To celebrate this video, we're giving away a set of the excellent Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 tyres, including fitting! All you need to do is subscribe and follow this link - www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Win-a-set-of-Goodyear-Eagle-F1-Asymmetric-3-Tyres.htm
I have a proposal for you: a non-runflat similar test on xDrive BMW (3er, 5er). It seems that not only me, but others also, have a problem with the ESC(ESP) setup for the xDrive, that it's a bit too sensitive, because I guess they only consider the runflat tyres. When I activate the DSC, I'm not having any problems
@Tyre Reviews giving away set of tyres sounds great but what about with your international viewers where fitting is pretty much impossible, you lads not gonna send the tyres to overseas isn't it?
Don’t know if you did. maybe next time think about putting tyres on and not telling driver what tyres are on, this might eliminate subconscious bias or hesitation.
I would be very keen to see this test conducted with a performance FWD vehicle such as a hot hatch. It seems that in dry conditions, increasing the front tyre size slightly for a FWD vehicle would be a universal good, providing better braking and handling while also allowing more contact for the drive wheels. I really enjoy the scientific approach of this channel and I've been consuming a lot of these longer studies since I've found it. Well done.
The front tires in a fwd or awd car are taxed differently and make a different contact patch than in a rwd car. You can see the difference in skid pad tests and it always comes down to the tire width.
@@sussolus not tire brand or model. Because you can have the best tire in the world but if its not the right size well thats worse than any bad tire in the right size
Such a useful video for anyone who wants to better understand tire dynamics. Thank you! We reached very similar conclusions while running a pair of Spec Boxster cars in Time Trials over many years. In the dry on fairly technical tracks with a lot of cornering and lateral G forces, the 255 square had the edge in times with both cars. On a long Super Speedway with fewer corners and long high speed straights, the 225/255 stagger was a bit quicker with higher speeds at the end of the straights. On a very wet track day with a lot of standing water the 225 square managed to shed water, avoid hydroplane, and make better contact with the track surface as we put down comparative laps.
Fantastic video! Thank you! The only thing I'd like to see now would be 8", 8.5", 9", 9.5" wheels with a 255 width tyre to see how it goes with sidewall stretch
I agree with Brad....many people don't consider the effect different wheel widths have on choosing a tire width. I have always gone by the rule that the tread width on the ground should be no greater than the wheel width or very slightly less which is called a stretched setup. Once the tire gets wider tread width than the wheel width it will start lifting up the edge and squirming around reducing steering precision and turn in for tracking or autocross. Looking forward to a future video about this.
What I find interesting is what BMW have done with various stock M cars lately. I have an F13 M6 hence my interest in this. It runs 9.5" and 10.5" wheels with 265 and 295 tyres. The F10 M5 has the same tyres but on 9" and 10" wheels. But where it gets more interesting to me is the F8x M3/M4 have 9" and 10" wheels but either 255 and 275 tyres on the 18" and 19" options, but then 265 and 285 on the optional 20" wheels which are still 9" and 10". Then you have the new F90 M5 with the same wheel widths as the M6 at 9.5" and 10.5" but they run 275 and 285 tyres. Surely they could have used a 10" rear with 285 tyres but they decided not to. I suspect they are tuning the handling characteristics and comfort by doing this, but the differences must be slight and will really only be noticed by expert drivers.
"but the differences must be slight and will really only be noticed by expert drivers" I feel like this will be the overriding findings from the test, but I'm still happy to try :)
I agree the differences will be slight, I think I'm mainly interested because of what BMW have done in the last 5 years with their M cars and some of the different widths they've done. I didn't mention the M2 but that has 245 and 265 tyres but with the same 9" and 10" wheel widths that the M3, M4 and F10 M5 have.
10:50 Now thats a bad example of screwing bolts on. I am mounting 15 000 Tires a year and i would ruin many bolts if i dont start turning them by hand first.
People can complain about the thumbnail and that’s why I initially clicked it, but I’m just glad you guys did the comparison under practical conditions! Plus the results I imagine would be the same even if a setup like in the thumbnail was actually feasible. Thanks as always for your thorough testing and informative content 🙏
I know I'm coming late to the party, but everything you said is spot on. I drove a Trans am and went from a 225 50 16 and moved to a 255 50 16 and it made a huge improvement on dry. When driving on wet roads especially where the water might puddle on the edges of the road. Having one wheel hit the water while the other was maintaining traction produced interesting results for me. I would have to have a very firm grip on the wheel or the car would try to rip the steering wheel from my hands and hydroplane or steer itself. The brand of tire and the compound makes a noticeable difference also. When water is pooled on the road it's best to drive like an old woman, and stay alert, especially if you have the ability to put some power down. Just my experience over the years. You'll notice more if you drive with a set of tires for a few months, and then switch to a different tire compound and width. Good presentation.
always keep the best tread on the rear axle to stop car rotation in loss of traction conditions! (i.e. tyre rotation is not a good thing, especially on FWD)
There's good video on this topic by Andrew White, the guru of offroading. The video is titled "TIRES. FAT OR SKINNY for Overland Touring?" at ruclips.net/video/9h3T_QicRqg/видео.html
Someone's comment on Andrew's video had some helpful tips: Yvonne Wood says: I am lucky to have travelled in remote parts of Kenya and am good friends with a safari guide. His opinion was wide tyres in sand tends to float more than a narrow one (affecting stability adversely), but because it builds more of a 'wall' in front of the tyre, drag is increased quite dramatically. With a lower powered vehicle, it can be to such an extent that the vehicle may be unable to overcome the increased drag and become stuck. It is all down to tyre physics. A tyre when deflated has a much longer foot print, not much wider at all. Therefore, a wider tyre may not be very good on a lower powered vehicle. I have a Land Rover Series III and I have a 5.50" x 16" wheel with 7.50 R16 tyres for this reason. If it had more than 69bhp, I may look at a 235/85 R16 on 1-Ton 6.50" x 16 wheels, but it doesn't.
You run all 4 tyres the same size, the max you can fit in the front determines the size for the rear axle. In a reasonable way, if you got 100hp you don't need to fit in 255s ;-)
Very slick. You have come on a long way! I really hope the other tyre companies are watching and taking note... this is great advertising and great consumer advice at the same time. More of this would be great.
Exactly! Especially when Tyres are a *Critical Key Part* of your car... Done it myself: try ANY average street car, fit if with better tyres. A world of difference! (Honda Accord, VW Passat 2.5 & 36R, Toyota Corolla & my "oldies"); managed to make them MUCH better performing cars with above average tyres: handling, breaking, road noise, riding comfort, in the wet... Nowadays I concentrate a LOT on tyres, hence avoiding some other mods that can be expensive and cumbersome. And NO wider and taller is often not the answer...
On my e36 M3 (U.S.) with staggered 17s, went from 225\45 & 245\40 to 235\40 & 255\40... Helped the front end so much. Very consistent feel, neutral balance. I feel like the extra width on same rim helps prevent the sidewall from rolling under in higher corner loads. The rear didn't change much, stock clutch might complain with extra traction. Plus that extra curb protection is handy for parallel parking.
Excellent video, really. I was surprised at the results as I think the 255's all way round were the best all around performers. I say this even though I have converted mid power (~200 HP or Torque) sports cars to staggered configurations for years (decades). I find that I have more precision steering feel in the turns on twisty two lane mountain roads. I don't drive on a track. I went down to 205's on my Supra Turbo and my Z3s. Both had 225 rears. And I went down to 225's on my Z28, keeping the 245 rears. My Boxster came staggered with 205's up front, even though it has 255 rears. I did however like 225 all around on my T-Bird Turbo Coupe, and my 330cic. I may actually go up to 245 rears on the 330cic next summer. All those cars started out between 200-225 HP or Torque. (The z28 grew to 550 HP) The Miata is the funniest, after playing around with bigger, taller, wider tires, I went back to the original 185 14". Just not enough power there, more fun to slide around on the narrower tires, haha.
