Bad Teachers - Draftsmen S2E26
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- Опубликовано: 9 июн 2024
- Sometimes we’re stuck with bad teachers and when that happens, what do you do? Marshall and Stan address the frustration of one high school art student that’s facing this problem by trying to provide them with workable solutions. They also answer a few additional voicemail questions on learning how to teach art, how to increase output for commissions, and more.
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00:00 - Intro
01:51 - Letter from listener
03:59 - Stan’s response
05:40 - Marshall takes over
08:56 - Marshall Advice 1: Draw the Bad Teachers
10:26 - Marshall Advice 2: Make up stories about them
14:45 - Marshall Advice 3: Wait it Out
17:48 - Stan’s Bad Art Teacher
21:29 - Voicemail 1: Paleo Art
23:04 - Marshall’s answer
27:18 - Stan’s answer
38:55 - Voicemail 2: Inheriting the Proko Empire
41:47 - Voicemail 3: Produce Art Faster
49:27 - Story about Making Pots from Art and Fear
54:30 - Sign off
Show Links (some contain affiliate links):
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William Stout - proko.com/draftsmen-media/wil...
James Gurney - proko.com/draftsmen-media/jam...
Caller Robert Jack’s website: apt22art.com
N.C. Wyeth - proko.com/draftsmen-media/n-c...
Auguste Rodin - proko.com/draftsmen-media/aug...
Honoré Daumier - proko.com/draftsmen-media/hon...
George Bridgman - proko.com/draftsmen-media/geo...
Art and Fear by David Bayles and Ted Orland - amzn.to/36TfsYP
Stephen Bauman - proko.com/draftsmen-media/ste...
Mastery by Robert Greene - amzn.to/2FgYSqz
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#artteacher #selftaughtartist #teachingart
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ABOUT DRAFTSMEN
Stan Prokopenko and Marshall Vandruff are art instructors. If you love the arts, particularly the craft of drawing and painting and image-making… and you want to level up your skills or even make a living with your skills, we are here to answer your questions. We’re here to offer you advice, refer you to our resources, share your love of the craft and maybe inspire you! Learn to Draw - www.proko.com Marshall Vandruff - www.marshallart.com. Subscribe to the podcast at bit.ly/DraftsmenPod
CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Charlie Nicholson, Sean Ramsey (www.peoplewhodrawstuff.com)
Editing - Charlie Nicholson
Audio Engineer - Charlie Nicholson
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Intro Jingle - Tommy Rush ( / tommyrush )
Music Used with Permission Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra
Describe the best teacher you’ve had and what they’ve done for you.
Stan and Marshall, of course! They've made it seem possible for me to actually make this art thing work, they inspire me a lot.
Stan, obviusly! Sorry Marshal but until you don't do that damn perspective course I can't say you have teach me anything
I connected w my teacher and we became friends. He knew I had a rough life and I found comfort in drawing and learning all about it, so he put some care into making sure I didn't give up my passion :)
Rest in peace, F. Will forever miss ya!
Glenn Vilppu
Ramon Alexander Hurtado, great artist and great teacher. He helps you understand complex stuff in a very smooth way, just by presenting you strategies to have a structured train of thought when you are drawing or painting.
"A Marshall is never late, Stanislav Prokopenko. Nor is he early. He arrives precisely when he means to".
that would be a great cover image for the next vid... gandalf and frodo
Stan said: "CEO, ect"
And I think: "UFO"
Thanks for answering my voicemail! You gave me some outstanding advice. I had no idea I was stepping on such a landmine by declaring myself "self taught." I thought that was the generally accepted shorthand for "I've never attended art school." I'm 34 years old, and I was homeschooled from start to finish. I never took an art class in my life, and I was drawing well before the Internet entered our home. In recent years, I have thoroughly enjoyed RUclips channels like that of James Gurney, so yes, I suppose I have received and education in that sense. But it's not structured like a formal class, and I'm left with little frame of reference for running such a class myself. If I were to purchase your online courses, Stan, I would no longer proclaim myself "self-taught." I meant no offense.
I do struggle with a great deal of insecurity. You were keen to observe that. That probably lies at the heart of my problems with teaching. But the thing that eludes me the most is structure. I sit down and I draw/paint without consciously thinking the process through. I just follow what feels and looks right. I don't know how to teach that. But anyway, thanks again for your thoughts on the matter.
