Lackawanna Cut-Off - Part 12: Freight Trains Over the Cut-Off
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- Опубликовано: 11 окт 2024
- Join us as we find out a major reason--perhaps THE major reason--why the Cut-Off was abandoned and the tracks removed by Conrail. We'll also look at a freight line of the former Lackawanna Railroad and critique some of the decisions made by the Erie Lackawanna management that would affect the Cut-Off. We'll visit Port Morris Yard and discuss that major freight facility. And finally we'll visit Roseville Road to see the new bridge there and talk about an accident that occurred nearby nearly 90 years ago.
Great video, I actually was just telling the story of the Boonton Branch the other day, bad and short sighted move by the EL. My dad remembers when the railroad still ran around Garret Mountain.
I grew up in Paterson and used to play along the lacawanna, the erie and the erie lacawanna right of ways. We also played in the freight yard and train station in Paterson. I remember when rt 80 was being built and we would ride go-carts on the finished roadway. Two children lost their lives on a huge dirt pile east of Madison avenue along 23rd ave during the rt 80 construction.
Trailer on flat car (T.O.F.C.)
Appreciate your personality you bring to the videos. Living in Texas, you have brought excellent and interesting information to me that I otherwise could only gain from books. Thanks for what you are doing.
Great series of videos! Having lived the first part of my life in NJ - answers lots of questions I had about the EL. Lived near EL tracks in Lyndhurst and Little falls, and also lived just below the water gap. Explains the artifacts observed driving around in beautiful NW NJ. Thanks for producing these!
Being an NJ Transit rail employee ,I can tell you there is direct Freight connection between the NJT M&E , NE corridor and croxton yard via Cape interlocking & Marion . Located west of The Meadows maintenance facility. So the shameful conversion of the lower Boonton line AKA Greenwood Lake division into a trail doesn't sever possibilities for Freight Service between Pennsylvania and New York City particularly croxton Oak Island and the Meadows Intermodal terminal. Manifest freights and single-level Intermodal (non double stack) can sneak underneath Roseville in Newark.
And who is going to run this? And why use a "single-stack" route over the Poconos instead of the existing double-stack routes that NS and CSX already have? It makes no sense.
Another very informative video!
I think it's great that you left in the "Outdoorsman" who appeared (chair in hand) out of nowhere. It shows the charming travails of videography in the real World.
Peter, we debated whether to leave it in, but since it added a comical interlude to the video, we left it in. During filming, I could hear his footsteps coming from behind me, but I thought he was someone from NJ Transit. When I turned around and it was a guy with a lawnchair who made no attempt to go around us off-camera, I was speechless and needed a few seconds to collect my thoughts. I was almost finished with the segment and looked at my daughter (who was behind the camera) as to whether we should cut it and start over. But she kinda motioned for me to continue on. So, I did. I still wonder where the "outdoorsman" was going with a lawn chair?
Was he sitting track side watching trains? I would do that. : )
@@LackawannaCutOff I paused the video just to read this. I had been playing the series at 1.5 speed just to get though the series and the approach of Scottish lawn chair guy is more comical at that speed. LOL
I am sure others may be more familiar with this than I but I recall USRA never included the EL in the ConRail Final System Plan in 1975. At the time Chessie System had planned to buy EL but Chessie could not reach agreement with EL labor that Chessie could accept. The Chessie move followed the Middle Atlantic Rail Corporation (MARC) proposal wherein RDG, LV and CNJ had planned to consolidate prior to the formulation of the ConRail Final System Plan. The MARC plan later included EL as was relatively stronger than the other regional bankrupts and thought it could reorganize. It all leads one to suspect USRA and / or ConRail never wanted EL. Even after the absorption of EL into CR, they had no need for another east-west main line beyond former NYC and PRR mains. As time went on, Conrail moved traffic off the Southern Tier (Erie ML) to the degree the only remaining traffic over parts of the Tier was the "statutory train" which was an agreement with NY State to run a train at least once a week on the Southern Tier. CR had a set of commercially obsolete boxcars they would run over the Southern Tier to meet their obligation to NY State. Competitively, CR did not want to sell Southern Tier lest CSX or NS get access to New York but CSX/NYSW later cracked the code on that move with trackage rights. The fact the Cut Off had no or little traffic that originated or terminated on the route did not help the argument to keep it. I also suspect development of on line industry was hampered since the track was on a high fill above industrial sites. The Cut Off was purpose built to speed passenger trains from end to the other which it did well. But once you didn't need to do that any more there was no reason to keep it. People also need to recall the rail freight context at the time which overtook Conrail and the northeast rail network: completion of Interstate 80, larger trucks, fewer on rail shippers, rail rate regulations, decline in US manufacturing, better track capacity on fewer main lines through use of CTC, larger freight cars, bigger locos. etc. I look at freight trains in these videos and marvel at how much of the traffic is gone. (I worked in the marketing department at Conrail in Philadelphia 1984 - 1998).
