Hey guys! Video idea on how is Voldemort the decedent of the second brother if the second brother killed himself to join his lost love. According to Deathly Hallows the second brother lived alone can you look into it?!
SuperCarlinBrothers i have a theory. If Harry was destined to own the elder wand then how did his wand choose him wen he was 11 ?? I’d love your opinion jay and Ben x
You should do a video on what would have happened if Tom Riddle had returned in the Chamber of Secrets with the part of Voldemort that was still around (From SS on to his return in Goblet of Fire) How would Voldemort have dealt with two versions of himself existed. The pre-rise to power version and the post failure version.
J: "The Firebolt can go from 0 to 150 in 10 seconds." McGonnigal: "Are you getting paid to advertise Firebolts?" J: Actually, Thestral Goggles. Would you like a pair?
I think it's because he was too young to understand his parent's deaths, and because it takes time for someone to understand and come to terms with death.
@@angusmaxim3450 It depends on the person. As someone who lost my grandmother last year, I didn't really come to terms with her death until I walked into her old home and she wasn't there. That was months after her passing. Everyone is different.
I dont think so. In the books it was said people who has seen death sees Thestrals. There wasn't anything about understanding death. Also I think he understood that his parents are dead. That's the whole point of being the boy who lived. I think it's just a detail that wasn't thought through.
Not sure about his mother's death, but I always assumed Thestrals wouldn't appear until you witnessed the death of someone you loved or cared about. Both Quirrell and Riddle were villains to Harry, only Cedric was someone he cared about. Thestrals are like trauma. Harry doesn't remember the circumstances of his mother's death and it takes time for trauma to settle in, hence why it took Harry until next year to see the Thestrals. However I do admit that it's one of those things in Harry Potter that work better as symbolism.
Agreed, my thoughts exactly going into this video. His parents don't count because he was too young to remember his parents and to properly grieve for them. He didn't grieve for Quirrel or Riddle either and i'd argue that Riddle was more a magical manifestation of him rather than a real person anyway. Cedric though? He witnessed Cedric die and it shook him.
That would be saying that Luna watched as her mother died, during that failed magical experiment. Now why on earth , would a parent try that kind of magic, when their child is near? The Lovegoods may have been whacky, but I don't think that even they were that whacky. I think it's another plothole that Rowling tried to fix with a retcon. It's like how she claims that she had always planned for Nagini to have been a human once. No she didn't. What about McGonagall's birthday? How come Dumbledore never said anything about his other brother? I guess it's hard for writers to admit that they've been winging it as they go along.
I personally have believed that "seeing death" doesn't have to mean physically seeing an actual person die. Fitting with this video's conclusion, I have always thought it's more about processing and understand death (seeing can be a word that means to understand) and I've wondered whether one might be able to see thestrals without ever having watched someone die, though I'm sure that helps. If someone's parents died and they didn't witness it, but processed it and really saw how they were there and then gone, I believe they could see thestrals. I think it all comes down to that understanding and being affected in some deep way. That makes sense why Neville could see them because of his grandfather (he was raised by his grandparents so they would have been substitute parents) or how Luna could see them because of her mom.
My theory: Yes, you can lose the ability to see them. To see them you must remember the pain and hurt you felt when death struck. The thestreals appear to you when you have understood that the pain of which you felt was not a way of death, but a way of life. To see a thestral you must understand the passage of life and death. Harry couldn't see them in his 4th year because he hadn't truly understood what he saw. He had to understand that Cedric wasn't coming back, something witch he was hoping for in his 4th year. By 5th year, he was still upset about Cedric's death but he understood he was gone. Harry blamed himself but he wasn't looking for ways to bring him back to life or something. He understood that Cedric had made the passage between life and death. To see a thestral, you can't just SEE death, you have to understand it, come to terms with it. But to REALLY see the thestrals, you must be able to remember the pain and sorrow you felt when witnessing death...
Trust me man. When you see something as painful as death. You can be forced fo forget in mind but not in heart. After all that type of hurt leaves a scar and it doesn't just magically go away. Trust me. Someone who forgets death in mind, would still feel the pain, and it's that pain that allows for Thestrals to be seen. Thank you. Goodnight, you've all be a wonderful audience.
Slightly more complex answer addressing the memory: Voldemort's worst day was his own defeat. Dementors love the guilty, (as said by Sirius in book 3) and are drawn to the horcrux inside of Harry. We don't hear Harry's memory, it's Voldemort's. But Harry can't remember it himself, so he doesn't see thestrals.
Voldemort can’t see the Thestrals because all the deaths he had seen didn’t mean anything to him. He didn’t go through the grief that has to be gone through.
@@213riteshvig2 Not necessarily pain but revenge? satisfaction? something along those lines. You can see how his parents made such a big impact on him that he basically became who he was because of it. But if we're talking about how he needs to feel pain of loss then the only thing that can come to my mind is his childhood. Unless he had some mental disease that made him unable of any feeling, it's pretty impossible for the guy to not had felt sadness of his situation, then pain of losing his mother and consecuently anger towards his dad and his family.
Voldemort doesn't recognize others' divine right to exist. (true Sociopath) In the same way that people can't see Thestrals because, such a ugly creature is not given the space to exist in a lot people's minds. Its not even an afterthought.
Finally, someone acknowledges the fact that Harry had his eyes closed when Cedric dies! The next two lines you didn't read are even more explicit that his eyes were closed: "Terrified of what he was about to see, he opened his stinging eyes. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead." Yeah. I don't know _how_ Harry could see thestrals after that, even though he didn't see exactly when Cedric died.
I'm not sure what happened in his summer holidays after Cedrics death, but I think Harry was so desperate to know how Cedric died that he searched for the truth in Voldemorts mind and there saw the death of Cedric. With the combination of realising his death an the fact Harry was there he "unlocked" the ability to see thestrals. (Just my opinion)
maybe 'see' only means 'understand' in this context and has nothing to do with sight. this would also let blind people 'see' death and maybe hear the thestrals.
Ok heres my philosophy: Harry couldn’t see thestrals after his parents death because it didnt sink in and he couldn’t have remembered it. With quirrel, voldemort was technically part of quirrel so harry only disabled voldemorts ability to connect to a human body, but he never truly died. Lastly with cedric, harry thought a lot about cedrics death over the summer so i think you can only see thestrals after fully understanding death and letting it sink in deep
Didn’t Dumbledore have to tell Harry that Quirrel died? He didn’t understand on his own that he had died? As opposed to Cedric where he watched it and immediately understands Cedric is dead?
Moldy Goldy I’ve been thinking for a while that the movie sort of opens this up as a plot hole because he clearly sees him crumble into nothing in the movie. Though TBF the book OotP wasn’t out yet.
I think I recall Dumbledore saying to Harry in the hospital wing that Voldemort left Quirrell for dead, which loosely suggests to me that by the time Dumbledore got there Harry was already passed out and Quirrell hadn't technically died yet.
@@bucwhovian8305 there are plenty of plot holes in the movies. not the least of which being that they made the basilisk a lizard in the movies which means that a parselmouth shouldn't be able to command it.
Plot Twist: You need to witness _Death,_ the character from Tales of Beedle the Bard. Death uses/used his Invisibility Cloak, so most people don't see him, but maybe just looking in his direction could count. Harry is just very good at looking the wrong way at the right time, and never looks in Death's direction.
Yes, perhaps Death appears when someone dies, but he is invisible to those around, so you would have to look at Death, or look at the person when Death takes tyeir soul or something.
My way of interpreting the Thestral Goggles requirement is that you had to experience the LOSS of death. With Harry's parents he was too young to really bond to them or understand or remember what happened, so while he wishes he'd known them, he's not really feeling the loss from them being forever gone. Same with Querrel and Tom, he saw them as villians, and while he'd taken classes form the first he never really bonded with either, so with their death he didn't feel the loss of death. He wasn't going to think back on them, or miss them. Cedric was the first death that truly meant something to Harry. It was the death of someone he knew, someone he liked, someone who's absence he would feel afterward. And that is also the sort of thing you don't truly feel in the moment, it doesn't hit right away. It's once you've had time to think, time for thoughts to linger, time to wish the person could come back but they can't... Emotionally for Harry, the death of his parents, Quirrell, and Tom were all just facts. The death of Cedric was finally the loss of a person.
I think Voldemort could see Thestrals. He’s always struck me as someone who not only dislikes the idea of succumbing to death, but is also secretly terrified of it. I find it hard to imagine someone so fearful of death who doesn’t understand the meaning of its consequence. If anyone understands that someone dying means you’ll never see someone again, Voldemort seems like the person. It’s what he’s so afraid of happening to him. I can easily imagine him realizing what death is as a young boy and it traumatizing him forever. He seems like he was the kind of child who saw thestrals pulling the carriages in his first year when none of his classmates could.
I agree, and it seems obvious that Voldemort should be able to see thestrals, and it bugs me that J didn't give any good reasons for thinking that Voldemort couldn't see them. He's probably just trying to milk us for comments so that the video performs better lol. That being said, maybe there are a few reasons why Voldemort would not be able to see them. If activating the thestral goggles requires fully understanding the significance of death, then maybe that also means you have to fully appreciate the value of life. Since Voldy is a stone cold serial killer, seeing death wouldn't do anything to him emotionally. Or maybe seeing thestrals requires having a soul, and since Voldy split his soul seven times, he doesn't have enough human spirit left in him to be able to comprehend the sadness of death. Or maybe since Voldy died and then came to life again, thestrals can't see him!!! Ok that last one was a joke, but that would be interesting. All of this is super made up, so it would be easy to argue against it. I think we all deserve to hear J defend his bogus choice.
I like to think Voldemort didn't see them in his first year but read about it in the library, and knew about it then. Until he killed his father he never saw them (if we say just seeing death makes him see them). Also, a second theory is he had saw them since he killed a rabbit as a kid. 🤷♂️
"Or when Cedric dies" Me, with my face covered in tears, desperately holding onto the belief that Cedric didn't die: Cedric didn't die. He obviously became a vampire, changed his name to Edward, moved to Forks, Washington, got taken in by a vampire family which then changed his last name to Cullen, and lives his life going through muggle high school every few decades. The story he told Bella about how he became a vampire is a cover up because he's not supposed to expose magic to muggles. OBVIOUSLY.
Stop denying the truth that he is actually Luna Lovegood after he faked his death he disguised himself as Luna and then cast a memory spell so strong that everyone though Luna had just existed before but she actually did not as she was Cedric
Counter-theory: Death is a being, who created the deathly hallows and comes to collect the dead. Proximity to Death is what allows you to see thestrals (headcanon that they're his minions or pets or something). Death the being has a strange magical ability or property which is like a warped fidelius charm - until you understand the concept of death and accept that it has happened, you cannot see him. The process of grieving is the equivalent of being told the address by the secret keeper. Once you know the secret of death, you can then see the thestrals. You would also be able to see the figure of death, except he has an invisibility cloak of his own (he could surely make or find a new one in the thousands/millions of years since Harry's). Voldemort may be able to see thestrals, if he has grieved before, but I would argue that he was never able to accept the finality of death, hence the creation of horcruxes. He never accepted the concept, he just found ways around it, and therefore wouldn't gain the ability. Side point, I don't think I know his backstory thoroughly enough to say with certainty, but a childhood loss would certainly explain his crippling aversion to death.
But Harry did grieved his parents and understood they are finally dead at least after seeing them in the mirror of erised and losing them again. I really like your theory but this little point, in my opinion, doesn't fit in.
@@Lucy92Hase I'd argue that he grieved for the concept of his parents rather than them as people, because he never knew them and could therefore not truly accept and understand their deaths.
