Precisely because Glen Loury sometimes says things that make me squirm in discomfort, that are nonetheless the truth, I am coming to respect him as one of the foremost thinkers of our time. I characterized him as a conservative in a previous post, but I can't credit most mainstream conservatives with being as free and genuine. He is not beholden to any ideology and will backtrack on himself when he sees the necessity. I admire that immensely.
You guys remind me of the 4 or 5 really great teachers or professors I had during my 16 or 17 years of schooling. As good as the woman who got me from a day-dreaming C math student to an exited, dedicated Algebra II student. Man, that woman was a miracle worker! The other thing I remember about her was she seemed to love her life.
@Kofi Campbell: That word. Project. It keeps cropping up. It stuck out as incongruous most recently for me when Jussie Smollet was tearfully denying accusations of hoax on MSM. He said, "...there's no way I could ever do that to my friends and family, my brothers and sisters, there's no way I'd hurt "The Project" like that..." What Project was he talking about?
There's an interesting form of evangelical preaching, used by people like Ray Comfort, that goes something like, "Have you ever told a lie? Then you're a liar. Have you ever taken something not yours? Then you're a thief. So, you're a bad person, now let me sell you the cure for your abject wickedness..." This reminds me very much of that style of evangelizing, and evangelizing it most certainly is.
I have listened to these gentlemen for sometime. I would like to see a debate between them and the members of the 1619 Project and the like. It is all well and good to put out this valuable information, however to truly demonstrate the lapse in woke thinking I think a good Intelligence Squared style debate is necessary.
Orion Holder I am against debates, but I'd certainly like to see a panel discussion with them. But Progressives tend to favor echo chambers, so I dont think thats going to happen.
Apologies if I'm preaching to the choir here: If the intellectual underpinnings of the 1619 project are governed by critical race theory - which it appears at a glance that it most certainly is - then debate is forbidden. It would suggest "epistemic exploitation," the notion that engaging with opposing viewpoints only serves to sustain oppressive discourses that keep whiteness in power. It's another form of exploiting people of color, this time in the realm of discourses. Asking them for "epistemic adequacy," or to require them to know and demonstrate what they're talking about, is another form of oppression. CRT is unapologetically anti-liberalist in this regard. It finds the free exchange of ideas to be inherently flawed, unsuccessful, and "the tools of the master." That's why so many people, when attempting a legitimate critique or disagreement with CRT, are automatically labeled as racist. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. No other way at looking at any social interactions than through the lens of power as rooted in the historical master/slave, white/black, opressor/oppressed binaries.
Discovered you, today! What a welcomed infusion of light into this dark world that veils truth beneath ceaseless narratives of lies. Knowing you exist makes breathing less laborious. Thank God for you!
With Kobe Bryant, I read a lot of the articles about the accusations against him, and I find them credible. The fact that no one can meaningfully discuss his death without bringing up that he was a sexual predator is a good thing because it communicates to other athletes that 'no matter what you do in your sport, if you are a monster who abuses their power/fame, you will never escape from the stigma." (unless of course they make a very good apology and work to repair the damage they caused.)
I feel Glen captures the nuance when he points out that the national narrative is not about truth, it is about texture and warmth. John's insistence on the 1619 project being imperfect in it's truth claims makes no attempt to hold the happy talk narrative to the same standard. If Slavery was an influence, and clearly it influenced everything, in the revolutionary war, this discussion needs to spend a decade or two on the table for discover and exploration, only then will we have even a chance to appreciate the truth claim.
Glen and John thank you for presenting the narrative of intelligence! I am a 72 yo "American" of Jewish heritage! Did not know that until 15 y ago. I grew up with watching my father serve his customers with respect and honor! Never in all those years did I see him treat anyone differently because of their color! I didn't have to be taught how to treat a member of the Human race, (the only race there is), as a member of the human race. I am proud to have heard your insightful thoughts of the Good and Evil condition that we are in. Since the Garden and the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" WE HAVE BEEN PLAGUED BY THE EVIL Knowledge infiltrating our lives. According to scripture there are 73 times +or- a few that say "keep my commandments". The two reasons where this: 1. So that the Creator knows we love Him, 2. So that we will have a good life with each other. How simple! We both decide not to break the last 6 commandments and we will have good lives one with another. May the Lord of Creation bless you both, keep you and protect you. May He look upon you both as a good father looks upon his children. and give you both His grace and Peace. (Shalom)
Major kudos to Jon for the 1600 Pennsylvania avenue analogy. Pro opera singer here, and I remember singing "take care of this house" during my undergraduate studies. Love that you're a theatre lover.
At 31 minutes, the word is succor and it is pronounced like sucker (roughly). I don't know why but it practically sent a shiver down my spine hearing soo-kor.
Can always trust Glenn to take John's (usually) more charitable - charity where it is often not deserved, mind you - and diplomatic statements and make them more biting. You can see the subtle look of mild disapproval that comes over Glenn's face when he thinks John is handling someone or some group with kid gloves.
Fascinating discussion and commentary. Thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts with the rest us who may not have the depth of understanding, or the ability/inclination to acquire same, necessary to understand the complexities of these issues.
I love the musical instrument poster on the back wall. And the scary thing about turn of the century "progressives" like Wilson is that they were also very supportive of the Eugenics movement.
Just found your series today; it is refreshing to hear your perspectives and I thank you for your time and hard work. I wonder what your thoughts are on this country being founded as a settler colonial state, as opposed to simply a state founded upon slavery, and the fact that slavery in this hemisphere as well as what became the United States began with the abduction and sale of Indigenous people, and continued far beyond the Emancipation Proclamation and into the 20th century. The 1619 Project obviously omits this in its attempt to situate 1619 as the foundational date of this country. If that were the case, what would that mean for Black complicity, as co-founders of this country, in the displacement, genocide, and theft of Indigenous bodies and land? Thanks again!
Regarding black homicide rates in the US, the most compelling hypothesis is that a subgroup of blacks still carry an honor code derived from Southern whites, who got the code from Scot-Irish immigrants from the borderland of Scotland and England. Think Hatfields and McCoys. I've had the opportunity to observe this in practice first in the 70s South, then recently at my mechanic's shop.
Personal agency has been replaced by selfishness and entilement. Life isnt perfect so who can i cast blame on. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the complicated past but to simplify it to villains & victims removes us of the ability to become heroes.
