"We’re taught that we’re supposed to identify possible instances of racism in everything that we see and that exercise, and it becomes an exercise, doesn’t have anything to do with helping black people in underserved communities make their lives better. We’re distracted by posturing over activism." Nailed it.
Problem is that without engaging in such an exercise, people never identify and deconstruct the internalized biases and how those biases manifest through structures in society.
@@draunt7 Identifying and calling out racism where it exists is healthy. But today’s myopic focus on externalities distracts from more difficult yet salient conversations and actions to address racial equality. Also, speculating on any and every possibility of racial discrimination, sub-conscious or otherwise, really disempowers people from making meaningful change because, for many, it removes the burden of personal responsibility. It’s much easier to say “you need to change” or worse, the ambiguous “they” need to change or “the system” needs to change than to admit “I need to change” or even that I can help my fellow through my own actions. Our time would be better spent taking real steps to build eachother up rather than tear eachother down but it only takes speculation to accomplish the latter while the former entails hard work. My last thought here is that attempting to root out every instance of racial discrimination is an exercise in futility - a waste of precious time and resources. Unpopular as it may be, there are prejudices rooted in every persons’ mind, whether they’ll admit it or not. It’s just a human trait; a shortcut we take to associate things that appear similar and make assumptions. The question is whether or not the prejudice is acted upon. Identifying those instances doesn’t require an “exercise”. Most people are good and decent, despite what news outlets say, and can spot racist actions for what they are. In past eras racism may have been accepted but for the past several decades, it is generally has not been.
Except it's not, because anti-racism has a comprehensive and varied political platform about what it would take to seriously address institutional racism, a platform that McWhorter wastes no time considering in the book.
@@draunt7 The assumption implicit in your argument is that most people have even a modicum of self awareness, they do not. You have to work within the restrictions of human nature at least. If you think you need society wide self awareness to happen in order for there to be change you will never achieve your desired goal.
Marc’s logic is so convoluted and tortured that while l’m sure it’s heart felt, it is for me almost impossible to follow. He seems to me the perfect example of black woke that McWorter is talking about.
Great point. But the only reason Marc Lamont Shill is not being condescending here (as he oftentimes is to particular types of guests) is that he respects, as an academic himself, the academic chops of his guest. Otherwise he can be low key condescending and unpleasant. Here he was cautious; treading lightly. But yes, we always welcome a polite dialogue where we don't have to sift through the unpleasantness and loudness to get to the meat of the matter.
I suspect the reason he is not yelling over him is that he respects him as a person. John maybe a conservative, but I sense he is the kind of person who is a conservative not because of money, but a true believer.
The contrast between Marc L. Hill's frenzied speech and John McWhorter economy of words is staggering. Such elegance in his arguments. Perks of being a linguist, I guess.
His ideas are rooted in assumption, not proof and evidence. This is what I dislike about his positions. The entire anti-racist left right now is making all language out to be racist dog-whistles. As though some random white granny who goes to church every Sunday is looking to enslave black folks and keep them from eating. It is an absurdity of the 1st order. Yes, I'm sure there are racists in the world.. I've met them. But the vast majority are just not that way. And as I've said elsewhere, the Marc Lamont Hill's of the world have not made a good argument against this one very important point: Sub-Saharan Africans who immigrated to the USA are outperforming USA born whites in average income at this point in time. These immigrants are visually indistinguishable from USA born black folks.. so if racism against sub-saharan black people is so pervasive and devastating, why are the African immigrants so successful? Until someone on the left can answer that question, they are not going to get a fair hearing from me. The entire set of arguments hinges on us believing institutional racism exists, yet without any evidence that it does. Just people assuming some motivation and pointing to cherry picked instances rather than doing double blind tests to find the real truth of things. IF the left can prove my point wrong, I'll listen. But so far, I only hear crickets.
Makes sense because it's very post-modern and critical, so "readings" of everything are "problematized" and rejected and only the self remains. If you've got 45 minutes, check out Michael Sugrue's lecture on Lyotard (it's here on RUclips). It's about 30 years old but is very prescient (and entertaining!) in explaining a lot of the intellectual power struggles of today. The project is to basically propagate a norm of critically delegitimizing any "narrative" based on authority, consensus, etc. John's idea of "let's just focus on what works" (i.e., based on evidence and data) is very pragmatic and even scientific, and those (science and pragmatism) "grand narratives" impel the critical animus of post-modern thinkers. That's my rambling summary.
@@svalbard01 I dont think John cares about what works since data and evidence very clearly supports CRT and the idea that the US has systematic racism.
And dishonest. It's Meritocracy World which is casually called a White Supremacy World by grifters like Marc, Joy and those on the picture. They all thrive in this world but choose to smear it for their own reasons.
@@m.chumakov1033 Meritocracy, hahahahaha! Comments like this is the real reason these issues are intractable. Burn America to the ground at this point.
@@GoSuMonSteR it's certainly not ONLY a meritocracy, but it is a meritocracy to a large degree. That doesn't change the fact that, for some people, having their merit (or potential merit) become known to the right people, is very difficult. But that's what John is saying, focus on helping people get the merit they deserve and be elevated. Not focus devicively on the myriad ethereal reasons they haven't yet.
This ain't as complicated as some would like you to believe. Just help the poor no matter what colour skin they have as Jeff Bezos and Robert F. Smith are doing fine. The powers that be are scared that poor Americans will get together and vote out those who have something to gain by you being divided.
Nonsense. Try a little thought experiment - If a black man said he only dates black women would you consider that racist? If a white man said he only dates white women would you consider that racist? If an Asian man said he only dates yellow women would you consider that racist? And then of course we have the old - Its fine for black people to call themselves black but what would be the response if someone called an Asian yellow or an Indian brown or a native American red? The left woke clowns have driven the cause of black people beyond them being the oppressed to the point where some would see them as the oppressors now!
There is no solution so long as white America looks upon its black fellow citizens as stolen property...not quite legitimate Americans, more like immigrants or refugees. It's hard wired in white American collective psyche.
Because both Marc and John are measured and willing to have an actual dialogue, I find myself more open to hearing “the other side” of the issue. Kudos to both men for representing how discourse should take place.
@@johnpichon689 It's not an "other side". They're on the same side, just disagreeing with how to solve the issue. You didn't read the book or listen very closely.
@@blainenewby you idiot I’m referring to the person who made this comment we’re under, mentioning the other side.. If you can read very closely I am questioning this feeds comment not the video
@Denavio Leeks stop spreading lies. Even if that were true, which it isn't, you are just saying that so you can runaway from the conversation. It's easier to disprove someone if you can just discredit them for who might pay them and not for their actual ideas. It would seem You're apart of that religion John talks about.
@@johnpichon689 Injustice issues can have more than one legitimate side. It isn't always injustice on one side and justice on the other. There can be two sides, both aligned with justice, with competing strategies for achieving it.
You missed his point. Marc touched upon the internalization of whiteness being seen as superior. Not being attracted to a black person is due to racial conditioning of the idealization of white beauty. Saying is racist is simplistic; it's more about learning how much we have all internalized racist ideas, attitudes, and norms. How is someone going to say that out of all the black people in the world, they are not attracted to any of them? That doesn't even make sense logically. Do the research, black women are seen as less desirable than white women. This isn't anything new. It's the reason why Denzel refused to kiss Julia Roberts on sceen. Read the interview where he talked about the importance of resisting that reinforcement of white women being desirable over black women.
@@kamsolusar8529 There are so many types of blacks. I’ve lived in Africa and different ethnicities have different physical characteristics, and while some are very similar to caucasians but with darker skin, some have very different features. As a white man, I’ve felt attracted to the former (there are some very fine black women) but not the later. Is it white supremacy or just the fact I have a certain standard of beauty?
@@YouJGSousa you can't divorce your preferences from the context of your society. We are all shaped by it. Why do white women get idealized in the media? That doesn't happen because they're "objectively" more attractive. We've all been conditioned by the systems of white supremacy. Why is it when you go to India and Pakistan, there are commercials for skin lightening products? Because anti-Blackness is global. Closer you are to black, the less attractive you are according to white supremacy.
Marc L. Hill is as woke as f**k, but he has the decency and the courage to bring to his show (time and time again...) smart and eloquent ppl who think differently
I always say not one person or way is correct and that we need all them points of view! Lord knows I couldn't do this Martin Luther's way but I could follow the teaching of Malcolm X or Garvey. We don't need one plan we need a number of them as a people to be successful.
If you think that this brothers woke you are sadly mistaken. Constantly being a victim of something we weren't there for is the exact opposite. Yeah it feels good to see a brother on the screen sounding smart but the message and the narrative is disgusting and holding us back. We have a finite reservoir of things we can take on. So its a complete foolish to be stuck of something that happened to others in the past. Here's one why are folks from every continent wants to come here huh. Why is it that immigrants come here do better and dont complain about the same things. We look so stupid fighting for what the "woke" are. Remember gods watching and he doesn't listen to excuses.
@@bellison74 ; Well said ; all black don’t think the same way. We need more open debate among black who want the same ends but have different ways of getting there.
Hill seems to think that putting meat on those contradictions means that the contradictions disappear...they don't, they grow fatter and ugly. And I know he presents that "we'll blame the white man" bit at the end as a joke, but...I really think it's *not* a joke given all the other things he's said about white people.
Hill was being tongue-in-cheek but it definitely isn’t a parody of what he really believes. “Keeping white people on the hook” is a lucrative industry that serves all kinds of purposes except helping black people.
Well said. But I think in a sense what’s happening is that John is saying the OUTCOME is a contradiction whereas Marc is arguing that the INTENTION is not. I tend to agree with the McWhorters of the world because I find the current, cultural, racial conception today to be a frenzied series of contradictions that do no good but I get that Marc is arguing that in their fetal state, independent of cultural movements, these “contradictory” ideas are ultimately born out of us just trying to be thoughtful about all our actions. But John is trying to say okay Marc but everything is negative or “racist” if you put it under a microscope. Solving these problems doesn’t require that level of scrutiny. It’s no wonder this woke stuff originated in college classes decades ago. It really reminds me of an English class exercise where any action or character can be anywhere on the moral barometer depending on the deconstructionist lens under which you view them.
@@tomatoesandradiowire482 I guess you can say: anything is possible in the social realm *in theory* , but when you begin to apply hypothesis to reality and they either conflict with it or with each other, then you're going to have to drop them, or think of a new hypothesis to test (and the *testing* is the most important bit).
@@niriop 100%. But we can't even reach that step because now "objectivity" and "scientific reason" are each various, but unequivocally condemnable, shades of "white supremacy."
This is the most refreshingly thoughtful and thorough discussion I’ve heard on McWhorter’s newest work yet. Mr Hill strikes the perfect balance between respect, debate, and authentic research.
McWhorter is right. Everything is view from a racial lens and the examples he shows in the book are on point. For Hill to continue pushing the issue shows a perfect example of these dynamic at play. Dammed if you do and equally Dammed if you don’t.
Apparently free speech is still allowed however; this professor seams to thick people calling out on going issues of racism, means you are "Woke" or "Virtua signalling" This professor also said that Critical Race Theory is teaching black people to think all white people evil and all black people are victims of racism. Critical has absolutely NOTHING to do with demonizing all white people, Critical Race Theory, is a university text study, it's focuses on institutional and systemic structures in America that discriminated against none white people. Especially in the justice system and law enforcement.
Mcwhorter knows full well that this presenter is missing the point and frankly woke. But he goes on in the hope of reaching the audience. Otherwise his demeanour would be more ruthless.
