Kerdi-Coll 14 Day Flood Test - NOT WHAT I THOUGHT!
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- Опубликовано: 5 сен 2024
- A follow up video to the Kerdi-Coll video I recently did : • WHAT is KERDI-COLL-L??...
While it performed immensely better than without kerdi-coll, I was surprised to see any water migration at all.
I am not sure if water vapor has anything to do with the moisture, or if I should have done 2 coats instead of one (per ardex 8+9 Instructions). Not sure how a waterproof rubber membrane can let any moisture pass. But I know that water vapor can pass through stuff that water droplets can't. The way I understand it is: If a cooler surface (the side of the membrane with the water in it) meets a warmer air surface (the side of the mock up without water in it), water vapor molecules will be drawn through to the other side. Probably some kind of physics involved, which is way over my pay grade. I know that certain membranes are rated for steam showers, and some are not. I believe Laticrete Hydroban is not rated for steam showers because it allows to high of a vapor transmission rate. I doubt Ardex 8+9 would met steam shower vapor requirements either.
Anyways, hope you like the video.
I've just done the Schluter Specialist Installer course Isaac and it's not designed to be used as a waterproofing membrane in itself. It's a seam sealer so whereas in the U.S you use thinset to bed the Kerdi band into, over here you use Kerdi-coll instead. It goes under the band, not over it. An easy rule of thumb for Kerdi-Coll is that it's used to "stick orange to orange".
That said, I think it performed very well in this torture test.
I wondered about that. He does a nice explanation of how the product is intended to be used and then uses it is a different way. I expected that the box that he had built with standard Kerdi methods was going to be compared with a box that used Kerdi-Coll for sticking the Kerdi material together.
At 9:26 of your 1st part I notice the kerdi band sticking up around the same place where moisture was found. I think that was moisture from the start that never got to dry. YOUR THE MAN...KEEP THEM COMING..
Thanks for all your videos and tests. Sorry for my poor english (i m french). In Europe we only use kerdi coll-L as mortar at junctions. Schluter Europe says that you have to set the kerdi membrane with a classic mortar and only use the kerdi coll-L to set kerdi keba; kerdi Kereck; kerdi KM; etc at junctions . I didn't read anywere (in Europe) that the kerdi Coll L can be use as you do in this video. :) An other idea to get bests results could be to waterproffing as the same way that we set tiles on a roof ...i explain : first you can waterproffing the flange; above this you waterproof the ground (the kerdi have to go up a few inches on the wall); and to finish above this you set the kerdi membrane on the wall.
This way the water flows on the wall then on the floor and the on the flange
with a lower risk of going under the membrane at junctions...like tiles on a roof. Thanks again for your time and videos :)
In Portugal i was told by Schluter that we COULD use Coll-L for the membranes, but that it would be stupid because we'd waste a ton of Coll-L and the mortar is a lot cheaper, was advised to use a "C2 TE" quickset for the membranes but make sure to use Coll-L for the joints
@@liquidsnake6879 right 😁
Please do a Redgard and Aquadefense comparison in one shot! They are very similar products but it would be nice to know if one has any benefits over the other! Might as well toss in Hydroban in the mix! Love your work, keep it up! Need more folks with your enthusiasm and curiosity in the northeast!
i was just about to ask that exact question lol
As I recall, on this test, you used regular thinset to adhere the Kerdi-band and corners, then painted the Kerdi-coll over the entire surface. I'm wondering if it would have made a difference if you had followed the "European" Kerdi instructions and used Kerdi-coll to adhere the band and corners first, thus providing a sealing layer under the band.
That was definitely the best kerdi waterproof yet but I'm with you it should never get water under it because it is supposed to be 100% waterproof and in a year time how far could that water seep. I know everyone says it's not designed to hold water in this type of flood test but it should be because I've never seen a shower dry out that was leaking any water it just gets worse over time. Isaac keep up the good work you are doing a great job helping ppl learn
I still think the best is a one piece kerdi pan folded up walls 4-6" and ardex 8+9 on corners and drain connection.
