeng's bill for "10 miles travel with Mittimus to take him (Joseph) was to "effectively kick Joseph Smith out of the county and take him to Joseph Knight's property." Vogel's opinion is that after the hearing at which Joseph had been found guilty Joseph unlawfully left the county and traveled to Joseph Knight's home and that the "10 miles travel with mittimus to take him" was for De Zeng to travel to Knight's home in Colesville to arrest Joseph and bring him back to South Bainbridge.
I haven’t been a member of the church for around 4 years. I ask myself how did I ever believe any of this?!! It’s so far fetched and out there but that is all I ever knew . Thank You for this channel,’
I respect that Mike and his family don't throw beliefs in each other's faces because that's a luxury not offered in my family. it's either you believe or you don't exist unless they're sending the local missionaries to your new house after each move.
The part about the Salem dig is fascinating because it not only shows that was Smith still a treasure digger at heart, but it implies that he was a _true believer_ in his brand of folk magic. The church, and by extension him personally, was in dire financial straits. As far as I know, and as far as you all described here, there was no rational possibility of this trip fixing his problems--no secondary scam where he actually profited from the failure. Running off to Salem to find a hidden treasure only makes sense as a remedy for his money problems if he sincerely believed that a) buried treasure is real and that b) he actually had the ability to find treasure that no one else could. It's an interesting window into his mindset.
And it show unequivocally that he wasn’t a prophet. He was using god and fake revelation as a cover and to give credibility to his folk magic endeavors.
Sometimes liars come to believe their own lies, which makes others see them as sincere. I've seen a modern version of treasure digging (international wheeling and dealing, chasing imaginary millions), and it ruined lives, including mine. People can believe anything if they want to.
Another possibility, however, is that he was pursuing another angle (scam) that, for obvious reasons, would not have been frankly stated in the official "revelation" that made it into D&C 111. In his other treasure-hunting schemes, the angle was to get 'investors" to believe that there was treasure to be found. That's how Joseph Smith made money from those endeavors. It seems plausible (if not highly likely) that the Salem treasure-hunting expedition was aimed at attracting investors willing to gamble on getting some of that treasure. What we get in D&C 111 is the "revelation" (equivalent to Joe's seeing treasure in the peepstone when he was doing secular treasure hunting). We don't get any details about the failure to find treasure and Joseph Smith would not have wanted posterity to know any details concerning either his failure to get the desired investors or, if there were such investors, the details as to how they lost all of their money as a result of believing in Joseph Smith. What actually happened in Salem is conspicuously absent from the historical record...as completely as if it had been intentionally scrubbed, erased and suppressed with great thoroughness. Here's a revelation that made it into the canonized scripture of the Church, but the most important part of the story is missing. The italicized synopsis provided by anonymous editors for Section 111 simply tells us that "it became apparent that no money was to be forthcoming" without mentioning any relevant details, and the revelation itself provides no explanation. On the other hand, in the "revelation" it states that Smith's crew "should make acquaintance with men in this city". To me that sounds like Joseph Smith was desperate for money and decided to see if he could just run his former treasure-hunting scam in a different city, far away from Palmyra (where everybody already knew who he was). He wasn't really looking for hidden treasure. He was looking for new dupes in a city where he was unknown, and from where he could make a clean getaway if necessary. I guess there is a possibility that Smith was a "true believer", but I tend to doubt it. There is too much circumstantial evidence that indicates that he was knowingly scamming people. And I don't think he really believed that he was seeing buried treasure when he looked at his rock. Even if he initially thought that he had some special intuition about such things, my guess is that he would have realized that it was all BS after the first dozen or so failures to find anything of value.
When you present this factual history to most TBMs, they say, “all those people who testified to that stuff were just trying to destroy Joseph’s character. Satan was against him from the beginning and tons of people made up lies about hjm”. When people don’t want to open their eyes, they will justify or excuse or disbelieve anything and everything Joseph ever did that is not faith promoting. Sooooo frustrating!
Always just great, kind, well mannered people from boss to all guests & employees that make it all even more enjoyable & real👏🏽👏🏽 kudos to the kindness to caray @nuancedhoe
It just now occurred to me something that was said several times in lessons about tithing. The gist of it was, "don't you think that GOD could just show the prophet where a vein of gold was located." The idea was "God doesn't NEED your tithing. YOU need to obey." But, now that I think about it, it also had the faint aroma of Joseph's historically-documented treasure digging.
I just want to say I completely agree with the comments near the 40 minute mark. I've been out of the church for 5 years afer being a life long member. I sucessfully ignored the truth for most of the time. I only started to examine the church more closely after spending time learning about scientology. The first mormon stories episode I watched was the Mike Rinder interview.
