"These Humans have besmirched everything He's bestowed upon them. They were given paradise - they threw it away. They were given this planet - they destroyed it. They were favored best among all His endeavors, and some of them don't even believe He exists! And in spite of it all, He has shown them infinite fucking patience at every turn. " this dialogue was written and executed with great passion. Absolutely love this scene.
this shows God loves all human being in the world, he is giving us a chance to know all the truth, he is giving us a chance to get save, he gave us his begotten son that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life, but sad most people choose death over life.
I think what makes this scene extra epic is when Loki starts saying "I've heard a rant like this before... you sound like Lucifer man!" you realise that these two were actually present when Lucifier ranted against God and was cast down from Heaven. "I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne." That is the ultimate in Epic.
yea he said You sound like the Morning Star. which was what Lucifer was known as. Not to be confused with Jesus whom is the Bright Morning Star. The True Light
"You're not talking about going home Bartleby, You're talking about fucking war on God! Well fuck that! I have seen what happens to the proud, when they take on the throne." Awesome scene.
The parking garage setting adds a lot to this scene. They're literally underground in the darkness, their voices reverberating to symbolize how trapped they are.
I love how this scene is just full of raw emotion. How the scene started with Bartleby ranting with unfairness before evolving unwittingly into a monster. And it's sad because in the beginning of the movie, Bartleby was all about mercy for humans since he watched them suffer for years as an angel. And all it took for him to turn was realizing he was never given the same love as the ones he felt pity for. It's less the birth of a monster and more of a child who wanted to be loved by a distant parent. In the end that's what Bartleby really wanted. To be loved equally by the only parent he knew. And to go back home. And when he realized that he would never be loved in the equal way that humans were, that he would always be punished for the things he believed in, he just let go and gave a giant middle finger to everything. Better to let it all be destroyed and for everyone to feel his pain. Like a child rebelling because he thinks he isn't loved
All the more reason why God is an asshole. An almighty omnipotent being letting his 1st set of children suffer and rebel as a result shows nothing but negligence and arrogance on the part of the Deific parent.
@@blastermasterguy Not really. Many humans are like an ignorant teenager who think they know better than their parents and then are surprised when their parents or society itself punish them for their vile deeds. For example, a parent may say to his teenage son, "Jesse, it is wrong to associate with known thieves and burglarize homes and vehicles, it is wrong to steal your mother's car, don't do it, it is wrong to treat your mother with such disrespect as to call her the most dehumanizing of names." To which the son responds, "fuck you 'dad', I don't need your bullshit lecturing on how to live. I'm gonna get mines." (a small sample of actual examples from my own brother). In this analogy, one can view society as the universal construct itself - look at how the Earth is negatively affected by human barbarisms and shortsighted nature bent on exploitation of its richness for ephemeral mortal desires such as wealth and power (Climate change effects, vast pollution, hmm). In fact, what is going on now is more akin to God saying "Go then, enjoy your self-inflicted hell." Don't you see? You lot have no need for God or divinity - you're fulfilled, see? You've received your just rewards. Of course God isn't going to stop it - you literally don't want God to intervene, as you think you're better off without God. Of course God isn't going to help you, you don't want or need God's help! As for the quote, it applies more to the figure of Satan than God, after all, the Devil is the Lord of this world, and my my...look at the fruits of his labor throughout time and space. "Why then does God allow suffering to afflict his people?" You may ask. Well, that's between him and his people, not your kind, who are not his people (of your own volition, mind you). God's people learn to endure sufferings, realizing their passing nature in the fallen systems of the world, reassured that their true country is in the heavens and beyond even the stars themselves.
"your talking about war on God! Well FUCK that! I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne!" Everytime I hear that line I picture how Epic that war must have been.
Thought it was kind of interesting when Bartleby lost his cool and said "You shut your fucking mouth, Seraph!". Addressing Loki by his angelic rank rather than his name does add a bit more intensity into the dialogue. But it did bring my attention to Loki's title and rank. I understand that Kevin Smith took a lot of liberties with building this universe, but calling Loki, the so-called Angel of Death, a seraph would put him on the same level as the Metatron, the voice of God. Guess this means that Loki was a pretty big deal and probably very close to God when he was still in heaven. He probably feels and understands the pain of the lack of His presence more than anyone (except maybe Azrael).
And bartleby was a watcher weren’t they they the ones that came to earth and mingled with the humans? That’s what ancient aliens said anyway. I would think he was the more temptation prone.
I love the look in Bartleby's eyes when Loki accuses him of wanting war against God. Its perfect. A mixture of evil, arrogance and maybe even realization. Kills me...
There is absolutely nothing evil about wanting God to pay for his cold, sociopathic callousness. Bartleby was right. He was 100% right. And so was Azrael.
