Professional Race Car Drivers Frustrated with iRacing
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- Опубликовано: 21 авг 2024
- The "great pause" should have been a celebratory time for sim racing, as hundreds of professional race car drivers flocked to both participate in and promote "the most accurate and sophisticated racing simulation software ever created." It... didn't go so well. Their unfiltered feedback directly contradicted almost a decade's worth of carefully crafted marketing babble and forced everyday sim racers to completely re-think what they knew about the hobby - or just stick their fingers in their ears and actively try and argue why they know more about how an IndyCar drives than championship winning race car drivers like Scott Dixon and Josef Newgarden.
Nicki Thiim may be a professional racing driver, but he has the spirit of a Twitch streamer.
Thatrandomguyinthecorner he sayd he won’t touch iracing but 3 days ago, i was on the same split as he was
Josef on camera: provides a calm, easily digestible explanation to iRacing's problems
Nicki on camera: "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA"
Exactly the way it should be lol
I mean, he really knows how to make a critic without being a freaking banshee...
Too bad iRacing doesn't how to handle criticism so well. After all, they almost banned Scott Dixon for that.
The fact that Nicki's channel is full of iracing videos, make it even funnier
but bizarrely, both saying the same thing :D
YES THANK YOU
Hello Misha, Did not know you were into simracing as well ;)
@@nico2006t I am not, that's why I am thankful for this video
Misha Charoudin Former tires model was better to me as well. And they need to do something to fix the new one. But with good wheels and GOOD wheel setting it is enjoyable.
@@mgcharoudin Oh, you're a REAL racer huh?
@@alain46 how is this relevant?
Finally. iRacing needs more criticism like this.
Funny how people shit on PC2 or something but not iRACING
and it is fucking expensive
@@TheCameltotem most people dont piss on a game they paid 13 usd for a month and iracing can bans you for critiquing the game . but banning a pro 99% of the time would give the game a even worse look
@@playerror8321 iRacing is so WOKE...they cannot handle any customer complaints and view complainers as NON-CUSTOMERS. What business treats paying customer complaints as a negative thing...it just shows they do not want to get BETTER!
@@iRacerUSAF45Just another example of what happens when agenda’s trump customer satisfaction.
I have fun playing most of the major sim racing games, except iRacing anymore. I have a ball with most of them. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses.
IRacing, I cringe every time I get in a car stressing about what jank is about to unfold this time.
The fun factor isn’t there for me anymore. The iRacing tire model has regressed over the years IMO.
Glad to see some pro drivers debunking the myth that iRacing is a realistic racing handling simulator.
It’s an expensive game with a gigantic marketing department.
Unless they get back to their roots the woke virus will take them out.
You know something is wrong when Niels Heusinkveld makes a video titled "Don't give up simracing if you don't like iRacing!". Like literally the game is so unenjoyable because of the complete inability to slide the car, it is making enough people quit simracing to need a video like that. It's a shame people quit without trying other sims.
And I still see these comments "the devs know, they are fixing it, it's really hard" (ignoring the fact it's been like this for years). Also ignoring the fact other sims HAVE got it right. There's something about paying so much money that makes people desperate to defend the game.
Xei Yes I was just about to post a link to this video, great that people are speaking out. Link: ruclips.net/video/oPyMUU-ubN8/видео.html
Xei I saw this come up earlier but need to check it out still. Interestingly the Rallycross cars are great beyond the limit, so they can do it!
@@pillowhead4000 Yeah it's interesting. Makes me think it's a conscious design choice. There are a lot of people in the sim community that seem to think unforgiving and hard to drive = realistic.
@@xeigen2 from their replies on the forums, it seems to me they are applying physics based on nascar to roadcars expecting tht to be correct, when it is a completely different world of racing. I'm guessing they just don't have the knowledge. they did get real RX drivers involved when doing those, and that ended up good.
There are fanboys for free to play games, some people are just like that for some reason.
This pleases me greatly. Fanboys have attacked me for years because I said the grip levels were unrealistic.
I always got "how do you know how should handle", "your not a racing driver" type thing, as if you can't see unrealistic car behaviour compared to real life. Seeing the 'pros' rip it apart now is hilarious.
@@mcrecordings Those are the ones you know have never driven /any/ car to its limits. Physics don't change from car to car in real life.
Isn't it sad that you have been saying this for years and iRacing is more interested in making the crowd look 80% black or brown than fixing their flaws?
even driving a go kart will give you a better feeling of racing than these games. it's kinda false advertising to call them simulators.
So the tire model has the behavior to overslip? If so I'm dealing with that too on iRacing. I have been a member for 4 months and have noticed that myself.
I always thought Project Cars 2 Indy car model was pretty decent. At least you can slide around in that thing pretty easily.
Funny because many sim racers think a more difficult car to handle is automatically more realistic, meanwhile looking down on other less difficult sim racing games that may be just as realistic if not more.
bUt PrOjEcT cArS iS sImCaDe! Oh boy the sim fans weren't ready for this rude awakening haha.
@@NemisisDL Err the only sim racers who play it are the ones that paid for Ian Bell's Ferrari.
@@mcrecordings You're just another individual that's a part of the hatebreed "sim" community. At the end of the day...you, me and everyone else has payed towards other people's Ferrari's, not just Ian Bell's. Gotta laugh at that irony though! As they say my Friend, ignorance is bliss
@@NemisisDL Are you seriously trying to sound intelligent with platitudes? I know one of the Kunos founders has super cars, the difference is they didn't go to the sim-racing community cap in hand, then get investigated by the FCA, then deliver a crap buggy game.
The only sim racers who play it are the ones that invested time and money in the title and wasted both. I've gotta hand it to Bell though, he managed to pull off the same scam twice.
@@mcrecordings Yikes mate. So eager to convey what you deem "worthy" and fast to hate speak on anything that doesn't garner your interest. You're a sole example as to why I don't take the SIM racing community seriously and laugh at people like YOU. Why do you think this video exists, dumbass?