The answer comes in the distinction between “witness death” and “see death”. To witness an event is to be an (albeit outlying) participant in it, but unable to change things or do anything. But to see an event is just viewing it as a spectator. So yea, Harry doesn’t see the Thestrals until he has succumbed to the guilt of not being able to save Cedrick from his death. Also, I don’t think Voldemort feels guilt for any of the deaths he’s witnessed or executed, so I’d say he couldn’t see the therstrals. Think of Luna and how her mother died, having been a witness to her mother’s death, imagine the guilt she feels.
I always stood by this: Harry has experienced SIGNIFICANT trauma in his life. Him not remembering these things, not seeing the thestrals for a while, it all made sense to me. Over the summer Harry was faced with having to process the trauma, to an extent, of seeing Cedric, as it haunted his dreams and he thought about it (if only sparingly).
I remember when book 5 came out and my mom got me into reading the whole series and having to speculate what might happen... literature is a different kind of magic for everyone to enjoy including us muggles
Personally I've always seen "Thestral Vision" as being linked to the grieving process. As in, someone has to really, seriously feel the impact of a death and go through mourning and/or the stages of grief from it. Like you said, baby Harry wouldn't have remembered or internalized his parents' death enough to grieve for them. Sure, he wishes they could be around, but it isn't the same as remembering and experiencing the loss. And with Quirrel and the journal horcrux, he was literally trying to put a stop to the most evil wizard in the world, so there'd be zero reason to mourn that. But witnessing Cedric's death REALLY got to him, and it is the first official time he's experienced such an intense mourning process - probably because he partially blamed himself for Cedric's death. Likewise, Tom Riddle is a remorseless psychopath that has ZERO reason to mourn the loss of people he's killed, so I do agree that he may not have been able to see them. And regarding Luna Lovegood, I've read theories that her witnessing the death of her mother drove her half mad with grief, which is why she's so flighty and detached, and why she's been able to see Thestrals for much longer. Not sure if this has been confirmed at all, but it's an interesting thought!
Good theory, but I’m still confused as to why Harry couldn’t see the thestrals on the carriage ride from Hogwarts at the end of Goblet of Fire if Cedric’s death was still so fresh in his mind. He only notices them when he returns to Hogwarts the next year.
@@savannahames6270 Because the grieving process takes longer. Ever heared of the five stages? Only the last one is accepting. This process CAN take months or even years. it will take certainly more then a couple of days or weeks.
His parents: Harry was simply too young to actually comprehend what happened. Quirrell: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Harry never really saw Quirrell die, or at least didn't believed it until Dumbledore told Harry that Quirrell died after Voldemort left him. Cedric: Yes, Harry saw Cedric die, but it sometimes takes time to accept death. Harry probably couldn't believe that Cedric had really died. He was probably still in a state of shock at the end of Goblet of Fire. We see something like this when Harry refuses to believe that Sirius has truly left the world at the end of Order of the Phoenix.
But doesn’t that mean he accepted Sirius’s death before he accepted Cedric’s? Because he had exactly same number of days untill he goes back home from School after both events. And he didn’t comprehend Cedric’s death after weeks before next term but he had made up his mind at the death of his God father ?
Manveer Gill you are correct but Something about Quirrell is wrong (Btw your explantion is amazing sorry I have to correct this) The book version when Harry sees Quirrell die he never sees Quirrell die because When he touched Quirrell he inflicted pain onto himself through his scar there fore passing out (Again you did a reallly good job explaining this Manveer Gill)
Well harry dosnt have any memories of his mother so while he is sad about his mother's death he really didnt know her but he knew Cedric which could have made the death more impactful and according to the books he actually didnt see quarrel die he passed out
I feel this is an easy enough theory to figure out honestly. The Thestrals couldn’t been seen by Harry from Qurriel and his parent’s death since they didn’t affect him emotionally. Yes, his parent’s death did affect him but he was too young to remember them so it didn’t affect him emotionally. Cedric was the first death he’d seen that affected him, which is why Luna could see the Thestrals, she was old enough to remember her mother and old enough for it to affect her emotionally. The reason why he couldn’t see them at the end of The Goblet of Fire was because Cedric’s death was so fresh in his mind that he hadn’t had a chance to process it
"J.K Rowling said in an interview she always knew what was pulling the carriage", given she also said she knew Nagini was a woman before even starting to write philosopher's stone, let me doubt
@@sofig1237 Yeah, and it's kind of not her fault. She's just the type of writer that "writes from beginning to end" instead of from "end to beginning". There's no problem in this, except that if the series gets longer, it's very easy to create plotholes due to how your view changes as your story progresses without a clear ending already set.
i dont see why she thinks she has to have every little detail planned out. to me, it more shows the finesse of a writer if they can add unplanned details later on in the story that totally work!
As a writer myself, you'd be surprised how many tiny details we know that don't make it into the actual writing. I fully believe her when she says she knew things. And if she's just adding new things, that's great too! But everyone wants to complain and tell her how to write HER story and HER world.
@@bookwormkiara5468 for a standard author I'd have no doubt about her knowing about Thestrals, that's indeed a small detail you can have in mind from the start, I'm only saying the precedent in her interview doesn't lead me to trust her and the global inconsistencies in her books make me think she's not really a prothinker kind of author
You have the requirements to see thestrals all wrong. You have to have witnessed, comprehended, and grieved death. Harry was too young to comprehend his parents death at the time. He did not grieve Quirrel or Riddles diary. At the end of Harry's 4th year he had not yet fully processed and grieved Cedric's death
This one is a plothole. I don’t care what reasoning “justifies it”. It’s really Rowling saying no because this, no because that, no because reasons. Rowling really should have had Hermoine give a better definition or Hagrad correct her imperfect explanation.
I'm remembering an explanation about how you see Thestrals being like: You need to understand death. I took that as you need to go through all the stages of grieving and processing what death is.
A roommate of mine passed away during the initial lockdown, and I found him. Seeing his face for the first time that day... seeing death... finally made me understand the difference. It's hard to describe... but I've thought a lot about this ... but I felt like if Thestrals were real, I'd def see them now. Knowing about death and see someone you know pass are much more different than I could have ever imagined.
I'm so sorry for your loss. That must have been shocking and heartwrenching. I hope you're doing well and have found the support you need to process it.
The way I've always understood it is that you have to see, understand and process death. Harry as a baby can't understand nor process death, and by the time he was old enough to understand it, he had no connection to it anymore. Quirrell died, but when Harry asked Dumbledore if Voldemort was actually gone or if he could come back, Dumbledore sais that Voldemort is still out there and making a plan to come back. Thus Harry not interpreting what happened as Voldemort dying, and because he was linked to Quirrell, it has the same effect for him. Tom Riddle wasn't alive in the Chamber of Secrets. Harry killed a magical image of Tom. Not a real person. At the end of Goblet, Harry was still processing, and hadn't come to terms with Cedric's death yet, so he couldn't see the Thestrals yet, but once he had some time over the summer to think about it, process it, and come to terms with the fact that he would never see Cedric again, he was then able to put on his Thestral Goggles. (Just like you and Jo said.)
His mother-he was a baby, didn’t understand death Quirrell-Never actually saw him die, he was left to die after Harry passed out Riddle-Not actually a person, just a Horcrux vision thingy Cedric-This is the only one that holds weight, JK Rowling said it needed to process but tbh I just think she hadn’t thought of the thestrals yet.
I saw an interview with JKR saying that the reason why harry couldn’t see thestrals at the end of the goblet of fire was because she didnt want to open up a new mystery just as the book would finish, so she waited until the next book to start describing them
and changed her mind in the other interview to it being related to processing the death. its almost like she didnt know they were there and is justifying the plot hole post hoc
Keep in mind that the memory Harry has of his parents dying, when he encounters Dementors, might not even be his. That could be the piece of Voldemort's soul reliving it's worst memory.
@Connor DoubleYou That just blew my mind and it makes total sense. I mean Luna has suffered similar trauma and is not affected by the dementors as much. Neville has severe trauma too. But Harry and the piece of Voldemorts soul both share the memory of the night when harrys parents died so in seeing the dementors and reliving that moment they have something in common. Maybe thats when the souls are closest to each other and harry not only feels his own fears but the deeple troubled soul of voldemort, unaware of love and deeply afraid of death and that makes him faint
I remember reading this. They have a number of different wand core materials in the wizarding world. For example, in the USA they also use horned serpent horn and rougarou hair. Fleur's wand has the hair of a veela. But a lot of these cores are more volatile and temperamental. Look at the Elder wand for example. Just having ANOTHER wand you own tugged from your hand changes it's alignment to that person rather than you, meaning that it's constantly changing allegiances. Phoenix feather, dragon heartstring and unicorn hair are just a lot more stable and reliable.
Dragon products don't seem particularly hard to get in the HP universe, everyone seems to have dragon leather stuff for instance. Thestrals would be easier than phoenix though (the rarest core out of the 3 he uses), but perhaps Ollivander can't see them, or doesn't want to create a wand from a creature that is considered a "bad omen".
It seems more about trauma than anything else. Cedric was the only death Harry witnessed that traumatized him. Trauma tends to kill naiveté. Everyone else is naive to the Thestrals but Harry and Luna are both hurt from "witnessing death." And about that terminology, we tend to beat around the bush when it comes to talking about deaths that have scarred us. I think "witnessing death" is more of a nice term for the PTSD you have from seeing a friend/family member die. People get upset when they take things at face value and then find plotholes. No, it's that you misunderstood, not that there is a plothole. And it's not that he saw his parents' deaths, he was a baby and obviously doesn't remember it so he doesn't really feel their deaths. He feels their absence when he's old enough to understand, but he doesn't feel the trauma of seeing them die.
Before i watch it’s because harry didn’t understand death when his parents died Edit: also he couldn’t see them till fifth year because he mustn’t have thought about it a lot until the summer
This was my answer. Also, he has to care about the person in some fashion. He didn't care about Quirrel or Tom Riddle, but Cedric was becoming a friend. Seeing him die meant something.
I always thought that the reason was because the death had to effect the *_perception_* of the individual on some profound level (like, cognitive changes). This would explain Harry's lack of seeing them, because none of the previous deaths actually effected him profoundly, the way losing Cedric (a friend, rival, someone he knew, someone he HELPED to die by offering him a tie) did. His parents, he was just too young to be impacted by, since he didn't have the cognitive ability to perceive death yet. Ergo (for me at least), the Thestrals are interacting with people's perceptions re: death and life. Once death becomes a genuine, perceived fate/reality, the Thestrals become tangible. It took Harry time to see them after Cedric's death because perception takes time to form/shift (hence why traumas take years to uncover/deal with). *Edit for spelling/clarity. :)
Parents death: 1.we don't know if he saw it. Not in the book, only the flash of light. 2.he woulden't be able to comprehend death as a infant. Quirls death: Never dies in front of him in the books. Harry looses conciousness. Quirl dosent turn to dust in the books, he just get burn blisters from Harrys touch. Luna witnessed her moms death one on one and she was older.
To the whole removing memory I have another question Could someone alter your memories to make it so that you think you saw a death when really haven’t
Sage Deeley I’d argue that someone could technically do that, but I doubt that it would lead to the charmed person being able to see Thestrals. I mean, given what we know about love potions and love charms, magic can’t truly replicate emotions. A person under a love spell may act infatuated, but it’s just a hollow shell of the real thing. It’s probably the same thing with grief. So, a person whose memory has been tampered with may have the false memories of *seeing* a death, but without the real *feeling* of having processed and come to terms with it, they couldn’t see the Thestrals.