Nikole Hannah Jones is a beautiful, brilliant Black woman who wrote a magnificent book. There is no lie in her book. The southern colonies had different feelings about the Revolutionary War. They didn’t want to lose their slaves.
One of the saddest parts about this is that using the Project's narrative to exculpate present-day discrepancies means making a false dichotomy between just-world and conspiracist views, excluding the messy middle ground of complex confluences of historical processes disadvantaging certain groups by no one's conscious plan.
This is such a wonderful discussion, I just found some videos featuring Glenn Loury today and latter came to find these joint discussions between Glen and John. Thank you so much for doing this, this truly is some wonderful discussion. This is so helpful because at times I feel so alone, so disconnected from others for what I'm feeling about many of the current racial discussions. God Bless you both and please continue to do these shows. May you both stay safe and well during these pandemic times.
What is puzzling about the 1619 Project is why they chose that date. It is well known that the first landing of Spanish explorers in what became the continental U.S., occured on June 24, 1521, a few years later to also become the site of the first African slave REVOLT on these shores - almost a century BEFORE 1619. If the ostensible purpose of the project is, or was, to commemorate and promote interest inthe introduction of the first slaves here, why not chose the earlier date? Or am I missing something?
Plus, it wasn't until later in the 17th century that slavery of Africans in the colonies became encoded into law. Between then and 1619, the status of Africans brought to the colonies was in a state of flux. Some were enslaved, while others were indentured servants who earned their freedom and went on to acquire property, with some having their own indentured servants.
What is the economic productivity of prisoner labor? On the subject of the incarceration being the new slavery wouldn’t the economic output of the prisoners have to be significant? Otherwise it’d just be incarceration. Slaves were not caged up and removed from society. They were in society and made to work.
First I must say I have much respect and adulation for the both of you. Further I am very jealous of your relationship with each other. What I have gained from watching the two of you , who are clearly intellectual elite, is a better grasp of what that can truly mean. Both of you do a good service to us by raising the concept of intellectual elite in your discussions. While actually describing how one becomes so. In my industry and profession I am an intellectual elite, in the sense my life experience and continued growth in my knowledge base of the industry I am considered a leader and innovator in the field, but that comes with 28 years of experience. Further over the years I have taken it upon myself to become more learned in history, science and politics. In doing so my knowledge base has grown experientially. I am in no way as articulate as the two of you are, nor able to bring as much additional information both pro & con. As I have become older and as my base of knowledge has grown increasingly so has my understanding. In my later years finding it difficult in having conversations with life long friends. Not because we don't agree or argue in fact we don't, it's that I am unable to have the types of conversations you two do so well they tend to not want to have deep conversations . I get the sense is because they understand little or are unable to articulate a point of view/ Because of this I find myself isolated for deep conversations that I desire. Lastly allow me to say listening to the two of you over the last 2 years has changed my view on the concept of intellectual elites. Because I have kept myself in a continuing education life style and occasionally come in contact with many who think themselves intellectually elite only to discover many seem to think because they are well read that makes them elite because they can not articulate their concepts nor reason with counter information. This is definitely something both of you posse in a way I can only be envious of. Your knowledge base is large but more impressive is your reasoning and logic skills. Which I have come to understand can only be achieved through reading and trying to understand differing points of view. I applaud you both for the great service you do by publicly having your conversations. You set a high bar and while we don't agree on everything we agree on most or should I say I come to agreeing with you more and more as I continue to listen in. Thank you!
What sane person promotes the idea that they are evil? What sane national culture flagellates itself incessantly and teaches its children to do the same?
Corey Ander The thing is, not only are we asked to say we’re evil, we can’t then criticize the evilness in others without being called bigots. I wouldn’t mind questioning if I’m evil if others didn’t, but they don’t. Only Western nations can be evil axiomatically.
@@coreyander286 I more than entertain that notion--it's between me and God. Likewise, I see both the spark of divinity and the mark of self-absorbed evil and deception in others. What is the point of all the public confession and boot licking? Absolution that will never be obtained that way.
...thanks again for further illuminating these issues -- intensely intelligent individuals brimming with courage. Too rare in this media thought-mandated time. Plus: McWhorter's Bugs Bunny mug grants him instant credibility, to little old me. Raise up those voices. Where open discussion prevails, truths arise.
John's read in Reason was excellent. As usual, it was so intellectual it made my head hurt, but I always walk away from one of John's pieces being moved by the analysis. I'm glad to see Glenn and John debunk this crap since if I did it, I'd be deemed racist for exhibiting #WrongThink. You two are the best. Your respective students should be crawling across campus on their knees to enroll in your classes - I know I would.
Thank God for Abraham Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation. Historically slavery was a globally accepted practice by other countries with many races and nationalities involved long before the US was even established. As a developing nation President Lincoln (formerly of the Whig party became a Republican) was against slavery. Slavery was popular primarily in the southern Democratic states. The refusal of the southern states to accept the new mandate led to the deadliest war in America’s history. More men died in the civil war than any other war in US history. Teach your children well.
Revisiting this conversation. Today in 2022 we now apparently have “black” washing of history. Will we ever acknowledge the gains that have been accomplished and established in current law? Or is that detrimental to the movement for reprerations? And are reparations the sole and ultimate goal?
The 1619 Project was a mish mash. Some of the essays had bizarre assumptions. However she at least mentioned convicts and children without being dismissive of their suffering.
John, you mention Tim Wise in the video. I once tried to find a video of him debating with someone conservative of stature. Do you know of any that you could recommend?
I'm am so ignorant and very ashamed that I haven't sought-after the opportunity to hear these gentlemen speak before or even give ppl with different opinions and ideas that might not be " mainstream " or popular a thought. My mind has come alive listening go these intellectual giants. You have gotten me addicted to thinking about race , class and just how much time we spend reheating the same soup to no serviceable point . How does that stop i wonder.
To the left, someone even being accused of sexual assault, is more important, then that person horrifically dying in a helicopter crash with their daughter. The horrific shortening of their life is not enough.
Gee, they sound like I do when I point out the Civil War was fought to end slavery, but some of my students say no, "it was for states rights." The 1619 Project is saying our Revolution is just saying our Revolution is for America's "states rights" to keep slavery, not for Americans fight to regain their national born rights as Englishmen.