I've listened to this podcast for a while now and have been noticing more and more that these guys can get really irascible and snarky during the question segments. Reaching out to a teacher involves making oneself vulnerable. From the perspective of a listener, who has not written in myself - and wouldn't: a lot of negative assumptions tend to get made about the questions and questioners, an obvious example from this episode being Stan’s interpretation of the common parlance phrase 'self-taught' as some kind of valour theft.
In my opinion, the mark of a good teacher is an ability to answer questions, even imperfectly formulated ones, in a helpful and encouraging way, without being disparaging or projecting bad motives onto the questioner or going meta.
@@Ty-1452 words has meaning, and seems like almost imposible to be self taught. If you are fully self taugh you are doing outsider art, and thats has a lot of value and very demanded because for the same reason that is very rare for someone to be fully self taught.
Right!?. I mean in some way, aren't we most if not all self-taught when It comes to art? Like there are so many ways people adapt,improve & using refrence that goes outside the teaching classes. Making your own style from all different resources is still self-taught and pffff.. drawing is Hard lol, we all should take pride of that working for hours and hours hopefully to make the most awesome art we create
I strongly disagree with Stan's criticisms of the term "self-taught," especially as he did have the privilege of going to a great art school, Watts Atelier, and lives somewhere like Southern California which has a huge arts culture and lots of opportunities to learn outside of formal university-style colleges.
In a formal environment you have structure, feedback, a large community and legitimacy, not to mention simply the time to learn and grow (three or four years entirely dedicated to art). Regularly (if not every day) going to a class where you can find inspiration or constructive criticism or encouragement from your peers or instructor is massive.
Self-taught artists, some of whom may not have been in an area with good art schools, couldn't afford them or simply didn't realise they want to be an artist until later life, they have to recreate all of those things by themselves. You have to balance learning art with a career/family. You have to give yourself feedback or else try and secure feedback from communities online, some of which can be of pretty low quality. You have to set your own schedules and motivate yourself to stick to them. You have to plot out lessons and hope they'll get you to where you need to go. You have to be potentially be entirely reliant on photographs because you don't live near a life drawing class. You have to face people saying, explicitly or implicitly, "don't quit your day-job." You might not even know any other artists that share your passions or that match or exceed your own skill level.
I'm not suggesting art students themselves don't have to work hard or don't face the same struggles when they graduate, but being self-taught DOES make a difference to what the quality of your 'art journey' is like, especially if you experience mental health problems, so I resent the accusation that claiming even the slightest bit of valour by using the expression 'self-taught' is 'disrespectful.'
Yeah I have to agree with this. When you have the privilege of being in a formal teaching environment in real life, with other students you see several days a week, assignments/homework, and with real-time guidance/critiques from the instructor, you end up being a hell of a lot more motivated and productive. Not to mention you’re able to compete with your peers, and you’re paying money. There is plenty of both positive and negative motivation to keep yourself on track and productive. It’s even more helpful if you don’t have to work a job and can dedicate all your time to learning.
It’s literally a night and day difference which gives one a ridiculous edge over someone that just learns by themself at home. I would literally kill to be in such a position, but I have to work and I don’t have nearly enough money for classes.
*pause video* ....Stan, I don't think we need a new term for being self taught. What you described in the video-someone who avoids all instruction-is literally impossible, and I would never ever assume that is what someone means when they describe themselves that way. It took until the renaissance for artists to understand perspective. You ain't doin' it on your own. However, I agree with you that online instruction is not given due credit. I would love to be able to proudly say Stan Prokopenko taught me anatomy, and not be met with "oh so you watched some videos" in a dismissive way. Maybe with the way things are going, that change is just around the corner. I hope so. Your lessons have been incredibly valuable to me. And I am looking forward to Marshall's Perspective class... although I have gone ahead and read a book on the subject. Sorry! Couldn't wait!
I thought it was strange that Stan was looking to redefine the term "self taught". Maybe because he himself had some formal training (and therefore a bit out of touch), but I thought that it was universally understood that being self-taught means not attending formal courses or directly mentored by another person.
Also, Stan has expressed annoyance at the term, but I think it should be celebrated! I think it's great if an artist can make it by themselves without tailored, formal input.
By definition Stan is correct and that anatomy course is a perfect example. You have a lengthy, well structured course that could be taught in a formal school but is just organized to be studied at your own pace and priced per course. Going thru all that and saying you are 'self taught' pretty much awards you for googling "anatomy lesson" instead of the people who did all the work organizing the information.