Mario I think it depends on whether their belief is naturally occurring or not. So, if a person genuinely believed a loved one to be dead- say that they went missing or something- and had to live through the grief of it, then they would be able to see Thestrals. But, if someone tampered with their memories, then no. Because, I mean, if you made someone *think* that a loved one died, you’d have to give them so many other memories. Memories of a funeral, memories of crying, memories of getting sad at random little things that remind you of them. And everyone is different! There’s no way that a person could just backfill in a complex emotional process like that. So even if the person thinks that their loved one is dead, the grieving process hasn’t really been completed, so no Thestrals. Maybe if the person lived with the false memories for a long time and was then able to grieve. I think the only situation that would work is if you didn’t tamper with a person’s past memories. Like if you just made them think that their loved one had *just* died very recently, and then left them to grieve on their own for a while. I could see that working, because your reaction is still basically your own.
For the question of whether Harry “saw death” when his parents were killed, there’s this thing called Infant Amnesia. It’s basically means that you have memories of your being and infant but you cannot recall them from your memory. Therefore it’s very possible that he didn’t “see death” when Voldemort killed his parents due to Infant Amnesia
My theory is that, he doesnt understand death is that he didnt knew much about wizarding world neither the killing spell. He pretty much was confused about everything until Barty Crouch jr or Moody, who teaches the killing spell.. thus knowing how someone dies, he is pretty sure knows why Cedric died and others.
THE SOLUTION: Any memory brought out by the dementors is actually Voldemort's memory. Which is also why the dementors love Harry. He's got the most guilty human of all time attached to him.
All I know is that if Voldy couldn't see them, I so wish we'd seen them attacking him during the battle. Just suddenly flipped over by an invisible stampede, bamboozled, trampled by air
@@arty217 no he mourns the loss of the IDEA of his parents basically because it happened when he was so young he cant remember them & theyre strangers 2 him so while he understands that its tragic that hes an orphan he cant miss wat he never had so 2 speak & all he knew b4 hogwarts was life @ the dursleys so he cant miss the life he had w/ his parents as he cant remember it
@Mason Jordan Who said you can only get 7? Voldemort only wanted 7 because 7 is a very magically powerful number (Whatever that means). Or another theory, what if pieces of soul so small can't sustain a body?
I don’t think a soul is a quantifiable amount. If you split your soul, it’s still the same amount of soul in each object, your soul is just in multiple places and extremely broken.
@@bhargavchandramouli1633 that's such a lie my dude. she does this every time there's a new plot hole. "I knew what moved the carriages from the beginning" she completely insane is she's trying to tell me none of her plot holes were just because she had things to make plot holes
It's really interesting to think about Voldemort's ability to see the Thestrals and imo if appreciating/understanding death is the criteria he absolutely does not see them.
isn't it obvious? JKR hadn't thought about them when she wrote GoF, she just came upo with them when she wrote OotF, simple as that. yeah, she retconned it with that comment where she states that harry has to "assimialte" the death he just saw... but lets be honest, we all know she hadn't imagined them yet.
I have an elegant solution for you that shows it was planned out: Harry is a horcrux. Remember how those memories are pulled out from dementors who are drawn to him in book three? They're attracted to Voldemort's guilt. The memory of his parents death isn't Harry's memory of trauma-- it's Voldemort's memory of defeat. So Harry couldn't see the thestrals until he was there with Cedric when he died and he could comprehend that death that occurred right in front of him.
Rachel Hansen except he literally murdered both Quirrel AND Tom Riddle, both to save the lives of other people and help others. In PoA, he spends half the book trying to save other people’s lives, even Buckbeak, so it’s not like Harry doesn’t understand death and hasn’t seen people die or been in their presence, and like it was quoted, he didn’t even SEE or WATCH Cedric die, it quite literally is VERY inconsistent. So since literally every physical detail ever presented in the story up until that point completely contradicts the quote “someone who has SEEN death”, it makes sense that she is just lying and has decided to make it psychologically based instead of WHAT SHE ACTUALLY WROTE AND THE NUMEROUS EXAMPLES.
@@rachelhansen2417 If she'd really had it planned from the outset, she would've made that distinction clear when she was explaining what thestrals were.
It's Just my opinion but I like to believe that this inconsistency is derived from the fact that the character that tells us you need to see death is just incorrect.
And also it says I think in SS, that Harry “didn’t remember his parents at all”. I think that also has to with it. As a baby you wouldn’t REMEMBER seeing your parents dying in front of you. ;)
Good point. But what of Professor Quirrel? Did he not die when Harry defeated him/Voldy at the end of Sorcerer's Stone? And I don't suppose a memory in a diary counts as seeing someone die? (i.e. Tom Riddle in Chamber of Secrets) But he did CLEARLY see Cedric die in front of him.
If it's the act of losing someone, that would mean a lot more people in the class would be able to see Therstals, especially Umbridge at here age. There are few people who do not know someone who have died and having to come to terms with that, even at 15. Especially with ages of wizards compared to humans you'll probably have great grand parents, even great great grand parents around when you'd be born, who would be very close to death all your childhood.
With that point, I wonder if the therstals, once kind of manifesting themselves upon that emotional death, become sort of guardian of support for that person, only appearing when in need like Phox, the phoenix or the griffindor sword?
Imo: he has to be conscious of the death. At a certain age humans just wipe their memory basically Also I say quirrel didn't count. Maybe he was already dead?
@@saulcuthbertson7248 yes but quirrel being a horcrux is up for debate. And he's it's probably a plothole but maybe since Voldy and Qiirrelly were one person, Voldy being alive prevents the death?
Here’s the thing. I think Voldemort would be able to see the thestrals. You need to be able to appreciate the death that you witnessed, and considering that Voldemort went out of his way to research dark magic and went ahead to (intentionally) create 7 horcruxes, a method of avoiding death, he is intimate with the subject of death, so he knows what he’s doing when he ends a life.
Harry's a horcrux. Dementors brought out Voldy's memory of his own defeat. Harry himself doesn't remember and so he can't see them. Case closed, it was well thought through by Rowling. (This is also why dementors love Harry but didn't affect Sirius as much in Azkaban).
@@rachelhansen2417 Occam's razor states the the simplest solution is most likely the right one. It's much more likely that JK just didn't think of Thestrals before that point.
@@dragonlord1935 this theory explains why dementors love harry, how he hears that memory, and why he can't see thestrals. I'd say Occam's Razor is on my side.
@@rachelhansen2417 Not exactly. The Dementors didn't bring out the memory of Voldy's defeat through the horcrux. They brought out the memory of Lily sacrificing herself. This is further proven by how Harry recalls a woman's scream instead of a sensation of pain (what he WOULD recall if that memory belonged to the horcrux). You're also making a HUGE assumption here by saying that the horcrux inside Harry somehow holds Voldy's memories when in the canon story the only thing we see that comes close is Harry's mental connection to Voldemort's emotions and his current actions. A lot of the points you bring up CAN be explained but only if you stretch the canon material quite a bit. It's more fair to assume that JK simply didn't think of Thestrals before then.
@@dragonlord1935 those are interesting points! I hope you don't mind a friendly debate. I'd also like to point you to the diary. Young Tom Riddle shows Harry some of his own memories, showing that a horcrux is capable of remembering events. Additionally, for anyone, memory of trauma isn't limited to the pain of a singular moment, but also the circumstances which lead to it. Reliving the moments that lead to defeat would be traumatic for Voldemort, and would thus be relived in the presence of dementors. Additionally, a baby is simply incapable of storing such a memory. I also recall that in the seventh book, Harry full on relives these exact moments from the perspective of Voldemort, with detailed visuals.
Seems like it's less seeing death and more having a certain level of maturity and empathy of which only seeing death, but not always seeing death, could bring
The line from the interview "appreciate fully that you will never see that person again" is what sticks out to me. Throughout the series, Harry is constantly convinced that there might be some way to be reunited with his parents, from the mirror to the time turner misunderstanding. With Quirrel, I think it just wasn't someone Harry cared about in any sense. The witnessed death seems to also require a sense of loss to accompany it. And in that regards, it's hard to think of anyone Voldemort might miss. Maybe Snape? Had Voldemort been present for the death of Dumbledore, that might have stuck with him also. Maybe Nagini would count? Regardless, all these deaths happen near the end of his life. So Riddle probably wouldn't have ever seen a Thestral.
Before watching the video, I'd said you must have been conscience of death. Lily's death: He was 1 year old, so non conscient of the death. Quirrel's death: He actually never see it. He passed out before (not like in the movie ^^). Diary's death: That's not a death.... Cedric's death: He took time for he to pass through the death acceptation ^^
I dont think that one simply loses the ability to see thestrals, like when someone close dies, we do mourn but then sadly we learn to live with it. We dont think about it all the time but that void is definitely there, and so the thestrals too willalways be there. Similar to how we can bring anyone who passed away back to life, thestals dont disappear, as the experience of a death closeby has willed the appearance of it.
Or maybe Harry's thestral goggles didn't trigger because of Cedric at all since he didn't see him die. What if it triggered because of his mother's appearance in the graveyard? Think about it. Harry saw his mother die but he couldn't see the thestrals because he couldn't understand what he had lost. But in the graveyard he saw her like a living person unlike in pictures (ghostlike but yeah). She talked to him. So it was later that year that he fully appreciated what he had lost and she was never going to speak to him ever again. And that triggered his thestral goggle power.
After Cedric's death he was in a state of shock up to the end of the school year. He spoke to nobody about it, heard bits and pieces in the hospital wing. He was just carrying on without fully realising what had happened, especially since there was a more stressful thing bothering him : Goldy is back. It is only during the summer holidays with all the horrible nightmares and Harry's lonely moments that the death of Cedric could really sink in. of course the dementor attack sped up the process
Before this video starts: Witnessing death doesn’t have to mean having seen death: it could mean professing to others the death of someone. Harry never had to remind anyone he was an orphan, and while he was sad to not have parents no one had to be reminded. When Harry began professing to others that Cedric had died, he had become a Witness unto the Death of a person. He was ingrained in the reality of what the death of someone meant
GET INSPIRED: ruclips.net/video/8gHwP0UgaDA/видео.html Seriously, i have something to say, so Listen! We, as a community, need to Tweet towards J.K.Rowling that she should allow the Copyright for Harry Potter to be losened a bit. Cause we need some Sort of Reboot, as almost all books are Lost in Adaptation. The movies just do not represent the franchise right; evidend by Dobby alone. If you know what i mean... And even if we wouldnt need a reboot, the creativity of the fans is still limited too much, if you get what i mean! Like it is, no one can give us what we need and/or want: A lot people want a Series about the 4 Founders! A lot understand how lost in Adaptation all the books are and want all the Movies remade, maybe as a Cartoon, maybe not. And lastly, a lot of people love the idea of a ‚All generation at once’-Cartoon, as the AMV above shows. Isnt it epic? These 3 things should ALL come to fruition, in my opinion. Not to mention at least 1!! Currently, the franchise is limited too much... Fans should be allowed to make Animations about Hogwarts and all ist generations and Magical secrets. If you agree the creativity is restrained too harshly, tweet to Rowling! And also discuss! And yeah, i know Rowling gets Tweets about a whole other subject nowadays, but lets get away from that for a second, to help the Harry Potter Franchise, ok?!
You know what I just asked myself: if Tom Riddle from the diary in the Chamber of Secrets would’ve managed to get his corporeal form back, would there basically be two Voldemorts? Because if he doesn’t feel if a piece of his soul is destroyed, how would he know if one piece managed to get a body back? And much more importantly: would they like team up, with the younger one bring older Voldi‘s sidekick? 😅
i kinda think there would be 2 voldemorts at same time and that they wouldnt team up since voldemort seems like someone who isnt willing to share all that power
Honestly I think the younger version would have killed the older one because he would have seen him as a disgrace to his name and wouldn't want something like that to have his name
Exactly! To add to this: the memories we hear are that of Voldemort's horcrux inside of him. The dementors are drawn to his guilt and pull out his worst memory--of his own defeat.