You're the expert! You're wise! You obviously know your shit too! Yet you're an ignorant, deluded, narrow-minded fool that is up his own ass to play anything else. *THEY ARE ALL FUCKING GAMES* at the end of the day. Don't get me wrong though. I love AC, so we should be on the same side anyway. Since you know it all anyway, you should know when to shut up too smfh
This is a good time for better cooperation with the real drivers to improve the sim.
It would still take at lest few years to fix it. They don’t want to break anything else in the process. Getting tire model right especially at and over the limit is the hardest part. I think no sim gets it always right, but the closest one is rF2 tire model.
The Vast majority of drivers are never going to touch iRacing again after they step back into a real car.
@@JanKowalski-kb1hd iRacing constantly fix and break stuff :D The problem I have with rF2 is people have been saying the tyre model is the best, most realistic etc. for years, before 397 took over and told everyone the TM was flawed and hadn't been updated since 2012 (this was late 2017). You even here the same thing said now about LFS even though the developer said in 2008 the tyre model wasn't realistic, essentially gave up and hasn't been able to fix it.
This confirmed exactly what I thought about Iracing it makes it harder so you think its real.
Exactly...why is it that the harder a sim is the more real they say it is? I dont nearly spin my road car every day on cold tires or lock up the brakes i mean some older games felt more real than these modern "sims" that seem to over simulate slides and lack of traction.
Haxor Computer Services yeah true but your road car isn’t on slicks which are pretty damn slippy when you first reach a corner. 2 or 3 corners later and they aren’t too bad. New slicks are even more slippy! Will never forget my first qualifying session on new rubber! Had a few sideways moments shall we say. The problem with iracing is that instead of gaining grip further into the slide it seems to drop off a cliff, FAR too soon, resulting in no grip at all and it’s impossible to save. Real life is way more intuitive. I can handle a car sideways and over the limit confidently in real life but on the sim I always drive under the limit to never go beyond.
@@pillowhead4000 when i raced superbikes i put slicks on my road bike...old worn past their prime slicks and used them in the wet on the road daily as it was better than proper wet road tires. We cut some groves but only in the center and that on the road in all conditions was excellent and that was on a 1000cc superbike. Iracing tyres or grip in general is just fake in my opinion from real world experience in cars and on bikes on track and on road in all conditions.
Real life is more fun...more control but also more scary as a mistake is more costly. Dont these devs ever drive real cars to feel?
David Kaemmer (CEO of iRacing), has ALWAYS had this mantra with all his sim/cades
"If my sim is the hardest to master, to play, then I must have the best and most accurate pc racing sim, and if only a handful of elite racing car drivers can come to grips with it, I have a winner!"
A little insight into my experience. I've been an iRacing member for almost 10 years now. When I first started, the cars felt like they were on ice with no grip and had TONS of rotation. In about 2012 or 2013, they introduced a brief tire model (referred to then as NTM - not sure if they call it that anymore) to the class B Impala at the time. It felt so grippy and what I perceived to be realistic compared to the car movements on TV. You had so much control. You could catch a slide pretty easily and hustle it like Newgarden is explaining. I remember entering a class B practice at Dover and was posting faster times in that session than Richard Towler (the iRacing NASCAR champ at the time). They pros and long time users HATED that tire model and they quickly did away with it. The tire model now pretty much feels like a mix of both feelings I've described here. Hopefully these past few months with real drivers giving iRacing some feedback will help take this sim to the next level of realism (where it should be in 2020).
This is what my IRL crew chief said as well. There were supposedly three weeks in the fall of 2011 where the game was absolutely perfect - the Nationwide car was at Dover, Texas, and I think New Hampshire? Little-known regional late model guys began absolutely DOMINATING the eSports crowd because it drove pretty much 1:1 with a real car. The teenagers caught up in the pursuit of eSports glory - some of which who had never driven a car before - complained that they couldn't win any more. Instead of iRacing putting their foot down and saying "we don't give a shit, this is a hardcore simulation", they embarked on a path of trying to appease random people in the forums who didn't actually know what they were talking about.
@@AustinOgonoski shit if that the case then I am done with iracing I am not going to pay all this money to iracing which is supposed to be a sim just to be for esport players who have never driven a race car in there lives
I remember that, iirc it was only on a few cars and the skip barber was one of them? At the time it was easily the best iRacing had felt. The fact it went back to being... well crap made me give up on iRacing (I was A Road B Oval License at that point). Having sporadically checked back in over the years it hasn't got any better.
Just found this: iracing.fandom.com/wiki/IRacing_Tire_Model_History
I know I'm late; "iRacing 2.0" with the NTM was so so good. And yes, a lot of the "fast" guys got mad and changes were made. It wasn't perfect, but it is still better than today.
@@f1v10thebest Like Max Verstappen and Lando Norris.
Guys iracing telemetry contains all the evidence you need. Before corner entry the surface temp is 40 deg, mid corner it goes up to 90. If you attack the corner wrong it goes up to 110 deg when it comes like driving on ice. Then no amount of straightening the wheel up or "hunting for grip" will enable you to rotate the car for the rest of the corner until you hit the straight where you can cool those suckers down again. Once the Tyre overheats you can forget about turning the machine for the rest of the corner. iracing tyre model is a joke. Always has been.
I just don't get how they could've had it so right with NR2003 for the time, then screwed this up so badly. I've been on iRacing since 2013 (my account had to be reactivated in 2015), and things have only gotten worse on the road side. Oval aide is better, but there is NO play in the car, no matter how you set it up. To be fast and not die, you have to be so inhumanely laser focused. It's super difficult. The price is the biggest gripe with all of this though. They claim to sell a premium product, but really they are just extorting people. If I can be precise with a gamepad enough to land the dcs hornet on a carrier, I should be precise enough on my wheel to die when entering the corner EXACTLY as I had been for 20 laps. They need to reduce costs or fix these issues.
Yep ive lost grip in a corner with the mx5, only to struggle to regain grip several corners later after already getting the car straightened back out. Not only do the tires lose grip too quickly but it takes ages to gain it back
I just started iRacing and I'm using Sim Dashboard. Once in a while I'd have a spin when really pushing the Mazda 11/10ths in practice and after I quit back to the pits I'd look down at the tire temps in the app and they'd be over 100C on the outside tires. I actually thought it was some kind of software glitch with the app!!