As a white person living in a $10,000 house in murder central Lamont doesn't seem to care about black people in the hood the way McWhorter does. He wants to just talk about the right-wing and talk about some high minded idealistic shit that does nothing except make rich people feel good. My husband does more good bc he is mechanically very gifted, a savant of mechanics and every trade and we live where he gets to help people bc in the hood class issues are the main issue. Rich people can't understand that having a great free mechanic that will take the time to teach you while he does it if you are interested can really save someone's day or week or month. Poor people having a car break down or plumbing or electrical problem can really make a person feel so overwhelmed enough to just give up. They want to make us hate each other starting with the children and that is what I would do if I hated black people. I was on the left most of my life and what they are doing is going to make everything worse for everyone except the ruling establishment. McWhorter may be rich and not very hood like but he genuinely cares and I don't believe that about Lamont bc he doesn't care about solutions. He glosses over the contradictions as if they aren't important but in real life a woke person will just say to a white girl she fetishizes black men and not even know anything about her except she is dating a black man. They don't talk it over in some high minded discussions. My white unarmed neighbor was killed by cops last yr and it got 20 secs local news. 18 of the 20 in my state killed by cops in 2020 were white and most had no bodycam including those with knives as the weapon and that's all I know bc none were covered more than 20 secs. Black people kill more white people than white people kill black people and it never gets covered and considering there are way more whites so they just don't kill more of us in real numbers it's disproportionately really high. It's sad bc I hate saying this but people need to realize that all they are doing is the bidding of the ruling class who wants us to hate each other. Sorry, white people aren't hunting black people in the streets bc if we are we are some piss poor hunters killed more by the prey more than there are hunters to kill. Most white folks know this and most of us we let it go bc most of us really do understand we need to work together. I was pulled off the street and raped and being choked to death when a man was coming and he ran off. When police wanted me to do a line-up of a suspect in a similar case I wouldn't do it bc I truly lost his face in my mind. After telling them they still pressured me to do a line-up and I told them only DNA would ID him and they said if I didn't point someone out my rape kit wouldn't be processed. This was in 1998. I sleep just fine I never got justice because I didn't cause an injustice by doing a line-up. I am not out to get black people bc one individual that happened to be black tried to kill me. I know white men do that stuff too. But, I am not going to pretend that there is a thing called "whiteness" and it is all bad and evil. No! I will just care about my all my neighbors who don't talk this shit. Even if I agreed with all of it; nothing would change in this hood for anyone. In fact, they are wasting time worrying about what little thing white people might think so no politicians ever have to come up with actual solutions bc they don't want it to be better bc they need us divided. I have heard about 20 shootings from my livingroom since 2020 and maybe one wasn't black and Lamont doesn't have to worry about it because he doesn't see it. I do. I don't care about blaming black people for it like they would say a racist would. No, I just know something needs to happen here and if you will not even talk about it bc the evil right-wing will use it then what? It's like rich people want to win some ideological war and don't care how many people die as long as the right-wing can't point to black on black crime. You can address it without blaming a whole race. Who cares if some right-wing person says anything? Most of the time the right-wing seems to care more than anyone else bc the left pretends it's not happening which is far worse and shows just how little they care about black people in the hood.
@@theblindprogrammer he could have easily gone the woke route and made money but his books are so thoughtful and has actual solutions. I live in a $10,000 house in murder central and the left only cares about going after people for words they say and don't ever really care about solutions bc in this hood regardless of race most problems are class based. Hell, the only unarmed person killed here was my white neighbor last year and it got 20 secs local news but I still will say this hood has problems that are class based. Whatever some average white people with no power think about race is never going to make anyone's lives better in this hood. The left tried to Kenosha this hood and black men with guns sent them packing before they made it a quarter block in. The left expects us to get mad the right went to the Capital, please at least they didn't come here to protest and riot against poor people bc that's all that is here and the establishment hoped they would get in and burn it all down and the white folk would have gotten arrested and gone viral as white supremacists if we forced them out using guns so it was up to the blacks to save the hood from spoiled suburban kids who would go home and sleep in a neighborhood they would never destroy and riot in. I really appreciate they saved the hood. The left has no idea how many people they are losing over this and black people are not a monolith at all and plenty do not like the left. The left ignores the major problems here bc they just care about winning an ideological war on Twitter. Can't care about the 20 shootings I have heard from my livingroom since 2020 and the insane rise in murders all over this country bc the right-wing might say some shit about black on black crime. Can't lose a one-day Twitter war. That's how I think of Marc. McWhorter doesn't care about ideological wars on Twitter that are meaningless here in this hood. He cares about actual real solutions and knows the woke bullshit is a huge wall in the way.
Bruh he’s a journalist. He’s supposed to ask hard questions. He wasn’t attacking John. He was posing oppositional questions that allowed John to defend his arguments. That’s what a good journalist does.
He is not a voice of reason for us blacks who refuse to just turn the other check on white supremist racism born In America. I guess we just made it all up? There's no racism going on no way! John is a coward. As for you mary you know danm well better the truth about America. We ALL KNOW!
I appreciate how straight forward John is. He's easy to understand because his points are logical and usually self-evident. Marc uses fancy sounding words that mean very little in context, to try to confound his perceived opponent. If you really listen to him you're left asking, WTF did he just say? It's often sweet-sounding nonsense. Michael Eric Dyson is a master of this trickery as well. Luckily John is too intelligent to be dragged into the murky depths of Marc's illogical ideological arguments.
This was an excellent discussion. My highest complements to both - I am partial to John McWhorter since I have read him for years on his popularization of Linguistic theories. But the push back from John Hill was measured and logical. This is a model how discussions should be conducted
Well Marc actually opened with some extremely disingenuous points about Johns intentions, so i actually think his approach was rather nasty. In general he seems to be a gotcha-man who sneers at his opponents while describing their positions. But sure, johns own politeness and directness kept him in line here.
And here's the problem with Hill's argument: "We need the support of white allies...blah, blah, blah." No, we don't. That "support" has done us more harm than good. We need to promote black agency and development. We are capable of self-governance and self-sufficiency. The constant drumbeat of "We can't because the white man...." isn't helpful. We don't need housing policy. We need the economic development that allows us to buy, develop, and live where we want. I'm black. My family and friends are black. We all own houses - sometimes multiple houses. It's not a policy issue.
Agreed ... struggling communities need to unify and support each other as best they can. That said, we also need everyone's help (federal/local government, business community, etc.). Isolationism has never helped.
Sure you do as white allies tend to still hold power when it comes to, at the very least, making change in writing. We can do chunk of work but it is not a single race solution.
How has the civil rights movement done more harm than good? Affirmative action? EEOC? Title VII? I agree that we need to promote agency for all people, but this is also a cultural/education issue. People coming here from Africa and the West Indies make more money on average than white people. Education is the key variable ... not race.
This is a rejection of the fact that the economic system is artificial, we created it and continue to create it. What you’re saying is “a minority of blsck people have managed to succeed in an economic system designed for most people to lack dignity or security and many to be in utter poverty, so just ignore the game being rigged and play the game better”. Imo you’re close to the answer though - black politics is a mirage because being black is less determinative of your interests than your economic situation. Diddy and jay z and Obama share more interests with klansmen billionaires than they do with the average working class black person. Upper middle class black lawyers and surgeons and car dealership owners have more in common with similarly situated white people than the black poor. In the past when legal outright discrimination and Jim Crow were in effect it made sense to have total racial solidarity. Now the issues are primarily economic. Even in the mass incarceration boom black college grads are no more likely to go to jail than they used to be. But high school and below black men are waaayyy more likely to go to jail than they were pre mass incarceration. It didn’t affect the black rich. Raising wages for all the black women workint minimum wage jobs is actively bad for black people who are upper middle class all the way up to billionaires. Same with universal healthcare, raising social security, anything that would be good for most regular black people is bad or irrelevant to rich black people. There is no shared interest.
Our people need to hear more people like John McWhorter speak. I'm so tired about hearing about the "white racist boogeyman" the past 6 years its getting sickening at this point. I also liked that he basically pointed out the 3 new age "race hustlers"......I'm not sure people like them even want a real solution to the issues because if they can't constantly complain about racism then they won't have a job/position.
@@leronharrison1110 really? Jonh who is part of a duo on BloggingheadsTV and talks deeply about race and racism ...for hours...weekly...for years. John also has written several books on race and racism. Challenged Kendi X, HNJones, Di Angelo etc in their positions. Yeah you sound like know nothing about John.
@@darrylpete7551 What McWhorter was saying just made sense and spoke to the complexity as well as the beneficial value of some issues over others. Hill is an ideologue and bent on defending his ideological beliefs regardless of how reasonable or practical the critique of them may be. It seemed like a competition because even though McWhorter was making clear practical sense, Hill flat out said he disagreed with him -even though he couldn't say why and had nothing to counter his arguments with. He just...disagreed.' That's a competitive stance. A priori.
Abraham Lincoln, the original RINO, catered to "wokeness" which led to the War of Northern Aggression. As a result, black people lost the benefit of slavery and everyone became miserable.
One hopes it translates to everyday interactions. It means less assuming a lot of shitty things about people and being more aware when it comes to certain interactions. It means less closed doors and more open dialogue and cooperation.
@@TNDCBaby If that's the goal, wokeness is certainly not how we get there. Anyone who has been paying attention to how woke people behave knows the vast majority of them do not welcome dialog from opposing viewpoints. This is why there are many comments on this video commending Marc for inviting this man. This kind of thing just isn't common in the "woke" space.
@@eazzii_m5408 That's my view of what can happen. I think some of us are getting too caught up on what we see on tv. "woke" people are the random folks you see everyday and you won't know it until you have a conversation with them about specific topics. The dialogue I'm guessing that you've seen are random shows whose intent is to get high ratings so, yes, they're going to be more combative than average. The topics can also be tied to pain, trauma, and other trigger points that bring out the worst in people because the "other side" can often be someone denying stats, your lived experiences, and at the extreme, your humanity. Wokeness , in its simplest form, is being aware of injustice. That awareness shouldn't stop anyone from wanting to keep working on fixing very obviously flawed and outdated systems.
@@TNDCBaby I have a couple questions for you. What about the "system" is outdated? Why say "woke" instead of injustice if that is the definition of woke? I grew up in the hoods of The Bronx and Brooklyn. The people who did not concern themselves with "woke" culture were the ones who succeeded. The ones who placed much stock into "wokeness" felt too much of the world was against them, so they decided not to even try. The way I see it, the best way to combat injustice is to not pervert it with any other words. Call injustice for what it is, call it on every side and form it comes in. Labeling it "woke" makes injustice inherently exclusive. Not a good thing. If more people were just told "you can succeed" I think we would see much smaller disparities, if at all in the country.
NOT TRUE, very often a person with bad parents or even no parents at all, will find support and care from friends, neighbors, aunts, uncles, cousins etc.
@@GebreMMII how am I part of the problem because i'm white? what in the fuck kind of world are we living in where you can't realize THAT is a fucking racist thing to say? you people are utterly deluded to think it's perfectly fine to discriminate against white people because of things done by white people in the past. you're all racists. fuck off
Having a civil discussion should be the norm and unfortunately today's atmosphere is of yelling, talking over people and making empty grandstanding to shut people down. In that context , I give Marc great respect.
John, thank you for your book! While I’ve never viewed myself as a racist and while I’ve lived in more diverse communities all my life, I’ve been actively working towards being an effective anti-racist for the last four years. It’s been painful to see other friends working to undo racism who are being actively shamed just for being white… as if our skin color makes us inherently bad/wrong and unforgivable, it’s hard to stay in the game of undoing racism. I appreciate all that Mark said here as well. It’s so important not to turn a blind eye to the more complex reasons that these paradoxical “woke” tenets demands of us. I appreciate Mark’s invitation to look deeper at our own motivations - why are we doing what we are doing? And are we willing to look at the bigger systems, acknowledge their reality, so as to effect meaningful change. Great conversation! Just wish it was longer.
Vast majority of Americans, black or white, are good people. Only radicals' voices are heard in the news and media, because controversy is attention, and attention is money in the internet.