"Where was His infinite patience then - it's not right, it's not fair! We've paid our debt, dont you think it's time...don't you think it's time we went home?" My heart breaks a little. Great acting.
The only people I know who were offended by this movie when it came out was Evangelicals because the movie was centered around Catholic dogma...who they believe are evil.
You Catholics are still sinners. You guys idolize statues and mary when you're not suppose too...and your Pope is a joke as well. You guys are being tricked by demons.
Me either. I would think that Christians would love the message this movie. I think a lot of them don't like it simply because of the swearing. I'm an atheist, btw.
I was raised Catholic but never had faith..... This movie seemed more pro-religion and pro faith than I expected or even wanted. There are jokes but look deeper and the themes and characters and it seems pro faith. I believe the outrage came from people who didn’t get it, understand it or even see it. Some people feel and react to stuff before they think carefully about it. Always remembering they could be wrong so keep an open mind and don’t be arrogant or ignorant.
The "Morning Star" is a deep reference that is obscure and a lot of people won't understand. It's creepy as fuck too when the score kicks in quietly and menacingly. Chilling.
The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate,[16] which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer,[17][18] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing". From Wikipedia. Really obscure. What a clever guy you are.
What a deep and dark scene. And what makes it even more scary is that Bartlbe actually was right in every single word and that look on his face after Loki said - "you talking about a war on god" its was like Bartlbe understand for himself that he want to get a revenge on god. Ben gived a truly amazing performance in this. Idk why so many people said that he is a bad actor. The guy just made a few bad choices in his career but that doesn't mean he is a shity actor and that scene is proof to that.
I get major goosebumps every time I hear that quote "You are talking about WAR. ON. GOOOD...... Well FUCK THAT! I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne!" There really isn't a more epic concept.
I've always loved this movie since day one....but it's literally been close to two decades and damn this scene is so powerful and extremely well performed. Hats off to the emotion expressed in this scene by both, especially Ben Affleck. Props to the fullest
Smith blew it out of the park with the dialog in this scene. Matt & Ben's performances were also spot on. The raw intensity and weight of 'You sound like the morning star....you do, you sound like Lucifer man' has stuck with me for years after watching this movie.
Sometimes the best scenes in a comedy film are the non-comedy scenes. This is one of them for me. I love the location ominous sound design on this scene aside from the echo. Great acting from my favorite actors as well!
As beautiful and absolutely spiritually devastating as this dialogue is, Kevin Smith may not get enough credit for the atmosphere of this scene. They had to be alone to speak as freely as possible about their divergent paths at this point of the story, but to set it in an empty parking garage, and to hear the echo reverberate on Loki's point about Lucifer, drives his point home in a manner that may not have had the impact it did, had this been filmed outside. Kevin Smith is a genius for that foresight.
'l have seen what happens to proud when they take on the throne' & 'I've heard a rant like this before, YOU SOUND LIKE THE MORING STAR! YOU DO! YOU'VE LOST IT!' As great (and true) as Azriel's speech is, l find Loki's response more profound.
@@Imperia1Wrath both are incomplete beings ranting about the freedom of choice and the dangers of it, and from a certain point of view they are correct. By allowing us to have free will we have the capacity for good and evil, hate and love, action and apathy. It's the choices that make the individual though as ultimately it's up to you to decide. A good thing done for bad reasons only effects yourself whereas a bad thing done for good reasons has harsher consequences on others
Does anyone notice the light above Matt Damon that appears like a halo above his head in parts of this scene, it even slips a few times before he makes the morningstar statement.
I love the idea of THE angel of death contemplating a "fucking war on God" and coming to the conclusion "well fuck that". This conversation has so much biblical significance to it. Gives me goosbumps
Well also, Bartleby is a much lower rank/choir of Angel, he's just a Grigori or a Watcher (guess what they do), and in this scene when Bartleby is yelling at Loki to shut up after calling him the Morningstar, he says "Shut the fuck up Sereph!", referring to Loki by his rank. And Metatron says he is a Serephim, which he claims is the highest choir of Angel, and Sereph is short for Serephim, so Loki, being the Angel of Death, put him way up there near God, so if anything, he understood the results and consequences of going to war with God, moreso than Bartleby who was simply a watcher of humanity.
I love the natural reverb of the enormus parking lot, just great, makes their voices so big, never seen such long dialoge in such a great space. praise to the one who decided to record audio here.
"Wake up. These humans have besmirched everything he has bestowed upon them. They were given paradise, they threw it away. They were given this planet, they destroyed it. They were favored best among all his endeavors, and some of them don't even believe he exists. And in spite of it all, he has shown them infinite fucking patience, at every turn." Stellar is right. These are words that make me think, like no other movie I've ever seen can.
