The Dark Side of Living with Narcissists
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- Опубликовано: 14 окт 2024
- In this video, I explore what makes narcissism so difficult in their own lives, their partners lives, and their children's lives. This video will examine narcissism from 3 aspects (listed below) and then discuss the technique I use when working with individuals (and/or their partners) along the narcissistic spectrum.
The 3 aspects include:
1. Impaired insight
2. Developing a reinforcing interpersonal circle
3. Reluctance to engage in adaptive and healthy new behaviors.
Treatment approach includes speaking narcissism.
Daniel J. Fox, Ph.D., is a licensed psychologist in Texas, international speaker, and award winning author. He has been specializing in the treatment and assessment of individuals with personality disorders for over 15 years in the state and federal prison system, universities, and in private practice. His specialty areas include personality disorders, ethics, burnout prevention, and emotional intelligence.
He has published several articles in these areas and is the author of:
The Clinician’s Guide to Diagnosis and Treatment of Personality Disorders: goo.gl/ZAVe9v
Antisocial, Borderline, Narcissistic and Histrionic Workbook: Treatment Strategies for Cluster B Personality Disorders (IPBA Benjamin Franklin Gold Award Winner): goo.gl/BLRkFy
Narcissistic Personality Disorder Toolbox: 55 Practical Treatment Techniques for Clients, Their Parents & Their Children: www.amazon.com...
The Borderline Personality Disorder Workbook: An Integrative Program to Understand and Manage Your BPD -COMING SOON-
Dr. Fox has been teaching and supervising students for over 15 years at various universities across the United States, some of which include West Virginia University, Texas A&M University, University of Houston, Sam Houston State University, and Florida State University. He is currently a staff psychologist in the federal prison system, Adjunct Assistant Professor at University of Houston, as well as maintaining a private practice that specializes in the assessment and treatment of individuals with complex psychopathology and personality disorders.
Dr. Fox has given numerous workshops and seminars on ethics and personality disorders, personality disorders and crime, treatment solutions for treating clients along the antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic personality spectrum, emotional intelligence, managing mental health within the prison system, and others. Dr. Fox maintains a website of various treatment interventions focused on working with and attenuating the symptomatology related to individuals along the antisocial, borderline, narcissistic, and histrionic personality spectrum (www.drdfox.com).
RUclips: / drdanielfox
Dr. Fox’s website: goo.gl/1X1vhR
Facebook: / appliedpsychservices
Twitter: / drdanieljfox1
LinkedIn: / drdfox
Instagram: / drdfox
Thank you for your attention and I hope you enjoy my videos and find them helpful. I always welcome topic suggestions and comments.
Citation: Kohut, H. (1977). The Restoration of the Self. International Universities Press, New York. ISBN 0-8236-5810-4.
Covert narcissist ex only used therapy to gain info to continue manipulations.He had his therapist giving him books on my issues and diagnosing me when I wasn't even there.When I told him What I knew he was doing he bought books only to know what I saw...he had no intentions of changing only gaining upper hand.I still can't wrap my brain around it.It's chilling.
Oh so true, gotta stay on alert constantly because it's always just new data they learn to manipulate you more. That's all they know. They will watch ppl go crazy over a dessert and get that recipe just to copy it to get that same reaction, feeding into more praise for them. When they literally hate cooking. Any 1 thing is hard to tract because the ever changing skin on the snake revolves around collecting all things where they get constant validation. Vs someone getting the receipt because they want to make it because it's good. This is to me the most dynamic and hard to specify behavior to articulate and separate, one from another
With my narcissistic wound - I created it myself- and shattered my soul. It was black. Empty. Hatred. Restlessness. Panic attacks. Suicidal ideation. Worked on myself by myself and with a therapist and life coach along with multiple rehabs. It broke me down and humbled me. I ended up institutionalized 4 months ago and they changed my medicine. AGAIN. I’m so lucky that I got through those 10 years of straight up AGONY. I own my own hair salon and have “it all going for me”. Nobody knew about my silent pain. It’s like I ripped opened a wound and tried to sow it myself ! Took a decade for me to be the person I am today and I still struggle daily but I’m much better. Functioning.
I Applaud your will to change and the courage to own it( acknowledge it) , therefore I wish you Peace and Power to stay Resilient/ Determined to Stay Positive, Be Respectful and Gain your Morality... Live your life , without hurting others.
The people around you likely still suffer your disorder and choices just maybe a little less than before.
Thanks for sharing that. It's awesome that you made the choice to change. Did you come to the realization that you were narcissistic? Is that what made you wanna change?
Go on you !!
Much respect to you..
I am the adult daughter of malignant narcissist father and borderline/covert narcissist mother. I have extensively educated myself by going to therapy/psychologists, and reading, binge watching RUclips videos, all pertaining to cluster B disorders. I agree with some of the comments below. There was not a chance in hell I would ever get through to my narcopath father. His defense mechanisms were iron clad, and he truly never empathized with anyone on a meaningful level. However since narcissism is on a spectrum, my mother who is less affected, however still pathologically affected was able to have a clarity breakthrough after suffering a heavy narcissistic injury. The way you described it in the video was perfect. She basically has been rebuilt after a significant narcissistic injury. It has taken many years though and a tremendous amount of patience on my part. There has to be a little bit of a soul, or a willingness to want to take the red pill. So I can understand why some people feel it’s a lost cause. However if there is a tiny bit of something there, it can be rebuilt. I think the most important factor relating to the semi success I’ve had with my mother... is my motive. I am not interested in hurting her, exposing her, retaliating, or having her even recognize the weight of her pathology I just wanted to help her become a human being if you will, before she dies. Granted there was something to work with deep within her. Unlike my father who was just a dangerous predator. I view my mother a lot like Anakin Skywalker, who became Darth Vader who then became Anakin Skywalker again. She’s still quite borderline/narcissistic, however she’s continually open to the premise that she could be completely wrong and will always feel justified within herself to do anything. So she holds back and chooses to not rely on her emotions and perceptions, to not act on any of those feelings, and chooses to treat each person and interaction with a kindness. Not for any other reason except that is how she chooses to respond. She has marveled at how much this has changes her life for the better. No false hope is intende to anyone.
Olli
I have had experience with hard hearted Narcissists. Always smirking and laughing at how they fooled you. Antisocial people. Not fun. They like to see you confused and in pain. Not fun.
My dad maybe was a Narcissist but he did show a lot of emotion at times. My mum was a giver not a taker. I don’t know how she got on but she had strong opinions of her own before she found out dad was cheating on her - like she told me she had never taken off her wedding rings ever before the marriage breakdown.
My mother is a narcissita!! She is evil
I resent you thinking yiure the only good codependent who wanted to just help lol we all just wanted to help dude
My husband is very pronounced NPD, and finally I am able to talk about it with him. He changed a lot over years, he is now able to say sorry (it was not part of his vocabulary couple of years back). I still need to remember that whatever he says or makes to someone, he should try to imagine himself receiving this from that person and see how he would feel (try to imagine yourself in the shoes of the other person). This was extremely hard at the beginning, but the empathy (I just recently learned he was misunderstanding this word with sympathy ;) ) is slowly building up. He used to hurt me a lot at the beginning, not realizing at all his impact. He still hurts people around, especially family, as in that environment he feels so safe and open that he mostly does not think of the impact. This is my new mission in the transformation. I already got his commitment to change. He starts to realize these incidents, I need to tell him immediately when something inappropriate happens so he can self-analyze the situation again. The thing is, that he needs to convince himself he was wrong and that he came up with the solution alone, so he needs time to digest and the next day he can say, I am sorry. Step by step. I believe they can't recover 100%, but they definitely can improve a lot and use the negative sides of narcissism to their advantage, when they are self-aware. Can you imagine how happy life you could live if you believed your life depended only on you and your own decisions and that you are capable of everything? This self drive and belief often brings you to make it really happen.
