lmao, I can't lie tho. The MAA nerf annoys me. I'm not level headed like Shuffle, every time now I use retribution and don't get block I get an angry feeling in my chest. He was too strong, for too long. Now I miss it.
Took the community over half a year to finally realize that. She's been poop tier since her release but people overvalue the buffs. She desperately needs a buff.
Bonnie's heal needs to lose the bleed requirement: Heal small on normal targets, heal more when purging a bleed effect. Bam! Viable solo-healer and keeps the cauterizing wounds theme 😉
Here's a suggestion how this could work: Cauterize: Uses: 3 Target: Heal 15% Target: Heal for 33% of remaining 🔴 Target: Remove 🔴 --- Cauterize+: Uses: 3 Target: Heal 20% Target: Heal for 50% of remaining 🔴 Target: Remove 🔴 Might increase uses to 4 and limit this version to Survivor to make this now rather pointless path work as her dedicated healer-role.
If they ever update Lepers paths I’d love to see if the paths had like different negative tokens. Like poet would be much more consistent as a support/tank if he got weaken tokens instead of blinds.
That would make his chop a more consistent dmg move, that wouldn't make any sense unless they nerfed the hell out of his damage, wich already is not great
Monarch should get consistently daze then: but also change his abilities so that they are powerful enough to justify the fact he is going last all the time and risks heavily to get stunned
Oh boy I can't wait to see how my favorite hero Hellion ranks! This guy seems to have a good head on his shoulders and will rate her S tier like she deserves! :(
Dunno how GR managed to be over Hellion tbh. The arguments regarding Ravager solely carrying Hellion are true but she will be a powerhouse until we get a complete rework which is not anywhere in sight judging from the dev talks.
Even after speed token removal from HWM, take aim is still busted. Ability to generate 2 crit tokens instantly, that can turn tide of battle at anytime without any drawbacks, is insanely good. But I do agree with this tier list, mainly the crusader is powerhouse right now.
Crusader is hardly a powerhouse, he’s just a true Jack of all trades unlike most other hero’s. His damage isn’t top, tanking isn’t top, healing is only okay, better at off healing when needed. Stress heal is okay, other than that his paths are kinda meh, a few skill change but otherwise he plays the same. He isn’t fighting for a top spot in any role on any team, he’s not weak just not amazing at anything specific. Personally I’d like to see his paths get buffed to further spec him into tanking, healing or damage.
In my honest opinion Jester is in the exact spot where most of the heroes should be. All of his skills are useful, all his paths (except wanderer) are good and viable and he fits in multiple roles well (not something every character needs to do but its a bonus none the less). Also in my opinion the finale damage is very satisfying as is and should stay the same if only for the satisfaction of just seeing cherubs evaporate. If it were to be nerfed it would no longer feel as good as it does which would be a great shame imo. But I must admit that encore is really good and possibly the best move in the game due to action economy, but it is, just like Jester, only as strong as your team. That means it encourages good teambuilding in a sense and really encourages creativity (unless youre just hitting double plague grenade). So in my opinion Jester should stay as he is. The only thing I would change if anything id rework virutoso and give the man 8 speed basekit to push him over the sprawl trinket usage threshold. Sincerely the #1 Jester fan.
Same thing for flagellant, honestly. Except 1 or 2 of his skills that are very situational, he's mainly top tier because all his skills are good and all his paths are viable which makes him very versatile.
I've honestly thought that Soloist and Virtuoso should switch speeds, so Soloist gets the speed buff to apply bleed and damage first, while Virtuoso is more of the "tanky" support character
I don't know 3rd rank he is a monster. Give him some mastery and watch him blind, combo, vulnerable and bleed the opposing team. Him giving negative tokens from his attack moves stand out to me as too much.
@@thorinhannahs4614 given how much damage potential he has in his kit makes slice off and harvest balanced out by the opportunity cost of not using finale early on. That combined with the inconvenient targeting of them doesn’t make them that powerful. His combo generation is crazy but using him just for this is basically wasting a whole turn of his which can be used better to deal damage encore or dodge tank if necessary.
@@friedwater6519 that seems like it would make sense but then soloist becomes way too powerful bc of guaranteed crit tokens with snappy swig and the huge 30% damage bonus would make him decimate everything short of bosses. Also if you were to take away virtuosos speed buff it would be optimal to give him more dot resist to make him into a pseudo tank role. Along with that it would be nice if he were to get some more dodge on some more moves to make him the first proper dodge tank (sorry Audrey the stealth requirements are terrible).
What if "IF it bleeds" pulled hellion forward and "Bleed Out" pushed her back, making a dance character out of her? On top of that adding to berserker a quirk - attaking bleeding units dont generate winded tokens
The new paths being side grades are nice and all but it's so tedious to actually figure out what they change without having to manually evaluate all listed skills. Makes it harder to figure things out for newer players.
I was a big fan of DD1, and there are things that I like a lot about DD2 but one of the absolute worst things about it is the massive information overload and cluttered UI. I really would prefer if it used real sentences instead of saying "if token, then token, token x2, gain token on token" on these cramped tooltips I spent too much time trying to figure out why my flagellant's deathless ability wasn't the broken "heal both" ability on a few runs before realizing it only applied to scourge path
gr got passively buffed in my opinion: her dagger throw bypasses guard and we just got a bunch of new enemies which are capable of guarding. its a small thing but i like seeing her excel at something others dont do
no i think he's right, the small buff to repartee where you don't need stealth anymore just made her viable as a tank. i really REALLY love doing repartee into dead of night and making her my main tanker. it's surprisingly fun to do cause dead of night is such a massive heal. if you get that trinket that converts dodge into dodge+ she's SUPER hard to kill. especially running PD and blinding grenade too. virtually never gets hit.
Crusader and Flagellant duo goes absolutely crazy, pick alchemist Plague Doctor and Sharpshot Highwayman as the backliners and i think its impossible to lose. But i still have more fun running Vestal rank 1, just to be mad about it later.
Vestal needs love and Runaway needs love. Crusader made that immediately apparant with his fire synergy and his "haha I'm a tank, oh have a stress heal and have a heal" I'd like Chaplain to be turned into a burn path so a more true burn team could exist. Something like Conviction has a chance to inflict burn when hit. Divine Grace does not feel good to use, flip her token mastery situation on it. Conviction lowers the health percentage requirement and the mastery buffs the actual heal amount. Poor Vestal.
We dont need more nerfs we already handling a lot of negatives on the road and negative quirks they get. No nerf hammer just buff low rated low used units or reworked paths
Absolutely agree on Runaway and Vestal. Bonnie is used for DoT and debuff, but can't be trusted as a solo-healer. Vestal's consecrations are such a cool idea, but 2 rounds of setup and lackluster damage are just not worth it. That's a bit of a gripe with the Aggressor-Crusader too. Got a buff for respierce, a buff for bonusdamage vs. burning, and a buff to heal vs. burning. You could use those for such great synergies - or just smite something 3 times and actually kill stuff.
I really like what they did with Vestal in DD2. Consecrations are fun to play around with and I like the concept of moves scaling with conviction tokens. Her numbers just suck for no reason. The best comparison to her is Occultist. He can stack up his unique tokens way faster. Warlock can already get 2 tokens on round 2 and straight up deal 20 damage with Burning Stars. Vestal has longer set up since she has to wait 3 turns to charge her conviction but the results are still underwhelming.
I agree. Even other support heros atleast have some decent melee attack on the side. But Vestals mace bash is just awful, it also eats up the tokens which you might need for something else making it really tricky to use her. Her healing is also really bad too. I think her healing and overall damage needs to increase / also make it easier to gain tokens.
@@Hunko115 Her Judgement sucks ass, too. I just finished the run with Seraph. For the most part, she dealt 8 damage even with 3 conviction tokens. And you need at least 2 turns to set her conviction generation. Not to mention, she has no fire res piercing, so burn don't even stuck most of the time. This just laughable compared to the amount of damage PD can dish out on turn one with no setup. Divine Grace is ass too. Its threshold is too low, especially for squishy heros. I just unequipped and used Mantra and Crusader for healing. I can't even imagine unequipping Divine Grace in DD1.
I think this looks totally accurate, although I will say that I've been running Poet lately and have been really blown away by how well he's been performing. Withstand + Intimidate let him taunt every turn while taking very little damage, Solemnity makes him basically immortal and makes him very good at managing his stress, Bash and his move resist means he can just outright ignore a lot of mechanics, AND his Seashell trinket (gives him -10% damage received per negative token) makes him *actually* immortal. I think that his character could use some work overall, but Poet has quickly become my favorite tank after a Stygian grandslam run with him. For context, the comp was: PD (Alchemist) | Jester (Virtuoso) | Duelist (Antagoniste) | Leper (Poet)
The only way I've been able to make Berserker work is with Deadly being locked in forcing her bleed skills to have like 40% crit when upgraded. She *REALLY* needs to be able to use "Bleedout" when in rank 2 for Berserker specifically to start shining.
