5.04 Leaf Springs & Shackles GURU Level Tech!
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- I learned so much from making this episode. I go DEEP into the tech behind leaf springs, shackle lengths and shackle angles using my homemade Bored o' Leafs. I hope you get something out of it!
Here is the formula I used
H = Sin(A) * L
Or, where SpL = spring length (dead flat), and MH = the distance between spring mount and shackle hanger:
MH = SpL - Sin(A) * ShL
I watched any video on youtube and couldn’t find a more elucidative one.
But I have a question in my mind🤔 ıf we replace the leaf springs to a closer point towards to fixed point ,Will it raise the cars rear because of curve on the leafs. I don’t wanna raise the rear of my car I just want more flexible rear leaf springs.
Don't apologize for the color! That pale yellow is rad!
Informative.
Please tell me you spell “board”incorrectly on purpose though 😬
Appreciated! Only improvement (suggestion) would be to have used a scale to measure the change in resistance (spring rate) between each of the mounting locations. Expressed as a percentage (rather than in pounds for the sake of the model). Great demonstration and the bloopers were cool too!
No one could explain my question but you did .
Thanks for that paractical example. With out it i couldn't decide what to do.
Matt...one of the best videos ever put out on suspension. It's been such a mind boggle to understand this. This makes it totally comprehensible. thank you.
Matthew Mugar wow what a compliment! Thanks Matthew!
Good presentation ...Matt
I have query about shackle length design.
Spring span length 480 and spring height 145 mm,no of leaves 6
May I know what length required for shackle and installed angle minimum.
Outstanding video Matt! I have been building leaf spring Jeeps for years and only 'educatedly guess'ed' the shackle length and location. But now I have some good reliable math to use to take out the guesswork! (Yes, I can do math!) Loved the part "but wait!" I have watched this video about 5 times to make sure I understood and laughed every time!!
Kevin DeGroff thanks Kevin. You forced me to rewatch because I forgot about that part. I appreciate the compliment!
I feel like I'm back in a high school class trying
to keep my eyes open and occasionally nodding if looked at .. then I FAIL the final exam
Thank you. you really illustrated how the leafs and shackles interact on a leaf suspension. learned a lot
Finally getting around to trying to order new leafs. One thing I'm finding frustrating is that few mfg's list the same specs. For example Doorman tells you : pack thickness, capacity, and arch height. (example: 4 leafs, 1 overload, 1.75" thick, 1150lbs cap.) while many other aftermarket mfg's only say "3-4in lift springs" and don't have any arch thickness or capacity rating... It's hard to compare springs from Rough Country, BJ's offroad, Skyjacker or BDS without any actual specifications.
Great video bud. i have always eye balled the shackle angle and run flatter springs. Usually works really well.
This is the best video on RUclips
Matt, what’s your leaf lift and shackle angle on your Scout ii? Great video!
Thanks, I think I ended up at 75 or 80 degrees.
do you know about cars with front leaf suspension? by year 70 we did it on a 57 chev, but no body belived me
I know gassers use front leafs like Finnegan's Blasphemi.
I’m not a leaf spring guy at all, but now I feel prepared to become one of the day comes! Thanks professor.
With the top spring I have a flat spring on my hot rod I has about a 4” shackle on it if I put a six “ shackle will it raise the car as well
It will raise the car by half of the difference between the old chackle and the new. So in your case it will raise it 1".
And never underrate right lenght bump stops and never drive with open leave clamps .
Excellent presentation and superb demonstration Señor! Thank you for taking out your frustration on camera and sharing your learning journey with us 💪
Since you gotta a IH, I subscribed.
Fantastic video! A suggestion for a really cool addition to this video, if you took a scale (perhaps a fish scale) and showed the actual force required for say 1" of deflection, with different shackle lengths and angles. That would really demonstrate how the shackle can change the effective rate of a leaf spring.
What did you use for the springs, out of curiosity?
Hi Jeff, great suggestion. I should've done that. The springs are just simpson strong tie lumber straps of various lengths. I know it's not spring steel but I figured if I made them both exactly the same it wouldn't matter for comparison purposes. I would love to see a real spring shop do this with actual leaf springs and measure the rate!
@@MattsGarage I've also seen that done with a jack and a scale. 4 wheel drive magazine built a Contraption to mount a leaf spring in with a shackle on one end to allow the spring to move
Great video!
Please post the formula under the video title.
Done, but here it is. Sorry I'm late responding. It's been a crazy couple of months.
