The P1 and P2 Mikado, Gresley's giants
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- Опубликовано: 7 сен 2024
- Keeping on topic with big engines, we look today at an almost forgotten engine and one of the largest ever to be used on UK tracks. The p1 and p2 mikado were not as successful as some of Gresley's other engines but they left an impact so big that not 1 but 2 trusts are looking to bring the engine back for a new generation.
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The balance and the symmetry of these locos was light years ahead .beautiful.
thank you
Nicely presented. Thank you.
You are welcome! thank you
Sadly the 2023 estimate of Prince of Wales has proven to be rather optimistic. Its currently estimated that it will ready by 2025/2026.
Apparently maintenance work on Tornado took priority which pushed back the schedule of Prince of Wales.
That being said, it started construction in early 2014, so if it makes it onto the main line by 2025/26 that would have been a construction time of 11/12 years.
Considering it took them 19 years to build Tornado, which was vastly simpler in its design, 12 years is an incredibly impressive feat!!
I've only just discovered your channel and I'm really liking what I'm seeing 😊 You got yourself a new subscriber! I look forward to seeing more of your videos in the future. 😀
I visited Doncaster Loco Works and Motive Power Depot in the early 1960s on Ian Alan rail fans trip. We were pulled by 60022 Mallard out from Kings Cross and return. Mallard managed 120mph on return leg and it made television news Sunday evening and newspapers on the Monday
that's amazing, im so jealous. I sadly can't remember mallard in steam but she was pulling the Scarborough express though my town when I was a child, so sad I can't remember her going through but im lucky not to live too far from her.
Very well done vid. As for the subject matter, it's a shame none of these engines were saved. Hopefully the P2 Trust will prosper and you UK folks will once more experience the excitement of watching a large engine running under steam. You folks in the UK are so lucky to have so many preserved steam locos.
On the subject of this vid, Canada's Canadian Pacific Railway was a big user of Mikados of various sizes starting in 1909 and continuing on until the end of steam in Canada circa 1960. Strangely enough, the very first CPR "Mikes" were classed as P1 with various subclasses until the P2 version arrived sometime in the 20's. The P2 subclasses were still being built during WWII but shortly after the war ended, so did the CPR's purchases of ANY steam locos. To my knowledge, all the P1s were hand fired but most, if not all of the P2 class were fitted with mechanical stokers.
ohh i never knew this, im gonna have to do some research into the Canadian railways, thank you :)
I've always been a fan of steam locomotives. A few years ago I saw an article where where someone had developed Bio Coal which is coal made in a lab instead of mined from the ground. The creator of it planned to use it on a former Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe railroad steam locomotive. I haven't heard any more on it in that time but I'm sure with the combination of new lab made coal and groups building new steam locomotives, I feel that we should expect to see the return of steam in the future.
definitely im gonna try and dig up more on this bio coal it definitely sounds interesting but yeah the more steam the better in my book
I very much doubt it. Coal just won't be allowed per the COP26 climate change stuff currently being discussed in Glasgow Scotland. Maybe just enough mined to feed steel blast furnaces and feed the preservation steam locomotives etc, but not for new commercial use
@@DoncasterDrawn If you’re still interested in the topic of the OP’s comment, the “bio coal” they spoke of is torrified biomass and the organization is the Coalition For Sustainable Rail. They’ve done a few successful tests of the stuff and have made one or two videos of said tests here on TubeYou, and their plans for AT&SF 3463, the 4-6-4 they were gonna run, have shifted to cosmetic stabilization and a look at seeing if it’s feasible to bring it back into operation. They’ve gotta website with a few documents that’re well worth a read as well.
If your definition of return of steam is a commercial one for use with the general public, I highly doubt that will happen even with bio coal. As spectacular as they are, steam trains just aren’t very energy efficient or reliable enough. They can’t reliably compete with electric or maglev
me toooooooo
Brilliant , glad I found your channel
Welcome aboard!
Cutting the P2's down to a Pacific wheel arrangement was sheer vandalism, Edward Thompson must have had a real chip on his shoulder about Gresley.