It was a fun fact and a source of pride that Joseph received the plates on my birthday. I was also aware that my birthday was always on the last day of summer or the first day of autumn. I didn't put two and two together until Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. That my birthday falls on the Autumnal Equinox is a fun coincidence, but the JS side of the equation is no coincidence.
Regarding the Boston dig, there was a story titled "The Haunted Hogshead" that was described as a Yankee Legend featuring the New England cultural figure-Brother Jonathan (Joseph Smith was a Jonathan character) published in The Juvenile Forget Me Not, and The Humorist (and reprinted in newspapers), in 1830, that mentioned Captain Kidd burying treasure in Boston just before he was hung.
That is fascinating. Going to have to bunt down those issues and stories. J.S. must have had inordinate amount of charisma to sway so many people. Perhaps a degree of some sort of hypnotism was also used. Even more extraordinarily, that even today thousands of people remain under the spell. This is a great series, I vote for many many more episodes.
listening to this now in november 2023 and hearing john say "even if this ends up being like 40-50 episodes" lol. 46 so far, lets see how many more they do.
No matter what Joseph Smith did, he can not save us. He did nothing for us, no sacrifice, no atonement. No bleeding, he didn't carry a cross down the street. Nothing he did has value for our eternity.
When I read diaries of family members who joined The Church in the very early days in New York it is mentioned time and again Joseph Smith's personal charisma. It was Him as a person that sold these ideas. One of my ancestors refused medical care and would only see these kind of mystical practioners (he also had 32 children but never more than three wives at a time was the joke). I think you could see that with John D. Lee and into these modern times with members who favor oils and alternative medicine. This is a part of who we are as a people and we should stop pretending otherwise
Such a fantastic episode!! Your names will be had for good and evil throughout history😉 But you will definitely go down in history for these important things you are putting on the record! #doingGodswork;)
Listening to Mormon Stories helps me heal from childhood trauma, even though I am not mormon.
😂😂😂😂
Good to hear that.
They def can help who’s dealt with trauma
That's good 👍
"It's easier to FOOL people than to convince them that they have been FOOLED." (Mark Twain)
He has lots of great quotes about religion. and reason. Including something to the extent of “I do not fear death. I have been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born and was not unconvinced in the slightest. Why should I be after I die?” I always wondered if Sagan derived the title of the book: “Billions of Billions” from it. I know he was speaking of stars and universes, but he addresses belief in quite a few-if not all-of his books. He and Druyan quote a lots of people in their books. But I lost my copy of that one to mold at my old place, so I can’t look. (I’m replacing about 200 slowly via Thrift Books.)
I was brought up by true Christian parents, who sent me to a Christian Day school for my first few years of elementary school. I learned much about the Bible and it was a great platform for the rest of my life to keep learning. I eventually ran into a friend who was also Bible-based, and he told me that he felt led to minister to Mormons, and the easiest way to do it is to invite the Mormon missionaries into your house when they knock on your door. (the same can be said about Jehovah Witnesses). This friend and I spent an entire summer during our early 20s making it a sport to call out to the Mormon missionaries when we saw them on the street and have serious discussions with them. It became obvious early on that these poor "missionaries" did not even understand what their church believed in. Eventually this friend and I got our hands on copies of Doctrine and Covenants and other Mormon teaching from one of the missionaries. And we also got our hands on some sermon recordings from Dr. Walter Martin, and read a lot of books on cults. We were more than a bit freaked out by what we learned.
definitely. the human ego is an interesting thing.
I just want to vote yes for continuance of this series. 😊
Never-Mormon but I really enjoy listening to Mormon Stories! Love learning why Mormons believe what they believe. Can't wait to learn more!
I like how the guest, "Mike", compares Mormonism to a life-long treasure dig towards the end of the podcast. His point reminds me of a quote from the RUclipsr TheraminTrees, "The shrewdest fraudsters don't sell us fake medicine for real aches and pains. When our ailments persist, the game's up. The shrewdest fraudsters sell us fake illnesses and imaginary defects. Then the game can endure for a lifetime." This quote is shown at the beginning of his video "imaginary defects - when dogmas label us flawed".
Well said 👌🏻
I love the personal, emotional clarity Jenn brings to the discussion. It is priceless.
She shows us the emotions we should feel if we were not so jaded by life.