A guitar lesson would be a good example too. It's quite different to listen to records and try to emulate them, which a lot of rock guitarists did a few decades ago, than to watch hours of video of someone with a multi camera setup and proper lighting painstakingly showing every note and hand position on the "Stairway to heaven" solo. The prior method could be considered self taught. The latter is "learning from youtube" by the least. 'Tube taught' :)
You live in a major US city and are under 30 am I right? It wasn't long ago there were no computers, no TV, and even today, these things are unavailable to MOST parts of the world including parts of the US. Electricity is not univeral, areas and schools are too poor to fund libraries. If you are an artist in rural China or N Korea you are self taught by necessity - there are no other options available to you.
Marshal needs to tell us what books he has behind him :).
Agree
Lmao I just commented that as well!
Absolutely
bookshelf tour!
Yas pleasee!
It's interesting to hear about Stan's opinion of the term "self-taught". I never really considered how it could be insulting for someone in his position, to have people view his videos and learn from them, while still calling themselves that. Self-taught for me has always meant not being given structure, support and feedback while learning, even if you do acquire knowledge from books, guides or videos made by other artists. As a result, there is a certain sense of pride in telling others that you are self-taught, because it means that to get where you are now, you've had to find motivation and give yourself structure, as well as be your only critique and relying mostly on yourself to identify and solve the problems in your art. That can be hard, especially if on top of that, people around you haven't been supportive of your project. At the same time, I always thought being self-taught could be seen as a flaw, if you believe for instance that not having formal training means you're lacking some theory or practice that is essential. It can feed the imposter syndrome and make you feel as if you're not qualified for jobs.
I agree with Stan. I also dont agree with the widespread definition of being "self taught". We source information from all sorts of places, books, articles, videos, podcasts - information presented to us by other people, so we can learn. The information may not be structured in a curriculum, it may even be messy sometimes, but its there provided to you. You didnt figure out the information on your own. Getting feefback/structure is just another layer of help, and its such an arbitrary reason to have it define being "self taught". Does the information by itself not matter?
It honestly seems silly when people self-proclaim themselves as self taught, its like a virtuous title of some sort - I DID EVERYTHING MYSELF. No, you didnt. You navigated through the clutter of the internet to reach an information that you wouldnt have if not for someone trying to teach you something.
@@petarpehchevski3d338 I don't think anyone is a 100% impermeable to other people's knowledge and examples, so if I go by your definition I think it's almost impossible for someone to be fully self-taught. So the percentage of self-teaching depends from person to person, and how often they seek ressources online or elsewhere. You can tackle a lot of problems by yourself just by observing nature and experimenting, although it may take longer. I think you can both be thankful for the knowledge other people have shared with you and be proud of what you were able to learn by yourself. And I think you are allowed to feel pride and accomplishment for being able to kick your own butt to learn, without exterior motivation to do so. It's not silly, in my opinion, and it doesn't necessarily mean you are diminishing all the work of the people providing art ressources. However, I'll admit that perhaps we don't express our respect and give enough credit to those who share this knowledge, and it's worth taking the time to really assess their contribution to our own growth, and be grateful for it.
@@xboxswitch9457 I agree with you that people can use the words they want, but I would argue that discussing definitions, if done respectfully, can be an interesting thought exercise. :)
Yes, you're right. Self-taught is what you described, not "he who teaches himself". What Stan did is called "etymological fallacy", is like when people say "quarantine is a 40 days isolation" because that's what the etymology suggests. Stan is usually sharp-minded, but he's wrong here. Of course, when people receive online classes, like one of the examples he gave, they're not self-taught.
@@finnikas6867 I guess what drove my response was mostly how surprised (some even opposed) people are in the comments that stan took offense to his videos not being credited accordingly, as in its so standardized for people to think they're doing all the work just by finding the information, that god forbid someone take credit for helping them learn by putting that informatiom there. I think thats what left a bad taste in my mouth to be honest.
I never had a good art teacher at school. Either they just sit there and told us to do random stuff for 2.5 hours or they took 2 weeks absence from teaching. That's a shame because I always look forward for art classes.
I also had that, but that was kinda fun because then I could learn what I wanted, but it's a bit hard if you don't know where to start and you just wanna leave because you feel like there's no real reason for you to be there.
I live near Daytona Beach. This is a huge hub of art leagues, guilds and studios.