Eri B I read an article once about a study on narcissism and empathy. I read that when narcissist re-frame their perspective by putting themselves in the shoes of others, their empathetic brain response lights up when they put themselves in other peoples place. the study showed that narcissist can be train to experience empathy. The study sdhowed that normal people do that intuitively while narcissist don't, it was something they had to be trained to do. And it's not cognitive empathy either, it's actual empathy that got lit up during the re-framing task in the study.
Congrats to you
I have never Heard of a narcissist being cured and as for couples therapy they have only got worse. The reason being they use psychological techniques for their own manipulations. My advice is to get the children into separate therapy which will make the narcissist behave better through fear of exposure. Getting a narc to agree to this is difficult because they will be losing power and control.
They suck. I wish they were all in jail. They do such crimes yet the innocent ones are punished. How can we as a society help narcissists not be Narcissistic???
The worst relationship for you to be in, is the one you can't let go of.
💙RUclipsr That Helps People Overcome Toxic Relationships
That is so powerful..I'm keeping this to remind myself~ Thankyou
I did marriage and family therapy with my narcissist ex-husband for 8 years and during that whole time I believed that everything was my fault. It wasn't until 14 years into the marriage and we were living in another state and I had to call 911 and CPS on him that the social worker used the word Narcissist with me and emotional abuse to me and showed me the abuse wheel. I felt so angry and betrayed by my therapist and psychiatrist but that is the danger of sharing the same professionals with your spouse. He was so good at covert abuse that I had no idea I was being abused. Growing up my father called me names, so this man wasn't directly calling me names, only implying that nothing I did was good enough, so I wasn't realizing that I was being abused even though at that time I became so depressed I required hospitalization twice and was "punished" for that too.
Life After Narc omg I totally experienced this!!! 💯🤯😔
I know how that feel. Hope your doing better
My story is much the same, they can be so cunning..and my big question is, WHERE WERE OUR PPL ?? You know, the 15 other ppl who watched this going on and never left a hint of a clue to help us wake up. I know we're responsible for ourselves, but this is baffling to me. And some of them fully understood what was going on while clueless me was plugging along trying to put out fires created by the narcissist and like you I didn't even know it was going on. Then at Thanksgiving I hear.".Yeah, we knew , and just didn't want to say anything" !! I'm like..well your talking about it now just fine..so why not talk about it then?? Maybe bring it up yrs ago before he broke my nose, hurt my kids..It's literally mine bending , I'm just so greatful I am finally awake. I will always be an advocate for the person who has no voice.
Mine called me Papoolic and never my name for 16 years. She said my name just before I left. They love covert abuse. They love it. To bring another down makes them happy. Never good enough. Gaslighting crap all day everyday. They can do anything. Never any accountability for their actions. I will go for a walk. I listen to tons of You Tubes to understand. They lie. They are never sharing the whole story.
I really love how humble you are, you put citations in the video description because you know you don't know everything! Thank you for that! Also I'm super excited for this workbook of yours to come out. 😁
Thanks, I think it's important to know we don't have to know everything and we all learn from each other.
It is! I'm highly critical of just about everyone but especially professors. I have one this semester who brings in guest speakers because while she can read research she is not actively working say at a survivor advocate 24/7 hotline. She's kind of my favorite person!
I'm sure he knows much more than you. Dont pretend to be intelligent. Everyone knows how insane & manipulative a Narcissist is. Take a good look in the mirror...cause you will never change, no matter what happens. Nothing but bs. You ain't no victim...wolf in sheep's clothing. Favorite person is a Bpd trait, narcissists loyalty change with supply...you cant teach a Narcissist empathy...just stop
Ahh Dr. Fox, now when you say it is hard to bring a narcissist into more healthy adaptive behaviours I would add that it's next to impossible. Not without a highly effective and heroic mental health professional by your side. I just got out or should I say I was "discarded" by my beloved narcissist ex girlfriend a little over two years ago. I was with my ex for about 4 years and right off I noticed something about her personality that I found very familiar and attractive in a odd but powerful way. Of course it was great at first but then went south quickly and drastically suddenly I found myself in uncomfortable situations and was very dissatisfied with the relationship yet I could even bring myself to the thought of ending it willingly. Of course I don't have to illustrate the common stages of a narssistic relationship to you but I had never experienced this in a previous romantic relationship but it still felt so damn familiar to me. So I could not help but to investigate what the hell was going on and I began to learn about projection and triangulation and gaslighting which ultimately brought me to personality disorders. I have been fascinated with them and the whole realm of psychology since then. Anyway, I have become convinced that she has at least narcissistic personality traits which were triggered and exasterbated by my own borderline personality traits. I am familiar with probably all nine of the criteria and I know it also runs in one side of my family. Upon discovering this I began what was to be a unhealthy and ultimately doomed attempt at "fixing" us. I decided to go the reconstruction route since I could not break her narcissistic armor and also she had a very loyal and well established circle that almost instinctively went on the attack for her. I was not educated enough to effectively use narcissistic language and because of my own borderline disorder I could not make any progress. What's more I was incurring too much narssistic abuse and before I could react I was replaced and out of the picture. No we will stay friends no further contact. It has been the most painful,enlightening and empowering experinces of my life. I figured out I was the perfect codependent because of my father's narcissistic personality that all my many maladaptive behaviours have affected my life in horrible ways. However thanks to largely you I have decided to begin challenging those maladaptive behaviours and this core content that I can actually see and I have no doubt can be corrected with a lot of patience and dedication. So to wrap it up yes narcissistic personality disorder can be reduced if you very skillfully implement the strategy that you mentioned you prefer but I believe that most partners of a person along within the narcissistic spectrum will ultimately not be able to make a difference unless you have someone like yourself to some how validate you or they will simply become exhausted and either willingly leave the relationship or what is most often the case be blindsided and discarded or as I like to say be mercifully set free.
Hi Dr. Fox, I am a narcissist/have narcissistic traits, and I have had a therapist inflict a narcissistic wound on me. My current therapist describes it as 'retrautmatising' and like you said here it caused me significant psychological distress, and it has been a significant problem for me until this day. I was until that point making *significant* progress in treating my narcissism, and had opened up immensely to my therapist, and become incredibly vulnerable. It was wonderful, a great space for me to feel safe and was allowing me to start undergoing the process of change that I was so desperate to achieve. I had worked really hard to get that vulnerability with him.
But when that wound was inflicted the result was horrible and threw me right back almost to where I began, after letting go of so many resentments and working so hard to treat my narcissism I feel like I right back to where I began. It effectively sabotaged the vulnerability I had worked so hard to achieve. It has been 18 months since then, and I will keeping working on my narcissism, as I have done, but I wanted to share with you this anecdote.
I think that there may in fact be a place for wounding of narcissists, as a part of treatment. But it depends on the individual, in my case I am told I was likely psychotic when he tried to re-wound me (so not a good time to be playing mind games). I think that if an individual refuses to make themselves vulnerable, but is very keen on the therapeutic process, then there may be a place for it. I also think that there are 'degrees' of wounding, in my case it was very severe, deliberately, like a betrayal, and really messed me up and I was paranoid for the next six months. Anyway I really like your videos Dr. Fox, keep up the good work!!