The best bad guys in film make you almost agree with them. They're not bad merely for the sake of being bad. They're bad because they have a beef with someone or something, and they make you identify (or perhaps even sympathize) with that beef. It's a product of good acting and good writing. Oh, and some guys were just born to speak the F-word profusely. John Malkovich was one, these two are another.
This scene can ony be delivered by two real best friends. It is brilliant writing brought to life by the dynamic of 2 brothers in arms. No harm, no foul....
Best monologue! I got into drama club in high school performing this piece haha, I didn’t really get what it was about until I rewatched it as an adult... love it every time!
This is the scene that made me love Ben and Matt. My favorite scene of this movie and one of all time favs. I know this scene line for line. I sometimes recite it every now and then just for the rush. Brilliant acting!
Bartleby is a much lower rank/choir of Angel, he's just a Grigori or a Watcher (guess what they do), and in this scene when Bartleby is yelling at Loki to shut up after calling him the Morningstar, he says "Shut the fuck up Sereph!", referring to Loki by his rank. And Metatron, the Voice of God, says he himself is a Serephim, which he claims is the highest choir of Angel, and Sereph is short for Serephim, so Loki, being the Angel of Death, put him way up there near God, so if anything, he understood the results and consequences of going to war with God, moreso than Bartleby who was simply a watcher of humanity But this also makes Bartleby make more sense as being the angry one. He, before his "expulsion from paradise", he watched over humanity, witnessed all they've done, and what Angels, from Gods commands, have done to humans, which makes sense as to how Bart & Loki became friends. And we see throughtout the movie, that Bartleby can still see and watch people, he can read them, and at the very beginning, he is seen watching humans, cause thats what his role in Heaven was. So it makes alot of sense for Bartleby to be the one to go into a rage, he hates humans for doing all the shit they've done, and since Bart is a much lower choir of angel, he doesn't know God as well as Loki, so he truly doesn't understand the wrath God can have. And that also means that Loki, he definitely feels way more pain in the absence of the divine presence of God than Bartleby, since he was a much closer angel to God, being the Serephim Angel of Death. And Loki had always carried out Gods wrath on the humans, and eventually this racked up a guilt in him, which Bartleby discovered whilst they drank and discussed it, and this would mean that Loki has always been able to hide his pain, so thats why he is alot more lax about the plan and doesn't care as much, I mean Bartleby only ever had to watch over Humans, he never actually had to kill them, Bartleby only ever felt bad once, when he told Loki to quit his position. Loki has actually felt the pain of his wrath. All in all, these characters have so much depth to them that I feel alot of people don't realize, Loki & Bartleby are very deep characters, and I feel Smith could've made a movie solely around them
Anthony Fanchin I was raised Catholic but never had faith..... This movie seemed more pro-religion and pro faith than I expected or even wanted. There are jokes but look deeper and the themes and characters and it seems pro faith. I believe the outrage came from people who didn’t get it, understand it or even see it. Some people feel and react to stuff before they think carefully about it. Always remembering they could be wrong so keep an open mind and don’t be arrogant or ignorant.
The best thing about Dogma is that it doesn't ridicule religion, it asks questions about faith and blind belief but it doesn't tell you to not believe in God despite its creators and actors being mostly Atheist.
This is what I love about Kevin Smith writing dialogue for these two. For the most part the movie if goofy, dopy, and humorous and can be brushed off entertainment. Then he pulls out scenes like this where you feel the emotional intensity of the characters and what it would feel like to be in their position. Fantastic acting for fantastic writing!
I actually like Matt Damon as an actor, and Ben can be hit or miss depending on what role he's playing. He actually played a much better Batman in the Dawn of Justice movie than I thought he would.
Ever since I was a kid watching this, I always loved how matt and ben are dressed in the exact same sweatshirt over t-shirt combo with the colors switched.
I like how Smith actually used a moving camera here, maybe the only ever time besides crane shots. From a plot-perspective, it was interesting to see Bartleby and Loki basically swap roles. Was this just a twist or was it necessary?
"These Humans have besmirched everything He's bestowed upon them. They were given paradise - they threw it away. They were given this planet - they destroyed it. They were favored best among all His endeavors, and some of them don't even believe He exists! And in spite of it all, He has shown them infinite fucking patience at every turn. " this dialogue was written and executed with great passion. Absolutely love this scene.
this shows God loves all human being in the world, he is giving us a chance to know all the truth, he is giving us a chance to get save, he gave us his begotten son that whosoever believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life, but sad most people choose death over life.
I think what makes this scene extra epic is when Loki starts saying "I've heard a rant like this before... you sound like Lucifer man!" you realise that these two were actually present when Lucifier ranted against God and was cast down from Heaven. "I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne." That is the ultimate in Epic.
