John Dehlin's Polygamous Ancestry - Part 1
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Learn about Mormon Stories' John Dehlin's polygamous ancestry with us as we discover and uncover mysteries related to his family's polygamous Mormon past.
At Growing Up In Polygamy our mission is to "Create compassion for communities that have been marginalized and abused by their leaders, and to empower those who have left by giving them a platform to share their stories with the world." If you would like to DONATE to this cause you can do so here: donorbox.org/g...
New website is now up! www.growingupinpolygamy.com
Please feel free to reach out to us!
growingupinpolygamy@gmail.com
PO BOX 753072
Las Vegas, NV
89136
I've never left a comment on either MS or y'all's page as I was not raised, nor practice the LDS faith. But I'm an avid follower of both. I'm a person fascinated by religion and genealogy. Just wanted to say I'm stoked to watch this. Thank you all for the vulnerability you show, and for the work you do to help people. Bless y'all.
Aaron. Please comment more! We are strengthened by our friends in and out of the church, doesn’t matter!
@@China-Clay what a lovely response 😊
Me too!!!!
I’m the same as you, I’m just fascinated in how the LDS are intertwined with western United States history!!
Wow joseph smith will be answering to God for all the manipulation his done down here in planet earth.
I love that John can make any podcast long form 😂 Loving this! Can’t wait for the second half.
John! Bring Melissa on as a reoccurring cohost on Mormon Stories! She has the passion and knowledge and she can talk and add valuable insight!
I’m down!!
Yes !
Never underestimate the power your joint sessions have! ❤
What a strong testimony of truth, freedom and humility they are.
People who are still struggling in the Mormon church, the FLDS and the Kingston Clan can draw such hope from listening to your stories and from seeing that you are beautiful ordinary human beings.
Thank you so much!
As someone whose life basically revolves around studying religion, feminism, and history (with my own associated traumas) I just have to say that every time I hear John Dehlin speak (since I discovered him online recently) I'm so blown away but his knowledge, righteousness, and sense of justice. Truly a person who brings such respect, common sense, honesty, and compassion to everything he does. I also love this channel for bringing such a humane perspective to these issues. All around a great video and I'm looking forward to part 2!
❤️🙏
Thank you so much!
First let me tell you how fascinating and interesting this episode is. And yes John, the public is interested… trust me there’s nothing boring about what you talk about. It seems like the more difficult the religion and the more tasks at hand to even make the cut so to speak is like trying to get into a country club, If everyone could afford it and everyone could be vetted what would be special about it. I’m curious as to why the first wife wasn’t legal, perhaps they never worried about legal marriages in those years. I find it sad also that the wives and children were left by the husbands and fathers in order to go on missionary trips. I think the women were more condition during those years just after the Civil War to be left… Similar to military wives perhaps in the current times. Keep up the dialogue the four of you and know that what you produce is educational and interesting.
This was an amazing presentation by John and so great to have Sam and Melissa’s commentary! Has John ever considered doing guest lectures at universities? I bet they would be really popular. Can’t wait for part 2!
2 hrs of you and John Dehlin on a Wednesday!! Is it my birthday or something? 🎉👏🏻
It’s a party here for sure!! Happy Happy!!’
Awww this comment just made my day! =)
Happy happy happy birthday!
❤️🙏
I am a spiritual polygamist against my will. I am sealed to two living women. After two 2 hour discussions with a general authority and two appeals denied... You've done better than I have at escaping polygamy!
I started watching your channel and Mormon stories podcast to get an understanding of the mindset of my 4th and 5th cousins that are descendants of early converts in Preston Lancashire.
I have 4 different branches of siblings that emigrated from Liverpool to Nauvoo and were handcart pioneers. Many were polygamous.
My family stayed in England until the 1950s.
I’m first generation Canadian but think I’m related to half of Utah.
I loved this video! I especially liked how you're naming the women and discussing their lives. We often view geneology through the lens of the male line, since that is where we often take our names, so it's pretty easy. Women's lives, as well as the lives of people who didnt have children, are just as full, and often even more interesting, than men's. Can't wait for part 2!
I'm Catholic from the uk but my goodness i am so invested in this community of online ex Mormons and I dont know why! But I enjoy it
Same here. But I get fed up with his obsession about abnormal sexual behaviours. It’s like he’s swapped one fake religion for the fake religion of wokeism.
@@TP-om8of we should always speak out against pedophilia and child marriage/abuse, why do you say that is woke like it is a bad thing? I appreciate John always speaking up for the most vulnerable in all his conversations.
@@mielimedina3146 Dehlin has a strange obsession with homosexuality, which, bizarrely, he considers a normal and acceptable behaviour, rather than a manifestation of an underlying psychotic disorder. He seems to have exchanged one irrationality (Mormonism) for another (modern secularism).
