The War of Art - Draftsmen S2E16
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- Опубликовано: 3 авг 2020
- Drill Sergeant Stan and Major Marshall review the book “The War of Art” by Steven Pressfield. The book was written to help artists tackle some of the mental challenges that get in the way of creating. Using war as a metaphor, the author offers solutions to get things done by defeating ‘resistance’ - the difficult obstacles artists face. Both Marshall and Stan have caveats with Pressfield’s advice though, and like everything else, it depends on how you apply it.
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Show Links (some contain affiliate links):
War of Art by Steven Pressfield - amzn.to/3hZ28EL
Fantastic Beasts with Vance Kovacs - www.brainstorm-inland.com/les...
The Art of Learning by Joshua Waitzkin - amzn.to/315qSEl
Raging Bull - amzn.to/3giUaWu
The Legend of Bagger Vance - amzn.to/2DsRiHR
The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron - amzn.to/2BQOrZ4
Art & Fear by David Bayles and Ted Orland - amzn.to/30iv984
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Charlie Nicholson ( / shloogorgh )
Editing - Charlie Nicholson
Audio Engineer - Charlie Nicholson
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra
Have you read The War of Art? What are your thoughts about the book? Did we miss anything?
It was promising, but it dragged on for too long. It was just like, ik what resistance is just tell me the steps already!!! Then he started talking about the freedom of getting away from resistances and angels and god and whatever, and I lost interest. How to Unfuck Yourself is a better book in my opinion
Absolutely love this book! I don’t recall exactly what he said regarding victimhood, but based on your comments in this video - I agree with him. There is no point in complaining and playing the victim. Surely, we all have things that are painful or difficult. For example, I have type 1 diabetes. There has been a lot of pain and difficulty because of this. I know others who have it as well, and they use it as a means of playing a victim. It becomes an excuse to fail, or not to try. And that’s why it does not help. We can still thrive, despite the difficulties. Just my opinion. Note that identifying difficulties is not the same as playing a victim ;). We should identify difficulties, but focus on overcoming them. Otherwise, we risk turning into a victim when we could have thrived as an overcomer.
haven't read it yet, but maybe I will read it
I liked it before I learned more about psychology, and the role that fear plays in our lives. It's been years since I read the book, but I listened to the author on a podcast and he seemed to only talk about resistance as a negative force, with zero emphasis on the protective role that fear and anxiety play. I've had a lot more success seeing resistance as an overprotective mother who wants the best for you, but is misguided. You got to say "Hey mom, I know you want the best for me, but you gotta let me make my own mistakes"
EDIT: also when he talks about professionals vs. amatueurs...Claire Wendling was talking to Bobby Chiu about how she doesn't draw on days when she doesn't feel like it. I have a feeling there are a lot of pros that work this way, and just because someone works more erratically doesn't mean they aren't a pro- as long as they are meeting their deadlines
On that being a vessel for giving birth to art part. I find it to be about the craftsman's obsession to create perfection. To perfect the craft for the sake of the craft beyond ego, self-expression, monetary or status gain.
Petition to Marshall to write "The gardener of art". I'd love to read that
What he calls resistance, I call Inertia(as scientific as it gets) since I am from engineering background. Everything works based on inertia and human mind is no different imo. If you weren't drawing yesterday, it'll be hard to draw today or tomorrow. If you were playing games all week, it'll be hard to stop playing that game. Also, if you were drawing 8 hrs a day for a month, it'll be easier to do so the next months to come. It's is how you manipulate inertia to your benefit that will lead you to success. It's always hard to start, but once you are moving, inertia will do it for ya.
Very interesting! In my view, I'd say it's more like you try to go down from the hill safely. If you jump and brute-force it, some inevitable unexpected challenge is gonna catch your foot and you gonna get hurt (burnout, health problems, stupid mistakes). But yeah, definitely, by your logic a lot of energy will be burned every time you start something, and it makes perfect sense.
Inertia = formed habits then
Love that! consistency is key
The hard thing with drawing though, is that you dont have like a few pages you have to finish until the next day. You choose what work you do and how you learn from it. I find it so hard to know what fundamental to practice by doing "what". that i end up doing nothing. now atleast i try to draw circles everyday lol but its so hard when it comes to art.