Best scene of the movie.
Damn near 10 years, and somebody is saying what I've been thinking...
yea he said You sound like the Morning Star. which was what Lucifer was known as. Not to be confused with Jesus whom is the Bright Morning Star. The True Light
Loki wasnt for them games
You're talking about fucking *war* on *God*
"You sound like the Morning Star." That line always sends shivers down my spine. He just says is so...darkly.
Im not a believer and still the way he says it gives you chills.
It’s why I keep watching this video. Reminds me to humble myself before I become too.. well like he said, proud.
Can't argue with that. There's a New Testament for a reason. But if you challenge The One, he'll become the Old testament very quickly.
@@PICFL1that should be a sign to believe
He realized just how bad this was getting and that it wasn’t just about going home anymore
"You sound like the morning star."
FUCKING BRILLIANT!!
+causerDAguv Yeah that part gave me chills!
+causerDAguv
Bartleby's reaction to that statement is just as brilliant. Hell, this whole scene is just amazing from start to finish.
Deep down they are really scared of the consequences.
@JeanBaptisteEmanuelZorg - oh at least Loki is terrified!
"You're not talking about going home Bartleby, You're talking about fucking war on God! Well fuck that! I have seen what happens to the proud, when they take on the throne." Awesome scene.
The parking garage setting adds a lot to this scene. They're literally underground in the darkness, their voices reverberating to symbolize how trapped they are.
brilliant observation 👏🏻
At .45 loki is under the light making it look like a halo
yes quite, they are in the under - world. Befitting of Bartleby's intentions
@@dgrat1000
Holy shit man! Good eye!
"I've heard rant like this before, you sound like the Morning Star, YOU SOUND LIKE LUCIFER!! Great line
I love how this scene is just full of raw emotion. How the scene started with Bartleby ranting with unfairness before evolving unwittingly into a monster. And it's sad because in the beginning of the movie, Bartleby was all about mercy for humans since he watched them suffer for years as an angel. And all it took for him to turn was realizing he was never given the same love as the ones he felt pity for.
It's less the birth of a monster and more of a child who wanted to be loved by a distant parent. In the end that's what Bartleby really wanted. To be loved equally by the only parent he knew. And to go back home.
And when he realized that he would never be loved in the equal way that humans were, that he would always be punished for the things he believed in, he just let go and gave a giant middle finger to everything. Better to let it all be destroyed and for everyone to feel his pain.
Like a child rebelling because he thinks he isn't loved
Very much like the First of the Fallen.
I bet Jordan Peterson would have something to say about this scene...
I kinda agree with this, but like Loki, I see Bartleby as Lucifer. I quote Death from Supernatural: "A bratty child having a tantrum!"
@@sasha4598 The last scene when Bartelby starts throwing people to the ground and saying he wants the world to end I thought the same thing.
He actually got his hug from God after apologizing and sent back to heaven
Kevin Smith’s greatest scene in his greatest movie.
And I’d say one of Affleck’s best performances.
Ive always thought that too
"And what about Jay and Bob I mean those guys are alright"
I watch this just for that line
😂
It's somehow weird and funny and unexplained how those two stoners passed the angels' morality meter
"I've seen what happens to the proud,when they take on the throne"
All the more reason why God is an asshole. An almighty omnipotent being letting his 1st set of children suffer and rebel as a result shows nothing but negligence and arrogance on the part of the Deific parent.
@@blastermasterguy Not really. Many humans are like an ignorant teenager who think they know better than their parents and then are surprised when their parents or society itself punish them for their vile deeds. For example, a parent may say to his teenage son, "Jesse, it is wrong to associate with known thieves and burglarize homes and vehicles, it is wrong to steal your mother's car, don't do it, it is wrong to treat your mother with such disrespect as to call her the most dehumanizing of names." To which the son responds, "fuck you 'dad', I don't need your bullshit lecturing on how to live. I'm gonna get mines."
(a small sample of actual examples from my own brother).
In this analogy, one can view society as the universal construct itself - look at how the Earth is negatively affected by human barbarisms and shortsighted nature bent on exploitation of its richness for ephemeral mortal desires such as wealth and power (Climate change effects, vast pollution, hmm).
In fact, what is going on now is more akin to God saying "Go then, enjoy your self-inflicted hell." Don't you see? You lot have no need for God or divinity - you're fulfilled, see? You've received your just rewards. Of course God isn't going to stop it - you literally don't want God to intervene, as you think you're better off without God. Of course God isn't going to help you, you don't want or need God's help! As for the quote, it applies more to the figure of Satan than God, after all, the Devil is the Lord of this world, and my my...look at the fruits of his labor throughout time and space.