Some Americans. For Virginia slavery was at that time a burden. For South Carolina and Georgia, more so. What is more general was the American settlers desire to control the vast resources of North America.
It's unfortunate that there are two beautiful stories which are seldom recounted in America today. The white soldiers of the Civil War who fought to "make men free", and that of the black soldiers who have fought for this country despite facing discrimination in certain corners of this nation. We have a history of people fighting and dying for each other and for this country, in truly selfless ways, but we seldom refer to it today.
I would love to hear you guys leave a reference to Jason Blair into this conversation... also I am not an historian either, and I will go googling after I post this but am I not to believe the story that Jefferson and Sally Hemmings were in love? Is it possible that he would have granted anyone freedom who wanted it and yet where else might they rather be then with the fucking president of a country in paradise? Who’s to say there isn’t a story about a Jefferson slave, Who approached him with a desire to go look for his family somewhere else and wanted to be free? Is it really hard to believe that an occurrence like that may have happened after Jefferson said something like “are you sure about this? It’s dangerous out there? Maybe I could write a few letters and find out....” Conversations like this would’ve been kept discreetly hidden from any public writings or even kept letters I could see communication like that may be being really frightening and dangerous... I mean who’s to say people weren’t even more unreasonable than they are today with each other, only of course in completely different ways. While on the subject… where would someone look for stories about slaves who killed their owners? Surely there must be one story like that? Doesn’t it seem strange that’s an hour of googling brings up nothing well one of thing but it was very hard to read… hard to follow.... OK I just had a flashback. Circa 1989, in Charlottesville I stayed for a short time on an estate that was designed/built by Jefferson. Wo. Something just stopped me from sharing this because it occurred to me it would be taken out of context and held against him. Damn. That’s the second time today something made me clam up, I don’t like that feeling at all. Like it’s a feeling of danger it makes me feel like I wouldn’t mind seeing the New York Times go out of business... and I don’t say that just because of the 1619 project although it’s a good reason... I say that because I called an old high school friend who is a journalist there for help, about five years ago... well I had this for lack of better word cartel style conspiracy have an entire community working to take my home out from under me because I had been videotaping heroin dealers and such, not because they care to stick my nose in anyone’s business normally, but they started threatening me, and then they started entertaining themselves with threatening me.... The condo board who rented to the drug dealers or maintained the gun dealers apartment who hadn’t even paid common charges for 10 years blah blah blah... they created a $26,000 fine, Alene, the deal was made with the owner that they would remove it if they kicked me out… That had been my home for 16 years and I was terrorized by people who weren’t even paying and I know this because the bank started coming after them anyway the point is I didn’t know where to turn I was the police and the mayor we’re all of the same high school alumni mentality.... I mean this is a place where a black felon who is charged with murdering her own three-year-old, although the boyfriend took the brunt of the punishment, the person like that will have no problem finding themselves employed by one of the local elementary schools.... and that same person will threaten to beat me up for asking her why I had overheard her saying she wanted to punch me down the stairs.... as if it’s so crazy of me to want to attempt some version of peace of mind in the apartment building I have to walk in and out of every day.... but I digress… I couldn’t believe there is nothing I can do and so I reached out to the New York Times at first I tried to call a few anonymous people to say “I have evidence concrete evidence of this illegal activity going on in the form of photographs, even emails to the police, license plate numbers and recorded conversations of buying and selling at the door quote50? Oh man you said it was 15!” Maybe it sounds awful that I was recording all of this but I just couldn’t understand why no one would help me, I assume they thought I was making it up… I even recorded a prostitute telling either boyfriend or a pimp that she had a plan to get them some money where she was going to take another prostitutes “Coke money“ and that prostitute left in an ambulance a couple hours later… I called the police that night I recorded the entire event from the pimp who live next-door to me sweetly saying “thank you Officer what hospital is she going to”this is the same guy you were here talking about “beating bitches“.... anyway if this sounds weird? What can I say? I’m a crazy person for trying to use whatever tools available like an SOS thinking somebody’s gonna come to my rescue because everybody else is crying about their children overdosing on heroin and here’s a bunch of people who not only sell meth and crack and heroin but Rob delis... my head starts swimming when I think about all of the things that I heard in the ridiculous have it I fell into of leaving my damn phone recording everything all the time.... anyway my phone call to my friend whose name I’m not gonna mention obviously was brief, I think she called me back but barely and just said she couldn’t help me to be fair she was a financial writer but still this is someone I grew up with in a small town and you would think people would care about each other but she was more afraid to even associate, at least that’s how it felt. Then of course the other writers never even called me back totally ignored me I still have the phone numbers in my phone I Cats just because I’m a pack rat.... no one is interested? No one is interested and asking a police department why they even have the information given to them on record, describing my information as if it was imaginary and then about three years later it was all over LoHud, they even had pictures of the same guys I had pictures of, the same car, the same license plate the same chief of police quoted as saying “this crew was responsible for a lot of overdose deaths”... can you imagine? Not only was everybody OK with those overdose deaths but they were just is OK with watching someone unfairly having their home ripped out from under them.... because they were busy writing about what? What was going on 2015? Compared to today little to nothing? Yeah so that hypocrisy… I’m gonna go refresh my memory of the Jason Blair saga
Between 24.00 and around 25.00...John is "fucking" brilliant. He is the non-racist. He will not accept special treatment for black intellectualism. Great!
As usual, that was some good stuff. (Glenn, please don't do another show like the one right before this one. We can find 50000 flavors of that on Twitter every day.)
The new england states where the states who where the biggest supporters. Of the revolution. and where among the first states to abolish slavery both sides of the revolution supported slavery and relied on black troops to one degree or another.
The French at that time were about Slavery were they not? Did they not fund the Continental army? Wasn't George Washington a slave owner? Didn't the British take over French colonies that had Slavery in America? There was a TREATY after the ARW. Notice that after the ARW, slavery slowly started to deteriorate from the North. Notice that there was somewhat a French society in the South which had Slavery. The British and the people that eventually stayed here wanted to impose their way of life on the people that were already in America and that was to get rid of slavery.