@@boranbori Yes, But... There is an ideal width for every given model. There is a long list of factors that affect your decision. The weight and power of the car, keeping the tire model/compound the same, may be the next most significant factors. I remember a friend had a front engine 67 mustang with cartoonish oversized Mickey Thompson tires and he couldn't get traction at all on the street. Plenty of power but not enough "pounds per square inch" weight on the rear tires. At another extreme I considered putting spare donuts on the rear of Miata just so I could learn how to drift. So that at the end extremes you could have a tire that is too narrow, or too wide to get the proper amount of traction. The 275s on my Z28 got plenty of traction on a hot dry day, but they slid around when it got wet or cold. One day it started snowing on my way home and after stopping for a red light it wouldn't go across an intersection, they often have a slight high point in the center to allow water runoff to the corners. To me it's a Goldilocks equation: Not too narrow, not too wide; not too short, not too tall a profile. Not too sticky, not too hard a compound; not too slick, not too many sipes. 😁
I am about to go from 245 front / 265 rear to a 265 front / 285 rear on a RWD Q50 Red Sport 400, and this was exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Very informative, thank you!
I never thought of the wider tires' footprint getting shorter, which makes wider tires not have a much greater contact surface. What I remember from my physics classes in school though is that grip only depends on the friction coefficient (which depends on the materials) and the force applied (in this case, the weight on the wheels). According to that, more rubber in contact with the ground shouldn't make any difference in grip, however I also know that two important issues in tires are deformation and (as the guy in the video says) overheating, and a bigger tire suffers less from those.
I remember reading somewhere that a narrower tire sheds water better than a wider tire; you've proved that with this video. Thanks for that, and everything else :D
There is a little more to that issue. Continue reading only if you are really interested into this toppic or else you'll be bored until the end of this sentence :) Wider tyre means more weight since you need to have more metal on your rims and more rubber on your tyres. That added weight will reduce your overall power output. Including the fact that more rubber means more friction resistance (if this is the correct term in english for that). For an optimum setup you need to consider your overall power of the car and accordingly choose the proper tyres, rims and dimensions of both. And to top it up consider weight too. Rims do not weight the same. Usually OEM wheels are lighter then some aftermarket set of rims but that is not always true. There are brands who specialise in lightweight alloys like OZ and their Ultraleggera and many others. Also if you take two tyres, same size and you put them on a scale they will weight differently. If you put top brands in your digest along with optimal dimensions of rims and tyres you probably end up with only a few options to run with. Also if you wish to add more performance to your steering, acceelerating and braking then consider some sport coilovers. The stiffer ride will allow you to transfer acceleration and braking power faster to the wheels since the car doesn't have to fight too much movement caused by weight transfer. That is the moment when you for example accelerate and the front goes way up high and the rear goes really deep down. Until this movement reached its limit you won't have maximum power transfer to your wheels. Last but not least: tyre pressure. Too much and you slip, too little and you'll stick to the ground like driving on glue. To start somewhere take your existing setup of wheels and simply put them on a scale. Note the weight, take off one tyre and weight both separately and note the weights again. Then take that scale and visit some shops who are willing to allow you to weight their rims and tyres and then get yourself an overview of what is possible. For example a combo of 17" rims and wheels should be around 20kg if the rim has 8" and the tyres are 205/50. Bigger sized rimms will have less unsprung weight making them heavier thus reducing your power output. Same size rims and larger tyres means more material thus more weight. Wanna lose more weight? Skip using runflats. They are even heavier, stiffer and they are noisy too. What is so important about wheels? It is a mass the car has to turn to start going somewhere. Rotating a mass is more power consuming then just simply pushing weight forward (i.e. the rest of the car including you in it). For that reason go cart racers jump up and down in their seats after start. They remove their body mass for a sharp moment allowing the cart have more power for a slight cut of a second. You do not need to do that in your car since your weight gain would be close to zero in comparison to the overall weight of the car :) but you can do it for fun... and crash your car seconds after as you'll be all over the pedals and such :) As I mentioned "just pushing weight forward" then you might reconsider what you really need to carry along with you. Spare tyre? Leave it at home and gain some weight loss. Lots of crap in your trunk and other compartnents? That is weight too. Choosing a new car with or without a sunroof? Well that comfy thing is high up and has a massive ballance and weight impact on your car. You can do a lot to your car to keep it daily and make the most of it. You can also take it a step forward and going for some lightweight racing seats in the front, remove rear seats completely etc etc... but that is kinda not my thing. But it may be yours :) Don't belive what I am writing here? Then be my guest and use Google all the way to check for yourself :) Take this as a starting point if you like and be ready to be surprised what else you can do to improve performance and still keep yourself road legal and daily usable. Cheers
BMW E 46 compact 1.8 petrol engine. 115hp 17" wheels. I run 225 both F & R. What do you advice I go for Goodyear asy5, PS4, Conti PC6 and what combo, 225, 235 or 245 square or 225 235 or 225 245 F&R combos? And for those who want to talk shit about an underpowered car, I don't race sport hatchs like Megan rs with 250hp I am pretty fast for everyday cars with 150hp with their 2ton boats.
So you'd be using bigger wheels as well, so despite the unsprung mass disadvantage. Quicker times are still made with a bigger contact patch, awesome thanks for the test this was exactly what I was looking for.
I did this on my Audi I went from 225/55-16 8inch wheel to 245/40-17 on a 9inch wheel and I found wide tires hold straight line stability but dont like to turn as much as the thinner tires :) as always the quality of the rubber is massively important I find that even bald premium tires are grippier than any of the Chinese ditchfinders you can buy! Michelin is great but conti Dunlop pirelli and the like are amazing too, I highly recommend Uniroyle for UK roads though they are my favourite by far but actually running Michelin pilots right now lol Edit - forgot to mention iv never had Goodyear's but I hear good things from people who use them so you should totally send me them :)
On a regular car the best reason to run a bit wider tires is just the look of the car. Not quite so much on newer vehicles that come out with wider tires anyway but any older cars that run like 185-205 tires gets a nice refreshing touch with running something like 215-235 wide.
Friction is independent of tyre width. What plays in are factors like heat behavior and sidewall deformation. Here, low profile, wider tyres are better in races.
I'd like to throw in my experience of of changing tyre sizes. I have an e46 330 (228bhp) which came with 225/45/r17 all round. the rears were eagle f1s with over 4mm and i found it quite easy to get them spinning pulling out of junctions and on wet days. this kicked in the traction control and killed all power. very annoying whilst trying to pull into a gap in traffic. I bought new alloys which are F 235/35/r19 and R 275/30/r19. the rears are nexen with 5mm and the increase in grip is fantastic. I now have to rev aggressively high and drop the clutch hard to get the TC to kick in. before it was something always in my mind whilst pulling away. I've had these 4 months now and summer has been very good in the south of england here so i'm yet to see what a true wet performance is like but day to day it was a great improvemnt. The car was very oversteery with the old setup and now it feels slightly biased to understeer but its hard to notice as i don't thrash it often. i also get a bit of tram lining with the new setup. I'd like to see a 0-60mph test with different tyre sizes in the future to see if you can get a better launch. I know I do from my experience but didn't measure. I just know i can rev 500+rpm more when dropping the clutch. great channel and keep up the good work.
Glad you're enjoying them! I did try acceleration tests but getting consistent results proved to be very difficult in the cars we were using. Braking is like reverse acceleration I guess
"Braking is like reverse acceleration" that's actually a great analogy now i think about it. perhaps it doesn't decrease time but it certainly makes launches easier
@@ilikepienurma don't forget to realise that your sense of extra grip is not entirely down to the wider setup of tyres like you think, it's partially down to the bigger diameter wheel hence lower torque output to the ground so you will think you have more grip..