However, I can't find one single watercolor class worth my time and money. Occasionally, there's a 6 session class that is beneficial. But most "teachers" here are like studio homeroom monitors. They just sit and paint, pass out reference photos, and get annoyed when you ask them to help you with the painting. It's frustrating.
There is not a single person in the history of the planet who learned art entirely and exclusively themselves, from nature and observation (to the point of being able to live off of their art). The "self-taught" Stan described doesn't exist, at all. Self-taught always meant learning from whatever sources you desired without being evaluated and corrected by someone.
What about Neanderthal cave paintings?
I've learned, in my 68 years on earth, to NEVER say never.
@@AFAskygoddess if there was a neanderthal who made a living as an artist and never seen art before, I take my words back.
Hi Stan and Marshal! I believe the difference between being taught and the way most people use the "self-taught" term doesn't have to do with watching/attending a lesson, but what comes next: getting feedback, working based on that feedback and getting evaluated. We can all watch Stan RUclips videos a thousand times each but it is hard to know if we are doing something wrong that we are not noticing. It's hard to identify our strengths and weaknesses without proper feedback. That process has to become internal and learning from our own mistakes with practice and experience is what might make someone feel "self taught". It's the difference between "this is what you are doing wrong" and "I now understand what I've been doing wrong".
The intro to this episode feels like a family friendly sitcom
I feel like this may only be tangentially related to the topic at hand, but if you are ever having difficulty learning something from one teacher, try to learn that same information from another. "Samantha" is clearly suffering from teachers who are just plain bad at teaching, period, but another issue people can have is a teacher not being the right fit to teach that particular student. Even if five people are all teaching the same subject, the same information, they all have their own slightly different interpretations of things, their own views on what the most important part of a particular set of information is.
This realization was so powerful for my growth as an artist, that I could study the same information from different people and get more out of it. It actually came because I had watched the whole Proko series on heads probably 4-5 times, taking detailed notes every time, doing dozens of pages of practice on every step, and while I improved immensly, I still wasn't quite happy with my results. Then, after like 2 years of struggling, I tried watching another video, also on the loomis method, and something about the way this guy phrased the exact same information just clicked with me, and I started to improve rapidly, finally happy with what I was drawing. It happened so quickly and immediately that I can't even remember whose video it was.
Stan is still my go-to teacher for everything anatomy, but now I always look for multiple sources of information every time I try to learn something new in art, because sometimes one person's brain just seems to work a little more similarly to my own, and they are better at teaching me personally.
Yeah I was thinking of the same thing. Even someone who is considered an excellent teacher by many isn't going to reach some students, and another teacher will. It's just the way people are.
One of my favorite teachers was my geology professor. His enthusiasm for rocks got me so excited about the rock structures around me, thinking about their formation, content etc. It was one of those courses I was sad to finish.
"Bad Teacher " Boy I can say that whole hearty for years in Art School ,long ago, there was little or none teaching form our art teacher. It was very obvious that the ones in our class that were strong in art were pretty well self taught. And yes all of us choose to be there and after graduation we were on my own and it took years of search and search for art knowledge. After 40 some years in another career in Electronics , finally got back to my love of art and still at 85 , enjoy a full enjoyment in Watercolor of choice
lmao, marshalls´ "DID YOU SING" (with such a happy kid voice) gives me life!
Totally agree with you Stan about the term 'self taught'. I like the terms Formal and Informally educated. My best teacher was an archaeology teacher when I was in secondary school (UK), I was fifteen. He told me, education will always be available if I needed it, at any age and that I could never be too old to learn.
dude Stan looks so dramatic with that lighting XD, love the show keep it up.
What, no garbage truck?
I find more and more I very much admire Marshal's temperament and mode of expression.
One thing to keep in mind in improving is the iterative process. You can look into Sycra's video about it but essentially, do the same thing over and over. Keep in mind doing one thing the best you can do at a time is better,
E.g.
Draw the best "eye" in 5 mins, then just repeat that.
Don't do 5 drawings at the same time. Do the best you can in a limited time. That promotes much more growth.