Excellent video, Shuff. Something I've noticed the moment you placed Leper into C tier is just how broad our frontline options have gotten compared to the backline. Sure, you can run Leper, and I still do. But we should recognize that takes a spot that then doesn't go to MAA/Duelist/Crus/Flag, and those are... Generally easier and more functional in play, as long as you don't need Leper's self-sustain. This is in stark contrast to our mid- and backranks, where I find myself moving midrank (GR, HWM, Occ, Duelist) heroes mostly into rank 3 to slot in that extra frontliner, and rank 4 still has... Four heroes, two of which being Vestal and Runaway? And this is before considering that Leper loathes movement (he "loses" fights to combat start shuffles, doesn't synergize well with Duelist (and some others)) and is highly reliant on combo, which... Isn't something that is used a lot in the new heroes' kits, be it setting or consuming combo. He's definitely struggling, and I'm sad to see him where he is.
Also I feel like plague doctor straight up just outclasses most other rank 4s most of the time. her heal is way better than vestals, and why bother using strength consecrations when you could just do damage? Her only competition is occultist or vestal. Technically I guess you can use a few other characters in 4 but they aren't great, Itd be comp specific. Runaway is fine, but she can't do much but spam her fire bomb skill. Other than that the other characters are things that will need to move to work.
@@SecureBirch410 Occ is still a very good backranker, but I agree that he's the only hero that can truly compete PD for the spot (Or for rank 3 in case of lunge or similar shenanigans). Crusader could do it, but needs very specific partners in case he chooses to Holy Lance, so rank 3 Crus is probably preferred.
@@SecureBirch410 We gotta get the Arbalest or Musketeer back. Or just an Archer. Or some sort of mechanic or artificer who can shoot things? A Tinkerer or Trapmaker?
Can't wait till 5 years later, someone reminds how bad your takes on the Heroes were, after the game balance and meta have already changed. Reddit will never let you forget "BH is worse HWM".
there was also a rework to healing items, now they heal flat values instead of percentages (mineral water heals 5, salve heals 12 and tonic heals 17) also, you want the person getting the extra turn from encore take 3 stress? that's literally just instructrise duelist's upgraded "Again!" (defense stance)
Great tier list! I think it's all spot on, and even though I love Leper, I agree with your placement. I personally think he's very solid and underrated (the whole Withstand into Intimidate spam tends to be really good as its basically ignoring chop and focusing on tanking), but at the same time, he's definitely not going to be as strong as others like MAA or Crusader (Although Leper's a better tank than Crusader, he is still more selfish than Crusader's teamwide support). I genuinely don't think Leper needs much changes, at most maybe changes to paths, but everything else is generally okay, every skill has its niche (Break is a bad skill, but on Poet I found myself using it much more than chop in tangle, purge is also niche but is invaluable against librarian, bash is perfect against harvest child, etc.) I personally see Leper as an inconsistent damage dealer, but a consistent tank. I still use chop on Tempest, since effectively there are opportunities when Leper gets to chop something for big damage, otherwise he focuses on tanking for the team. (Makes life easier as you don't have to bother generating combo for him) Source: Leper fan in both DD1 and DD2, where Leper literally carried both my bloodmoon run and my grand slam. I definitely noticed how squishy Crusader feels by comparison to MAA and Leper, Bulwark of Faith is really well balanced (It's not spammable, and once his block is used, Crusader doesn't have a lot of health to rely upon), but I'm loving Banneret Crusader + Ravager Hellion frontline, where both of them can taunt for the team. Jester frankly could lose encore and he'd still be very good (certainly not the current S tier monster he is), but I do admit that Encore as an ability is really too good. Fade to Black is an absurdly overloaded skill as well, and of course finale is, as you already mentioned, amazing for how easy it is to set up (unlike DD1 where you have to charge it up for like 5 episodes like Goku). Jester still does so much, and he does it while knocking off defensive tokens. On another note, I really think it wouldn't be gamebreaking for Vestal to have her stun back. Enemies generally have chunky stun resist, and I think Vestal deserves to have more utility than just being a buff bot, especially since they basically gutted her healing (and gave Antagoniste a stun on a stick, or gun in this case). It was boring having her spam divine comfort while stalling, but I think they overdid the changes to divine grace and comfort, both skills are currently rubbish for healing, mantra's more of an "oh shit" button than a heal, and PD heals for far more, consistently and cures, which is pretty ridiculous. Overall, glad to finally hear your thoughts on the new characters as well as all the changes!
I'd say Duelist earns her A-Rank. Omni strike on touche, fletche hits hard and at least since my comps usually run MAA or Crusader im usually able to setup strong meditation/preparation turns pretty reliably. Idk, maybe she's too slow in later acts but I'm seeing consistent success in acts 1-3.
I just had a run where used Crusader as a self-healing damage sponge using the Aggressor path. With PD throwing out Magnesium Rain to enable his 20% heal on melee hit, plus reap's cleave (two hits per turn = 40% heal every turn), plus, Bulwark's regen, my boy was UNKILLABLE. I love Crus, there are so many ways to play him and it's beautiful.
As a fix/buff for the Vestal, what if she no longer consumed her tokens? So she would ramp up over time as she got her tokens, and have stronger abilities the longer a battle goes on.
I wish all characters were like Flagellant. All of their paths are useful, most of their abilities are useful, and they are just a fun character with a good gimmick.
crazy idea to buff Runaway's Survivor path: -remove use limit on cauterize (nutty intermezzo synergy) -either A) reduce cooldown on controlled burn by 1 or B) increase damage on melee skills or C) melee skills have a chance to apply weaken/vuln
My favorite team remains the usual suspects, and I admit that Junia in that party does some work, helping Dismas and Reynauld deal more damage and tank more efficiently with her Seraph path, but I admit her damage is basically not even worth spending a turn on and her heal overall is just bad. It's still sad
Vestal is not bad, but her healing compared to other healers is bad (even my boy Reynauld is a better healer even without banneret) but she has some fun stuff in her kit. Just need some love for her healing.
There are so many little issues with vestal its just sad. I can think of a couple of changes id like to see. -It would be nice if illumination generated combo like highway mans tracking shot does. Maybe just on confessor if its too much by default. -Both Chaplin and Confessor Mantras have a weaker version of their mastery effect by default so you arent forced to burn a token to play the path at the first inn (who decided this was ok) -Confessors hand of light should work in at least 3rd rank to make it usable. -Id love to see confessor gain conviction in a unique way, maybe each time a negative is placed by her and teammates for example? -Mantra for confessor can activate on any character with a negative token instead of consecrations. -confessor judgement gets burn and 100% damage on mastery -Chaplin Hand of Light always taunts and isnt trinket locked -Chaplin Sanctuary keeps the stress heal on mastery (how did it somehos get nerfed on tha tank class) -I think it would be cool if Chaplin got a method of applying guard to 2 allies instead of just one to really take advantage of her Mantra. Maybe change her defense consecration to give her the buff and guard an ally? could be cool. -Seraph is fine but id love it if her mastered Mantra also applied the consecrations effect one last time. Also just general buffs to divine grace and mace bash and hand of light please.
Honestly I think the duelist is amazing and might be OP, all her skills and her paths are really god and she can be plugged in any team with any of her paths. I love her as much as my boy Reynauld.
I'd have to completely disagree. She feels awfully slow and clunky to play, requires a ton of set-ups, has very little health and her damage is quite average. She isn't dealing close the same amounts as some of the go-to paths.
@@0rcd0cI agree. Too much set up for not enough pay off. Dd2 requires so much damage right out the gate or you're going to be punished. Sacrificing a turn for a set up can't really be done as much as in DD 1. Also I feel like Everytime she moves up front she gets her ass kicked. So squishy.
Duelist is... incredibly fun. Wanderer dance from rank 3 to 2 with hand of light vestal, instructrice buffing highwayman, antagoniste sticking vulnerable tokens on command, flèche spamming with the General's dream. Also really glad that backline crusader is a thing again, it definitely doesn't feel as good as frontline crusader but I wouldn't have it any other way. What hasn't been fun however has been my absolutely rotten luck on my new file, granted I should have grinded speed inn items but I've been losing heroes on repeat against hastened ordained ennemies forcing death door checks before I even get to play.
I feel like Runaway isn't given enough credit. Between PD levels of dot damage (dragonfly is just frontline grenade w/ combo application, firefly is backline noxious -1. Controlled Burn is also great vs multi-action bosses) positional flexibility, a very loaded utility button in Smokescreen, a strong heal that - while conditional, no region in the game is short of bleed, and underappreciated self-preservation(that albeit demands a mastery point), that while I agree a couple of her moves absolutely need some love (Hearthlight / Backdraft) I feel like her weaknesses are a bit overstated and doesn't feel like she's in a rough overall state at all imo
Nothing to add to your tierlist I think you are pretty on point and more knowledgable than me anyway. But one thing you said that struck me is how Jester is good because all of his abilities are good making him a versatile and fun hero to play. That's exactly what this game needs to go from a good game to a very good game. We have asked for Hellion and runaway skills rework for so long, I hope RH wake up on this sooner than later.