I have to admit it wasn't the greastet move he made but I can understand why - hopefully seeing the new P2's on the track will be worth it
Not true. The P2s had a number of performance issues including regular cracked frames and their availability was significantly lower than other large mainline classes. Something had to be done as the demands of WW2 meant that there simply wasn't any scope for these locos not to be available for long periods of time. Thompson had to do something to try and improve reliability but had limited financial resources to do so. He rebuilt them in an attempt to improve their availability and to reduce the wear and tear that these locos were having on the line to Aberdeen. There is no evidence that he had any issues with Gresley whatsoever, he was, after all Gresley's assistant for many years. Thompson took over the CME role on the LNER upon Gresley's death at a very difficult time for the railway and for the country as a whole. He does not get the recognition that he deserves.
@@hoskinb1 I worked at Derby loco' works so cannot comment on LNER loco's. However I can say that the issue of cracked loco' frames was definitely not confined to P2s. Some clsses were notorious for cracking frames. The only class of loco' I NEVER saw with a cracked frame at some point were the BR class 5s which, of course did not exist in the war. I always thought the Americans had the right idea with bar frames.
Looks like you've been brainwashed by the anti-Thompson lot.
The P2s were Gresleys Achilles heel. They were unreliable coal-hungry follies.
Thompson's choice was scrap them or rebuild them and he elected to rebuild them.
Always glad to see bits of history.
thanks im glad too
i think that the p2s pulled regular expresses from kings cross to edinbrough, sometimes even so far to aberdeen. real workhorses.
I've never heard them going down as far as London but yeah they were real workhorses I can't wait to see the class once again grace the rails
@@DoncasterDrawn yeah, sorry im not the best expert.
the only think i dont get about the newbuild #2007 is that she is named Prince of Wales, surely, given the original 6 were named after Scotish clans and nobles, she should of been named something like Duke of Edinburgh
im not sure either but I kinda like the name, its very different and kinda indicates a new beginning
Had the LNER built more P2's they would have been used south of the border, Scotland didn't need any more. So who knows what names could have been used.
Agreed but you can't beat 'Cock O the North'
Am I the only one who really likes the Way the rebuilt P2s look? Dont get me wrong, I dislike most of Thompsons rebuilds but Mons Meg and the others just look really interesting. Also love that name.
yeah she was stunning. it'll be interesting to see both the prince of Wales and cock of the north on the mainline. it'll be a stark contrast and many may not guess they are sisters.
Whisp of Words. It was in the late '50s on a drizzly Sunday afternoon I was at the North end of what was then platform 8 at York station. Loco' No 60506 Wolf of Badenoch drifted slowly, light engine down the, now gone, southbound middle road. I walked alongside him until he just cleared the station canopy at the south end when he got a green light. I saw the driver open the regulator slightly and the drivers just spun with no discernable increase in speed. I remember thinking, "yeah! That's because you've had 25% of your traction removed. The driver quickly recovered it, but had it still been a P2 it probably wouldn't have happened.
Not gonna lie, had the LNER fitted stokers to the P1's, the firemen may have actually enjoyed them. Not saying that stokers would've been the thing that fixed all the issues, but they certainly would've prevented the firemen from getting TO worn out and perhaps filing a complaint or two.
true but I don't think the uk network were a big fan of them. stokers were prone to jamming and I can't imagine that it distributes the coal in the firebox as well as a fireman. I also don't think the firemen would be too happy about a machine taking over their job.
@@DoncasterDrawn I don’t think they were used much here. If it was, the coal would have to be prepared for it as well, being broken into much smaller ‘nuts’ to work with it. The post WW2 fleet manufactured across the pond for the SNCF had them (the class 141R), and they using a fuel known as :Charbon Criblé’, so there would have to be a separate batch of it for classes fitted with them.
The other option would have been to use heavy oil as a fuel. There had been some trials of that by the GWR, but not popular financially here. Many 141Rs on the SNCF did use it, though.
