Lackawanna Cut-Off - Part 6: Why the Cut-Off was Built
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- Опубликовано: 15 фев 2017
- This video is about why the Lackawanna Cut-Off was built, replacing a much longer and circuitous route called the "Old Road". We'll visit a number of places along the Old Road in NJ and PA--In NJ, Netcong, Hackettstown, Rockport (site of a major accident in 1925), Washington, Oxford Tunnel, Manunka Chunk Tunnel, Ramseyburg, and Delaware; and in PA, Portland, the Delaware River Viaduct and Slateford Jct. On the Warren Railroad in NJ, we'll visit Hampton Jct. (with the Central RR of NJ) and Changewater. The Warren Railroad and Old Road are one in the same between Washington and Delaware NJ. Video recorded on January 21, 2017. Videographer and editing: Larissa Walsh.
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Thank you for your explanation of the Rockport accident. I was the engineer in Mansfield for 38 years and heard many stories about this accident, including some pictures of the accident in the municipal building, rather morbid quite frankly, but your explanation of the cut-off and why this train was not on it is the first one that makes sense. Legend had it that the cut-off was built for fast milk trains and passenger trains were sent via this route, I always doubted that but your explanation here and other videos have been extremely helpful. I would also like to thank you for the explanation of the old main line at Garrett Mountain. Growing up in Little Falls (Great Notch) that area remains home and your explanation of that is fascinating. thank you.
We would have to examine all the tower records to verify whether the "freight traffic" really was a problem, or just a nonsensical explanation after the fact. I tend to believe it was BS. We know that the re-routing decision was supposedly made before the train got to Scranton. That seems odd. But it will probably remain one of those unanswerable questions because there's no documentation to help us out.
@@LackawannaCutOff I agree with the BS call, I always had a hard time believing that the line was built solely to move milk, it would take a lot of milk to pay that off, but that is how "rural legends" (that is a relocated 'urban legend" are born. It may have been that the diversion was for "a" milk train or two or even three but that was not the explanation, so thanks again.
@@LackawannaCutOff So I am assuming the Steamtown archives doesn't have any old train order/dispatching records from that specific time period? I have wondered if some kind of textual evidence might have been lurking in their massive repository
OUTSTANDING Presentation. I had been so confused about the Lackwanna cut-off so much! Thank you for sharing.
Glad it was helpful!
Awesome video. One of the best presentations I have ever seen. I like the way you travel from location to location and show what it looks like today, along with photos of what it once looked like, and also the way you show where the location is on a map
Yeah Chucks the man!
I'm fascinated. I went to Bergen tech in the early 90's and was in stationary engineering class. We were gifted a steam locomotive that we worked on restoring. I believe it was engine 812 but not sure. My teacher Mr. Vopaseck was an engineer. I climbed inside the steam locomotive boiler to clean it. I cleaned it's tubes. I graduated before they completed it. I'm not sure if it ever ran again.
i love this stuff, my wife is hating on me right now.
Very informative thanks
That’s cool. It’s Engine 385 though. Run up to running every weekend but on display at the Whippany RR Museum. They keep her limber & move her around the yard. She is all fixed up. Go see her! 🚂
@@samanthab1923 No way! I have to go check her out. Thank You.
@@EngineerCatPyro Have fun 🚂
I love that you are taking on that accident outside of Hackettstown!
Outstanding coverage of the history of this line. Many thanks and I hope your enthusiasm keeps you producing further volumes!
Great documentary! The back when photos and current landscape, it's amazing to see! Thanks for sharing your passion.
Absolutely fascninating. Thank you.
Your series is well done and goes a long way to explain what the cutoff was all about. I found something interesting when I learned where the cutoff is. If you go on google earth, you can easily see the roadway and elevation along the way. All was not lost. Thanx Chuck.
Thank you Chuck, having grown up in Landing & Port Morris you answered many questions. Well Done
Wow that train engine in the first picture is a monster! I didn't know the trains that went through those tunnels where that huge!