@@xX_Gravity_Xx You know iRacing is NR2003? Its based on its source code. I recall someone who got sued by iRacing said it was 97% or something (can't recall the exact figure) the same game, obviously they would have changed a lot since then but having played iRacing on and off since 2008 the characteristics people get annoyed with have been there from the start. The pricing model might have made sense years ago when they were the only ones laser-scanning tracks, but Assetto Corsa has LS tracks now (other sims have the odd one or two). Their cars have always been overpriced.
@@xX_Gravity_Xx Most likely it is the worst limitation, everything constructed around it. Even on 2001 Live for Speed was easily the best simulation, the problem came when it reached its limit. The developer was very honest and revealed that it tried to replicate real tyre/car behavior (vs scirocco would appear on LFS) and found math limitation in his physics approach. Even today it made improvements but couldnt find a suitable tyre model.
Drivers: FIX YOUR TYRES!
iRacing: New damage model? It's yours my friend!
I know I’m late to this party, but I have 30 years of experience road racing and autocrossing, in production cars, formula cars, even shifter karts. Iracing tire grip and falloff curves bear no relationship to reality. Fast guys learn to be fast in the game, there is no skill transfer except for race craft, and even that doesn’t count much because there’s so little penalty associated with screwing up. My experience is a detriment. I’m way better at ovals than road racing in game (yeah, I used that word twice on purpose) due to learning that skill set online.
Just raced a CRAPPY iRacing Bristol Dirt Track...125 lap race with 99 CAUTION LAPS...nobody was happy! Drivers were cussing and just disconnecting. What the hell is going on with the so-called software designers in Boston?
Nicki Thiim is the hero iRacing needs, but not the one it deserves right now... so they'll ban him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian, a watchful protector. A dark knight.
... silent? xD
A dark knight with a stupid hair
Nicki Thiim at it’s finest. Met him @Fuji. The guy’s a legend.
From the SuperV8 it’s clear that the tire model is not the only issue. Their aero tables are creating an unnecessary amount of lift with height ride. That “float” effect happens because they didn’t get the tables right at large heights.
is it just aero tables though. i mean you take a tram and run it around a corner fast enough, it's gonna tip over. shit doesn't just tip over w/o having the actual properties of the "box" being completely fucked.
I wonder if they build their hash tables based on cfd or wind tunnel data.
Fuck no. You think you can rent that license for 12 bucks if they did any sort of CFD on it? 🤣.
Put it this way. A very rough mesh of 40million cells stand alone for a single PC to do ONE ride height and wing angle run to get a convergence result is roughly 23-25 hours. That's not including the time it takes to refine the mesh.
You will not find a single entertainment grade "sim" with CFD based lookup tables, physically impossible.
Don't forget. The more they sell this technical bullshit, the more some ppl will dig into it.
wayne kerr Wow I knew CFD was computationally expensive but not to that degree. Even if they did a low poly mesh, getting all the data with the yaw pitch, roll, and velocity variable combinations needed sounds unfeasible. Not to mention dirty air off other cars. They probably have like a few points of reference and interpolate/extrapolate the rest of the lookup table.
@@waynekerr67 I'm certainly no expert, but MS's new Flight Sim is supposed to measure something like a thousand individual points, though it's far easier to do on an airplane.
But they keep playing it because... Well, because everyone else keeps playing it. As silly as it sounds.
They keep playing because there is nothing comparable in terms of multiplayer and matchmaking.
@@dom6029 I was talking about professional race drivers, not the normal random user :P
But even then, that was exactly my point. IRacings matchmaking system is so good because many people play it. And that's what make other people play it. It's not the quality of the simulation, but the sheer number of people who play it and keep playing it because... Because everyone plays it.
It's the definition of vicious circle.
@@dom6029 I moved after 8 years in iRacing - and a shitload of money - to ACC for multiplayer, and rfactor 2 for the driving pleasure. Not going back again.
@@litgeorge Yup, if it wasn't for the MP i'd have left it long ago even with a lot of dime invested in it. If ACC had good VR i'd leave it for good though
I think some sims make it feel like you're driving on ice to increase the difficulty. I haven't personally played it, but Nicki Thiim was very complimentary about how forgiving and realistic ACC is, so that might be a good alternative (for GTs). Similarly, GT Sport often feels like a trying-not-to-spin simulator, but you just have to get used to it and it takes a different skill.
Yeah Gran Turismo is the only other title I can think of that thinks once you go over the limit that's it. Similarly if you dare criticise GT the fanboys will be on you :D I actually got really anxious playing GT because of the tyre model/physics (scared to make mistakes), not what I would consider fun.
I'm new to iRacing but have raced sims on and off for 10 years. I've mostly raced the Mazda and there's two things that really stick out for me.
1. I can't hardly feel the front end and it's very difficult to know what is going on with the car from the FFB.
2. Once it starts to powerslide it's like the back tires turn into ice and there's no way to easily slide it with power on.
If you slide a car in iRacing the tyre model panics. Any surface change and the tyre model panics, so going off track/rejoining, or even touching a kerb with a rear wheel (it's really bad in the F1 cars). Sometimes just taking a high speed corner will be too much for the tyre model and it'll freak out. The bits that stood out for me from this video was "it feels like I'm driving on a wet track" and "the rears disconnected from the front" (they sum up iRacing for me).
Get used to racing the Mazda BTW, one of the reasons I gave up on iRacing (apart from the crap TM) was the poor participation in anything I was interested in. I've done so many laps in the MX-5 at Okayama I now hate both with a passion.
i've driven old BMWs with crappy tires in the wet that had more grip than the mazda on a dry race track in iRacing
it's a shame, because 90% of the sim is perfect: race schedules, car & track selection, online netcode.
I raced for two years from 2015 to 2017 then gave up.