Anything that gets rid of the damn seams is a good thing. Can’t see why the pool industry can’t be a model for us…. Underwater 24/7. No leaks
Coll is supposed to used as a glue between Kerdi materials. It's not like 8+9 according to Schluter.
Here Schluter Regional manager's quote:
"They are suitable for adhering and sealing overlaps of Schlüter®-KERDI membranes. In addition, they can be used to tightly seal the edges of the seaming tape Schlüter®-KERDI-KEBA on Schlüter®-KERDI" this is straight from the website, he is notorious for using products incorrectly"
@@TileCoach I don't have access to data sheet, so I can't check that statement. If you are right, then Schluter Rep was wrong?
Great video!
Water always wins. We can only slow down its destructive tendencies. This is a good product when used as intended and with proper slope. There is no product on the market intended for interior use that can hold water for a day let alone several days. Not even swimming pool cement or plaster is 100% water tight. It has a small amount of seepage. Maybe we should test pool water proofing products against interior water proofing products to see which one is better? 🤔
Interior products are meant to be used in conjunction with a slope, drain, and adequate air ventilation to let dry before any water can penetrate. There are too many seams in this type of installation. These are all points where these products can fail. A PVC liner is what you want. It create a true SEALED PAN with no joints, seams, or points of entry for water to invade.
Your videos are always very helpful and informative. Look forward to the next one.
Isaac: sorry for the shaky video
Sal Diblasi: Hold my trowel
Do you ever use the kerdi-coll in place of the thinset? As in, apply the sheet membrane with the liquid membrane?
Cool test 👍🏼 the Kerdi fabric is developed to dry out between uses, there is a thicker Kerdi band that is for use in continual use steam showers...try a 14 day flood test with that instead I bet it’ll hold up better bud.I still 8+9 all my pans and ceilings when I do steam shower installs👍🏼
Issac, you need to get a moisture meter. Ambiguous dark stains could result from multiple causes. Engineers use instrumentation that is more sensitive and precise than their own senses. You are moving into an engineering mode. Do what the pros do.
Just look again after a few days. If the stains are gone, it was water. If the stains are lighter colored than before, it was a combo of water and other things.
Kerdi-Coll is liquid (resins suspended in alkaline water). So wouldn't some of the water separate from the particles while is drying/curing and sip wherever it can? But once it cures it creates membrane that won't be penetrable. If you did the same test and do water test with water with red food coloring you would see that those spots would not be red.
Kerdi coll is supposed to go under the kerdi instead of using thinset. I just paint the kerdi with hydroban or aquadefense. I'm not painting over the newly installed mortar bed, I'm painting over the kerdi membrane so I don't have to wait 3 days for the mortar bed to cure....You can even use regular redgard over it. Liquid membranes will stick to kerdi just as good as the ardex stuff
great video, really suprised to see that moisture ingress, from the location it had appeared to have soaked under the kurdi band, my thought was the kerdi coll was used as a topical sealant so the thickness of the sealant would be 0.25mm or however thick the kerdi coll was applied, if the kerdi coll was used only under the kerdi band the thickness would almost increase to the depth of the band 62mm so there would be a massive difference in thickness for water to penetrate, thow this depends on how effectively the kerdi coll seals two sheets of kerdi
Adrex 155 rapid over the top of your sheets,
Or any of the liquid waterproof membranes we have in Aus, so much simpler. And over the top is only gonna make it more durable, but will reduce it’s elasticity.
I always use ASA Damp proof . Maxisila Silicone and as a primer Weldcrete .
Patience and technique seemed to have served me well ( touch wood ) .
14 days submerged...I think that’s pretty good.
Thanks for the videos.
Better than I thought. Great product and thanks for posting.