@@TP-om8of Having been to King's Cross Station in London on Sep 1 amidst over a million crazy Harry Potter fans, I can tell you he is not obsessed. That would look quite different. However, since it was his PhD topic, he might nerd out from time to time, just I would nerd out about my PhD topic, which I will not mention here.
Catholic from Michigan who feels the same! Fascinating rabbit holes everywhere. But these two - Sam & Melissa - seem to have the most valuable insights, experiences and guests. Their guests have been phenomenal- including John Dehlin. I also follow his channel.
I don’t see him oddly obsessed with anything, for those comments.
Loving this interview. My grandpa was born in 1892 and was raised in a polygamous family. I believe his mother was the third wife. We have an audio recording of my grandpa telling his life history and he referred to the other two wives as "Aunt" and then the first name instead of "Mother" and the first name.
Jana duggar is 32. She is oldest daughter. All her sisters who are 18 and up are married with kids. She still lives at home with parents helping to care for neices nephews and her younger siblings. So it happens now days.
Exactly what I was thinking. These older sisters are used like slaves.
I feel sorry for Jana, hope she finds her way out soon. She is such a beautiful talented lady.
I guess oldest daughters dont get to leave. Momma is done having babies. Let Jana live her life. And stop serving her father/family.
Don't be afraid to post these long videos, I have lots of projects to catch up on while watching them! Love this conversation
With education comes wisdom.With wisdom comes understanding that things are not always what we have been told since birth.
John is so passionate.
I’ve found it interesting how he still often uses “we” to refer to mainstream LDS. He’s not a member of the church, but it’s still part of his heritage and cultural background. And his family history. I see some other commenters voice concern about his passion leading him to say more things against the LDS, and I understand that concern. I’m religious myself (generic Christian, raised evangelical), and I can feel a bit taken aback with how some people talk about Christianity. But it’s not like John is just an outsider bashing on things. Clearly he still identifies with his Mormon heritage. And clearly he’s passionate about how woman have been treated-including the women in his family. Seems like for him to “leave it alone,” he’d have to care a lot less about his past, his family, and the community he was raised in. I’m not sure this man is capable of not caring, based on what I’ve seen. :P
Though I’ll admit his approach is less my style than this channel’s usual approach to things.
I say this from the perspective of someone raised evangelical (a term I no longer am sure represents me well). I’ve had to take a hard look at some things myself. Listen to perspective of people hurt by communities I grew up loving. Understand that even the angriest ex-evangelicals still share elements of their religious heritage with me-it’s still theirs. Hear opposing views (some said in more constructive ways than others). Rethink some things. Click away from videos when I’m not ready to hear what they have to say yet. (Or when they’re being extremely unpleasant about how they say it.) Watch or read other material that challenges me and my understanding in a constructive way. Etc.
I agree with most of what you said; you said it well. I do still identify as Evangelical Christian; currently a member of an Apostolic church. I briefly subscribed to Mormon Stories. I un- subscribed after hearing John say that he now believes the "story of Adam and Eve" and the "story of the globe flood" are myths. Something I completely disagree with him on.
I think that religions can also but culture. So LDS is still his cultural background even if not his prescribed faith.
Long time viewer, first time commenter for both of you 😄
I have been able to process SO much of my religious deconstruction from watching you both. I found your channels at the end of 2021, and oh boy, I was NOT expecting 2022 to be the year of getting therapy from two Mormon-related RUclips channels!
I have never been Mormon; I am an Ex-Catholic from a weird combination of a mother who comes from first-American-farmer/preacher Appalachian stock and a father whose Italian-immigrant side was part of cult and Croatian-immigrant side was Catholic. Although my parents were both a weird combination of believing in their prospective views of god and being fairly laid back, I went to Catholic schools from
Kindergarten to completing a master’s program. I was naturally spiritual (and now know I have OCD), so, bing bang boom, having a baby at 26 and my world completely and absolutely shifted. There isn’t a Catholic equivalent to what you have created here, so watching your absolute respect for where you came from, Melissa and Sam, and John’s style of diving into the psychology aspect of deconstruction combined with the personal stories (how I learn and absorb best), has just inspired me so much during a difficult time.
I am inspired to create a scrapbook journal of my own journey to process this further while honoring my history and family. I loved this interview so much, thank you for this content! (And for inspiring and helping this 30-something post-religion-but-still-spiritual person).
💪❤️
This is FASCINATING!! I am riveted by the story of John’s family and am enjoying all the hard work he put into it. I love that you both ask such awesome questions and add a lot to this history. I feel like I am diving into a great interactive novel!!
I’m not Mormon. My family’s heritage is predominantly catholic. My maternal grandfather didn’t believe girls needed to go past 8th grade. (This was the early 1950’s.) My mom worked to pay her own tuition to a catholic high school in Arkansas because her father would not. My sister and I both graduated college.