Excellent video. Great commentary. I love narrated video. I never saw a train on the cutoff. I was always mesmerized by the engineering of both the old road and the cutoff. I'm lucky enough to have been to both old road tunnels. Including the infamous gauntlet
Hi Chuck ! Thanks for making this video.
The ceiling of the right bore has partially collapsed, all the way up to the ground above the tunnel. There is about a 6' diameter hole in the ground.
The waterway that caused all the scouring of the north end is now strongly directed south by a 12' high dam just south of the tunnel exit.
Good job Chuck.
Great videos. Thanks.
Very interesting video story. I am quite familiar with the old road and the cutoff but have never been to many of the locations that you visited. Hopefully one day we will see trains on the cutoff again but its been a very slow process forging tracks West again.
Great video about the Lackawanna cutoff about one of my favorite pre merger railroads, the Lackawanna, The others are the Erie which later became the Erie Lackawanna, the Delaware & Hudson.
I passed by there yesterday in Buttsville and saw the old bridge!
I AM INTERESTED IN ISLAND PARK, BUTTSVILLE DO YOU HAVE ANY PHOTOS OR VIDEO mark_henne@yahoo.com
Hi greetings from Oamaru, south island New Zealand. many thanks for the cool delivery of your unpretentious natural delivery of your vids. I love how American ingenuity like Westinghouse systems span the world. here down the road in Dunedin city we have Hillside Workshops whom back in the day used Westinghouse brake hardware on the steam locos they built...cheers Carl.
Greetings, Carl. Wow, from the other side of the world! I'm glad to hear that you've enjoyed the videos. What kind of rail service do you have on Oamaru? As you can tell, we're fighting to get ours back. Never knew that Westinghouse was that diversified.
Hi Chuck. We had a Dunedin Hillside workshops (worlds most southernmost Scottish city also has the worlds steepest street..Baldwin street.) built steam engine from back in the day which did a tourist run up here. I stood gawking at the front and spotted the Westinghouse Brake system mounted near front. Rail here is stuffed as its only used for general freight. locos last 50 years and beyond wheras trucks last 3 to 5 years due to contracts buy bread producers demanding that truckies have to upgrade every 3 years to maintain a image (what a waste of resources) truck and trailer here maxed out is 30 tonnes at 650 hp. locos used here is the old ''DX'' lasting over 50 years. the rail here was controlled and run by govt which was a dogs breakfast called N.Z.R = New Zealand Railways. it got sold to Investors whom sold it to Wisconsin Central in the ''80's'' whom stripped the guts outta it then it again in short time got sold to Australian Rail company "Toll Rail'' whom ran it to the ground without maintenance then our wise govt purchased it back for more than they sold it for. at some point a Canadian company had a go and made it the most profitable company ever then onsold it with huge profit.. we have a Christchurch to west coast day trip train which is supposed to be a world class product...Carl.
I agree... well spoken... easy to follow ✌🇺🇸
:)
Great Series (except for the audio), thank you for your efforts. Watched all 7 so far in the last few days and will continue
onto the end I am sure........
As a student helicopter pilot in the early 90s we would over fly the "Cut Off" useing the Right of Way as a posssible
emergency LZ (landing zone) corridor when ever practicuable - just incase the Bell 47's (Helicopter) "Ran Out of Steam"........
Also growing up with in earshot of the WB & E in the Tannersville area and walk, biking cross country skiing and Attending
the Submarine Races as freequentoy as possible on the abandoned RoW as a boy. All this perhaps planted a seed of
global curiosity and love for what once was just 12 years before I was hatched........ Thanks Again............
:)
great job
Chuck, I'v always been interested in the the cut off. I live in Bedford, Va. a close friend of mine is Wally Post who was an engineer on the old and new road. We have enjoyed your series very much. Have you ever thought about the Gladstone Branch's history. Thank You Al Boyance
I just said to my son we should take a ride on the Gladstone branch
0:10 Manunka Chunk. I've walked through both bores of that tunnel. They get .... wet.