I'm anti racist by not being racist, if I hear someone being racist, and that includes black people, I politely say that's racist, from there they can do what they want, I'm not gonna bombard them or wrestle them to the ground, it wouldn't help things. In the end, going light seems like the only way to do things, if you over think and call racism where it's not or call a harmless reference to race racist then you become pro racist instead
"as if our skin color makes us inherently bad/wrong and unforgivable, it’s hard to stay in the game of undoing racism." Why? Why does someone's opinion of you change the want to be a "better" person?
@@TNDCBaby thank you for the question. For me it doesn’t. I’m committed. But that’s me. And, when a person is told repeatedly that no matter what they do, it’s not good enough, and because their skin is white, they are automatically a racist… which is strongly angered in most white communities… it’s similar at to any other form of micro-aggression…. Repeated and painful. If they are told that they are benefiting over BIPoC by having white skin because of systemic racism that favors Whites, and that needs to change, I believe most would be totally in board and agree. If a person is repeatedly told that they are stupid, how long before they believe it and stop trying? If a person is told that their actions are unforgivable, how long before they stop trying to gain forgiveness? If a person is told that it doesn’t matter what they do, they will always be a bad person, how long before they stop trying to meet the standard of their accuser? We are all human. Some people can push through. Some people can endure more and rise up regardless of the opinions of others. Those people are our heroes. They are the ones who inspire us to rise higher. And still, most people who endure regular criticism crumble under the weight of the criticism as it’s easy to take repeated criticism to heart. Any form of validation… something like “you are moving in the right direction, AND I hope to see more.” will support the positive intentions and hard work so many White people are doing a there are many on personal journeys to understand what systemic racism truly is - to see history more clearly through the experience of the majority of Black peoples, indigenous people, Asian people, Latinx people, Arabian people, and more… especially because the experience of individuals dies not necessarily match the experience of the group they most closely identify with, and there are so many people who are bi-racial, or for other reasons don’t fit neatly in any of these broad categories, but still have their own experiences of racism. It’s a lot to learn. And of course deeply humbling with waves of heart break. The White people I know can’t stand the history we’ve been born into and we want to change it. Externalized criticism and judgments can become internalized self-criticism and self-judgments. This shuts down progress rather than supporting it. But I work through those challenges because I can’t stand the idea that our future could mirror our past when it comes to systemic racism and injustices. It’s time for the whole world to change and for caste systems to become a thing that only exists in history books.
I don't know Marc's daily experience, but I live in San Francisco and I was at a bar where some approached me and we started talking about a psychology book on symbolism, that, to my knowledge made no reference to race, racism, or blackness (Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious was the title). A black man was drinking alone in a corner and he became incensed at the conversation and went on a tyrade how I was a "liar" and was using psychology to cover up that people with white skin were evil. The point is that this person has been deceived by black activists (including white people as "black activists here), particularly strong in the Bay Area I should mention, and essentially they have short-circuited his brain to where even innocent conversations are modes of persecution. To take it a step further, this man will not go on to own a car dealership. He's not going to get cutting-edge papers written in academia. He won't discover something, or create a beautiful work of art. His own delusions are stunting him mentally, and I don't blame him for drinking alone in the corner of a bar when you've essentially been psychologically destroyed by a bunch of activists making bogus promises attached to fake claims. It doesn't matter if it's white liberals or this new wave of anti-racist black people: this kind of thinking is exacting a huge price on people in the black community.
Some here are giving Marc props for having John on... I'm not sure if his motive wasn't to try to discredit John. All he did was make John's point abundantly clear, giving a living example of obsessive woke racism. Marc is so narrowly focused that he has know idea that he is a living parody of the concept he is rejecting. The look of strained patience John has as he asks what the point of keeping white people "on the hook" is is eloquent. Got the feeling that a lot of students who are slow on the uptake get that look and I expect it goes over their heads just as smoothly as it did with this guy. Just been pantsed and had no clue. Brutal Prof McWhorter, but glorious. Thank you.
Big respect for having John McWhorter on the show. Every one of his answers was excellent. Agree or disagree, but ultimately it's hard to argue with someone whose main mission is to find solutions to the heart of the problem. Fire conversation.
I don't think McWhorter tackles the heart of the problem. I think he evades the heart because he went around it, he's figured out another way that produces better results than fixing the problem would. That's why the woke left cannot understand how he's helping, because they're fixated on that one problem, and not on potential outcomes of other solutions.
That's a recurring theme in his interviews with contrarian guests. Always gotta shut the conversation off when the other guy starts making sense. I appreciate that MLH is one of the few liberal hosts that will actually invite a more heterodox guest, but that 'they're making me take a break' routine is getting pretty old for me. So transparent.
I got that impression as well. Marc wants to overanalyze every move and decision by a white person like “why do you only eat vanilla ice cream”…..and then come up with a racist intent to rationalize it like “they don’t eat chocolate ice cream bc it reminds them of black people”….. lol. John looks at Marc like he just landed off of a plane from Mars. 🤣🤣🤣
Nugga talk for more than 10 minutes but not saying nth. Just a bunch of nothing . Didn't understand shit he saying. The guest was speaking calmly and every word he said was crystal clear and straight to the point ☝️
What a refreshing discussion. I’m a straight white male and I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s and I was raised at that time to be compassionate and empathic towards social justice causes, which I always felt that I was. The movement back then made sense to me. The last 10 years this whole thing seems to have turned upside down and become absurd. Now as a white guy I feel like I’m in a no win position. Shouldn’t white people and black people be working together? It seems to be the movement the last 10 years or so is driving us all apart.
Thank you for allowing this discussion. As an American, middle leaning right, whatever that means, it was refreshing. We all need this. Liked and subscribed. Please have more discussions like this. It sure beats the blocked and reported culture up today. God Bless...love to all.
This video has almost half as many views as the total number of bnc subscribers and all of the comments are noticing how much more coherent and reasonable McWhorter is than Marc. Not a good sign for this channel, but a very good sign for a return to sanity.
Are you kidding me!? In every adversarial debate MLH uses the definition fallacy! Everytime MLH defaults to asking people to define things. If a man does this every time he is challenged what does he actually have to say?
Marc stated that you can be attracted to whomever you want to. Ok so then the why have only dated or been attracted to X is non of anyone’s business right?
Yes and no. It's at least the business of current and future partners and therapists. On the fringe end it's probably the business of friends as we tend to share those things about ourselves and talk to one another about our feelings, motivations, etc and want to know if we're doing something sort of jacked up.
@@TNDCBaby it goes without saying that your current partner or future partners would be interested in who you’re attracted to but even that’s no entirely their business either right? I mean I maybe dating this person, but it doesn’t mean that I have to or should share which type of other people that I maybe attracted to. As as far as folks on the fringes aka outside of my relationships have no business in it without me or my partner sharing it, and I don’t see why it should concern them. The why in this situation shouldn’t have relevance to anyone outside of the relationship.
@@Oldmaster51 Yeah, I would think it's their business. It would be odd not to talk about past loves and relationships. Not on the first date of course. Depending on the makeup of the two people it helps to know if they've dealt with certain situations and it would be good to have open conversations about certain issues that have or could arise. Not sure why it wouldn't be a topic of convo with friends. Friends talk about all sorts of things.
I haven't read the book yet and I like John's M. However, I just find it interesting that no matter what black folk do in this country to help themselves from exercising our right to vote to understanding our history if it's not ok with white people or if white people feel uncomfortable or if they feel or don't agree with how we are bettering ourselves then it's our fault and we are wrong. It's just insane. John is absolutely right we should be continuing to do things to help ourselves. But again even if we did and didn't do anything he said "woke racism is doing" There will still be some White people that would still be there to stop,criticize or stop our progress.
What is more important is, us being proactive or more proactive, in the areas we can control, and be of benefit to us? Which area can give the easiest and greater results more quickly? Even if we all would, or could agree that enslavement and subsequent racism, in all its forms, are the root of all our problems, does that mean, that addressing this root cause alone, can totally solve our problems? Don't we add to our problems? We can debate how much, but it would be prudent and certainly helpful, if we corrected those things that need correcting, that we are responsible for and can control, and then we would have a better gauge, of how much responsibility rely on the government/society.
@@siriuslyspeaking9720 You make a really important point. I don’t think John McWhorter makes the best case but I also notice how certain gatekeeping black liberals lose their minds trying to make people like John McWhorter look like an enemy rather than a critical inside voice of correction- right, wrong, or both in McWhorter‘s case.
@@siriuslyspeaking9720 This either/or duality is the problem. For instance, even if you and I differ we don't have to criticize each other's methods. We can both just do what we do. McWhorter invests his energy in criticizing and opposing the efforts of others while pretending to favor a "better" way. I say pretend because I think he really favors the money and accolades he gets from his conservative supporters.
@@xman9190 There is the doing and there is the saying. Not a lot of concrete doing takes place, when we are just discussing. What is mainly being criticized is ideas, as apposed to concrete actions. Actions when effective and correct, will defend themselves. Bad ideas should be challenged, so they don't also become bad actions. It makes no sense to continue to argue, when both sides feel they are correct. The best that can be done is to focus on anything that we can agree on, and work together to correct it. We might find a level of respect for one another, that will allow both sides to reexamine their position, and at least be able to make some balanced compromises. I agree with the sentiment you express, but when one sides sees the other's actions as working against their objective, when this side's methods don't produce positive results, they blame it on the other side. If my theory is correct each side will fail to some degree, because, it will take complimentary actions from both sides. By both sides I mean the individual Black person and us as a group vs. the government and society in general. Therefore, I hold to my point, that we should work independently on that which we are responsible for and can control, and then will see, where we need to exert as much pressure as we can on government and society. In focusing on us first, we in fact strengthen ourselves, and give ourselves more power to exert on government and society. I have no argument against your last point. I see them all as race hustlers on both sides. Hill at the end, gives the old wink wink, to the whole charade. They are all shock- jocking. Does academia pay that bad? It's not because of the pandemic. They were all doing it, long before it. The daily posting and the breaking up long post into short clips, is telling of how desperate they are for clicks. It is shameful and or embarrassing, that great minds are wasted this way. This economic system can't be treating them very favorably either. It's perplexing as to why they defend it so strongly, or are so luke -warm in any criticism of it. I can't help but equate wokeness to Michael Eric Dyson's new book 'Entertaining Race - Performing Blackness'. It's all a big performance. Pretending to speak for all Black people, when we are arguably the most diverse group of people living today. We were diverse, when we were forcibly brought here and have become more so since. There is no one thing, that can be called "Blackness". We too have to find some basic common ground upon which to base our group identity on. Basic human values should be as common as we can get, but even there, we have differing values.
@@siriuslyspeaking9720 McWhorter is speaking specifically about the WORK being done by people he calls "woke on the left". It's not just a debate about ideas. That work involves protests, lobbying the government for programs, policies (like defund the police or repealing 'stop and frisk' and 'stand your ground' laws) and resources, pressuring corporations, etc. I believe the mindset you exhibit is the problem. For some reason you see differing ideas and actions as competing with each other. That seems to me to be a crab in the barrel perspective. Each faction can work their program without judging or competing with people who have a different approach. It's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about continuing to move forward even if it's one step at a time.
The point that’s made about it being the AUTHOR’S FAULT if their work is misinterpreted is wrong. As the country gets more extreme, left AND right, then the reasonable voices in the middle get squeezed out, and those are actually the most important voices to listen to. They are the ones that are thoughtful and willing to engage, not just tow the line.
McWorther does a great job at de-escalating Lamont Hill's frenzy, recognizing the small strawmen and bringing the conversation back to a reasonable discussion. He missed his calling. He should be a therapist.
Basically we need more black people speaking up that there is no such thing as racism and it's great that the police are going after them specifically.