When I play with Leper, I always feeI like he needs a specific set of trinkets to make it work well, like he had some kind of blind synergy missing from his kit you needed to fix with *trinkets and baubles paid for in blood*
The only thing in that direction is the cosmic trinket which makes blind tokens generate huge crit chance. But you still need combo tokens for him. There is also a new combat item which is non consumable with 4 turn cooldown but generates a combo token. I got it from the crusader's boss tough, don't know if it's possible to find it anywhere else.
I think Crusader is S tier. He does it all. Tank, heal, stress heal, damage (direct AND DoT), dance. He's just very generically good, and that kind of flexibility means there's almost never a situation where he's bad. He's not MAA, but he's close. I'd say Leper is B tier. He can be good, but he comes at a steep teambuilding cost, and what you get for it is about A tier strong opposed to the S-tiers that are OP out of the box. But his tanking ability and general unkillability is pretty universally useful. Runaway has to be better than C tier. Maybe high B or even low A. She does too much. Her DoT is huge, smokebomb is loaded, and cauterize, if incidental, is a pretty thick heal.
Honestly duelist isnt rocket science u can just run antagoniste in defensive stance 24/7. Disengage turn 1 until u upgrade touche. Then every other turn between meditations u have touche to apply weaken, disengage to reposition (i really like dragonfly spam) or upgrade for double blind, the boot to disrupt enemy positioning or upgrade to stun, and flick to delete those pesky rabid dogs. All u *need* to upgrade is meditation to become an effective dodge tank. Not to mention the defensive passive lowers debuff resist which helps ur entire team instead of just duelist. Blistering bugle absolutely slaps on this path tho because u dont have to worry about switching to defensive stance before using meditation to get taunt. Now u can choose to ignore block, apply vulnerable, apply combo, and riposte. I think i was right in thinking the high risk/high reward playstyle of intrepide doesnt have good enough reward to ever be worth using tho. I got her to +120% damage dealt, +5% crit after stalling for 10 rounds. I hit a crit flick for 30 damage, which isnt even enough to oneshot the shackles of despair......
@@ShuffleFM This is true. Just important to emphasize that even without using her second stance, she still feels like MAA in that she has a tool for practically every situation.
@@avayevvnon914 Unlike MAA, most of her tools are stance-limited and require set up, MAA is tanky and can work in any rank while using almost his full kit.
I can't be the only one that thinks Ravager and Berserker's names are mixed up, right? Like... "Berserker" sounds like the one that wants to just run at you and hit you in the face, up close and personal, with a lot of raw HP to soak hits and moreso deliberately take the damage needed to get her rage +DMG boost. Conversely, "Ravager" sounds visceral, raw, contemptuous almost. You'd think that'd be the one ravaging her enemies more methodically with precision brutal hits that cause them to bleed out and die.
Mr. Shuffle, Vestal's Seraph path is really quite good. Toss down a consecration or two, dance around them with the three other characters, fully charging her bad girl tokens every turn. I was nuking monsters with fully juiced judgement and even mace bash consecutively. I grand slammed this way and was blown away with how powerful and fun her kit really is. This all gets really out of hand with pocketwatch or jealous whisper. Otherwise, I agree. Her other skills and paths need a lil buff.
"Toss down a consecration or two, dance around them with the three other characters" That's exactly why she pales in comparison to other characters. She needs to jump through hoops to contribute meager damage. Meanwhile, you throw 2x Plague Grenade or 2x Sky Spaghetti and enemies start dying.
@@0rcd0c Had a feeling someone would say that. It's true, grenade brings a lot to the table, but I get bored of pressing the same buttons. A character's value should be what they contribute to the team. I prefer character design that feels like puzzle pieces fitting together. You're not "jumping through hoops," you're powering up your other team members proactively with attention to the turn order, while judgement casually hits for 16-30.
Duelist is the best Dps/Debuffer in the game, its honestly shocking what you can do with her and makes Leper look like a joke, her low HP is her only drawback.
Her DPS is ok, and debuffs are situational since are stance dependent. I agree with leper being a joke but her setup really harms her, one improvement would be having some of her paths start with a stance.
I love Leper, still entirely feel like he's a good character as I did use him for my Grand Slam run, but I agree with his ranking here. Unfortunately, he feels way too stagnant right now because unless you really want to play off meta, it seems like every kit is always carrying Chop, Reflection, and Solemnity and then you get two whole choices on other moves you want, which usually end up being Intimidate or Withstand.
I think the most annoying character gimmick has to be Leper. The Blind occurs way too often IMO. Leper shouldn't start the battle with Blind, and also make it 50% and 25% chance to blind after attacking. Or maybe give him a skill that gives him blind immunity for 2 - 3 round or something.
I’d be curious to see how you setup skills for certain paths. How do you build tank robber? What are crusader setups and order of skills to use: upgrade. Your stuffs amazing thank you for all your content
I'll make a build vid soon, sounds like a great idea. Tank robber is really basic. Plug her into 1 or 2, give her the damage options you want, absinthe, dead of night and repartee.
Just started playing the game on console, so thanks for this list. I am enjoying the game, but I do miss a lot of aspects from the first game. DD2 feels a lot more difficult once you get past the first expedition. The upgrades are much more obtuse in this game.
Runaway is a worse crusader. Runaway has a worse heal, no stress heal, worse melee, requires tokens. Its not 100% apples to apples but.. crusader even has a back rank set up for fire damage and support. AND crusader isnt the best character in the game.. doesnt that say something about Runaway? Goodness.
They really should start buffing characters instead of nerfing them. Vestal and runaway are a joke and Hellion barely exists but clearly lowering MAA's damage is truly more important
Hellion is pretty strong on ravager, really simple play pattern but she demolishes some enemies with howling end or iron swan, really good against confession 2
I think for the vestal healing if they change it in the next update that it should replenish flat number heals for example instead of percentages which will be a nerf to tanks but a buff for low health heroes, divine Grace should heal 15 hp and with 2 conviction tokens heal additional 5 hp and full conviction heals another 5 hp so in total a hero is receiving 25 health and should have a cooldown of 1 turn on mastery with this new healing added to her kit makes her a reliable healer similiar to occultist
@@mateusz11123 sure his healing high-rolls more often but he also has the RNG factor and meme of Crit heal 0 + bleed. I love using Occultist as a healer but honestly I'd argue Junia has a better heal because it's consistent in how much it heals. Occultist is strong as a support and DPS with Burning Stars, his healing aint where he shines.
Honestly feel Duelist if a safe A if not with possibility to love up or down (maybe up cause I think her skill ceiling is high that usually means she has room for optimization and skilled play to make her even better)
When it comes to duelist, I say give her some more time, you guys haven’t played with her long enough to understand her to make a call on whether she’s good or not. So for that reason, if there was a “Unsure” tier, I’d put her in there.
They should add a flame that disables all positive tokens and nerfs any and all things that are good in the game, caps hero damage to like 10, caps the stagecoach to one wheel and one armor, disables pets, limits trinket slots to 1 and call it the torturers flame. With an achievement the true masochists.
Coming from a player that has done a moderate amount of play (120 hours), HWM feels like a light S simply because of his target flexibility mixed with kit. I play safer than perhaps I need to, but for many situations, the safety of having 3 people able to hit any particular rank compared to 2 people is a big selling point. HWM slots in easily as that guy who might not have the most diverse kit, but does something that is always impactful (non-type damage and just hitting) extremely well. He also is easy to make decisions for and use, while someone like Flagellant (or MaA to a much lesser extent) requires game knowledge and/or forethought. Press button, hit anywhere, thing go boom or shrivel up. Any chance you could (or did) discuss your personal picks for standout Positive Quirks like The Jinx?
Why doesn't anyone talk about how helpful Mantra is? On Seraph it becomes a 50% health with no health requirement. Quite helpful when you have multiple characters on the ground.
I agree on vestal. I tried to get usual suspects achievement. And she contributed little to the team. At best she removed dodge and gave crits. Other than that she mostly took damage for the team with guard.
Speed wasn't the problem. She just didn't add anything to the team. I had rogue HWM with Banneret for Point blank combo. Pd and Crusader had backline and healing covered. That left vestal having almost nothing to do other than buff and guard.
Love your content Shuffle, it helped me a LOT with DD1. Was wondering if now is a good time to get into DD2? I was kind of waiting for the games dlc to be released and or a sale
I have a question regarding Occultist’s Ritualist path. I’ve heard over and over how good it is for the curses, but I’ve also heard over and over again how this game is driven by DPS and “set up” paths aren’t really that hot (such as Hellion). What makes Ritualist worth using with that in mind?
He sets up really fast compared to other paths he's got a decent speed so he mixes well with all kinds of set up plans he's got decent damage still and healing really set up becomes a problem when your entire team is doing it one character doing it is completely fine
Ritualist gets some strong upsides. The curses dropping 2 tokens by default and the debuff pierce are very turn efficient. His heal is also not trash, and malediction melts bosses.