My theory: Harry actually could see thestrals, if not after death of parents, then at least after death of Quirell. Reason Harry didn't actually seen them is Dumbledore's overprotection! D. could easily enchant Harry to ignore those (to make him less different than he already was perceived by other pupils). Also all those distraction spells that was used in Deathly Hallows are perfect reason why Harry didn't noticed thestrals. Also D. could easily cast disillusion charm on thestrals themselves. Thestrals have good sense of direction, the do not need to see themselves or other thestrals to pull carriages. Or that could be done by Hagrid (who knows what magic Hagrid actually could be able to cast, especially when it involves magical creatures). Reason why Dumbledore or Hagrid didn't do the same trick at the beginning of the Order of Phoenix: Dumbledore avoided Harry at all cost that year, and Hagrid wasn't available (he was tracking Giants). So Harry finally gets to see what was hidden from him 5 years.
But Luna saw them since she was in school. She would have mentioned it, if she also saw them for the first time. If there was an disillusion charm on them, nobody should have been able to see them.
Simone G. But Luna and her father are well versed in the weird, so she must have just not bothered to mention them. Or she did, no one believed her and she just dropped the subject after a while.
I honestly don't trust JK's "I've always known" and other explanations for things anymore Yeah she wrote it but she has the bad tendency to change things and come up with explanations to fit whatever is needed. I'd rather just know she made a mistake as is natural in such a long story and we move on at some point you need to let your story go and then off course there's the dumbledore is gay except they don't show it in ANY of the franchise ever thing, make a video about that please SCBros
I'm commenting this everywhere! The simplest solution that shows it was planned required the knowledge that Harry is a Horcrux. He doesn't remember his parents deaths and can't see thestrals. But Voldemort inside of him does, so that memory of his defeat comes out when dementors are near. Also why the dementors love Harry. @supercarlinbrothers I hope you see some of these comments.
Well, I imagined that he couldn't see the thestrals at the end because he had his eyes closed, but he could after BECAUSE he relived the memory, but through Voldemort's eyes, and scince he was there at the time, he had technically witnessed the death he didnt see and could now properly see thestrals. Just me? Ok
@@nyxis_ Harry never actually sees him die he just hears Voldemort say avada kedavra and sees a flash of green light he never sees him drop dead or anything and in order to see Thestrals you just don't have to witness death but you have to accept and grieve that the person will never come back at the end of Goblet of Fire Harry isn't ready to accept the fact that Cedric is gone but at the beginning of Order of Phoenix he knows that Cedric now will never come back oh and thats why Harry can't see Thestrals when he literally kills Quirrell or when his parents die Luna can because she accepted death and the fact her mother was never coming back
tHeOrY: to see a thestral you have to not only witness, but PROCESS death, maybe during his time at the dursleys he proccesed the fact that cedric had died.
Your theory is actually true😉 When J.K.Rowling was asked, why Harry couldn’t see the Thestrals before, she answered: _[…] However, he had to witness Cedric's murder, and this finally made the Thestrals visible to him. So why couldn't he see them on the way back to the train station? Well, I didn't want to introduce a new mystery at the very end of the fourth book, which would then have remained unsolved for a very long time. So I decided that Harry wouldn't be able to see the thestrals until he got over the initial shock and really realized what death meant (i.e., when he realized in full that Cedric was gone forever and never coming back - and that takes time at any age). After two months away from school, constantly thinking about the murder and reliving it in nightmares, the thestrals have taken shape and form, and he sees them quite clearly._
I think i comes down to being able to remember the event of witnessing death and so yes i believe you could lose the ability to see thestrals if a memory charm is put on you. Also i wonder if you would have to be a wizard to see them, like if a muggle had seen death, could they?
I wonder if Harry's eyesight was so poor as a baby he couldn't "see" when his mum died? Even if he had glasses at a year old, Lily was putting him to bed or he was already asleep in his crib, so no glasses= poor vision= unable to see?
Remember Harry thought of it as a dream at first, while I doubt Rowling had thought of Thestrals before OotP, It's possible Harry didn't think the person had died yet thus hadn't accepted they died.
Maybe you have to see the person dying in real life/have to be there when it happens. Otherwise all the kids who watch things like horror movies would still be able to see thestrals even though they’ve only seen death on a screen and not in person.
I believe that “witness death” is witness “death” the character take the life force from the vessel after it’s dead but that just my opinion. I get that you don’t “see” this happen but it makes sense to me
With Hogwarts Legacy having Thestrals, I almost think that the method of death can play a part in seeing Thestrals. Spoiler for Hogwarts Legacy even though A) it's at the start of the game and B) in the grand scheme of things is never really brought up again, our character witnesses a guy get munched by a dragon. Comparatively, Harry witnessed Cedric get blasted by the Avada Kedavera curse. Our character saw Thestrals instantly, Harry saw his over time. This is probably morbid, but it may be that the brutality of a death also ties into seeing Thestrals. Avada Kedavera is instant and stainless, Cedric looks like he could've been petrified by the basilisk instead of murdered, compared to being turned into dragon food, definitely the opposite of the killing curse.
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Hey guys! Video idea on how is Voldemort the decedent of the second brother if the second brother killed himself to join his lost love. According to Deathly Hallows the second brother lived alone can you look into it?!
SuperCarlinBrothers you have to see death, understand it, and accept it. You can see someone die and come to accept what you saw, and that their dead.
SuperCarlinBrothers i have a theory. If Harry was destined to own the elder wand then how did his wand choose him wen he was 11 ?? I’d love your opinion jay and Ben x
You should do a video on what would have happened if Tom Riddle had returned in the Chamber of Secrets with the part of Voldemort that was still around (From SS on to his return in Goblet of Fire)
How would Voldemort have dealt with two versions of himself existed. The pre-rise to power version and the post failure version.
"The horseless carriages were not horseless."
But aren't they though? Because they aren't horses.🐎 🐎
gray stripe dead me-me
They are, they are classed as a breed of winged horse
Of courseless.
April Hook Great job!
Thestrals ARE Horses, or at least equine like.
Like Unicorns,
Why does “Thestral Goggles” sound like something Luna would develop and then sell? xD
*give away for free because she is an absolute treasure
Well, maybe the goggles worn by the aurors in FB2 riding the carriage were such a thing ?
His imitation also looked like her iconic Quibbler Decoder glasses
@@rainhardravenclaw809 I seriously thought your last name was RavenCLAW, but after a double take, I realized there was no C 🤣
Digizel the Bui yesssss
J: "The Firebolt can go from 0 to 150 in 10 seconds."
McGonnigal: "Are you getting paid to advertise Firebolts?"
J: Actually, Thestral Goggles. Would you like a pair?
HUEH I JUST READ THAT PART XD
I meant the quidditch match
survivordave pretty sure Minerva would not be needing such goggles. :p
From 0 to 250 in the books
@@denkikaminari8703 maybe survivordave has it in mph and your 250 is in km/h? ;-)
I think it's because he was too young to understand his parent's deaths, and because it takes time for someone to understand and come to terms with death.
After Cedric's memorial that should have happened. So he should have seen them at the end of GoF.
@@angusmaxim3450 It depends on the person. As someone who lost my grandmother last year, I didn't really come to terms with her death until I walked into her old home and she wasn't there. That was months after her passing. Everyone is different.
@@angusmaxim3450 they have to process it and accept it.
I dont think so. In the books it was said people who has seen death sees Thestrals. There wasn't anything about understanding death. Also I think he understood that his parents are dead. That's the whole point of being the boy who lived. I think it's just a detail that wasn't thought through.
Team VLCN pretty sure this was confirmed
Not sure about his mother's death, but I always assumed Thestrals wouldn't appear until you witnessed the death of someone you loved or cared about. Both Quirrell and Riddle were villains to Harry, only Cedric was someone he cared about. Thestrals are like trauma. Harry doesn't remember the circumstances of his mother's death and it takes time for trauma to settle in, hence why it took Harry until next year to see the Thestrals. However I do admit that it's one of those things in Harry Potter that work better as symbolism.
Marc Shanahan That’s what I thought as well.
Agreed, my thoughts exactly going into this video. His parents don't count because he was too young to remember his parents and to properly grieve for them. He didn't grieve for Quirrel or Riddle either and i'd argue that Riddle was more a magical manifestation of him rather than a real person anyway. Cedric though? He witnessed Cedric die and it shook him.
That would be saying that Luna watched as her mother died, during that failed magical experiment. Now why on earth , would a parent try that kind of magic, when their child is near? The Lovegoods may have been whacky, but I don't think that even they were that whacky. I think it's another plothole that Rowling tried to fix with a retcon. It's like how she claims that she had always planned for Nagini to have been a human once. No she didn't. What about McGonagall's birthday? How come Dumbledore never said anything about his other brother? I guess it's hard for writers to admit that they've been winging it as they go along.
I personally have believed that "seeing death" doesn't have to mean physically seeing an actual person die. Fitting with this video's conclusion, I have always thought it's more about processing and understand death (seeing can be a word that means to understand) and I've wondered whether one might be able to see thestrals without ever having watched someone die, though I'm sure that helps. If someone's parents died and they didn't witness it, but processed it and really saw how they were there and then gone, I believe they could see thestrals. I think it all comes down to that understanding and being affected in some deep way. That makes sense why Neville could see them because of his grandfather (he was raised by his grandparents so they would have been substitute parents) or how Luna could see them because of her mom.
with lily's death I always assumed it was because he was too young to actually remember her death
Harry flying a Thestral. Voldemort confused: "What is this, flying potion??"
No lol Voldemort must've seen death multiple maybe even hundreds of times
To Voldie Moldie Harry would've been riding air
@@TV-ly3dp New favorite term for Voldemort. Thank you!
@@deathrayman8074 You're welcome
Yep 😂
My theory:
Yes, you can lose the ability to see them. To see them you must remember the pain and hurt you felt when death struck. The thestreals appear to you when you have understood that the pain of which you felt was not a way of death, but a way of life.
To see a thestral you must understand the passage of life and death.
Harry couldn't see them in his 4th year because he hadn't truly understood what he saw. He had to understand that Cedric wasn't coming back, something witch he was hoping for in his 4th year.
By 5th year, he was still upset about Cedric's death but he understood he was gone. Harry blamed himself but he wasn't looking for ways to bring him back to life or something.
He understood that Cedric had made the passage between life and death.
To see a thestral, you can't just SEE death, you have to understand it, come to terms with it. But to REALLY see the thestrals, you must be able to remember the pain and sorrow you felt when witnessing death...
which would be why voldy couldn't see them, he didn't care, he didn't feel the pain of the families the lost someone, he killed for fun
dang im reading the others and they have actual thought in them mine looks like trash
Trust me man. When you see something as painful as death. You can be forced fo forget in mind but not in heart. After all that type of hurt leaves a scar and it doesn't just magically go away. Trust me. Someone who forgets death in mind, would still feel the pain, and it's that pain that allows for Thestrals to be seen. Thank you. Goodnight, you've all be a wonderful audience.
SugarGem Gacha this is perfect
That makes more sense than carlin one and it was already explained why he couldn't
Simple answers before I watch:
Mother: Baby has no concept of death
Quirell: Half life via Unicorn blood
Tom Riddle: Soul fragment via Horcrux
Slightly more complex answer addressing the memory:
Voldemort's worst day was his own defeat. Dementors love the guilty, (as said by Sirius in book 3) and are drawn to the horcrux inside of Harry. We don't hear Harry's memory, it's Voldemort's. But Harry can't remember it himself, so he doesn't see thestrals.