You're sick and you don't even know it. I live in Rome and we study your insanity of anti black hatred. Whether you are black or wt you were formed by a wt supemacist SETTLER COLONIALISM APARTHEID STATE
Wow, I’m impressed!! You had John McWhorter on, a man you have some grave disagreements with, yet you kept it respectful. Next time, I’d love to hear you guys discuss Critical Race Theory and it’s other iteration. You guys disagree there completely, but a respectful exchange between disagreeing sides of the issue is much needed. It’s nice seeing this side of your show, instead of the gotcha segments I’ve seen you do in the past with guests who disagree. Kudos
True. But Marc Lamont Hill couldn't make any valid rebuttals because he's wedding to Woke ideology. When we had interviewers like Larry King, you could see true intellectual give and take. Larry could be convinced of something. Marc was just trying his best to be cool about disagreeing with McWhorter.
@@welcometototalitarianism812 This isn't true at all. He clearly labeled the contradictions a strawman, which in most cases they are. I don't know any black people who exhibit those contradictions except for the most ardent separatists, and they're considered far from "woke."
Identify as a Christ follower I'm not perfect Christian but I acknowledge my sins and I repent That's the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian
A interview conducted where both people show respect to each other but still has challenging questions that are addressed. Mainstream media should take note. Sadly, they will not. ☮️
MLH is a disingenuous interviewer who talks fast, and slips in his bias comment, then before the person can respond he quickly moves on to the next topic overwhelming the person being interviewed (a classic Kent Hovind technique). I nearly spit my coffee out while laughing because Mcwhorter is too smart for that. He catches MLH doing this and gives him an, "uhm hmm", and rolls the convo back to counter MLH's former bias comment. 15:31
You can do whatever you want but we're not talking about people racism we could care less about people being racist because they going to be racist we're talkin about the institutions that we have to live in America with our races
Say it again for all the people who tell us to "stop being a victim" as if this changes how the institutions treat us. It's like telling someone "don't be a victim" before they get hit by a car, as if it will affect how the car destroys that person's body on impact. Perfect example, housing valuation, disparities in hiring rates, disparities in promotions, disparities in investment in predominantly black and brown areas, disparities in loan approval rates for business and personal loans, disparities in sentencing and the application of the law...so on and so on.
I absolutely love listening to John McWhorter and Marc Lamont Hill. I find myself agreeing more with John and disagreeing more with Marc, but Marc's defense of his position does cause me to ponder his words more deliberately. I do agree with Marc that change requires a "buy-in" from the population, but I agree with John that the way to do that is to be more serious about the topics, at hand, and to propose solutions that have a measurable impact. The example of black kids killing each other in the hundreds in inner cities is possibly one of the more poignant examples of the perception of disingenuousness by those who are seeking a better future for black people in America, yet are distracted, themselves, or creating the distraction by invoking a more ethereal element of "systemic racism" or "white privilege." John's whole demeanor is that of trying to unite people to combat a problem together, whereas the rhetoric I see so often from those John is criticizing is that of telling a particular group of people (usually white people) how to think, or how to act when they are called upon, etc. insinuating that if white people would just get out of the way, those black people that legitimately need help would be just fine.
John McWhorter is primarily known as a linguist, author, and commentator, rather than as an activist. He is a professor of linguistics at Columbia University and has written extensively on language, race, and culture. McWhorter is often recognized for his contributions to public discussions on these topics, particularly in his roles as a columnist and a public speaker. While he is an influential figure in these debates, his work tends to be more academic and analytical in nature, focusing on linguistics and social issues, rather than direct activism.
@Nigel1048 why? Because he refuses to be a victim and to tell other AA to do the same? Your own mentality is holding you back from succeeding, not the white man. Sorry buddy.
“I think the challenge, though, John, is that I don’t have the knowledge, awareness, or intellectual capacity that would be sufficient to discuss this topic with you competently. Plus....they are telling me we have to wrap up. So....thanks for joining us, John!”
First of all WOKENESS is something BLACK PEOPLE that were PRO BLACK/MILITANT always used. I first became aware of the term dating back to the late 60's here in NYC.
Most of Marc's arguments are pop culture/conventional wisdom/ lefty talking points that aren't exactly true. This is the root of why we have the same problems 60 years after the start of the Civil Rights movement. People keep arguing over how to fix the symptoms or they're crafting narratives around the causes that don't accurately reflect the history.
It’s almost like these independent groups who say they’re here to help out a specific group of people, always have their own self interests in mind first
I don’t share Marc’s politics. But he argues in good faith and is open the having conversations across the ideological divide. This praiseworthy quality is in short supply these days. Good on you Marc. These sorts of discussions are helpful.
I get social policy but I can say as a black man who has been homeless and now earns close $100,000 a year from truck driving plus stocks..... Social policy i.e. government has not helped me one bit. Unless there is something I didn't know about where government paid for the training I got from trucking school. To that I would say it takes a combination of both social policy and also self-determination by the individual to get a better life for themselves and their family. Before I was homeless I went to college and I got into student loan debt. I thought I was doing the right thing but I had no financial literacy. Traditional education only got me into debt with no roof over my head. Traditional education outside of something to do with science technology engineering and math is almost trivial. Teaching blacks how to make money both with a job and investments is a way to change our plight.
These are my favorite two gentlemen. Although I am always more inclined to agree with McWhorter on EVERYTHING he says, I am so proud of Hill and glad I was able to stumble on his many interviews. These guys are the real deal and they recognize the greatness in each other. It’s like a breath of fresh air!
As a person who doesn't agree with 100% of anyone's views (not just these two but anyone), I deeply respect the way these two men disagreed and communicated their views with each other.
Prof. Mcwhorter for the win 🏆 wisdom, poise, thoughtfulness and an unrelenting search for truth is what makes John someone I truly look up to. Not to mention a charm and humor that helps the medicine go down. Cheers
This is what intelligent people do. Talk with people who challenge your beliefs. While I usually disagree with Marc I do love what he’s doing. You can’t grow if you only talk with people who agree with you. Also not just black people need to see these conversations. All Americans need to. If something impacts one group, it impacts all of us.
What a lively exchange! It was fun to watch. Have there been any new theories or discoveries on the question of young black men killing each other in such disproportionate numbers since this interview on November 18, 2021?
"We’re taught that we’re supposed to identify possible instances of racism in everything that we see and that exercise, and it becomes an exercise, doesn’t have anything to do with helping black people in underserved communities make their lives better. We’re distracted by posturing over activism."
Nailed it.
Problem is that without engaging in such an exercise, people never identify and deconstruct the internalized biases and how those biases manifest through structures in society.
@@draunt7 Identifying and calling out racism where it exists is healthy. But today’s myopic focus on externalities distracts from more difficult yet salient conversations and actions to address racial equality.
Also, speculating on any and every possibility of racial discrimination, sub-conscious or otherwise, really disempowers people from making meaningful change because, for many, it removes the burden of personal responsibility. It’s much easier to say “you need to change” or worse, the ambiguous “they” need to change or “the system” needs to change than to admit “I need to change” or even that I can help my fellow through my own actions. Our time would be better spent taking real steps to build eachother up rather than tear eachother down but it only takes speculation to accomplish the latter while the former entails hard work.
My last thought here is that attempting to root out every instance of racial discrimination is an exercise in futility - a waste of precious time and resources. Unpopular as it may be, there are prejudices rooted in every persons’ mind, whether they’ll admit it or not. It’s just a human trait; a shortcut we take to associate things that appear similar and make assumptions. The question is whether or not the prejudice is acted upon. Identifying those instances doesn’t require an “exercise”. Most people are good and decent, despite what news outlets say, and can spot racist actions for what they are. In past eras racism may have been accepted but for the past several decades, it is generally has not been.
Except it's not, because anti-racism has a comprehensive and varied political platform about what it would take to seriously address institutional racism, a platform that McWhorter wastes no time considering in the book.
@@draunt7 The assumption implicit in your argument is that most people have even a modicum of self awareness, they do not. You have to work within the restrictions of human nature at least. If you think you need society wide self awareness to happen in order for there to be change you will never achieve your desired goal.
@@draunt7 Even with that exercise it will not go away. Put your time and energy into really helping people that need it.
Mad respect to Marc for bringing legit intellectuals who disagree.
Agreed. Marc has a legit forum, and has civil discussions, about real issues.
Yes it is!
If only he had the ability to meet their intellect. Marc is a moron
Also, respect to Marc for making a much superior job as an interviewer than Nathan J Robinson. This is actual excellent work (but way too short).
@Dnomyar Akunawik 🤣 wow. Strong argument on your behalf.
Marc’s logic is so convoluted and tortured that while l’m sure it’s heart felt, it is for me almost impossible to follow. He seems to me the perfect example of black woke that McWorter is talking about.
Marc is in the role of a journalist, J McWhorter is late with his safe white bending of "wokeness", very late.
@@yosquidd242 do u think it's relevant to your ability to reason that you cannot form a coherent argument
@Stuart Mashaal I couldn't follow anything he was saying. How did you interpret that?
@@Billabongbabalog As a failure on your part
@@yosquidd242 Marc is in the role of a journalist? Bwahahaha!!!! 🤣
He’s clearly a activist that tries to spin everything he disagrees with!
it is refreshing to see people who don't necessarily agree with a topic have a pleasant dialogue where both sides do not end up yelling at each other
Great point. But the only reason Marc Lamont Shill is not being condescending here (as he oftentimes is to particular types of guests) is that he respects, as an academic himself, the academic chops of his guest. Otherwise he can be low key condescending and unpleasant. Here he was cautious; treading lightly. But yes, we always welcome a polite dialogue where we don't have to sift through the unpleasantness and loudness to get to the meat of the matter.
@@lhermanus9524 you said that a lot better than I could have....
@@jamesmoore4397 thank you; now and again I manage to say things cogently enough. Peace, sir!
@@lhermanus9524 peace to you as well.
I suspect the reason he is not yelling over him is that he respects him as a person. John maybe a conservative, but I sense he is the kind of person who is a conservative not because of money, but a true believer.
The contrast between Marc L. Hill's frenzied speech and John McWhorter economy of words is staggering. Such elegance in his arguments. Perks of being a linguist, I guess.
shut up you cape wearing suicidal-person saving LD.
@@IGNANT4LIFE I will not. I'm very independent, I don't follow the trends.
@@FrankCostanzasLawyr and the winner is: YOU. well done. :)
@@FrankCostanzasLawyr faith restored in humanity due to your response. Have a great Thanksgiving!
@@FrankCostanzasLawyr all I could hear was Stiller's voice. lmao.
Man, it's very entertaining to see just how speculative Marc Lamont Hill's entire worldview is.
His ideas are rooted in assumption, not proof and evidence. This is what I dislike about his positions.
The entire anti-racist left right now is making all language out to be racist dog-whistles. As though some random white granny who goes to church every Sunday is looking to enslave black folks and keep them from eating. It is an absurdity of the 1st order.
Yes, I'm sure there are racists in the world.. I've met them. But the vast majority are just not that way. And as I've said elsewhere, the Marc Lamont Hill's of the world have not made a good argument against this one very important point: Sub-Saharan Africans who immigrated to the USA are outperforming USA born whites in average income at this point in time. These immigrants are visually indistinguishable from USA born black folks.. so if racism against sub-saharan black people is so pervasive and devastating, why are the African immigrants so successful? Until someone on the left can answer that question, they are not going to get a fair hearing from me. The entire set of arguments hinges on us believing institutional racism exists, yet without any evidence that it does. Just people assuming some motivation and pointing to cherry picked instances rather than doing double blind tests to find the real truth of things.
IF the left can prove my point wrong, I'll listen. But so far, I only hear crickets.
Wokeness has a Strong element of narcissism.
Well said.
Wokeness is an idea that was changed to discredit other ideas or institutions. You folks need to stop playing checkers and learn chess.