Having watched a previous video, I now run my car on one winter tyre, one all season, one summer bias all season, and one summer tyre. It saved a lot of money, but I don't like the sense of uncertainty it's brought to my life. I think I might go with a more conventional, square set up now. Cheers.
Given a constant vehicle weight, and equal tire pressures, the tire contact patch does not increase in size with a wider Tire. All that changes is the shape of the contact patch. A lot of people do not understand this concept.
Twobarpsi I suspect alot of the difference in this test is down to heat management too. Being more rubber on a wider tyre there is less heat to deal with than a narrow tyre. Theoretically the closer to square the contact patch the more area there is contacting the ground so that would suggest a narrower tyre.
the AREA doesn't change, not the perimeter. so it doesn't matter much if it's a square or a really stretched rectangle. they're both going to have the same area.
Excellent video. I've got an X5 with the factory 255/50/R19 wheels and tires, but I want to go up to a 285/35Z/R21. The 20's only come staggered with 315's in the back and 285's up front. I think that's way too big. This video cleared up a lot of questions I had.
There's something else I might suggest which is the shoulder of the Tyre. Some cars will handle better with a rounded shoulder because of the suspension geometry (typically light weight sports cars and classics) while others favour a square shoulder (modern cars and those that tend to be heavier.) My brother purchased and a 90s sports car and when he switched to a rounded shoulder tyre (which the guys at his local tyre shop talked him into) it really made the car come alive in corners, the car just danced beautifully afterwards whereas before it was just snappy at the limit. Vast improvement!
My W218 CLS350 came with 255/285 19" as standard. I'm very happy with the way car drives and behaves. Always was wondering about the different sizes. Good video.
Great video, i was considering widening my car and suspension to fit bigger wheels, but seeing the little difference it actually makes i'll just stick to how it is right now
@@ashscott6068Interesting take. I think it depends if you can get the right balance of weight to width ratio. I prefer heavier wheels, it makes the car feel more grounded.
This man can go through an entire five minute presentation without transposing a single figure or setup while driving, more than most people can do with a script in front of them at home.
Excellent comparison. Love your videos and thanks for your suggestion for the Goodyear F1a3 I got them and indeed running very quiet and comfortable, probably better than my previous Michelin PSS. The only downside is that it is not as connected to the road as PSS which I can certainly live with for the comfort yet still sure-footed.
A great explanation of pros and cons of having a square set up and an asymmetric set up on a rear wheel drive car and why BMW fit the latter. As mentioned a more powerful rear wheel drive car would highlight rear grip advantage of wider tyres.
Didn't expect 225 to be that good in the wet - but not that surprised though. In DH skateboarding which I practice, narrower wheels tend to function better in the wet.
I went from 245 square stock setup to a 275 square setup with lighter wheels running the Goodyear Eagles. grip seems about the same but lighter wheels seemed to make the most difference with braking and acceleration. I cut 36lbs of rotational mass.
I have 330d E46 with 280HP. And exactly same tires 225 square. I did couple weeks ago 2600km trip in two days and had few moments with dramatic weather. I have to say that I was amazed with wet handling of these tires. I had one moment when I went into really wet area from dry road in just a second. I was driving 160-220kmh before so I got used to speed. After about half of a minute I realized that I'm doing 140-160kmh on really wet road. It shocked me. Of course I immediately slowed down to 100-130kmh but these tires really do the job done. I have to add that I have fairly new tires 6-7mm. And these are cheap tires. I paid for 4 tires 17" 1000PLN, so around 270USD including taxes.
I think the reason why BMW puts narrower tires on the front of the car from the factory has to do less with performance and more with safety. Most road cars are engineered to understeer by design so that they are more manageable in situations that result in loss of traction. Understeer is far less scary than oversteer for the average driver.
Wider tires also wear slower. Since most power is sent to the rear wheels on that car, it makes sense to put wider tires so that tires wear more evenly.
Fatter front tires doesn’t always mean better handling. Look at Porsche and Ferrari an& how they achieve great dynamic steering .a narrow tire can actually turn much quicker in the right car.
yeah these were roughly my thoughts when i considered getting tires for my car (Audi A5 FWD). went with 245 square, nice middle ground i thought, and has worked out quite well for me in all conditions.
Agree with rather spending money on a premium standard dimension tyre vs a cheap brand wider tyre. I’ve used Goodyear F1 on many cars and been very happy with it.
Thanks for your research! 👌 I have driven some 3series and 4series with 225/255 and I wasn't really happy with their understeer (in 19" it was 328i, 428i and 435i). 225/225 (18") is in fact slower, but it makes (me) more fun to drive as you feel some kind of oversteer if you like to. I loved it - it felt more neutral overall. That was even my option in a 440i, what is the best you can get beneath the M4.
So you are saying that 225/255 doesn't slide on corners more than 225/225, and you stick with 225 so you can earn some more oversteer right ? I would appreciate if you answer 🙂
@@boranbori I prefer 225/225, because there is less understeer and a more agile feeling. I think 225/255 is faster and you'll have better traction. If necessary you can't switch from rear to the front to get better tyres at the back. I'm driving now 225/255 in the summer and 225/225 for the winter. I would prefer 225/225, but in my case I can only get 225/255 with 18 inch wheels (so called "Mischbereifung" in Germany). I never was a fan of it and I think a normal BMW works better with 225/225 or 245/245. But I really like a more agile rear.
Glad I came upon this. First Q - did you change rim sizes? Because that is really important. Wider tires can give you more area, but the weight is distributed over a wider area, so is less down force more grip? As you said, maybe in the dry, definitely not in wet and snow. 30 years ago, my AWD Subaru with bicycle tires could drive in 10 inches of snow that made every 4x4 and car get stuck. Because the small tires just cut through the snow to the pavement. It's always about balance of what you need/want. And the tire rim size to tire size is probably the most important. A wide tire on a narrow rim will ruin everything you thought you would get. And stock will eat you alive. Good video. Enjoyed.
I think many people come at this from the other direction. By that I mean many people start by looking for a new set of wheels, often for cosmetic reasons, which, in many cases, will be wider than the stock wheels. It’s then a question of deciding whether the stock tyres will fit, without too much stretch, or whether wider, but lower profile tyres will be required.
Thank you :) I'm trying my best, these videos are super expensive to make so I sadly can't get out 3 a week like some channels, but I'm trying to be more frequent!
Great video. From the way I see it I don't see a reason why someone should "upgrade" to wider tyres. I am sure the manufacturer does his tests nowdays and fits the most appropriate tyres to the vehicle. Having performance and efficiency in mind.
Thing is some people don't want "efficiency", they want maximum grip. Which is why people modify their cars, because they don't care about MPG, they want speed.
I do enjoy informative videos like yours. But may I ask what is the HP on the BMW on your test? You mentioned that more HP like the M3 could benefit more with wider tires.
This is one of the best and most comprehensive tire videos ever. Have you considered doing a video testing different tire widths on the same size rim? An 8.5" wheel can work with anywhere from a 225 to a 275 - how does the stretch or lack of stretch effect the front and rear end of the car? My 335i came staggered from the factory, and front tires were stretched a little whereas the back were much more square to the rim. Was always curious about this topic and there isnt much information out about it
@@tyrereviews HA! I am current running pilot sport AS3+ 225/45-18 on 18x8.5 - no issues so far (but i dont track the car) - its listed as a option in many of the setups here - support.apexraceparts.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002945034-F3x-3-4-Series-Wheel-Tire-Fitment-Guide LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT VIDEO!
Great job as always, you deserve much more than 20k subs! Looking forward to seeing the new chapters of this :p Could you test front wheel cars as well ?