I'm shocked to hear that mechanical engine stokers never caught on in the UK. Many Class 1 US and Canadian roads made extensive use of engines equipped with mechanical stokers, especially before oil firing caught on in the latter years of steam.
@@johnkeepin7527 There were some 9F’s fitted with stokers back in the day. There wasn’t any performance difference between hand shoveling though.
Southern 4501 over in the United States has a mechanical stoker built to a Chinese design. A larger 4-axle bogey tender like 4501 had when she was first built up until 1982 could have worked. Many big steamers have stokers.
I always wondered about the origin of the name Mikado but never learned the origin before now, and it's more interesting then I would have imagined. For what it's worth this is a great video, and you got a new subscriber from me!
aww thank you so much
In the USA and Canada, most railroad men called them "Mikes."
Great video, only being let down by referring to the P2s as Freight locomotives. Which they are not, the P1s were though. The P2s were developed as you say for the notoriously twisty/turny switchback Edinburgh Aberdeen line.....
I never really knew the p2 had a passenger history, I couldn't find anything other than they were used as freight. but thank you for the info :)
Have you seen the latest P2 update? They have built a lot of the cylinder casing now.
Not only that but the first of the new boilers which will be going into 2007 is due for a March delivery!
These should be interesting locomotives when they are up and running.
The P2s are awesome locomotives
So awesome I’m gonna yeet my wallet when I can to buy one a Hornby model
yup same. I just can't wait to see this thing in the flesh. its going to huge!!
Very, very good: crisp and informative. Subb'd.
Awesome, thank you so much welcome :)
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again. The LNER should have fitted the p1 and p2 locomotives with stokers, larger bogey tenders, and feedwater heaters, they could have been way more successful. I can draw that conclusion because there’s a 2-8-2 locomotive where I live over in the United States that had a similar problem to the p2s.
Southern railway 4501 was/is a 2-8-2 locomotive built originally without a stoker but with a feedwater heater. The locomotive suffered from being very coal hungry for most of the its life. However, in 2014, 4501 was rebuilt to have a stoker, a larger tender, and a Chinese copy of a worthington SA feedwater heater. These modifications really made 4501 work better than it had before.
The design improvements incorporated in the building of the new P2, number 2007, should have a significant impact on the fuel consumption of the design. Grate areas of 50 sq ft or less generally do not require a mechanical stoker. LNER engines are frequently fitted with exhaust steam injectors, much less costly and complicated than dedicated feed water heaters.
Grezza,s grunter always liked his P2 Heavy Express Passenger Engines, okay his A series Pacifics were ,and still charismatic, even with full sanders on they slipped their b------s off when starting a heavy train. But when it comes to raw pulling power, you cannot beat an eight coupled express passenger engine. That extra drive axle makes all the difference between a noisy calamitous departure, and one with confident strident barks from the chimney .In the cool stakes Grezza,s Grunter leaves Flying Scotsman in its smoke screen.
The 9F's where proposed as a 2-8-2
yeah, I heard a few were being proposed as mikados but for some reason or another most were dropped. some would make sense but others? well, the idea as best left on the cutting room floor :)
Mark Foley. That's correct, don't know which genius opted for 2-10-0 but from my days with BR I could tell of a few remarkable personal experiences behind 9Fs. E.G. 80 MPH behind 92113 between Church Fenton and York.
How fast were the Streamlined P2s in mph.
The 2-8-2 is nice but a 4-8-2 is pogger
pogger? never heard the term but yes I gotta love those mikados
@@DoncasterDrawn Emote basically means showing emotions using images or in a theatrical manner. Same way it is a form of emote that shows the reaction of surprise and excite using a surprised frog image. Hence, instead of typing your reactions you can send a poggers emote to show emotions like 'great', 'awesome', etc.
I'm confused, you give the impression two new P2 locos are to be built (as in hasn't happened yet). I'm assuming by those rather out of date comments, that you filmed this some years ago.