When I was in highschool I also had teachers who didn't care much about teaching and students who only took the class for the art credit. No one in my school had an interest in drawing and to this day I'm still looking for friends who like drawing, anyway. What I did back then was choose that if my school wouldn't teach me how to draw then I'll teach myself, and I'll prove the teachers wrong (I know that's a very teen attitude) and I feel like I improved so much and did so much personal work, I never took a single art class seriously and I actually saw them as an extra lunch break but it gave me so much time for personal improvement
I had a great calculus teacher. Homework was assigned every class and he would grade only one of the questions assigned to us. Our textbook had the answers for odd number questions in the back and so he always used odd numbers. We had to show our work to reach the answer systematically and writing the correct answer was only a small part of the grade. ***The best part was that at the beginning of every class he dedicated to answering questions from the previous day's homework.*** One student would ask questions and we could correct our homework while he worked through the entire problem on the board. He also explained a few practical applications of why learn a topic which can be very motivating and help with visualization.
to be honest i get this a lot but i switched schools so much i stopped giving a shit, i worked myself to death already so im chillin waiting to go for art school and just draw all the time. tbh, you can be self taught, but having one mentor or art buddy who knows a lot is a super big help cuz thats a whole new pair of eyes ready to bring you horizons youve never even thought of.
Advice for wanting to become a teacher: being a good artist doesn't necessarily mean you will be a good teacher. Study the fundamentals of teaching and learning Theory. Don't shoot the dog is one of the best books I've read on this subject. Definitely take classes and see how other teachers structure their classes. Think of what works well and what you would have done differently. Try to take classes on subjects that are completely new to you so that you understand what it feels like to have a learning curve and to have a mentor guide you through it. Practice lesson planning and teaching. Practice breaking down difficult skills into manageable steps. Record yourself explaining/ demonstrating different art concepts you want to teach and replay it to see if it was cohesive, logical, and easy to understand. When you feel confident, try teaching 1 on 1 tutoring sessions and build up to more students. And above all: listen to feedback.
Feedback is the most important thing for a teacher! also, thank you for the book recomendation ;)
The best teachers are the one's that have told me what I need to hear, without holding back.
If you find “self taught” incorrect, what about using the term “ home schooled”?
Hey ‘Samantha’, hope it’s okay that I give my ‘two cents’ here. I’m a teacher at a middle/highschool in the netherlands. I would say to you to go to the principle, board of directors or parentgroup or something like that to voice your issues. If teachers aren’t doing their job, they should be monitored and change their work. In The Netherlands a student can do that, they go to the principle and (s)he would talk to the teacher(s) to change their ways.
Otherwise I’d say, find your teachers - online like Proko or NMA or fellow students (you said that there were fellowstudents that have ‘talent’ or an interest in the subject - and you can together coach eachother like Draftsmen talked about earlier.
Good luck. Highschool can suck, but we have to make it better for everyone, so also the students that will follow after you.
Great advice. Don't just wait for your parents to step in. Part of being an adult is stepping in on your own behalf. A very respectable move at an early age.
Super great advice! We did that in high school with part of our group because we learned nothing with the teacher, and whenever we had to show our work she said to bring stuff we did outside of class/other years so she could grade that too!
It was a ruckus! Seems like everyone got angry that we did that, but in the end we did get "normal art classes" with that teacher, so it worked!
Marshall has a great voice for ads
Yay! Make caricatures of your teacher! That is one of the things I used to do in high school to relieve myself of stress!
This podcast is pure gold
I want to know every book in Marshall's library.
I've just skipped to this episode in second season by recently having a bad teacher in the academy, and thinking about the third voice mail regardin "art faster" I came to the same answer by making the example of the athlete, one just not get better by going to competitions, one gets better by training everyday (quick sketch, and other studies) and one test his abilty by going to the competitions (making final pieces with details you might not work in quick sketch and had to focus to go deep into the technic or else)
love this podcast
The view outside Marshall's window looks so cool
Looking back at some of the teachers I had at the time, I didn't realize how much I learned from them until many years after I was their student. Even the ones I thought were bad teachers back then had said something or taught something I didn't care for at the time. I realize now that I'm older some of the things they said were very helpful.
Stan, you have the right to be not too satisfied with the word "self-taught" but you know the colleges and universities, also known as formal education, exist for the sake for supervision, it does not matter that someone "acquires" information with Bridgman books or your videos, information is everywhere, supervision is the key and if you can achieve a certain level of skill without "supervision" that is absolutely something to admire and be proud of.
So edit out some of the salt and learn from Marshall, look at how decades of accumulated knowledge and experience can emit a more mature response to a simple question.