Great test sceintifically performed, excellent. Thanks TR and GY. A few thoughts to add. Temperature This test was made what looks like in sunny warm conditions. So if you live in such conditions or drive on track, wider tyres are usually a good thing. People living in Florida, California, Spain, southern Italy etc. However if you live in colder and/or rainy climates driving on the street, and considering that most tyres do grip better with some heat in them (common knowledge among us tyrenerds), then a relatively narrower (stock width) tyre could give you more temperature on the few occasions where it is safe to exploit the performance. So perhaps evening out the outright grip advantages in optimal conditions of a extra wide tyre. Weight Also a narrower tyre+rim usually is lighter (can be several kg), which can help performance on less then perfect roads. Cost For a given budget, wider tyres and the necessary rims are quite a cost, and if you're not already using the best tyres on the market, it's probably more cost effective to invest in those first. Just a few additional points to consider...
I watched this after change my setup tires. I was driving on 205/45R17 & 225/45R17 in my 170HP Toyota MR2. Changed for 195/50R15 & 205/50R16 same semi slicks like R17 and what I noticed was better turn in (car is more oversteery) but didn't noticed lack of grip vs R17. Definetily that low power car want accelerate now, before it was really hard for him.
Gave a thumbs, but this wasn't the video we wanted :( slow car wrong tyres. Probably would have been better doing a comparison of say 205/215 & 225 that all fit on a standard 7.5 rim on a car without staggard fitment as many FF and 4 wheel drive cars are. But as usual a well made video with goid format and information
I don't disagree, the first draft of the test was using an M4, but we couldn't get the wheels. This was meant to be using a 340i / 335i but there was a last minute car problem and with the track time booked way in advance, we made do with what we had. IT does mean I can now do it again with both a powerful car like the M4, and as you've requested, with something FWD!
All we want is a Golf R, GTI or Focus RS one fast front wheel and one fast all wheel drive with 4 of the same tyres pitting the PS4S/PS4 Vs what are prob's going to be the Stock S001 and a cheap tyre :)
I changed from 225 square to a 245 square for my e90 328. Love the neutral balance and additional front grip and control. The cons is losing some of the turn in crispness.
went from 215/60/r16 to 245/40/r18 square, on my 99 Lexus GS. Night and day! Car feels nimble, and even a little more peppy. Handling is better, though wet roads are a little worse than stock.
@@tyrereviews yeah m4 whould be coo. i think it's hard for you to see mutch gains from this car becaus bmw allredy has decent tires on there and it don't have the power to realy use that extra grip. the extra grip is just more energy lost.
I was wondering how you manage to pull a 12 mins video for a grip test because usually this is done by skip pad and few break test and then compare the result be done with it. Then you go the long way... 😁 And I just realized it sucks pretty hard if you get this BMW a set of directional tire (usually high performance tires are directional). The direction of the tire prevent you switch left to right, and the different size in front prohibit you switch back to front. Wow...🤔
I seems that you guys have read my mind... I was just thinking about upsizing my nissan 350z 225 front 245 rear to a wider 255 front 275 rear... i think i'm gona do it. Thank you very much for this incredible video like always.
I ran a few setups on my 350z, in the end I went with 245 fronts on 18 inch and 275 rear 19 inch. the nismo 350z uses an 18 to 19 inch stagger too so you should be good with that, I had full nismo v2
I ended up getting the Hankook s1 evo 2 K117 for the bang for buck ratio... I'm really happy whith the setup. 255 40 r18 in the front and 275 40 r18 in the back ... the wheels are completly flush with the fenders and the car grips very well... the cars dynamics remain the same as far as i can test it in public roads I would go whith a R 19 rim but the confort would suffer to much in B roads i think.
Thorough. I have a 7 series with this set up but briefly ran 10mm wider on the front causing unpleasant tramlining and camber reactions. On new flat sections of road like your test track is was a joy, but in the real world of Broken Britain and trucks doing the work of railways it's more comfortable in stock tyres. Wider rear tyres are madness in wet corners as you proved.
I run 255 square in the summer and 225 square in the winter on my BMW. I like the more neutral handling of a square setup with slightly more toe-out alignment than stock, I rotate them mid-season as well for even wear.
Just drive with 225 tires. They're by far the cheapest and if you want to overdrive them, you need at least 300hp. Especially on a RWD or AWD car. My dad has Asymmetric 6 on his AWD 320d. That car never slips even if you drive like a monkey on purpose. Makes no sense to put 255 tires on a car that doesn't have at least 400hp.
Disable (really, not just "sport mode") electronic stuff, modern cars, which have a lot of torque (400Nm for a 320d) , never send all the torque on rear because tires can't handle it. With electronic enabled, even with 125 tires, car will never slip 😅
Wish I had clicked on the video earlier; I saw the tumbnail and it looked too much like a video game! Thanks for the testing & results, it really helps!
But the vast the majority of people aren't driving around in 320+bhp cars so the results on a 320d are more relevant to more people. I'd be interested to see the test repeated on a FWD car too, since the handling characteristics are very different.
This is a great video which demonstrate the manufacture choice on size of tyres in a visible/comparable way. manufacture settings are always the most balanced to suit a wide range of applications , temperature rate etc. taking from the video you know what you can optimize for your own need. thumb up
This was exactly the video I needed. Thank you. I was contemplating on downsizing both wheel diameter and width. I'll make a more informed decision now.
There's a lot of good sense in this video. Tire size and compound are very important for laptimes. Often laptime geeks will praise that a car's lap time is the only thing that matters, but for what? Say a Mustang GT350r or a Z06 have like 305 295 section fronts with super aggressive rubber beating a Porsche on modest Pzeros, harder rubber, and smaller tires. Fact is, these are all road cars, and we need them to work at road driving temperature and conditions. But again, the average internet keyboard warrior has no knowledge about all this stuff.
I have Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 tires on my car, 255/17 front and 275/17 rear. They are 15 years old, and still work well on this seldom-driven car. But it sure can use a set of new tires for safety's sake, so I hope to do this soon.
Just found this video, super awesome info great stuff! Would love to see this video redone with a mustang gt and seeing the stock 255 275 compare to a 275 all around and finally a 305 in the rear! I know a lot of mustang guys would love this info
As always, a brilliant demonstration of the differences between tyres and whereas size matters. I asked myself that very question last week before ordering a set of GY AS3. I drive an E92 330i (272 hp) on 18" wheels (M3 model). I was running 225 square and was quite happy with that on GY AS2. I decided to mount stock 255 rear 225 front, but I now realise with your video there's no much gain from 225 square, apart from braking distance (marginally) :-/. Maybe I should have stuck to 225 square and saved myself almost 150 euros where I live (Spain). 99% of my driving is in dry conditions. The only benefit I see right off the bat when going stock is no insurance and MOT hassle :-). Oh and 255s at the rear look more muscular than 225s for what it's worth. More driving needed to make a better idea.
Tread carefully, this is a tiresome subject. You seem to have a good grip on the situation. Under pressure you have gone around the details well, not stopping short on explanation, it's easy to get the drift of what you're saying. You have really good traction with the audience. Would be nice to know wear to buy the tyres from. You seem to think laterally and are well aligned to the subject. May anyone feel free to add some more tiresome puns.
To celebrate this video, we're giving away a set of the excellent Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 tyres, including fitting! All you need to do is subscribe and follow this link - www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/Win-a-set-of-Goodyear-Eagle-F1-Asymmetric-3-Tyres.htm
I have a proposal for you: a non-runflat similar test on xDrive BMW (3er, 5er). It seems that not only me, but others also, have a problem with the ESC(ESP) setup for the xDrive, that it's a bit too sensitive, because I guess they only consider the runflat tyres. When I activate the DSC, I'm not having any problems
Nice one! Already sub’d
@Tyre Reviews giving away set of tyres sounds great but what about with your international viewers where fitting is pretty much impossible, you lads not gonna send the tyres to overseas isn't it?
try 155/70/R19 tiresize.com/tires/Bridgestone/Ecopia-EP600-155-70R19.htm
pls try the rest tiresize.com/tiresizes/155-70R19.htm
Tyre Reviews Goodyear Eagle F1 Asymmetric 3 do not have 215/40/17...that spec only sold for Directional 5.