I know they can fix the issues, however, I don't think they want to because they want to coax their users into thinking you need to be like the most precise driver of all time. I was testing at Homestead in an F4 car and I drifted through the eases in the rain, and I try and do something like that on one corner, fucks the whole lap. TL;DR, iRacing doesn't want to fix its issues that people complain about.
Could do a two-hour version of just Nicki Thiim ranting.
watch his 10 hour long nür24h stream
@@mikle65 I randomly tuned onto that stream and he was mid-rant about the tire model lol
I would watch that
Watch his Race of Vikings video he just posted 2 days ago. He complains multiple times about the tires. Even when he says he doesn't want to talk about it anymore, people in chat keep egging him on to talk more about it. He even said he doesn't like sim racing anymore and is only going to do it for special events like the Dirt 2.0 Rallycross Invitational.
@@fighter_rex6857 Guess that's why he's racing iRacing right now lol.
Austin Ogonoski, completely vindicated.
Sim racers are so deluded about the GAME they PLAY...
Well yeah, they don’t have the real world experience so how would they be able to tel it’s unrealistic. When they don’t listen to the people that DO have that experience, then there’s a problem.
You haven't heard Will Power or the other drivers when they aren't on camera on their feelings of the simulation.
This is TAME in comparison to what I've heard from Will, Josef, and even Lando.
link pls i wanna laugh
Me too. Lando hates it? Why is he still on it all the time, then? (Not defending iRacing, just curious... A reasonable person stops doing things they dislike, if they have the option to...)
@@riman8493 Not to rip on my bros but I have literally listened to my friends every night on teamspeak complain about how the cars drive, complain about getting wrecked out of races by some guy with three names, and complain about the cultists in the forums, but continue to race anyway. Whether it be sunk cost fallacy, the inability to want to learn how to road race, or the simple fact that there's nowhere else to race NASCAR online with people, it's a sort of soft-monopoly on sim racing.
By some guy with three names or by Juan guy with three names 😂
Austin Ogonoski #makeiracingcheaper
Get rid of subs or make cars and tracks free.
For what you pay for, you don’t get the value of.
Best sim out there they said, i'ts worth the money they said
Sadly, no title does everything really well.
So you have to boil down your options, and you choose the option that best fits your personal needs.
Most of us will never drive any of the cars we drive in sim titles, so we adapt to be as good as we can with what we have.
Just like it tales time to learn the nuances of a real life car, the same can be said for the virtual version of that car across different titles.
There's so much interest in sim racing right now that it's just going to keep getting better and better, and of course we can all be pissed with certain things in the meantime and switch from title to title.
But I tend to find I always come back to the one that works for me.
Everyone should do the same, and if none of them are good enough then do something else with your free time that makes you happy.
I agree with most of that comment but the reason why iRacing gets it's harsh criticism is due to the crazy cost of it and them marketing it as the "Leader in Sim Racing". The subscription cost I have no issue with as the competition and matchmaking is the best but it's buying the individual content on top of that with physics that just don't justify the cost.
@@averagesharpie It does stop people from coming back after being banned, the price tag I'd say is a reminder for people to not meme around
I dont know what the deal with Iracing and the bad tire model (perhaps an engine issue too?)is but if they cant do it properly then they would make a lot more in the long run if they hire some new developers. I love the multiplayer aspect of Iracing but they have dropped the ball hard on this
Trigenetic I think it could be more of a physics side of things
@@DearHalo_lover Are Pagenaud and Ferrucci getting banned? :D Spending all that money with the possibility of getting permabanned is a major negative IMO.
austin please let ian bell make his own iracing with no subscription
Raceroom literally is that now. They got a ranked system implemented similar to iRacing
@@boogityboogity7633 but raceroom's cars are kinda lame. People want supercars, lmp1s, etc. Raceroom is lacking behind doesnt even have a night mode
@@MrTripsJ I like their cars tbh. It's got more variety than the usual gt3 at spa simulator. But yea it being a rfactor game it lacks a lot of modern features
The biggest problem with raceroom is that it's just boring to drive. There is so little going on. Tracks feel smooth like glass and the cars are far more on rails than they should be. Just look at their 90ies DTM stuff.. those cars are supposed to be LOOSE... In r3e they just stick like they are glued to the pavement. I have no idea why people say they are good. They don't drive like anything I have seen on TV from that era.
@@riman8493 I can't comment on that since I have not really knowledge on physics and what not, but I do prefer not having to pay 10 bucks a month for iRacing and instead getting the same experience for free. :)
Latest tire model is better than before... now about that death snap oversteer...
To be fair, every vehicle shown in this video has the old tyre models where you can't catch even the smallest of drifts. Formula 3, Skip Barbers, and the production cars can actually be pushed without that much worry of an unrealistic spin .
Honestly this has been an excuse used over and over again to try and cover what's been bad for a long time no matter what tire model is on each car at any given time, plain and simple the tire models have been garbage and will continue to be garbage until the people that are there are replaced with new staff that wants to get it close to being right.
Inb4 all of these are invalid because they were all about the tire model version 46, whereas the new tire model version 47 is, once and for all, completely realistic and irrefutable and more accurate than real life
Holy shit, are they actually on version 46?
...no. I was exaggerating for comedic effect
@@bduddy55555 It's hard to tell. I would buy it.
"And more accurate than real life."
I love that sentence 😂
it is indeed more accurate than real life, by up to 169% more
If they werent real racecar drivers (remove the caption and remove the faces) fanboys would be storming the comments section telling they can't drive 🤣.
they storming them too))
The most connected I’ve ever been to a pretend car on a toy wheel was autombilista with a t300 and I’d rather go back to that than play I racing on my Osw also I enjoyed listening to Wolfgang Reip talking to Sim Racing Girl with his thoughts on the sims.
Enthusia for the PS2 with PCSX2 is actually pretty phenomenal if you get it set up correctly, and it encourages you to push harder while still driving clean.
Its impressive. I started on PC. Them grabbed AC and couldnt play PC anymore. Than grabbed AMS, take sometime to get used with the graphics downgrade, but man, I still have AC installed cos all the content, but ALL I play when connect wheel is Automobilista. I Hope AMS2 get on that level one day, with stuning graphics and VR.