I'm obsessed with Mormon Stories Podcast, so this was fascinating. You are both great at interviewing. You allow your guest to tell his story, and only step in to keep the narrative flowing. I'm saving this video because it is ground breaking.
John-thank you for your passion for the cause of all women! Misogynists don’t listen to women but sometimes they listen to other men and can waken a bit. Then a bit more. Once in a while enlightenment hits one.
It was soooo lovely to see you two beaming with excitement at the beginning!
This was a very interesting episode and I can't wait for part 2. I am a "never Mormon", but find it fascinating. As to John's comment about how unimportant the women were, the Mormons simply follow the example of the bible, where women's names were hardly ever mentioned. They were simply somebody's wife or somebody's mother and they shall remain nameless.
That is a great point.
I just wanna point out that a woman was the first person to call God by name. And then anytime the course of history was changed it was by a woman, Rachel Sarah Ruth Esther Mary!! I’m certainly not trying to tell you you’re completely wrong in the context of history. I’m just saying from the way I read my Bible as a progressive Christian I’ve always been struck by the women whose names are mentioned are the ones that dramatically change the story. To me women in the Bible are changemakers.
Oh and also if you look at the way Mathews genealogy lays out how Jesus is a descendent of Adam you’ll realize that women’s names are mentioned in the most appropriate places to sort of keep Jesus his lineage to Adam. Not really saying that’s a good thing or a bad thing but it’s certainly a thing.
Also, remember that Judaism from which Christianity derived is fully matrilineal. Quite simply, no one whose mother is not Jewish, is considered Jewish. Even a person whose father is Jewish but not the mom, the only way for such a person to become Jewish is to go through a formal conversion process.
@@meghanmantler9476 these are excellent points and so true. Women are respected in the church today and have been respected by God forever.
It's interesting that John's great grandfather lived and died in Logan. I lived there for a few years, which is why I became interested in Mormonism and its history, and I often walked through the cemetery. It was situated in between the married student housing and the university itself, and it wasn't uncommon for students to walk through it. If he was buried in that cemetery, which seems likely, I would have walked by it on a regular basis. There were many old graves, and I wish I would have thought of it then to look for any families who practiced polygamy. I do remember seeing many large family plots. I wonder now if some of those were the polygamous men and their wives.
Do you happen to know how polygamous families would have been buried? Would the man be buried with his wives next to him, or would it have been more separate? Or maybe it was different in different families.
Thanks for this video! I found it to be very interesting!
I need to go find these tomb stones.
Noooo the video was "to be continued" just as it was getting juicy!! Can't wait till Friday!! ♥️
So excited about this collaboration!!
Veda reminded me of another older sister who hasn't married, lives at home looks after her siblings and plays the piano Jana Duggar another religious cult.
Called a “stay at home daughter”
I'm so impressed with your brilliance and articulation of this topic
Even outside the LDS church, misogynistic attitudes persist in some form today. My daughter (nevermo) has just graduated with a first class honours in Engeering product design still had comments about its suitably for women. Now she is studying for a masters in the subject.
Great episode! John was fired up!!!
I have never been Mormon, but I’m fascinated by the history.
I just wanted to say, although he is not related by blood to his Great Grandmas, John referring to them as such and taking the time to get to know them is so touching.
I'm always thrilled when my favorite RUclipsrs collab! I've never been Mormon, but learning about Mormonism and cults has helped me deconstruct and separate the fundamentalism I was raised in from my Christianity. Anyway, I love that your channel has provided so much personal insight, and now also allowed us to understand John Dehlin's Mormon Story on a whole new level! As I said, my family isn't Mormon. However, I think I have a bit of an insight as to why Karma seems to have reveled in how her polygamous marriage exalted her to a place of glory alongside her father, even at the expense of her siblings being lesser in the afterlife. My grandmother was a Kansas farm girl and one of the youngest of fourteen children. Hers was a loving home, but she was one of many children vying for parental attention. One of her older sisters was like her second mother. Her actual mother was extremely busy not only cooking and caring for her very large family, but also their numerous farm hands during harvest. Her father was even busier. He not only ran a very large farm, but also owned a tractor franchise store. She remembers having to take turns sitting on his lap. Anything that made her stand out, even if it meant another sibling was put down in the process, was a source of pride for her. Each sibling had something that made them special; That sister was the only one with blue eyes, that brother was the extra smart one, etc. They each strove to cultivate something that would make them exceptional in the eyes of their father. They loved their mother, but their father's approval was obviously more coveted. Plus, there was the added grittiness of farm life during the Depression, and then WWII. Their family bond was strong, but there was also a sense of survival and ultimately every-man-for-himself. Even as an adult, she was thrilled that her youngest boy, my uncle, impressed her elderly father with his early walking and intelligence. He stole her father's entire attention out of a room full of extended family. She wanted him to know that her son was the most exceptional out of all of his dozens of grandchildren. This is one of her favorite stories, as she has probably told it to me a hundred times! Sometimes, however, I have found her manner of storytelling disturbingly dispassionate. It's chilling to hear her recount horrifying events in a detached way, as if they happened to someone else. My grandfather (her husband) was orphaned by his mother's suicide. He was a Marine and fought in some of the worst battles in the Pacific Theatre in WWII. He had a similar, callous outlook on life. I was a little scared of both of them when I was little. I knew that they loved me, but there was a steely resolve under everything that confused and frightened me a bit! Anyway, this is a very long-winded way of saying that I think people in past generations had a toughness and a survival mindset that is hard for us moderns to understand. It's not better than how we are, or worse. It's just how people were able to power through losing three children as infants, and then two more of the original fourteen during WWII, like my great-grandmother had to do. Thank you Melissa, Sam, and John for generously sharing yourselves and your rich stories with all of us!