I think legitimately if breakthrough had bleed on berzerker then there would be less problems with the bleed skill synergy. Currently all her dancing options for going up don’t do any damage or bleed and you just always want to take toe to toe mastered for the utility over anything else. It’s legitimately disappointing to see how rigid building hellion has gotten because of how her paths work and I just wish they would have more of her skills change based on paths. Why doesn’t carcass add some utility to her, like maybe make raucous revelry better or something. Rn she just feels like ravager only, why even pick another path unless you’re going for a gimmick team built around her. Like I’ve won with berzerker multiple times but it’s always with jester or duelist doing all the heavy lifting for her movement and lost damage without ravager.
How do you even nerf take aim at this point. IF you take the 2 crit tokens from this move you basically make it useless. the 2 crit tokens are basically what makes this more useful than hitting with an attack for 3 turns. It does feel kind of unfair that this move has only benefits while leper has to take vuln token just to get a strength token and a low chance for a crit. Maybe change it to : take aim gives : speed dodge crit / take aim + gives : speed dodge strength crit and 50% chance for crit the next 2 turns. slow this move by giving it a longer CD like 2 or 3 turns so you only use it 1 or 2 times in short fights. that way you can either keep the ball rolling with grapeshot or use it on big hits like point blank. basically make the double crit a maybe not a guarantee. I feel like Duelist is getting the short hand with her 1 crit buff
I think the duelist is a C : Yes she can do amazing stuff BUT she has too many conditions. As a dancing character, she has to be in the right spot AND she needs to be on the right style to do what she has to do for the team.
ngl, not using vestal actually saved me........ plague doctor is so much better, and I can fit better stress healers on my team too! Too bad I lost two of my heroes on the mountain boss cause I forgot to switch skills XD
what does the orange/dark yellow text mean for hero abilities? I noticed some only get that when you put a mastery point in them, but i dont know what it affects
I disagree on Vestal « Divine comfort ». It is an easy snowball perk. It’s allready one of the only consistant healing for squichy heroes (and there are a lot of them). Plus it is really easy to find her item that basicly 2x the healing on this spell making it heal for 15 hps on / 3 turns for the 4 heroes. It makes the all team invulnerable to most dots like this spell is to me the best healing spell of the game by far. Easy healing, consitant, and giving space to more agro plays. And when you see the other party healing perks in the game she’s doing really well. If you ever tried to play plague doctor as solo healer it’s just hawfull. And the occultist is doing terrible to.
I think you may be sleeping on Seraph Vestal. She's incredibly effective in dance teams who can activate consecrations multiple times, and even without that she can drop a +50% heal on two ranks with Mantra. No tokens and no threshold. I agree with everything else you said - She is pitifully weak in 3/4 of her paths - But Seraph is genuinely an exception. I just did my own Grand Slam with a Vestal-Duelist-Crusader-MAA dance team and she was generating massive value the whole run.
i just played "the wall" comp as it's known in game, (vestal, MAA, crusader, leper) and i just had them rotating between the lance and shield bash getting two tokens for vestal on most turns, i thought it was such a cool way to improve her efficacy and take even more advantage of her unique buff conditions, i'm really not the most experienced but this was one of the more fun and even effective teams i tried out
Why this man is always saying ''why they didn't nerf this ,when nerf that'...' this is not League of legends or some other multiplayer that needs nerfs constantly, but instead just buff the other characters so they are at least as good as the others. There are many skills that are bad compared to others and they could fix that instead of nerfing that would be much better imo.
It's easier to nerf a couple outliers that are blatantly too strong. The game still has to account for its own balance vs the monsters. Most of us want to be challenged. Buffing what's weak could be a bunch of things at once and would cause more issues if it was already okay. It's an inefficient use of time.
@@ShuffleFM Ok, thanks for your answer but maybe you are too good at the game, I recently unlocked chapter five, and I think this game is harder than DD1. Maybe for you some heroes are op or whatever but I see that some heroes are potato compared to others, like leper, some skills of runaway are almost useless and vestal heal less than a crusader! Probably need to fix that too. Thanks for your videos you are helping a lot.
some of these heroes just need you to have the right trinkets. which is my big gripe about DD2. their trinket system is awful. not being able to keep trinkets as a meta progression sucks. like runaway would be an amazing healer if i could keep trinkets and put a bunch of trickets that bleed your heroes in various situations. honestly i'm not really happy with how the meta progression feels in dd2. i dunno how to describe it. but most roguelike games you feel a sense of belonging or like "this is what i'm growing" kind of with their meta progression. in dd2, everything feels like it resets way too often. sometimes the meta progression is detrimental, like with unlocked extra pets. now it's a roll and you can get nothing but crap pets in your selection... feels like regression not progression. upgrading the heroes is about the only decent feeling meta progression in this game. unlocking items and trinkets sometimes feels annoying cause it just means more stuff that can take up space for useful stuff. especially since you can't sell stuff (unless you can and i'm just stupid and haven't noticed how to do it). i guess upgrading like the stagecoach and the bonuses to scouting and what not is ok. but yea, just hero upgrades plus the stagecoach/exploring upgrades are about the only progression you get really.
I just unlocked Leper and he stood by himself against that fucking grabby goobler of the deep. Self healing and massive damage from time to time solo almost won the boss fight. Has he been buffed since this video?.
Give it time... When Vestal was the new thing everybody was praising how good she was, how broken seraph was and so on. Now people see her for what she is, a slow healer with bad heals and bad support skills and no damage... Duelist is going to be the same thing. She has a very convoluted and slow playstyle that does not go well with the game (not unlike carcass), a damage dealer that only deals damage after round 3, not even close to the damage HMW can deal or GR for that matter. Duelist is a worse GR at best with worse reach. I am all in for interesting and complex playstyles but duelist feels like an overdesigned character that does not do well in the current "Meta of the game", which is finish every non boss fight by round 3 and the game is a breeze, unfortunately. Instructrice is her best path, great playstyle. Intrepide is nice on paper but it only needs a dot to break the whole thing, kinda funny... That said, Crusader is cool, middle of the pack hero, 2 good paths and 2 bad paths. Poet Leper is the best tank of the game, the dude deserves a B, at least.
MAA got nerfed with -1 base damage so is obviously F tier and useless. (Pay to win DLC shm my head)
Atleast Crusader doesnt have armor penetration and insane blight piercing, imagine giving that to a hero in first game, sounds broken af.
Literally useless he is carrying me through this game so far
lmao, I can't lie tho. The MAA nerf annoys me. I'm not level headed like Shuffle, every time now I use retribution and don't get block I get an angry feeling in my chest. He was too strong, for too long. Now I miss it.
Vestal: Gets D tier.
(*Shuffle realising how bad she really is*)
Runaway: THAT TASTES LIKE PROMOTION
Took the community over half a year to finally realize that. She's been poop tier since her release but people overvalue the buffs. She desperately needs a buff.
You play Vestal because she's fun, not because she's good.
Bonnie's heal needs to lose the bleed requirement: Heal small on normal targets, heal more when purging a bleed effect. Bam! Viable solo-healer and keeps the cauterizing wounds theme 😉
Here's a suggestion how this could work:
Cauterize: Uses: 3
Target: Heal 15%
Target: Heal for 33% of remaining 🔴
Target: Remove 🔴
---
Cauterize+: Uses: 3
Target: Heal 20%
Target: Heal for 50% of remaining 🔴
Target: Remove 🔴
Might increase uses to 4 and limit this version to Survivor to make this now rather pointless path work as her dedicated healer-role.
@@Nokaretyoooo that’s a really nice twist with the healing being equal to the amount of bleed left. I would love to see that in the game
If they ever update Lepers paths I’d love to see if the paths had like different negative tokens. Like poet would be much more consistent as a support/tank if he got weaken tokens instead of blinds.
That would make his chop a more consistent dmg move, that wouldn't make any sense unless they nerfed the hell out of his damage, wich already is not great
Yes but we don't have a "arms falls off" token yet 😅
@@criseljugon unless its weaken token
Tempest giving vulnerable makes sense
Monarch should get consistently daze then: but also change his abilities so that they are powerful enough to justify the fact he is going last all the time and risks heavily to get stunned
Oh boy I can't wait to see how my favorite hero Hellion ranks! This guy seems to have a good head on his shoulders and will rate her S tier like she deserves!
:(
Boulder Fist bro....
Bro... this guy puts leper in C tier, can you
Ranked B for Bae
Dunno how GR managed to be over Hellion tbh. The arguments regarding Ravager solely carrying Hellion are true but she will be a powerhouse until we get a complete rework which is not anywhere in sight judging from the dev talks.
I feel this in my gut as a runaway fan
Leper and Vestal gotta have the biggest glow-downs in power from the first game.
Even after speed token removal from HWM, take aim is still busted. Ability to generate 2 crit tokens instantly, that can turn tide of battle at anytime without any drawbacks, is insanely good.
But I do agree with this tier list, mainly the crusader is powerhouse right now.
I Agree, besides the speed stat is easily upgradable by multiple items and trinkets, and sharpshot give him base 8, with is the most important thing.