The sad part is the fourth of july speech Douglass gave. And how Howard zinn cuts out every thing fredrick said about how 4th was great day for all of us. But you guys need to understand you are free not everyone. And fredrick believed our system to be pure. Bu zinn tells none o this in his speech he gives every 4th with celebs.
Anyone who thinks race no longer matters in America should note the vast difference in views between Glenn's McWhorter shows, and literally everything else on Bloggingheads. It's like a 6 to 1 or more ratio.
The whole premise that the Revolution was about preserving slavery is false on its face. By 1800 the only northern state that hadn't abolished slavery was NJ - which followed 4 years later. (Never heard of nor saw that Gasoline Alley comic before John said, "look it up." It's ghastly.)
Let's be fair and honest. The American Revolution wasn't about any one thing. For many, it wasn't about slavery. But for some, it was about slavery, at least partly or else inseparably from other issues. It's similar to other issues claimed as explaining the American Revolution. One working class revolutionary veteran, when asked in older age, stated most of those who fought didn't give a flying fuck about tea and taxes. They risked their lives for democratic freedom and self-governance. They had always governed themselves and they planned on continuing to do so, no matter what anyone else thought.
Still, whether about taxes or freedom or slavery, the entire colonial system of all the empires were enmeshed and dependent on the slave trade. That was particularly true in the American colonies with slave plantations, slave markets, and docks for the slave trade. All of that was very much about the conflicts in the colonies, if also involving other factors. It would be naive to dismiss the key and central importance of slavery to nearly everything in the colonies. And indeed it did come as a major factor in the Revolutionary War with the British government offering freedom to American slaves, the greatest of threats to the slave order. Still, that isn't to dismiss some revolutionaries opposed slavery and specifically sought it's abolition. Thomas Paine was a famous example and no one could deny his having been morally principled, even to the point of being willing to die fighting for the rights and freedom of strangers and foreigners. And Benjamin Franklin eventually came around to the abolitionist position. There were even a few slaveholders who freed their slaves prior or during the Revolution, such as the Quaker John Dickinson. But let's be realistic. Very few colonists at the time were directly, openly, and strongly opposed to slavery. Most were probably fine with slavery, as a default position of social norms and the social order. Part of the reason many American colonists fought were for other equally horrendous reasons. Unsurprisingly, few humans then or now were willing to sacrifice self-interest and privilege on behalf of those perceived as different from them. Consider the land issue. The British Empire had official treaties with numerous native nations. The government, in honoring those agreements, tried to keep colonists off of native lands. But many colonists were outraged that they were not allowed to invade native territory, steal native natural resources, and claim ownership of native lands. That was undeniably a major contributing factor to getting so many colonists in support of revolt. For this reason, many Native American tribes joined the British against the colonists. As with the slaves, the American Revolution was not for indigenous freedom ---- quit the opposite, in fact. Even most of the working class revolution had no intentions to offer freedom to non-Europeans. And so, stated or unstated, most of them essentially were fighting for slavery and genocide. I have a right to speak on such matters. Multiple lines of my ancestry go back to the American colonies and American Revolution, not to mention both sides of the American Civil War. Also, I have ancestors who were slaveholders (before and after the American Revolution) and Indian fighters. I even have an ancestor who was born in native territory before the Revolution, which made her one of the first anchor babies.
Its always about the money John. Black people were the money. I like the way Glenn roasts John with his imaginary devils advocate friends. Its not me who thinks you are being insane John, its them.
Its incredible that slavery is only considered the greatest sin in America. Although slavery was acceptable around every part of the world. Islamic world, Europe, Asian world... And the other thing, anti-abolition movement was the strongest in America. Nobody over here said anything close to anti-abolition.
Ms. Jones doesn't seem to take feedback well. I see the 1619 Project, as an icebreaker. Nicole Hannah Jones might have accepted historical perspectives from historians. She took a back seat in the debate on CRT, breaking down how it is not designed to assign guilt. She did not. Finally to cape for Liz Cheney who voted with Trump 95% of the time., I called her on it and she blocked me.
![Reparations | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]](/img/1.gif)
Do you guys know how truly remarkable you are? What a shining example of truth and reason.
John McWhorter, voice of reason. Could watch him or read him every day.
He's a real genius.
I love you for loving John!
I actually do read and hear him every day :)
@@SvenErik_Lindstrom3 Well you have good taste :-)
The two of you in conversation are the absolute best thing about RUclips. Thank you.
@Guido Watch out you might swell their heads.
As a Latin American living in North Philadelphia, I need to say THANK YOU to you both. I wholeheartedly appreciate your conversations.
I love you!
Precisely because Glen Loury sometimes says things that make me squirm in discomfort, that are nonetheless the truth, I am coming to respect him as one of the foremost thinkers of our time. I characterized him as a conservative in a previous post, but I can't credit most mainstream conservatives with being as free and genuine. He is not beholden to any ideology and will backtrack on himself when he sees the necessity. I admire that immensely.
Well said! Wish there were more people like you!
Sometimes I just don't care what conclusion somebody reaches...Because the discussion is frank and in good faith
What a great far ranging show. This was one of your best dialogues. I learned quite a lot. Thank you both!
You guys remind me of the 4 or 5 really great teachers or professors I had during my 16 or 17 years of schooling. As good as the woman who got me from a day-dreaming C math student to an exited, dedicated Algebra II student. Man, that woman was a miracle worker! The other thing I remember about her was she seemed to love her life.
I love these discussions. Surgical and beautiful
It was obvious from the beginning that the project was meant to influence Government policy
@Kofi Campbell: That word. Project. It keeps cropping up.
It stuck out as incongruous most recently for me when Jussie Smollet was tearfully denying accusations of hoax on MSM. He said, "...there's no way I could ever do that to my friends and family, my brothers and sisters, there's no way I'd hurt "The Project" like that..."
What Project was he talking about?
@@wirefortyseven8707 the cultural Marxist project
The assertion that "progress happens" is conclusionary - we'll see, it doesn't always happen, and it happens less to people who take it for granted.
Debaters who steel-man should be knighted on the spot. That was beautiful.
No one can "steel man" like Glen Loury.
There's an interesting form of evangelical preaching, used by people like Ray Comfort, that goes something like, "Have you ever told a lie? Then you're a liar. Have you ever taken something not yours? Then you're a thief. So, you're a bad person, now let me sell you the cure for your abject wickedness..."