"Why then does God allow suffering to afflict his people?" You may ask. Well, that's between him and his people, not your kind, who are not his people (of your own volition, mind you). God's people learn to endure sufferings, realizing their passing nature in the fallen systems of the world, reassured that their true country is in the heavens and beyond even the stars themselves.
@@ebannaw Interesting I've never thought about it in such a way you've given me alot to ponder thank you
GeekGamerGuy81 it’s a good thing this isn’t actually based on anything in the Bible and more based on Christian mythology.
@@blastermasterguy try not to cut yourself on all that edge. Pace yourself. You won't be 13 forever.
Damn I want Biblical stories re-told in modern settings like this!
And I want Kevin Smith to write it. With Matt Damon & Ben Affleck as chapters in the View Askew Bible
A movie about Bethany’s daughter saving humanity with the help of jay bob and rufus.
I sorta wish Kevin Smith went back to writing scenes like this
amanda miller good news though he said he is making Mall Rats 2 and Clerks 3 before he retires
@@Zoolander824 asked Brian O'Halloran about that at a con back in 2015 and still jack
@amanda miller He admitted he can write dialogue. But sucks with structure.
My favorite part of Tusk was when ever Park's spoke.
The Pastor Abin speech in Red State definitely smacked of Smith's earlier work. Of course it's Michael Park once again 🤷♀️
"your talking about war on God! Well FUCK that! I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne!" Everytime I hear that line I picture how Epic that war must have been.
Jesse Rubalcava Seriously...
Thought it was kind of interesting when Bartleby lost his cool and said "You shut your fucking mouth, Seraph!". Addressing Loki by his angelic rank rather than his name does add a bit more intensity into the dialogue.
But it did bring my attention to Loki's title and rank. I understand that Kevin Smith took a lot of liberties with building this universe, but calling Loki, the so-called Angel of Death, a seraph would put him on the same level as the Metatron, the voice of God. Guess this means that Loki was a pretty big deal and probably very close to God when he was still in heaven. He probably feels and understands the pain of the lack of His presence more than anyone (except maybe Azrael).
Until you mentioned it, I didn't realize he called him by rank - I was too intent on Damon's response. Nice catch!
As angel of death,he represented God's will and wrath. My guess is he would have to know God pretty well to be such a representation.
And bartleby was a watcher weren’t they they the ones that came to earth and mingled with the humans? That’s what ancient aliens said anyway. I would think he was the more temptation prone.
@davidquintana2918 You're probably thinking of City of Angels.
@@capeck1993 nope I specifically heard Alan Rickman calling him a watcher “guess what they do”
Frickin' intense dialogue. One of the most powerful scenes in the film. Great job on both parts. Wonderfully executed. Exceptional writing.
This was lucifer chanelling through ben affleck
bartleby = beezelbub
@@donfierro777 According to Azrael, his antics are pissing off Lucifer too for making him look bad.
@@Shanethefilmmaker
In the movie not real life be careful lucifer is cunning however he doesn't have God on his side anymore.
Check out Azrael's deleted scene.
@@manueljaramillo1313 The one where he talks about how humans are the ones who created evil and Hell? Yeah, I saw that.
"I have seen what happens to the proud, when they take on the throne." - Great line there.
"I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne."
That's damn right. Don't play with the creator
Especially since He is a cold, callous sociopath.
I love the look in Bartleby's eyes when Loki accuses him of wanting war against God. Its perfect. A mixture of evil, arrogance and maybe even realization. Kills me...
Exactly. His look is like "yeah, so what if I am?" A great peice of acting.
There is absolutely nothing evil about wanting God to pay for his cold, sociopathic callousness. Bartleby was right. He was 100% right. And so was Azrael.
A shit in the hat of people who say Affleck can't act.
"I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne" ..that's heavy
Definitely one of my favourite scenes of the movie. The dialogue really makes you think. Ben and Matt's delivery was perfect.
"Where was His infinite patience then - it's not right, it's not fair! We've paid our debt, dont you think it's time...don't you think it's time we went home?" My heart breaks a little. Great acting.
I would doom the entire world if the alternative was me living in pain and misery till the end of all time. I would do it.
😮
That's the problem with evil, it sounds an awful lot like common sense.
sometimes unfortunately
exactly "common " sense its not always right.
"evil" is An ABSTRACT!!!!
Evil comes in two forms: either it doesn't think it's wrong, or it doesn't care about right or wrong anymore.
@@angryoldfatman you've clearly watched The Prophecy too many times
I've never understood why people were so offended by this movie. I'm Catholic and this is one of my favorite movies!
The only people I know who were offended by this movie when it came out was Evangelicals because the movie was centered around Catholic dogma...who they believe are evil.