Crusader is hardly a powerhouse, he’s just a true Jack of all trades unlike most other hero’s. His damage isn’t top, tanking isn’t top, healing is only okay, better at off healing when needed. Stress heal is okay, other than that his paths are kinda meh, a few skill change but otherwise he plays the same. He isn’t fighting for a top spot in any role on any team, he’s not weak just not amazing at anything specific. Personally I’d like to see his paths get buffed to further spec him into tanking, healing or damage.
In my honest opinion Jester is in the exact spot where most of the heroes should be. All of his skills are useful, all his paths (except wanderer) are good and viable and he fits in multiple roles well (not something every character needs to do but its a bonus none the less). Also in my opinion the finale damage is very satisfying as is and should stay the same if only for the satisfaction of just seeing cherubs evaporate. If it were to be nerfed it would no longer feel as good as it does which would be a great shame imo. But I must admit that encore is really good and possibly the best move in the game due to action economy, but it is, just like Jester, only as strong as your team. That means it encourages good teambuilding in a sense and really encourages creativity (unless youre just hitting double plague grenade). So in my opinion Jester should stay as he is. The only thing I would change if anything id rework virutoso and give the man 8 speed basekit to push him over the sprawl trinket usage threshold. Sincerely the #1 Jester fan.
Same thing for flagellant, honestly. Except 1 or 2 of his skills that are very situational, he's mainly top tier because all his skills are good and all his paths are viable which makes him very versatile.
I've honestly thought that Soloist and Virtuoso should switch speeds, so Soloist gets the speed buff to apply bleed and damage first, while Virtuoso is more of the "tanky" support character
I don't know 3rd rank he is a monster. Give him some mastery and watch him blind, combo, vulnerable and bleed the opposing team. Him giving negative tokens from his attack moves stand out to me as too much.
@@thorinhannahs4614 given how much damage potential he has in his kit makes slice off and harvest balanced out by the opportunity cost of not using finale early on. That combined with the inconvenient targeting of them doesn’t make them that powerful. His combo generation is crazy but using him just for this is basically wasting a whole turn of his which can be used better to deal damage encore or dodge tank if necessary.
@@friedwater6519 that seems like it would make sense but then soloist becomes way too powerful bc of guaranteed crit tokens with snappy swig and the huge 30% damage bonus would make him decimate everything short of bosses. Also if you were to take away virtuosos speed buff it would be optimal to give him more dot resist to make him into a pseudo tank role. Along with that it would be nice if he were to get some more dodge on some more moves to make him the first proper dodge tank (sorry Audrey the stealth requirements are terrible).
What if "IF it bleeds" pulled hellion forward and "Bleed Out" pushed her back, making a dance character out of her?
On top of that adding to berserker a quirk - attaking bleeding units dont generate winded tokens
Or just make it ''if it bleeds'' be able to hit from rank 1 just like the first DD
Not generating winded tokensm ight be too strong. I like the dance moves idea tho
Honestly making Bleed out be usable from 2 is a better idea. We don't want omi-reach Hellion agy
The new paths being side grades are nice and all but it's so tedious to actually figure out what they change without having to manually evaluate all listed skills. Makes it harder to figure things out for newer players.
They are somewhat confusing, duelist is the worst offender since her skills change so much.
Yup, 9 months in with the new path system and still no fix to this.
this game does need better tooltips in a bunch of situations.
I was a big fan of DD1, and there are things that I like a lot about DD2 but one of the absolute worst things about it is the massive information overload and cluttered UI.
I really would prefer if it used real sentences instead of saying "if token, then token, token x2, gain token on token" on these cramped tooltips
I spent too much time trying to figure out why my flagellant's deathless ability wasn't the broken "heal both" ability on a few runs before realizing it only applied to scourge path
gr got passively buffed in my opinion: her dagger throw bypasses guard and we just got a bunch of new enemies which are capable of guarding. its a small thing but i like seeing her excel at something others dont do
U are right, didnt think about it before, but she could clear those messy patrols easily.
no i think he's right, the small buff to repartee where you don't need stealth anymore just made her viable as a tank. i really REALLY love doing repartee into dead of night and making her my main tanker. it's surprisingly fun to do cause dead of night is such a massive heal. if you get that trinket that converts dodge into dodge+ she's SUPER hard to kill. especially running PD and blinding grenade too. virtually never gets hit.
Crusader and Flagellant duo goes absolutely crazy, pick alchemist Plague Doctor and Sharpshot Highwayman as the backliners and i think its impossible to lose.
But i still have more fun running Vestal rank 1, just to be mad about it later.
Vestal needs love and Runaway needs love. Crusader made that immediately apparant with his fire synergy and his "haha I'm a tank, oh have a stress heal and have a heal" I'd like Chaplain to be turned into a burn path so a more true burn team could exist. Something like Conviction has a chance to inflict burn when hit. Divine Grace does not feel good to use, flip her token mastery situation on it. Conviction lowers the health percentage requirement and the mastery buffs the actual heal amount. Poor Vestal.
We dont need more nerfs we already handling a lot of negatives on the road and negative quirks they get. No nerf hammer just buff low rated low used units or reworked paths
Absolutely agree on Runaway and Vestal. Bonnie is used for DoT and debuff, but can't be trusted as a solo-healer.
Vestal's consecrations are such a cool idea, but 2 rounds of setup and lackluster damage are just not worth it.
That's a bit of a gripe with the Aggressor-Crusader too. Got a buff for respierce, a buff for bonusdamage vs. burning, and a buff to heal vs. burning. You could use those for such great synergies - or just smite something 3 times and actually kill stuff.
I really like what they did with Vestal in DD2. Consecrations are fun to play around with and I like the concept of moves scaling with conviction tokens. Her numbers just suck for no reason.
The best comparison to her is Occultist. He can stack up his unique tokens way faster. Warlock can already get 2 tokens on round 2 and straight up deal 20 damage with Burning Stars. Vestal has longer set up since she has to wait 3 turns to charge her conviction but the results are still underwhelming.
I agree.
Even other support heros atleast have some decent melee attack on the side.
But Vestals mace bash is just awful,
it also eats up the tokens which you might need for something else making it
really tricky to use her.
Her healing is also really bad too.
I think her healing and overall damage needs to increase / also make it easier to gain tokens.
@@Hunko115 Her Judgement sucks ass, too. I just finished the run with Seraph. For the most part, she dealt 8 damage even with 3 conviction tokens. And you need at least 2 turns to set her conviction generation. Not to mention, she has no fire res piercing, so burn don't even stuck most of the time.
This just laughable compared to the amount of damage PD can dish out on turn one with no setup.
Divine Grace is ass too. Its threshold is too low, especially for squishy heros. I just unequipped and used Mantra and Crusader for healing. I can't even imagine unequipping Divine Grace in DD1.
I think this looks totally accurate, although I will say that I've been running Poet lately and have been really blown away by how well he's been performing. Withstand + Intimidate let him taunt every turn while taking very little damage, Solemnity makes him basically immortal and makes him very good at managing his stress, Bash and his move resist means he can just outright ignore a lot of mechanics, AND his Seashell trinket (gives him -10% damage received per negative token) makes him *actually* immortal. I think that his character could use some work overall, but Poet has quickly become my favorite tank after a Stygian grandslam run with him.
For context, the comp was:
PD (Alchemist) | Jester (Virtuoso) | Duelist (Antagoniste) | Leper (Poet)
The only way I've been able to make Berserker work is with Deadly being locked in forcing her bleed skills to have like 40% crit when upgraded. She *REALLY* needs to be able to use "Bleedout" when in rank 2 for Berserker specifically to start shining.
Excellent video, Shuff.
Something I've noticed the moment you placed Leper into C tier is just how broad our frontline options have gotten compared to the backline. Sure, you can run Leper, and I still do. But we should recognize that takes a spot that then doesn't go to MAA/Duelist/Crus/Flag, and those are... Generally easier and more functional in play, as long as you don't need Leper's self-sustain. This is in stark contrast to our mid- and backranks, where I find myself moving midrank (GR, HWM, Occ, Duelist) heroes mostly into rank 3 to slot in that extra frontliner, and rank 4 still has... Four heroes, two of which being Vestal and Runaway? And this is before considering that Leper loathes movement (he "loses" fights to combat start shuffles, doesn't synergize well with Duelist (and some others)) and is highly reliant on combo, which... Isn't something that is used a lot in the new heroes' kits, be it setting or consuming combo. He's definitely struggling, and I'm sad to see him where he is.
Also I feel like plague doctor straight up just outclasses most other rank 4s most of the time. her heal is way better than vestals, and why bother using strength consecrations when you could just do damage? Her only competition is occultist or vestal. Technically I guess you can use a few other characters in 4 but they aren't great, Itd be comp specific. Runaway is fine, but she can't do much but spam her fire bomb skill. Other than that the other characters are things that will need to move to work.
@@SecureBirch410 Occ is still a very good backranker, but I agree that he's the only hero that can truly compete PD for the spot (Or for rank 3 in case of lunge or similar shenanigans). Crusader could do it, but needs very specific partners in case he chooses to Holy Lance, so rank 3 Crus is probably preferred.