The best art teacher I've had so far was my graphics design teacher. Sadly she taught me only for two years, but those two years were probably the most important years of my life because of various struggles that life gave me. I'm very thankful for her, teachers really do change people.
Marshall should have sang his apology and Stan should have sang about what he is drinking waiting for Marshall. Its such a fun intro to have a song before the serious bits of podcast.
I love the Tuesday morning Draftsmen podcast!! I Hope it never ends! -said in the voice of Marshall Vandruff
Marshal Vandruff is awesome.
As a student, the best teacher for me is one that gives best homework.
All the popular teachers are the ones who skips teaching and talk dumb unrelated stories. Those are okay since they boost attention, but they were never helpful when I think back(more so because I am more of attentive type). Most of what is taught goes right through our ears without on-hand experience i.e. homework. I had only a handful of art teachers but the ones who figured out my problems and gave homework accordingly bestowed me much wanted improvements. Teachers tend to give less attention to students after some time has passed, and they start giving same mundane homework. That's when I know I have to find a new teacher.
Ooh, good point!
I love these guys. Even if there wasn't anything to learn or glean, I'd still listen to their banter and keen perspectives.
Edit: May I say, that I hope Stan doesn't leave this world too soon. His son and wife surely love him and I lost my mom in my 20s. It sucked and it ruined me for about 3 years.
Stan, you don't have to tell us who will run your business, but it's a fantastic question, nonetheless.
I'm so sorry you lost your mom at such an important age. 20's are the most transformative wildest times in our lives and I don't know where I'd be right now without my mom going through this horrible divorce at 27. I wish you strength and love in your life
@@didi1406 I'm so sorry for your troubles as well. Divorces can be icky. I wish you the best, Cyn. Hopefully it ends on good enough terms. If not, remember that you have yourself and hopefully some really great people in your life that have your back. That can be such a beautiful, wonderful thing to have a safety net.
Stay beautiful, Cyn.
🤗 *hugs* ❤🎃💛💚💙💜🖤
Just that starting bit earned a like
I have that exact same dream that Stan described every Fall. I can't find my locker. The class has already started and I don't know where the classroom is. I missed the bus and I don't have shoes on.
This Sophomore was me in High School. The teacher was a little more hands on, but she is a Fine Arts Masters, and even when I went back to visit 12 years later, she STILL did not see my art as art, even though I am self-employed and people buy the products that I make with my art on it and ask to commission me frequently. I was like wtf, lady, when I left.
She was a HARSH contrast to the teacher that I had as a Sophomore in Community College. She was fantastic and also taught art history. :)
I had a terrible art teacher in highschool who would always pick on me. I always used to draw as a kid and was very good for an early teenager but she was so awful that she inspired me to stop drawing for 5 years. Now I'm desperately trying to catch back up.
I’ve not been very lucky with teachers. My school art teacher was weird. He stroked your hair when sitting next to you and was also a bit of a bully. My college teacher would tell you that your work was rubbish, but wouldn’t give any advice on how to improve or much art instruction in general. More recently I was told by a teacher to drop most of my skills and was discouraged from even trying things because they’re hard. I mostly learn from online courses and books. In that sense I could say I’ve had a lot of teachers, even though I haven’t met most of them. Whenever I’ve felt stuck in these types of situations books have been a good escape, helping me to feel connected to people that display more of the qualities that I aspire to. I’ve also found that it’s best to take responsibility for your own learning and not to rely on any one teacher.
31:49: "Teaching is the process of attending to people's needs, experiences and feelings, and making specific interventions to help them learn particular things."
IMO Unless you're taking your time to individually catter to each of your students needs individually, you're not teaching, you're making videos and writing books, it is the student's motivation and perseverance to pick up the books and watch the videos and interpret the information contained therein on their own. There is teaching and there is information transfer.
Lol the intro!!
I hope you guys discuss too your advise for full-time employees who also want to pursue art even with their quite hectic schedule.
Another thing this young person could do is go over the head of the lousy teacher and get on Zoom/Skype with the other classmates (the ones that are interested). From there they as a micro-community could discuss what they need to pass the class (the bare minimum) and work together to help each other get thru the class. In addition each student could pick a medium or artist they are interested in and the whole community could read up or copy some of the artist's work. This way everyone is learning in spite of the lousy teacher hindering the students progress.