Because The Morning Star has influenced them. I’m a recovering atheist. I came back to some rudimentary belief, because I’ve seen evil
You Catholics are still sinners. You guys idolize statues and mary when you're not suppose too...and your Pope is a joke as well. You guys are being tricked by demons.
Me either. I would think that Christians would love the message this movie. I think a lot of them don't like it simply because of the swearing. I'm an atheist, btw.
I was raised Catholic but never had faith.....
This movie seemed more pro-religion and pro faith than I expected or even wanted.
There are jokes but look deeper and the themes and characters and it seems pro faith.
I believe the outrage came from people who didn’t get it, understand it or even see it.
Some people feel and react to stuff before they think carefully about it. Always remembering they could be wrong so keep an open mind and don’t be arrogant or ignorant.
The "Morning Star" is a deep reference that is obscure and a lot of people won't understand. It's creepy as fuck too when the score kicks in quietly and menacingly. Chilling.
Candide Disipulus hahahahaha! nah man the other Morning Star
/r/iamverysmart
The word Lucifer is taken from the Latin Vulgate,[16] which translates הֵילֵל as lucifer,[17][18] meaning "the morning star, the planet Venus", or, as an adjective, "light-bringing".
From Wikipedia. Really obscure. What a clever guy you are.
Like you said most people don't understand.
@@master74200 So men are from mars, women are from venus...
What a deep and dark scene. And what makes it even more scary is that Bartlbe actually was right in every single word and that look on his face after Loki said - "you talking about a war on god" its was like Bartlbe understand for himself that he want to get a revenge on god. Ben gived a truly amazing performance in this. Idk why so many people said that he is a bad actor. The guy just made a few bad choices in his career but that doesn't mean he is a shity actor and that scene is proof to that.
He’s a great actor , even in the shit movies he was good, only reason we didn’t like him is Cos he banged Jenny Lopez 😩
I am convinced that this is one of the greatest scenes in cinematic history.
Same here, it is certainly one of the greatest scenes in all of film. Weird to say, but it really is in my book.
Anything talking about 🪽 view when discussing matters such as this and the intensity of the dialogue usually draws us all in haha
I get major goosebumps every time I hear that quote "You are talking about WAR. ON. GOOOD...... Well FUCK THAT! I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne!" There really isn't a more epic concept.
"I have seen what happens to the proud, when they take on the throne." favorite line from that movie.
I love the echo on Ben’s voice in this scene. It’s like they’re in a church and Bartleby’s rant is a sermon.
Kevin Smith is a fucking awesome writer.
+The Ancient Internet Troll I agreed
I've always loved this movie since day one....but it's literally been close to two decades and damn this scene is so powerful and extremely well performed. Hats off to the emotion expressed in this scene by both, especially Ben Affleck. Props to the fullest
Smith blew it out of the park with the dialog in this scene. Matt & Ben's performances were also spot on.
The raw intensity and weight of 'You sound like the morning star....you do, you sound like Lucifer man' has stuck with me for years after watching this movie.
Yeah kinda makes you wonder. Looks like an amateur hatchet job.
"I'm going back to Wisconsin." Those words are bone chilling. That is like North America's Hell.
Great scene. My favorite snippet in Dogma is when Azrael tells them, "Quit killing people, that's high profile". And Loki says, "Oh, lighten up!"
Sometimes the best scenes in a comedy film are the non-comedy scenes. This is one of them for me. I love the location ominous sound design on this scene aside from the echo. Great acting from my favorite actors as well!
" i have seen what happans to proud when they take on the throne!!!!!!!!!"
epic line!!!
I'm going back to Wisconsin.
As beautiful and absolutely spiritually devastating as this dialogue is, Kevin Smith may not get enough credit for the atmosphere of this scene. They had to be alone to speak as freely as possible about their divergent paths at this point of the story, but to set it in an empty parking garage, and to hear the echo reverberate on Loki's point about Lucifer, drives his point home in a manner that may not have had the impact it did, had this been filmed outside. Kevin Smith is a genius for that foresight.
People who say Ben Affleck can't act, I give you Bartleby.
the echos make this scene more epic
Wonderful performance! "You're talking about war on God!" Amazing scene!
Just like the fact that damon plays Loki in this movie and came back to play Loki on a play from thor ragnarok! Genius
Didn't even catch that. lol
I forgot about that lol
" and what about J and Bob I mean those guys were alright" haha love that line
'l have seen what happens to proud when they take on the throne' & 'I've heard a rant like this before, YOU SOUND LIKE THE MORING STAR! YOU DO! YOU'VE LOST IT!' As great (and true) as Azriel's speech is, l find Loki's response more profound.
Just curious, how would you compare this scene to Al Pacino's scene in The Devil's Advocate?