You guys are underrated. Seriously. This video about the effects of tire width is gold.
Really appreciated :)
totally agree :)
+1 to that
TOTALLY AGREE!
Gives you knowledge on how to fidle with the cars handling via tires even without touching the suspension and etc. Great video
I thought he was going to have all the wheels on at the same time like the thumbnail suggested. Needless to say I'm leaving this video disappointed.
You know that there's no way that would ever actually work right? IT would vibrate itself to pieces before you got past 10 mph!
Then why do you put it in the thumbnail of the video? Isn't that lame?
You're lame
Tyre Reviews prove it, it would make for an entertaining video!
@@tyrereviews obvious sarcasm
As a 15 year tire professional, BIG THANK YOU for your honest and thorough testing information.
Don’t know if you did. maybe next time think about putting tyres on and not telling driver what tyres are on, this might eliminate subconscious bias or hesitation.
We run blind for full tests, but for this test there was no bias worry
1:56 "so what setup u rockin?"
" Got myself some 790/35 R19"
I would like to see that.
Hahahaha Gold, made my day!!
What you driving a mini steam roller? 😆
790/ *12* R19" not a *35*
Craig Ferguson good catch
Super underrated channel. This kind of analytical testing is exactly what I'm looking for.
Thanks, glad you enjoy it!
I would be very keen to see this test conducted with a performance FWD vehicle such as a hot hatch. It seems that in dry conditions, increasing the front tyre size slightly for a FWD vehicle would be a universal good, providing better braking and handling while also allowing more contact for the drive wheels.
I really enjoy the scientific approach of this channel and I've been consuming a lot of these longer studies since I've found it. Well done.
The front tires in a fwd or awd car are taxed differently and make a different contact patch than in a rwd car. You can see the difference in skid pad tests and it always comes down to the tire width.
@@sussolus not tire brand or model. Because you can have the best tire in the world but if its not the right size well thats worse than any bad tire in the right size
Such a useful video for anyone who wants to better understand tire dynamics. Thank you!
We reached very similar conclusions while running a pair of Spec Boxster cars in Time Trials over many years. In the dry on fairly technical tracks with a lot of cornering and lateral G forces, the 255 square had the edge in times with both cars. On a long Super Speedway with fewer corners and long high speed straights, the 225/255 stagger was a bit quicker with higher speeds at the end of the straights. On a very wet track day with a lot of standing water the 225 square managed to shed water, avoid hydroplane, and make better contact with the track surface as we put down comparative laps.
Fantastic video! Thank you! The only thing I'd like to see now would be 8", 8.5", 9", 9.5" wheels with a 255 width tyre to see how it goes with sidewall stretch
I'll add it to the list!
I agree with Brad....many people don't consider the effect different wheel widths have on choosing a tire width. I have always gone by the rule that the tread width on the ground should be no greater than the wheel width or very slightly less which is called a stretched setup. Once the tire gets wider tread width than the wheel width it will start lifting up the edge and squirming around reducing steering precision and turn in for tracking or autocross. Looking forward to a future video about this.
What I find interesting is what BMW have done with various stock M cars lately. I have an F13 M6 hence my interest in this. It runs 9.5" and 10.5" wheels with 265 and 295 tyres. The F10 M5 has the same tyres but on 9" and 10" wheels. But where it gets more interesting to me is the F8x M3/M4 have 9" and 10" wheels but either 255 and 275 tyres on the 18" and 19" options, but then 265 and 285 on the optional 20" wheels which are still 9" and 10". Then you have the new F90 M5 with the same wheel widths as the M6 at 9.5" and 10.5" but they run 275 and 285 tyres. Surely they could have used a 10" rear with 285 tyres but they decided not to. I suspect they are tuning the handling characteristics and comfort by doing this, but the differences must be slight and will really only be noticed by expert drivers.
"but the differences must be slight and will really only be noticed by expert drivers" I feel like this will be the overriding findings from the test, but I'm still happy to try :)
I agree the differences will be slight, I think I'm mainly interested because of what BMW have done in the last 5 years with their M cars and some of the different widths they've done. I didn't mention the M2 but that has 245 and 265 tyres but with the same 9" and 10" wheel widths that the M3, M4 and F10 M5 have.
2 years later and this is JUST the video I needed.. so much love for this channel!!
You are so welcome!
10:50
Now thats a bad example of screwing bolts on.
I am mounting 15 000 Tires a year and i would ruin many bolts if i dont start turning them by hand first.
"Doesn't matter if it's cross threaded or torqued to spec, tight is tight!"
Make sense;)
Yea that was painful to watch
I did the same mistake in the past. I ruined 1 wheel hub that way.
People can complain about the thumbnail and that’s why I initially clicked it, but I’m just glad you guys did the comparison under practical conditions!
Plus the results I imagine would be the same even if a setup like in the thumbnail was actually feasible.
Thanks as always for your thorough testing and informative content 🙏
Underrated channel. Amazing production value, super informative. Keep it up!
Thank you so much :)
I know I'm coming late to the party, but everything you said is spot on. I drove a Trans am and went from a 225 50 16 and moved to a 255 50 16 and it made a huge improvement on dry. When driving on wet roads especially where the water might puddle on the edges of the road. Having one wheel hit the water while the other was maintaining traction produced interesting results for me. I would have to have a very firm grip on the wheel or the car would try to rip the steering wheel from my hands and hydroplane or steer itself. The brand of tire and the compound makes a noticeable difference also. When water is pooled on the road it's best to drive like an old woman, and stay alert, especially if you have the ability to put some power down. Just my experience over the years. You'll notice more if you drive with a set of tires for a few months, and then switch to a different tire compound and width. Good presentation.
255 squared seemes the best imo since you have the second best track time But then you also get to rotate all four tires.
Impressive how you could remember all that while driving
He do quick run 🏃♀️ every morning
I personally like square setups for their ability to be rotated around the vehicle, for neutral to oversteer capacity and for initial cost.
I agree, I prefered the balance on square, probably not the safest on the road though
Plus you can rotate and keep them longer 🤘🏼
@@tyrereviews Even with only 180bhp??
gti owner?
always keep the best tread on the rear axle to stop car rotation in loss of traction conditions! (i.e. tyre rotation is not a good thing, especially on FWD)
Would be cool to see a similar test done on a FWD car. Keep up the awesome vids.
There's good video on this topic by Andrew White, the guru of offroading. The video is titled "TIRES. FAT OR SKINNY for Overland Touring?" at ruclips.net/video/9h3T_QicRqg/видео.html
Someone's comment on Andrew's video had some helpful tips:
Yvonne Wood
says:
I am lucky to have travelled in remote parts of Kenya and am good friends with a safari guide. His opinion was wide tyres in sand tends to float more than a narrow one (affecting stability adversely), but because it builds more of a 'wall' in front of the tyre, drag is increased quite dramatically. With a lower powered vehicle, it can be to such an extent that the vehicle may be unable to overcome the increased drag and become stuck. It is all down to tyre physics. A tyre when deflated has a much longer foot print, not much wider at all. Therefore, a wider tyre may not be very good on a lower powered vehicle. I have a Land Rover Series III and I have a 5.50" x 16" wheel with 7.50 R16 tyres for this reason. If it had more than 69bhp, I may look at a 235/85 R16 on 1-Ton 6.50" x 16 wheels, but it doesn't.
You run all 4 tyres the same size, the max you can fit in the front determines the size for the rear axle. In a reasonable way, if you got 100hp you don't need to fit in 255s ;-)
No it wouldn't FWD sucks
Very slick. You have come on a long way! I really hope the other tyre companies are watching and taking note... this is great advertising and great consumer advice at the same time. More of this would be great.