I'm only aware of one new P2 being built as the Prince of Wales in the image of the original Cock o the North. I'm helping fund it and currently its about two thirds complete. The P2 Steam Locomotive Trust is just a subsidiary of The A1 Steam Locomotive Company (Trust), so are one and the same company, not two unrelated ones.
These Gresley Mikados are my favourite looking loco. I already have Hornby's rare posh version (not the Railroad one) of Cock o the North which I have lightly weathered. I have the streamlined Lord Precident on order and will get Hornby's newly tooled Prince of Wales from the P2 Trust as and when advertised for sale next year (2022)
hi Andrew, yep there are 2 locos to be built. one belongs to the P2 steam locomotive company and the other belongs to Doncaster P2 locomotive trust. The Prince of Wales is being listed as engine number 2007 and is effectively a brand new engine. The Doncaster P2 locomotive trust is rebuilding the cock o the north in its streamlined shape. it is a copy of the original design. I have included the website here. www.cockothenorth.co.uk
@@DoncasterDrawn Well knock me for six, how did that go under my radar. Do you know if the two organisations share parts and expertise to help spread costs, or is 2007 far better funded ?
@@andrewdking They are very much separate entities and neither trust has connection to the other.
You are right on the funding front though, 2007 now has her cylinder’s and boiler is due March whereas there’s been no news on the Doncaster P2 in years (save for them moving to a new HQ).
What about the 7200 from the gwr
yeah I can cover them, no problem
This comment is in no way meant to be harmful, I am simply someone who sees the misinformation and hopes to correct it.
We’re all steam enthusiasts here.
You did alright putting together this video, but I feel like you were missing a significant portion of the story leading to the P2’s fate.
It was in fact Edward Thompson who would go on to take over for Sir Nigel Gresley after he died and not long after, Thompson tried to 1up Gresley’s P2s but ultimately ruined them entirely, making the once proud, powerful, and visually striking P2 Class into the utterly terrible A2/2 Class (not A2 class).
Along with that, the P2 Class was never forgotten or near forgotten.
You’ve also seemed to be somewhat misinformed, the A1 Trust and the P2 Trust are actually the same people.
Not only that, the Trust is not rebuilding Cock ‘o the North but adding a seventh (7th) member of the class and its name is “Prince of Wales.”
your comments are not harmful in any way and I am always open to productive criticism and critique. if im wrong I am the first to put my hand up so don't worry about calling out things :) Yes, I could have explained Edward Thompsons influence and the remaking of the P2 into the A2 class but this would have meant I would have had to triple my run time. I felt that that A2 deserved a whole other video and I will look at this later. you are also right the A1 trust and the P2 are the same company. they are based in Darlington and are in production of the price of Wales. The other trust I was referring to is the Doncaster P2 locomotive trust. www.cockothenorth.co.uk. this trust is completely separate to the P2 trust and they are the ones recreating the cock o' the north. I think due the pandemic though production has stalled with only the frames done. there's little movement on this loco but I hope that things will pick up.
so when are we building the e2
at the moment, I haven't heard any plans for an E2 engine but with the success of tornado and the P2's, you never know!
I know an engine you talk about next time the southern railway Q1
ohh I like that I'll definitely start getting some research together. I haven't featured a southern engine for a while now. thank you
The p2s did not pull frieght
they did for a short time but I kinda focused on that. I've just found more info on them though, they were fascinating engines. can't wait to see them on the tracks again
Can you cover the LNER V4
consider it done
I live in Doncaster
brilliant love the place, some of the best engines were built there
@@DoncasterDrawn yes they were
But why should 2 suffer ?
Who says "Two-zero-zero-one"? Most people would surely say "Two-double-oh-one".
That the correct way to say it ?? Most people would go for the easy way yes
yeah, I alternate between 0 and zero its a habit :)
Big Boys are NOT the largest in the world, now if you said largest PRESERVED then you would be correct
Don't know which book this young lady is reading from ! But it's certainly not written by an Railway Engineer, or a Railway Historian, as its primarily "Garbage" !!!!