Haven't been a consistently active member since I was about 20. The doctrine never left me and has kept me captive and wondering "what if it's all true" or "what if I really do end up being cast into outer darkness" etc. It wasn't until January of this year (12 years later!!) that I've even allowed myself to explore "anti-mormon" discussion. What was so profound to me in this episode is the disclaimer that this discussion and the presentation of this research is NOT an anti-mormon echo chamber but rather a compassionate effort to create INFORMED CONSENT. That is not something gifted, especially , to those who were baptized as children such as myself. Especially being the oldest of 6 girls. Not being baptized wasn't an option. I had to "set a good example" to my younger sisters. This is a line of thinking that still traumatizes me today. My life nor my choices could never be my own. Anyways, thank you so much for this content! I am looking forward to learning more and HEALING.
Thank you, Jenn. Your disappointment and outrage are exactly what a lot of people have felt finding out about all the lies
Yup, that's exactly how I felt. I kept putting things on the shelf until the shelf broke.
I am not Mormon but I am fascinated by religion and cults and I absolutely adore this channel. Thank you for telling the truth. I love how John gets so excited he totally nerds out and I am here for it❤🤭
It’s now my journey in the fall of 2023. This series is profoundly helpful. Jenn’s tears are my tears, but we will only be strengthened by the truth. I thank everyone contributing to the knowledge here from the bottom of my open heart.
I can’t begin to say how much this all tears me apart. Every new revealed fact about Joseph being a fraudulent scumbag makes me wish I had never heard of the church…much less been born into it.
We can’t change that we were born into it, though we can prevent further trauma from it
Same
I feel this. It is such a hard emotional journey. Sending love. I am happy to report the crushing emotional pain does start to fade, and I am feeling happy again. I hope your journey takes you to a happier place too.
Johns "waiting for the live to start" expression gets me every time hahaha
I am going back to the beginning to review. This is an outstanding series. I have learned so much. Thank you. I knew so little even going on a mission. I was in leadership and thought I knew a lot. It is great to have this resource.
As an inactive member of the church , I have known for a long time Joseph Smith was a treasure digger . But , I always understood that to mean he and his friends sought out and dug for treasure . Kind of like a person on the beach searches for gold with a metal detector or how people search the ocean floor for sunken ships with treasure. I had NO IDEA that Joseph Smith was hiring himself out and peeping through his stones and claiming to see buried treasures. This totally changes my views. I feel like such a fool hearing these talks, but at the same time I can feel years of guilt lifting from me . I have felt such fear that it’s been ME losing my testimony and MY fault I no longer believe. The church is good at keeping you doubting yourself. I’ve been inactive well over five years and just now have allowed myself to do some real fact checking on my concerns bout the church . It’s been enlightening .
Excellent!👏 Excited to hear more from Mike, who is brilliantly organized in his approach. Love the visuals. Gerardo is also a very knowledgeable co-host. "The covenant path is a lifelong treasure-dig!" 🤯 Jenn adds heart and empathy. ❤
I've seen most of the LDS Discussions videos, and I'm going back through and starting from the beginning and going chronologically. I just want to say that I really appreciate this research and these discussions. I don't think the discussion is always 100% wrt being unbiased and dispassionate, but please know that John, Mike, and co. have encouraged me to ask questions I never thought to ask, that have dug into doubts that I pushed away for many years, just like what is described at the beginning of this video.
I'm commenting here because I - twenty-something, she/her, RM, BYU alumna, never married, haven't been to church since 2018 - broke down in 2022 and admitted to myself that I'm an exmo in all but name. I contacted a trusted TBM and told her what I was going through, and asked her to promise me that she would not tell her family or anyone in my family that I had essentially left the church. I then asked her if she'd be willing to go over some church history and gospel questions I felt like I couldn't discuss with anyone else. Among those topics was polygamy-related subjects such as Fanny Alger, and treasure digging.
I'm a data scientist by education and profession, and so I fixate on details, citation, and the validity and presentation of data of all kinds.
On the subject of treasure digging, the most that we could agree on was that the research is hard to find (as in, I struggle to find primary sources when I go looking for them, as I continually run into BYU or lds.org thinkpieces and outdated academia instead, which shouldn't surprise any of us). Mike, I appreciate your efforts to include snippets of primary sources in the video and especially in the essay on your website. I found myself wanting more cited primary sources, especially with quoted and summarized historical research that doesn't seem Joseph Smith-centered (like the reasons that treasure digging failed, for example).
What frustrates me is how apologists and the church at large rely on the difficulty in finding primary sources both to deny ugly alleged truths, to obfuscate facts, and to enable themselves to quietly claim no fault when misinformation about church history abounds.