This is very true. A great book on this is atomic habits. The only thing I’ll point out is this comment makes it sound like drawing and playing games are mutually exclusive. They can compliment each other too. Drawing can help you appreciate the details of the game and the game can give you references to draw. You don’t just have to do one or the other.
@@lulamidgeablethanks!!
resistance is anything preventing you from doing the work... anything.
me watching a draftsmen episode
Me reading the book itself
you can do the work while you listen though
@@doshi050050 Even still that would probably be some form of resistance
@@lolathelivingdoll i do that all the time lol
@@doshi050050 I was doing some portrait studies while listening so I guess that counts as work
Marshall please adopt me (32M, low maintenance, passionate about art)
1:13:35
Never heard Marshall swear before so cool 😂
But he is just reading from the book - it's not actually him swearing.
He's so cool!
Marshall is like the living Gandalf , so very wise...
Marshal the grey
I am a Marine Corp vet and this episode really spoke to me. After getting home from the middle east I worked as a professional artist for about 4 yrs before my daughter was Born. My career took me farther away from art, every time I changed jobs to make more money. Now I'm in my mid 40s trying to break back in and it has been a real struggle. Thank you for this episode it is exactly what I needed, and I went out and bought both the audio and hardcopy of The War of Art.
I love the skeptical conversation y’all are having. Brilliant material gents.
I love that book.... But I think it is aimed at people who've had more life experiences as a whole and never took on an "art career" even though they had the itch through out the years.....
49:19 The Software is called Diffuse mode of thinking, your brain just random connect chunks of information, this mode doesn't work well when you are focused on something, because you are using only your prefrontal cortex instead all your brain, that's why all the good ideas come when you are in the shower, taking a walk or doing any random automated/bored stuff like clean the house (Yes be boring make you creative) if you want to improve the ratio of random ideas, avoid your smartphone and social media.
Any books you can recommend on this subject?
GEEZ THE "DO ITTTTT" PART SCARED ME I WAS DOING WORK AT 4.25AM HERE AND I JUMPEDDD
Searching for this comment as I got freaked out so bad
Grew up in San Diego and seeing the palm trees and clay shingles through your window makes me yearn for the consistent energy I had over years. It's interesting to think about how our environments and how the affect it tries to impose. I'm also a vet, an Army Diver; and during that time, I did learn how to thrive in harsh conditions. What I loved about this video, and why I'll read the book, is making the connection between my past training and my current conditions. I live in the Seattle area, and during the 6+ months of gloom I loose motivation for everything. I will try to take the inspiration of this book to provide that extra force I need to push though. Thank you both for the invaluable information and inspiration you provide.
I am definitely reading this book today. I also read "The Art of Learning" you recommended last time ( I was not a fan of the author's persona, but I did learned tons from it, even with many disagreements I still got a lot of value back.
PS: I would love more talks about parenting + being an artist!
What's your beef with Waitzkin? (just curious:))
I don't know what is it about this podcast that makes me so happy to watch it! never missed a single episode
These conversations are too interesting. I lose sleep and go to bed WAAAY too late because of them.
Just saw this - promise I won't put my fist through your face - appreciate the thorough conversation.
Keep doing podcast it's always refreshing while working
You definitely should do more of this, it's awesome to hear a discussion of 2 legends about something I've already read to see where we agree and what I missed or misinterpreted, can even be more valuable than just receiving information and comparing it with my vague assumptions. What I mean is, it's a very effective method of forming an opinion which means that I can remember more of the important stuff, much appreciate it guys, you're awesome!
Kudos to Stan, the 21st century dad.
Thanks guys, I really enjoy the podcast, especially because it's a dialogue between you two, and not two monologues!
Thanks for sharing knowledge, it's definately helping me a lot.
I will download the audiobook of the war of art.
I love listening to you two SO much!
You are both eloquent and are a joy to listen to!