LOL OMG right off the bat, that photo of John with all those young women as his “date” 😂 sooo funny and it’s even funnier because of how much he just sticks out and towers over everyone in the room. Awe, what a cute story. I’m sure those young women had a laugh and a blast with each other and with you that night, you’re a charming and fun guy and that group outing was such a great idea.
These videos are so informative and it is so refreshing to see a couple modeling positive communication habits!
Thank you so much!
This interview was so fascinating. Thank you Sam, Melissa and John for sharing with the world. Loved it!
Jacob Hamblin, according to his own journal, took a native girl to salt lake, married her in the temple, and he didn't know her age. She was probably 12 or 14. The girl didn't know what was even happening. She didn't speak English. And she ran away. This would have been his 3rd or 4th wife. If you don't know who Jacob Hamblin is, he was one of the major pioneers in southern utah.
That's horrible!
Never Mo here, but former Christian and now agnostic and I love your energy and am fascinated by the history of religion and lately Mormonism. Keep up the good work!
Looking forward to this video, as I just finished watching Sam and Melissa on Mormon Stories. But one thing I noticed (as a genealogist) in part 1 of that was when Sam was asked about his grandfather Charles Zitting, he said he believed Charles had 3-4 wives, but actually he had 10 in total. 4 of whom were still alive when Sam was born.
John is so right about if you had ancestors that traced back to the start of the church you were more respected. It was like they would brag about it. Even in my small hometown. We had a lot of people when moved to our ward from Utah. It you have heard of Perdue Chicken, their headquarters is in my hometown and they would pay a lot of people from Utah to move the Maryland and work for them. They would only stay for a few years before they moved back because it was such a big culture shock lol. But they would always brag about their ancestors.
Everyone in this interview is so thoughtful and well spoken. I grew up Lutheran so I definitely do not have the same insight but I recognize the patriarchy and abuse of power. I really appreciate this video! Thank you Sam and Melissa for speaking out about religious abuse!
I have to watch it one more time on Friday. I think this is genius!!!! This brave ladys had such a hard life.
Very interesting interview and props to John for coming up with alot of his family history.
Interesting seeing this strange LDS tradition of including prominent LDS family name as a middle name of children.
Since daughters don't keep their surname & neither do their children assuming you don't marry a cousin, placing the important surname as a middle name was common in 19th century across the U.S. LDS are uber Victorians in so many ways. Strict sexual mores, marrying young (like debutantes), strict clothing rules (garments are like union suits), fathers brokering daughter's marriages, emphasis on cultural accomplishments. All to legitimize & fight against dominant American opinions that polygamists were scandalous. Over compensation to be sure.
Fascinating collaboration! I'm intrigued and riveted. Can't wait for part 2 when John dives into the lives of William Brigham Parkinson's wives! Great job Sam and Melissa!
Thank you so much!
I love Mormon Stories podcast. I learn so much from it. Hearing this side of Dr. Dehlin’s polygamous history was fascinating. Mormonism is intrinsically wrapped up in US history.
“Everything was just wonderful, I loved visiting the colonies as a child”, then when dementia set in, we heard the real truth, “no one liked the fourth wife because she was too young”, pretty funny how a number of stories changed quickly!
Guys, read Wolford Woodruff's manifesto. It doesn't say that the church would stop practicing polygamy. It states that the church wasn't living polygamy AT THAT TIME. It was a lie.
Having read D&C from start to finish, I thought "What?" 🤔 When reading declaration 1. It was not a revelation. Revelations do not start with "to whom it may concern". It was a letter carefully worded by lawyers...
I don’t agree with blaming it “on the time period.” It’s the same as saying that slavery was “a product of its time.” In reality, there were tons of people that knew slavery was bad, not least the slaves themselves. “The time period” argument is a cop-out.