H = Sin(A) * L
Or, where SpL = spring length (dead flat), and MH = the distance between spring mount and shackle hanger:
MH = SpL - Sin(A) * ShL
You cracked the real puzzle of leaf spring stiffness relationship wrt shackle angle.
Great video. You are 💯% correct.... There are not many/any videos on this subject. What parts are supposed be able to move? Besides the leafs themselves, is the shackle supposed to swing? Is the bolt supposed to spin in the bushing? To they get tightened down? My through bolts are rusted in place. I've replaced springs, but I tightened the new ones down and nothing swings/swivels... only my spring leafs move-flex.
What else should move? That's my basic question
Hi Ed. The springs flex and the shackle moves. The bolts should tighen the inner bushing sleeve to the shackle such that nothing spins on the bolt. Only the bushing material (rubber or poly) should move. If you have rubber, it will not spin on the bushing sleeve. Poly will. Are you sure your shackles aren't moving at all? That would be bad. The shackles need to move otherwise your springs are binding or they are way too stiff. Make sure you don't have a driveshaft or shock limiting the travel also. Theoretically if your springs are super flat, the shackle wouldn't move that much but it should still move.
@@MattsGarage I've got to take them apart, clean and grease them then. Shackles definitely not moving. Thanks Matt. I'd call but don't know if you take calls or have a shop etc... I work sewer and water and live in Wisconsin. We're laid off during winter and I've been wanting to address the issue with the springs... Just started looking for info and it's slim pickings
Thanks for the leaf spring demonstration, I just checked the 55 truck rear leaf spring shackle I put on 10 years ago, it's straight up & down, there's another hole on the bracket that will change the angle to more movement. Now I know why I hit my head on the ceiling when I drive over a dip too fast. Thanks
When you order Dever lift springs for a stock vehicle do they automatically make the leaves longer to compensate for shackle angle?
Excellent demonstration on how leaf springs and shackles work!
Thanks for helping me understand effective spring rate as it relates to leaf type suspension. Subbed.
love how you give shit to ford and chevy owners lol
ha! It's all in good fun. I own a ford and a chavy too. I've always found the brand rivalry kinda silly. It should be 'merica vs the world!
Great video on all fronts! This is what RUclips was made for if you ask me ... edutainment.
Thank you for taking the time to do this. I stopped in the middle of the video tho make sure I wouldn't forget to trip that "wonderful"(agk I just threw up in my mouth a little) algorithm for ya, but I might have some questions at the end ...
Good Video! Go in on the effects on castor angle and steering (old jeeps etc) in the next one!
Iv'e found out that if that schackle is straight up and down....on full truck weight......(YOU ARE OK)....(trust me)....
Im just wondering... wouldn't the less movement on the shackle be more ideal? With the shackle moving less, the axle would have less forward and backward movement... no? Just a thought I had here. Great video though!
Something has to move though. Without shackle movement there is no spring flex. It would make for too stiff a ride. But you are right, the downside is fore and aft axle movement. That’s why coil and link suspensions are superior, especially in the front. The back doesn’t matter as much since it’s trailing.
@@MattsGarage the spring still compresses the way it's supposed to though doesn't it? It is a bit hard to tell without lines drawn or something I guess haha
@@dirka_dirka_mohammedalijihad no. As the spring, compresses it has to get longer. Bend a piece of metal and measure it from end to end, then flatten it. It will be longer flat. The shackle takes up that difference.
Totally well explained, my shackle angle will be fixed now thx...
Andrew James thanks Andrew. Good luck! I had a guy pull up in a lifted Scout yesterday to bus some parts I was selling. As soon as he got out I’m like “does that thing ride really rough?” And he’s like “yes, how’d you know?” :-)
@@MattsGarage yep cheers I already have it on CAD and worked out, after your lecture ready to make it... Thx again
I just did this with a 12 inch lift leafs on my square body suburban up front moved my shackle eye hanger forward up on frame and longer shackles definitely true in facts .and the 12 inch leaf springs actually work by doing that . instead of just bolting them to the factory location.i got video up on here under my name
Wow!!! Why didn't I find this video before!!! This is gold to me!!! My old F350 rides like an old wild west chuck wagon. Thanks so much for this video!!! 👍👍👍
Happy to help.
Very, very helpful video Matt. Very easy to follow and you did a great jog. I am one of your slow learners, and I would appreciate it if you could list the steps for calculating shackle mount location.