This is a particularly strong frustration for me because the trusted TBM continually encouraged me to stay away from discussions such as this video because of the lack of properly cited information. But from what I've been able to stomach of Fair Mormon discussions, their own information is also sparsely cited, and the sources are also not reliable. I felt seen when Mike talked at the beginning of this video about wanting to use good sources, because church apologists tend to use poor ones. I feel the same way and it makes me wish that more of us had the time and resources to construct academia-worthy arguments of the sort that apologists claim that the other side doesn't have, when apologists themselves don't have it either. It kind of drives me crazy how poorly-documented and sparsely-digitized church history really is..... because if it was, a data scientist like me could easily trawl textual data, create models, create visualizations....
The other conclusion that myself and my trusted TBM could agree on was that if the treasure digging SCAM - the scam, specifically, knowingly done and perpetuated by JS - is true, and IF it is ALSO true that JS is a prophet, then it must needs be that JS was a very messy and imperfect person as well as a prophet. This is also frustrating to me because that ends all further discussion of the church being true, since every single negative point can be met with "JS was imperfect AND a prophet." And so then what is the point of searching, questioning, and praying? It creates a compelling character at the center of a relatable narrative - a scammer, liar, and thief who IS chosen by god, who turns around and has to convince the world of a true supernatural thing, like the archetypal drunken priest or pickpocket turned believer (I read a LOT of fantasy novels, lol). But the church will never run with that picture outright in everyday sunday school until maybe someday in the future, when they're backed into a corner that they won't be able to get out of otherwise.
My trusted TBM is much more knowledgeable of church history and doctrine than the average TBM, as is her husband, and their conclusion, as well as my previous seminary teachers and knowledgeable TBMs like them, is just that. JS was a true prophet, AND he was imperfect and an "unreliable narrator" of sorts. This is why TBMs can know this lesser-known information about JS and church history, and yet not have their faith shaken.
It's damning, however, that this above all is what makes the church seem so unshakably true to TBMs. It's impossible to use even an avalanche of negative claims as a means of disproving the church because the church spins the fallibility of man and their records as a means of kicking up just enough doubt to make individual members feel guilty for their own doubts. They'll never find the treasure, but if they don't find it in this life, it'll for sure be in the next one.
I love the heart of Mike's discussion here - the principles of treasure digging are the principles that keep butts in church pews. Promises forever delayed, that don't need to ever be fulfilled. This hits close to home because one of the main things that drove me to finally questioning the church was me feeling that I had exhausted all my resources and energy is trying to gain answers to my prayers, to no avail.
I think the most frustrating thing of all is that I don't think anybody in the modern church is "in on the grift." Which throws more doubt on whether there ever was a grift in the first place. My trusted TBM talked with me about how she wishes the gospel weren't taught in such a way that testimonies rely on JS and the BoM (which is a WILD thing to say when you think about it). But it really kind of DOES, when you start really looking into church history the way Mike has done.
Forgive these ramblings - it helped to write it out, somehow. Thank you for all the work you do!
I loved the way that this episode was laid out. Exactly what I was looking for as a transitioning Mormon. Going through all the rebuttals everywhere else were overwhelming and just everywhere. (Fair Mormon especially, because they are trying to hide everything still, I’m sure) and Mike’s research was perfectly laid out and so well said. Love the slides. Thanks you guys!!!! Love Mormon Stories.
MIKE!!! Mike gives excellent and well timed reminders that helped me contextualize JS's time period. Big thanks to mike! ❤
For example: The 1826 trail weren't prosecuting the celebrity as we know him now, but rather just another dude named Joseph Smith.
(also @ 1:56:15 textbook "Jinx!" 😂 )
Jenn is a good fit given the sincere and serious nature of these videos. I appreciate her humility, vulnerability, and quiet honesty.
This was a quality discussion. I tried to correct Ann Stoddard on a few things relating to JS's reputation, but to no avail.
Imbalance is a threat to good scholarship.
TBMs are too entrenched and are only interested in protecting themselves from the truth, not in finding it and adjusting their beliefs to embrace it. The thing that got the ball rolling was when I embraced the scary truth that I don’t care where the truth leads me, even if it upends all my beliefs. She clearly isn’t ready.
@LDSDiscussions how possible do you think it might be that some of the incriminating documents and testmonies that we have about treasure digging are still Hofmann's forgeries?
One of the best episodes I’ve listened to in a long time. Perfect length on episode 😀
Whatever. I could have done without the first 45 minutes. Seriously minute 43 was when I was ready to listen. Hiring an editor to abridge the content gives you two audiences from the same amount of content.
So much good information. I love long form interviews. I put the headphones on and get so much done and learn so much at the same time. Please keep them coming.