This reminds me very much of that style of evangelizing, and evangelizing it most certainly is.
I have listened to these gentlemen for sometime. I would like to see a debate between them and the members of the 1619 Project and the like. It is all well and good to put out this valuable information, however to truly demonstrate the lapse in woke thinking I think a good Intelligence Squared style debate is necessary.
Orion Holder I am against debates, but I'd certainly like to see a panel discussion with them. But Progressives tend to favor echo chambers, so I dont think thats going to happen.
Same!!
The 1619 authors would be torn limb from limb! I really think the 1619 project's goal is to cause turmoil and help the Marxist destroy America.
Apologies if I'm preaching to the choir here:
If the intellectual underpinnings of the 1619 project are governed by critical race theory - which it appears at a glance that it most certainly is - then debate is forbidden. It would suggest "epistemic exploitation," the notion that engaging with opposing viewpoints only serves to sustain oppressive discourses that keep whiteness in power. It's another form of exploiting people of color, this time in the realm of discourses. Asking them for "epistemic adequacy," or to require them to know and demonstrate what they're talking about, is another form of oppression.
CRT is unapologetically anti-liberalist in this regard. It finds the free exchange of ideas to be inherently flawed, unsuccessful, and "the tools of the master."
That's why so many people, when attempting a legitimate critique or disagreement with CRT, are automatically labeled as racist. Do not pass GO. Do not collect $200. No other way at looking at any social interactions than through the lens of power as rooted in the historical master/slave, white/black, opressor/oppressed binaries.
@@tharkun21280 which is why they will lose. If you cannot defend your proposition the people will see that and turn from you.
I appreciate you guys so much. 🤜
Such conversations used to take place on TV in the US. GREAT TO FIND IT HERE.
Discovered you, today! What a welcomed infusion of light into this dark world that veils truth beneath ceaseless narratives of lies. Knowing you exist makes breathing less laborious. Thank God for you!
Great American thinkers in action. Thank God these discussions are left to posterity.
Glenn always seems so much happier to see John than John seems happy to see Glenn. 🤓
With Kobe Bryant, I read a lot of the articles about the accusations against him, and I find them credible. The fact that no one can meaningfully discuss his death without bringing up that he was a sexual predator is a good thing because it communicates to other athletes that 'no matter what you do in your sport, if you are a monster who abuses their power/fame, you will never escape from the stigma." (unless of course they make a very good apology and work to repair the damage they caused.)
What's credible about it?
I think one can and will always bring up such an episode, but in an obituary is low bar ..
You both are so right at 20 minutes in you say it all especially brilliantly .
Brilliant, your on the side of facts not idealogy.
Great conversation! Thank you guys for sharing. .
I feel Glen captures the nuance when he points out that the national narrative is not about truth, it is about texture and warmth. John's insistence on the 1619 project being imperfect in it's truth claims makes no attempt to hold the happy talk narrative to the same standard. If Slavery was an influence, and clearly it influenced everything, in the revolutionary war, this discussion needs to spend a decade or two on the table for discover and exploration, only then will we have even a chance to appreciate the truth claim.
Glen and John thank you for presenting the narrative of intelligence! I am a 72 yo "American" of Jewish heritage! Did not know that until 15 y ago. I grew up with watching my father serve his customers with respect and honor! Never in all those years did I see him treat anyone differently because of their color! I didn't have to be taught how to treat a member of the Human race, (the only race there is), as a member of the human race. I am proud to have heard your insightful thoughts of the Good and Evil condition that we are in. Since the Garden and the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" WE HAVE BEEN PLAGUED BY THE EVIL Knowledge infiltrating our lives. According to scripture there are 73 times +or- a few that say "keep my commandments". The two reasons where this: 1. So that the Creator knows we love Him, 2. So that we will have a good life with each other. How simple! We both decide not to break the last 6 commandments and we will have good lives one with another. May the Lord of Creation bless you both, keep you and protect you. May He look upon you both as a good father looks upon his children. and give you both His grace and Peace. (Shalom)
Thanks gentlemen.
Major kudos to Jon for the 1600 Pennsylvania avenue analogy. Pro opera singer here, and I remember singing "take care of this house" during my undergraduate studies. Love that you're a theatre lover.
At 31 minutes, the word is succor and it is pronounced like sucker (roughly). I don't know why but it practically sent a shiver down my spine hearing soo-kor.
Best show ever.
Everything you guys talk about is perfect subject matter for comedy and I love you for it
Can always trust Glenn to take John's (usually) more charitable - charity where it is often not deserved, mind you - and diplomatic statements and make them more biting. You can see the subtle look of mild disapproval that comes over Glenn's face when he thinks John is handling someone or some group with kid gloves.
"taking a meatcleaver to a tomato" ...love it. Thanks gents, balanced and well articulated as ever.
Fascinating discussion and commentary. Thank you for taking your time to share your thoughts with the rest us who may not have the depth of understanding, or the ability/inclination to acquire same, necessary to understand the complexities of these issues.
I love the musical instrument poster on the back wall.
And the scary thing about turn of the century "progressives" like Wilson is that they were also very supportive of the Eugenics movement.
also a big fan of the poster - I recall seeing it on some rehearsal hall wall back in the 60's. #yesimold
Wow. I did not expect Kobe Bryant to be brought into this as an example of how history is complex. Very good way to make the point.
Just found your series today; it is refreshing to hear your perspectives and I thank you for your time and hard work. I wonder what your thoughts are on this country being founded as a settler colonial state, as opposed to simply a state founded upon slavery, and the fact that slavery in this hemisphere as well as what became the United States began with the abduction and sale of Indigenous people, and continued far beyond the Emancipation Proclamation and into the 20th century. The 1619 Project obviously omits this in its attempt to situate 1619 as the foundational date of this country. If that were the case, what would that mean for Black complicity, as co-founders of this country, in the displacement, genocide, and theft of Indigenous bodies and land? Thanks again!
Regarding black homicide rates in the US, the most compelling hypothesis is that a subgroup of blacks still carry an honor code derived from Southern whites, who got the code from Scot-Irish immigrants from the borderland of Scotland and England. Think Hatfields and McCoys. I've had the opportunity to observe this in practice first in the 70s South, then recently at my mechanic's shop.