Very helpful! My truck has a front axle swap. And the ride is awful, while the spring may just be too big. The shackle is 90° at ride height. Time to go make some new mounts and shackles!
There's another variable - the more leafs you have, the more friction between each leaf in the pack creating resistance on compression to make a smoother ride.
Jay R yes but it’s pretty negligible. most of those leaf springs have plastic pads between them
“Wait wait, you can do this” xD legend thank you for the informational and emotional support
Thank you! I learned so much about my favorite kind of spring. Gives me a good idea on what to look for when working on my 73' C10
Dillon Opossozoku happy to help!
Thanks so much!!! I'm doing a solid axle swap and it was very nice to see the angles.
Very complicated subject
Very cool. Thank you very much.
WTH? Sorry for the color?? What an odd thing to say.
He means that there's not enough contrasting colors to see the demonstration properly.
@@Vickyvee97 No, I'm pretty sure he was apologizing for the Scout being yellow, which I guess to some people might not be a "cool" color. That's purely subjective. IMO, any of those older (non-metallic) colors from the '70s look great, so long as the paint's in decent condition.
That's the ideal color for a urine sample. Good job staying hydrated!
Very good clear explanation. Thank you so much
Thanks Caesar!
If ride quality & performance of your vehicle is important to you, then you should NEVER have to deal with Removing a Leaf from your Leaf Pack to Decrease your spring rate for a softer ride. That's the Beauty of buying Custom Leaf Springs from DEAVER SPRING INC. They make sure that the springs they make are absolutly perfect for each vehicle before they leave the front door. Obviously they are not perfect and stuff happens from time to time, but everyone I have spoken too about Deaver says that their Customer Service is next level... ( like your at Grandma's house waiting for the 2nd batch of cookies in the oven because the 1st batch was cold. ) And the awesome part is that Deaver Springs are 100% USA Made, so they will rework and remove a leaf from the leaf pack themselves all Free of Charge if you weren't happier than a kid with fresh baked cookies from Grandma's house. The things I have heard about Deaver and what they do to help a customer are things you don't her about companies doing anymore. Good Values I guess. I just know that the guys at Deaver Spring would have plenty of better ideas than simply removing a leaf & done..... that was my point. I Definitely enjoyed the Video Matt & I love the Bronco! Thank you!
You did so amazing on this video. I Will save this video to watch multiple times. Lot of work went into this and I appreciate it so much
Parker Wilstead thanks Parker! Sorry it took so long for my reply. Been swamped lately.
Matt's Garage no worries, keep up the good work!
Hi Matt,
Enjoyed the info, one thing to help test spring compression and angles
Is to disassemble the both spring packs, using only the main spring and make a small block to replace all the other springs that have been removed, so if it 3 inches of spring that have been remove add in a 3 inch block put your bolt back though the block and main spring mock both springs on the vehicle than with a jack you can compress and release and let hang and get your angles of the shakles and find your bottoming points with your tires on and off as well and side to side relaesd and compressed with out the resistance of all the srings as well as measurements for shocks and brakes line mods, drive line lengths and so on
Thanks for the video!
Perfect video. Im new to leaf springs. And this was very helpful. Got a thumbs up from me
Thank you for to the point and no off topic ramblings! Logic was telling me that diagram was wrong.
Thank you for this excellent video :)
Thank you for making this video. Very informative and helpful!
I watched this working on a truck. Came back to it while contemplating lifting a firebird for slicks. Im seeing a longer shackle will change my angle
Consider getting rid of the shackles altogether and replacing them with leaf spring sliders.
This is very interesting. I am in the process of doing a 63" spring swap on my Tacoma so this information is very useful. Thank You!
mike diltz cool, let me know how it turns out. Good luck!
How did it go? I am in the process of doing that on my 1st gen 4runner. What angle did you end up going with? And how do you like them so far?
@@jesusakadice sorry but I never ended up doing it. I sold the truck when I saw how bad the frame was rotted.
But wait! How do I figure out if I have to use a 4" or a 6" shackle? Or how to measure it
AWSOME VIDEO! Thanks so much for making this. I love seeing stuff like this. I’m currently planning out a front a rear axle swap on my Jeep. I’m also putting in a new sua rubicon express lift. This information was hugely useful and encouraging for me. I can give myself an improved shackle angle and stretch my wheel base a little at the same time! Thanks again!
William Burch happy to help. Just keep it at 90 or a little sharper and you’ll be good. Once you get over 90 the ride quality starts nosediving.