Loved today! Mike’s work is huge and easy to join the dots! “More please?!!!!!” Love to all from never mo Aussie
I’m loving this so far! Please keep doing these episodes with Mike/LDS Discussions!
I LOVE THIS! I really like the grouping of the evidence and the powerpoint pages with pictures and videos. Please keep these types of episodes coming!
I'm so grateful for this amazing series. Thank you Mike and John.
Never-Mormon here, but love Mormon Stories, thank you so much for facilitating engaging discussions and giving folks a platform to share their stories. I'm curious to know if you guys have reached out to Micah Wilder to be on the podcast, he has an incredible story of converting to Protestant Christianity while on his mission, and just published a book about it titled "Passport to Heaven." I'd love to see him on the show! Love you guys! -David Sundman (my wife Rachel and I share a RUclips subscription).
"Mike" with LDS Discussions is doing incredible work. He fills a need of someone putting in massive work WITHOUT compensation.
I have 0 issue with getting paid to bring value to the world like the Open Stories Foundation and others do, but talk about another testament hehe. Great job Mike! Thank you for bringing your A game and giving the apologetics a run for their money (no pun intended). I look forward to watching your future episodes
Thank you all for this series! I’m going back to listen to the whole series. Very informative!
Glad you like them!
Another vote for continuing the series!
i could literally listen to this all day!!!! i love the deep dive!! so facinating! thank you Mike, John and Gerardo!!!! this reminds me of early 'year of polygamy' episodes where lindsay goes into each of josephs wives.
I can't wait to hear Jen's Mormon story if she chooses to share. 💕
This was absolutely amazing !! Want more 👍🏼
I would love to see more episodes on truth claims with Mike.
So much important information! Thank you LDS Discussions for your efforts.
I love how John mentioned Kara's channel name and gave her a shout out and thanked her.
Only feedback from me is that it was fabulous! Having text and images really helps to reinforce, and add to, the discussion.
I can’t believe I used to do my testimony as a kid that included this conman.. wow thank you for the information ❤
Mike and John. Excellent work and a GREAT space provided for honest critical thinking. I appreciate all you guys are doing. Thank you. What your doing is helpful to Soo many
Much appreciated!
Excellent. So well done and with such sincerity and grace.
I shared your channel to all my mormon friends and believe me, they are upside down...keep up the good jobs guys...you are a real BLESSING
Great episode! Looking forward to hearing more from Mike. Thank you.
This was a great episode. I listened on podcasts but came here to comment that I would love to heat Mike go over the other topics in future episodes!
These are great! I would recommend Breaking them down even more. You could take each aspect of these slides and done a whole in depth episode on each one.
Definitely a good discussion that I’d like to hear more of. My donation just processed and said it just needs to be verified on your end.
Love this episode and the idea of the series! Yes, please! Also, the analogy of the religion being a metaphorical treasure dig was spot on.
Very fair, clear approach to this subject. Thank you! To be continued!
Mike did such a great job.
This is ironically a godsend. Thank you soooo much!!!!
1:55:42 John, I think I see what you're saying about the Gospel Topics Essays being intentionally obscure, because they certainly aren't core curriculum in Sunday School or missionary discussions. But based on my time at BYU, I know there are some efforts to educate members about the essays. One of the required religion classes, “Foundations of the Restoration,” includes several of the essays as reading assignments. And I think that non-BYU young single adults get similar attention to these topics in Institute classes. I considered myself lucky to take the class from Brother Godfrey who is one of the head historians over the Joseph Smith Papers, and to his credit he did not shy away from the difficult topics and he seemed very sympathetic to the nuanced viewpoints expressed by some students.
Even so, it is my opinion that the Gospel Topics Essays do not adequately acknowledge the skeletons in the closet. This video series is WONDERFUL.
Thanks for the feedback Chris Sessions.
Bless you all. Thanks for literally helping me piece together the puzzle that is Mormonism. I've been able to heal and establish a proper relationship with religion in respect to my relationship with our Creator.
Thank you!
This episode was great! The stories are interesting and they're what got me hooked on MS but the truth claims series will be a nice mix of subject matter and I personally am more drawn to this type of content (but please don't stop doing the stories either!). The length was also great in my opinion. An hour isn't enough time to really dig into anything but four hours is a bit heavy. This is good middleground.
Yes I want to see Mike more often, thank you!
I love this series! And I love the long format.
Great episode. Cant wait for more truth claims episodes.
Perfect everything. Can’t wait to hear more.