Wow, yes..this happened to me a few months ago, I'm not a narcissist but I've been very abused by 3 family members, and after my mother died my therapist inflicted a nasty one . I am not as of yet able to open up to her. I'm not sure I can recover and open up to her again. It was mean, hard to trust ppl in this world
As someone who's been diagnosed with a mixed personality disorder but having demonstrated toxic and narcissistic traits and having an upbringing that you would expect for narcissistic individuals, I want to say that in my experience of recovering from this that I think my narcissistic behaviours sre what have come first and then the belief to justify them, for example, I find that I get a lot of attention and praise from talking as if I'm really smart and taking on unrealistic goals just through encountering a lot of 'happy accidents' where maybe I have done something genuinely smart and worthy of appreciation but that doesn't reflect who I really am (I.e. to study lots of different highly technical and difficult subjects in the belief that I will get better and adapt myself as if nothing is determined by genetics)(because I'm unconsciously swimming towards and trying to secure this praise and attention that people are giving me, in a state of emotional starvation, believing that it must make me really smart, because I haven't known any other form of love) and then I'll form a belief to make sense of my behaviour and keep telling myself that that's what I'm doing and screw what other people think and then I'm not able to look after my basic needs and regulate my emotions and keep myself calm as a result of taking on too many unrealistic responsibilities, and THAT'S where the hostility and attempts to manipulate people come from, it's a place of desperation of not being taught or knowing any healthier ways to not only interact with others, but how to also view myself as a person and thus know what it means to take care of myself, so that I can be caring to others, based on what I can deduce, at least, from my experience.
I don't want to potentially spread information about people who are genuinely narcissistic but I don't think any narcissist secretly believes that they are all right and all knowing, I think they find themselves drawing that conclusion as a result of having bad behaviours to begin with and not having any better ways to cope and not knowing any different.
Thank you for sharing this. This is very much in line with how I understood a close friend who developed similar traits. While I don't know her full story, she had rarely gotten fair feedback growing up, but later started getting a lot of praise from people she cared about regarding things that she didn't actually think were true about herself. And she became absolutely terrified that people would discover that she was barely holding on inside, and not nearly as strong and confident as she presented herself to be. Because if they found out, then maybe everyone would forever stop loving her. Keeping the image alive became a sort of desperate struggle. As exhausting as it was, she had to control everything around her or she risked losing control of the story. And she became almost paranoid looking for signs that people had stopped believing her, and then brutally effective at removing or destroying people who she thought might not be convinced. She's fundamentally miserable and barely coping, if even that, but still terrified that anyone might find out. There is no good way for this story to end.
This has been a very long, hard journey. I approached my narc husband always with deep empathy. I tried to show him the love and care he missed out on early in his life. The rages always came when he felt criticized I was always walking on eggshells around him, and would never hurt his feelings or be disrespectful. But the lack of being seen, and the verbal and emotional abuse wore me down. Finally I came to the point that I had boundaries of what I could and couldn’t live with. If he wanted to be with me, this had to stop. I didn’t expect perfection but I needed steady progress. If he could do that I would love him forever and we would walk into the sunset together. He will always be a narc I know that, but change happened. It gets better as time goes on. My boundaries are now quite strong, fair, respectful and I believe empathetic and loving. The biggest surprise for me was good boundaries.
Insight is a powerful thing. Use it to learn about yourself and to build adaptive strategies to help yourself. Be well.
Hi dan, first of all I think you are fantastic. You are wonderful at what you do...I wish I had you as a therapist.. BUT I do want to say...I feel you are giving victims a false sense of hope that the narc in their life can change in this video. They don’t want to change. Even if you got through to them and helped them, they still lack empathy and the capacity to love. It’s an illusion with narcs....for romantic partners of narcs we think there will come a day the narc will see all that we have done and sacrificed. It never does. They are empty shells. Giving them strategies to cope less rage-fully/childlike tantrum is not what will heal them. Nothing will. That’s why it’s best to leave them....
I left. I stopped having suicidal ideation the day I left.
Sometimes there is a wound that can create an environment for insight, but, like you said, it doesn't come from an experience.. I'm not necessarily an extreme narcissist, but I had very unhealthy narcissistic traits, perhaps I'm a covert narcissist. I thought the problem was that people wouldn't accept me. However, it was ME who could not accept situations and people. I frame interactions them in terms of my discomfort. Years ago, I was taken off of a medication cold turkey and I had insomnia as a result. Since I tend to brood on all negative situations, I recalled far as my interactions, me being a jerk and self-centered. I didn't take into account the feelings of others. I wouldn't listen when people walked on eggshells around me and trying to give advice. I felt broken (?) after that and angrier. But with a good therapist and psychiatric nurse, I was able to see many things for what they were and think things through logically. I can't change the past, but I work on my behaviors and tend to be less self-destructive. Also getting into an supportive group situation were we were encouraged to be less judgmental really helped. I still have "all about me" tendencies, but I figure that no one is perfect. Thank you for your videos.
You have lots of insight, respect! wish you well
You like to manipulate others to get your way?
My mom was narcissistic and my ex of 10 years was narcissistic I never want to be around 1 again
57 years experience with them. I love not being around them
Impaired insight which harms others.
Grandiosity
Lack of frustration -change job frequently.
Narc inqury- they realize they made a mistake- result internal suicide attempt
Outward- rage towards other must remove others and get rid of them to get back to I am the center of the universe.
Posting this comment under partners account cos my phone is flat and I'm listening on his phone. We love your channel Daniel. I just want to say that I have lived experience of transformation through the narcissistic wound doing the twelve steps within the AA programme.
* Five years sober.
I hope this gives hope to anyone struggling with addiction who is reading this *
I had a strong enough sponsor who just held the magic key.
I wore out three other sponsors before this man presented.
We talked every day for years.
I recognise in retrospect that these daily debriefs worked similar to cognitive behavioural therapy.
He was strong enough to hold space for me.
I feel that with enough reiteration of the core values that are the cornerstone of the programme, eventually I cognitively rewired.
But there were many short circuits and busts along the way. It was hard. It hurt.
But no matter how many times I bolted, I was received when I returned, without judgement.
Three years and five busts in I became, in his words, teachable.
This is when the alchemy happened.
Ego deflation at depth.
I wonder if contemplation of The Big Book, written by the founder, Dr Bill, could be adapted to serve people who aren't suffering with addiction per se... The peer support model of AA meetings was also helpful in this big reset.. because you are witnessing another's redemption and watching them be vulnerable. There is no judgement.
This makes for a safe place to admit one's own character defects.
Maybe it's the positivity of this way of thinking, a Rock Bottom or in different terms, the ruin or the narcissistic wound, is viewed as a blessing.
Because that's where you begin a new life.
Long post but you've given us so much..
So I felt very much to give back here and share a lived experience of sustainable humility.
So very true, I think it must certainly could be a tool as ice seen it work on so many levels
I knew there was something wrong with me. I just didn't know until its too late. After learning so much about this I realized I need to stop the monster that is me. I'm just tired & have no money so yeah, tired of the witch hunt. Life was hell as a kid & as an adult too... to continue to live makes no sense for us.
Spiritually speaking, it is necessary for one to come to the light, which of course is TRUTH. And for a narcissist, the light is terribly blinding. Hence, they avoid it. When faced with truth, especially if it is a powerful wake-up call, you can read the body language. They're like a deer caught in headlights. For a split moment in time, they are faced with a choice, an opportunity to embrace it or to deny it. The incredulousness of the notion that they ARE NOT the PERFECT IMAGE that they have created all their life is so frightening to them that denial, as THEY see it, is the ONLY Choice. For the victim, seeing this replay over and over produces a mixture of hopelessness and anger. The narcissist's HOUSE OF CARDS has been challenged, and that's a great big NO NO in their world. GOD gives all of us a free will to choose right from wrong. All you can really do is pray for their eyes and heart to be opened. Til then, don't poke the bear.
Thank you for the comment and perspective. Be well.
YES i did that. his behavior got out of control and started to escalate. I wrote a letter warning i would kick him out if he continued to be controlling and angry (ragefull). (Never violent, just angry.) A month later he did exactly that!! I wrote a 2nd letter detailing what he did and what I wont tolerate and that He cant comeback until a counselor said he is working on his anger and control issues. Getting him to leave? I had to involve his family in that. He did not want to leave. He tried to blame everything onto me, i didnt care.