Makes sense because it's very post-modern and critical, so "readings" of everything are "problematized" and rejected and only the self remains. If you've got 45 minutes, check out Michael Sugrue's lecture on Lyotard (it's here on RUclips). It's about 30 years old but is very prescient (and entertaining!) in explaining a lot of the intellectual power struggles of today. The project is to basically propagate a norm of critically delegitimizing any "narrative" based on authority, consensus, etc. John's idea of "let's just focus on what works" (i.e., based on evidence and data) is very pragmatic and even scientific, and those (science and pragmatism) "grand narratives" impel the critical animus of post-modern thinkers. That's my rambling summary.
@@svalbard01 I dont think John cares about what works since data and evidence very clearly supports CRT and the idea that the US has systematic racism.
I never understand what people refer to "Wokeness", doe people mean by PC?
I'm a simple man. I see Prof McWhorter and watch.
man's head looks like a chicken nugget
The foolishness of wisdom.
@@jb411000 he speaks from knowledge which he continues to acquire and ponder. Marc is stuck in bigotry.
same
@@edwinamendelssohn5129 the gaslighting is strong with you. The actual bigoted ideas you support, while shunning the antibigoted opinions.
"A white supremacist world" - What a sad statement to make.
And dishonest. It's Meritocracy World which is casually called a White Supremacy World by grifters like Marc, Joy and those on the picture. They all thrive in this world but choose to smear it for their own reasons.
@@m.chumakov1033 Meritocracy, hahahahaha! Comments like this is the real reason these issues are intractable. Burn America to the ground at this point.
@@GoSuMonSteR it's certainly not ONLY a meritocracy, but it is a meritocracy to a large degree. That doesn't change the fact that, for some people, having their merit (or potential merit) become known to the right people, is very difficult. But that's what John is saying, focus on helping people get the merit they deserve and be elevated. Not focus devicively on the myriad ethereal reasons they haven't yet.
@@GoSuMonSteR all you can and want to do is burning and looting. Split is inevitable, brains like yours can't be fixed.
Almost like Barack Obama didn't exist
This ain't as complicated as some would like you to believe.
Just help the poor no matter what colour skin they have as Jeff Bezos and Robert F. Smith are doing fine.
The powers that be are scared that poor Americans will get together and vote out those who have something to gain by you being divided.
Nonsense. Try a little thought experiment -
If a black man said he only dates black women would you consider that racist?
If a white man said he only dates white women would you consider that racist?
If an Asian man said he only dates yellow women would you consider that racist?
And then of course we have the old -
Its fine for black people to call themselves black but what would be the response if someone called an Asian yellow or an Indian brown or a native American red?
The left woke clowns have driven the cause of black people beyond them being the oppressed to the point where some would see them as the oppressors now!
@@davidgreen6490 lol Jesus u are just copy-pasting nonsense. Are u reslly argue that the supposed woke left is trying to be the oppressor.
@@a.m928 No. Can you not read? Or are you a leftist yourself and read words but assign your own meanings to them?
@@davidgreen6490 Oh i can read I am just not very impressed with your nonsense. I am realist.
@@a.m928 What about that post is nonsense?
Answer the three questions I asked.
I totally agree with John McWhorter, we need less conversation and definitely more solutions👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
It’s a very simple point-I agree.
There is no solution so long as white America looks upon its black fellow citizens as stolen property...not quite legitimate Americans, more like immigrants or refugees. It's hard wired in white American collective psyche.
Smart!! I agree with you
It is not about having less conversation. It's about having more of the right conversation.
And you thinks he gives solutions by making wt’s people comfort his first priority than giving the solution. Full of contradictions
Because both Marc and John are measured and willing to have an actual dialogue, I find myself more open to hearing “the other side” of the issue.
Kudos to both men for representing how discourse should take place.
What’s the other side of an injustice issue?
@@johnpichon689 It's not an "other side". They're on the same side, just disagreeing with how to solve the issue.
You didn't read the book or listen very closely.
@@blainenewby you idiot I’m referring to the person who made this comment we’re under, mentioning the other side.. If you can read very closely I am questioning this feeds comment not the video
@Denavio Leeks stop spreading lies. Even if that were true, which it isn't, you are just saying that so you can runaway from the conversation. It's easier to disprove someone if you can just discredit them for who might pay them and not for their actual ideas. It would seem You're apart of that religion John talks about.
@@johnpichon689 Injustice issues can have more than one legitimate side. It isn't always injustice on one side and justice on the other. There can be two sides, both aligned with justice, with competing strategies for achieving it.
If you've never been attracted to a black person it is anti-blackness? 😂 What nonsense is Marc on? I'm black and this is even absurd to me.
You missed his point. Marc touched upon the internalization of whiteness being seen as superior. Not being attracted to a black person is due to racial conditioning of the idealization of white beauty. Saying is racist is simplistic; it's more about learning how much we have all internalized racist ideas, attitudes, and norms. How is someone going to say that out of all the black people in the world, they are not attracted to any of them? That doesn't even make sense logically. Do the research, black women are seen as less desirable than white women. This isn't anything new. It's the reason why Denzel refused to kiss Julia Roberts on sceen. Read the interview where he talked about the importance of resisting that reinforcement of white women being desirable over black women.
@@kamsolusar8529 There are so many types of blacks. I’ve lived in Africa and different ethnicities have different physical characteristics, and while some are very similar to caucasians but with darker skin, some have very different features. As a white man, I’ve felt attracted to the former (there are some very fine black women) but not the later. Is it white supremacy or just the fact I have a certain standard of beauty?
@@YouJGSousa you can't divorce your preferences from the context of your society. We are all shaped by it. Why do white women get idealized in the media? That doesn't happen because they're "objectively" more attractive. We've all been conditioned by the systems of white supremacy. Why is it when you go to India and Pakistan, there are commercials for skin lightening products? Because anti-Blackness is global. Closer you are to black, the less attractive you are according to white supremacy.
@@kamsolusar8529 “conditioned by white supremacy”…. Yeah, that’s it. Bye, I have zero patience for this type of talk.
@@YouJGSousa Yeah, take a critical race theory class. You're struggling because you're uneducated.
Marc L. Hill is as woke as f**k, but he has the decency and the courage to bring to his show (time and time again...) smart and eloquent ppl who think differently
I always say not one person or way is correct and that we need all them points of view! Lord knows I couldn't do this Martin Luther's way but I could follow the teaching of Malcolm X or Garvey. We don't need one plan we need a number of them as a people to be successful.
If you think that this brothers woke you are sadly mistaken. Constantly being a victim of something we weren't there for is the exact opposite. Yeah it feels good to see a brother on the screen sounding smart but the message and the narrative is disgusting and holding us back. We have a finite reservoir of things we can take on. So its a complete foolish to be stuck of something that happened to others in the past. Here's one why are folks from every continent wants to come here huh. Why is it that immigrants come here do better and dont complain about the same things. We look so stupid fighting for what the "woke" are. Remember gods watching and he doesn't listen to excuses.
@@Yournamehere1009 Others in the past? Woke is noting how the past has impacted our present which is what Marc tends to do.
@@bellison74 ; Well said ; all black don’t think the same way. We need more open debate among black who want the same ends but have different ways of getting there.
@@marleyj7711 as long as we don't war with one another and keep it all love with forward movement we will get there.
Hill seems to think that putting meat on those contradictions means that the contradictions disappear...they don't, they grow fatter and ugly.
And I know he presents that "we'll blame the white man" bit at the end as a joke, but...I really think it's *not* a joke given all the other things he's said about white people.
Hill was being tongue-in-cheek but it definitely isn’t a parody of what he really believes. “Keeping white people on the hook” is a lucrative industry that serves all kinds of purposes except helping black people.
True that.
Well said. But I think in a sense what’s happening is that John is saying the OUTCOME is a contradiction whereas Marc is arguing that the INTENTION is not. I tend to agree with the McWhorters of the world because I find the current, cultural, racial conception today to be a frenzied series of contradictions that do no good but I get that Marc is arguing that in their fetal state, independent of cultural movements, these “contradictory” ideas are ultimately born out of us just trying to be thoughtful about all our actions. But John is trying to say okay Marc but everything is negative or “racist” if you put it under a microscope. Solving these problems doesn’t require that level of scrutiny. It’s no wonder this woke stuff originated in college classes decades ago. It really reminds me of an English class exercise where any action or character can be anywhere on the moral barometer depending on the deconstructionist lens under which you view them.
@@tomatoesandradiowire482 I guess you can say: anything is possible in the social realm *in theory* , but when you begin to apply hypothesis to reality and they either conflict with it or with each other, then you're going to have to drop them, or think of a new hypothesis to test (and the *testing* is the most important bit).
@@niriop 100%. But we can't even reach that step because now "objectivity" and "scientific reason" are each various, but unequivocally condemnable, shades of "white supremacy."
This is the most refreshingly thoughtful and thorough discussion I’ve heard on McWhorter’s newest work yet. Mr Hill strikes the perfect balance between respect, debate, and authentic research.
McWhorter is right. Everything is view from a racial lens and the examples he shows in the book are on point. For Hill to continue pushing the issue shows a perfect example of these dynamic at play. Dammed if you do and equally Dammed if you don’t.
Not just for whites. I feel for well-spoken and hard working members of the black community who are called Oreo and other things to degrade them.
ruclips.net/video/934zhJFIn8c/видео.html
Why don you focus on the third world country I’m sure you fled from
Everything about America has been racial you anti black bigot
If the shoe fits
Mr Hill credit to you, free speech is still alive.
Apparently free speech is still allowed however; this professor seams to thick people calling out on going issues of racism, means you are "Woke" or "Virtua signalling"
This professor also said that Critical Race Theory is teaching black people to think all white people evil and all black people are victims of racism.
Critical has absolutely NOTHING to do with demonizing all white people, Critical Race Theory, is a university text study, it's focuses on institutional and systemic structures in America that discriminated against none white people.
Especially in the justice system and law enforcement.
You do realise that only goverment can censor. Most people that bitch about free speech have no idea what it is or how its actually restricted.
@@ryancummins8067 thats Mcworter way of silencing people. Shoot the messenger. MLK was apperently woke then and virtue-signaling.
@@a.m928 CNN, META/FB, GOOGLE and NBC censor regularly.
Mcwhorter knows full well that this presenter is missing the point and frankly woke. But he goes on in the hope of reaching the audience.
Otherwise his demeanour would be more ruthless.
The man has to sell copies, at the end of the day
Yup.