I would use a GE protimeter to measure moisture levels before and after. My guess is that the before would measure about 25% WME and the after should be about the same.
Water vapor can get through regular Kerdi membrane i think, there's another one called Kerdi "DS" that's vapor proof as well
Also, would love to see same test done with RedGard and AquaDefense.
Love the videos. My question is, wouldn't the requirements of a tiled pool be different than a tiled shower, meaning anything beyond a 24 hour flood
test is also beyond the scope of what any of these products are really designed for?
Ya but even with slopes, water can pool in an area of a pan for more than 24 hrs if a shower is used daily.
Looks like a perfect sealing to me! (After 14 days still standing water)
I have some kerdi coll-l from eBay and I think I will use it over the kerdi niches and the kerdi pan seams over band. Thanks for all the information, merry Christmas! Still a good system, but nice to know all the information as a DIY person.
14 day constantly under water, i dont think day to day usage would be an issue, at least not based on this test...
Excellent empirical testing.
Nice video! I have never used that product but have done many many Kirdi Shower installs and have nothing but great results with the entire system. Im not sure but isnt the kerdi coll supposed to be used in place of the thinset and then embed the membrane into it? DO you prefer the mud bed over the kerdi trays? Ive noticed several of your videos and they were all mud bases is why i ask. Ive replaced several failed schluter showers and in all but 1 of them it was clear to see the membrane was never properly embedded into the thinset. The other one was due to a bench that was installed as an afterthought that sloped in towards the wall and had 3/8" lag bolts drilled right thru the membrane believe it or not water found its way in those holes within 2 months. My thinset of choice is actually just Mapei Kerabond at less than $15.00 per bag its performed excellent and when called for just add the latex admix over plywood ect. I am curious if those dark spots were actually due to water penetrating or some other reason. Anyways i do appreciate your videos and youve gained a subscriber
As far as I am concerned Kerdi Coll needs to be applied to under the KEBA and ontop of the Kerdi KEBA to get a tight seal.
THIS IS NOT A WATERPROOFING MEMBRANE, it is supposed to be used as material to bed Kerdi Band into. Look at the data sheet
Exactly. Use the damn foil
I wanted to see it drain from the top lol
Great video
have you done a similar test with Ardex 8+9? Would be v interesting to see an apples to apples comparison. Great test.
I reckon the ardex is probably more reliable!
It's not vapor it's condensation, condensation will always form on the coolest surface in the room
Issac you scaring me regarding this Kerdi membrane and banding. I am about to install a 72 inch linear drain along with the Schluter pre-sloped LTS pan, banding ect... Should I use ardex 8+9 overtop to insure I never run into issues. I have spent a lot of money on this system and the tile that I'm about to lay. I really do not want to ever have issues with water leaking threw the banding into substrate. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Love your videos but man your scaring me as I have a new walk in shower I installed 2 years ago all with Kerdi. Keep up the great work! Looking forward to your videos in the future. Thank you for all your time, tips and help.
put it together with 8+9 in the place of the thin set
Could the moisture actually be from the kerdi-coll when installed and it seeped under?
That was my thought. Perhaps if he gave the kerdi-coll a week to fully Cure or dry out and then conducted the flood test.
That was my guess too.
Looking at the wood,that was under everything,you had mentioned it was 'plywood'.From the video ,it "sure" looks like luan!!! Because of luan's composition,'at least' up here in Canada...it is NOT a suitable substrate by any means.Like OSB,or particle board,they are never associated with tile work.
Would love to see one of these tests on a KBRS or Tile Redi pan. Since all of these systems seem to at some point have an issue
I so would like to do some DYI project but after watching what could go wrong, and not been able to afford a tradie I will just stick to my 70s bathroom that came with the house.
14day submerge, i would say that it is superb
Why not use pressure treated green plywood on wet showers? At least on the floor.
You ever use the mapei water proofing product? If so, what do you think of it?