Hotel: Trivago
@@kit_nine killed me
Papaya Man does that mean kit_nine can see thestrals now? 💀
@@meganelise277 maybe, I haven't seen one anywhere, have you?
Voldemort can’t see the Thestrals because all the deaths he had seen didn’t mean anything to him. He didn’t go through the grief that has to be gone through.
Maybe his dad's (?
Sure he didn't grieve perse but it did mean something to him
@@hyunsoo_zx His dad left him tho he proably will not even feel pain
@@213riteshvig2 Not necessarily pain but revenge? satisfaction? something along those lines. You can see how his parents made such a big impact on him that he basically became who he was because of it. But if we're talking about how he needs to feel pain of loss then the only thing that can come to my mind is his childhood.
Unless he had some mental disease that made him unable of any feeling, it's pretty impossible for the guy to not had felt sadness of his situation, then pain of losing his mother and consecuently anger towards his dad and his family.
Voldemort doesn't recognize others' divine right to exist. (true Sociopath) In the same way that people can't see Thestrals because, such a ugly creature is not given the space to exist in a lot people's minds. Its not even an afterthought.
Was just having the same thought
Harry blinked when the curse was shot at his mom.
His eyes were shut when Cedric dies too, it’s in the book.
Simple, but I like it
Sanchiti Patil yeah but he sees Cedric’s body, hears it, and is VERY aware of it happening. As a baby, he doesn’t understand it as well
If you follow that then Harry understands his mom's death so that would make him able to see the Thestrals
@@landlighterfirestar5550 as a baby he probably was like:why mommy glowing?
Finally, someone acknowledges the fact that Harry had his eyes closed when Cedric dies! The next two lines you didn't read are even more explicit that his eyes were closed: "Terrified of what he was about to see, he opened his stinging eyes. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead."
Yeah. I don't know _how_ Harry could see thestrals after that, even though he didn't see exactly when Cedric died.
Wow. You’re right lol. Plot hole!
I guess he *witnessed* death but didn't exactly *see* it
I'm not sure what happened in his summer holidays after Cedrics death, but I think Harry was so desperate to know how Cedric died that he searched for the truth in Voldemorts mind and there saw the death of Cedric. With the combination of realising his death an the fact Harry was there he "unlocked" the ability to see thestrals. (Just my opinion)
Well as this video explains, JK explained it all afterwards.
maybe 'see' only means 'understand' in this context and has nothing to do with sight. this would also let blind people 'see' death and maybe hear the thestrals.
Ok heres my philosophy:
Harry couldn’t see thestrals after his parents death because it didnt sink in and he couldn’t have remembered it.
With quirrel, voldemort was technically part of quirrel so harry only disabled voldemorts ability to connect to a human body, but he never truly died. Lastly with cedric, harry thought a lot about cedrics death over the summer so i think you can only see thestrals after fully understanding death and letting it sink in deep
If I recall correctly, quirrell's death was a movie only thing. Harry didn't actually see him die in the books because he was unconscious.
@@rubenthemexican5320yea that’s right
@@rubenthemexican5320 There might also have been some kind of seperation between them when Qurrell died.
Didn’t Dumbledore have to tell Harry that Quirrel died? He didn’t understand on his own that he had died? As opposed to Cedric where he watched it and immediately understands Cedric is dead?
Moldy Goldy I’ve been thinking for a while that the movie sort of opens this up as a plot hole because he clearly sees him crumble into nothing in the movie.
Though TBF the book OotP wasn’t out yet.
Buc Whovian very true! I think the easiest way to recall Harry Potter is the movies since you see them, but they’re not technically canon.
I think I recall Dumbledore saying to Harry in the hospital wing that Voldemort left Quirrell for dead, which loosely suggests to me that by the time Dumbledore got there Harry was already passed out and Quirrell hadn't technically died yet.
@@bucwhovian8305
there are plenty of plot holes in the movies.
not the least of which being that they made the basilisk a lizard in the movies which means that a parselmouth shouldn't be able to command it.
what movie did you watch? the basilisk was clearly a snake
I now have a hilarious mental image of Voldemort riding a thestral while the 80s My Little Pony theme song plays.
Pink fluffy unicorns ridden by Voldy
@@Allystabbyface good one
Now I wont be-able to not laugh when I see voldy or the thestrals
Darn you, now you made me think that too
Thanks for putting that image in my head!
(I'm not being sarcastic, I'm bieng sincere. Thank you for that mental image)
Plot Twist: You need to witness _Death,_ the character from Tales of Beedle the Bard. Death uses/used his Invisibility Cloak, so most people don't see him, but maybe just looking in his direction could count. Harry is just very good at looking the wrong way at the right time, and never looks in Death's direction.
Yes, perhaps Death appears when someone dies, but he is invisible to those around, so you would have to look at Death, or look at the person when Death takes tyeir soul or something.
My way of interpreting the Thestral Goggles requirement is that you had to experience the LOSS of death. With Harry's parents he was too young to really bond to them or understand or remember what happened, so while he wishes he'd known them, he's not really feeling the loss from them being forever gone. Same with Querrel and Tom, he saw them as villians, and while he'd taken classes form the first he never really bonded with either, so with their death he didn't feel the loss of death. He wasn't going to think back on them, or miss them.
Cedric was the first death that truly meant something to Harry. It was the death of someone he knew, someone he liked, someone who's absence he would feel afterward. And that is also the sort of thing you don't truly feel in the moment, it doesn't hit right away. It's once you've had time to think, time for thoughts to linger, time to wish the person could come back but they can't...
Emotionally for Harry, the death of his parents, Quirrell, and Tom were all just facts. The death of Cedric was finally the loss of a person.
"Thestral Goggles" sound like the sort of thing you might get with a copy of the Quibbler 😂
Did y'all see the caption on the Thestral Goggles ad?
*they're just your hands. please pay us money.
I think Voldemort could see Thestrals. He’s always struck me as someone who not only dislikes the idea of succumbing to death, but is also secretly terrified of it. I find it hard to imagine someone so fearful of death who doesn’t understand the meaning of its consequence. If anyone understands that someone dying means you’ll never see someone again, Voldemort seems like the person. It’s what he’s so afraid of happening to him. I can easily imagine him realizing what death is as a young boy and it traumatizing him forever. He seems like he was the kind of child who saw thestrals pulling the carriages in his first year when none of his classmates could.
This is a really brilliant interpretation
Wow that’s deep. 👍
I agree completely. I left a similar, but wordier, comment stating basically the same thing. I think he absolutely could see Thestrals.
I agree, and it seems obvious that Voldemort should be able to see thestrals, and it bugs me that J didn't give any good reasons for thinking that Voldemort couldn't see them. He's probably just trying to milk us for comments so that the video performs better lol. That being said, maybe there are a few reasons why Voldemort would not be able to see them. If activating the thestral goggles requires fully understanding the significance of death, then maybe that also means you have to fully appreciate the value of life. Since Voldy is a stone cold serial killer, seeing death wouldn't do anything to him emotionally. Or maybe seeing thestrals requires having a soul, and since Voldy split his soul seven times, he doesn't have enough human spirit left in him to be able to comprehend the sadness of death. Or maybe since Voldy died and then came to life again, thestrals can't see him!!! Ok that last one was a joke, but that would be interesting. All of this is super made up, so it would be easy to argue against it. I think we all deserve to hear J defend his bogus choice.
I like to think Voldemort didn't see them in his first year but read about it in the library, and knew about it then. Until he killed his father he never saw them (if we say just seeing death makes him see them). Also, a second theory is he had saw them since he killed a rabbit as a kid. 🤷♂️
It was beacuse dumbledore Did ask calmly until the movie came out
the apple lol
DID YOU PUT YA NAME IN THE GOBLET OF FIYA, HARRY!!!!
"Or when Cedric dies"
Me, with my face covered in tears, desperately holding onto the belief that Cedric didn't die:
Cedric didn't die. He obviously became a vampire, changed his name to Edward, moved to Forks, Washington, got taken in by a vampire family which then changed his last name to Cullen, and lives his life going through muggle high school every few decades. The story he told Bella about how he became a vampire is a cover up because he's not supposed to expose magic to muggles. OBVIOUSLY.
I told my mom that I said he is not dead he is a vampire in forks washington with his family
Being a lover of both twilight and Harry Potter, I love this
@@bea._.3565 same
Stop denying the truth that he is actually Luna Lovegood after he faked his death he disguised himself as Luna and then cast a memory spell so strong that everyone though Luna had just existed before but she actually did not as she was Cedric
@@edsweet2858 loll😁😁😁
Counter-theory: Death is a being, who created the deathly hallows and comes to collect the dead. Proximity to Death is what allows you to see thestrals (headcanon that they're his minions or pets or something).
Death the being has a strange magical ability or property which is like a warped fidelius charm - until you understand the concept of death and accept that it has happened, you cannot see him. The process of grieving is the equivalent of being told the address by the secret keeper.
Once you know the secret of death, you can then see the thestrals. You would also be able to see the figure of death, except he has an invisibility cloak of his own (he could surely make or find a new one in the thousands/millions of years since Harry's).
Voldemort may be able to see thestrals, if he has grieved before, but I would argue that he was never able to accept the finality of death, hence the creation of horcruxes. He never accepted the concept, he just found ways around it, and therefore wouldn't gain the ability.
Side point, I don't think I know his backstory thoroughly enough to say with certainty, but a childhood loss would certainly explain his crippling aversion to death.
Aisling Rose I love this theory
But Harry did grieved his parents and understood they are finally dead at least after seeing them in the mirror of erised and losing them again.
I really like your theory but this little point, in my opinion, doesn't fit in.
@@Lucy92Hase I'd argue that he grieved for the concept of his parents rather than them as people, because he never knew them and could therefore not truly accept and understand their deaths.
@@aislingrose6140 Ok with this point of view I totally agree with your theory. Thank you for making it clear. :)
Tom Riddle would have been a young teen during the Blitz of WW2, that might have pushed him towards seeking immortality
The answer comes in the distinction between “witness death” and “see death”. To witness an event is to be an (albeit outlying) participant in it, but unable to change things or do anything. But to see an event is just viewing it as a spectator. So yea, Harry doesn’t see the Thestrals until he has succumbed to the guilt of not being able to save Cedrick from his death. Also, I don’t think Voldemort feels guilt for any of the deaths he’s witnessed or executed, so I’d say he couldn’t see the therstrals. Think of Luna and how her mother died, having been a witness to her mother’s death, imagine the guilt she feels.
That makes a lot of sense
It wasn’t Luna’s fault her mother died
Why would Luna feel guilty????
Rob Fab Videos have you watched his video on what actually killed lunas mom (or what lunas mom was trying to do when she died)?
Makes a lot of sense love this comment
I always stood by this:
Harry has experienced SIGNIFICANT trauma in his life. Him not remembering these things, not seeing the thestrals for a while, it all made sense to me. Over the summer Harry was faced with having to process the trauma, to an extent, of seeing Cedric, as it haunted his dreams and he thought about it (if only sparingly).
My son is on book 5 and has his theories. He thinks Harry and Luna are crazy. Harry lost his mind after Cedric died. Lol
haha YES! Books 5-7 are all just in Harry's head after he gets sent to St. Mungos!
gnikaw pleasant LOL i love that!!!
@@SuperCarlinBrothers Even if it is happening inside his head, why should that mean that it is not real. :)
I remember when book 5 came out and my mom got me into reading the whole series and having to speculate what might happen... literature is a different kind of magic for everyone to enjoy including us muggles
@@michalinaknapik9240 wanted to say it myself lol
Me before watching : Finally a question I needed answered
Me after Seamus cameos : WAIT WHAT??!! SEAMUS??!!