John, it's well-documented that EL came into Conrail late in the game. Conrail didn't need EL, although presumably it didn't want to compete with it either.
I think the Cutoff was built primarily to move coal.
Well, that was the chief commodity that the DL&W was moving at the time of its construction, although they moved a lot of other freight, and passengers, as well.
On the GL Branch about 300 ft N of the switch at MTN View there's a USGS marker, which was placed by my Great Grandfather. Get this. His salary in 1925 was $14,741/ yearly as a structural engineer. Locomotive engineers had a similar salary. They received bonuses for on time arrival, and even safety. I have An engineers logbook from 1927. I wanted to donate it along with some cancelled checks signed by Truesdale but Steamtown had no interest. They did accept ( on loan ) a slide rule, station and bridge designs as well as several photos. Their short film in the tech museum is all my pics
The former Greenwood Lake branches off from the current Boonton-Montclair Line by way of an electrically locked manual switch just west off track one in the vicinity of the Montclair connection. This track ran by way of Benson St.,Glenridge; Rowe St. Bloomfield, North Newark, over the Arlington Bridge over the Hackensack River continuing east through Arlington over the causeway and over the DB draw which lead by way of the third track into Croxton yard. From DB one remained right up to the connection with the main line then through West End to the Bergen Tunnels. If the Arlington bridge was to be rebuilt, track relaid, etc. one could possibly run freight from Croxton over the former Greenwood Lake connecting with the Boonton-Montclair Line at the MC connection. The electric lock switch would have to be replaced by a remote power switch. Of course, this would cost a lot of money and it probably would not be feasible. When the old Boonton Line stopped at Benson St. the crews used to grab a cup of coffee from Jimmy Wilson's concession in the Benson St. station. This way we had a cup of Joe before arriving at Hoboken. By the way, that was one of the local characters from Port Morris. Gary J. Kuipers, Sr. NJT retired.
Ah! After years of ignoring the spaghetti bowl rail maps of Northern New Jersey, this is all starting to make sense. I never bothered to focus on the old DL&W, but rather the Erie.
Perhaps of interest, at about 30:00 in your video, looking north on the GL branch, as of about three years ago (c. 2014) the track was still mostly on the ground to the junction with the Susquehanna. As you note, freight trains are run north far enough to run back south (east) on to the Boonton Branch. The track becomes overgrown and rusty north of the furthest point needed to run the freight trains (I hiked it - wish I'd brought a camera!). Further up, there is a trestle over the Pequannock River which is still in place, although walled off by welded steel plates on both sides to prevent trespassing. Service could conceivably be restored on this section since the right-of-way has not been breached in a major way, although it seems unlikely. However, a couple of miles of track south of the Susquehanna junction still see occasional freight use, although unscheduled. Most of that trackage is not regularly accessible from the Susquehanna line due to being protected by locked gates.
Love the montage at the end - thank you for all the hard work!
The trestle over the Pequannock you refer to crosses at a junk yard (or at least was one the last time I was there). Somehow I cut through it and didn't draw the attention of the guard dogs. I was lucky. I would never do that again.
That’s the line that went up to Greenwood Lake which it go through the Wanaque reservoir now it ends before the Monksville reservoir damn. It goes through Pompton Junction.
Thank you for all the cutoff videos. I look forward to each new episode. Thanks for clarifying the sales of the right of way and it's impact on later operations. What would the builders of Rt. 80 done if EL didn't sell?
Nice thorough job, Chuck!