Oxford is even worse. I'm 6'3" and it was up to my crotch.
I need to watch the other parts
The last part of the bridge you were at was right up the road from where I live now(buttzville bridge) there was a crew of 6 men and 2 of the 6 were killed when a train came thru the oxford tunnel the 3rd guys legs were crushed on the tracks
Chuck, I'm really enjoying the series. My compliments to the videographer. I hope you continue to produce more of these episodes about North Jersey rail. You've answered so many questions. Have you checked out a new (newish) video by John General called "Extra 1104"? It's an excellent treatment of the Rockport train wreck of 1925. I'm subscribed so I'll be looking for more episodes. You really know your stuff.
Thanks, Peter, I have not seen that video yet. There were one or two details that I left out that I had included in an earlier version recorded the week before (which we didn't use for other reasons) that I wish I had included in this version...that O.J. Daniels was the only Pullman porter to have a Pullman car named after him, and that contrary to the Rockport memorial, the locomotive boiler didn't' blow up. I also failed to mention that the fireman died as well. Oh, c'est la vie.
Chuck Walsh .......have enjoyed your history of the cutoff
Have a question about the NYS&W running through Sparta NJ.....
I would like to take some photos along with my 9yr old Grandson....
i love what you are doing an what you have done its so awsome to see a road come back is the cut offf when it cpmes back goina be jus passanger or will it also be freight
Just passenger/tourist with some commuter activity as well.
thanks i was just wondering.thank you for savingthis rail line you have donesomthing very special an you deserve alot of thanks@@LackawannaCutOff
If anyone else is following along with google maps open, the Changewater section about the tall bridge is at 40°44'19.1"N 74°56'28.5"W. Changewater rd & Musconetcong River Rd.
What was the name of the railroad that is on the embankment north of route 46 as you travel from Delaware Water Gap toward Butzville. As you show, at Ramseyburg the "Old Road" and NY S&W were at the same level as Rt 46.
I recall seeing railroad structures while traveling on Rt 31 on the way to Trenton. There is an interesting story as to why the name of Rt 31 was changed from it's original designation.
Robert, I think you're talking about the Lackawanna Old Road. That was next to Route 46 from Delaware NJ to Buttzville, and then was visible again at Oxford, NJ along Route 31. There's really no other rail rights-of-way along Route 31 that I can think of. The NYS&W between Columbia and Delaware, and Columbia and the Water Gap, has been pretty much obliterated, with a few exceptions, if you know where to look. The WB&E (in PA) may be easier to find, although a lot of it is in private hands.
I greatly enjoy your series on the Lackawanna Cutoff.
I lived in Stroudsburg and was able to ride from there to Hoboken on the way to the World's Fair. Going across the Pequest? Fill. It seemed like flying in a small plane over the valley. While traveling to visit relatives in Sayre, my birth place, I was able to ride the Lackawanna to Waverly, NY. I can remember the long stops at Scranton and Binghamton that made the journey seem longer. I worked for the Reading Company after college and changed employment to Southern Railway after my time in the Army. I am now retired from NS. I had responsibility for the valuation maps which indicate what was current at about 1915. As you often explain, many times, modern routes are cut and paste exercises.
I am familiar with the NYS&W and WB&E. It crossed Route 80 in several places between Stroudsburg and the Rt 80/81split. A fairly long section of roadbed exists extending toward Delaware Water Gap from Glen Park in Stroudsburg to the crossing of Broadhead Creek and former Lackawanna. Over 50 years ago I found a concrete milepost 99 in this general area. It seems to be gone now.
While stationed at Tobyhanna Army Depot in 1970 I offered to study passenger service along the Erie Lackawanna for Monroe County. There was no interest at that time.
Thanks Chuck super presentation!!,is the east portal easy accessible on the oxford tunnel I saw the west end and it was really flooded?
I would love to get some photos of it in my lifetime.
East portal is definitely better than the west portal.