I had researched counselors to find one who knew about NPD. And I said it has be to this one or else. I stuck to this. Even when he said he couldnt and tried to manipulate me. I was like Nope. You dont have the money....ok then. Your going to kill yourself...ok then call 911. I had to be iron tough. Be prepared for a shit storm. This is when I truly felt gaslighted. He did all he could to not let me go after I kicked him out. It really showed me just how bad off he was. I felt like i was in this spider web every time i listened to his words.
We did 3 sessions with the counselor. And he signed up for a group called the Core (marriagerecoverycenter.com) and he flaked 3x and i said Im Done!!! Weeks later he signed up because I would not accept any less (he tried to get help by a pastor and i was like NOPE.) and he is on his 2nd month doing it. I was sold when the counselor firmly pointed out to him his mistakes and put him in his place....makes me smile just thinking about it.
If I hadn't kicked him out and caused the Narc wound, he would have never felt the pain he needed to see his problem. He still needs individual counseling. He needs to learn the inner resources as to be able to give emotional support and attach securely to me and kids. He still lacks empathy very much!! i see this as him just not trying to understand me or see my perspective. That hurts, it really does. So i distance myself even more.
So its up to him. Im not poking or prodding. I would probably say that he is a 3 or 4 on the spectrum seeing as to how difficult he has made this. I was hoping the entire time that he was a narcissist but not NPD....now I have my answer.
You must live in separate places and be very CLEAR what your rules/boundaries are if you interact.
he also knows the very second he disrespects or pushes my boundaries, he will have to leave PERIOD.
Id also advice to not interact with them UNTIl they are getting help consistently...even after kicking him out. Drop the kids off at a park and you stay away.
After kicking him out, He felt so much shame but took it out me covertly and I could have avoided that.
Victim- get yourself help. I was already in a group focusing on improving my self worth. NOW i really do know in my own core that I deserve to be treated so much better.
Let his words bounce off of you or block and look at it when necessary.
Dont have discussions til he is open and ready to learn. Even in this process he is still a giant pain in the ass and is difficult.
Get help, you will have to process your pain with someone and you sure cant do it with a cold and unsupportive person!!
I had to write a letter that was read out loud to his group (5 men) of exactly what he did and he broke down crying....twice....yet still has empathy problems....very troubling.
Im not sure what future holds but my daughter will have a better father. And I will grieve all the pain of loving someone who kept hurting me and putting me last.
Until I see for my own eyes and feel with my body that he means what he says (my body knows when his words arent genuine) and he earns my trust
HE WILL NOT COME BACK.
I can relate so much to this, thank you for posting ❤️
Stay strong, your doing it right.
Good
This is one of the best lectures on this I've heard! Ty Dr. Fox
You're very welcome. I'm glad the video was helpful. Be well.
I believe my wife is on the npd spectrum. I think she incurred a narcissistic wound when she acquired a DUI. It was such a blow to her ego she entered into therapy on her own, something she would not have done otherwise. While she is far from “cured” she has gotten a lot better from where she was at and she is open to more therapy. So I do believe incurring a narcissistic wound and breaking them down can be a successful way to address NPD. It’s very similar to breaking an addiction to Opiates. They are so in love with their egos it hard to get them to break it. They have to hit Rock bottom and go through withdrawals to get over it.
I have no expertise or formal education on the topic of dealing with narcissism, but I have had a fair bit of experience with it, via my parents and myself. I believe that the idea of creating a narcissistic wound and trying to rebuild a person, when they are broken from the wound, is an extremely bad idea
You can't hear another when you mouth is going, and you don't alter yourself when in a combative state. Everything you see and hear looks like an attack when in that state. The only changes you are likely to make, in that circumstance, will be to try to improve your defense and look for stronger weapons.
I think it is much easier to process uncomfortable information when in a secure non stress producing circumstance.
You can learn things from terrible events, but I think the learning happens well after the event. That has been my personal experience.
I have shattered my abusive vulnerable narcissist ex husband’s mask...he gets really mad, then starts to lose control and devalue me 😂
I think it is not fair they never take any accountability
I think I've got my Narc mom on the path to change or at least peeking at what change is.
Like you said, to change them I think it has a LOT to do with understanding how they think...
most people will *never* understand or experience what it feels like to think in 2 different ways (I believe anyway, I'm not a therapist so just throwing that out there, I have lived through so much mental/emotional abuse I'm surprised I can function the way I can,not saying I function. Well,I just scrape through and barely get through alot of the time, but I guess I feel like I know narcicissm so we'll from living with it )
But when I was 15-17 I felt, "the fog clear" and it was like one of those 5 gum commercials,
my self awareness was snapped wide open in an instant and my brain felt clear and like I'd just breathed in clean, cool air.
It was pretty amazing to feel really. The fog was surpressing in a way.
I am fairly sure I was otw to becoming a narc. I would do things to loved ones that I would be pissed off about if they even considered doing the same to me.
But I justified the hell out of everything that made me feel like I could be in the wrong and I would judge/put others down in my mind as if to think they'd kind of deserved what I did anyway so we're at least even?
Then id move on bc I could not sit and think on it for long at all or I was going to be faced with the truth, they didn't deserve it and I was being shitty.
About my mom, we don't talk much and she showed up at my apt after I went through a horrible break up & loss of my job of 5 yrs.
She didn't call, text or anything, to tell me she was coming...we haven't lived together in over 10 yrs.
but she was using me to get away from our hometown. When I was upset she said, "I didn't know I wasn't welcome" 😑
So I broke it down for her and did it each time she tried using that against me (same person who wouldn't give me her address previously, I wanted it to mail her holiday cards)
Her being around Brought up a LOT for me, and I did get reactive on a trip to visit our hometown, I tried my best for 3 hrs, but okay, moving on
I've been BLATANTLY honest with her and calling her on each and every tactic she used on me when we were arguing,
or when she cuts me down in that way where they didn't technically say anything wrong.
I stopped everything and explained to her why it is wrong and asked her to imagine the same scenario happening to her, *but with an issue that bothered her instead.*
If she thinks of herself in my position with the issue she used to hurt me with, then she won't connect to it bc she doesn't care about that issue personally.
It has to be a scenario that's similar, but addresses the same level of pain she had just caused me to feel.
I don't want to sound like a know it all, I really feel my story is unique and could help others, I just don't know how to go about it.
I feel like even the smallest things made me feel hope as a kid, so maybe a comment like this could help (but please don't take what I say and run with it, things are different for everyone and I'm not a doctor & don't want anyone to get hurt bc they tried something I've said)
Most of my family has narc tendencies, but my mom, aunt and grandmother are the main ones that affected me. I have C-PTSD and pretty sure I have BPD, It's caused so much pain in my relationships & social life. I isolate, but trying not to.
But, with my mom I know what hurts her, however I don't want to use it to hurt her, but instead I want it to help her.
like she's worried about not being with a man, and I took a C-PTSD video on relationship issues & started playing it to where she could hear and told her if she listens for a moment she could have a much easier time finding someone, and that I'm not wanting to hurt her at all,
That my goal is to show her reality and help pull her out of the fog in her mind.
I also have talked about feeling the same feelings she has, she didn't seem to believe me so I went into detail about how it felt and that got her to stop for a min and I think she saw me in sort of a different light, instead of looking down at me.
I compared the abuse we both endured from my aunt (her sister, she's....she's pretttttyy awful, like the worst of the worst say she's bad--jk, but she's pretty harmful though)
But I've seen my mom do little things differently, and she said she watched a couple therapy vids on her own 🧐🎉
however I'm not sure if it's bc she's seeing the light or if it's a manipulation tactic to get me to tell her she's a good person and my childhood wasn't bad. (2 other things that get to her).