@@Imperia1Wrath both are incomplete beings ranting about the freedom of choice and the dangers of it, and from a certain point of view they are correct. By allowing us to have free will we have the capacity for good and evil, hate and love, action and apathy. It's the choices that make the individual though as ultimately it's up to you to decide. A good thing done for bad reasons only effects yourself whereas a bad thing done for good reasons has harsher consequences on others
You mean Bartleby not Azriel
“And in spite of it all, he has shown them INFINITE FUCKING patience”
I love that
Does anyone notice the light above Matt Damon that appears like a halo above his head in parts of this scene, it even slips a few times before he makes the morningstar statement.
Yeah it kind of does.
It's subtle and it's very clever!
What great actors we have here. They are straight uo pretending but have the emotional pull to execute such great writing! Way to go Afleck!
..and what about Jay and Bob? Those guys were alright" LOLOLOLOL
"fuck that i have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne i'm going back to wisconsin" favorite line of all time
Fuckin hell, Batman and Jason Bourne are plotting to kill Lauren from Men in Black
HOW DO YOU STOP JASON BOURNE AND FUCKING BATMAN
Memphis Hire a new editor and tell them that Lauren's name is Martha.
Jacob Okerlund I would have preferred Severus Snape but that works.
This scene is just a masterpiece! i used to watch this scene over and over when i first saw this movie!! Love and respect from Pakistan! 🔥👍
"Where was his infinite fucking patience then? It's not right! It's not fair!"
There's so much emotion in that phrase.
I love the idea of THE angel of death contemplating a "fucking war on God" and coming to the conclusion "well fuck that". This conversation has so much biblical significance to it. Gives me goosbumps
Well also, Bartleby is a much lower rank/choir of Angel, he's just a Grigori or a Watcher (guess what they do), and in this scene when Bartleby is yelling at Loki to shut up after calling him the Morningstar, he says "Shut the fuck up Sereph!", referring to Loki by his rank.
And Metatron says he is a Serephim, which he claims is the highest choir of Angel, and Sereph is short for Serephim, so Loki, being the Angel of Death, put him way up there near God, so if anything, he understood the results and consequences of going to war with God, moreso than Bartleby who was simply a watcher of humanity.
I love the natural reverb of the enormus parking lot, just great, makes their voices so big, never seen such long dialoge in such a great space. praise to the one who decided to record audio here.
i feel like we lost something when Metatron didn't tell Bartleby why God does what he does before she killed him.
"Wake up. These humans have besmirched everything he has bestowed upon them. They were given paradise, they threw it away. They were given this planet, they destroyed it. They were favored best among all his endeavors, and some of them don't even believe he exists. And in spite of it all, he has shown them infinite fucking patience, at every turn."
Stellar is right. These are words that make me think, like no other movie I've ever seen can.
Definitely one of the greatest movie speeches ever
One of the greatest movie dialogues ever
The best bad guys in film make you almost agree with them. They're not bad merely for the sake of being bad. They're bad because they have a beef with someone or something, and they make you identify (or perhaps even sympathize) with that beef. It's a product of good acting and good writing. Oh, and some guys were just born to speak the F-word profusely. John Malkovich was one, these two are another.
Killmonger in “Black Panther”.
I wish there was a dogma 2
Kevin Smith really shook up America with this movie
This scene can ony be delivered by two real best friends. It is brilliant writing brought to life by the dynamic of 2 brothers in arms. No harm, no foul....
I love contemporary POV on God and angels. The Angels are afraid of him/her.
Afraid of being without him is more like it
@@MrSFblack you see it in other shows and movies too.
Best monologue! I got into drama club in high school performing this piece haha, I didn’t really get what it was about until I rewatched it as an adult... love it every time!
"I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne"
This is the scene that made me love Ben and Matt. My favorite scene of this movie and one of all time favs. I know this scene line for line. I sometimes recite it every now and then just for the rush. Brilliant acting!
Bartleby is a much lower rank/choir of Angel, he's just a Grigori or a Watcher (guess what they do), and in this scene when Bartleby is yelling at Loki to shut up after calling him the Morningstar, he says "Shut the fuck up Sereph!", referring to Loki by his rank.
And Metatron, the Voice of God, says he himself is a Serephim, which he claims is the highest choir of Angel, and Sereph is short for Serephim, so Loki, being the Angel of Death, put him way up there near God, so if anything, he understood the results and consequences of going to war with God, moreso than Bartleby who was simply a watcher of humanity
But this also makes Bartleby make more sense as being the angry one. He, before his "expulsion from paradise", he watched over humanity, witnessed all they've done, and what Angels, from Gods commands, have done to humans, which makes sense as to how Bart & Loki became friends. And we see throughtout the movie, that Bartleby can still see and watch people, he can read them, and at the very beginning, he is seen watching humans, cause thats what his role in Heaven was. So it makes alot of sense for Bartleby to be the one to go into a rage, he hates humans for doing all the shit they've done, and since Bart is a much lower choir of angel, he doesn't know God as well as Loki, so he truly doesn't understand the wrath God can have.