Just lost a race in the 28th lap. Knew the tires were going, and was going easy. Indy car at Michigan. Started to slip-not even a slide, and GONE! For the millionth time.
iRacing definitely screwed something up... again. Still sticking around for the oval stuff though, since it's the ony thing there is right now. I hope someone develops a good oval sim with AI that has the same amount of content as iRacing.
I agree love the nascar stuff but the netcode and sometimes the way people drive kills it for me
@@Tennyson_W05 yeah the amount chopping people at the nose on short tracks and people running way wide is really annoying. And the netcode... Don't even get me started.
nr2003
I'm a racing driver and it's still bad.. the cold tire physics are the worst.
this needs to be reposted on the iracing forums untill they get their heads out of their asses.
For physics, go play rfactor or automobilista!
iRacing is for the multiplayer experience!
rFactor, is too old now, well past it's used by date, still will little no to no collision programming.
@@seawolf9616 Tire model for iRacing....Is a re-hashed one from Grand Prix Legends, and we ALL know how accurate the tire modeling was for that sim/cade!
This video is not allowed to be linked on Reddit because my mere existence triggers the moderators.
www.reddit.com/r/iRacing/comments/gazntc/where_did_the_discussion_post_about_the_tires_go/
Most of the general physics are good but the tire model needs A LOT of work. Still love this game, but they do need to address this.
in 2023, this isn't acceptable imo. Gone are the days of developers working until their game is perfect a la id Software. Now, it's gimme your cash.
@AdamT5 Then again, it could be worse, as we have seen what has been the meltdown at Motorsports Games
That's bullshit, and you know it@@adamt5
Go rFactor 2:)
iRacing is just a glorified Nascar 4/Grand Prix Lengends physics engine, rehashed by David Kaemmer. You "learn to play" Kaemmers driving physics like a game, and throw out everything you know about real racing car dynamics. And I've only scratched the surface with the driving model, the interaction with other cars on the track, well there isn't much! they interact like billard balls, totally unrealistic.
The ONLY realistic home desktop racing sim, were the ones programmed by Geoff Crammond of GP2/GP3/GP4 fame. Where his F1 car driving model was based on official data from F1 teams....Geoff even modeled F1 open wheel "tire ride up" fairly decently, when you contact another drivers wheels.....But as all of "Us old simmers" know, a certain large company took total rights to being the official F1 home simulation, and Crammond was no longer allowed to use real F1 data, so he gave up, and there on after this newe company, turned it back into a, game!
But yeah guys, go ahead and agree with all the real racing car driver hype with iRacing, and your hard earned dollars I might add.
I thought F1 Challenge '99-'02 (developed by ISI) was one of the best F1 games, I used to listen to F1 driver track guides and the car behaviour they described matched the game, and I used to copy their lines. I recall the AI being good in GP4, I wish a few titles now would hire him.
This is why I never thought about getting iracing. After watching people play it I didn’t like the way the cars looked like they just slid everywhere unnaturally. I feel like rf2 could be better if they got some modded content
I can only agree with them. On some cars it is averagely ok, on others the new tire model is a disaster. Very unrealistic on cold tires and when losing grip (no chance to recover it). If you want realistic handling go to Assetto Corsa Competizione, that is real as it gets (with some other drawbacks, but nothing is perfect).
I actually prefer Vanilla AC to ACC.
@@AustinOgonoski I'm curious why you feel that way. I haven't played ACC but I really don't think the vanilla AC cars handle realistically at all. The vanilla tire model is confusing also, you can flog a GT3 around a track on a 30C track temp and unless you're on the soft compound the tires won't hold heat. I don't think I'd play AC at all anymore if it weren't for the mod community (it's also great for drifting).
Pete Dellarco There's your answer. Every game sucks, there's no quality sim at all, and we are all losers who cant race for real. Debate over, delete this channel.
The issues are the tires. The problem is it isnt that easy to make an actual realistic tire model that accounts for everything real life does. It improves slowly all the time. They got it right in dirt racing, but there are less variables in that
Iracing have never taken criticism well over tire model for over a decade, problem now is everyone else has caught up and passed them in areas, scanned tracks? They all do now, accurate car data? Yep they all do , scan cars yep.... accurate weather changes they are holding on with temp but hardly with barometric changes like live weather. And of course tires imo rf2 and ACC do this better and even the EA of Automoblista 2 is doing it better than iracing.. now people can carry on about the temp data all they like, it's about the give squash slip in the tire rubber compound meeting the road that iracing has NEVER gotten right.. temp isn't everything although iracing thinks it is.
if im not mistake iracing doesnt even model both sidewalls the last time i looked into their data.
It isn't just the tyre model. The physics model exacerbates it further, because the cars feel like they are driving in a vacuum of space. They need to assess the weight of the cars further.
The tyre model was better in Beta. It should have stayed in Beta for much longer and not rushed to hell.
I hope this continues. It would be so great if what took iRacing down was pro drivers exposing it as something less than their marketing claims, especially since iRacing leans so hard on the idea that pro drivers use it to train because it’s so accurate...
lmao just because a few pros complain its not 100% realistic does not take away the fact its fun or has the best competitive multiplayer. If I wanted complete realism id have gone karting and wouldnt sit at my PC. And its not like theyre not trying to improve it year after year. smh
Fanatic but if you go to their website it doesn’t say “a fun game with good multiplayer” does it? It says “the most advanced realistic racing simulation available today” or something along those lines. No one gives a fuck if you personally like the game, but a lot of people are playing it rather than better games specifically because they believe those claims, and it’s also the justification for the insane amount of money that people pay to play it. That’s what makes the validity of those claims, and the opinions of those most qualified to validate them, important.
@@bensoniusprime A lot of people are playing it because they like it. Not because of what it says on the website. And most people believe it or not are able to research their options before they commit to one sim or another. What are the better options in your opinion btw?