@@LackawannaCutOff I was through both bores on the Manuka last month.Holy heck silt was over the knee.Took us 45 min to walk 50ft.Never doing that again lol..they should probably gate that location as its getting pretty dangerouse.Lots of loose bricks and rocks in the collapsed areas ready to fall.Glad I documented one last time.
Oxford has had a big collapse in the last few years. It is now gated off with a fence. It is really flooded.
@@RussellNelson Yeah man..i was in the manuka tunnels a couple years ago what a nightmare.The muck and silt is deadly never again.
Aww, memories... I was traveling west on rt 46 along the river just before the Gap... Across the river I saw a locomotive jump tracks and slide almost into the river. This had to be on or about 1975. I guess those tracks paralleled rt 611.
To the best of my recollection it was at the now Point of Gap Overlook.
Would have been I-80, not Route 46.
Correct, but part of the old Rt. 46 into the Gap. Born near Scranton, raised in Bloomfield, I have many years of traveling the Gap both on Rt 46 and 80. As a youngster I disliked I 80 because it bypassed Hot-dog Johnny's.
I hate to disagree, but as far as I'm aware Route 46 never went farther west/north than it does now. For about twenty years what is now I-80 through the Gap was designated as Route 611.
i live right by the oxford tunnel. i always go to the other side. how did you get to the east side?(the side in the video)
Off of Route 31 south of Oxford (NJ) where the road passes over the right-of-way (and the tunnel, which isn't visible from the road). You can pull off of the road onto the shoulder and park. This is just east of Tunnel Hill Road. There's an old unpaved road that goes down to a spot east of the tunnel. It will be wet down there, or, if you wait long enough, frozen. So, boots are advised.
26:41 I live right near it! But how did that former railroad connect to the one there now? You’d think it would look like a T when connected.
32:16 That’s the first time I ever saw the railroad bridge!
But was it taken when it was being dismantled? The road is closed in the photo.
The Warren Railroad crossed at grade in later years. Originally, the Phillipsburg Branch went over the Warren RR on a bridge.
Chuck, I have been rewatching your Cut-off documentary and was wondering if there was a reason you didn't mention the turntable in Delaware?
No.
Mr. Welsh I've been watching your videos on the Lackawanna Railroad this part 6 interested me and also the cut off I live in West Virginia but I have always been a railfan I like all trains foreign and domestic it would be great to see the cutoff back into service after following this video I was wondering where did the old road cross the Delaware into Pennsylvania could you shed some light on me please
sam aikens, the Old Road crossed the Delaware about a half-mile or so north of the town of Delaware, NJ. On the Pennsylvania side it continued, and is still in place, all the way to Scranton and Binghamton NY.
@@LackawannaCutOff Thank you it would be nice to see the cut off back in service...another question...what kind of shape are the 2 concrete viaducts in?
sam aikens, that question will be answered as part of a final engineering study. Both need work and have seen spalling, freeze-thaw damage, etc.
@@LackawannaCutOff ok thank you....I use to drive a truck and been over I80 many times into NJ and have often wonder what RR I was looking at When go under the viaduct...now I know...lol
By the way the old road connects to Phillipsburg Branch at the Washington end which means you can run a Montclair train to Easton PA via Washington and Hackettstown. Speaking of the Warren Railroad if you rebuild Hampton to Washington section you can actually run Raritan Valley Line trains to Washington then Phillipsburg from High Bridge & NY Penn Station
Will never happen unfortunately people like there automobiles
@@paulradice3534 okay then but there is actually a plan to bring back the railway line to Allentown, PA by using the RVL
I have really enjoyed your videos on the Lackawanna Cutoff. I am curious as to your take on one thing in particular (granted it is taking us into the realm of speculation). Had the Rockport wreck on the Old Road occurred today, and all the variables were the same (ie thunderstorm, road debris on tracks, estimated speed of the train), who do you think the NTSB would hold responsible?