Personally I've always seen "Thestral Vision" as being linked to the grieving process. As in, someone has to really, seriously feel the impact of a death and go through mourning and/or the stages of grief from it. Like you said, baby Harry wouldn't have remembered or internalized his parents' death enough to grieve for them. Sure, he wishes they could be around, but it isn't the same as remembering and experiencing the loss. And with Quirrel and the journal horcrux, he was literally trying to put a stop to the most evil wizard in the world, so there'd be zero reason to mourn that. But witnessing Cedric's death REALLY got to him, and it is the first official time he's experienced such an intense mourning process - probably because he partially blamed himself for Cedric's death.
Likewise, Tom Riddle is a remorseless psychopath that has ZERO reason to mourn the loss of people he's killed, so I do agree that he may not have been able to see them. And regarding Luna Lovegood, I've read theories that her witnessing the death of her mother drove her half mad with grief, which is why she's so flighty and detached, and why she's been able to see Thestrals for much longer. Not sure if this has been confirmed at all, but it's an interesting thought!
Good theory!
Good theory, but I’m still confused as to why Harry couldn’t see the thestrals on the carriage ride from Hogwarts at the end of Goblet of Fire if Cedric’s death was still so fresh in his mind. He only notices them when he returns to Hogwarts the next year.
@@savannahames6270 Because the grieving process takes longer. Ever heared of the five stages? Only the last one is accepting. This process CAN take months or even years. it will take certainly more then a couple of days or weeks.
His parents: Harry was simply too young to actually comprehend what happened.
Quirrell: Correct me if I'm wrong, but Harry never really saw Quirrell die, or at least didn't believed it until Dumbledore told Harry that Quirrell died after Voldemort left him.
Cedric: Yes, Harry saw Cedric die, but it sometimes takes time to accept death. Harry probably couldn't believe that Cedric had really died. He was probably still in a state of shock at the end of Goblet of Fire. We see something like this when Harry refuses to believe that Sirius has truly left the world at the end of Order of the Phoenix.
Agreed
But doesn’t that mean he accepted Sirius’s death before he accepted Cedric’s? Because he had exactly same number of days untill he goes back home from School after both events. And he didn’t comprehend Cedric’s death after weeks before next term but he had made up his mind at the death of his God father ?
When an author gives a long list of different reasons to explain why they made an exception to their own rules... it’s called a plothole.
Manveer Gill you are correct but Something about Quirrell is wrong (Btw your explantion is amazing sorry I have to correct this) The book version when Harry sees Quirrell die he never sees Quirrell die because When he touched Quirrell he inflicted pain onto himself through his scar there fore passing out (Again you did a reallly good job explaining this Manveer Gill)
But what about the Basilisk. He saw that die?
Well harry dosnt have any memories of his mother so while he is sad about his mother's death he really didnt know her but he knew Cedric which could have made the death more impactful and according to the books he actually didnt see quarrel die he passed out
So then why didn't he see the thestrals at the end of GoF?
@@angusmaxim3450 because you have to process the death of someone and accept it. I swear they go over this in the movies and/or books.
@@angusmaxim3450 he was overwhelmed with the grief, it is the act of acknowledging I witnessed death, and not a death occurred.
Exactly what I thought when I saw the notification for this video
But they have to SEE death, not remember. Even as a baby he SAW death
I feel this is an easy enough theory to figure out honestly. The Thestrals couldn’t been seen by Harry from Qurriel and his parent’s death since they didn’t affect him emotionally. Yes, his parent’s death did affect him but he was too young to remember them so it didn’t affect him emotionally. Cedric was the first death he’d seen that affected him, which is why Luna could see the Thestrals, she was old enough to remember her mother and old enough for it to affect her emotionally. The reason why he couldn’t see them at the end of The Goblet of Fire was because Cedric’s death was so fresh in his mind that he hadn’t had a chance to process it
"J.K Rowling said in an interview she always knew what was pulling the carriage", given she also said she knew Nagini was a woman before even starting to write philosopher's stone, let me doubt
I hate that they have so much faith in her. Like, you know she can just lie, right? She's been lying for a while
@@sofig1237 Yeah, and it's kind of not her fault. She's just the type of writer that "writes from beginning to end" instead of from "end to beginning".
There's no problem in this, except that if the series gets longer, it's very easy to create plotholes due to how your view changes as your story progresses without a clear ending already set.
i dont see why she thinks she has to have every little detail planned out. to me, it more shows the finesse of a writer if they can add unplanned details later on in the story that totally work!
As a writer myself, you'd be surprised how many tiny details we know that don't make it into the actual writing. I fully believe her when she says she knew things. And if she's just adding new things, that's great too! But everyone wants to complain and tell her how to write HER story and HER world.
@@bookwormkiara5468 for a standard author I'd have no doubt about her knowing about Thestrals, that's indeed a small detail you can have in mind from the start, I'm only saying the precedent in her interview doesn't lead me to trust her and the global inconsistencies in her books make me think she's not really a prothinker kind of author
You have the requirements to see thestrals all wrong. You have to have witnessed, comprehended, and grieved death.
Harry was too young to comprehend his parents death at the time. He did not grieve Quirrel or Riddles diary. At the end of Harry's 4th year he had not yet fully processed and grieved Cedric's death
This one is perfect 👌
Andrew I. Crocker they covered that though because they discussed what Rowling said about Harry needing to understand and grieved Cedric.
This one is a plothole. I don’t care what reasoning “justifies it”. It’s really Rowling saying no because this, no because that, no because reasons. Rowling really should have had Hermoine give a better definition or Hagrad correct her imperfect explanation.
LilacDoe *Hagrid ;-)
I'm remembering an explanation about how you see Thestrals being like: You need to understand death. I took that as you need to go through all the stages of grieving and processing what death is.
A roommate of mine passed away during the initial lockdown, and I found him. Seeing his face for the first time that day... seeing death... finally made me understand the difference. It's hard to describe... but I've thought a lot about this ... but I felt like if Thestrals were real, I'd def see them now. Knowing about death and see someone you know pass are much more different than I could have ever imagined.
I'm so sorry for your loss. That must have been shocking and heartwrenching. I hope you're doing well and have found the support you need to process it.
I’m so sorry for you loss
The way I've always understood it is that you have to see, understand and process death. Harry as a baby can't understand nor process death, and by the time he was old enough to understand it, he had no connection to it anymore.
Quirrell died, but when Harry asked Dumbledore if Voldemort was actually gone or if he could come back, Dumbledore sais that Voldemort is still out there and making a plan to come back. Thus Harry not interpreting what happened as Voldemort dying, and because he was linked to Quirrell, it has the same effect for him.
Tom Riddle wasn't alive in the Chamber of Secrets. Harry killed a magical image of Tom. Not a real person.
At the end of Goblet, Harry was still processing, and hadn't come to terms with Cedric's death yet, so he couldn't see the Thestrals yet, but once he had some time over the summer to think about it, process it, and come to terms with the fact that he would never see Cedric again, he was then able to put on his Thestral Goggles. (Just like you and Jo said.)
My patronus is a Thestral, according to Pottermore. Does that mean I wouldn't be able to see my patronus unless I've witnessed death?
Whoa.... Deep.
It's not a real thestral, it's a patronos that looks like a thestral.
You would since it’s a spell and not a real thestral
but what if u wanted to go threw with becoming animages. patroness n animages forms go hand n hand for the most part
No, because a Patronus is solely a force that feeds off your happiness. Whatever form it takes simply depends on your values.
To quote Hermoine: "Geez, Harry your eyesight really is awful"
His mother-he was a baby, didn’t understand death
Quirrell-Never actually saw him die, he was left to die after Harry passed out
Riddle-Not actually a person, just a Horcrux vision thingy
Cedric-This is the only one that holds weight, JK Rowling said it needed to process but tbh I just think she hadn’t thought of the thestrals yet.
" *Do* *you* *think* *old* *Voldy* *could* *see* *them* *spooky* *horses?* " -Johnathon Carlin, 2020
I saw an interview with JKR saying that the reason why harry couldn’t see thestrals at the end of the goblet of fire was because she didnt want to open up a new mystery just as the book would finish, so she waited until the next book to start describing them
and changed her mind in the other interview to it being related to processing the death. its almost like she didnt know they were there and is justifying the plot hole post hoc
I just want to know if someone who hasn’t seen death can see Ben’s patronus (as it’s a thestral).
Who's Ben?
I think you would see the outline of the thestral but you wouldn't be able to see the details of it
Great question
You're out here asking the real question
Well its not a thestral but a patronus in the form of a thestral so everyone can see it surely?
A cameo by Seamus!
I was wondering if anyone else noticed! 😅
two of them actually- he is also there in the chamber of secrets deguised as young Tom Riddle
Wonder if that means we're gonna get another collab very soon xD
Keep in mind that the memory Harry has of his parents dying, when he encounters Dementors, might not even be his. That could be the piece of Voldemort's soul reliving it's worst memory.
what memory would it be then?
@Connor DoubleYou That just blew my mind and it makes total sense. I mean Luna has suffered similar trauma and is not affected by the dementors as much. Neville has severe trauma too. But Harry and the piece of Voldemorts soul both share the memory of the night when harrys parents died so in seeing the dementors and reliving that moment they have something in common. Maybe thats when the souls are closest to each other and harry not only feels his own fears but the deeple troubled soul of voldemort, unaware of love and deeply afraid of death and that makes him faint
@@snorf525 the night he got blown up
The image of Voldemort discovering he cannot see theatrals while Harry can, is incredibly hilarious to me. 😂
THE POWER THE DARK LORD KNOWS NOT!
@@FraternityOfShadows that has got to be the shittest super power ever 🤣
Why does Ollivander not use thestral hair in his wands? It seems like it's a lot easier to find than heartstrings from dragons.
i suppose its not as easy to find unless you have seen death as otherwise the thestrals are invisible and thus extremely difficult to find
I think since probably one can't see thestrals they can't see their hair too so they can't use it as a wand core🤔
I remember reading this. They have a number of different wand core materials in the wizarding world. For example, in the USA they also use horned serpent horn and rougarou hair. Fleur's wand has the hair of a veela. But a lot of these cores are more volatile and temperamental. Look at the Elder wand for example. Just having ANOTHER wand you own tugged from your hand changes it's alignment to that person rather than you, meaning that it's constantly changing allegiances. Phoenix feather, dragon heartstring and unicorn hair are just a lot more stable and reliable.
@@robertgronewold3326 this point is true too
Dragon products don't seem particularly hard to get in the HP universe, everyone seems to have dragon leather stuff for instance. Thestrals would be easier than phoenix though (the rarest core out of the 3 he uses), but perhaps Ollivander can't see them, or doesn't want to create a wand from a creature that is considered a "bad omen".
It seems more about trauma than anything else. Cedric was the only death Harry witnessed that traumatized him. Trauma tends to kill naiveté. Everyone else is naive to the Thestrals but Harry and Luna are both hurt from "witnessing death." And about that terminology, we tend to beat around the bush when it comes to talking about deaths that have scarred us. I think "witnessing death" is more of a nice term for the PTSD you have from seeing a friend/family member die. People get upset when they take things at face value and then find plotholes. No, it's that you misunderstood, not that there is a plothole. And it's not that he saw his parents' deaths, he was a baby and obviously doesn't remember it so he doesn't really feel their deaths. He feels their absence when he's old enough to understand, but he doesn't feel the trauma of seeing them die.
Before i watch it’s because harry didn’t understand death when his parents died
Edit: also he couldn’t see them till fifth year because he mustn’t have thought about it a lot until the summer
And Quirrel?