@@SecureBirch410 We gotta get the Arbalest or Musketeer back. Or just an Archer. Or some sort of mechanic or artificer who can shoot things? A Tinkerer or Trapmaker?
@@andrewreid6867arbalest was so damn good in the first game, my one of my favorites to use
Can't wait till 5 years later, someone reminds how bad your takes on the Heroes were, after the game balance and meta have already changed. Reddit will never let you forget "BH is worse HWM".
there was also a rework to healing items, now they heal flat values instead of percentages (mineral water heals 5, salve heals 12 and tonic heals 17)
also, you want the person getting the extra turn from encore take 3 stress? that's literally just instructrise duelist's upgraded "Again!" (defense stance)
Great tier list! I think it's all spot on, and even though I love Leper, I agree with your placement. I personally think he's very solid and underrated (the whole Withstand into Intimidate spam tends to be really good as its basically ignoring chop and focusing on tanking), but at the same time, he's definitely not going to be as strong as others like MAA or Crusader (Although Leper's a better tank than Crusader, he is still more selfish than Crusader's teamwide support). I genuinely don't think Leper needs much changes, at most maybe changes to paths, but everything else is generally okay, every skill has its niche (Break is a bad skill, but on Poet I found myself using it much more than chop in tangle, purge is also niche but is invaluable against librarian, bash is perfect against harvest child, etc.)
I personally see Leper as an inconsistent damage dealer, but a consistent tank. I still use chop on Tempest, since effectively there are opportunities when Leper gets to chop something for big damage, otherwise he focuses on tanking for the team. (Makes life easier as you don't have to bother generating combo for him)
Source: Leper fan in both DD1 and DD2, where Leper literally carried both my bloodmoon run and my grand slam.
I definitely noticed how squishy Crusader feels by comparison to MAA and Leper, Bulwark of Faith is really well balanced (It's not spammable, and once his block is used, Crusader doesn't have a lot of health to rely upon), but I'm loving Banneret Crusader + Ravager Hellion frontline, where both of them can taunt for the team.
Jester frankly could lose encore and he'd still be very good (certainly not the current S tier monster he is), but I do admit that Encore as an ability is really too good. Fade to Black is an absurdly overloaded skill as well, and of course finale is, as you already mentioned, amazing for how easy it is to set up (unlike DD1 where you have to charge it up for like 5 episodes like Goku). Jester still does so much, and he does it while knocking off defensive tokens.
On another note, I really think it wouldn't be gamebreaking for Vestal to have her stun back. Enemies generally have chunky stun resist, and I think Vestal deserves to have more utility than just being a buff bot, especially since they basically gutted her healing (and gave Antagoniste a stun on a stick, or gun in this case). It was boring having her spam divine comfort while stalling, but I think they overdid the changes to divine grace and comfort, both skills are currently rubbish for healing, mantra's more of an "oh shit" button than a heal, and PD heals for far more, consistently and cures, which is pretty ridiculous.
Overall, glad to finally hear your thoughts on the new characters as well as all the changes!
I'd say Duelist earns her A-Rank. Omni strike on touche, fletche hits hard and at least since my comps usually run MAA or Crusader im usually able to setup strong meditation/preparation turns pretty reliably.
Idk, maybe she's too slow in later acts but I'm seeing consistent success in acts 1-3.
I just had a run where used Crusader as a self-healing damage sponge using the Aggressor path. With PD throwing out Magnesium Rain to enable his 20% heal on melee hit, plus reap's cleave (two hits per turn = 40% heal every turn), plus, Bulwark's regen, my boy was UNKILLABLE.
I love Crus, there are so many ways to play him and it's beautiful.
*Crusader gets hit with Hollow Vessel crit*
I didnt hear no bell
As a fix/buff for the Vestal, what if she no longer consumed her tokens? So she would ramp up over time as she got her tokens, and have stronger abilities the longer a battle goes on.
I wish all characters were like Flagellant. All of their paths are useful, most of their abilities are useful, and they are just a fun character with a good gimmick.
Soon hopefully
crazy idea to buff Runaway's Survivor path:
-remove use limit on cauterize (nutty intermezzo synergy)
-either A) reduce cooldown on controlled burn by 1 or B) increase damage on melee skills or C) melee skills have a chance to apply weaken/vuln
My favorite team remains the usual suspects, and I admit that Junia in that party does some work, helping Dismas and Reynauld deal more damage and tank more efficiently with her Seraph path, but I admit her damage is basically not even worth spending a turn on and her heal overall is just bad. It's still sad
Vestal is not bad, but her healing compared to other healers is bad (even my boy Reynauld is a better healer even without banneret) but she has some fun stuff in her kit. Just need some love for her healing.
Vestal is now a buff bot. Also debuff Vestal path is cool, and no path Vestal is also unique like no path flag but no one cares(
There are so many little issues with vestal its just sad. I can think of a couple of changes id like to see.
-It would be nice if illumination generated combo like highway mans tracking shot does. Maybe just on confessor if its too much by default.
-Both Chaplin and Confessor Mantras have a weaker version of their mastery effect by default so you arent forced to burn a token to play the path at the first inn (who decided this was ok)
-Confessors hand of light should work in at least 3rd rank to make it usable.
-Id love to see confessor gain conviction in a unique way, maybe each time a negative is placed by her and teammates for example?
-Mantra for confessor can activate on any character with a negative token instead of consecrations.
-confessor judgement gets burn and 100% damage on mastery
-Chaplin Hand of Light always taunts and isnt trinket locked
-Chaplin Sanctuary keeps the stress heal on mastery (how did it somehos get nerfed on tha tank class)
-I think it would be cool if Chaplin got a method of applying guard to 2 allies instead of just one to really take advantage of her Mantra. Maybe change her defense consecration to give her the buff and guard an ally? could be cool.
-Seraph is fine but id love it if her mastered Mantra also applied the consecrations effect one last time.
Also just general buffs to divine grace and mace bash and hand of light please.
Honestly I think the duelist is amazing and might be OP, all her skills and her paths are really god and she can be plugged in any team with any of her paths. I love her as much as my boy Reynauld.
I'd have to completely disagree. She feels awfully slow and clunky to play, requires a ton of set-ups, has very little health and her damage is quite average. She isn't dealing close the same amounts as some of the go-to paths.
@@0rcd0cI agree. Too much set up for not enough pay off. Dd2 requires so much damage right out the gate or you're going to be punished. Sacrificing a turn for a set up can't really be done as much as in DD 1. Also I feel like Everytime she moves up front she gets her ass kicked. So squishy.
@@0rcd0c I think some of the paths should start her with a guard or offensive token, her trinkets help but they are awfully rare.
@@Calfa2x Yup, paths would probably be the best solution for this
Duelist is... incredibly fun. Wanderer dance from rank 3 to 2 with hand of light vestal, instructrice buffing highwayman, antagoniste sticking vulnerable tokens on command, flèche spamming with the General's dream. Also really glad that backline crusader is a thing again, it definitely doesn't feel as good as frontline crusader but I wouldn't have it any other way.
What hasn't been fun however has been my absolutely rotten luck on my new file, granted I should have grinded speed inn items but I've been losing heroes on repeat against hastened ordained ennemies forcing death door checks before I even get to play.
I feel like Runaway isn't given enough credit. Between PD levels of dot damage (dragonfly is just frontline grenade w/ combo application, firefly is backline noxious -1. Controlled Burn is also great vs multi-action bosses) positional flexibility, a very loaded utility button in Smokescreen, a strong heal that - while conditional, no region in the game is short of bleed, and underappreciated self-preservation(that albeit demands a mastery point), that while I agree a couple of her moves absolutely need some love (Hearthlight / Backdraft) I feel like her weaknesses are a bit overstated and doesn't feel like she's in a rough overall state at all imo
Nothing to add to your tierlist I think you are pretty on point and more knowledgable than me anyway.
But one thing you said that struck me is how Jester is good because all of his abilities are good making him a versatile and fun hero to play.
That's exactly what this game needs to go from a good game to a very good game.
We have asked for Hellion and runaway skills rework for so long, I hope RH wake up on this sooner than later.
When I play with Leper, I always feeI like he needs a specific set of trinkets to make it work well, like he had some kind of blind synergy missing from his kit you needed to fix with *trinkets and baubles paid for in blood*
The only thing in that direction is the cosmic trinket which makes blind tokens generate huge crit chance. But you still need combo tokens for him. There is also a new combat item which is non consumable with 4 turn cooldown but generates a combo token. I got it from the crusader's boss tough, don't know if it's possible to find it anywhere else.
He needs a reliable source of combo to function properly.
I think Crusader is S tier. He does it all. Tank, heal, stress heal, damage (direct AND DoT), dance. He's just very generically good, and that kind of flexibility means there's almost never a situation where he's bad. He's not MAA, but he's close.
I'd say Leper is B tier. He can be good, but he comes at a steep teambuilding cost, and what you get for it is about A tier strong opposed to the S-tiers that are OP out of the box. But his tanking ability and general unkillability is pretty universally useful.