Fanatic I’m sure there are plenty of people that are playing it for reasons other than its simulation value, but it’s pretty apparent from the focus of the marketing and from a lot of anecdotal evidence that the supposed realism of the game is a big reason why people choose it over other sims and are willing to pay the money they do for it. If that’s not a factor then why is it the primary focus of the marketing?
If we’re talking about tire model, then I’d have to say pretty much every other current generation sim is better than iRacing.
@@bensoniusprime There have always been racing games and other games marketing themselves as the most realistic blah blah. Its marketing. I also do not think that the tire behaviour is that extremely unrealistic that it would warrant not marketing the sim as realistic racing. Probably not to the extent they do but the sim is very realistic, has most of the real world series and has a very authentic competitive environment with its approach to multiplayer racing.
So it depends on what youre looking for. If you want the most realistic tire model then some of the other sims are probably better. If Im looking for a package that has a little bit of it all (physics, graphics, MP environment, realistic tracks and cars and many different options of series) then iRacing still blows all the others away.
In the end I have nothing against your issue that iRacing is marketing itself partly incorrectly. What I dont understand is why would you want this to bring iRacing down. Its a great sim and its being updated all the time. Its not like they are happy with the current shape and stopped working on it.
How does iRacing still have the exact same problem in 2023 with the cars, incident points system, blown tires or lack of that real things.
How have they not added rain, or added other kinds of mechanical damage to the car.
They only make profits at this point in time and its has not evolved other than additional software.
Beautifully said. Although you can get some good setups where it feels much better and there's no cliff, it's more of a hill like it should be.
You've just got to love Nicki Thiim. I'm excited to see him in DTM soon!
I'm glad to hear that about the tire model honestly. So unforgiving. Scared to ever actually push because of how fast they burn off. I love iracing, but my driving style and this tire model just do not work.
[OPPRESSIVE LAUGHTER]
Thank God! I thought I just sucked. It was the "tire model."
(I still suck)
Ever since iRacing introduced the new tire model its been really hard to control cars.
I drive on IRacing, I hate to agree with this. Especially in the road cars. As in my opinon IRacing has the greatest oval racing system of all time (that is in my opinon) road cars struggle so much, and in this video it’s the tires. I can head out to my local track and drive a formula vee and a RAY FF150 and the sim really struggles in the tyre models. Sure IRacing has a lot of pros, it has a lot of cons. I believe no game or sim can be truly perfect. But if you look at it from a standpoint. In a way IRacing came from NASCAR. Using software back from 2003 (NR2003) I get it maybe I just suck in road. But it Dosent feel, right. The cars are so unforgiving. Loose, sensitive. I say you wanna drive road? ACC.
You wanna play? ACC
You wanna race? iRacing
Lol. This will trigger the iRacing shills and fanboys.
Not really, I'm a diehard iracing supporter or "fanboy" as you call it & I totally agree with this vid, as do most loyal iracers. Having been a member since 2009 this has been an ongoing issue for years. Ive driven real race cars (late models) & it's allot easier to control a real car for sure.
sim cars are harder to drive
I thought it was just the AI supercars that had the rolling. Holy shit, this is embarrassing.
What a money grab scam
Lmao this video is 4 years old, the tire model has been completely overhauled since this.
The grass is made from ball bearings and oil..
Game doesn’t have great physics but multiplayer is top notch
And Multiplayer infrastructure is the only saving grace at the moment for iracing.
guys, let's be honest : if iracing would be free, without the multiplayer structure it has, let's say the regular sim with off and online part, as usual, how would you rate it compared to the other sims? I mean, considering the factors you take into place when judging all sims, physics, ffb, content, fun, driving experience, etc. so take away from that all things related to "money", let's say it comes for 59.99 -euro or dollars or whatever - all content included, the standard cost for sims nowadays.
my answer? pretty low on the list, on every aspect. but i understand why people still defend it, i never heard anyone saying "i pay a monthly fee for this shit, and i keep on doing it".
my 2 cents.
I still wouldn't play it if it was free, I don't say that to be harsh it's just I'd rather play stuff I enjoy. I would buy iRacing track packs if they existed for other sims, even if they followed the current pricing model. AC/ACC has much more reasonable DLC pricing though, and their tracks are laser-scanned as well.
I cant not like iracing because the online competition is great its works so well. It just does my nut that after all these years nobody can produce a sim to rival the online experience you get from iracing.
nicki thiim scared the shit out of me
Max has no problem controlling the cars on iracing.
A lot of it is likely because the peaky slip angles in most cars on iR resemble how the Pirelli compounds work in F1.
We need more videos like this so we can expose iracing. I hope they will fix it but I know how hard headed they are so i know how much of long shot it is. The good news is that more of thee types of videos are surfacing so hopefully we can see some changes or at least another sim get more exposure.
From an ex-racing driver, all you guys should try rFactor 2 or rFactor 1.5... huuuu Automobilista I mean.
I'm disappointed with iRacing. The last few months have felt terrible when compared to how it was when I joined and simracing didn't explode. Multiple glaring issues are pointed out every week in the forums(tires, curb fidelity etc.) and there has been radio silence from the staff, it feels like an echo chamber where the voices of only a few select people are heard who can call others idiots and keep talking pedantics about FFB or other useless stuff to protect the shortcomings of the service being provided from iRacing, you criticise the system or the shortcomings even a little and you have these forum veterans with no racing experience since years come in and hound up on you before they eventually tell you to leave iRacing if you don't like it. I was truly disappointed last week when I saw a certain very respected member of the service and a respected guy irl too tell a guy to take his money somewhere else if he has a problem with how the staff operates, and his evidence for the tire model going in the right direction was a very old anecdote where he saw some things on Kaemmer's whiteboard that he did not understand. When will people start to realise that we have been splashing money at Dave Kaemmer for the last 12 years to give us a good product, not a fucking Nature publication about tire behavior, there are guys at universities for that stuff. Its not completely iRacing's fault too, people on the forum worship staff as if they are godmen, a staff comes in on the forum and tells us "Yes I l know the tires are shit on the Indycar, we wanted to make them right but could not roll them out on time", now that is a fucking lame excuse, and the worst part was that people on the forum, instead of asking him further questions or to do something asap, started thanking him for a reply and just posting cringe stuff like photos of cats, and asking if they can send pizza. Our development is only so slow because people won't stop sucking on the dev's cock. Just check out whenever people have inquired the staff something on the forums, 90% of the times the staff has given a fucking excuse for things that an expensive simulator like iRacing should have, for example tire compounds, a functioning tire, weather, cars that are not outdated by the time they're released, more track diversity, better sound, graphics etc. Every fucking time a stupid fucking excuse that can be solved just by not looking at everything in terms of monetary return but the simulation value, people will pay for it anyhow if you release cool stuff. All staff members say that they are passionate af about this sim and work days and nights, but we have these "tech tracks" which have been incomplete since even before I joined in 2016, and the excuse that they gave us is that modeling stuff will take too much time and won't be worth it at the end of the day, well what can I say about their passion.