Thank you, very informative 👏👏👏
Great explanation, thank you!
Love the info. Just subscribed. OUTTAKES!
Amazing demo , I concept of shackles is a lot clearer now👍👍
Great video, I am mounting leave springs from scratch and this video gives me a lot to think about! Also I love the practical use of trigonometry!
Recommend reading Trophy trucks and chassis design.
Phenomenal explanation! Thank you. 👏
Very informative. Great video. Great explanation.
The video I was looking for. Thanks 👍.
Offroad springs are much stiffer
Great info I've been looking for an explanation before lifting my rig. I really want to get it right the first time.
This was awesome man thanks for the video. I just added some length to my shackles on my Toyota pickup with 35’s that I made from Home Depot. My ride angle is at 18degree now. Springs are pretty flat. I made a video on my channel of my quick cheap shackle setup I made by hand. I’m curious what you or any viewers of this video would think about it? Opinions or tips would be awesome guys!
👍👍👍
Solid prep on this bad boy, love it
Very interesting, I didn't fully understand this!
Great subject and good job on the tec talk!
@ 2:20 ... the oven (the final step) determines spring rate.
Great video, thanks . 👍🏿👍🏿
I'd say call the manufacturer
Awsome job, you can almost feel the spring rates as you move the springs. Question everything! Just don't get paralysis from analysis - get out and wheel, when it brakes, fix it and get back out 😉
Isn't the leaf spring and shackle flipped upside down though? per what a double axle trailer would have set up. Do appreciate the points you made though.
Both exist. The kind you are talking about are tension shckles. Broncos have that style. The principles are the same but I'm not as experienced with tension shackles.
For the win!! A couple years of searching for how to figure shackle angle and I’ve found it!! I moved my springs inboard the frame on my Ranchero for more tire clearance. Doing so with a kit. A kit for a Falcon car not a Falcon Ranchero. The Ranchero wheel base is longer. Think station wagon with no rear top. Anyways had to fab my own mounts for shackles and they are wrong. To steep under the weight of the car. No hardly and action at all. Not good for hooking up on the track. I have traction bars still no action for a launch. Stiff as a board. I’m so glad I’ve found this. Now I can cut that old shit off and do it up right!
Aaron Gammel awesome! Happy to help!
I just changed my xj shackles angle from 90 digress to 20 degrees with stock shackles but i have longer shackles if i put on it i can adjusted to 40 to 45 degrees, what you recommend i do i have arch springs 4.5” lift springs. Which one is better for off-roading 20 degrees on stock shackles is 3” or 5” shackles on 40 degrees? Thank you , where useful video
Can you send me a pic of the setup? 45 seems a little too sharp. It should be in the 70-80 degree range at ride height. with 45 it's going to be very springy!
Matt's Garage where I send the pic ?
Life with Doberman mattsgarageshow@gmail.com
I just send the picture before flax and after flex with factory shackles. I looked the leaf spring when compressed all the way in it looks like little bit S you mentioned on your video
I watched this because I was looking for tech on leaf's. I'm getting ready to do a 52 front swap and a 63 rear on my square body. The 63s are out of a dodge 1 ton ( really stiff ) and removing a pack or 2 to ease the stiff ride, but if I can mitigate that through shackle placement, maybe it wont be such a disastrous task... either way I guess it's all just playing with numbers.
Ryan Rich sounds like a unique project. It’s tough to find that balance. Go too extreme with the shackle angle the other way and the suspension doesn’t “act right” at which point better to have a more conservative angle (slightly less than 90) and pull some leaves. Pulling leaves can either be simple or a real pain depending on the leaf straps and rivers. Plus you have to go to a spring shop for all new ubolts. I don’t torque the new ones all the way until I first drive the truck a little ways to make sure I don’t need to take out another or add one back. Good luck!
Awesome video !!! Very helpful
Tq very good learning session from you bro
This has been the most educational video I've ever seen about leaf spring tuning and shackle angles effecting the ride. Im running pro comp springs and there isn't enough desired flex i need. Might be i just need to adjust or buy shackles before changing out springs. Thanks again
ae86mia happy to help! I made this video because I couldn’t believe it hadn’t been made before. It’s now one of my most popular videos. Crazy.