Personal agency has been replaced by selfishness and entilement. Life isnt perfect so who can i cast blame on. There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the complicated past but to simplify it to villains & victims removes us of the ability to become heroes.
Nikole Hannah Jones is a beautiful, brilliant Black woman who wrote a magnificent book.
There is no lie in her book. The southern colonies had different feelings about the Revolutionary War. They didn’t want to lose their slaves.
John is honest and good, kudos
Great thinkers
One of the saddest parts about this is that using the Project's narrative to exculpate present-day discrepancies means making a false dichotomy between just-world and conspiracist views, excluding the messy middle ground of complex confluences of historical processes disadvantaging certain groups by no one's conscious plan.
Please come to Princeton to give a lecture!
This is such a wonderful discussion, I just found some videos featuring Glenn Loury today and latter came to find these joint discussions between Glen and John. Thank you so much for doing this, this truly is some wonderful discussion. This is so helpful because at times I feel so alone, so disconnected from others for what I'm feeling about many of the current racial discussions. God Bless you both and please continue to do these shows. May you both stay safe and well during these pandemic times.
What is puzzling about the 1619 Project is why they chose that date. It is well known that the first landing of Spanish explorers in what became the continental U.S., occured on June 24, 1521, a few years later to also become the site of the first African slave REVOLT on these shores - almost a century BEFORE 1619. If the ostensible purpose of the project is, or was, to commemorate and promote interest inthe introduction of the first slaves here, why not chose the earlier date?
Or am I missing something?
Plus, it wasn't until later in the 17th century that slavery of Africans in the colonies became encoded into law. Between then and 1619, the status of Africans brought to the colonies was in a state of flux. Some were enslaved, while others were indentured servants who earned their freedom and went on to acquire property, with some having their own indentured servants.
“Exculpatory”-sums it up well.
At around 12:20 is a very important point, among many. It is time to abolish the electoral collage as it should have been when slavery was abolihed.
What is the economic productivity of prisoner labor?
On the subject of the incarceration being the new slavery wouldn’t the economic output of the prisoners have to be significant? Otherwise it’d just be incarceration. Slaves were not caged up and removed from society. They were in society and made to work.
You guys are so interesting
Glenn seems like one of the coolest people that ever lived
love you guys! keep it real
John McWhorter was a question/answer on Jeopardy! last night (or the night before). It appears he has made it!
Less than 8 minutes--during Loury's great intro framing-- and I have already been helped in how I'm thinking about something. Cheers!
First I must say I have much respect and adulation for the both of you. Further I am very jealous of your relationship with each other.
What I have gained from watching the two of you , who are clearly intellectual elite, is a better grasp of what that can truly mean. Both of you do a good service to us by raising the concept of intellectual elite in your discussions. While actually describing how one becomes so. In my industry and profession I am an intellectual elite, in the sense my life experience and continued growth in my knowledge base of the industry I am considered a leader and innovator in the field, but that comes with 28 years of experience. Further over the years I have taken it upon myself to become more learned in history, science and politics. In doing so my knowledge base has grown experientially. I am in no way as articulate as the two of you are, nor able to bring as much additional information both pro & con.
As I have become older and as my base of knowledge has grown increasingly so has my understanding. In my later years finding it difficult in having conversations with life long friends. Not because we don't agree or argue in fact we don't, it's that I am unable to have the types of conversations you two do so well they tend to not want to have deep conversations . I get the sense is because they understand little or are unable to articulate a point of view/ Because of this I find myself isolated for deep conversations that I desire.
Lastly allow me to say listening to the two of you over the last 2 years has changed my view on the concept of intellectual elites. Because I have kept myself in a continuing education life style and occasionally come in contact with many who think themselves intellectually elite only to discover many seem to think because they are well read that makes them elite because they can not articulate their concepts nor reason with counter information. This is definitely something both of you posse in a way I can only be envious of. Your knowledge base is large but more impressive is your reasoning and logic skills. Which I have come to understand can only be achieved through reading and trying to understand differing points of view.
I applaud you both for the great service you do by publicly having your conversations. You set a high bar and while we don't agree on everything we agree on most or should I say I come to agreeing with you more and more as I continue to listen in. Thank you!
What sane person promotes the idea that they are evil? What sane national culture flagellates itself incessantly and teaches its children to do the same?
Corey Ander The thing is, not only are we asked to say we’re evil, we can’t then criticize the evilness in others without being called bigots. I wouldn’t mind questioning if I’m evil if others didn’t, but they don’t. Only Western nations can be evil axiomatically.
@@coreyander286 I more than entertain that notion--it's between me and God. Likewise, I see both the spark of divinity and the mark of self-absorbed evil and deception in others. What is the point of all the public confession and boot licking? Absolution that will never be obtained that way.
...thanks again for further illuminating these issues -- intensely intelligent individuals brimming with courage. Too rare in this media thought-mandated time. Plus: McWhorter's Bugs Bunny mug grants him instant credibility, to little old me.
Raise up those voices.
Where open discussion prevails, truths arise.
Can someone please mention how perfectly groomed Glenn's goatee is?
U gay bro?
I think you just did
John's read in Reason was excellent. As usual, it was so intellectual it made my head hurt, but I always walk away from one of John's pieces being moved by the analysis. I'm glad to see Glenn and John debunk this crap since if I did it, I'd be deemed racist for exhibiting #WrongThink.
You two are the best. Your respective students should be crawling across campus on their knees to enroll in your classes - I know I would.
What was debunked?
Thank God for Abraham Lincoln and the Emancipation Proclamation.
Historically slavery was a globally accepted practice by other countries with many races and nationalities involved long before the US was even established. As a developing nation President Lincoln (formerly of the Whig party became a Republican) was against slavery. Slavery was popular primarily in the southern Democratic states. The refusal of the southern states to accept the new mandate led to the deadliest war in America’s history. More men died in the civil war than any other war in US history. Teach your children well.
Revisiting this conversation. Today in 2022 we now apparently have “black” washing of history. Will we ever acknowledge the gains that have been accomplished and established in current law? Or is that detrimental to the movement for reprerations?
And are reparations the sole and ultimate goal?
You can talk about it honestly; if you're going to mention that he's an icon and a hero you should also mention his failings and trespasses.
Love the podcast but your words on the Kobe case are not factual.