Runaway has to be better than C tier. Maybe high B or even low A. She does too much. Her DoT is huge, smokebomb is loaded, and cauterize, if incidental, is a pretty thick heal.
Honestly duelist isnt rocket science u can just run antagoniste in defensive stance 24/7. Disengage turn 1 until u upgrade touche. Then every other turn between meditations u have touche to apply weaken, disengage to reposition (i really like dragonfly spam) or upgrade for double blind, the boot to disrupt enemy positioning or upgrade to stun, and flick to delete those pesky rabid dogs. All u *need* to upgrade is meditation to become an effective dodge tank. Not to mention the defensive passive lowers debuff resist which helps ur entire team instead of just duelist. Blistering bugle absolutely slaps on this path tho because u dont have to worry about switching to defensive stance before using meditation to get taunt. Now u can choose to ignore block, apply vulnerable, apply combo, and riposte.
I think i was right in thinking the high risk/high reward playstyle of intrepide doesnt have good enough reward to ever be worth using tho. I got her to +120% damage dealt, +5% crit after stalling for 10 rounds. I hit a crit flick for 30 damage, which isnt even enough to oneshot the shackles of despair......
There's something funny about seeing "she isn't rocket science" followed by a paragraph explaining it haha
@@ShuffleFM This is true. Just important to emphasize that even without using her second stance, she still feels like MAA in that she has a tool for practically every situation.
@@avayevvnon914 Unlike MAA, most of her tools are stance-limited and require set up, MAA is tanky and can work in any rank while using almost his full kit.
I can't be the only one that thinks Ravager and Berserker's names are mixed up, right? Like...
"Berserker" sounds like the one that wants to just run at you and hit you in the face, up close and personal, with a lot of raw HP to soak hits and moreso deliberately take the damage needed to get her rage +DMG boost. Conversely, "Ravager" sounds visceral, raw, contemptuous almost. You'd think that'd be the one ravaging her enemies more methodically with precision brutal hits that cause them to bleed out and die.
Mr. Shuffle,
Vestal's Seraph path is really quite good. Toss down a consecration or two, dance around them with the three other characters, fully charging her bad girl tokens every turn. I was nuking monsters with fully juiced judgement and even mace bash consecutively. I grand slammed this way and was blown away with how powerful and fun her kit really is. This all gets really out of hand with pocketwatch or jealous whisper.
Otherwise, I agree. Her other skills and paths need a lil buff.
"Toss down a consecration or two, dance around them with the three other characters"
That's exactly why she pales in comparison to other characters. She needs to jump through hoops to contribute meager damage. Meanwhile, you throw 2x Plague Grenade or 2x Sky Spaghetti and enemies start dying.
@@0rcd0c Had a feeling someone would say that. It's true, grenade brings a lot to the table, but I get bored of pressing the same buttons.
A character's value should be what they contribute to the team. I prefer character design that feels like puzzle pieces fitting together.
You're not "jumping through hoops," you're powering up your other team members proactively with attention to the turn order, while judgement casually hits for 16-30.
Seraph is a solid path. Her consecrations aren't the issue though
Duelist is the best Dps/Debuffer in the game, its honestly shocking what you can do with her and makes Leper look like a joke, her low HP is her only drawback.
Also her requiring 1-2 turns of set-ups is a drawback. She's too slow for this meta. Other character can annihilate enemies with less work put in.
Her DPS is ok, and debuffs are situational since are stance dependent.
I agree with leper being a joke but her setup really harms her, one improvement would be having some of her paths start with a stance.
@@Calfa2x Agree, starting with a stance would help a lot
@@0rcd0c There's a trinket for that. You start in defensive
I love Leper, still entirely feel like he's a good character as I did use him for my Grand Slam run, but I agree with his ranking here. Unfortunately, he feels way too stagnant right now because unless you really want to play off meta, it seems like every kit is always carrying Chop, Reflection, and Solemnity and then you get two whole choices on other moves you want, which usually end up being Intimidate or Withstand.
I would say either lower the blind chance or up his lower damage threshold so you don't get those low rolls through blind.
I think the most annoying character gimmick has to be Leper.
The Blind occurs way too often IMO.
Leper shouldn't start the battle with Blind,
and also make it 50% and 25% chance to blind after attacking.
Or maybe give him a skill that gives him blind immunity for 2 - 3 round or something.
I’d be curious to see how you setup skills for certain paths. How do you build tank robber? What are crusader setups and order of skills to use: upgrade. Your stuffs amazing thank you for all your content
I'll make a build vid soon, sounds like a great idea. Tank robber is really basic. Plug her into 1 or 2, give her the damage options you want, absinthe, dead of night and repartee.
@@ShuffleFM ty. I’m feeling like a dummy trying to figure out crusader.
Just started playing the game on console, so thanks for this list. I am enjoying the game, but I do miss a lot of aspects from the first game. DD2 feels a lot more difficult once you get past the first expedition. The upgrades are much more obtuse in this game.
Runaway is a worse crusader. Runaway has a worse heal, no stress heal, worse melee, requires tokens. Its not 100% apples to apples but.. crusader even has a back rank set up for fire damage and support. AND crusader isnt the best character in the game.. doesnt that say something about Runaway? Goodness.
S tier is the unannounced upcoming juicy expansion that fundamentally changes how you play the game.
I wish front line vestal would get some love.
They really should start buffing characters instead of nerfing them. Vestal and runaway are a joke and Hellion barely exists but clearly lowering MAA's damage is truly more important
Hellion is pretty strong on ravager, really simple play pattern but she demolishes some enemies with howling end or iron swan, really good against confession 2
I think for the vestal healing if they change it in the next update that it should replenish flat number heals for example instead of percentages which will be a nerf to tanks but a buff for low health heroes, divine Grace should heal 15 hp and with 2 conviction tokens heal additional 5 hp and full conviction heals another 5 hp so in total a hero is receiving 25 health and should have a cooldown of 1 turn on mastery with this new healing added to her kit makes her a reliable healer similiar to occultist
did you just call occultist a "reliable" healer? damn we must be playing different games then XD
@@sekira4516 Occultist is a better healer than her in my opinion too
@@mateusz11123 sure his healing high-rolls more often but he also has the RNG factor and meme of Crit heal 0 + bleed. I love using Occultist as a healer but honestly I'd argue Junia has a better heal because it's consistent in how much it heals. Occultist is strong as a support and DPS with Burning Stars, his healing aint where he shines.
@@sekira4516 You're right. I like him also cause his healing has unlimited uses with no cooldown
What I learned from this tier list: play what you want.
Exactly. Everything is viable. These discussions are for fun and to get people thinking more than anything.
Honestly feel Duelist if a safe A if not with possibility to love up or down (maybe up cause I think her skill ceiling is high that usually means she has room for optimization and skilled play to make her even better)
Mister shuff 17,000 of us DO have joint custody of Reynauld :)
When it comes to duelist, I say give her some more time, you guys haven’t played with her long enough to understand her to make a call on whether she’s good or not. So for that reason, if there was a “Unsure” tier, I’d put her in there.
They should add a flame that disables all positive tokens and nerfs any and all things that are good in the game, caps hero damage to like 10, caps the stagecoach to one wheel and one armor, disables pets, limits trinket slots to 1 and call it the torturers flame. With an achievement the true masochists.
….no
I just want Bounty Hunter at the crossroads.
I miss my boy.
I run crusader GR Hwyman and Duelest. In a dance team with the crocodile pet. Some of the longer boss fights I'll have an extra 50% dmg by the end.
Coming from a player that has done a moderate amount of play (120 hours), HWM feels like a light S simply because of his target flexibility mixed with kit. I play safer than perhaps I need to, but for many situations, the safety of having 3 people able to hit any particular rank compared to 2 people is a big selling point. HWM slots in easily as that guy who might not have the most diverse kit, but does something that is always impactful (non-type damage and just hitting) extremely well.
He also is easy to make decisions for and use, while someone like Flagellant (or MaA to a much lesser extent) requires game knowledge and/or forethought. Press button, hit anywhere, thing go boom or shrivel up.
Any chance you could (or did) discuss your personal picks for standout Positive Quirks like The Jinx?
I can make a quirk vid, definitely
Why doesn't anyone talk about how helpful Mantra is? On Seraph it becomes a 50% health with no health requirement. Quite helpful when you have multiple characters on the ground.
I agree on vestal. I tried to get usual suspects achievement. And she contributed little to the team. At best she removed dodge and gave crits. Other than that she mostly took damage for the team with guard.
If you get the +6 speed trinket she's decent but that's a stupid standard for a character that's still mid
Speed wasn't the problem. She just didn't add anything to the team. I had rogue HWM with Banneret for Point blank combo. Pd and Crusader had backline and healing covered. That left vestal having almost nothing to do other than buff and guard.
Love your content Shuffle, it helped me a LOT with DD1. Was wondering if now is a good time to get into DD2? I was kind of waiting for the games dlc to be released and or a sale
Base game is on sale right now iirc and the DLC came out. Very good time to get started :)
I have a question regarding Occultist’s Ritualist path. I’ve heard over and over how good it is for the curses, but I’ve also heard over and over again how this game is driven by DPS and “set up” paths aren’t really that hot (such as Hellion). What makes Ritualist worth using with that in mind?