As a person that was born and raised in Paterson, when much of this abandonment took place, I could never understand why all the Boonton trackage was given up completely. Because, the DL&W, for a good amount of the way around Garret Mountain, through West Paterson, was right next to the Morris Canal ROW. Which was abandoned in 1924. I never could figure why the DL&W(EL) ROW could not have been moved over to the Morris Canal ROW?
When the federal government targeted the Erie Lackawanna ex DL&W freight Main Line / Boonton branch for I-80, they did offer to relocate the Erie Lackawanna tracks on either a wide Center median or along the inside of the curve hugging Garret Mountain. The EL declined because they were being crushed by NJ property taxes and saw the elimination as of a way of saving Millions in confiscatory NJ taxes. Unfortunately, they went on to spend the equivalent of those savings to upgrade the old Greenwood Lake into the new Freight main Boonton line after the Penn Central merger in 1968 resulted in the loss of New Haven, EL's largest interchange partner on the east. (Btw, ATSF was EL's main western interchange partner. So much, Santa Fe briefly considered buying the EL to keep it out of Conrail)
The burning of the Peekskill Viaduct leading to Campbell Hall..(a suspicious fire soon after EL won court case forcing PC to honor ex NH interchange contracts w EL dating to Erie)
The end of Campbell Hall made the Graham line Erie cut off redundant. Heavy commuter trains along the Erie main line through Goshen, Middletown, Monroe and Florida Westward to Port Jervis couple with a complete death of Industry in the Southern Tier Made the Erie completely unprofitable east of Binghamton.
So the EL changed back to the now faster "Scranton division" (DL&W side). Where more industry survived in PA.
EL would then single track much of its 2 track ex Erie main from Binghampton to Port Jervis NY
I lived right below Garrett Mountain. I use to play on those tracks all the time. My uncle was hit and killed by a train up on Grove Street. I just remember my grandmother telling me but never saw a newspaper article or anything about it.
These events, foretold the non stop congestion that now exists everywhere on highways.... Connecticut has devolved into a perpetual logjam, and up around Boston where I live it's horrible.
Holy detail..... I lose focus, but I love the NJ locations. Grew up in Little Falls. My great grandfather worked as an engineer ( structural ) for the DL&W. I have pics of the high bridge which crossed the Passaic River and river view dr.
The bridge on the Gladstone Branch near the ballast quarry?
That bridge used to be a Stone Bridge until it collapsed Lucky ther we’re no trains that we’re going over the bridge when it collapsed. Little Falls Townhall has a picture of the original Stone Bridge.
Thanks for the series. I have to say a huge improvement since the addition of the cordless mike. It was very hard to hear what you were saying with the wind noise in the some earlier installments. Thanks for putting this together, from another train lover who grew up in Scranton in the 1950s. My father and grandfather used to take me to the Scranton yard to watch the trains. I have spent a lot of time at Steamtown.
Great presentation! One suggestion, though. Your text overlays need to be displayed for about twice as long as they are. Very difficult to read them, understand them and pay attention to your audio at the same time. Thanks for doing this series!
Thanks for the suggestion. I'll try to keep that in mind.
@. Wait for the War by Spencer Albee.
@@LackawannaCutOff Great tune, I didn't think there were any newer artists with talent. I'm glad I was wrong.
@, Albee has been around for a bit. I'm not familiar with his body of work, but I really like this tune.
So basically, after the Moonshower plan was implemented to shift freight from the former Erie to the former DL&W route in 1972, did all those freights traversed the old Greenwood Lake-Boonton line out of Croxton via the DB Drawbridge out through Arlington, etc, ? (which is now abandoned due to the 2002 Montclair connection).
@Chuck Walsh Stumbled across this video today and, not knowing if you or any of your subscribers were aware of it, decided to post its link in your informative discussion on the Boonton Branch (hope I'm not overstepping my boundaries): ruclips.net/video/nycqns7yNzI/видео.html. From the linked video's commentary, consensus is that much of the photography is on the branch; see the description for details.
If this is indeed the Boonton Branch, the four-track low-grade line pictured makes it readily understandable how its tie-in to the Blairstown Cut-off provided a superior freight route between the Hudson River and the Delaware Water Gap. As you discussed, if just one track of the Boonton Branch's torn-out section still existed talk of freight restoration on the Cut-off would be much more realistic.