The 1619 Project was a mish mash. Some of the essays had bizarre assumptions. However she at least mentioned convicts and children without being dismissive of their suffering.
John, you mention Tim Wise in the video. I once tried to find a video of him debating with someone conservative of stature. Do you know of any that you could recommend?
From 1619 to 1776 all slaves in the colonies were British and slavery was British policy and law.
I'm am so ignorant and very ashamed that I haven't sought-after the opportunity to hear these gentlemen speak before or even give ppl with different opinions and ideas that might not be " mainstream " or popular a thought. My mind has come alive listening go these intellectual giants. You have gotten me addicted to thinking about race , class and just how much time we spend reheating the same soup to no serviceable point . How does that stop i wonder.
To the left, someone even being accused of sexual assault, is more important, then that person horrifically dying in a helicopter crash with their daughter. The horrific shortening of their life is not enough.
These people who wrote this 1619 project should have read The Federalist Papers, and also check some of Fredrick Douglas papers
Nicole Hannah-Jones is the Mildred Rutherford of the twenty first century.
The Selma movie didn't need Lyndon Johnson for a boogie man; it already had George Wallace.
Plus the guy from Office Space who had his stapler taken from him!
you should do this more often. surely, there are enough topics to go around
Gee, they sound like I do when I point out the Civil War was fought to end slavery, but some of my students say no, "it was for states rights." The 1619 Project is saying our Revolution is just saying our Revolution is for America's "states rights" to keep slavery, not for Americans fight to regain their national born rights as Englishmen.
Some Americans. For Virginia slavery was at that time a burden. For South Carolina and Georgia, more so. What is more general was the American settlers desire to control the vast resources of North America.
It's unfortunate that there are two beautiful stories which are seldom recounted in America today. The white soldiers of the Civil War who fought to "make men free", and that of the black soldiers who have fought for this country despite facing discrimination in certain corners of this nation. We have a history of people fighting and dying for each other and for this country, in truly selfless ways, but we seldom refer to it today.
The Revolutionary War was about slavery; slavery of white settlers to King and Court. No irony there...
I would love to hear you guys leave a reference to Jason Blair into this conversation... also I am not an historian either, and I will go googling after I post this but am I not to believe the story that Jefferson and Sally Hemmings were in love? Is it possible that he would have granted anyone freedom who wanted it and yet where else might they rather be then with the fucking president of a country in paradise? Who’s to say there isn’t a story about a Jefferson slave, Who approached him with a desire to go look for his family somewhere else and wanted to be free? Is it really hard to believe that an occurrence like that may have happened after Jefferson said something like “are you sure about this? It’s dangerous out there? Maybe I could write a few letters and find out....” Conversations like this would’ve been kept discreetly hidden from any public writings or even kept letters I could see communication like that may be being really frightening and dangerous... I mean who’s to say people weren’t even more unreasonable than they are today with each other, only of course in completely different ways. While on the subject… where would someone look for stories about slaves who killed their owners? Surely there must be one story like that? Doesn’t it seem strange that’s an hour of googling brings up nothing well one of thing but it was very hard to read… hard to follow.... OK I just had a flashback. Circa 1989, in Charlottesville I stayed for a short time on an estate that was designed/built by Jefferson. Wo. Something just stopped me from sharing this because it occurred to me it would be taken out of context and held against him. Damn. That’s the second time today something made me clam up, I don’t like that feeling at all. Like it’s a feeling of danger it makes me feel like I wouldn’t mind seeing the New York Times go out of business... and I don’t say that just because of the 1619 project although it’s a good reason... I say that because I called an old high school friend who is a journalist there for help, about five years ago... well I had this for lack of better word cartel style conspiracy have an entire community working to take my home out from under me because I had been videotaping heroin dealers and such, not because they care to stick my nose in anyone’s business normally, but they started threatening me, and then they started entertaining themselves with threatening me.... The condo board who rented to the drug dealers or maintained the gun dealers apartment who hadn’t even paid common charges for 10 years blah blah blah... they created a $26,000 fine, Alene, the deal was made with the owner that they would remove it if they kicked me out… That had been my home for 16 years and I was terrorized by people who weren’t even paying and I know this because the bank started coming after them anyway the point is I didn’t know where to turn I was the police and the mayor we’re all of the same high school alumni mentality.... I mean this is a place where a black felon who is charged with murdering her own three-year-old, although the boyfriend took the brunt of the punishment, the person like that will have no problem finding themselves employed by one of the local elementary schools.... and that same person will threaten to beat me up for asking her why I had overheard her saying she wanted to punch me down the stairs.... as if it’s so crazy of me to want to attempt some version of peace of mind in the apartment building I have to walk in and out of every day.... but I digress… I couldn’t believe there is nothing I can do and so I reached out to the New York Times at first I tried to call a few anonymous people to say “I have evidence concrete evidence of this illegal activity going on in the form of photographs, even emails to the police, license plate numbers and recorded conversations of buying and selling at the door quote50? Oh man you said it was 15!” Maybe it sounds awful that I was recording all of this but I just couldn’t understand why no one would help me, I assume they thought I was making it up… I even recorded a prostitute telling either boyfriend or a pimp that she had a plan to get them some money where she was going to take another prostitutes “Coke money“ and that prostitute left in an ambulance a couple hours later… I called the police that night I recorded the entire event from the pimp who live next-door to me sweetly saying “thank you Officer what hospital is she going to”this is the same guy you were here talking about “beating bitches“.... anyway if this sounds weird? What can I say? I’m a crazy person for trying to use whatever tools available like an SOS thinking somebody’s gonna come to my rescue because everybody else is crying about their children overdosing on heroin and here’s a bunch of people who not only sell meth and crack and heroin but Rob delis... my head starts swimming when I think about all of the things that I heard in the ridiculous have it I fell into of leaving my damn phone recording everything all the time.... anyway my phone call to my friend whose name I’m not gonna mention obviously was brief, I think she called me back but barely and just said she couldn’t help me to be fair she was a financial writer but still this is someone I grew up with in a small town and you would think people would care about each other but she was more afraid to even associate, at least that’s how it felt. Then of course the other writers never even called me back totally ignored me I still have the phone numbers in my phone I Cats just because I’m a pack rat.... no one is interested? No one is interested and asking a police department why they even have the information given to them on record, describing my information as if it was imaginary and then about three years later it was all over LoHud, they even had pictures of the same guys I had pictures of, the same car, the same license plate the same chief of police quoted as saying “this crew was responsible for a lot of overdose deaths”... can you imagine? Not only was everybody OK with those overdose deaths but they were just is OK with watching someone unfairly having their home ripped out from under them.... because they were busy writing about what? What was going on 2015? Compared to today little to nothing? Yeah so that hypocrisy… I’m gonna go refresh my memory of the Jason Blair saga
It should be no surprise that the 1619 Project was written by journalists and poets, not historians and academics.