Sorry for the long read I can't seem to type short messages
Thank you for giving us the knowledge we need to start to stop enabling these kinds of people. If we can learn how to show them how to use their “ability’s” with empathetic deficiencies in a positive way, we will be able to help the world. Namaste
Regarding your comment about breaking down to rebuild. From my experience personally and with others. When I was younger I was very Narcassistic, as a young apprectice in the trades there was the exect saying that you spoke of. You have to break them down to build them up.
This was in regaurd to a appretices EGO or Narcissism. I can't speak for all but I know many including myself, got a rude awakening to reality. Out in the field is rough, and I guess the best way I can describe the results was once you were broken in, you could only get better or go home. Developing your skills daily turned into positive reinforcment and I guess that coupled with being young and resiliant, rebuild not only skills but minds and the reality of our place in life for that moment. The job or field is a village, and it takes a village to build, not just buildings but people as well?
I guess that would be the only time I have seen it happen in a positive breakdown?
Never seen it with the 3 I know.
In the approach of shattering I believe it can be repaired by the original caregivers who inflicted the pain.
Combined with a good moral compass so a lot of work to be done but so worth the work Thank you Doctor.
And I think your point is critical and that you have to believe that you are worth the work. Thank you for your comment and I wish you well.
Dr. Fox, thank you. Your comments were very telling as you are the first “expert” to indicate that a Healthy Narcissist can be lived with. My husband separated from me 2 days before our 50th wedding anniversary and we had been going together since 14 and married at 20/21 so our relationship had been very long. I was devastated to find that happened in an age were we both looked young for our age. I think the love broke down about 25yrs into the marriage. He left me for another female who worked in our business which had been MY business until this breakup at 70/71. The details are too distressing to say here but I tried everything to keep the marriage together but it didn’t work. He just completely withdrew. I was listening to your earlier comments on Covert v. Overt Narcissism and I always thought it was “Covert” but now I think it was more “”0vert”? I am a great believer in marriage vows. He is not but is highly educated and has read the Bible and likes the Old Testament! only. Or says he does.
Insight is a powerful thing. Use it to learn about yourself and to build adaptive strategies to help yourself. Be well.
Attempting couples therapy with a partner with Narcissistic pathology is not something I would ever subject my self to again. Then again, I would never involve myself with someone, who exhibits NPD traits, for long enough to get to the point of seeking couples therapy.
Same here
As you treat a couple, what do you do when the abusive level is very malignant? Do you ever take the victim aside and tell him/her that their situation is dangerous, and will eat up years of their life with very little change, hope, and certainly no real love? While I am glad there is successful treatment for Personality Disorders, I shudder at the thought that you actually believe the "couple" has the problem. I am impressed with your treatment approach and dedication. I only hope you are not prolonging a victim's suffering while you play head games with a psychopath. If anything, the victim needs codependency therapy, but probably has done nothing wrong. Do you tell the NPD they are the abuser? Do you protect the victim? I'm wondering how this is handled ethically.
Wildrose12. Agreed x1000!
Agree. Chances this is beneficial for the most part only to the therapist. It's a sales video suggesting it has a solution to a problem but no facts to back up that claim.
He talked about narcissism on a spectrum, and I have 2 brothers and a SIL who have these traits. It is difficult dealing with family issues and there are a lot of lies and disinformation spread. I understand what he never said anything about keeping a dangerous relationship together and he was not discussing psychopaths. We humans are complex in our individuality, and possess the ability to hurt each other in ways I do not understand. I find the interenet to be a wonderful place to read and listen to narcissistic rants!
As bizarre as it may sound, many victims of narcissism WANT to stay married, and will jump through any hoops to stay that way. Therapists help people where they are
Mine did, he was on his first session and she asked him to let me talk as the question was meant for me, he jumped up like a wild man, ran out slamming her glass door thru the lobby and outside. She looked at me and said..get him out of your house, asap. He can not be helped. She was right..he finally went away with enough police reports and courts, then he kills his gf after me in a bad motorcycle accident, and lost one of his eyes..at least he had to pay some kind of a price..that poor girl
This was very informative, thank you!
Was going to couples counseling because my ex narc wanted me to get healthy. I asked if she thought there was anything she needed to work on and she literally said, "No. I've done a ton of therapy and worked through all my issues". When we had our first session, the therapist ask if either of us had been to counseling before, she said no!
They just do not see themselves. I had an experience in which I couldn't believe how much the person doesn't see.
You story reminded me of that.
@@lanaivanovic5272 I literally told her multiple times she was blind to herself. Hypocrisy is far sighted.
He is right about the spectrums of narcissism. I have outgrown the idea of being the center of the universe. I am very charming and don't struggle to find potential partners. Pairing up with a borderline nearly destroyed my life but it helped me take a look at my life and take control over my need for revenge and maintain myself at the benign spectrum. I had a break up no long ago due to lack of communication with a codependent. She was drawn to me because of my charm, confidence level, and assertiveness. However, like other codependents, she was with me because she was afraid to die alone. I never laid a hand on her, was loving, and ended things in a loving manner.
Siniestro your comment about dating a borderline nearly destroyed your life and interested me, that and what you said about needing revenge which is something im experiencing now. I too have dated a borderline Although I don't easily find willing partners so I felt like the borderline cunt I dated was my only hope for a sex life. She was a pain to deal with, made me feel like a doormat cause I was always so forgiving but once she finally cheated and decided to leave me. I felt like I needed to get revenge. I got my drivers licence mainly so I could drive to wherever she was and if she refused me sexually, then I was going to assault her and make her pay for making me look like a weakling. I have social anxiety disorder and she doesn't which I hated. its embarrassing dating a girl who is emotionally and socially stronger than you. I was fine with it cause things were going great until she got bored of me. that was an injustice I could not handle so I felt like she had to see my darker side. I found out where she worked so I plotted to stake her out, confront her and if she decided to insult me again, I was going to slap the fuck out of her. I was going to Get my revenge and hopefully not get into much legal trouble. I now hate women with borderline personality and want them all to suffer for the pain they cause others. when you get insulted, especially from a love interest, do you feel and extreme need to get revenge???
Love your content, thanks for this :)
Love your approach about focusing on the BENEFITS to the narcissist! THANKS!
Thanks 😊
I DID manage once to have a grandiose narcissist actually say, "I'm sorry, I was being selfish." I wasn't expecting to hear that! So here's what made him say that: He kept poking my back to have a final dance in an awesome club in Chicago. I was ignoring him. He got onto me about it, and I firmly stated: "I was consoling a 23 yr old after the death of his good friend." Narcissist said, "Everyone deals with death." I said firmly, "He is only 23 yrs old and has NOT experienced death like this before now, and I was CONSOLING him." Narcissist said, "I'm sorry. I was being selfish." To hear that narcissist apologie and admit to being selfish, that was unexpected, but I managed to get through to him! I was shocked! That came from a VERY skilled Grandiose Narcissist! Just WOW, I got through to him to the point of an apology and admitting that he was being selfish???? Just, WOW.
I guess by my tone of not allowing the selfishness, it got through that one (and only) time.
1. Mayby he wanted something from you.
2. Mayby he was a sensitive type. Such narcissist you can shame, ask him how he would feel if someone treated him like he does you. He may apologize once in a blue moon but still it doesn't change anything.
You do know that they lie easily
My father learned nothing and my spouse did not learn anything either from the stress of their covert narcissism. I learned suicidal ideation. This is the heartbreak. They will not listen. How can they be so heartless and arrogant? No apologies, no remorse, and you are the problem. I left. My dad is now passed. I now see things more clearly. Both were pathological liars and had double lives. Both never grew.
I think I started to go down a narcissistic path and considerable childhood teasing/bullying/rejection of the behavior helped me understand that this way of relating doesn’t work. I did end up with BPD traits though.
Healed?
yes, this is how I got answers out of my ex husband. after destroying my life, he actually wanted to be friends. Bizarre! But he really wanted it. So I said, 'Ok, if you (my ex) can answer some questions honestly, I will consider being friends with you." I got answers.