I have many teachers that I loved, but I'd have to say the most important one recently is actually Ceaser Santos, who my first introduction to was here on Proko. And not because of any specific art skills that I learned from him but rather because he taught me how an artist thinks and lives and that just opened up a whole new way of approaching life for me, and that it's not an undesirable thing to be that way.
My collage drawing teacher looked me strait in the face and said why are you even in my class. After a year of being treated like that I couldn't pick up a pencil for about 3 or 4 years after that.
My, I often had the exact same dream Stan had: Looking at my schedules at school, while being late and not being able to figure out where the current class is. Now I am actually certain what circumstances cause those dreams and why they only occured from time to time in my past, namely when I finished a big milestone in my life or left without prospects or a clue for the next direction or steps. Like when I got my first degree and the exact same thing happened with my second degree. Since I became a freelance artist with a clear life time goal I never had this dream again.
THE QUESTION TO STAN. I LAUGHED OUT LOUD.
These time code captions sound like movie titles lmao. Marhsall Advice 3: Wait it Out. Watch on netflix.
who else hoped that Stan would sing?
You know Marshall sings to us while we patiently wait for you...
If you want to do a job faster than cheat. Jobs are not about the process but the result. Work digitally, use templates, draw over reference. Use 3d software and tools to figure out your lighting or pose or whatever. If you work in traditional media then do your tests sketches, digitally, use printers, light table, projectors. Project your digital stuff over a canvas. etc
At my highschool the beginning art classes were weak because none of the students took it very serious and were annoying and the attitude of the teacher was different than the higher levels. Now maybe that's the case for "Samantha" or maybe not. Perhaps there's a different teacher for the higher level art classes? Get your lessons from online teachers, free or paid and use your time in class to improve. Make your own lesson plans or projects and make your time in that class work for you.
I had a great photo teacher in high school that made me love art and she supported me so much that I realized that's what teachers should be. She frowned upon me ditching lunch or class to spend time in the dark room but still turned the other cheek to it. She submitted my work to shows and competitions and showed me books and even gave me supplies one of her friends were giving away. She pushed me and critiqued me and made me a better photographer/artist. I had some of my best memories of my life in the class and doing work for that class and all it took was a teacher who gave a shit. I really wish everyone had at least *one* teacher like that in their life. To know what it's like for someone to give you everything you need to fly and to catch you when you fall.
I also hate the term self taught. If you're 100% self-taught, you're gonna be trash and take much longer to improve. People use it as a form of pride and it comes from this idea that your art isn't legitimate if you aren't learning uphill both ways.
I think the hate for 'self taught' is a bit too much, what 'completely self taught' I would take to mean is that he hasn't undertaken formal training like college or an atelier, like Marshall was getting at. I've taken a Proko course, and some other online lessons, and I don't consider those things formal training. In formal training you generally have a teacher's eye over your work, while you work, and feedback on your work, all the time. You don't get those from the individual online courses you get. These things are the same as getting a book on a subject, (for instance I have the James Gurney book : Color and Light), and trying to learn from the information that's contained within it. That's still self teaching. It's just a different method of presentation. Also, honestly in my experience (in both computer science and art school), a lot of online classes are more akin to self teaching than formal training/classes anyway. We've got a long way to go for online classes to be equivalent to in person classes.
so all it takes to have a marshall only podcast is to impregnate stans wive...ah, would we have known that earlyer :p
nice episode, looking forward to what comes next and good luck, happy time with the baby.
Can we please get a Marshall's shelf tour
I'm in highschool I never expected anything from artclass.
I had awful art teachers in College, but I couldn't leave because the state college I went to was free for me, and If I left I would have had to pay for an education I couldn't afford. Instead I taught myself as well as finish getting my degree. We have the advent of the internet, and books, take advantage of these things and teach yourself, and if you're passionate and disciplined, you'll learn faster than any school could teach you.
I can relate to Samantha. While i don’t have bad art teachers, I feel like I can be learning even more online. Plus i’m a sophomore on the east coast as well lol.
In my country, bad teachers are everywhere. It's as if every semester/quarter, at best, only (mind you, only) a couple of teachers can motivate you to come to class because most of them are unappreciative or disencouraging or unprepared. They're very unprofessional to be honest. Some even bullies students. I've really had enough of my country's ineffective teaching practices. I wish the next generation wouldn't experience this anymore, they just don't deserve it.
Welcome to art class in the American public school system Samantha! You’ll be lucky to pick up even a handful of useful points. Was not much more than a study hall with arts and crafts when I was in high school. Thank god for the internet!