I love how you always use analogies and metaphors. It not only makes your point easier to understand but easier to remember as well
I’ve read The War of Art and personally I enjoyed Art & Fear by David Bayles and Ted Orland more
Hard agree. I think personally I'm much more of a fan of practical approaches to drawing problems & how we function than philosophical musings (A&F does take a philosophical approach, but gets to the point). Nothing wrong with sharing your thoughts and struggles with art, but it's just less appealing to me to have it written as a How To Fix Your Problem approach haha. But again agreed, if anyone is considering reading them you may find more mileage out of Art & Fear. (and if you read both: a little extra reading never hurt anyone haha)
Thanks for the recommendation. I added that book to my to read list as well. :)
UPDATE: skimmed through War of Art, and as an intrinsically self-motivated person, it didn't resonate with me much. I'm reading through Art & Fear right now and I prefer it more, too, including the writing style. So as redundant as this may be, thanks for the recommendation!
I'm currently reading it, and it's really good! I second your recommendation
Thank you for sharing such a wonderful conversation. I look forward to the next one.
My favorite episode of Draftsmen so far !
thanks forr doing this one. when this fear thing is about, nothing else matters if you don't know how to deal with. it. Great stuff!
That was deep. I find your conversations interesting, thought provoking and encouraging.
This is a great discussion to listen to! I haven’t read the book but I think Stan and Marshall having a discussion about it lead to many good points and a fantastic podcast! I hope you guys do more like this!
I would love to hear your take on “Art and Fear”. It was a book that inspired me to continue and to relax a bit with art. It was a good book for a beginner but I’d love to hear what they think of some of it
What a fascinating discussion! Thank you!
Fellows, support is PARAMOUNT. We're not islands even if we think we are. I love Pressfield's book, nevertheless this mindset of believing we achieve things by ourselves, even when we were supported by parents, friends, colleagues spouses, even for example being white in a first world country structure; at the end, we like to believe "we're self made", this is a 'grandiose' western illusion. Thanks for supporting us with this podcast, love it. Best!
That's very true. However, when I was reading it, it felt more like he was addressing the situation where you know what you need to do and you have all the resources to do it, and deep down you know you just need to start, but, instead of starting, you decide to "seek permission" from a mentor or to gather more research or to buy another How-To book (I don't remember how exactly he wrote it). Basically it was less about seeking actual help and more about looking for someone who will hold your hand even though you're fully capable of action yourself. I think Stan and Marshall just didn't elaborate enough here.
Excellent episode. This and the one on Art & Fear are some of the best.
One of the best podcast topics EVER.
This is a tremendously good podcast.
Thank you so much.
Juicy episode!! Thanks for sharing
A good review! I read the book a couple of years ago, and it's good to revisit it through others' experiences and insights. A great topic, and timely.. especially in this difficult, disruptive and stressful period where everyone struggles with motivation to some degree or other.
This is very good episode
Great podcast!
Greetings from Brazil!
It was actually cool to hear Marshall say he's trying to integrate more inclusive words in his vocabulary, even though "heroic" was a silly example 😅
It's crazy how I searched out your content, and ended up watching this video first; during a time of dire despair with my art journey. LOL, it always seems to pop up a video or discussion when needed most. It's funny how one perspective says assistance sent from God, like myself, and another from the universe or within. Loved this podcast, thanks for the consistent wisdom from you two!
Love you both
Discussion is so wise. Just addicting!
This episode was amazing!!
Love that book. Game changer for sure.
Resistance, Is something I am very good at. I am a warrior and I am trying to accept relief when It is offered to me instead of trying to do everything my way. After many years of disappointment, My career as an artist is not where it should be. Most female artists cannot fill the role of traditional Marriage and Parenting! I couldn't, I am constantly chasing my dreams and one of those dreams is having sufficient funds to work on my art all day! Being 67 I know there is not time to waist. I am going to get that book!!
This was great, one of the ones I enjoyed the most. Thank you. On heels if Marshall’s Bridgman bootcamp, would you do one on his books?
I really enjoyed listening to your opinions on the book. Getting it now and will be listening to it this afternoon!
Very interesting book and talk! I may have to check out both War of Art and Art & Fear, they both feel very topical to me. I would be very excited to hear you two discuss The Artist's Way! I've read many of Julia Cameron's books, some more than once, and I really like the vibe she has. She does make you face some hard facts but does so in and understanding manner which is particularly nice. You feel like you're not alone with your struggles and that your struggles are valid.
great episode
Oh, man! I would love if you could someday bring Jeff Watts as a guest and talk about art, art training and whatever else! :)
Thanks guys! I enjoyed your thoughts on this book.
Who disliked this video, i dont get people. Great podcast, thanks so much for doing these. The content is just invaluable.