I hope it was helpful. Be well.
Sam Vaknin said the only way a Narcissist can modify their behavior is to experience Narcissistic mortification it is only then they will alter. He is a proclaimed and diagnosed several times NPD and has coined a lot of the terms we use today.
I did try speaking narcissist with my mom. But nothing was EVER good enough for her. She also has OCPD so it was a train wreck of a situation and eventually had to leave for my own health and sanity.
I also caused a wound with her trying to help. She will probably never forgive me. It’s a sad state, but somethings will not change. She is perfect and everyone else is clueless. I broke her down but instead of building back up it backlashed onto me and I am the cause to her problems now.
Yeahhh me & my husband accidentally & unknowingly broke his mom & step dad down thru repeated narcissistic injury, by making baby steps towards becoming stronger people who are able to say "no" as we aged, and that did NOT help us build our relationship with them back up in a healthy way. At all. Instead things just got worse & worse until we started googling the problem & ended up educating ourselves on narcissism
Hi Dr. Fox, I may have a story that you find interesting. I was very close to a narcissist you admitted an old terrible wound they suffered. They did in fact become very very sad, almost suicidal I believe. In order to heal they did this...they broke down their old "persona" and created an entirely new one or so they claimed. It was a lot like dissociation and they blamed this fact on their inability to remember things from their childhood (but there were sporadic memories of them being very very angry and sometimes violent to their siblings). What really seemed to be happening is that this old injury was ongoing, it never left them and I don't think it was the only one they were carrying around (they were sort of constantly re-traumatizing themselves as a kind of self-loathing). Though it can be difficult to aspect for anyone who has had a bad experience with these people to fully appreciate... but they do often suffer tremendously (its not an excuse however).
Suffer by making others suffer and not caring. How does this help. Why don't they seek help? They never do.
One more important comment. A true Narcissistic situation has only one remedy. Only one. Any other is a total delusional set up for abuse. If the Psychologist is to be ethical and not money driven, his or her job is to focus every bit of training on helping the victim put a covert plan to exit and protect themselves with a serious portion of the sessions given to how to handle relapses. But all the energy needs to be focused on the victims exit and life. I do not believe in a million years that true Narcissists recover. They are psychopaths that have been totally given over and so "taken over" that short of a deliverance from demons.....which they must want but will never happen......it isn't possible to cure a Narcissist. They will only play the therapist and you will get paid to participate. I have no psych background but rathe first hand experience a whole lot of peripheral upper education and the equivelant of a PHD in self education. I emphatic and even angry at the volume of ignorance purported on this subject and "disorder." It's not personal ....about you......it's just almost total BS that I experienced in the Psych field. Outside of a clear understanding of the spiritual battle and deceptions of Satanic influence and some experience and understanding of deliverance, soul ties, curses, and the nature of spiritual delusions........there isn't much help a victim will recieve from Psychology. That's just my strong motivated opinion based on the costly mistakes made by myself and probably thousands of other people.
It's my opinion people can learn a lot more with 15 minutes on their knees than an hour in a clinical psychologist office. That being said, I think there is a place for christian-based psychologists that have God at the center of their practice. And I'm talking about Jesus Christ true God and true man.
Yeah, since religion has fixed so much else in the world that must be true.
Haha - the equivalent of a PHD - learn how it's spelled first.
Hello Dr. Fox, you kind human being, and everyone else here in the comments field.
I think it can be problematic to talk about "relationships" when someone is abusive. I think it is more useful and nearer the truth to speak about "interactions". If there is violence, there is no real relationship. That's how I see it.
I heard someone say to an abusive man: "Do you want to be a part of a healthy or an unhealthy relationship?" hence putting the responsibility for the violence outside the man and making it look like it wasn't only he who had been violent. And sometimes that is the truth, but sometimes it's not. Sometimes only one person is abusive.
Language is important.
I do think that speaking so that a person with narcissistic traits can hear you is a good thing. But how can we do that without distancing ourselves from reality?
My daughter is Narc but the last visit I heard my grd daughter says it’s boring here my home I feel no respect from her she mirrors her mother well she lies she is just a newbie Narc so I see it n it’s my daughter all over again WOW what a eye opener for me!!!
Ann G. Ann, this is a much needed area of discussion. The narcissistic daughter or son is a taboo subject due to society blaming the parents for everything. Even when you do some research and find a blog, it’s infested with angry narc adult children trying to shut these poor suffering parents down. I feel your pain, stay strong.
Hey to all you misinformed idiots- guess who narcissistic pathology is created? By shitty parents. So to the asshole talking shit about his own daughter on the internet... take a look in the mirror and some responsibility.
That's sad realization. Can you copy with them? set healthy boundaries, etc?
I've seen Brigid's angry rant.
Not all children suffering trauma, neglect become narcissistic. Some say it depends on the level of abuse. I believe, apart from situation children are born with certain traits and also make a choice. My narcissistic mother was setting us children against each other in order to control us. My two elder siblings followed her and became egoists. One ('golden child') married a narcissist as well. I was this 'black sheep' fighting to survive. It was rather part of her game. She trained me as codependent, people pleaser. Still, I believe I have had at least minuscule choice: fight or obey. That's hard to say really. Trying top please her I was bound to fail. She was never satisfied. I was never good enough. Maybe, then fight was the only option.
Hell of a deal isn't it..
My husband was diagnosed with NPD. The only technique that worked eg he scared me driving aggressively and then yell at me if I asked him to slow down. So I said what do you want me to say!!! He said say..I'm feeling nervous could you slow down please. Within days I repeated these words and he took a breath and said fine. He slowed down. Cause he dictated the rules.
Needless to say after a loss of work, anti anxiety tablets and drinking, he broke and became manic. He Took off to a country town where he lives now. No longer Bipolar. He has accepted he has anxiety and issues, refuses to work but there is no insight or responsibity to destroying his family. No therapy. He communicates with me but hearing him talk about himself is easier than living with him.
To answer your question Dr. Fox , Sam Vaknin has/is using something called Cold Therapy. It’s relatively new. The result is that the narcissist looses his need for narcissistic supply - as the grandiose ( false self) is shattered through therapy. It’s extremely intense as the patient has a 40% risk of committing suicide, which is why the patient is under constant surveillance during the whole time. The methods are derive from Piaget’s theories on child psychology because emotionally the narcissist is no more than 11 years old. I just realized that the video is 4 years old and that perhaps you have heard of it by now. If that is the case please let me/us know you thoughts about it.
Hello Dr. Daniel Fox, I realy like the way your approaching the NPD. I agree with you on never been able to break de narc down and rebuild from there. But when you put enough (in the eyes of the narc) ways to gain in a certain way you can create aa most workable environment instead of being seen (by the narc)against them....In relation it means often a financial benefit, less work, less troubles....and it variates from narc to narc depending on there personal intrest. Could you like to consider sharing your insight/thoughts on how to raise children when you co-parent with a narc.....because it's like''parenting against a strong current"" you build....they break it....twist it make it impossible.... and how to stimulate children empthy, taking responsibillity for their behaviour and what it causes and so....
I believe there was a study done over five years, by professional psychology people on narcissist, and sociopaths and so forth. Which concluded that they took their information and blended it into there insanity, and made themselves more intelligent. Coming too the conclusion that not one was helped or redirected too normal or even close too it. 😱
I see narcissism as a disease of feelings and impressions. As a covert narcissist, I prefer to come out in public with a head of pragmatic reason, and this suits me most of the time, but those repressed narcissistic feelings tend to yell louder the more they're not given an outlet... as if they're disgraced by my diplomacy. Either way, I live every moment with instinctive contempt for others, hatred for reality, jealousy of my peers' success, macabre hostility towards anyone who insults me, and defiance to advice.