Thanks man, appreciated
It's mind boggling how this channel isn't at 100k subs. I guess not many people find tyres as interesting as we do.
Thanks, hopefully we can grow it into a larger channel, just gotta keep making the videos :)
Exactly! Especially when Tyres are a *Critical Key Part* of your car...
Done it myself: try ANY average street car, fit if with better tyres.
A world of difference! (Honda Accord, VW Passat 2.5 & 36R, Toyota Corolla & my "oldies"); managed to make them MUCH better performing cars with above average tyres: handling, breaking, road noise, riding comfort, in the wet...
Nowadays I concentrate a LOT on tyres, hence avoiding some other mods that can be expensive and cumbersome.
And NO wider and taller is often not the answer...
On my e36 M3 (U.S.) with staggered 17s, went from 225\45 & 245\40 to 235\40 & 255\40... Helped the front end so much. Very consistent feel, neutral balance. I feel like the extra width on same rim helps prevent the sidewall from rolling under in higher corner loads. The rear didn't change much, stock clutch might complain with extra traction.
Plus that extra curb protection is handy for parallel parking.
So width helps you in strong corners and reduces oversteering ? I would appreciate your answer 🙂
After spending a small fortune on tyres today, I found this video interesting and healing 😂👌🏻
What did you get?!
Joe Achilles Main man Joe!
Excellent video, really. I was surprised at the results as I think the 255's all way round were the best all around performers. I say this even though I have converted mid power (~200 HP or Torque) sports cars to staggered configurations for years (decades). I find that I have more precision steering feel in the turns on twisty two lane mountain roads. I don't drive on a track. I went down to 205's on my Supra Turbo and my Z3s. Both had 225 rears. And I went down to 225's on my Z28, keeping the 245 rears. My Boxster came staggered with 205's up front, even though it has 255 rears. I did however like 225 all around on my T-Bird Turbo Coupe, and my 330cic. I may actually go up to 245 rears on the 330cic next summer. All those cars started out between 200-225 HP or Torque. (The z28 grew to 550 HP) The Miata is the funniest, after playing around with bigger, taller, wider tires, I went back to the original 185 14". Just not enough power there, more fun to slide around on the narrower tires, haha.
I want to come play in your garage.
Good collection
So more narrower tire more slide correct ? I would appreciate your answer 🙂
@@boranbori Yes, But... There is an ideal width for every given model. There is a long list of factors that affect your decision. The weight and power of the car, keeping the tire model/compound the same, may be the next most significant factors. I remember a friend had a front engine 67 mustang with cartoonish oversized Mickey Thompson tires and he couldn't get traction at all on the street. Plenty of power but not enough "pounds per square inch" weight on the rear tires. At another extreme I considered putting spare donuts on the rear of Miata just so I could learn how to drift. So that at the end extremes you could have a tire that is too narrow, or too wide to get the proper amount of traction. The 275s on my Z28 got plenty of traction on a hot dry day, but they slid around when it got wet or cold. One day it started snowing on my way home and after stopping for a red light it wouldn't go across an intersection, they often have a slight high point in the center to allow water runoff to the corners. To me it's a Goldilocks equation: Not too narrow, not too wide; not too short, not too tall a profile. Not too sticky, not too hard a compound; not too slick, not too many sipes. 😁
I am about to go from 245 front / 265 rear to a 265 front / 285 rear on a RWD Q50 Red Sport 400, and this was exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Very informative, thank you!
Thank you!
I never thought of the wider tires' footprint getting shorter, which makes wider tires not have a much greater contact surface.
What I remember from my physics classes in school though is that grip only depends on the friction coefficient (which depends on the materials) and the force applied (in this case, the weight on the wheels). According to that, more rubber in contact with the ground shouldn't make any difference in grip, however I also know that two important issues in tires are deformation and (as the guy in the video says) overheating, and a bigger tire suffers less from those.
I remember reading somewhere that a narrower tire sheds water better than a wider tire; you've proved that with this video. Thanks for that, and everything else :D
There is a little more to that issue. Continue reading only if you are really interested into this toppic or else you'll be bored until the end of this sentence :)
Wider tyre means more weight since you need to have more metal on your rims and more rubber on your tyres. That added weight will reduce your overall power output. Including the fact that more rubber means more friction resistance (if this is the correct term in english for that). For an optimum setup you need to consider your overall power of the car and accordingly choose the proper tyres, rims and dimensions of both.
And to top it up consider weight too. Rims do not weight the same. Usually OEM wheels are lighter then some aftermarket set of rims but that is not always true. There are brands who specialise in lightweight alloys like OZ and their Ultraleggera and many others. Also if you take two tyres, same size and you put them on a scale they will weight differently. If you put top brands in your digest along with optimal dimensions of rims and tyres you probably end up with only a few options to run with.
Also if you wish to add more performance to your steering, acceelerating and braking then consider some sport coilovers. The stiffer ride will allow you to transfer acceleration and braking power faster to the wheels since the car doesn't have to fight too much movement caused by weight transfer. That is the moment when you for example accelerate and the front goes way up high and the rear goes really deep down. Until this movement reached its limit you won't have maximum power transfer to your wheels. Last but not least: tyre pressure. Too much and you slip, too little and you'll stick to the ground like driving on glue.
To start somewhere take your existing setup of wheels and simply put them on a scale. Note the weight, take off one tyre and weight both separately and note the weights again. Then take that scale and visit some shops who are willing to allow you to weight their rims and tyres and then get yourself an overview of what is possible. For example a combo of 17" rims and wheels should be around 20kg if the rim has 8" and the tyres are 205/50. Bigger sized rimms will have less unsprung weight making them heavier thus reducing your power output. Same size rims and larger tyres means more material thus more weight. Wanna lose more weight? Skip using runflats. They are even heavier, stiffer and they are noisy too.
What is so important about wheels? It is a mass the car has to turn to start going somewhere. Rotating a mass is more power consuming then just simply pushing weight forward (i.e. the rest of the car including you in it). For that reason go cart racers jump up and down in their seats after start. They remove their body mass for a sharp moment allowing the cart have more power for a slight cut of a second. You do not need to do that in your car since your weight gain would be close to zero in comparison to the overall weight of the car :) but you can do it for fun... and crash your car seconds after as you'll be all over the pedals and such :)
As I mentioned "just pushing weight forward" then you might reconsider what you really need to carry along with you. Spare tyre? Leave it at home and gain some weight loss. Lots of crap in your trunk and other compartnents? That is weight too. Choosing a new car with or without a sunroof? Well that comfy thing is high up and has a massive ballance and weight impact on your car. You can do a lot to your car to keep it daily and make the most of it. You can also take it a step forward and going for some lightweight racing seats in the front, remove rear seats completely etc etc... but that is kinda not my thing. But it may be yours :)
Don't belive what I am writing here? Then be my guest and use Google all the way to check for yourself :) Take this as a starting point if you like and be ready to be surprised what else you can do to improve performance and still keep yourself road legal and daily usable. Cheers
John Crusader, really helpful points. Thanks
true true :-)
Excellent write-up all around! 👍
BMW E 46 compact 1.8 petrol engine. 115hp 17" wheels. I run 225 both F & R. What do you advice I go for Goodyear asy5, PS4, Conti PC6 and what combo, 225, 235 or 245 square or 225 235 or 225 245 F&R combos?
And for those who want to talk shit about an underpowered car, I don't race sport hatchs like Megan rs with 250hp I am pretty fast for everyday cars with 150hp with their 2ton boats.
I don't mind losing some power for improved comfort ride.
The 205 50s are TERRIBLE! Feels like driving on nails.