All this is very interesting but I'm having a hard time applying it to what different angles cause what reaction as far as ride quality. Have A93YJ that rides like a covered wagon I'd like it to have a nice softer, smooth ride, so I don't know exactly how to do that. It doesn't have a lift. It's all stock except I have adjustable rancho 9000 shocks I tend to run them at the stiffest Setting, that's a pretty Punishing ride but. If I set It at the softer settings. I tend to get a lot of rattling in the Jeep. And a sloppy feeling ride. What would you think would help me out here? Maybe some boomerang, shackles, I'm not sure. How to proceed
Are used to have Rancho 9000s on that Scout, and they were so stiff. You might want to switch to a better brand. In terms of rattling when it’s softened, I don’t know what is causing that. sprung suspension on a light vehicle like a jeep should be very supple. It should go over bumps smoothly. I don’t think boomerang shackles are gonna make a difference. As I type this, I’m wondering what condition you’re bushings are in. Because if they are all rotted out, that would explain noisiness when the shocks are soft. Feel free to email me at mattsgarageshow@gmail.com if you wanna continue the conversation
In a 4x4 I like my springs almost flat. That way it rides best and your suspension can equally travel both directions. Big ark springs have no droop travel.
Flat at ride height?
This is a fantastic video! Thanks for taking the time to explain it. It answers the question, why my truck is so rough. When I bought it, it already had a 6 inch lift, but lately I found out the previous owner put the springs on backwards. So the short end of the springs is up front moving the axle 2 inches forward and the shackle is 90 degrees. It is a 79 f-350 one tone. So since the shackle is mounted 90 degrees from the factory, is it recommended for it to say right where it is?
Dennis Kwasnycia can you send me a photo at mattsgarageshow@gmail.com? Please include one directly from the side.
awesome video! thanks
I have all my parts together to do a leaf spring swap on my CJ and wanted info on shackle angle. Best I could find so far was avoid inverting. This helps a lot. Thanks.
Thanks. Good luck with the build.
Awesome video great demonstration and great to learn off of, I think when thinking about travel and "bounce" of a leaf what you said is dead accurate. My theory why the diagram is different is in a drag application the "s" in the spring is what drives the axle down to hook up, so shifting the shackle obtuse of 90 would cause the S bend sooner therefore driving the axle down harder causing a "stiffer" feel.
That is a solid tehory. It would have never occured to me since I know next to nothing about drag racing.
ok ,I'm curios how you get starting point for shackle mount ? to get 35deg ? sprin eye to spring eye length or what , I've done this on toyota, now changing superduty to get better flex , going to move shackle mount ,
You need to use the formula in the description. Sounds like a cool project.
How possible is it that different angles in your shackles would result in the position of the tire being forward or back of the other tire ? That is passenger side would not match drivers side. I have a 3/8" difference drivers to passenger side and my shackles are visibly out, any ideas guys? I'm new to leaf springs but after watching this video, it might be a correct assumption. Would like your input before I rip things apart too much...
I’m not sure. Is your body tub square to your frame?
Watching.... again. Great info. Thx!
funny just like me phones suck
Should’ve left the outtakes 🤣
I like your video. Lots of good stuff there. FYI. Thou shalt not take the name of the the lord in vain. Furthermore, He will not hold him guiltless who uses his name in vain.
Thanks Kirk. Why does God care what I say or do not say? There are children being abused right now all over the world as I type this. Are my words distracting God from saving them from their suffering? Why should they know that kind of pain while at the same time child predators thrive in their twisted existence and go to their graves without fear? I’d be happy to engage in a conversation about divinity and the concept of an eternal damnation but the RUclips comments section is probably not the place for it. Or maybe it is. Feel free to email me at mattsgarageshow@gmail.com if you want to continue this dialogue.
Well done, thanks!
Matt, great info.
???!! I have a trailer that I would like to put the axle underneath the springs is that wise to do and what do I need to know about when I do that?
Besides the height, will it make my trailer more bouncy?
It might make it a little more springy, but the shocks should keep it from being bouncy. You’d have to make sure it was engineered well. Trailers see a lot of load and you don’t want something coming apart!
Awesome explanation! Thank You!!!!
You are welcome!
Lol. My buddy had a Scout the same color. Excellent info.
Thanks! I should have kept it that color. I might change it back.
Great video. I bought my truck with a lift already on it. Monster lift kicks like a mule. No shackles. That math is going to be handy to solve my mystery.
Thanks Ken. When you say “no shackles” do you mean that both ends of the spring are literally bolted to a fixed mount!?! That would be lunacy.
@@MattsGarage yep. Rough ride.