I need to do a master bath remodel, including a shower and floor. I would love a video on how to find a good tile installer.
HomerS737 you don’t need an installer. You need a Tile Mechanic. I know it sounds silly, but I’m a certified auto mechanic, but I consider myself a parts installer. When you find an installer that refers to themselves as a flooring mechanic, then you have found your “installer”. I do consider myself a flooring mechanic. I don’t know about Kerdi or other brands or trust them. I’m used to the mid school style shower installs with a vinyl pan liner. Best one is someone who uses copper for a pan. That’s old school.
Nicely done
Why not give it two or three top coats of the two part mix. That would make it thicker and stronger to resist seepage.
Protect your lungs!
Hey Isaac, big fan of what you're doing, I've been in the trades up here in Canada going on 20 yrs now. I'm just wondering if there's any reason you don't use wedi, it's all I've been using for around 5 yrs now, no complaints, failures or problems this far. The cost is a bit high but once you factor in the ease of installation it pretty much balances out and from my view it is a great waterproof product in one easy step. Just wondering your view?
Isaac, as an European user of Kerdi, I have to say that you are using Kerdi coll-L in a wrong way. It's not a vapor/water barrier it-self, but it is made to be used instead of thin-set to do the 2" overlaps.
Hey Isaac, do you think you’d be able to do a video with a break down of different methods on how to water proof/prep a standard 15sf shower pan shower with 3 foot side walls and 5 foot back wall average 8 feet high. Basically wondering what is the most cost affective yet most safest method to prep a shower before tiling. Personally here in SoCal. We float all of our walls and Hot mop shower pan and dry pack shower pan with deck mud. But yea idk if you’ve been asked this before so I was curious. THANKS!!!
I think your test are a bit benign because you use room temperature water and do not simulate people walking on the pan.
Isaac, you say in this video that you will use the kerdi-coll in your applications from now on. But in the previous video, you said it was only available in Europe (at least as of July 2019). Has that changed? How are you obtaining the product in the U.S.?
I just used the USG shower system for the first time and I really like it over Kerdi and it can be used with modified thinset. Have you done any tests on the USG system yet?
The USG pan I used seemed better after install than the Kerdi pan installed on a previous shower tile job. The sound of the water striking the tiled USG pan was much more quiet and gave the impression of solidness
Hi there. In the middle of a customer's project. Kerdi Coll is available from a UK seller, but 2-3 weeks shipping. Can't really hold the project up that long. Have you found a good USA sourced product that you'd recommend that matches Kerdi Coll?
Yes, Ardex 8+9 is available here.
Try Kemper or ParaPro as an underlayment
Why are you not using all set under the Kerdi fabric? You should be
Maybe the red guard is still better. I will check out the other video
could that be stained from the wet kerdi coll before it cured and not water?
That's what I thought, the moisture(water) was trapped under the Kerdi coll, and accumulated at the Kerdi band seal
Why not just use a copper pan? Or if that is too expensive for your job just use a vinyl shower pan liner?
There are two general approaches to waterproofing a shower pan: Water proof pans (PVC, lead, copper, etc.) with weep holes. And water proofing the top of the shower pan layer that is just below the layer the tile is stuck to. There are advantages and disadvantages to both ideas. At least one tile installer in the comments combines both approaches. I would think that would come to about as reliably water proof shower as it is possible to make.
So correct me if I’m wrong you mean to say is that there is no waterproof product thatt were sustained water for more than 14 days
I put schluter in once a week (the way they taught in schluter school)these videos are scary !
Gonna have to get some 8+9 I guess
Take a look at prosoco products. They are meant to be used on the exterior of the home but think it would do well in such a test
Donald Nelson I just used prosoco to install some windows. Using it made me wonder how I could use it in a shower application. Great product.