I have started losing interest in simracing just seeing how community interactions are at iRacing when it comes to voicing your opinions about what can help move the sim forward. I wouldn't have invested my country's average monthly income into this sim if I did not see value or a future ahead but now I do regret ever investing so much, but nevertheless I don't see myself renewing my subscription until iRacing get their head out of their ass and realise they can only do one thing at a time, please their customers who have stuck with them for so long or please outsiders on the TV who won't give a rats ass about a video game when the lockdown lifts.
If you're looking for online competition and think iRacing is the way to go, save your money and get ACC or join one of the so many leagues on other sims, you won't be racing more than 2-3 times a week unless you're jobless or just have too much time to kill. /Rant over
Everyone hyped iracing so I tried it about a month ago and right away you can just feel how much the cars slide and instantly loose grip and feels nothing like a real car. Not sure how anyone can defend it unless being paid off.
Kinda the opposite actually, people have spent so much on it, sometimes thousands they need to justify the expense. Even now when other titles have laser-scan tracks, and multiplayer matchmaking systems (even safety ratings) it's still totally worth it apparently. I get why oval racing fans have no real alternative but on the 'road' side you have so many options.
Has this been posted on iRacing yet, no doubt it's been taken down ???
The video is posted in multiple forum threads, nothing got taken down. During downtime the forum's recent tab gets a reset so people couldn't see it immediately. The video is still there as it does not violate forum rules, simple as that.
If my Porsche 944TS track car handles like many of the iRacing track cars on the first couple of laps I'd throw a match on it and burn it to the ground 😅
RFACTOR2 PLEASE do something to kill iracing..
No other choices as rFactor2, Assetto Corsa Competizione nor Automobilista 2 focuse on Nascar.
Maybe at some point Nascar heat will be more of a sim than iRacing
@@boogityboogity7633 that's not gonna happen, unfortunately
@@mkotechno3972 Lol ignorant as hell..
Thank you!! i mean, games like iRacing, ACC, Rfactor2 etc.. can easly modify those values and do games even more close to reallity, thanks to this guys!! so lets hope the lessons could be learned by those game producers.
I think the tire model is addressing these complaints and is at least improveable.
Thanks to Corona iRacing might be improved because real drivers are getting frustrated lol
And the worst thing is, real drivers will probably think this is sim racing if they are told that iracing is the pinnacle of sim racing, and they won't touch good sims like rFactor 2, AMS, AMS2, ACC.
@ChambersofSiege Nicki Thiim says otherwise. In fact, he's constantly praising it and saying how he can "dance" with the car as he can in real life.
David Perel also praises it.
Now, I don't think he tried the gt cars in rFactor 2 yet, but I yhink he'll like it even more.
Still, it's undeniable that ACC is really good.
What about PCars 1 and 2? In VR? Mr Bell himself said one to many times these games were not real.....
@ChambersofSiege I hope for your neighbours' sake you haven't got an actual driving licence then.
@@nakazonegamestreaming896 Don't get me wrong, the PCars series look amazing, from a graphics standpoint. However, their tire model is just off, snap oversteer in understeery cars.
@@amandasantini6265 I will give you that sometimes the cars will snap, but that is usually cos fellas use too high Gain, so the wheel is always too heavy, it should be known that these cars all have power steering and are very light until something goes terribly wrong, anyways I have more than a 1000 hours between PCARS 1 and 2 so maybe I just learned to get used to its flaws, what about AMS 2, have you tried? very fantastic for an early access. I stream on Twitch sometimes under evandronakazone2020 if you wanna check it. See you around racer....
Well apparently they have not made the tire model any better in the last 5 years that I have stepped away from iRacing. They need to make the cars more slidable.
A few points:
1. iRacing is not perfect. No one believes that and no one defends that.
2. Other sims do things well. Yes. People who use iRacing understand that and know that. Most probably have other sims and drive them too.
3. Development on the tires for iRacing and physics in general has been an ongoing process that involves talented people working with all of the tools they have. This includes getting impressions from race drivers.
4. The iRacing community is mostly cool with discussing the issues with the sim. So is the dev team. No one needs to cut through the 'iRacing fanboyism'. Just because many people choose iRacing does not mean they think it's perfect.
5. A sort of "crusade" against iRacing people or staff is pretty dumb. Open discussion about the problems is fine and happens all of the time. But there seems to be a somewhat immature cohort that are crusading to "get it fixed". Ok fine. But it's not gonna change the devs, who have been working hard for years to improve. Can it help customers make a purchasing decision? Sure.
Anyway, there's a lot of people talking past each other. So, I thought I'd lay this out there.
TRVE KVLT
still not wanting to face it huh? trve kvlt...
Do you think its more of a problem with physics or just the lack of seat if your pants feel that you don't have like yoy would in a real car
Its all in the tire model they need to steal the rfactor model
If only they would listen to constructive criticism from real-world racers instead of going on the defensive, they may truly end up being the best racing simulator out there, when will they learn?
Why do you (and so many others) think reputation management and research and development are mutually exclusive???