This was my answer. Also, he has to care about the person in some fashion. He didn't care about Quirrel or Tom Riddle, but Cedric was becoming a friend. Seeing him die meant something.
Or maybe because J.K. Rowling hadn't thought about putting Thestral's into her story until book 5.
@@skizzit in the book harry was unconscious before quirrel died i think
Or because he doesn't remember it. Riddle was basically a ghost and Quirrel was tied to a bassically ghost
I always thought that the reason was because the death had to effect the *_perception_* of the individual on some profound level (like, cognitive changes). This would explain Harry's lack of seeing them, because none of the previous deaths actually effected him profoundly, the way losing Cedric (a friend, rival, someone he knew, someone he HELPED to die by offering him a tie) did. His parents, he was just too young to be impacted by, since he didn't have the cognitive ability to perceive death yet. Ergo (for me at least), the Thestrals are interacting with people's perceptions re: death and life.
Once death becomes a genuine, perceived fate/reality, the Thestrals become tangible. It took Harry time to see them after Cedric's death because perception takes time to form/shift (hence why traumas take years to uncover/deal with).
*Edit for spelling/clarity. :)
Parents death: 1.we don't know if he saw it. Not in the book, only the flash of light. 2.he woulden't be able to comprehend death as a infant.
Quirls death: Never dies in front of him in the books. Harry looses conciousness. Quirl dosent turn to dust in the books, he just get burn blisters from Harrys touch.
Luna witnessed her moms death one on one and she was older.
To the whole removing memory I have another question
Could someone alter your memories to make it so that you think you saw a death when really haven’t
Sage Deeley I’d argue that someone could technically do that, but I doubt that it would lead to the charmed person being able to see Thestrals. I mean, given what we know about love potions and love charms, magic can’t truly replicate emotions. A person under a love spell may act infatuated, but it’s just a hollow shell of the real thing. It’s probably the same thing with grief. So, a person whose memory has been tampered with may have the false memories of *seeing* a death, but without the real *feeling* of having processed and come to terms with it, they couldn’t see the Thestrals.
Mario I think it depends on whether their belief is naturally occurring or not. So, if a person genuinely believed a loved one to be dead- say that they went missing or something- and had to live through the grief of it, then they would be able to see Thestrals. But, if someone tampered with their memories, then no. Because, I mean, if you made someone *think* that a loved one died, you’d have to give them so many other memories. Memories of a funeral, memories of crying, memories of getting sad at random little things that remind you of them. And everyone is different! There’s no way that a person could just backfill in a complex emotional process like that. So even if the person thinks that their loved one is dead, the grieving process hasn’t really been completed, so no Thestrals. Maybe if the person lived with the false memories for a long time and was then able to grieve.
I think the only situation that would work is if you didn’t tamper with a person’s past memories. Like if you just made them think that their loved one had *just* died very recently, and then left them to grieve on their own for a while. I could see that working, because your reaction is still basically your own.
Well voldemort made his uncle think he had killed tom riddles family(the muggles) by altering his memories.
Voldemort made Morfin and Hokey think that they killed people so it probably would be possible to think they have simply seen death.
For the question of whether Harry “saw death” when his parents were killed, there’s this thing called Infant Amnesia. It’s basically means that you have memories of your being and infant but you cannot recall them from your memory. Therefore it’s very possible that he didn’t “see death” when Voldemort killed his parents due to Infant Amnesia
My theory is that, he doesnt understand death is that he didnt knew much about wizarding world neither the killing spell. He pretty much was confused about everything until Barty Crouch jr or Moody, who teaches the killing spell.. thus knowing how someone dies, he is pretty sure knows why Cedric died and others.
THE SOLUTION: Any memory brought out by the dementors is actually Voldemort's memory. Which is also why the dementors love Harry. He's got the most guilty human of all time attached to him.
I think to see the Thestrals, you have to mourn for the person's death. Until the mourning, you can't see them.
All I know is that if Voldy couldn't see them, I so wish we'd seen them attacking him during the battle. Just suddenly flipped over by an invisible stampede, bamboozled, trampled by air
My theory: You don't see a thestral once you witness death. you see one when you see the death but also experience GRIEF or MOURNING.
So Voldy can't
But Harry mourns his parents
@@arty217 no he mourns the loss of the IDEA of his parents basically because it happened when he was so young he cant remember them & theyre strangers 2 him so while he understands that its tragic that hes an orphan he cant miss wat he never had so 2 speak & all he knew b4 hogwarts was life @ the dursleys so he cant miss the life he had w/ his parents as he cant remember it
The diary is actually half of his soul. Every time he splits his soul, it gets split in half.
@Mason Jordan Who said you can only get 7? Voldemort only wanted 7 because 7 is a very magically powerful number (Whatever that means). Or another theory, what if pieces of soul so small can't sustain a body?
I don’t think a soul is a quantifiable amount. If you split your soul, it’s still the same amount of soul in each object, your soul is just in multiple places and extremely broken.
@Mason Jordan Voldemort had 8 pieces of his soul because he ACCIDENTALLY made an extra one.
thank you for also saying that
I think they say each Horcrux is just a “fragment” of the soul, not half of what ever is left….
“THESTRAL GOGGLESSSSSSS”
(*they are just your hands but pay us money anyways*)
The explanation is that Rowling didn't think of the Thestrals until she'd already published Goblet of Fire, lol
Ah yes, another intellectual
So true
Nope. She thought it’d be awkward if she ended the book like that
every plot hole she creates. but she cannot comprehend creating plot holes i guess
@@bhargavchandramouli1633 that's such a lie my dude. she does this every time there's a new plot hole. "I knew what moved the carriages from the beginning" she completely insane is she's trying to tell me none of her plot holes were just because she had things to make plot holes
It's really interesting to think about Voldemort's ability to see the Thestrals and imo if appreciating/understanding death is the criteria he absolutely does not see them.
isn't it obvious? JKR hadn't thought about them when she wrote GoF, she just came upo with them when she wrote OotF, simple as that.
yeah, she retconned it with that comment where she states that harry has to "assimialte" the death he just saw...
but lets be honest, we all know she hadn't imagined them yet.
Yes! Thank you! Been scrolling for a while looking for this one
I have an elegant solution for you that shows it was planned out: Harry is a horcrux. Remember how those memories are pulled out from dementors who are drawn to him in book three? They're attracted to Voldemort's guilt. The memory of his parents death isn't Harry's memory of trauma-- it's Voldemort's memory of defeat. So Harry couldn't see the thestrals until he was there with Cedric when he died and he could comprehend that death that occurred right in front of him.
Rachel Hansen except he literally murdered both Quirrel AND Tom Riddle, both to save the lives of other people and help others. In PoA, he spends half the book trying to save other people’s lives, even Buckbeak, so it’s not like Harry doesn’t understand death and hasn’t seen people die or been in their presence, and like it was quoted, he didn’t even SEE or WATCH Cedric die, it quite literally is VERY inconsistent.
So since literally every physical detail ever presented in the story up until that point completely contradicts the quote “someone who has SEEN death”, it makes sense that she is just lying and has decided to make it psychologically based instead of WHAT SHE ACTUALLY WROTE AND THE NUMEROUS EXAMPLES.
@@rachelhansen2417 If she'd really had it planned from the outset, she would've made that distinction clear when she was explaining what thestrals were.
It's Just my opinion but I like to believe that this inconsistency is derived from the fact that the character that tells us you need to see death is just incorrect.
And also it says I think in SS, that Harry “didn’t remember his parents at all”. I think that also has to with it. As a baby you wouldn’t REMEMBER seeing your parents dying in front of you. ;)
Good point. But what of Professor Quirrel? Did he not die when Harry defeated him/Voldy at the end of Sorcerer's Stone? And I don't suppose a memory in a diary counts as seeing someone die? (i.e. Tom Riddle in Chamber of Secrets) But he did CLEARLY see Cedric die in front of him.
@@CeltycSparrow Harry passed out before Quirrel died completely (at least in the books)
3009 ohh I didn’t know /forgot he did. Thanks
It's not about seeing death, it's about understanding death and what it is all about.
exactly
If it's the act of losing someone, that would mean a lot more people in the class would be able to see Therstals, especially Umbridge at here age. There are few people who do not know someone who have died and having to come to terms with that, even at 15. Especially with ages of wizards compared to humans you'll probably have great grand parents, even great great grand parents around when you'd be born, who would be very close to death all your childhood.
With that point, I wonder if the therstals, once kind of manifesting themselves upon that emotional death, become sort of guardian of support for that person, only appearing when in need like Phox, the phoenix or the griffindor sword?
Normies: Thestrals
Me, an intellectual: Death horsies
So Voldy can't
Normies: Elder Wand
Intellectuals: *Death Stick*
bony ponies
"He *appreciates* death" yes Harry was like, hmmm death.
Feel like you guys are amazing . Anybody else would’ve answered this with a short. But you guys kill it, and I love it! THANK YOU
Is no one gonna talk about how Seamus looked so confused at the start
Eyyy, I wasn't the only one! (high-fives)
Imo: he has to be conscious of the death. At a certain age humans just wipe their memory basically
Also I say quirrel didn't count. Maybe he was already dead?
No, he did die. Dumbledore said so.
@@saulcuthbertson7248 yes but quirrel being a horcrux is up for debate. And he's it's probably a plothole but maybe since Voldy and Qiirrelly were one person, Voldy being alive prevents the death?
It was beacuse dumbledore asked calmly until the movie came out
@@IslarfPokemon no, it is not up for debate.
He is not.
@@saulcuthbertson7248 wasnt harry already unconscious before quirrel died?
Here’s the thing. I think Voldemort would be able to see the thestrals. You need to be able to appreciate the death that you witnessed, and considering that Voldemort went out of his way to research dark magic and went ahead to (intentionally) create 7 horcruxes, a method of avoiding death, he is intimate with the subject of death, so he knows what he’s doing when he ends a life.
2:45 wow its almost like jk didnt think of them before book 5
Harry's a horcrux. Dementors brought out Voldy's memory of his own defeat. Harry himself doesn't remember and so he can't see them. Case closed, it was well thought through by Rowling. (This is also why dementors love Harry but didn't affect Sirius as much in Azkaban).
@@rachelhansen2417 Occam's razor states the the simplest solution is most likely the right one. It's much more likely that JK just didn't think of Thestrals before that point.
@@dragonlord1935 this theory explains why dementors love harry, how he hears that memory, and why he can't see thestrals. I'd say Occam's Razor is on my side.
@@rachelhansen2417 Not exactly. The Dementors didn't bring out the memory of Voldy's defeat through the horcrux. They brought out the memory of Lily sacrificing herself. This is further proven by how Harry recalls a woman's scream instead of a sensation of pain (what he WOULD recall if that memory belonged to the horcrux). You're also making a HUGE assumption here by saying that the horcrux inside Harry somehow holds Voldy's memories when in the canon story the only thing we see that comes close is Harry's mental connection to Voldemort's emotions and his current actions.
A lot of the points you bring up CAN be explained but only if you stretch the canon material quite a bit. It's more fair to assume that JK simply didn't think of Thestrals before then.
@@dragonlord1935 those are interesting points! I hope you don't mind a friendly debate. I'd also like to point you to the diary. Young Tom Riddle shows Harry some of his own memories, showing that a horcrux is capable of remembering events. Additionally, for anyone, memory of trauma isn't limited to the pain of a singular moment, but also the circumstances which lead to it. Reliving the moments that lead to defeat would be traumatic for Voldemort, and would thus be relived in the presence of dementors. Additionally, a baby is simply incapable of storing such a memory. I also recall that in the seventh book, Harry full on relives these exact moments from the perspective of Voldemort, with detailed visuals.