I think it can be helpful to consider the norms of the time period when you're trying to look at what parts were due to polygamy/Mormonism vs what was normal at the time. For example, my grandma (no Mormon ties) wasn't born until 1920 and it still wasn't seen as important for her or other girls in the area to go to high school since it would have required boarding with a family in a nearby town during the week. The boys were allowed to go, but it was too expensive to also send the girls. (She later completed her high school and nursing degrees on her own as a young adult.)
@@katesanders2219 absolutely, but there were plenty of women who WANTED to go to school at the time, and plenty of people who believed in women’s education, but the patriarchy didn’t allow it. It’s not that nobody realized women wanted education, it’s that they actively worked against it. The same way abolitionists always existed and always believed Enslaved people deserved education.
💯
@@katesanders2219 I don’t think the OP was specifically talking about Mormons. I think your comment is actually a great example of the “product of the time” logical fallacy. It sounds like your grandma would have loved to go to school based on the fact that she pursued education as an adult one she had the freedom.
@@mariek9892 I wasn't hearing them excusing the behavior based on the fact that it was normal for the time period (they weren't saying it was okay), I heard them considering if that behavior was unique to the fact that it was part of a polygamous Mormon family. I think in the context it can be a helpful thing to consider. 🙂
This is so interesting to me. My daughter and I did Ancestry DNA a few years ago and she had a possible ancestor flagged as McCaslin Frost. I did some digging and found out he was an early Mormon pioneer. I found some history that claimed he had three wives, but can't find that information now. My daughter's maternal grandmother was a Frost, but not a direct descendant of McCaslin, he's her distant cousin. Not being Mormon, I had no idea we'd find someone like him in our tree. I'd love find out more about him and how ever many wives and kids he had. I find all history facinates me, and love finding connections to events like this. I could listen all day long.
Because I'm a genealogist who can't help myself, I had to do some of my own family statistics. In total, I have 15 grandfathers who practiced polygamy. Between the fifteen men, there were 41 wives. Altogether, these fifteen men had 268 children. Some of the wives got along well and lived in the same home. Many of the women lived in different homes and some of them lived in completely different cities (or even states). All of my polygamous grandfathers married their wives before the first manifesto (so pre-1890), but several of them continued having children even after the second manifesto (so post-1904). Some of these men had children and/or grandchildren who wanted to continue polygamy and went out to Colorado City so I have many more polygamous extended relatives living today. This was a fun episode!
Wow that is amazing that you have so much knowledge about your genealogy! That is so incredible to see what a huge legacy your family must have!
In answer to the question, Why Polygamy? My siblings and I say "So we could be born."
For people with so many relatives, I’ve wondered if you feel like you have to dive into the genealogy of your dates/partners/spouses before hooking up? I’d be afraid of accidentally ending up with a relative, which sounds way too easy with the chances increased to such numbers. Do y’all do dna tests? Or do you just try to date people that have very different features and come from other states or countries or something?
@@mielimedina3146 I come from a small town where all of my paternal relatives have married their third and fourth cousins (multiple ways). I’ve also known of a number of second cousins and even first cousins marrying. They don’t care. They just marry who is in town, haha.
His grandma was embarrassed about her polygamist past. That's why she didn't write about it.
I just finished reading “ Mormon Polygamy, a History “ by Richard Van Wagoner. Well written, documented and fascinating.
( Hope it’s okay to recommend.)
I have watched all of your videos. This collaboration is amazing! I see so many people commenting who have religious backgrounds, wether they are still active in their religion or not. I also hear Amanda Rae often mention in her videos that most subscribers are from religious backgrounds. I just want to say that I am not religious. I was raised to make my own choices in terms of religion. I chose to not practice any religion. Yet my best friend is a Christian. I absolutely love learning about the journey of people who have been connected to religion and have left, as much as I love learning from people who are still engaged in strict fundamentalist religious practices. Thank you all for sharing your experiences.
I love this collab! I really appreciate not sugarcoating the harm these indoctrinations cause while still having and holding respect towards those still involved because you understand that it’s not with bad intentions 💗 truly fascinating to hear about those family lines, it makes me so curious how many people in the area are related without even knowing. It makes me so interested in my family US history regardless of the religious aspect.
You three are just the best at telling/relaying these stories. So informative, so entertaining, such excellent delivery. You guys cover so much ground in such a clear, explanatory way. Always extremely nuanced as well. I really enjoyed this episode!
GO OFF MORE OFTEN, JOHN! The 1:46:39 rant was so, so powerful. May God make more men like you.
Dr. Dehlin, your parents look adorable. I love their wedding picture.
My father was military, too, and he swooped back and married my mother, who was also engaged to someone else.
But 20 years later, she had a hard time convincing my father that my older sisters (who had full scholarships) should be allowed to go to college “because something might happen to their husband.”