So you'd be using bigger wheels as well, so despite the unsprung mass disadvantage. Quicker times are still made with a bigger contact patch, awesome thanks for the test this was exactly what I was looking for.
I did this on my Audi I went from 225/55-16 8inch wheel to 245/40-17 on a 9inch wheel and I found wide tires hold straight line stability but dont like to turn as much as the thinner tires :) as always the quality of the rubber is massively important I find that even bald premium tires are grippier than any of the Chinese ditchfinders you can buy! Michelin is great but conti Dunlop pirelli and the like are amazing too, I highly recommend Uniroyle for UK roads though they are my favourite by far but actually running Michelin pilots right now lol
Edit - forgot to mention iv never had Goodyear's but I hear good things from people who use them so you should totally send me them :)
I dont know what the editing was like but rattling of those numbers all the time and remembering it, I give you credit.
There were many takes
On a regular car the best reason to run a bit wider tires is just the look of the car. Not quite so much on newer vehicles that come out with wider tires anyway but any older cars that run like 185-205 tires gets a nice refreshing touch with running something like 215-235 wide.
Friction is independent of tyre width. What plays in are factors like heat behavior and sidewall deformation. Here, low profile, wider tyres are better in races.
Exactly! That's most likely to have been the measured differences rather than width.
I'd like to throw in my experience of of changing tyre sizes.
I have an e46 330 (228bhp) which came with 225/45/r17 all round. the rears were eagle f1s with over 4mm and i found it quite easy to get them spinning pulling out of junctions and on wet days. this kicked in the traction control and killed all power. very annoying whilst trying to pull into a gap in traffic.
I bought new alloys which are F 235/35/r19 and R 275/30/r19. the rears are nexen with 5mm and the increase in grip is fantastic. I now have to rev aggressively high and drop the clutch hard to get the TC to kick in. before it was something always in my mind whilst pulling away.
I've had these 4 months now and summer has been very good in the south of england here so i'm yet to see what a true wet performance is like but day to day it was a great improvemnt.
The car was very oversteery with the old setup and now it feels slightly biased to understeer but its hard to notice as i don't thrash it often. i also get a bit of tram lining with the new setup.
I'd like to see a 0-60mph test with different tyre sizes in the future to see if you can get a better launch. I know I do from my experience but didn't measure. I just know i can rev 500+rpm more when dropping the clutch.
great channel and keep up the good work.
Glad you're enjoying them! I did try acceleration tests but getting consistent results proved to be very difficult in the cars we were using. Braking is like reverse acceleration I guess
"Braking is like reverse acceleration" that's actually a great analogy now i think about it. perhaps it doesn't decrease time but it certainly makes launches easier
@@ilikepienurma don't forget to realise that your sense of extra grip is not entirely down to the wider setup of tyres like you think, it's partially down to the bigger diameter wheel hence lower torque output to the ground so you will think you have more grip..
Having watched a previous video, I now run my car on one winter tyre, one all season, one summer bias all season, and one summer tyre.
It saved a lot of money, but I don't like the sense of uncertainty it's brought to my life.
I think I might go with a more conventional, square set up now.
Cheers.
:D
Given a constant vehicle weight, and equal tire pressures, the tire contact patch does not increase in size with a wider Tire. All that changes is the shape of the contact patch. A lot of people do not understand this concept.
Twobarpsi I suspect alot of the difference in this test is down to heat management too. Being more rubber on a wider tyre there is less heat to deal with than a narrow tyre. Theoretically the closer to square the contact patch the more area there is contacting the ground so that would suggest a narrower tyre.
the AREA doesn't change, not the perimeter. so it doesn't matter much if it's a square or a really stretched rectangle. they're both going to have the same area.
GraveUypo that's what I said, not sure if you're agreeing with me?
Twobarpsi with you, yes i'm agreeing, but i'm correcting Aaron.
Agreed. Also: Theoretically the surface area doesn’t matter for friction.
Excellent video. I've got an X5 with the factory 255/50/R19 wheels and tires, but I want to go up to a 285/35Z/R21. The 20's only come staggered with 315's in the back and 285's up front. I think that's way too big. This video cleared up a lot of questions I had.
There's something else I might suggest which is the shoulder of the Tyre. Some cars will handle better with a rounded shoulder because of the suspension geometry (typically light weight sports cars and classics) while others favour a square shoulder (modern cars and those that tend to be heavier.) My brother purchased and a 90s sports car and when he switched to a rounded shoulder tyre (which the guys at his local tyre shop talked him into) it really made the car come alive in corners, the car just danced beautifully afterwards whereas before it was just snappy at the limit. Vast improvement!
Good information :)
example of a round shoulder tire?
My W218 CLS350 came with 255/285 19" as standard. I'm very happy with the way car drives and behaves. Always was wondering about the different sizes. Good video.
Glad you enjoyed it :)
Great video, i was considering widening my car and suspension to fit bigger wheels, but seeing the little difference it actually makes i'll just stick to how it is right now
Mathematically, the difference is zero. But if your wheels are a bit heavier, of course you get a bit more grip
@@ashscott6068Interesting take. I think it depends if you can get the right balance of weight to width ratio. I prefer heavier wheels, it makes the car feel more grounded.
I didn't think watching a video about tyres would be interesting. Good video!!
Thank you :)
I think the biggest take-away from this is, that if you go 20% slower, you will stop 30% earlier.
100km/h on dry = 34m
80km/h on wet = 24m
Mind blown.
Braking distance correlates to speed squared, so that's pretty close
Did you ever do this same test with a more powerful car? I would love to see this with an M3/M4!
10:50 how not to bolt your wheels back on!
Yeah you do, impact gun with low setting then torque it down with torque wrench.
He meant damaging the rims ...
This man can go through an entire five minute presentation without transposing a single figure or setup while driving, more than most people can do with a script in front of them at home.
I was looking for this type of review for years. Finaly you made it.
Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it :)
I miss your reviews already!!! Keep the channel alive
Trying my best during these difficult times :)
Excellent comparison. Love your videos and thanks for your suggestion for the Goodyear F1a3 I got them and indeed running very quiet and comfortable, probably better than my previous Michelin PSS. The only downside is that it is not as connected to the road as PSS which I can certainly live with for the comfort yet still sure-footed.
Glad you're enjoying the AS3 :) You're right, they're not quite as responsive as the PSS, but they'll outperform them in the wet.
They any good bud I’m that close to purchasing the good year f1a3
Best tyre videos on RUclips by far. My kind of content!
Best, and perhaps only :)
This is the most professionally done review I've ever seen. Outstanding!
That's very kind, thank you
A great explanation of pros and cons of having a square set up and an asymmetric set up on a rear wheel drive car and why BMW fit the latter. As mentioned a more powerful rear wheel drive car would highlight rear grip advantage of wider tyres.
Didn't expect 225 to be that good in the wet - but not that surprised though. In DH skateboarding which I practice, narrower wheels tend to function better in the wet.
That sounds fun! I imagine in skateboarding the wheels have no tread so narrower is better
Yeah buddy!
I've been waiting years for someone to do a video like this. Would love to see a follow-up using an M-car.
Me too :)
I went from 245 square stock setup to a 275 square setup with lighter wheels running the Goodyear Eagles. grip seems about the same but lighter wheels seemed to make the most difference with braking and acceleration. I cut 36lbs of rotational mass.
I have 330d E46 with 280HP. And exactly same tires 225 square. I did couple weeks ago 2600km trip in two days and had few moments with dramatic weather. I have to say that I was amazed with wet handling of these tires. I had one moment when I went into really wet area from dry road in just a second. I was driving 160-220kmh before so I got used to speed. After about half of a minute I realized that I'm doing 140-160kmh on really wet road. It shocked me. Of course I immediately slowed down to 100-130kmh but these tires really do the job done. I have to add that I have fairly new tires 6-7mm. And these are cheap tires. I paid for 4 tires 17" 1000PLN, so around 270USD including taxes.