It probably doesn't happen. But so much has changed, it's impossible to say. But, the debris washed onto the grade crossing was the result of road work that most likely today wouldn't have produced that debris. Also, we can second-guess the decision to reroute the train over the Old Road. The train was WAY ahead of schedule, so rerouting it rather than letting the train chug slowly behind an eastbound freight maybe made sense then, but seems puzzling today.
@@LackawannaCutOff I hadnt thought about the rerouting aspect TBH. My understanding is that, in those days, passenger trains had priority over freights. Besides the cutoff had more than enough sidings for the freight to pull off on. Maybe it was an on the spot judgment call by dispatch , albeit an awful one.
@@rhettinski, when the train arrived at Scranton around midnight, they already had made the decision to reroute it over the Old Road.
@@rhettinski, the decision to reroute the special was already made by the time the train had reached Scranton. The decision never made any sense to me either.
Hoboken was where Bertha Riek Bayer was born. She married Frederick W. Fairchild, a conductor who was born in Meadville, PA. His father was from Cherry Creek, New York. His brother Calvin is buried in Corry, Erie County, PA. It makes sense to me now how they met through the railroad. Calvin and George Francis were sons of Israel, who may have worked on the railroad. He disappeared from Census after 1855, and his daughter was born in Wisconsin in 1857. Since his descendants all worked for the railroad, I think he worked for the railroad from 1800's. I have no proof yet.
Two articles about the Civil War and the railroad that might be of interest: penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/JAMHF/2/2/Military_Railroads*.html and www.alu.army.mil/alog/issues/julaug09/over_there.html that a professor, Gregory J. W. Urwin gave to me.
Has any part of these railroad beds been made into trails for hiking and bike riding? I live near the Silver Comet Trail. I wrote Murder on the Silver Comet Trail, which is a comedy that also tells women to use the Buddy System. I have a nonprofit for the purpose of telling women in print to use the Buddy System. It isn't in print for women so much.
Thank you for your video. Could the cut-off have been built today? Or too many people would object? Too many properties affected? Would like to see same views today as in the old photographs. Please show the photos longer and pan around and show the area. 55:40 Is that switch welded straight? Frog removed? Please show us interesting things.
The switch is still operational as far as I'm aware, but it hasn't been used in several years. The power plant has been converted, but hasn't been powered up for any period of time since. There's a happy medium of the length of time to keep photos on the screen. The problem can be that my discussion has moved on, and the photo is no longer relevant. I didn't realize that the switch was blocked by myself.
To answer you question about whether the Cut-Off could be built today, most likely not. That's what makes these rights-of-way so valuable. Even the Old Road. While there are plans to use it as a rail line in the foreseeable future, a hundred years from now, you never know.
Lackawanna! LOL
Going through and watching these episodes and especially this episode it doesn't make sense why the cut-off was ever shut down.
Well, after Conrail took over they had little interest in continuing service. In short, they chased away customers--not on the Cut-Off--but on the rest of the line, then used that as justification for closing the entire Binghamton-Hoboken mainline to freight. (Passenger service over the Cut-Off was gone by 1970.) NJDOT and later NJ Transit would pick up the commuter district in NJ, but the Cut-Off by 1979 was not being used for either freight or passenger service. And sufficient funds couldn't be found to acquire it. Of course, there's also the aspect that Conrail didn't want competition in the New York-New Jersey area and although Delaware & Hudson did have trackage right to ostensibly compete with Conrail, D&H was David to Conrail's Goliath, so Conrail essentially had a monopoly. So, yes, in a future-oriented scenario the Cut-Off should never had been torn up. But, unfortunately, future orientation has to be forced upon our political system; it's not in its DNA otherwise.
Hmm, interesting. one would think irregardless of conrail any other railroad would have been on that cut-off Asap. sounds though there is a need for another President William Truesdale.
Don't forget, this was all happening in the late 1970s/early 1980s during a recession and the collapse of northeastern US railroading. The timing couldn't have been worse.
uhuh, yup, it is interesting. has it really taken some 40 years to get thing up to par where it is now being talked about?, the stories along the line (pun intended) are interesting of how much the local rural economy was Affected. and is affected.