And that also means that Loki, he definitely feels way more pain in the absence of the divine presence of God than Bartleby, since he was a much closer angel to God, being the Serephim Angel of Death. And Loki had always carried out Gods wrath on the humans, and eventually this racked up a guilt in him, which Bartleby discovered whilst they drank and discussed it, and this would mean that Loki has always been able to hide his pain, so thats why he is alot more lax about the plan and doesn't care as much, I mean Bartleby only ever had to watch over Humans, he never actually had to kill them, Bartleby only ever felt bad once, when he told Loki to quit his position. Loki has actually felt the pain of his wrath.
All in all, these characters have so much depth to them that I feel alot of people don't realize, Loki & Bartleby are very deep characters, and I feel Smith could've made a movie solely around them
2:46 that sudden realization
Amazing movie. I can't wait till they release this movie on streaming. So glad I got my dvd copy.
This scene was pivotal in the inspiration behind my angelic warfare series, Heavenly Realms.
Despite the movie's controversy on religion, this movie makes some good points.
Anthony Fanchin I was raised Catholic but never had faith.....
This movie seemed more pro-religion and pro faith than I expected or even wanted.
There are jokes but look deeper and the themes and characters and it seems pro faith.
I believe the outrage came from people who didn’t get it, understand it or even see it.
Some people feel and react to stuff before they think carefully about it. Always remembering they could be wrong so keep an open mind and don’t be arrogant or ignorant.
I will never understand how anyone can say that Ben Affleck is a bad actor
Is it just me, or is this Affleck's Best Performance?
Honestly I agree
My favourite scene from Dogma.
Kevin Smith nailed this scene
One of the best. Such a powerful scene.
"Well fuck that, I have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne."
The best thing about Dogma is that it doesn't ridicule religion, it asks questions about faith and blind belief but it doesn't tell you to not believe in God despite its creators and actors being mostly Atheist.
“All I’m saying here is one of us might need a little nap..”. 😂
(Claps) Wake up!! Then drops the truth (Affleck nailed it)
“You sound like Lucifer man, you’ve completely lost it!”
You're not talking about going home, Bartleby! You're talking about war on God!
@Night shade I would believe so. God is God.
This whole scene was levels of amazing that I can't even express in words.
Deep shit right there.
"INFINITE fuckin PATIENCE!
my favorite
To this day I still say this is one of the best scenes in any movie
They should have kept Azrael’s original speech to balance this one.
Say what you want about Affleck but this is one of his great pieces of work
This is an underrated scene
"Where was his infinite fucking patience THEN!?". Game, set and match!
Best scene in Dogma.
You know, you really can't fault Bartleby for being pissed, considering how extreme a punishment him and Loki suffered just for not wanting to murder.
I think its not so much not wanting to murder as it is that they quit while drunk off their ass and flip God the finger while doing so.
"You're not talking about going home, You're talking about FUCKING War on GOD..."
"War on GOD" just roles of the tongue so nicely.
This is what I love about Kevin Smith writing dialogue for these two. For the most part the movie if goofy, dopy, and humorous and can be brushed off entertainment. Then he pulls out scenes like this where you feel the emotional intensity of the characters and what it would feel like to be in their position. Fantastic acting for fantastic writing!
Always felt Ben deserves some sort of award for this scene;)
Not a fan of Affleck or Damon, but this is one of my all time favorite movie scenes
I actually like Matt Damon as an actor, and Ben can be hit or miss depending on what role he's playing. He actually played a much better Batman in the Dawn of Justice movie than I thought he would.
Yeah when i left that comment a year ago, i should've said it better. I am a fan of both guys. I just don't follow them is what I meant
But Affleck was the bomb in phantoms
Haven’t you seen “Good Will Hunting”?
@Parks 2099 *High five*
"Where was His infinite fucking patience then?"
One of the best scenes ever.
Ever since I was a kid watching this, I always loved how matt and ben are dressed in the exact same sweatshirt over t-shirt combo with the colors switched.
AFFLECK WAS THE BOMB IN PHANTOMS YO!
I like how Smith actually used a moving camera here, maybe the only ever time besides crane shots. From a plot-perspective, it was interesting to see Bartleby and Loki basically swap roles. Was this just a twist or was it necessary?
"Well fuck that, fuck that. I've have seen what happens to the proud when they take on the throne"