When you go back to watch all these videos and dieing when you realize all their theories make SO much sence
Video - " Harry did not witness death in the Chamber of Secrets because he ONLY killed a part of Tom Riddles soul "
* Confused Basilisk noises *
It's death of a person, not animal
Seems like it's less seeing death and more having a certain level of maturity and empathy of which only seeing death, but not always seeing death, could bring
The line from the interview "appreciate fully that you will never see that person again" is what sticks out to me. Throughout the series, Harry is constantly convinced that there might be some way to be reunited with his parents, from the mirror to the time turner misunderstanding. With Quirrel, I think it just wasn't someone Harry cared about in any sense. The witnessed death seems to also require a sense of loss to accompany it.
And in that regards, it's hard to think of anyone Voldemort might miss. Maybe Snape?
Had Voldemort been present for the death of Dumbledore, that might have stuck with him also.
Maybe Nagini would count?
Regardless, all these deaths happen near the end of his life. So Riddle probably wouldn't have ever seen a Thestral.
Maybe what happens in the graveyard, with the specters, subconsciously gives him a false hope that lasts until his isolation with the Dursleys..?
Before watching the video, I'd said you must have been conscience of death.
Lily's death: He was 1 year old, so non conscient of the death.
Quirrel's death: He actually never see it. He passed out before (not like in the movie ^^).
Diary's death: That's not a death....
Cedric's death: He took time for he to pass through the death acceptation ^^
I dont think that one simply loses the ability to see thestrals, like when someone close dies, we do mourn but then sadly we learn to live with it. We dont think about it all the time but that void is definitely there, and so the thestrals too willalways be there.
Similar to how we can bring anyone who passed away back to life, thestals dont disappear, as the experience of a death closeby has willed the appearance of it.
thx for clearing things un officially it helped I've been wondering about this for a long time
Or maybe Harry's thestral goggles didn't trigger because of Cedric at all since he didn't see him die. What if it triggered because of his mother's appearance in the graveyard? Think about it. Harry saw his mother die but he couldn't see the thestrals because he couldn't understand what he had lost. But in the graveyard he saw her like a living person unlike in pictures (ghostlike but yeah). She talked to him. So it was later that year that he fully appreciated what he had lost and she was never going to speak to him ever again. And that triggered his thestral goggle power.
Last time I was this early the Thestrals didn’t even start pulling their carriages
Caroline DiSalvatore technically your on time not early
Last time I was this late I had to share a carriage with Looney Lovegood.
@@darthsawlex8257 last time I was this late I was petrified and stuck under an invisibility cloak
After Cedric's death he was in a state of shock up to the end of the school year. He spoke to nobody about it, heard bits and pieces in the hospital wing. He was just carrying on without fully realising what had happened, especially since there was a more stressful thing bothering him : Goldy is back. It is only during the summer holidays with all the horrible nightmares and Harry's lonely moments that the death of Cedric could really sink in. of course the dementor attack sped up the process
Before this video starts: Witnessing death doesn’t have to mean having seen death: it could mean professing to others the death of someone. Harry never had to remind anyone he was an orphan, and while he was sad to not have parents no one had to be reminded. When Harry began professing to others that Cedric had died, he had become a Witness unto the Death of a person. He was ingrained in the reality of what the death of someone meant
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Seriously, i have something to say, so Listen!
We, as a community, need to Tweet towards J.K.Rowling
that she should allow the Copyright for Harry Potter
to be losened a bit.
Cause we need some Sort of Reboot,
as almost all books are Lost in Adaptation.
The movies just do not represent the franchise right;
evidend by Dobby alone. If you know what i mean...
And even if we wouldnt need a reboot,
the creativity of the fans is still limited too much,
if you get what i mean!
Like it is, no one can give us what we need and/or want:
A lot people want a Series about the 4 Founders!
A lot understand how lost in Adaptation all the books
are and want all the Movies remade, maybe as a Cartoon,
maybe not.
And lastly, a lot of people love the idea
of a ‚All generation at once’-Cartoon, as
the AMV above shows. Isnt it epic?
These 3 things should ALL come to fruition,
in my opinion. Not to mention at least 1!!
Currently, the franchise is limited too much...
Fans should be allowed to make Animations
about Hogwarts and all ist generations and
Magical secrets.
If you agree the creativity is restrained too harshly,
tweet to Rowling! And also discuss!
And yeah, i know Rowling gets Tweets about a
whole other subject nowadays, but lets
get away from that for a second, to help
the Harry Potter Franchise, ok?!
You know what I just asked myself: if Tom Riddle from the diary in the Chamber of Secrets would’ve managed to get his corporeal form back, would there basically be two Voldemorts? Because if he doesn’t feel if a piece of his soul is destroyed, how would he know if one piece managed to get a body back? And much more importantly: would they like team up, with the younger one bring older Voldi‘s sidekick? 😅
i kinda think there would be 2 voldemorts at same time and that they wouldnt team up since voldemort seems like someone who isnt willing to share all that power
Honestly I think the younger version would have killed the older one because he would have seen him as a disgrace to his name and wouldn't want something like that to have his name
Witnessing his parents was him being too young to understand death. Witnessing Quirrell and Tom Riddle was incomplete death.
I love that theory at the end with Voldemort's potential inability to see the Thestrals. It absolutely makes sense.
He couldn’t see them before because as a baby you don’t remember anything so he clearly couldn’t remember seeing his parents die
Exactly! To add to this: the memories we hear are that of Voldemort's horcrux inside of him. The dementors are drawn to his guilt and pull out his worst memory--of his own defeat.
Agreed, should have had it be a theme where no one believed him except Luna, good way to have her be more important.
0:30 Loooool That guys face😂😂😂😂😂😂
best comment
My theory: Harry actually could see thestrals, if not after death of parents, then at least after death of Quirell. Reason Harry didn't actually seen them is Dumbledore's overprotection! D. could easily enchant Harry to ignore those (to make him less different than he already was perceived by other pupils). Also all those distraction spells that was used in Deathly Hallows are perfect reason why Harry didn't noticed thestrals. Also D. could easily cast disillusion charm on thestrals themselves. Thestrals have good sense of direction, the do not need to see themselves or other thestrals to pull carriages. Or that could be done by Hagrid (who knows what magic Hagrid actually could be able to cast, especially when it involves magical creatures).
Reason why Dumbledore or Hagrid didn't do the same trick at the beginning of the Order of Phoenix: Dumbledore avoided Harry at all cost that year, and Hagrid wasn't available (he was tracking Giants). So Harry finally gets to see what was hidden from him 5 years.
Yaroslav Panych that's actually an awesome theory
Ooh intersesting! Makes great sense!
But Luna saw them since she was in school. She would have mentioned it, if she also saw them for the first time. If there was an disillusion charm on them, nobody should have been able to see them.
Simone G. But Luna and her father are well versed in the weird, so she must have just not bothered to mention them. Or she did, no one believed her and she just dropped the subject after a while.
Did he just say ‘the towel section down below’?
4:58
Depressed Guy yes
Me: *reads title*
Also me: ...because you have to process death and that takes time.
Guess who was right, ladies?😎
"eyes clearly closed" i laughted too loud with that edit HAHAHAHAHA
No, Harry is taken from Quirrell by Dumbledore before Quirrell dies so Harry never saw Quirrell die.
I honestly don't trust JK's "I've always known" and other explanations for things anymore
Yeah she wrote it but she has the bad tendency to change things and come up with explanations to fit whatever is needed. I'd rather just know she made a mistake as is natural in such a long story and we move on
at some point you need to let your story go
and then off course there's the dumbledore is gay except they don't show it in ANY of the franchise ever thing, make a video about that please SCBros
Astrid De Meester it was hinted at in the books and in crimes of grindelwald “we where closer then brothers”
I'm commenting this everywhere! The simplest solution that shows it was planned required the knowledge that Harry is a Horcrux. He doesn't remember his parents deaths and can't see thestrals. But Voldemort inside of him does, so that memory of his defeat comes out when dementors are near. Also why the dementors love Harry. @supercarlinbrothers I hope you see some of these comments.
@@chendror872 That aint representation though. Some tweets and vague hints are not representation.
@@Bluebirdscribbles I didn't say she did it right
@@chendror872 Soldiers often use the term "We were closer than brothers" as well with that rarely being code for "we were gay"
Well, I imagined that he couldn't see the thestrals at the end because he had his eyes closed, but he could after BECAUSE he relived the memory, but through Voldemort's eyes, and scince he was there at the time, he had technically witnessed the death he didnt see and could now properly see thestrals.
Just me?
Ok
Ravenclaw /animator But what about at the BEGINNING of Goblet of Fire, when the old man died?
@@nyxis_ Harry never actually sees him die he just hears Voldemort say avada kedavra and sees a flash of green light he never sees him drop dead or anything and in order to see Thestrals you just don't have to witness death but you have to accept and grieve that the person will never come back at the end of Goblet of Fire Harry isn't ready to accept the fact that Cedric is gone but at the beginning of Order of Phoenix he knows that Cedric now will never come back oh and thats why Harry can't see Thestrals when he literally kills Quirrell or when his parents die Luna can because she accepted death and the fact her mother was never coming back
tHeOrY: to see a thestral you have to not only witness, but PROCESS death, maybe during his time at the dursleys he proccesed the fact that cedric had died.
Your theory is actually true😉
When J.K.Rowling was asked, why Harry couldn’t see the Thestrals before, she answered:
_[…] However, he had to witness Cedric's murder, and this finally made the Thestrals visible to him. So why couldn't he see them on the way back to the train station? Well, I didn't want to introduce a new mystery at the very end of the fourth book, which would then have remained unsolved for a very long time. So I decided that Harry wouldn't be able to see the thestrals until he got over the initial shock and really realized what death meant (i.e., when he realized in full that Cedric was gone forever and never coming back - and that takes time at any age). After two months away from school, constantly thinking about the murder and reliving it in nightmares, the thestrals have taken shape and form, and he sees them quite clearly._
Finally I’ve asked this for years!!!!
I think i comes down to being able to remember the event of witnessing death and so yes i believe you could lose the ability to see thestrals if a memory charm is put on you. Also i wonder if you would have to be a wizard to see them, like if a muggle had seen death, could they?
I wonder if Harry's eyesight was so poor as a baby he couldn't "see" when his mum died? Even if he had glasses at a year old, Lily was putting him to bed or he was already asleep in his crib, so no glasses= poor vision= unable to see?
But if he saw Frank get killed in his dream...
Remember Harry thought of it as a dream at first, while I doubt Rowling had thought of Thestrals before OotP, It's possible Harry didn't think the person had died yet thus hadn't accepted they died.
Maybe you have to see the person dying in real life/have to be there when it happens. Otherwise all the kids who watch things like horror movies would still be able to see thestrals even though they’ve only seen death on a screen and not in person.
I believe that “witness death” is witness “death” the character take the life force from the vessel after it’s dead but that just my opinion. I get that you don’t “see” this happen but it makes sense to me
With Hogwarts Legacy having Thestrals, I almost think that the method of death can play a part in seeing Thestrals. Spoiler for Hogwarts Legacy even though A) it's at the start of the game and B) in the grand scheme of things is never really brought up again, our character witnesses a guy get munched by a dragon. Comparatively, Harry witnessed Cedric get blasted by the Avada Kedavera curse. Our character saw Thestrals instantly, Harry saw his over time. This is probably morbid, but it may be that the brutality of a death also ties into seeing Thestrals. Avada Kedavera is instant and stainless, Cedric looks like he could've been petrified by the basilisk instead of murdered, compared to being turned into dragon food, definitely the opposite of the killing curse.
"She always knew what was pulling the carriages."
Mmmmmhmmmmmm. Sure. Sure she did lol.