That second voicemail sounds like a Halloween prank.
That Eastern guy with the dark question lmao
HAHAHAHAH that dude who asked about stan's death x'D
This sounds exactly like every art class in my country ever 🙃
Marshal should interview Drew Struzan.
Omg!! That dream can keep happening even when you get older?!!!! damn...my hopes died XD ...anxiety forever XD
how do you find art jobs or commissions ?
haha. that intro cracked me up.
It's funny how something came from nothing. Stan not being there served for this fun moment.Take care!
My comic stroyboard teacher he made everything simple but giving everything the importance it had.
when they smile, I'm smile ))
Hi, I myself am trying to learn art on my own (meaning no art school and no art classes), and it had never even occured to me before watching this that the term 'self-taught' could be used as a way of bragging.
I've always felt that being 'self-taught' makes me kind of not a 'real' artist. Not being able to attend traditional art school or classes I`ve always been worried that I might be missing out on important fundamentals without realizing it or doing things wrong without anyone there to point it out for me. I think a lot of people use the term more as a protective phrase so that they wouldn't be judged too harshly for lack of skill for example.
~ 29 minutes, you were talking about being self-taught. I think a better description would be directed-learning because, for myself, I target what I want to know and then learn all I can about it. Maybe your new word can be "directed-learning". And that can include learning in classes.
I haven't gone to a class in an university but I've taken the online art courses and books I've gone through very seriously so in the end I don't think I need it. I don't think there is much I could learn from it at this point.
"Should you take a class?" *shows ad for thegreatcourses
perfect timing
That man was binod from India , who asked proko empire , he is a prank man
In my opinion if you have a bad teacher give them some feedback. If you deliver it to them in a constructive
way they may listen. This is coming from a game art teacher :)
we can replace the word self-taught with self-study or self-learning. What do you think?
Informal Education
Informally educated
If it helps anyone, in my country art classes in school is not really a thing. At most we learn art history, and a lot of public schools don't even have that. Here it is a privilege to be able to have art classes as a regular course at school. I dont even need to mention that art jobs are even more risky here than in places like the US. Despite all of this, many people take up art in a young age and don't expect anything handled to them. They save for courses outside of school or generally just practice a lot at home.
I'm kinda dumb and only started to take art seriously after I went to college, and even then public colleges are not the greatest when it comes to technical stuff. If I had known this podcast back then I would probably have skipped art school, but I'm making the most of my community and few good teachers that I have.
So don't think that just because your environment is not ideal, you can't push through and find your own way :)
31:18
How about "internet-taught" ???
Man When I was Small I don't even knew that I will be following art.
proko: use a different word
me: *autodidact*
Robert Jack, I love your work, if you teach a course online I'll buy it
Thanks a million!
All high school art classes are like that though
The disgruntled art student might try to engage the art teacher with questions concerning the missing pieces of the art lesson. If students had a syllabus of the semester's lessons at the start of the year, they could research in advance and be ready to ask questions. Maybe the teachers are disengaged because so many students are just there for the easy 'A'. I've noticed that the majority of my art teachers were unbelievably BAD at explaining things - I believe it's because often their preferred language is visual, not verbal. Best of luck to you - the sooner you find out that you actually ARE on your own, the sooner you will become your own best advocate.
I use proko videos to show to my students online 😂
High school teachers get disengaged because their students couldn't give a smaller shit about their classes. You can just engage them by simply telling them that you do. They should notice, but it is not always easy. Go to them and tell them that you love art and you would appreciate if they give you assignments and review your stuff.
I would NEVER go back to high school years. I wish for every student had really good teachers and every school allowed room for all the arts for every student.
Stan, please work on your Rembrandt lighting - it's taking on a distinctive Halloween mystique. Lots of dark shadows - light is on one side of the room.
My mind jumped to something else when they said they where nervous about teaching. It was maybe they should take a class on public speaking instead and getting used to speaking about the subject in front of people. Also taking a course on video editing may be useful as will.
I was learning on my own ? or maybe the internet student ? or independent student ?
A Marshall only podcast? Yes. No offense though Stan your fantastic too.
I’m kinda surprised how sassy and disagreeable Stan has become since he first started doing interviews with people back in 2014/2015. He’s gotten more confident, but simultaneously also a little arrogant/snarky. Maybe I’m just looking too much into it.