I needed this to start working on my project, stop procrastinating and wait inspiration to hit
Can you get Jeff Watts on the podcast, would love to hear about your early days with him and his ideas about successful artists and what it takes to be one.
Damn I'd love to hear Jeff Watts on the podcast
I ordered it thank you for your thoughts on it!
The war of art is my bible for better or worse. I loved the insight and nuanced back and forth. I've always struggled with the rationalization/war metaphor bit and you guys brought a new perspective to it. Loved this one
Timestamp 24:00 I've literally lost track of all the times that Marshall says something that resonates with me so strongly that I feel we are kindred spirits. Here is another example of it. At this point Marshall points out the advantage of owning a physical copy of a book so that you can take notes in it and make it a dialogue rather than a passive read. There's no better way to internalize valuable knowledge out of a book. He's a smart man.
The 8months wife pregnant example for me make sense. I for example related to it in a way where I have the responsibility to take care of my grandpa, I cook for him, do the dishes, laundry, go to his doctor, buy his meds. And it is, sometimes feels like resistance. It takes a toll and energy, and it stops me sonetimes on things that I want to do. But its still legitimate and important.
I think this book puts an important perspective into play through the pure bluntness of it. In alot of things, but especially art, you will know that there be wolves in the forest. We need the perspective that there are unforseen walls that you will have knock down with your fists and eventually your head when your nubs get too short. I think people diving head first into things without realizing the journey ahead causes alot of problems we see today. We don't evaluate whether that journey will be worth it for us or not.
Those resistance and fake enthusiasm. Ahh that reminds me of myself. I had lots of unrealistic expectations and I burned out so bad. I still have those expectations now. I now know my problems. Thank you for this podcast.
This guy sounds awaken. He’s 💯 right. My unit was elite. We treasured being able to suffer more than anyone else. Life is war and war is hell and art is life. ✊
The best way to enjoy this book is: listen to this episode; then read the book (or listen to the audiobook); then listen to the episode once again. :D
I haven't read the book, but now I want to thanks for the recommendation.
I have a bookbinding background and is kinda of ethics and care for the preservation of knowledge to avoid alterations on the books like these 24:09. If you want to take notes and stuff, you can put post its (not so recomendable though because of acidification from the glue) and make your notes in a notebook and this will help retain better the information.
Art and fear is a banger its a quick read and very inspirational
I like your snorting laugh Stan!
1:00:00 the talk about story chapters is so inspirational 🙏
"We must do our art for our own sake"
This guy is the robot from Castle in the Sky
Thank you 🙏🏻 from the bottom !you guys always talking good stuff 👏🏻👏🏻more please!! Feed us more !! Marshall be careful when you open your door the guy might just Pistol whip you 😂😂
That’s probably the best analogy for me trying to read art books
Now I need to read this book! Motivation would be earning money from my art!
thank you for reviewing this book. I bought it and I have to say I have had a few laughs at his view on resistance. However, as a procrastinator I have to say this book has helped me identify and name my problem.
I like that he has personified resistance and I can relate to many of his comments. I didn't find the book as negative in the beginning as you suggest, but perhaps because I was in the military and I understand the mentality. I found it more humorous in the first part than it seems to the both of you perhaps.
HAHAHAHAHA!!! Every time Marshall looks into the camera to make a point I chuckle.
Good book, the metaphor of war works for me, it was properly funny and wise, but i'm not from the states so maybe its hits different.
Anyway this was great, so nice that marshal brought up william burroughs because it reminded me of that scene in naked lunch where the typewritter pressures bill to write and the adiction of it. I like that, I get a lot of adrenaline while painting or drawing so i get it.
For this and other great book recomendations thank you. You guys have helped me alot
This episode made me question my whole life once again. There's not that much "new" information from that book per se, but it gives a lot of food for thought.
Recently I've realised how instead of striving for balance in my life, I compensate. For example: yesterday I didn't get much done, so I will run myself into the ground today. It goes both ways too. Example: I've worked really hard, now I need a LOT of rest.
I still struggle with this both ways. My biggest goal, art related or not, is to be consistent. Drawing every day isn't hard for me. What is hard is not thinking about the rest of my life when I do it. I feel pressured to "make something out of it", so I don't work those meaningless jobs at some point. At the same time my only goal with art is to just draw, without getting distrscted/depressed by what life throws at me.