@@CaryBettenhausen3 you gain more support by welcoming criticism from professionals rather than squashing it and asking them to not make any open comments. Censorship of any kind is bad for a brand's reputation online.
i(ce)Racing
👏
Bravo sir...... Bravo
I love the multiplayer aspect and competitiveness of iRacing. I haven't driven real race cars but to me it also feels like most cars loose control way too easily. Like the real drivers say in this video you'd expect to be able to play with the cars on the limit for atleast a bit. The fact that you approach the limit of grip and the car just spins out of control feels very artificial.
I am very tempted to cancel my subscription on iracing you have sims like rf2 ams2 acc and even ac that do things better and you don't have to pay $100s of dollars per year. I feel iracing has just become a esport game rather then being a actual racing sim.
But sadly it's the only modern oval option... Wish it wasn't, but it is
I would agree, iRacing is going into that eSports dedicated direction and it might not turn out good for the members.
It's because to go fast people do unrealistic setups. Do a realistic setup and the car handles as it should.
I agree with you, but i was thinking. real drivers will always find sim racing more difficult, because usually the only input they get from the car is the is the steering wheel (and motion rigs are limited). This doesn't happen in real life where there are a lot of different forces acting on them. I think even if the physics on a simulator where perfect they would still say that it's harder.
A lot of these drivers have no issues with other games. Nicki Thiim and David Perel for example play a ton of Assetto Corsa Competizione.
Perel says ACC is 'more realistic' but he still can't hussle the ferrari the way he can in RL, I asked him what was the closest car to his in RL and he said the Aston.
@@mrbungle83 That's still a better deal for $30 than paying $99 a year to have a car spin out at 50 mph.
@@AustinOgonoski totally agree, but I have my doubts about the realism of all sims, still enjoy ACC it seems to click with me until the rear just washes out and the delta shows you your lap dying, I literally have to shake the wheel left to right on occasion to regain traction. It's the swooning over it that makes me laugh in the kunos forums some dude was saying RL drivers opinions are useless because they don't understand how to set sims up.
@@mrbungle83 Austin covered a guy on the old AC forums that was a test driver for Porsche and/or Mercedes and he was giving really in depth feedback as to how the cars handle in game and how they actually handle. Lord Kunos (Stefan) came out and called the guy an idiot and told him to read a book. The fanboys went wild.
Great vid. Hopefully iRacing will start to listen
So iracing is the apple of sim racing? Users swear by it, pros hate it?
and now that intresting thing, INDYCAR tyres not been update to new tyre model :D
they work like ntmv6. Btw in one race Newgarder spin after contact, BUT! Rosenkvist save it easy in powerslide style =)
in other way about sliding and unforgiven, in real feel changing G-Forces help alot to catch slide at start and use it(mostly about indy/nascar). In sim racing start moment of slide you cant feel, only foresee(only very expirienced in that sim guys).
rolling cars fixed, cold tyres not fixed for v8sc(stay better, but not that to need).
guess 10 people at iracing didn't like this video :) good stuff and exactly what a lot of us has been saying for the last 10 years or so,50mph spins on hairpins in a car with hot sticky tyres is my biggest gripe.
said all along it feels like you are on rain tyres on a hot track.
But I thought "Ibracing-for-impact" was perfect bro...
I see the murder kurbs on iracing are even worse then assetto corsa I never thought I will see that.
Well the pandemic has been a boom for Iracing, but it does expose the thing I thought myself the cars feel like your driving on a greased/iced track. The Mazda Mx cup cars are only cars I would expect this since I’m assuming they use street tires?. But I guess if they keep up the good work they will get a grip on the tire model.
At least Josef had the decency to be constructive in a good way about the tyre problem but Nicki Thiim? Rants like he usually does and shouts like a damn fool.
Thiim can say whatever the fuck he wants considering he's one of the best GT drivers on the planet.
@@AustinOgonoski Swearing? How cute.
Ryan Walker boo hoo a professional driver said a “potty word” so his opinion doesn’t count.
@@AustinOgonoski how do you expect people to take a 30 year old guy throwing childish tantrums on the internet seriously, him being a good driver is another matter.
@@1245aryan The fact that you describe a guy obviously goofing around on twitch and acting like a WWE version of himself to entertain people as a "tantrum" is what's wrong with the sim racing community.
You have to pay so much Money to play IRacing and you get this crap of tire simulation. It's ridiculous.
Edit: Nicki, you are the best!
Maybe they are trying to change the brand name to iWrecking.
They are two different things. One translates to the other in terms of building character and consistency. Plot twist: It's not pro to sim....
it all seems to be iracing related, it is bar far also the worst of the sims when talking about tire models, and simulation, it is based on such a old engine that is just patched beyond recognition. But it is the ONLY place where matchmaking and clean racing is present, so for competition this is the ONLY place to race... if Raceroom, or Rfactor2 or even automobilista, could make the same structure and point setup, license it would WRECK iracing, but there are not enough money in doing that.. so just see iracing as it is, a great place to compete, but just not a "SIMULATOR"
ice racing should be banned.
Seriously. If the multiplayer system was in AC, and it had enough players to fill lobbies, it would absolutely smack iRacing. Except for nascar but who cares really.
@@scriblestingray5713 a lot have change in the 2 years since i had done that post, BUT i still stand by it, AC has GOOD lobbies, but you have to work more in getting into good lobbies with proper ruleset, also a LOT of drivers have tried, and end with the same conclusion that bad behaviour just does not get punished so it does not matter, i also think that Iracing is upping the game with better handling of newer cars, so it is better, however they are still carrying the old engine around, which is single core optimized, and not really great. played ACC and no.. personally that game has never worked for me
Disagree. I think most people (including most sim makers) know it's not a perfect recreation. It's why sim racing and real racing are separate skills but still with a pretty remarkably big overlap. I think that is what was really proven if you look carefully. Also it's shown to more people that if treated seriously it can produce some great competition, sometimes even more interesting that the real life racing. That said iRacing needs to make some adjustments to it's "slip" difficulty to be more in line with reality.
Niki has the best feedback though. :). He loves iRacing but he's honest about it's shortcomings.