As someone who knows virtually nothing about the DL&W but did know about how Interstate 80 overlays a portion of the Boonton Branch, it is this video in your Cut-off series that I find the most interesting. Your presentation demonstrates history's impact on contemporary possibilities. The importance of the two routes' (branch and Cut-off) symbiotic operation in days of yore makes clear the great loss suffered in the Boonton Branch's severing under Erie-Lackawanna ownership--something previously unknown to/understood by me. Same way before today I didn't know Lackawanna steamers were equipped with Diesel locomotive air horns dating back to 1929! Hope you (and others) find the video of interest.
If I HAVE overstepped my boundaries by linking to another channel's video, please do delete this commentary. Apologies for any offense to you (and Larisa), please know that none was intended.
No problem.
g bridgman...Ah, there is the $64,000 question. That scenario might have played out if Perry Shoemaker had become E-L president instead of Von Willer. Shoemaker most likely would not have made such a short-sighted move as selling the right-of-way. But, what would the highway dept done? Based on my discussions with John Willever, the plan was to have the two rights-of-way side-by-side. They had already started condemnation on a stretch of properties in West Paterson (as Woodland park was known in those days). The problem was the "gap" between Goffle Hill and Garret Mountain. Actually, I don't think that the logistics of putting the highway (I-80 and NJ 19) next to the double-track right-of-way was all that difficult. They would have needed a lot of fill, however. (Refer to Fill, Pequest for instructions.) The Highway Dept was just lazy--and got lucky that the E-L president was desperate enough for cash to go along with the deal. Commissioner Palmer, himself, was looking to save money and effort. The building of ramps would have had to have gone up and over the railroad, hardly an impossible task, in my view. I'm not convinced that the highway dept would have tried eminent domain.
I believe it was Perry Shoemaker who did put the Phoebe Snow on the sacrificial alter in the mid 60s. He was a good president and probably wouldn't have caved to the temptation to sell the right of way. How differently, and probably better, things would have played out. I don't know if it would have kept EL out of Contrail, but it might have saved the cut-off. Thanks for your great presentations. I've watched them all, some more than once. I think I saw John Willever on the train when NKP 765 came to Scranton last summer but I didn't get a chance to talk to him.
EL president William White made the decision to discontinue the Phoebe Snow. Ironically, it was while White was DL&W president that the Phoebe was inaugurated.
Obviously Iv'e got my presidents mixed up. Thanks for the reply. Did Shoemaker leave after the EL merger? Id' have to look it up in my Lackawanna book to get this straight. I'm sorry the Phoebe Snow was given the nod over the Lake Cities. Erie influence? Plus there was that pesky tavern lounge that needed to be turned around. Thanks for your reply.
Shoemaker was supposedly going to get the presidency shortly after the 1960 merger, but there was a block of Erie directors that double-crossed him and denied him the presidency (he was shunted into a position with no responsibility), and he ended up staying only a brief time thereafter and then was offered the presidency of the CNJRR and he took it, with something like a $20,000 pay cut, which was an enormous amount in those days.
Yes, and the CNJ was in worse shape than EL. I've always thought the "Erie Merger" was more like a hostile takeover of the DL&W. The Phoebe Snow was reinstated briefly for a while, then cut again. It's too bad the Lake Cities didn't remain in service one more year. Maybe it could have been turned over to Amtrak? Maybe that would have saved the cut off. Thanks again for all the information. I'm looking to Part 13 of the Cut Off! :-)
Chuck..great job. Quick question. Do you have or know of any footage or photographs from the Erie / EL Buffalo and Southwestern branch that ran through Dayton and Gowanda NY? I grew up there and would love to see some of that history.
Chuck, why didn't the EL use the Dover-Morristown-Summit routing for thru freight in the 70s (rather than the Greenwood Lake route)?
Very rarely. I can count on one hand the number of long freights that I saw run on the Morristown Line, and I lived right next to it during the EL years.
@@LackawannaCutOff I see. Was that because of grades, track conditions? Or was it purposed only for passenger?