Never Mormon here. I am wondering about the "families are forever" thing - which is why those who leave the church have family members (mom's dad's) who are so very upset because they feel their forever family is broken. But then the whole "becoming gods and goddesses of your own worlds" wouldn't allow for you to be with your parents, sisters, brothers, etc. Not sure how you reconcile the two? What do those three levels of heaven have to do with different worlds??
I'm a nevermo and I have always wondered this, too. I thought maybe one day it would come up in a discussion on one of the in-depth channels.
Such a good point. So if you are on your own planet where are your brothers with there planets. Do you all meet in 'top' heaven after doing your work on your own planet. Never mo here but fascinated, don't mean to be fascious, Mormons are good kind people I personally think mis guided by generation on generation indoctrination.
Going with straight doctrine, what matters is a line of temple sealing back to Adam and Eve. Mormon theology is that only married people can be saved in the highest kingdom of heaven. You can be there with siblings only inasmuch that they are married and saved. (Whether one can visit other degrees of glory--Mormonism has three kingdoms of heaven with the highest being further divided--isn't stated.)
Yes, "families are forever" gets messy once you really think about it.
@@iceguy9723 but what about when you get your own planet and populate it with spirit babies?? Wouldn't your dad/brother/cousin have other planets??
@@rhondadearborn3265 That's not doctrinal so there is no answer. (Mormon doctrine ends at three kingdoms of glory with the temple ordinances being a gateway, which is a little weird since the LDS church leaders claim to be prophets, seers and revelators.)
This is so fascinating!!! Thank you.
Why couldn’t John be one of my college professors!? I truly enjoy listening to GUIP and MS, but John has a special way of presentation with a mixture of humor and also serious intent that is incredibly addictive to listen to!
I have never ever seen a subsistence farmer’s wife who didn’t also labor in the field alongside her husband equally. The difference is at night when she has to shell beans and can and cook and lay down for her husband. He may indeed be doing something productive as well in the evening-but at his choice. She has never had a choice throughout history. And remember when these missionaries were sent away- the farm did not stop growing. The animals still needed tending. It was the women doing all that while men sailed away on a vacation tour to get new members. They were likely idle during these mission times except to socialize and preach… “Say Peter Paul Brigham -hey-how would you like to go to Germany for a year? hmm? Don’t worry-we’ll watch out for your wife and mother!”
I have multiple polygamist ancestors. I'm descended from the second wife of two of the men. As far as any of us can tell one, second wife of three, had a pedestrian marriage. She is quoted as saying "she did her duty". The first wife divorced my ancestor after the third marriage with the irony that the second marriage was apparently her idea or at least had her full support. My gut feeling is that marriage #1 was out of convenience and the second marriage was basically arranged. However, he and wife #3 were "compatible."
The other, my great-grandfather and his two wives had, by ALL accounts, fantastic marriages. I've long puzzled why it worked so well for them. They never said, though my grandma had nothing but praise for her father. BTW, he was a farmer in Orderville, but a fervent believer in the United Order.
I had heard once somebody used the expression that we “edit our pictures in a memory “and it makes sense why when asked years later, we forget about the bad things that went down because we edit the pictures in our mind.
Interesting note Veda (Karma’s sister’s name) is the name of the most ancient Hindu scriptures. It would be interesting to know what further influence eastern religions and travels to the east may have had on William’s life.
So interesting! Thank you for sharing!
Karma's Sister's name might be veda as in the Rig-veda... Hindu scriptures.... Source of the concept of 'Karma'.
If you aren’t sealed, is it believed that you won’t be in heaven with your sealed family members?? I love listening to y’all!!! So well versed and incredibly intelligent!!!
Firstly, my family is Baptist and from the south. My Dad would always refer to his parents as mother and father- never mom or dad. I think it was a more formal generational thing. He was a child in the 40s and 50s. Growing up we always called my grandmother Grandmother. I thought it was odd for other people to have other kinds of names like Nonna, Gigi, or granny for their grandmother. My dad referred to his grandmother as Granny Herndon, which was her last name.
This was absolutely fascinating. I thoroughly enjoyed listening and learning. I’m in England, and so haven’t come across polygamy in our history but I am so interested in polygamy and cults and this video really helped me understand the background to the LDS and it’s offshoots. Thank you!
Can’t wait for part 2!!!
I'm enjoying this so much! And wow, John looks JUST like his dad!
I'd like to ask: since Smith the founder / apostle of the Mormon church was considered a sorcerer, with the stone and the hat and all of those things, is it surprising that some early members of the church were into astrology and horoscopes and mystical things?
I find your channels fascinating.
Well said!
Great thought. Thank you.
My thoughts exactly. I mean they are striving to take their family and create their own world after they die, right? So... then it isn't that much of a stretch to explore astrology etc.
@@jeannebrown484 I have a sister Jeanne Brown-spelled exactly the same way! How funny.