As a white person living in a $10,000 house in murder central Lamont doesn't seem to care about black people in the hood the way McWhorter does. He wants to just talk about the right-wing and talk about some high minded idealistic shit that does nothing except make rich people feel good. My husband does more good bc he is mechanically very gifted, a savant of mechanics and every trade and we live where he gets to help people bc in the hood class issues are the main issue. Rich people can't understand that having a great free mechanic that will take the time to teach you while he does it if you are interested can really save someone's day or week or month. Poor people having a car break down or plumbing or electrical problem can really make a person feel so overwhelmed enough to just give up. They want to make us hate each other starting with the children and that is what I would do if I hated black people. I was on the left most of my life and what they are doing is going to make everything worse for everyone except the ruling establishment. McWhorter may be rich and not very hood like but he genuinely cares and I don't believe that about Lamont bc he doesn't care about solutions. He glosses over the contradictions as if they aren't important but in real life a woke person will just say to a white girl she fetishizes black men and not even know anything about her except she is dating a black man. They don't talk it over in some high minded discussions. My white unarmed neighbor was killed by cops last yr and it got 20 secs local news. 18 of the 20 in my state killed by cops in 2020 were white and most had no bodycam including those with knives as the weapon and that's all I know bc none were covered more than 20 secs. Black people kill more white people than white people kill black people and it never gets covered and considering there are way more whites so they just don't kill more of us in real numbers it's disproportionately really high. It's sad bc I hate saying this but people need to realize that all they are doing is the bidding of the ruling class who wants us to hate each other. Sorry, white people aren't hunting black people in the streets bc if we are we are some piss poor hunters killed more by the prey more than there are hunters to kill. Most white folks know this and most of us we let it go bc most of us really do understand we need to work together. I was pulled off the street and raped and being choked to death when a man was coming and he ran off. When police wanted me to do a line-up of a suspect in a similar case I wouldn't do it bc I truly lost his face in my mind. After telling them they still pressured me to do a line-up and I told them only DNA would ID him and they said if I didn't point someone out my rape kit wouldn't be processed. This was in 1998. I sleep just fine I never got justice because I didn't cause an injustice by doing a line-up. I am not out to get black people bc one individual that happened to be black tried to kill me. I know white men do that stuff too. But, I am not going to pretend that there is a thing called "whiteness" and it is all bad and evil. No! I will just care about my all my neighbors who don't talk this shit. Even if I agreed with all of it; nothing would change in this hood for anyone. In fact, they are wasting time worrying about what little thing white people might think so no politicians ever have to come up with actual solutions bc they don't want it to be better bc they need us divided. I have heard about 20 shootings from my livingroom since 2020 and maybe one wasn't black and Lamont doesn't have to worry about it because he doesn't see it. I do. I don't care about blaming black people for it like they would say a racist would. No, I just know something needs to happen here and if you will not even talk about it bc the evil right-wing will use it then what? It's like rich people want to win some ideological war and don't care how many people die as long as the right-wing can't point to black on black crime. You can address it without blaming a whole race. Who cares if some right-wing person says anything? Most of the time the right-wing seems to care more than anyone else bc the left pretends it's not happening which is far worse and shows just how little they care about black people in the hood.
@@theblindprogrammer he could have easily gone the woke route and made money but his books are so thoughtful and has actual solutions. I live in a $10,000 house in murder central and the left only cares about going after people for words they say and don't ever really care about solutions bc in this hood regardless of race most problems are class based. Hell, the only unarmed person killed here was my white neighbor last year and it got 20 secs local news but I still will say this hood has problems that are class based. Whatever some average white people with no power think about race is never going to make anyone's lives better in this hood. The left tried to Kenosha this hood and black men with guns sent them packing before they made it a quarter block in. The left expects us to get mad the right went to the Capital, please at least they didn't come here to protest and riot against poor people bc that's all that is here and the establishment hoped they would get in and burn it all down and the white folk would have gotten arrested and gone viral as white supremacists if we forced them out using guns so it was up to the blacks to save the hood from spoiled suburban kids who would go home and sleep in a neighborhood they would never destroy and riot in. I really appreciate they saved the hood. The left has no idea how many people they are losing over this and black people are not a monolith at all and plenty do not like the left. The left ignores the major problems here bc they just care about winning an ideological war on Twitter. Can't care about the 20 shootings I have heard from my livingroom since 2020 and the insane rise in murders all over this country bc the right-wing might say some shit about black on black crime. Can't lose a one-day Twitter war. That's how I think of Marc. McWhorter doesn't care about ideological wars on Twitter that are meaningless here in this hood. He cares about actual real solutions and knows the woke bullshit is a huge wall in the way.
Bruh he’s a journalist. He’s supposed to ask hard questions. He wasn’t attacking John. He was posing oppositional questions that allowed John to defend his arguments. That’s what a good journalist does.
More conversations, less vitriol. I’m a fan of Mcwhorter and I respect Mr. Hill for talking to people with conflicting ideas.
Dr. Hill
@@KCal1213lol… what a joke
@@malvolio01 the joke is the fact that you wish you had doctor before your name. 😂😂🖕🏾
A voice of reason love John.
He is not a voice of reason for us blacks who refuse to just turn the other check on white supremist racism born In America. I guess we just made it all up? There's no racism going on no way! John is a coward. As for you mary you know danm well better the truth about America. We ALL KNOW!
P.s. piss on my leg and tell its raining. That's America in a nutshell.
@@fallon5775 he keeps repeating - also in this interview - that racism exists for the slow learners like you but I can see this is a futile endavour
@@fallon5775 He is a voice of reason for me
@@fallon5775 Spend the rest of your life being a victim. I hope it works out for you.
I appreciate how straight forward John is. He's easy to understand because his points are logical and usually self-evident. Marc uses fancy sounding words that mean very little in context, to try to confound his perceived opponent. If you really listen to him you're left asking, WTF did he just say? It's often sweet-sounding nonsense. Michael Eric Dyson is a master of this trickery as well. Luckily John is too intelligent to be dragged into the murky depths of Marc's illogical ideological arguments.
I thought it was just me asking WTF did this dude just say. That's how you know he's full of shit, or at the very least regurgitating a narrative.
Serving word salads all day, fresh off top, who wants some? 😄😂
Only a fool or someone who’s been living most of his/her life inside their rectum would try to bamboozle with language a Professor of Linguistics!!
You are absolutely right.
I say “WTF did he say?” At least once during any session with MLH! The man seems to have a very limited understanding of the concepts he’s touting.
Lemont is a lightweight, and it shows when speaking to a true intellectual like John.
Yeah. Lemont looked out of his depth.
Agreed. I expect a PhD to be able to articulate better arguments.
@@Bornearth75 Some of those PhDs are handed out pretty casually.
Lemont is weak as hell. Agree so much with your statement
Disagree
This was an excellent discussion. My highest complements to both - I am partial to John McWhorter since I have read him for years on his popularization of Linguistic theories. But the push back from John Hill was measured and logical. This is a model how discussions should be conducted
I agree almost completely with John, but i really respect how MLH approached this conversation. Respect to both men.
Well Marc actually opened with some extremely disingenuous points about Johns intentions, so i actually think his approach was rather nasty.
In general he seems to be a gotcha-man who sneers at his opponents while describing their positions.
But sure, johns own politeness and directness kept him in line here.
And here's the problem with Hill's argument: "We need the support of white allies...blah, blah, blah." No, we don't. That "support" has done us more harm than good. We need to promote black agency and development. We are capable of self-governance and self-sufficiency. The constant drumbeat of "We can't because the white man...." isn't helpful. We don't need housing policy. We need the economic development that allows us to buy, develop, and live where we want. I'm black. My family and friends are black. We all own houses - sometimes multiple houses. It's not a policy issue.
Agreed ... struggling communities need to unify and support each other as best they can. That said, we also need everyone's help (federal/local government, business community, etc.). Isolationism has never helped.
Sure you do as white allies tend to still hold power when it comes to, at the very least, making change in writing. We can do chunk of work but it is not a single race solution.
How has the civil rights movement done more harm than good? Affirmative action? EEOC? Title VII? I agree that we need to promote agency for all people, but this is also a cultural/education issue. People coming here from Africa and the West Indies make more money on average than white people. Education is the key variable ... not race.
This is a rejection of the fact that the economic system is artificial, we created it and continue to create it. What you’re saying is “a minority of blsck people have managed to succeed in an economic system designed for most people to lack dignity or security and many to be in utter poverty, so just ignore the game being rigged and play the game better”. Imo you’re close to the answer though - black politics is a mirage because being black is less determinative of your interests than your economic situation. Diddy and jay z and Obama share more interests with klansmen billionaires than they do with the average working class black person. Upper middle class black lawyers and surgeons and car dealership owners have more in common with similarly situated white people than the black poor. In the past when legal outright discrimination and Jim Crow were in effect it made sense to have total racial solidarity. Now the issues are primarily economic. Even in the mass incarceration boom black college grads are no more likely to go to jail than they used to be. But high school and below black men are waaayyy more likely to go to jail than they were pre mass incarceration. It didn’t affect the black rich. Raising wages for all the black women workint minimum wage jobs is actively bad for black people who are upper middle class all the way up to billionaires. Same with universal healthcare, raising social security, anything that would be good for most regular black people is bad or irrelevant to rich black people. There is no shared interest.
@@JonDasBoot affirmative action doesnt help, lowering the standard never helps the individual.
Our people need to hear more people like John McWhorter speak. I'm so tired about hearing about the "white racist boogeyman" the past 6 years its getting sickening at this point. I also liked that he basically pointed out the 3 new age "race hustlers"......I'm not sure people like them even want a real solution to the issues because if they can't constantly complain about racism then they won't have a job/position.
Racist boogeyman? Are you saying there is no such thing as racism?
@@MrBarnaby23 C'mon, really? Nobody said that. Use your brain man and critical think for a sec, that is the exact replay race hustlers use.
That's exactly what that means. Is a Boogeyman real?
What do you think the real solution is?
No, he is full of it. White supremacy is the underpinning of every white interaction with the non-white world.
Props to Marc L. Hill for bringing someone on his show that he knew would best him.
Not a competition. These issues are complex and so far, no one person or entity has the entire solution.
Marc Lamont Hill didn't lose to him; see my post about the problems with McWhorter and his inability to think deeply.
@@leronharrison1110 really? Jonh who is part of a duo on BloggingheadsTV and talks deeply about race and racism ...for hours...weekly...for years. John also has written several books on race and racism. Challenged Kendi X, HNJones, Di Angelo etc in their positions.
Yeah you sound like know nothing about John.
@@RonnieD1970 Really. Again read my post and the criticism contained there.
@@darrylpete7551 What McWhorter was saying just made sense and spoke to the complexity as well as the beneficial value of some issues over others. Hill is an ideologue and bent on defending his ideological beliefs regardless of how reasonable or practical the critique of them may be. It seemed like a competition because even though McWhorter was making clear practical sense, Hill flat out said he disagreed with him -even though he couldn't say why and had nothing to counter his arguments with. He just...disagreed.' That's a competitive stance. A priori.
I so agree with John. What are the outcomes of all this “wokeness.” That are tangible to everyday people?
Abraham Lincoln, the original RINO, catered to "wokeness" which led to the War of Northern Aggression. As a result, black people lost the benefit of slavery and everyone became miserable.
One hopes it translates to everyday interactions. It means less assuming a lot of shitty things about people and being more aware when it comes to certain interactions. It means less closed doors and more open dialogue and cooperation.
@@TNDCBaby If that's the goal, wokeness is certainly not how we get there. Anyone who has been paying attention to how woke people behave knows the vast majority of them do not welcome dialog from opposing viewpoints. This is why there are many comments on this video commending Marc for inviting this man. This kind of thing just isn't common in the "woke" space.
@@eazzii_m5408 That's my view of what can happen.
I think some of us are getting too caught up on what we see on tv. "woke" people are the random folks you see everyday and you won't know it until you have a conversation with them about specific topics.
The dialogue I'm guessing that you've seen are random shows whose intent is to get high ratings so, yes, they're going to be more combative than average.
The topics can also be tied to pain, trauma, and other trigger points that bring out the worst in people because the "other side" can often be someone denying stats, your lived experiences, and at the extreme, your humanity.
Wokeness , in its simplest form, is being aware of injustice. That awareness shouldn't stop anyone from wanting to keep working on fixing very obviously flawed and outdated systems.
@@TNDCBaby I have a couple questions for you. What about the "system" is outdated? Why say "woke" instead of injustice if that is the definition of woke? I grew up in the hoods of The Bronx and Brooklyn. The people who did not concern themselves with "woke" culture were the ones who succeeded. The ones who placed much stock into "wokeness" felt too much of the world was against them, so they decided not to even try. The way I see it, the best way to combat injustice is to not pervert it with any other words. Call injustice for what it is, call it on every side and form it comes in. Labeling it "woke" makes injustice inherently exclusive. Not a good thing. If more people were just told "you can succeed" I think we would see much smaller disparities, if at all in the country.
You can’t lie to yourself…. If your your parents don’t care, no one will. Society and the government cannot replace parents’ care and wise upbringing.
NOT TRUE, very often a person with bad parents or even no parents at all, will find support and care from friends, neighbors, aunts, uncles, cousins etc.
The more Marc talks, the more I agree with some of John's points.