Not sure what Marshall’s poster in the background is of, but the out-of-the-corner-of-my-eye read came up as: BON YON: Sweet, Venison, Vacs, (vacuums) & Dandruff.
Good podcast, I've always felt like everything in life is an obstacle preventing me from getting better at art. I guess the question is, what is the correct way to look at those things?
Best, one ,yet
I've read that book 3 times. Now I'm a nomad in the Washington area trying to make a living as an artist.
Practice your battle drills of penmanship, perspective, and rendering so you can execute them without thinking. Only with mastery of the fundamentals can you successfully execute more complex operations like painting. Strategic decisions like composition and tone depend on intel of the intended audience, so you can accomplish the mission of conveying a deliberate message with your art.
Have Marshall or Stan gone through George Leonard's "Mastery"? Would love to hear their reflections on it! I felt like it had a lot of similar points to Pressfield's, but a bit more balanced and sprinkled with salt.
Procrastination and the war of art. Man these are hitting home today.
Funny to watch this transition to isolation. Now we're getting over it and just have to worry about WW3!
thanks
Isn't this week's podcast is about how to study masters ?? I really need this topic please
THIS IS INSANE(for me)
I was going to sell my copy of Art and Fear by David Bayles & Ted Orland at BookOff, TODAY, but now I feel the need to read it again, so I can compare thoughts for the next podcast!
Will definitely pick up The War Of Art when I see it. I much prefer a hard edge personality than a passive ones.
Also, I would love to hear your thoughts on Stephen King's On Writing. It may be a different craft, but I still think its inspiring for any creative field.
I'm going to write a book called "The Wort of Are" to phonetically complete the other three book title alliterations Marshall made in the beginning. Well maybe I'll just think about the idea of doing that.
Throwdown a 360 tomahawk jam. Good one.
Jon Acuff in Finish suggests that when you start getting distracted by new ideas in the middle of a goal, to just write down for later- to be looked upon after the current goal has been sufficiently finished/ reached an endpoint. So that the fear of unknown doesnt discourage from finishing a goal.
S/n- I feel like “Finish” is the nicer version of “the war of art”.
The answer to wether our art comes to us externally or internally, has to be both. The only role we have in the warehouse of our "minds" is to open and repackage all of the intellectual and emotional stuff we get from the outside and give it new address (sometimes a new composition)... the inside and outside of our minds is much the same.
Now I know I was a workaholic until this year and now I'm having imposter syndrome. Thanks for solving these things in a video. I got that book about a year ago and I still haven't read it lol. Thanks for reminding.
Thanks for the great podcast, love the book. I'd love to hear you guys discuss more philosophy and theology.
On Wikipedia - Hero is a derivative of "to serve" and "protector". There are a lot of definitions in regard to the word but interestingly "Hero" as a name appears in pre-Homeric Greek mythology, wherein Hero was a priestess of the goddess, Aphrodite. Even in Middle English, it's an alternative form of "here" (“their”). In my opinion, the word "Hero" appears to be historically gender-neutral with maybe more masculine leaning in contemporary times.
you guys should do episode on giger and beksinski
I wish I had a grandad like marshall.
All my grandparents had taught me nothing. They're just busy with their stuffs and now they're gone. I guess I just have to try to be like Marshall, a very wise grandad.
I have to read this book! If Marshall is afraid he's going to get his kicked this book sparked something in him. I'll back you up but unfortunately I'm 70 and l Iive on the east coast so you're on your own. haha
I tried to listen to the book a while back, Jake Parker recommended it in one of his videos.
When I looked up reviews for it, people either adore it or hate it and I totally see why.
I didn't dislike it, but I found it very harsh at times. It made me feel bad about my self, that the reason I'm not good is that I'm lazy.
I think I read it at a bad time in my life, where I was already struggling to do the work and mental health, and it might get better on a second read.
Stan talked about relationships and the possibilty of misinterpret it as resistance. But can it be the case sometimes ? When some of my friends ask me to go out, I am often hesitant, because sometimes I see it as a waste of time, as I should use this time to study art (i'm self teaching), but at the same time I don't want to lose my friends by neglecting them. What are your thoughts on that ? I would like to have advice on that, about balancing art and relationships.