My family who were early members were into mysticism. And I might add that members today are into tinctures and holistic medicine
Incredibly interesting, fascinating and every other kind of positive! Can't wait for part two.
Is some of John’s critique difficult for Sam to hear? Sam seems to focus on the positive aspects of his upbringing (not a bad life strategy) but I wonder if these stories make him rethink his own experience? As always though, a fascinating and educational video. Thanks for the collab.
John detailing the general outline of the grandfather and his four wives, is much like the scenario of Anson Call Jr and his wives down in the Mormon colonies in Mexico
Enduring to the end: this was common in Christianity in those times too, and earlier… as when you read about the saints (eg Bernadette), enduring your pain was like a badge of honour. So perhaps it’s our whole society that has shifted around enduring suffering for life in the ever after? Perhaps with the addition of rationalism and more science?
John Ezra T. Benson married my GGGAunt in Winters Quarters. He is mentioned here and there in my own family history. Totally crazy only Edith lived Polygamy since he was the one marrying the polygamists in my family!
Fascinating Diane!
This was very interesting, and inspired me to do some digging. Turns out my great great great grandfather’s brother, Christian Hayer (later Hyer), went to Utah with Brigham Young. Pretty sure he was a polygamist 1) He went with Brigham Young 2) He had 231 great-grandchildren. 😳
My great great great grandparents stayed in the Midwest, and their kids became RLDSers. Their son Lorenzo Hayer and his wife Bertha Danielson (my great great grandparents) were married by Joseph Smith III.
Thanks for this interview.
This was so wonderful! I was fascinated! I so enjoy your videos! You both are good, empathetic individuals who share what you have learned with the rest of us!
John is having a hard time with the role reversal ! Lol
John, thank you for all the information that you bring out about polygamy. I have a polygamous ancestry, also. Yes, what you said, "Polygamy was great for the men, good for the children, but horrible for the women." It was an unqualified bad for the women. Living a grueling life of neglect was what polygamy was for women. And, I think it's obvious that polygamy did not come from God in any sense of the word, but it came from men and served men. As you said, John, the truth is, the great tragedy of polygamy is the abuse and neglect of women. It's all very hard for me to understand and does not fit with anything that is noble and good about humans -- no matter what they say, no matter how much they lie.
Ooh can’t wait to listen to this! I’m a direct descendant of Hyrum Smith and my dad always acted like we were special because of it. 😂 I was so embarrassed about it as a teen when I became inactive.
I love my polygamous heritage. Because I had a great great Grandfather who had 2 Wives, I have a huge Family I'm proud of to claim as mine. Huge is an understatement. My line is GGgF+2W=27C, GgF+1=13, G+1=10c+11=67 (I'm #45) which now = over 900 descendants for my grandparents. I can't imagine a life without them. I know polygamous history is questionable at best, and believe me when I say there is our half and their half and a least I'm from the fat wife and not the ugly wife (seriously most of it in good fun), but it's who I am, it's the last name I was born with and I love what's mine.
Another amazing colab! Such a great idea to go thru LDS Family history & having Sam's perspective having lived the laws they would've yrs n yrs ago. Really enjoying this deep dive. Awesome having Melissa's female input as well! Amazing content!! Can't wait for Pt2!
Great interview and video!!
Thanks so much!
Did the journal mention ‘he looked so great with his new beard and I was devastated that he went to his other 2 wives before me’?
Re: Karma not acknowledging polygamy in her memoir, it seems to me that her generation is the one that had to move the LDS in a very hard turn away from plural marriage. They were the ones who had to prove that, despite growing up in it, they would not follow their parents’ example. She would have known that from a very young age. So it actually makes sense to me that she would have developed a very finessed way of speaking about family while keeping that elephant firmly shoved deep in the closet, only letting small details out to other family, never in something that could have been disseminated more widely, like a book. You do have to wonder, though, if she didn’t do something like silently think the line “I was the middle child if my father’s third marriage” without typing it out, or write a secret chapter about all the polygamy stuff to get it out of her system but then burn it to be sure it wasn’t seen.
Great points!
Fascinating!!!
I expected this episode to be incredibly boring, but I was fascinated and listened the whole way through! So interesting!
1:36:47 It’s disturbing that a woman was forcibly taken from her husband (whom she possibly actually loved) and was forced to marry another man; clearly that lead to a lot of sexual abuse. I’m sure it was also difficult for the men (obviously not as bad but still disturbing). He presumably loved his wife and, given the context on the religion, wasn’t just losing her in this life but also in the next and lost his salvation/exaltation in the next. I’m sure both of those things would be incredibly stressful and traumatizing. Imagine coming back from a mission and your life had been stolen from you. The church makes him believe his life depends on being married and then they take his wife away-while he’s dedicating his life to the church? I wonder if those men stayed in the church after that. Did any of them manage to reunite and run away with their wives?