@@gchristian7612, well, the Boonton Line was intended to be the freight bypass to the Morristown Line. The high-speed Boonton Line was opened in 1870, and although the Morristown Line had numerous improvements made to it over the years--it dated from twenty years earlier--yes, the grade up to Summit was an issue, but also the high density of commuter and passenger trains on the M&E. But after 1930 there was also overhead catenary which would become an issue as freight cars got taller and taller. Passenger trains disappeared in 1970, but the big blow to the Boonton Line was the idiotic severing of it near Paterson to build I-80 in 1963. That forced the Erie Lackawanna to combine it with the Greenwood Lake Branch at Mountain View (Wayne), a line never intended for high-speed freight service. It had a hill up to Great Notch that was just as bad as the one up to Summit on the Morristown Line. Today, with the Montclair Connection, the Montclair-Boonton Line now combines in the Montclair Branch and Morristown Line. With low clearances and no access to Croxton Yard (which was the main yard that the EL used) the idea of using either line for long-distance freight is deader than a doornail.
Do you know who took the picture at 1:04 in Greendell? I ask because I grew up there and was down at the tracks a lot with my dad. I have a vivid memory of watching a train drop boxcars and I had an orange shirt just like the one that boy is wearing. The age is right for that boy to be a very young me or maybe my brother.
I think Bill Strait. I'll need to double-check.
Dan McFadden.
@@LackawannaCutOff thanks for letting me know. Name does not ring a bell with me, I am sure my brother and I were not the only kids to hang around the station in Greendell.
Great video. From Charlie Walsh Kearny nj
Another Home Run!
Love all your videos i have a question early in the video there was a picture of Passaic NJ where in Passaic was that taken i think its the main line that NJT uses thanks
Yes, NJT's Main Line.
As the Burlington found out, you CAN run freight on a commuter line.
That movie crashers the man! Lol
46:35 I thought that TOFC meant Trailer on Flat Car.
Actually long freights are possible utilizing the west end wye to connect with NJT main/Bergen/Pascack V Line. Switch to Bergen/ Pascack at Laurel/Upper Hack interlocking towards HX to the Croxton Connection east of HX. Conrail/NS can easily build a loop track at Harmon Cove to eliminate the need for a reverse move. What we will not see are double stacks containers. Because of the Roseville in Newark low catenary.
No chance. You can't run down either the Montclair-Boonton Line or the Morristown Line. End of story.
Why was the cut-off single tracked? All I can find is repetitive explanations that it was in anticipation of the merger wuth Erie RR. How so? What did that trigger?
Dick, it's a good question. The single-tracking of the Cut-Off in 1958 took place at roughly the same time that the DL&W was trimming back and already consolidating with the Erie. The first consolidation was the Erie running into Hoboken in 1956. In 1959, much of the Lackawanna's trackage west of Binghamton was downgraded. And traffic was already falling, so the Lackawanna may have figured that they could save money by eliminating one track on the fastest part of the railroad. They also left a very long--4-mile--siding at Greendell, which would have helped with conflicting moves. Maybe the DL&W knew that the Erie Side would prevail after the 1960 merger. I don't think we know that for sure. Or they figured that with two double-track railroads from Hoboken to Binghamton that the extra track on the Cut-Off was expendable. Your guess is as good as mine.
Were they {Lackawanna} so hungry for money that they needed the rail to sell as scrap or were there operating expenses that could be saved? My interest in RRs comes from growing up in WWII Schenectady; driving by the ALCO shops where Sherman tanks were being cranked out; and seeing them driven through the streets to the test track. Endless flatcars with MPs then headed out on the NYC for the docks and war.
There are costs involved in keeping more railroad than you can afford to keep up. In addition to maintenance costs, there are taxes, etc. The Lackawanna was saving on about 25 miles of rail. Operationally, it may not have been as good as double track, but unless they anticipated greater traffic, it probably made sense to single-track the Cut-Off.
Back then they were losing lots of freight customers to trucks guess they just wanted to cut their losses !
Ugh those ALP-45DP’s are not easy on the eyes!
Certainly no EMD E or Alco PA!
Too bad we can't press a reset button and go back 50-60 years and re-evaluate what is the best course of action, considering climate change. The private ownership of railroads made them a "public enemy" and the railroads were treated accordingly, unfortunately, and when they became financially distressed, they weren't pitied, but had to sell themselves off cheap, for highway purposes, mostly.