He sets up really fast compared to other paths he's got a decent speed so he mixes well with all kinds of set up plans he's got decent damage still and healing really set up becomes a problem when your entire team is doing it one character doing it is completely fine
Ritualist gets some strong upsides. The curses dropping 2 tokens by default and the debuff pierce are very turn efficient. His heal is also not trash, and malediction melts bosses.
Jester Encore + Seraph double consecration + dance team is pretty good. Vestal D tier without jester agreed
They nerfed that though, extra actions no longer speed up cooldowns
I think legitimately if breakthrough had bleed on berzerker then there would be less problems with the bleed skill synergy. Currently all her dancing options for going up don’t do any damage or bleed and you just always want to take toe to toe mastered for the utility over anything else. It’s legitimately disappointing to see how rigid building hellion has gotten because of how her paths work and I just wish they would have more of her skills change based on paths. Why doesn’t carcass add some utility to her, like maybe make raucous revelry better or something. Rn she just feels like ravager only, why even pick another path unless you’re going for a gimmick team built around her. Like I’ve won with berzerker multiple times but it’s always with jester or duelist doing all the heavy lifting for her movement and lost damage without ravager.
Haven't watched the video yet, but I'm gonna call it : Runaway is S+ tier
How do you even nerf take aim at this point. IF you take the 2 crit tokens from this move you basically make it useless. the 2 crit tokens are basically what makes this more useful than hitting with an attack for 3 turns. It does feel kind of unfair that this move has only benefits while leper has to take vuln token just to get a strength token and a low chance for a crit.
Maybe change it to : take aim gives : speed dodge crit / take aim + gives : speed dodge strength crit and 50% chance for crit the next 2 turns. slow this move by giving it a longer CD like 2 or 3 turns so you only use it 1 or 2 times in short fights. that way you can either keep the ball rolling with grapeshot or use it on big hits like point blank. basically make the double crit a maybe not a guarantee.
I feel like Duelist is getting the short hand with her 1 crit buff
Good tierlist. Well done and good reasoning
Would have put vestel a bit higher. I use her mainly to buff and it works really well
I love Bonnie. But I can't disagree, she needs some love.
I think the duelist is a C : Yes she can do amazing stuff BUT she has too many conditions. As a dancing character, she has to be in the right spot AND she needs to be on the right style to do what she has to do for the team.
Agreed. Great potential, way too finnicky to be consistent, good at hiding behind dodge+ but limited contribution to the team overall.
Chop feels so underwhelming. In DD1 it was my favorite leper ability. Now it does like 6-8 dmg
ngl, not using vestal actually saved me........ plague doctor is so much better, and I can fit better stress healers on my team too!
Too bad I lost two of my heroes on the mountain boss cause I forgot to switch skills XD
Runaway got some buffs in the beta branch today.
Man, I wish Leper was higher, he's the one thing that's saved a lot of my runs and it hurts to see him so low QWQ
Low tier never means unusable in dd :)
That thumbnail shuff.
i know you give explemple of team and build , but, can you make a compilation of them ? now that we can save our compo ? please QwQ
what does the orange/dark yellow text mean for hero abilities? I noticed some only get that when you put a mastery point in them, but i dont know what it affects
Pretty sure that's just highlighting what changes when you upgrade
@@Beefyfacethat's where I'm confused, its the same language as before the upgrade, just darker text basically
I disagree on Vestal « Divine comfort ». It is an easy snowball perk. It’s allready one of the only consistant healing for squichy heroes (and there are a lot of them).
Plus it is really easy to find her item that basicly 2x the healing on this spell making it heal for 15 hps on / 3 turns for the 4 heroes. It makes the all team invulnerable to most dots like this spell is to me the best healing spell of the game by far. Easy healing, consitant, and giving space to more agro plays.
And when you see the other party healing perks in the game she’s doing really well. If you ever tried to play plague doctor as solo healer it’s just hawfull. And the occultist is doing terrible to.
It's been 7 months-ish
Anything of note changed since you uploaded this?
I'll update it after we get the next patch :)
leper is S tier despite in game performance because he's the biggest chad in the party
Baby Tick the only team I need
Nightsword GR with duelist is S Tier Fun
Duelist is so much work for mediocre payoff. Unlucky
True, HWM is better in this regard, same Leper, they can set themselves up in better action economy.
Struggling so hard to get Usual Suspects to succeed at an expedition.
Needs alchemist and sharpshot sadly to be super consistent
and the furtive bounty hounter, so easily forgotten
S Tier lol
I think you may be sleeping on Seraph Vestal. She's incredibly effective in dance teams who can activate consecrations multiple times, and even without that she can drop a +50% heal on two ranks with Mantra. No tokens and no threshold. I agree with everything else you said - She is pitifully weak in 3/4 of her paths - But Seraph is genuinely an exception. I just did my own Grand Slam with a Vestal-Duelist-Crusader-MAA dance team and she was generating massive value the whole run.
i just played "the wall" comp as it's known in game, (vestal, MAA, crusader, leper) and i just had them rotating between the lance and shield bash getting two tokens for vestal on most turns, i thought it was such a cool way to improve her efficacy and take even more advantage of her unique buff conditions, i'm really not the most experienced but this was one of the more fun and even effective teams i tried out
And of course 5 hours after this Redhook put out a patch buffing Runaway lmao.
Why this man is always saying ''why they didn't nerf this ,when nerf that'...' this is not League of legends or some other multiplayer that needs nerfs constantly, but instead just buff the other characters so they are at least as good as the others. There are many skills that are bad compared to others and they could fix that instead of nerfing that would be much better imo.
It's easier to nerf a couple outliers that are blatantly too strong. The game still has to account for its own balance vs the monsters. Most of us want to be challenged.
Buffing what's weak could be a bunch of things at once and would cause more issues if it was already okay. It's an inefficient use of time.
@@ShuffleFM Ok, thanks for your answer but maybe you are too good at the game, I recently unlocked chapter five, and I think this game is harder than DD1. Maybe for you some heroes are op or whatever but I see that some heroes are potato compared to others, like leper, some skills of runaway are almost useless and vestal heal less than a crusader! Probably need to fix that too.
Thanks for your videos you are helping a lot.
Not me trying to make Vestal good the last two weeks and then finding this video :(
I've been waiting for this
2/ my top 3 favorites in S tier with Reynauld (the third) in A lfg
some of these heroes just need you to have the right trinkets. which is my big gripe about DD2. their trinket system is awful. not being able to keep trinkets as a meta progression sucks. like runaway would be an amazing healer if i could keep trinkets and put a bunch of trickets that bleed your heroes in various situations. honestly i'm not really happy with how the meta progression feels in dd2. i dunno how to describe it. but most roguelike games you feel a sense of belonging or like "this is what i'm growing" kind of with their meta progression. in dd2, everything feels like it resets way too often. sometimes the meta progression is detrimental, like with unlocked extra pets. now it's a roll and you can get nothing but crap pets in your selection... feels like regression not progression. upgrading the heroes is about the only decent feeling meta progression in this game. unlocking items and trinkets sometimes feels annoying cause it just means more stuff that can take up space for useful stuff. especially since you can't sell stuff (unless you can and i'm just stupid and haven't noticed how to do it). i guess upgrading like the stagecoach and the bonuses to scouting and what not is ok. but yea, just hero upgrades plus the stagecoach/exploring upgrades are about the only progression you get really.
Video invalid with the new Runaway buffs you should redo and repost JEEZ
I just unlocked Leper and he stood by himself against that fucking grabby goobler of the deep. Self healing and massive damage from time to time solo almost won the boss fight.
Has he been buffed since this video?.
Nope lol
why did you do this to x character
Man at arms nerfs were pointless lol, hes still the best.
i just woke up thanks for a vid SHUFF!
Hellion is now meta, and vestal can give free crits,
Give it time... When Vestal was the new thing everybody was praising how good she was, how broken seraph was and so on. Now people see her for what she is, a slow healer with bad heals and bad support skills and no damage...
Duelist is going to be the same thing. She has a very convoluted and slow playstyle that does not go well with the game (not unlike carcass), a damage dealer that only deals damage after round 3, not even close to the damage HMW can deal or GR for that matter. Duelist is a worse GR at best with worse reach. I am all in for interesting and complex playstyles but duelist feels like an overdesigned character that does not do well in the current "Meta of the game", which is finish every non boss fight by round 3 and the game is a breeze, unfortunately. Instructrice is her best path, great playstyle. Intrepide is nice on paper but it only needs a dot to break the whole thing, kinda funny...
That said, Crusader is cool, middle of the pack hero, 2 good paths and 2 bad paths. Poet Leper is the best tank of the game, the dude deserves a B, at least.
Where is headhunter?
I actually clapped like a fucking seal when you ranked the Flagellant what is wrong with me
Crazy how Vestal has become the worst healer in the game by far