Thanks John for remembering women ☺️
I am so intrigued with the St. George Temple. My cousins lived across the street and I always remember waking up and seeing it. I think the history there is interesting from Brigham Young disagreeing with the architect to Isaac Haight family living in the temple until they were forced out
I think there has been a history of bigotry against gingers and wonder if that was a factor Vida’s treatment??
My polygamist Great Grandfather was kind of into mysticism as was John D. Lee. I think some members were into that and maybe that’s why the Church has turned away from astrology and the like?
The bible speaks against it BUT it was a part of a hugely popular interest during this time period Nationally. Everyone was intrigued by it.
@BeastShawnee, excellent point. Seances, mediums, spiritism, mind reading, entertainment shows were totally popular in late teens & roaring twenties. Harry Houdini tried to debunk these acts. Amusing since he was a showman himself.
Thank you so much for this podcast! Loved the antique photos, writings and articles of John’s family. And loved even more that John brought up the treatment of women then and now and how society neglects to talk about it. I’ve been saying for a decade and a half already, that society is more aware of racism and LGBTQ discrimination, than it is of sexism. The Me Too movt. helped a little bit with this, but has the Equal Rights Amendment ever been ratified? I don’t live in the US anymore so not up on all the policies. But as a 50-something year old woman, it seems to me that we are still behind when it comes to the patriarchy, which exists globally, however in religion it is even more pronounced. How many polygamous wives a century ago died prematurely due to bearing so many children? How many of them suffered severe depression due to neglect and poverty? How many of them lived out their entire lives as quasi slaves? We need to acknowledge this more. And not only in Mormonism but all over the world. As I write this, some young girl is slaving away in a textile sweatshop across the ocean 14 hrs. a day, for poverty wages. And another one is being sex trafficked right here in N. America, so some criminal men can use them as sex objects. Violence against women is so common it is the norm, and usually goes unprosecuted. 1 in 3 girls has experienced some form of sex abuse/assault before adulthood. Or let’s talk about how predominantly female jobs are still under-appreciated and paid less than predominantly male jobs. Thank you, John Dehlin, for sharing your thoughts on this. You have stated my thoughts of many years. It means a lot.
Thank you, John Dehlin, for sharing your family's history. I'm facinated and am looking forward to the next installment.
This was fascinating, thank you so much for filming this Melissa, Sam and John. I can't wait to watch the 2nd part tomorrow.
31:34 I was wondering where the name Karma came from! So interesting. I would never have expected someone in the western US in the 1800s to have known about Hinduism or anything like that
Edit: Veda is also from Hinduism (the Vedas are the oldest scriptures they have)
I think they pronounced it Veeeeda (which I think Is funny).
Never mo here. I was browsing FamilySearch and was surprised to have ancestors (distant cousins) that were/are polygamists pre manifesto LDS and later FLDS.
That is so interesting! We are all more similar than we seem. =)
Yes! I believe Sam and I actually may be distant cousins. Charles Zitting’s mother, Susannah Van setting, is my 9th cousin three times removed, which would make Charles my 10th cousin (I think).
It wasn't that uncommon for early members in the church to study what would be occult practices. My great great grandfather Edson Whipple was a dowser. It was a practice passed down in the family until my father.
I also don't come from a similar background. My ancestors were just Christian and Catholic, but I find it amazing to see the stories of the people who have left these religions and basically get free from the stuff they have grown up in that was troublesome, especially from a Christian marriage perspective. But I have seen other stories now of some of these people who teach polygamy and many of them find new wives in a similar way to what Sam was saying where they will see a girl they like and court her even if they're already married and then either the girl and her father or just her get to decide whether to marry the man. It seems to be somewhat like the Kingstons where if she has revelation from God or something then she will accept him. I just think it's so sad that a husband would be chasing other girls sometimes right after he married a wife. That would be heartbreaking and it seems like the damage is there for the kids and the wives. The only one who doesn't mind is the husband!!!
Absolutely fascinating! Being the genealogy geek that I am, I had to look up William Brigham Parkinson on FamilySearch (run by the LDS). All four of his wives are listed on his tree but the biographical sketch on it stops after him marrying his first wife. Also, Edith is listed as his wife on the death certificate. Interesting! He is on the 1910 census with Edith and the kids.
So interesting! It makes it seem like Edith and her kids were the favorite family then? Maybe helps to explain why Karma didn’t talk about the others so much?
@@neitan6891 I don't know. I wanted to find the other wives and families on the 1910 census but haven't had a chance. I wonder if he was counted 4 times!
Fascinating! Thank you!!!
I Hope John does the next stage of his ancestry Edith's parents and their story.
Please do. And come back on this Chanel to do it.
I would live to know that they additional generation back was like.
I love that Dr. Parkinson was an ENT and how John’s sister was an SLP; nice! My ex’s family are the Dempsters from Chicago. Great town!