Likewise.
marc is just flat out stupid. he says so much and at the same time say nothing.
You’re still a part of the problem.. at least he sounded genuine in his inquiry
@@GebreMMII how am I part of the problem because i'm white? what in the fuck kind of world are we living in where you can't realize THAT is a fucking racist thing to say? you people are utterly deluded to think it's perfectly fine to discriminate against white people because of things done by white people in the past. you're all racists. fuck off
@@MaulScarreign I didn’t say it was bc you’re white..
McWhorter needs to stick to literature
It's funny to watch a shill pretend to interview a thoughtful man.
John McWhorter is so much smarter than this disingenuous narrow-minded ideologue it's not a fair debate.
John Mcwhorter is a very righteous human being with a very refined intelligence....he would be a wonderful neighbor .
Marc may be a thinly veiled neo Marxist, but is one of the few willing to have guest on that can challenge him. I respect that.
Having a civil discussion should be the norm and unfortunately today's atmosphere is of yelling, talking over people and making empty grandstanding to shut people down. In that context , I give Marc great respect.
@@kg356 Hey Kg, what's vulgar Marxism ? Can you tell me ?
Old white guy here. He is 100% right. I love all and avoid some. Avoid people that will do you harm.
John, thank you for your book! While I’ve never viewed myself as a racist and while I’ve lived in more diverse communities all my life, I’ve been actively working towards being an effective anti-racist for the last four years. It’s been painful to see other friends working to undo racism who are being actively shamed just for being white… as if our skin color makes us inherently bad/wrong and unforgivable, it’s hard to stay in the game of undoing racism.
I appreciate all that Mark said here as well. It’s so important not to turn a blind eye to the more complex reasons that these paradoxical “woke” tenets demands of us. I appreciate Mark’s invitation to look deeper at our own motivations - why are we doing what we are doing? And are we willing to look at the bigger systems, acknowledge their reality, so as to effect meaningful change.
Great conversation! Just wish it was longer.
Vast majority of Americans, black or white, are good people. Only radicals' voices are heard in the news and media, because controversy is attention, and attention is money in the internet.
@@theblindprogrammer truth!
I'm anti racist by not being racist, if I hear someone being racist, and that includes black people, I politely say that's racist, from there they can do what they want, I'm not gonna bombard them or wrestle them to the ground, it wouldn't help things. In the end, going light seems like the only way to do things, if you over think and call racism where it's not or call a harmless reference to race racist then you become pro racist instead
"as if our skin color makes us inherently bad/wrong and unforgivable, it’s hard to stay in the game of undoing racism."
Why? Why does someone's opinion of you change the want to be a "better" person?
@@TNDCBaby thank you for the question.
For me it doesn’t. I’m committed. But that’s me.
And, when a person is told repeatedly that no matter what they do, it’s not good enough, and because their skin is white, they are automatically a racist… which is strongly angered in most white communities… it’s similar at to any other form of micro-aggression…. Repeated and painful.
If they are told that they are benefiting over BIPoC by having white skin because of systemic racism that favors Whites, and that needs to change, I believe most would be totally in board and agree.
If a person is repeatedly told that they are stupid, how long before they believe it and stop trying? If a person is told that their actions are unforgivable, how long before they stop trying to gain forgiveness? If a person is told that it doesn’t matter what they do, they will always be a bad person, how long before they stop trying to meet the standard of their accuser?
We are all human.
Some people can push through. Some people can endure more and rise up regardless of the opinions of others. Those people are our heroes. They are the ones who inspire us to rise higher. And still, most people who endure regular criticism crumble under the weight of the criticism as it’s easy to take repeated criticism to heart. Any form of validation… something like “you are moving in the right direction, AND I hope to see more.” will support the positive intentions and hard work so many White people are doing a there are many on personal journeys to understand what systemic racism truly is - to see history more clearly through the experience of the majority of Black peoples, indigenous people, Asian people, Latinx people, Arabian people, and more… especially because the experience of individuals dies not necessarily match the experience of the group they most closely identify with, and there are so many people who are bi-racial, or for other reasons don’t fit neatly in any of these broad categories, but still have their own experiences of racism. It’s a lot to learn. And of course deeply humbling with waves of heart break. The White people I know can’t stand the history we’ve been born into and we want to change it.
Externalized criticism and judgments can become internalized self-criticism and self-judgments. This shuts down progress rather than supporting it.
But I work through those challenges because I can’t stand the idea that our future could mirror our past when it comes to systemic racism and injustices. It’s time for the whole world to change and for caste systems to become a thing that only exists in history books.
I don't know Marc's daily experience, but I live in San Francisco and I was at a bar where some approached me and we started talking about a psychology book on symbolism, that, to my knowledge made no reference to race, racism, or blackness (Archetypes and the Collective Unconscious was the title). A black man was drinking alone in a corner and he became incensed at the conversation and went on a tyrade how I was a "liar" and was using psychology to cover up that people with white skin were evil.
The point is that this person has been deceived by black activists (including white people as "black activists here), particularly strong in the Bay Area I should mention, and essentially they have short-circuited his brain to where even innocent conversations are modes of persecution.
To take it a step further, this man will not go on to own a car dealership. He's not going to get cutting-edge papers written in academia. He won't discover something, or create a beautiful work of art. His own delusions are stunting him mentally, and I don't blame him for drinking alone in the corner of a bar when you've essentially been psychologically destroyed by a bunch of activists making bogus promises attached to fake claims.
It doesn't matter if it's white liberals or this new wave of anti-racist black people: this kind of thinking is exacting a huge price on people in the black community.
Some here are giving Marc props for having John on... I'm not sure if his motive wasn't to try to discredit John.
All he did was make John's point abundantly clear, giving a living example of obsessive woke racism. Marc is so narrowly focused that he has know idea that he is a living parody of the concept he is rejecting.
The look of strained patience John has as he asks what the point of keeping white people "on the hook" is is eloquent. Got the feeling that a lot of students who are slow on the uptake get that look and I expect it goes over their heads just as smoothly as it did with this guy.
Just been pantsed and had no clue.
Brutal Prof McWhorter, but glorious.
Thank you.
Big respect for having John McWhorter on the show. Every one of his answers was excellent. Agree or disagree, but ultimately it's hard to argue with someone whose main mission is to find solutions to the heart of the problem. Fire conversation.
I don't think McWhorter tackles the heart of the problem. I think he evades the heart because he went around it, he's figured out another way that produces better results than fixing the problem would. That's why the woke left cannot understand how he's helping, because they're fixated on that one problem, and not on potential outcomes of other solutions.
@@chimyshark Very interesting perspective. I appreciate that. Thanks for sharing.
“They’re making me take a break.” “They’re making me wrap.”
That's a recurring theme in his interviews with contrarian guests. Always gotta shut the conversation off when the other guy starts making sense. I appreciate that MLH is one of the few liberal hosts that will actually invite a more heterodox guest, but that 'they're making me take a break' routine is getting pretty old for me. So transparent.
Love the look on McWhorter's face as Hill continues with pablum, " Good Lord, what is this fool saying?"
I got that impression as well. Marc wants to overanalyze every move and decision by a white person like “why do you only eat vanilla ice cream”…..and then come up with a racist intent to rationalize it like “they don’t eat chocolate ice cream bc it reminds them of black people”….. lol. John looks at Marc like he just landed off of a plane from Mars. 🤣🤣🤣
Nugga talk for more than 10 minutes but not saying nth. Just a bunch of nothing . Didn't understand shit he saying. The guest was speaking calmly and every word he said was crystal clear and straight to the point ☝️
What a refreshing discussion. I’m a straight white male and I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s and I was raised at that time to be compassionate and empathic towards social justice causes, which I always felt that I was. The movement back then made sense to me. The last 10 years this whole thing seems to have turned upside down and become absurd. Now as a white guy I feel like I’m in a no win position. Shouldn’t white people and black people be working together? It seems to be the movement the last 10 years or so is driving us all apart.
Thank you for allowing this discussion. As an American, middle leaning right, whatever that means, it was refreshing. We all need this. Liked and subscribed. Please have more discussions like this. It sure beats the blocked and reported culture up today. God Bless...love to all.
This video has almost half as many views as the total number of bnc subscribers and all of the comments are noticing how much more coherent and reasonable McWhorter is than Marc. Not a good sign for this channel, but a very good sign for a return to sanity.
Are you kidding me!? In every adversarial debate MLH uses the definition fallacy!
Everytime MLH defaults to asking people to define things. If a man does this every time he is challenged what does he actually have to say?
“They will take your argument” - yeah that’s valid for everything. Maybe we shouldn’t write any books about serious issues.
He lost me at "There making me take a break" mid sentence.
Marc stated that you can be attracted to whomever you want to. Ok so then the why have only dated or been attracted to X is non of anyone’s business right?
Yes and no. It's at least the business of current and future partners and therapists. On the fringe end it's probably the business of friends as we tend to share those things about ourselves and talk to one another about our feelings, motivations, etc and want to know if we're doing something sort of jacked up.
@@TNDCBaby it goes without saying that your current partner or future partners would be interested in who you’re attracted to but even that’s no entirely their business either right? I mean I maybe dating this person, but it doesn’t mean that I have to or should share which type of other people that I maybe attracted to. As as far as folks on the fringes aka outside of my relationships have no business in it without me or my partner sharing it, and I don’t see why it should concern them. The why in this situation shouldn’t have relevance to anyone outside of the relationship.
@@Oldmaster51 Yeah, I would think it's their business. It would be odd not to talk about past loves and relationships. Not on the first date of course. Depending on the makeup of the two people it helps to know if they've dealt with certain situations and it would be good to have open conversations about certain issues that have or could arise.
Not sure why it wouldn't be a topic of convo with friends. Friends talk about all sorts of things.
"Buy the book from a Black, independent bookstore" said without a hint of care. Garners no reaction on here from what I can see. Wow!
John is the future
I haven't read the book yet and I like John's M. However, I just find it interesting that no matter what black folk do in this country to help themselves from exercising our right to vote to understanding our history if it's not ok with white people or if white people feel uncomfortable or if they feel or don't agree with how we are bettering ourselves then it's our fault and we are wrong. It's just insane. John is absolutely right we should be continuing to do things to help ourselves. But again even if we did and didn't do anything he said "woke racism is doing" There will still be some White people that would still be there to stop,criticize or stop our progress.
What is more important is, us being proactive or more proactive, in the areas we can control, and be of benefit to us? Which area can give the easiest and greater results more quickly? Even if we all would, or could agree that enslavement and subsequent racism, in all its forms, are the root of all our problems, does that mean, that addressing this root cause alone, can totally solve our problems? Don't we add to our problems? We can debate how much, but it would be prudent and certainly helpful, if we corrected those things that need correcting, that we are responsible for and can control, and then we would have a better gauge, of how much responsibility rely on the government/society.
@@siriuslyspeaking9720
You make a really important point. I don’t think John McWhorter makes the best case but I also notice how certain gatekeeping black liberals lose their minds trying to make people like John McWhorter look like an enemy rather than a critical inside voice of correction- right, wrong, or both in McWhorter‘s case.
@@siriuslyspeaking9720
This either/or duality is the problem. For instance, even if you and I differ we don't have to criticize each other's methods. We can both just do what we do. McWhorter invests his energy in criticizing and opposing the efforts of others while pretending to favor a "better" way. I say pretend because I think he really favors the money and accolades he gets from his conservative supporters.
@@xman9190 There is the doing and there is the saying. Not a lot of concrete doing takes place, when we are just discussing. What is mainly being criticized is ideas, as apposed to concrete actions. Actions when effective and correct, will defend themselves. Bad ideas should be challenged, so they don't also become bad actions. It makes no sense to continue to argue, when both sides feel they are correct. The best that can be done is to focus on anything that we can agree on, and work together to correct it. We might find a level of respect for one another, that will allow both sides to reexamine their position, and at least be able to make some balanced compromises.