Prof. Please invite Steven Pinker!!
Between 24.00 and around 25.00...John is "fucking" brilliant. He is the non-racist. He will not accept special treatment for black intellectualism. Great!
Does Glen mean "warp and weft"? (carpet metaphor?)
warp and woof, same thing
John was right the first time: succor (ˈsə-kər) sounds like "sucker"
The Irish were drawn as hooligans and heathens.
Welcome Boys!
You make my day.
"Welcome Boys! You make my day."
....
Boys? Oh-kay.
As usual, that was some good stuff.
(Glenn, please don't do another show like the one right before this one. We can find 50000 flavors of that on Twitter every day.)
The new england states where the states who where the biggest supporters. Of the revolution. and where among the first states to abolish slavery both sides of the revolution supported slavery and relied on black troops to one degree or another.
The French at that time were about Slavery were they not? Did they not fund the Continental army? Wasn't George Washington a slave owner? Didn't the British take over French colonies that had Slavery in America? There was a TREATY after the ARW. Notice that after the ARW, slavery slowly started to deteriorate from the North. Notice that there was somewhat a French society in the South which had Slavery.
The British and the people that eventually stayed here wanted to impose their way of life on the people that were already in America and that was to get rid of slavery.
The sad part is the fourth of july speech Douglass gave. And how Howard zinn cuts out every thing fredrick said about how 4th was great day for all of us. But you guys need to understand you are free not everyone. And fredrick believed our system to be pure. Bu zinn tells none o this in his speech he gives every 4th with celebs.
Anyone who thinks race no longer matters in America should note the vast difference in views between Glenn's McWhorter shows, and literally everything else on Bloggingheads. It's like a 6 to 1 or more ratio.
There will always be people like these guys that will do what they can to tarnish positive efforts by others.
The whole premise that the Revolution was about preserving slavery is false on its face. By 1800 the only northern state that hadn't abolished slavery was NJ - which followed 4 years later.
(Never heard of nor saw that Gasoline Alley comic before John said, "look it up." It's ghastly.)
@6:43...America was not conceived of as a "nation-state" in 1776
Right. An alliance.
Let's be fair and honest. The American Revolution wasn't about any one thing. For many, it wasn't about slavery. But for some, it was about slavery, at least partly or else inseparably from other issues. It's similar to other issues claimed as explaining the American Revolution.
One working class revolutionary veteran, when asked in older age, stated most of those who fought didn't give a flying fuck about tea and taxes. They risked their lives for democratic freedom and self-governance. They had always governed themselves and they planned on continuing to do so, no matter what anyone else thought.
Still, whether about taxes or freedom or slavery, the entire colonial system of all the empires were enmeshed and dependent on the slave trade. That was particularly true in the American colonies with slave plantations, slave markets, and docks for the slave trade.
All of that was very much about the conflicts in the colonies, if also involving other factors. It would be naive to dismiss the key and central importance of slavery to nearly everything in the colonies. And indeed it did come as a major factor in the Revolutionary War with the British government offering freedom to American slaves, the greatest of threats to the slave order.
Still, that isn't to dismiss some revolutionaries opposed slavery and specifically sought it's abolition. Thomas Paine was a famous example and no one could deny his having been morally principled, even to the point of being willing to die fighting for the rights and freedom of strangers and foreigners. And Benjamin Franklin eventually came around to the abolitionist position. There were even a few slaveholders who freed their slaves prior or during the Revolution, such as the Quaker John Dickinson.
But let's be realistic. Very few colonists at the time were directly, openly, and strongly opposed to slavery. Most were probably fine with slavery, as a default position of social norms and the social order. Part of the reason many American colonists fought were for other equally horrendous reasons. Unsurprisingly, few humans then or now were willing to sacrifice self-interest and privilege on behalf of those perceived as different from them.
Consider the land issue. The British Empire had official treaties with numerous native nations. The government, in honoring those agreements, tried to keep colonists off of native lands. But many colonists were outraged that they were not allowed to invade native territory, steal native natural resources, and claim ownership of native lands. That was undeniably a major contributing factor to getting so many colonists in support of revolt.
For this reason, many Native American tribes joined the British against the colonists. As with the slaves, the American Revolution was not for indigenous freedom ---- quit the opposite, in fact. Even most of the working class revolution had no intentions to offer freedom to non-Europeans. And so, stated or unstated, most of them essentially were fighting for slavery and genocide.
I have a right to speak on such matters. Multiple lines of my ancestry go back to the American colonies and American Revolution, not to mention both sides of the American Civil War. Also, I have ancestors who were slaveholders (before and after the American Revolution) and Indian fighters. I even have an ancestor who was born in native territory before the Revolution, which made her one of the first anchor babies.
Khalil G Muhammad is Elijah Muhammand great grandson
Its always about the money John. Black people were the money. I like the way Glenn roasts John with his imaginary devils advocate friends. Its not me who thinks you are being insane John, its them.
26:00 it seems Gleen has ignored MLK burning house speech .
Its incredible that slavery is only considered the greatest sin in America. Although slavery was acceptable around every part of the world. Islamic world, Europe, Asian world...
And the other thing, anti-abolition movement was the strongest in America.
Nobody over here said anything close to anti-abolition.
Kobe still assume a man who changed his star
Wow, I thought Kobe was exonerated.
Ms. Jones doesn't seem to take feedback well. I see the 1619 Project, as an icebreaker. Nicole Hannah Jones might have accepted historical perspectives from historians. She took a back seat in the debate on CRT, breaking down how it is not designed to assign guilt. She did not.
Finally to cape for Liz Cheney who voted with Trump 95% of the time., I called her on it and she blocked me.
Learn from te past, just don't LIVE there