Still, I wonder if it manifests in reality anyway. In my chat group, nobody was surprised when I came out to them, and one of them knew I had NPD from pretty much the start. Yeah though, I don't like holding down jobs because I 1) get sick of them due to passively seeking out flaws and obsessing over them, and 2) worry about people having enough of my short temper and disgusted attitude then hating me.
Damn my arrogance. I can learn a life lesson for a short while with that wound to my pride, but then my ego-preserving mind rationalizes that "giving in" means giving ground to the enemy, and that life lesson is turned on its head. I'm 23 years old now, and I worry that by age 30 (for example) I'll become a total jerk. I'm already honking at slow drivers and getting short with fast food workers... they don't deserve that. Yeah. Turning into a bloodthirsty beast is going to be loads of fun.
If someone could respond to this comment and add some insight... Well, I would certainly appreciate the attention. I'm not sure what I'd be able to do with the advice. I'm already quite emotionally distant and don't have any friends or romantic partners, no doubt thanks (in no small part) to NPD. And please, be nice. I'm not sure how much more of this narc hate I can take, even with my antidepressants.
The Masquerade - Narcissism from the Inside - use your arrogance and the will to always want to be the best person around to fuel your change: the strongest person is not the one that is always right, but the one that is able to admit to be wrong and that has the courage to change. It’s a path, wish
you well.
@@caro748 I've always been a man of science. Reason and sound logic rule the day. (What does a credible intellectual say? "I don't know," was it?) Since becoming "self-aware" if you will, I've become serious about real achievements and credentials. Not sure how this could backfire as it has done, but I've found myself lying more (it feels good, damnit) among other things. Gotta love mental conditions - they're every ounce as smart as you are.
Echert tolle, gabor mate, thich nhat hanh on you tube can teach to heal your hurt. There is nothing wrong with you . Start from recognizing ...I don't want to suffer anymore. You are already capable of living in a different reality, all you need is to open the door to another dimension where you are enough in yourself ( but kind and compassionate to yourself)
You literally said verbatim what my husband said to me about going to marriage counseling!!
I was married to a covert narcicist. All 9 traits . I didnt know who I was anymore . I thank Jesus Christ for rescuing me from that hell. Is there help for him ? Jesus only.
Ur brilliant Dr Fox. And extreeeeeeemely patient.
7:26 They tie themselves together with other narcissists. This is also part of the workplace bullying dynamic often. It is also part of the bullying that occurs in dysfunctional families. The other narcissists aid and abet the abuse of a narcissist in those ties that are formed among them. I think that whenever a narcissist ties themselves together with another (malignant) narcissist the real intent is to work as a team to destroy empaths. That is the ultimate goal above all else. It's not about victimizing the other narcissist in the relationship, because I don't think that is usually possible. Narcissism is a weltanschaung, a way of viewing the world and they view the world in very different terms from normal people. Their goal is destruction and sadism of every living thing in the world.
All of the members of a dysfunctional family are narcissists except the scapegoat child. The children (other than the scapegoat child) don't just emulate the narcissistic parents. They are making a deliberate, moral choice in their behavior.
Wrong.
This is so true
I have only recently learned what being a narcissist actually entails and I have BPD. My fiance well, currently we are on a break but he sometimes has true empathy which I believe shows he doesn't have the full disorder. That being said I am already seeing 2 things that are somewhat helping him and that is the possibility of losing me (not in an idealization phase but I am one of the only people who actually understands him and why he is this way) and that he is learning what caused him to be like this. The same with my BPD. It's like with a high functioning addict who has to hit their version of rock bottom and realizing what pain and trauma led them to this mindset in the first place. We both have a deep desire to learn about ourselves to in turn learn how to approach others and the world which goes along with as above, so below, as within so without etc. To know the darkness in others (who may have hurt us or hurt someone with NPD) is to know the darkness in oneself. I think this is helping us both.
Dr. Fox how could I find someone in Fort Worth Tx that has a knowledge on this or that can help me explain this to court. I would very much appreciate any help or direction you may be able to point me.
Hello Dr. Fox I have been watching your videos and I am doing therapy now to save my marriage. What is the best steps for empathy and cognitive awareness? Do you have a book you can recommend to work on that for me. Thanks again keep up the awareness it’s because of you I chose to get the help that was much needed.
My narcissistic partner is very hard working and financially successful in his business but is pathetic at intimate partner relationships. Has had most partners break up with him very quickly. He has a very good and loyal circle of friends . So I’m not quite sure that they always have failed In every area of life.
I'm trying to get a handle on healthy relationships with self and others. It's challenging. I've come across an idea of evolutionary psychology. A lot of the theory that I come across seems to be trying to explain how a sophisticated animal (human) is trying to cope with being trapped in a toxic & hostile environment (society). Some psychologists argue that there is no healthy narcissism. Still trying to develop my own thoughts on how to move forward in life in a healthy way.
Is this the cold therapy approach like Sam Vaknin is trying?
The military does that tear down/build up thing all the time... and no DOUBT narcissist gravitate toward the power of the military.
The WORST part abour realizing that I am NUTs the only person in the world is, that people r even WORSE than I think... I wish it wasn't so. 😆🤣😂😁🤨😑🤐
Yup. I ended up gigling for HALF a sec, yup. -_-
I would encourage you not describe yourself using negative terms.
@@DrDanielFox I have NO idea what u consider 2 b negative. 🙂 Yin-yang and balance. ;-)
These folk have an A grade concrete core and no one will break them down; they will probably break the hopeful breaker 😐
Dr. Daniel Fox. It is easy to understand that you know a lot on the subject. It is equally obvious that this is half a self-help and half a sales video. You are promoting your business standing in front of all your diplomas promoting therapy. What would be helpful to me watching the video when you promote the idea of repairing a relationship with a narcissist is to show to facts. Anything substantial. What percentage of the couples with one narcissistic partner you saw for marital problems actually got help and returned to a healthy marriage after your help. Anything else is really just a lot of talk that sounds really good. Almost like weight-loss plans - or how to grow a larger body-part by taking a special pill. Does your approach to repair actually work - and if so, what are the figures? Both in terms of money, time and success rate.
The only narcissistic wound I can think of is when my son died. That told me that I was nowhere as awesome and special as I thought. It STILL took years of reflection and research and training after that and trust me: a narcissist is not cured. You're constantly balancing your own internal landscape against How To Be Fairly Decent. I am extremely sure that I am not ready to be in a romantic relationship because I'm sure I still have a lot of work, but my relationships with my family have improved so much and when I say I love them I love them because I want to make them happy. That's probably still narcissistic but it's better than before.
If you are a victim of a narc: it's not in your head. If you're on the spectrum and you want to change...I really don't know what to say except your self-actualization is constant. Every minute. You must focus your narcissism on that.
These days I'm like a narc snitch.I am currently helping a friend understand what her husband (soon to be ex) means when he says/does certain things and how it isn't about what she lacks, but what we lack. I also apologized to my sister for how I treated her and in both situations I was nearly in tears in anger because I was being seen for what I am and I was the person doing it to myself. But I've done worse to other people so that's how it goes.
Done it, and its all fake whT u get from them..they go thru the motions but it fall flat wit me becuz theirs no emotion..i feel it and the narc feels that I feel it..so ur bac to square one or u cont wit them in that wy and everthing ends up being a lie. So 4 the partner they r left to deal wit the truth....that is no matter wht this person feels nothing 4 u..
It’s better to get away from these people Sir. Who wants to make their partner their patient? You’re basically encouraging persons to stay with their unhealthy partners to continue your business.
I love your videos! But sorry doc there is no cure. You can’t make a narcissist understand what they don’t want to understand. Jails and prisons are full of them and even these institutions can’t do it. All therapy should be aimed at getting their targets of blame away from them and educating them so that they don’t fall for it a second time.