I agree with the sentiment you express, but when one sides sees the other's actions as working against their objective, when this side's methods don't produce positive results, they blame it on the other side.
If my theory is correct each side will fail to some degree, because, it will take complimentary actions from both sides. By both sides I mean the individual Black person and us as a group vs. the government and society in general. Therefore, I hold to my point, that we should work independently on that which we are responsible for and can control, and then will see, where we need to exert as much pressure as we can on government and society.
In focusing on us first, we in fact strengthen ourselves, and give ourselves more power to exert on government and society.
I have no argument against your last point. I see them all as race hustlers on both sides. Hill at the end, gives the old wink wink, to the whole charade. They are all shock- jocking. Does academia pay that bad? It's not because of the pandemic. They were all doing it, long before it. The daily posting and the breaking up long post into short clips, is telling of how desperate they are for clicks. It is shameful and or embarrassing, that great minds are wasted this way. This economic system can't be treating them very favorably either. It's perplexing as to why they defend it so strongly, or are so luke -warm in any criticism of it.
I can't help but equate wokeness to Michael Eric Dyson's new book 'Entertaining Race - Performing Blackness'. It's all a big performance. Pretending to speak for all Black people, when we are arguably the most diverse group of people living today. We were diverse, when we were forcibly brought here and have become more so since. There is no one thing, that can be called "Blackness". We too have to find some basic common ground upon which to base our group identity on. Basic human values should be as common as we can get, but even there, we have differing values.
@@siriuslyspeaking9720
McWhorter is speaking specifically about the WORK being done by people he calls "woke on the left". It's not just a debate about ideas. That work involves protests, lobbying the government for programs, policies (like defund the police or repealing 'stop and frisk' and 'stand your ground' laws) and resources, pressuring corporations, etc.
I believe the mindset you exhibit is the problem. For some reason you see differing ideas and actions as competing with each other. That seems to me to be a crab in the barrel perspective. Each faction can work their program without judging or competing with people who have a different approach. It's not about who's right and who's wrong. It's about continuing to move forward even if it's one step at a time.
Hill's low IQ excuses tire me.
he was so desperate man.. desperate to be right about racism.
The point that’s made about it being the AUTHOR’S FAULT if their work is misinterpreted is wrong. As the country gets more extreme, left AND right, then the reasonable voices in the middle get squeezed out, and those are actually the most important voices to listen to. They are the ones that are thoughtful and willing to engage, not just tow the line.
Saying buy from an independent black bookstore after buying the book on Kindle, that is EXACTLY what John is talking about.
McWorther does a great job at de-escalating Lamont Hill's frenzy, recognizing the small strawmen and bringing the conversation back to a reasonable discussion. He missed his calling. He should be a therapist.
Marc Lamont Hill is one of the Greatest among today's Journalists, Activists, Intellectuals on the planet! I Love this guy!
He's not a journalist, he's an activist
John McWhorter is a wise man
I’m totally with John and find wokery just to be racism reheated but respect to Marc for having the conversation
Basically we need more black people speaking up that there is no such thing as racism and it's great that the police are going after them specifically.
@@sumanadasawijayapala5372 you sound like Cathy Newman
Much respect to Marc for bringing him on the show
Good conversation. Mr McWhorter has focused on a needed point of view. Thanks to both of you!
Watching McWhorter's face as he realizes he's dealing with an intransigent race hustler is interesting.
You're sick and you don't even know it. I live in Rome and we study your insanity of anti black hatred. Whether you are black or wt you were formed by a wt supemacist SETTLER COLONIALISM APARTHEID STATE
@@lf1496 ROME ?
Areyou the Pope ?
Racist,
John McWhorter is a clown
and a right wing shill.
These clowns who use terms like "race hustler" trying to act like they're anything but racist ignorant people.
@@Based_Proletariat Nah, he's an intellectual and you can't counter any of his arguments, which is why you resort to name calling.
Marc needs to read the book again --- but, this time with a different attitude.
Absolutely!! This man could not be any more right
Wow, I’m impressed!! You had John McWhorter on, a man you have some grave disagreements with, yet you kept it respectful. Next time, I’d love to hear you guys discuss Critical Race Theory and it’s other iteration. You guys disagree there completely, but a respectful exchange between disagreeing sides of the issue is much needed.
It’s nice seeing this side of your show, instead of the gotcha segments I’ve seen you do in the past with guests who disagree. Kudos
True. But Marc Lamont Hill couldn't make any valid rebuttals because he's wedding to Woke ideology. When we had interviewers like Larry King, you could see true intellectual give and take. Larry could be convinced of something. Marc was just trying his best to be cool about disagreeing with McWhorter.
@@welcometototalitarianism812 This isn't true at all. He clearly labeled the contradictions a strawman, which in most cases they are. I don't know any black people who exhibit those contradictions except for the most ardent separatists, and they're considered far from "woke."
Stop telling me I'm white and a member of the white tribe. You can identify with tribe but don't tell me I have to.
Identify as a Christ follower I'm not perfect Christian but I acknowledge my sins and I repent That's the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian
A interview conducted where both people show respect to each other but still has challenging questions that are addressed. Mainstream media should take note. Sadly, they will not. ☮️
MLH is a disingenuous interviewer who talks fast, and slips in his bias comment, then before the person can respond he quickly moves on to the next topic overwhelming the person being interviewed (a classic Kent Hovind technique).
I nearly spit my coffee out while laughing because Mcwhorter is too smart for that. He catches MLH doing this and gives him an, "uhm hmm", and rolls the convo back to counter MLH's former bias comment. 15:31
We need more discussions like this, please.
Marc is no match for Mcwhorter
You can do whatever you want but we're not talking about people racism we could care less about people being racist because they going to be racist we're talkin about the institutions that we have to live in America with our races
Say it again for all the people who tell us to "stop being a victim" as if this changes how the institutions treat us. It's like telling someone "don't be a victim" before they get hit by a car, as if it will affect how the car destroys that person's body on impact. Perfect example, housing valuation, disparities in hiring rates, disparities in promotions, disparities in investment in predominantly black and brown areas, disparities in loan approval rates for business and personal loans, disparities in sentencing and the application of the law...so on and so on.
John McWhorter is a FINE Outstanding person.
Kudos Marc! I like these type conversations
I absolutely love listening to John McWhorter and Marc Lamont Hill. I find myself agreeing more with John and disagreeing more with Marc, but Marc's defense of his position does cause me to ponder his words more deliberately. I do agree with Marc that change requires a "buy-in" from the population, but I agree with John that the way to do that is to be more serious about the topics, at hand, and to propose solutions that have a measurable impact. The example of black kids killing each other in the hundreds in inner cities is possibly one of the more poignant examples of the perception of disingenuousness by those who are seeking a better future for black people in America, yet are distracted, themselves, or creating the distraction by invoking a more ethereal element of "systemic racism" or "white privilege." John's whole demeanor is that of trying to unite people to combat a problem together, whereas the rhetoric I see so often from those John is criticizing is that of telling a particular group of people (usually white people) how to think, or how to act when they are called upon, etc. insinuating that if white people would just get out of the way, those black people that legitimately need help would be just fine.
John McWhorter is primarily known as a linguist, author, and commentator, rather than as an activist. He is a professor of linguistics at Columbia University and has written extensively on language, race, and culture. McWhorter is often recognized for his contributions to public discussions on these topics, particularly in his roles as a columnist and a public speaker. While he is an influential figure in these debates, his work tends to be more academic and analytical in nature, focusing on linguistics and social issues, rather than direct activism.
Marc is sweating...John's book hits close to home for him.
This was a great discussion. Respect between both parties.
@Nigel1048 why? Because he refuses to be a victim and to tell other AA to do the same? Your own mentality is holding you back from succeeding, not the white man.
Sorry buddy.
@Nigel1048 Why do you feel this is a war scenario? Who are the opposing sides? In what way was McWhorter a snake?
So glad you had him on. Our community needs to hear this!
Smh
“I think the challenge, though, John, is that I don’t have the knowledge, awareness, or intellectual capacity that would be sufficient to discuss this topic with you competently. Plus....they are telling me we have to wrap up. So....thanks for joining us, John!”
First of all WOKENESS is something BLACK PEOPLE that were PRO BLACK/MILITANT always used. I first became aware of the term dating back to the late 60's here in NYC.
OK, well just like 'social justice warrior,' 'woke' is now a pejorative due to all the dumb
But in one of the most shocking twist in woke history is the fact that the term woke was culturally appropriated from black people lol
Not being sarcastic btw. I really agree with you. It's just funny no one else has pointed this out.
Most of Marc's arguments are pop culture/conventional wisdom/ lefty talking points that aren't exactly true. This is the root of why we have the same problems 60 years after the start of the Civil Rights movement. People keep arguing over how to fix the symptoms or they're crafting narratives around the causes that don't accurately reflect the history.
It is unfortunately so much easier to always play the role of the victim. It is a loser’s game. John has it right.
I’m okay with the Brother’s explanation of what he was trying to evoke in his book.
It’s almost like these independent groups who say they’re here to help out a specific group of people, always have their own self interests in mind first
I don’t share Marc’s politics. But he argues in good faith and is open the having conversations across the ideological divide.
This praiseworthy quality is in short supply these days. Good on you Marc. These sorts of discussions are helpful.
He does engage his adversaries. But he seldom argues in good faith.
Marc is a Towering Intellect
Marc Lamont's face should be on the cover of John McWhorter's book.
I get social policy but I can say as a black man who has been homeless and now earns close $100,000 a year from truck driving plus stocks..... Social policy i.e. government has not helped me one bit. Unless there is something I didn't know about where government paid for the training I got from trucking school. To that I would say it takes a combination of both social policy and also self-determination by the individual to get a better life for themselves and their family. Before I was homeless I went to college and I got into student loan debt. I thought I was doing the right thing but I had no financial literacy. Traditional education only got me into debt with no roof over my head. Traditional education outside of something to do with science technology engineering and math is almost trivial. Teaching blacks how to make money both with a job and investments is a way to change our plight.
These are my favorite two gentlemen. Although I am always more inclined to agree with McWhorter on EVERYTHING he says, I am so proud of Hill and glad I was able to stumble on his many interviews. These guys are the real deal and they recognize the greatness in each other. It’s like a breath of fresh air!
You're admitting you're a racist. Nice. Good 1st step.
As a person who doesn't agree with 100% of anyone's views (not just these two but anyone), I deeply respect the way these two men disagreed and communicated their views with each other.
Fetish: a strong and unusual need or desire for something.
Prof. Mcwhorter for the win 🏆 wisdom, poise, thoughtfulness and an unrelenting search for truth is what makes John someone I truly look up to. Not to mention a charm and humor that helps the medicine go down. Cheers
why can't we be concerned about humanity as a whole?
How can we understand why things are the way they are today if we don't truly understand our history? Can't we handle the truth,
Marc is like nails on a chalkboard, where John patiently observes the jackrabbiting for what it is. Faux intellectual flailing.
John is like a scare crow in a tornado. The dude wrote a book based on straw men. You can tell Hill struggles to take him seriously
This is what intelligent people do. Talk with people who challenge your beliefs. While I usually disagree with Marc I do love what he’s doing. You can’t grow if you only talk with people who agree with you. Also not just black people need to see these conversations. All Americans need to. If something impacts one group, it impacts all of us.
And I bet you didn't learn anything from Marc?
Doesn't Marc ever get tired of getting destroyed in debates like these.
What a lively exchange! It was fun to watch. Have there been any new theories or discoveries on the question of young black men killing each other in such disproportionate numbers since this interview on November 18, 2021?
Being white in a white supremacist world 😂😂 marc is so full of hyperbole!
U.S is a great country, great people. If this guy think he's seen supremacy he didn't travel
"Woke" has been co-opted, refurbished and now misused.