Great episode! Thank you. I kept thinking of the Liahona at the start of the book of mormon and how that also connects to this early peep stone folk magic. In terms of feedback, i love the content. I would say there is a fair amount of repetition and beating a dead horse. But, that also could be a function of multiple presenters discussing and digesting the info in real time. So, you know, it's probably fine and possibly unavoidable. Again, great information.
You're so right about creating a library of truth claims. The internet is going to bring down mormonism and scientology. They've always told members not to watch or read things that are contrary to doctrine, but I don't see young people obeying as much.
This reminds me of a very important lesson I learned from my high school Latin teacher. She was telling us that one of the reasons there was so much persecution against early Christians is because the sacrament "eating the body and blood of Christ" sounded to the Romans a lot like cannibalism. And once you look at it through that lens, it really makes sense that they would not want that legal.....
This was great. Not too long, however long it takes to get the info out is good with me!
Jenn's perspective is so perfect for this series. Love her and proud to be a MS donor!
You wouldn’t say that today.
This was really Interesting. it explains so much of how this religion began and continues.
It is always your fault things didn’t work out. You are never good enough. You didn’t pray hard enough. You had bad thoughts. The list is endless.
I love hearing this “historical account.” Nobody really knows what the hell happened but it’s fun and refreshing! Love your enthusiasm and the how serious you all are about it! Go you!!
Maybe this is weird, but I'm hardly even sad about Carah leaving. I love her and her stuff. She was great before, during and I think she will be great after her time on Mormon Stories. Same with Mormon Stories. I love Jon, Gerardo and Jen. They will be great together. The only thing I'm sad about is the suffering that seems to be happening.
I hope Carah's tongue heals well from her biting it for so long. JK 😁❤️
Thanks so much for this, Mike & Gerardo & John & Jenn. Setting the topic in the magical worldview of the time, and breaking down treasure-digging into its component parts, suddenly illuminated for me why there is such a "salvation by works" aspect to the church, and that the work is actually not the hardest part: taking the blame is.
The Joseph Smith Foundation is amazing. It was founded by James Stoddard III, my former MTC teacher and onetime coworker, before he went off to do the foundation work full time. I think of anyone in my life, James was a spiritual giant, showing more devotion and faith to the church and the words of the prophets (his favorites were Joseph Smith, Joseph Fielding Smith, and Ezra Taft Benson) than anyone else I knew, and inspired me to get books by these prophets and study them on my mission. So when I experienced my faith crisis a couple years ago, I reached out to him and bought a few of their faith crisis books.
The gist of the books were that Leonard Arrington deceitfully gained access to the church archives and then managed to convince some leaders to put him in charge. He produced a history book that did not go through correlation before publication and was deeply troubling. He was completely responsible for convincing church leaders that the Salamander Letters were real. He spawned an entire generation of "progressive" historians who are telling a completely different story than the faithful narrative that Joseph Fielding Smith produced, and now, even after Arrington got the boot, the "progressive" historians have fully infiltrated the church history dept.
They have an entire book on the Seer Stone vs the Urim & Thummim, taking place in a courtroom setting where they weigh the evidence of both translation tools and show that it was clearly the Urim & Thummim that was used to translate the Book of Mormon. What I'm not sure of is how they were able to square the idea that Russel Nelson demonstrated the translation process using a stone in the hat in a video. If Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and an unbroken line of 'prophets, seers & revelators' came all the way down to Russel Nelson, then why doesn't Russel have either the discernment or direct revelation from God to know that Joseph really used the Urim and Thummim? This ultimately led me to reject the logic in their arguments. If modern prophets and apostles can't detect and root out false doctrine, then they're pretty useless.
My absolute favorite work of Hannah, is her research into why Joseph Smith's polyandry was not only ok, but expected! See, much of Joseph Smith's life mirrored God's life. When Mary was on her way to visit her cousin Elizabeth, God met her, was married to her and then impregnated her with Jesus! And there's a historical account of Joseph teaching this!
ldsanswers.org/how-could-joseph-smiths-polyandrous-marriages-be-explained/
The comments at the end are amazing too. So many people felt the spirit confirm the truthfulness of this account!
Fascinating comment. This comment should be its own MS episode. Thank you Ron.
@@mormonstories If you want me to do an analysis of the faith crisis book series, I'd be happy to review them again and work up an outline for a possible show.
Good luck Carrah! Jen you are a beautiful woman &
Herardo is awesome!
Looking forward to more episodes!
What Jen said about victim blaming is soooo spot on and even backed up biblically with the book of Job when Job’s “friends” blame him for his suffering, all the while God said Job was righteous and what happened to him had nothing to do with Job’s lack of faith nor any fault of Job. Instead of blaming, we should be praying.
Legendary episode!