Sincerely,
A former (fed up) psych nurse and a current happy corrections nurse
M S I respect your viewpoint. I never say “cure” but you can lessen the maladaptive patterns. This I’m sure of as I’ve treated many successfully to lessen these patterns. Thanks for your comment.
Kevin Whitcomb and you’re basing your opinion on what life experiences, education, or ? You pulled that number out of your ass. Keep thinking you’re important! Btw not all “bad people” are narcissists. Narcissism is a severe mental disorder that is resistant to treatment due to the pts own arrogance. They’re completely blind but you seem to know all about that. I REALLY admire you. You seem to know EVERYTHING. 😯
I was diagnosed with npd and i wanted to change and so went for theropy also i looked back and saw how i negatively impacted people but it was not all one sided people also hurt me too. We are just people like the rest of humans we struggle just in a different way to others.
Also by the end of theropy i no longer met the full criteria for npd so there is hope people CAN change.
I think only God, through Christ, can accomplish what you are talking about with the narcissist, because He also loves perfectly (I am simplifying a lot, but I do think it's possible, with Him, and have seen it).
I have BD traits and I live ( I believe with covert narcissist) it's a nightmare 😭
It s the "Cold therapy" that Sam Vaknin is talking about. He is on You Tube also.
He's a charlatan
@@WhateverNullPointer really? Whyyy?
@@ferindies8606 False credentials for a start.. I'm not sure if it's in this docu ruclips.net/video/H3vlYpvnZ7o/видео.html
Never seen a single narcissist get better over time. The more they get away with, the worse they grow.
Trying to “break them down” is a laughable idea.
They can’t be fixed….they don’t have a problem
Impaired insight is certainly a major issue.
What book talks about narcissistic language? I need to learn the language
I think he was just talking about framing everything in terms of benefitting the narcissist so that they have a selfish motivation to comply with treatment.
Malignant self love by sam vacnin.
Speak the language? As in tolerating narcissism or manipulating them to get what you want?
Look online for possible titles on books about this, I'm sure there are lots, if not I'm gonna write one
You just described my exwife perfectly
I love causing narc injury, not to help them but just for shits and giggles. All anyone has to do is tell them that they are very negative and they need to work on their negativity and see a therapist. They go into a rage that last for many hours. LMFAO.
Just abandon them and have a peace of mind.
That is impossible.
How can narc recover from something they don't believe they are? That's part of the definition! They would never be in counseling in the first place! Stop giving the victims false hope
caryn martin I don’t think it’s false hope but a recognition that impaired insight is the universal criteria across all personality disorders. Those who develop it can change, and many of my clients have. I wish you well.
So therapy hasn't helped *that* much, then? ;)
Wylted 1 congratulations! (you should consider changing your name from wylted 1 :)
@@DrDanielFox what about none cluster b personality disorders like the cluster C disorders which we hardly ever hear about?? I only know about avoidant personality disorder because I have social anxiety disorder and people like me always wonder what the difference between the 2 is.
Hi I am back sorry I jaat forgot my txt early ago I want to lisin to you for this video and my be I say same thing to you thanks
What If you caused your own narcissistic wound ???
Interesting premise, and possible.
@@DrDanielFox oh boy - I caused a narcissistic wound over 5 years ago, and my poor Narcissist is still sitting high and mighty in his victorious victim throne pointing the finger any time I closely state anything that seems to not sit well with him. You know the visual image I have? If you are Christian you are well familiar with the time when the woman caught in adultery was brought to Jesus, right? All the people left her alone after Jesus asked the person without sin to cast the first stone. Well, her husband is hiding behind a post or a tree or something, and he is holding on to his stone. If she walks toward him, he will hold the stone just in case in the future she gets out of line. If she walks away from him, he will chase after her and throw the stone at her with as much strength as he has. Yeah. That's the image I have of the injured narcissistic partner.
There is no way to fix a corrupted soul whose already committed themselves to darkness. This is a spiritual war.... these evil jerkoffs have condemned themselves. It's not for humans to concern themselves with. That's a job for the Supreme. Evil doesn't want help, not in the way we want to help them. They just want stooges to carry out their orders. It's not our responsibility to pull anyone from the devils bed. Every soul is responsible for itself. Walk on and let it be.
Uh-oh. Approaches to treating NPD? That's a non-starter, since they have no empathy, concern or consideration for others, and see nothing wrong with their behavior. "Healthy Narcissism" does not exist. Any mental health practitioner who uses that term, rather than "self esteem", is waving a red flag, for me.
Marcia Noren I think he may have been going for confidence and certainty which is healthy. Its a spectrum not black or white but many abuse survivors really have that black and white thinking.
Again, no clue what you’re talking about.
That's exactly my thought. It's wrong to change definitions, play with language to confuse people.
Whom it can serve?
Is it to cheer up narcissistic clients like 1st prize for all participants for trying? It gives them wrong message. I know they are wounded scared children but they finally need to hear the truth.
Is the therapist a covert narcissist and wants to feel better?
Nothing personal, I don't know this therapist, just such muddling the water raises such questions.
PS: I think therapy is hard for people because you are asking them to change. You are asking them to be self aware/critical. People get defensive when you question their ability to make decisions. Clients could posit that therapy is a form of gaslighting. Are therapists perfect? 🤔🤨😁
Excuse me, there's no: healthy narcissism. You mean: self confidence, etc.
You cannot confuse these terms. Narcissism has negative connotations only.
There's egoism (and can be healthy or not nice trait), then narcissism/narcissistic traits, with NPD at the end of the spectrum.
Narcissism is very wide term, often used for well groomed person but please don't white wash it. For what? To make persons with NPD feel better?
It is confusing victims and general population. It's hard for me to listen to you.
Similarly, there are no 'too good people', just 'not mature empaths'.
I'm with a sensitive narcissist. I'm trying to connect with him when he does something good, praise good behavior. Gently, I'm explaining him what caused some of his 'quirky' behaviors (he believes he is odd in some ways), and reassure we are all different, and it's ok to be different (it's about his idiosyncrasies, I never approve his toxic behavior).
Still, he is my enemy, does smear campaign against me, etc.
When I try to stop his narcissistic rage he confirms he wants to do it.
I also don't believe in braking people. I'm trying my husband to understand why he is the way he is. I'm not telling him he is a narcissist.
Yes, he should see benefits of choosing good positive behavior.
He knows what is right what is wrong.
My health is failing. I don't know how long I will be able to go on.
It's difficult to find a therapist who understands toxic personalities. Thank you for your videos, teaching others.
A bit Narcissistic to me to have All your Achievement's Diploma's on the Wall, your book...sorry just my observation
ReJan LoLa i like seeing where someone went to school and wished they would post their grades. who wants to be treated by someone in the bottom third of their class.
Are you kidding me? A physician? Every doctor I've ever known is a complete narcissist!
I have met so many physicians who are self-assured, they know what they are talking about, and they help people. I also know that they are able to say, "You know what? I really don't know about this. Let me study about this, or you can go see this specialist." That is NOT narcissism. My son and daughter are physicians, and they are the first to admit they know very little of all there is to know in medicine. Sorry your experiences have been so negative. When you know something, you know that you know it. That doesn't make you a narcissist. Just like you said that every doctor you have known is a complete narcissist - are you a narcissist because you insist you know this?
On the contrary - I am only explaining my experience. See the difference? Best wishes to you. I'm sorry that when you need medical care you must feel so vulnerable wondering if that attending physician really knows what they are talking about (or not) when they attend to you. Best wishes.
I respect this Drs attempt to reason with the narcissist, but making even more space for one to occupy even more control by indulgence of any kind is going to be a disaster, even if it's going to be re positioned later..the first rule with one is. DONT LET THEM LEAD...
Just abandon them and have a peace of mind.
Many people have a hard time moving on for a variety of reasons. Thanks for your insight. Be well