Guess they didn’t think that the car was gonna be there death nail
Funding for cars, trucks, planes (roadways and airports).
@@LackawannaCutOff thanks for all those great videos.
Hello Chuck,might I ask who can I contact to gain permission too take photos of the east portal,I see it's posted?
Regards
Tom
Property owners are sometimes known to illegally post on land that they do not own to try to discourage visitors. Once you're on the ROW, you should be OK, so you're really asking for permission to access the ROW. You would have to go to Oxford Township to see who actually owns the land, although that info is supposed to be on the No Trespassing signs. I would be surprised if even if you track down the owners that they would grant you permission--if, in fact, they own the access road from Route 31 (the shortest way in). If there if no identification on the signs, that would suggest that it could be a bogus No Trespassing posting. Beyond that, I'm not sure what to tell you.
@@LackawannaCutOff Thanks brother I was there the other day and couldn't find the tunnel think I didn't walk far enough north,i crossed the rt31 at the pull off the bank was very steep and I had a slip and got my camera lens all muddy lol..Ill be going back next week and looking for the access rd,i assume its near tunnel rd and rt31 intersection?
Thanks again Chuck your the best!!!!
Tom
@@577buttfan, the eastern portal is almost directly under Route 31 on the opposite side of the hill from the town of Oxford itself. As you crest the hill going southbound on 31, you need to park just before the start of the guardrail. The tunnel is almost directly beneath you at that point and you should be able to see the rock cut leading to the tunnel. But, in order to access it, you need to walk away from the road as it gradually drops down to the level of the right of way. You'll have to cross a small stream and then double back to the tunnel portal. It will probably be wet, but nothing like the quagmire at the western portal.
@@LackawannaCutOff Thanks again Chuck,I should have a video up by week's end.
@@LackawannaCutOff I found it this morning Chuck what an amazing place it was a little too wet to get in there and I could hear water coming down very hard I'm going to have to go back when it gets dryer thank you again so much for all the info
The rock gneiss is pronounced "NICE" - in German, the SECOND vowel in the e/i combo is always pronounced, such is in EINSTEIN and their word for the brewed beverage with the same English pronunciation, BIER.
Glen...thanks for the correction.
In German it would be pronounced Gnice. The G is pronounced.
So what does Conrail do? Abandons the cut-off and pulls up the rail. Thanks Conrail. I understand exactly why the cut-off was built. What I don't understand is why 40-some years later it's still out of service.
Reactivating an abandoned rail line isn't something you see done every day I'm afraid. It's not easy.
Yes, it's a lot harder to put it back than to preserve it in the first place. How long is it taking NJ Transit to lay 7 miles of track to Andover as opposed to DL&W who built the entire cut-off from scratch in only 3 years! I've watched with dismay as the DL&W slowly deteriorated over the years. I remain hopeful we'll see some significant changes for the better someday. Delaware-Lackawanna in PA has reactivated a section of the old Lackawanna I thought would never see trains again. Thank you for all you do and your excellent coverage of the cut-off.
It certainly doesn't help when the tracks were taken out decades ago and vegetation has all but consumed the original right of way.
Get a wind screen !!
Already done
Nice if you could of actually hear him over the wind noise.
Try a wind sock next time!
We've since gone to the expense of a wireless mic. That will make its first appearance in the upcoming Part 10.
Very informative and interesting; but the sound quality leaves a lot to be desired.
What you Yanks call a "Cut Off" is referred to us Brits as a "By Pass"
Paul Faulkner, yes, a cut-off (or cutoff) would be considered a bypass route.
Just a note, I would credit the photographers with text on the photos if you’re going to include images not taken by yourself.
Typically I do that, except for the old B&Ws which are covered by a statement at the end of the video.
Now, if he had a heart attack, and collapsed across the track, then, a train came along..... Not a good safety day I guess.