Regarding the Benjamin Franklin quote around the 52:00 mark - this also reminds me of people who do "technical analysis" on Wall Street to predict stock behavior. When they're right, they consider themselves to be a genius (and they are rarely right). When they are wrong, however, they never criticize the principles behind chartism. Instead, they beat themselves up because "I didn't believe in my own graphs."
It's an interesting psychological concept, and it's been with us for a very long time. It is abusive when religious leaders take advantage of our tendency to cling to incorrect theories - especially if they use this flaw as leverage to guilt us into doing irrational things.
Treasure digging reminds me of today's MLM's. Especially when you hear Benjamin Franklin's quote about it.
What has my life been? Holy crud. I'm just finding this and it blows my mind.
In history 1:56 it says "I went to live with him, he took me, with the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to work for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arose the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger."
Is that not Joseph denying being a treasure hunter?
I don't see how the LDS church could affirm he is a money-digger and affirm History 1:56.
Does money digger have some niche meaning that's different from treasure hunter, or perhaps they think he's not hinting at the "prevelant story" just being a rumor?
Contrary to what Mike says, Dan Vogel does not suggest that that Constable De Zeng's bill for "10 miles travel with Mittimus to take him (Joseph) was to "effectively kick Joseph Smith out of the county and take him to Joseph Knight's property." Vogel's opinion is that after the hearing at which Joseph had been found guilty Joseph unlawfully left the county and traveled to Joseph Knight's home and that the "10 miles travel with mittimus to take him" was for De Zeng to travel to Knight's home in Colesville to arrest Joseph and bring him back to South Bainbridge.
I haven’t been a member of the church for around 4 years. I ask myself how did I ever believe any of this?!! It’s so far fetched and out there but that is all I ever knew . Thank You for this channel,’
My sentiments exactly! If we had each been given all the historical information there sure wouldn’t have been many converts.
I respect that Mike and his family don't throw beliefs in each other's faces because that's a luxury not offered in my family. it's either you believe or you don't exist unless they're sending the local missionaries to your new house after each move.
The part about the Salem dig is fascinating because it not only shows that was Smith still a treasure digger at heart, but it implies that he was a _true believer_ in his brand of folk magic. The church, and by extension him personally, was in dire financial straits. As far as I know, and as far as you all described here, there was no rational possibility of this trip fixing his problems--no secondary scam where he actually profited from the failure. Running off to Salem to find a hidden treasure only makes sense as a remedy for his money problems if he sincerely believed that a) buried treasure is real and that b) he actually had the ability to find treasure that no one else could. It's an interesting window into his mindset.
And it show unequivocally that he wasn’t a prophet. He was using god and fake revelation as a cover and to give credibility to his folk magic endeavors.
@@johnhorner1969 Yes, but we already knew he wasn't a prophet in the way he claimed to be, let alone the way the Mormon church beatifies him now.
@@jdarkwind yes. There are 100 logical ways he can prove Joseph wasn’t a prophet. This is just one.
Sometimes liars come to believe their own lies, which makes others see them as sincere. I've seen a modern version of treasure digging (international wheeling and dealing, chasing imaginary millions), and it ruined lives, including mine. People can believe anything if they want to.
Another possibility, however, is that he was pursuing another angle (scam) that, for obvious reasons, would not have been frankly stated in the official "revelation" that made it into D&C 111. In his other treasure-hunting schemes, the angle was to get 'investors" to believe that there was treasure to be found. That's how Joseph Smith made money from those endeavors. It seems plausible (if not highly likely) that the Salem treasure-hunting expedition was aimed at attracting investors willing to gamble on getting some of that treasure.
What we get in D&C 111 is the "revelation" (equivalent to Joe's seeing treasure in the peepstone when he was doing secular treasure hunting). We don't get any details about the failure to find treasure and Joseph Smith would not have wanted posterity to know any details concerning either his failure to get the desired investors or, if there were such investors, the details as to how they lost all of their money as a result of believing in Joseph Smith. What actually happened in Salem is conspicuously absent from the historical record...as completely as if it had been intentionally scrubbed, erased and suppressed with great thoroughness. Here's a revelation that made it into the canonized scripture of the Church, but the most important part of the story is missing.
The italicized synopsis provided by anonymous editors for Section 111 simply tells us that "it became apparent that no money was to be forthcoming" without mentioning any relevant details, and the revelation itself provides no explanation. On the other hand, in the "revelation" it states that Smith's crew "should make acquaintance with men in this city". To me that sounds like Joseph Smith was desperate for money and decided to see if he could just run his former treasure-hunting scam in a different city, far away from Palmyra (where everybody already knew who he was). He wasn't really looking for hidden treasure. He was looking for new dupes in a city where he was unknown, and from where he could make a clean getaway if necessary.