Can we bond banding strips etc. with Ardex 8+9 and forgo thinset all together for the Kerdi products? Would that eleminate the need to completely cover the kerdi products with 8+9 if the failure point is the thinset. Has anyone just taken Kerdi membrane and tied it up like a bag and filled it with water?
What if you used the kerdi call instead of the unmodified thinset to adhere the kerdi band?
steve beuchert won’t work different chemical reaction.
@@RaulTorresMorfin so it is for topical application only?
Should only be stuck down with Kerdi Coll and not thinset. That's the only way the system is waterproof. This is directly from Schluter.
@@timmargereson332 thats what i thought, seemed like a waste of time to just use it as a roll on membrane.
@@hereticxxx9317 exactly ! Kerdi-Coll is used instead of thinset to adhere the band to Kerdi membrane or Kerdi board. It goes under the band not on top.
Hey Isaac, I have a test idea for you. Basically the same thing is what you're doing. But let it cure for 28 days before you do a water test
what? nobody waits 28 days to use a shower. not realistic
@@GJLCreativeStudios Yeah. I know. But that's the ssc supposed cure time for Portland cement.
Travis k it’s not a portland cement.
@@northstarmn Yeah whatever. That's why 9 people gave the thumbs up for the suggestion. So what is the base product in thinset? What is the dark grey powder used in the kerdi coil? The only inadequate comment here is yours.
Travis k dude don’t get offend just educate yourself on the products. It’s all good, tile on man!
So do you like kerdi coll or Ardex 8+9. And I wonder Ardex 8+9 Will bond to ABS plastic linear drain, the compotite linear drain plastic abs.
What brand of thinset are you using.
Edit. So I just talked to another local (Sacramento area) installer. He had a schluter shirt on. I asked him if he likes or uses kerdi. I am seriously reluctant to repeat this. He said that "schluter is saying that you aren't using schluter thinset." I know, you don't have to use schluter thinset. So I guess the next one needs to be schluter thinset.
Btw. I will build a mock up and bring it to you to water test and tear apart. I don't have the video editing skills, time or equipment.
I may have missed it, but have you put one together with 8+9 yet in the place of thin set?
50 years ago, my old man used to float his own concrete and put a shower up by 2 P.M. and they lasted way longer than today's work. They used lead pans back then, but later switched to Vinyl. Why are all these people using all these worthless fancy named systems?
LOL because it's WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY, easier and takes WAY, WAY, WAY less talent and knowledge. Isaac can float pretty damn well, too.
Your right
Peter
50 years ago you wouldn't take a half hour shower. now you have rain shower head steam baths mixed with existential dread/
Please do a LIP waterproff test...
My tile supplier had a cardboard box that has been in the store for a few years full of water. It’s been tanked with the 8+9 system.
I know it’s the same one because I used a uv marker to write on it when the rep made it up. It’s the best system in my opinion.
@isaacostrom what are your thoughts on Mapelastic 315?
He should try Flex Seal.
Issac. Have you done a test like this with 8+9 instead of Kerdi Coll?
So what thinnest do you use over ardor 8+9? Does it matter?
did you do a test with the ardex8 +9?
Have you used tile-redi pans?
can you please try custom building products megalite. please
How u know. U never tried. Please try it
Thats what i see used by guys that do amazing work. Kerdi is used by pricks and it fails.
@@smokingcheeba420 ???????????????????
Isac, have you tried Ardex 8+9 over Kerdi?
@@TileCoach thank you very much, and I like your videos. You've become somewhat of a celebrity. Lol
You are trying to build swimming pool instead of shower base.....all the test you did.just use epoxy grout on tile floor
Spoiler Alert.
Kerdi fails again.
Can you just use roofing rubber and that black gooey stuff in the tubes for roofs to seal a shower? It seals roofs?ah but will thin set stick? Hmmm how about that five gallon bucket of liquid rubber that dries? Ah same thing will the thin set stick to it..... hmmmmm
Dude you sold out for ceramic tile videos????? Doesnt take much these days...