I guess there is a possibility that Smith was a "true believer", but I tend to doubt it. There is too much circumstantial evidence that indicates that he was knowingly scamming people. And I don't think he really believed that he was seeing buried treasure when he looked at his rock. Even if he initially thought that he had some special intuition about such things, my guess is that he would have realized that it was all BS after the first dozen or so failures to find anything of value.
Thanks a mill for this episode. There were so much I wasn’t aware of! This was super helpful!!!
That was amazing!! So informative!
What a fascinating look at the history of treasure digging and Mormonism!
When you present this factual history to most TBMs, they say, “all those people who testified to that stuff were just trying to destroy Joseph’s character. Satan was against him from the beginning and tons of people made up lies about hjm”. When people don’t want to open their eyes, they will justify or excuse or disbelieve anything and everything Joseph ever did that is not faith promoting. Sooooo frustrating!
Thanks Mike for your work !!
Always just great, kind, well mannered people from boss to all guests & employees that make it all even more enjoyable & real👏🏽👏🏽 kudos to the kindness to caray @nuancedhoe
The pyschopathic leaders of this cult are so heinous and cruel!! Jen is right. It is very emotional stuff!!
It just now occurred to me something that was said several times in lessons about tithing. The gist of it was, "don't you think that GOD could just show the prophet where a vein of gold was located." The idea was "God doesn't NEED your tithing. YOU need to obey." But, now that I think about it, it also had the faint aroma of Joseph's historically-documented treasure digging.
LOVED this. Would like it to go a little slower pace. More! More! More!!!
I just want to say I completely agree with the comments near the 40 minute mark. I've been out of the church for 5 years afer being a life long member. I sucessfully ignored the truth for most of the time. I only started to examine the church more closely after spending time learning about scientology. The first mormon stories episode I watched was the Mike Rinder interview.
Mike and John you should come out with your own "Now You Know" short videos that reference the LDS discussions website for a deeper dive study
That's a GREAT Point about the blood shed happening after the atonement.
It was a fun fact and a source of pride that Joseph received the plates on my birthday. I was also aware that my birthday was always on the last day of summer or the first day of autumn. I didn't put two and two together until Early Mormonism and the Magic World View. That my birthday falls on the Autumnal Equinox is a fun coincidence, but the JS side of the equation is no coincidence.
Great episode guys, loved it...
I just love the episodes with Jen. She really seems like such a beautiful person.
Regarding the Boston dig, there was a story titled "The Haunted Hogshead" that was described as a Yankee Legend featuring the New England cultural figure-Brother Jonathan (Joseph Smith was a Jonathan character) published in The Juvenile Forget Me Not, and The Humorist (and reprinted in newspapers), in 1830, that mentioned Captain Kidd burying treasure in Boston just before he was hung.
That is fascinating. Going to have to bunt down those issues and stories. J.S. must have had inordinate amount of charisma to sway so many people. Perhaps a degree of some sort of hypnotism was also used. Even more extraordinarily, that even today thousands of people remain under the spell. This is a great series, I vote for many many more episodes.
listening to this now in november 2023 and hearing john say "even if this ends up being like 40-50 episodes" lol. 46 so far, lets see how many more they do.
No matter what Joseph Smith did, he can not save us. He did nothing for us, no sacrifice, no atonement. No bleeding, he didn't carry a cross down the street. Nothing he did has value for our eternity.
Hannah Stoddard 1:01:50 does an excellent job articulating why JS's money digging calls his seership claims into question.
I’ve listened to several of LDSdiscussions. This one nails the coffin shut. I should have listened in order 😂😂😂
When I read diaries of family members who joined The Church in the very early days in New York it is mentioned time and again Joseph Smith's personal charisma. It was Him as a person that sold these ideas. One of my ancestors refused medical care and would only see these kind of mystical practioners (he also had 32 children but never more than three wives at a time was the joke). I think you could see that with John D. Lee and into these modern times with members who favor oils and alternative medicine. This is a part of who we are as a people and we should stop pretending otherwise
GOOD ON YOU, DIANE!
@@randyjordan5521
You are correct! I would like to plug Lynn Packer and his podcast. He goes into detail on some of these schemes that target Mormons
@@randyjordan5521
Yup!
Such a fantastic episode!! Your names will be had for good and evil throughout history😉 But you will definitely go down in history for these important things you are putting on the record!
#doingGodswork;)
Brilliant Episode 👏 👏 👏