I think the reason why BMW puts narrower tires on the front of the car from the factory has to do less with performance and more with safety. Most road cars are engineered to understeer by design so that they are more manageable in situations that result in loss of traction. Understeer is far less scary than oversteer for the average driver.
Its also considered safer since you can see the direction youre going while understearing
Wider tires also wear slower. Since most power is sent to the rear wheels on that car, it makes sense to put wider tires so that tires wear more evenly.
225 Front and 255 rear will be less likely to aquaplane than having 255 all round.
Fatter front tires doesn’t always mean better handling. Look at Porsche and Ferrari an& how they achieve great dynamic steering .a narrow tire can actually turn much quicker in the right car.
This is what I have been told about my 350z have 225 out front instead of the 245 square I went with.
Probably the best informative youtube channel. Thanks for all the videos
Thanks for watching!
yeah these were roughly my thoughts when i considered getting tires for my car (Audi A5 FWD). went with 245 square, nice middle ground i thought, and has worked out quite well for me in all conditions.
Glad it worked out :)
Agree with rather spending money on a premium standard dimension tyre vs a cheap brand wider tyre. I’ve used Goodyear F1 on many cars and been very happy with it.
Thanks for your research! 👌
I have driven some 3series and 4series with 225/255 and I wasn't really happy with their understeer (in 19" it was 328i, 428i and 435i). 225/225 (18") is in fact slower, but it makes (me) more fun to drive as you feel some kind of oversteer if you like to. I loved it - it felt more neutral overall. That was even my option in a 440i, what is the best you can get beneath the M4.
So you are saying that 225/255 doesn't slide on corners more than 225/225, and you stick with 225 so you can earn some more oversteer right ? I would appreciate if you answer 🙂
@@boranbori I prefer 225/225, because there is less understeer and a more agile feeling. I think 225/255 is faster and you'll have better traction. If necessary you can't switch from rear to the front to get better tyres at the back.
I'm driving now 225/255 in the summer and 225/225 for the winter. I would prefer 225/225, but in my case I can only get 225/255 with 18 inch wheels (so called "Mischbereifung" in Germany). I never was a fan of it and I think a normal BMW works better with 225/225 or 245/245. But I really like a more agile rear.
Glad I came upon this. First Q - did you change rim sizes? Because that is really important. Wider tires can give you more area, but the weight is distributed over a wider area, so is less down force more grip? As you said, maybe in the dry, definitely not in wet and snow. 30 years ago, my AWD Subaru with bicycle tires could drive in 10 inches of snow that made every 4x4 and car get stuck. Because the small tires just cut through the snow to the pavement. It's always about balance of what you need/want. And the tire rim size to tire size is probably the most important. A wide tire on a narrow rim will ruin everything you thought you would get. And stock will eat you alive. Good video. Enjoyed.
Excellent video. Definitely a redo is on order with a better car. Thanks a lot for sharing
100% :)
I think many people come at this from the other direction. By that I mean many people start by looking for a new set of wheels, often for cosmetic reasons, which, in many cases, will be wider than the stock wheels. It’s then a question of deciding whether the stock tyres will fit, without too much stretch, or whether wider, but lower profile tyres will be required.
This channel deserves so many more subs. Keep uploading! The potential is there :) and thank you!
Thank you :) I'm trying my best, these videos are super expensive to make so I sadly can't get out 3 a week like some channels, but I'm trying to be more frequent!
The time, money and effort really shows in the end product. This is excellent and great consumer advice. Thank you!
Great video. From the way I see it I don't see a reason why someone should "upgrade" to wider tyres. I am sure the manufacturer does his tests nowdays and fits the most appropriate tyres to the vehicle. Having performance and efficiency in mind.
I'd say for the road, it's mainly just for looks
Thing is some people don't want "efficiency", they want maximum grip. Which is why people modify their cars, because they don't care about MPG, they want speed.
I do enjoy informative videos like yours. But may I ask what is the HP on the BMW on your test? You mentioned that more HP like the M3 could benefit more with wider tires.
I plan to re-do with more power
This is one of the best and most comprehensive tire videos ever. Have you considered doing a video testing different tire widths on the same size rim? An 8.5" wheel can work with anywhere from a 225 to a 275 - how does the stretch or lack of stretch effect the front and rear end of the car? My 335i came staggered from the factory, and front tires were stretched a little whereas the back were much more square to the rim. Was always curious about this topic and there isnt much information out about it
It's' on the list :) though I'm not sure I'm brave enough to stretch a 225 on a 8.5!
@@tyrereviews HA! I am current running pilot sport AS3+ 225/45-18 on 18x8.5 - no issues so far (but i dont track the car) - its listed as a option in many of the setups here - support.apexraceparts.com/hc/en-us/articles/360002945034-F3x-3-4-Series-Wheel-Tire-Fitment-Guide
LOOKING FORWARD TO THAT VIDEO!
Great job as always, you deserve much more than 20k subs! Looking forward to seeing the new chapters of this :p Could you test front wheel cars as well ?
Thank you so much :) FWD is on the list!
There’s that video about wheel/rim sizes featuring a GTI
Great test sceintifically performed, excellent. Thanks TR and GY.
A few thoughts to add.
Temperature
This test was made what looks like in sunny warm conditions. So if you live in such conditions or drive on track, wider tyres are usually a good thing. People living in Florida, California, Spain, southern Italy etc. However if you live in colder and/or rainy climates driving on the street, and considering that most tyres do grip better with some heat in them (common knowledge among us tyrenerds), then a relatively narrower (stock width) tyre could give you more temperature on the few occasions where it is safe to exploit the performance. So perhaps evening out the outright grip advantages in optimal conditions of a extra wide tyre.
Weight
Also a narrower tyre+rim usually is lighter (can be several kg), which can help performance on less then perfect roads.
Cost
For a given budget, wider tyres and the necessary rims are quite a cost, and if you're not already using the best tyres on the market, it's probably more cost effective to invest in those first.
Just a few additional points to consider...
Really high quality informative video as always!!!
Thank you!
I watched this after change my setup tires. I was driving on 205/45R17 & 225/45R17 in my 170HP Toyota MR2. Changed for 195/50R15 & 205/50R16 same semi slicks like R17 and what I noticed was better turn in (car is more oversteery) but didn't noticed lack of grip vs R17. Definetily that low power car want accelerate now, before it was really hard for him.
Gave a thumbs, but this wasn't the video we wanted :( slow car wrong tyres. Probably would have been better doing a comparison of say 205/215 & 225 that all fit on a standard 7.5 rim on a car without staggard fitment as many FF and 4 wheel drive cars are. But as usual a well made video with goid format and information
I don't disagree, the first draft of the test was using an M4, but we couldn't get the wheels. This was meant to be using a 340i / 335i but there was a last minute car problem and with the track time booked way in advance, we made do with what we had.
IT does mean I can now do it again with both a powerful car like the M4, and as you've requested, with something FWD!
All we want is a Golf R, GTI or Focus RS one fast front wheel and one fast all wheel drive with 4 of the same tyres pitting the PS4S/PS4 Vs what are prob's going to be the Stock S001 and a cheap tyre :)
Fingers crossed I'll be using a Golf R or GTI next month to finally shoot the PS4 vs PS4S vs Cup2 video, as long as the British weather is kind to us!
@Mark Filby • it’s called physics and it rules the world we live in.
I changed from 225 square to a 245 square for my e90 328. Love the neutral balance and additional front grip and control. The cons is losing some of the turn in crispness.
Glad you're enjoying them :)
I'd like to see the results with an xdrive bimmer
went from 215/60/r16 to 245/40/r18 square, on my 99 Lexus GS. Night and day! Car feels nimble, and even a little more peppy. Handling is better, though wet roads are a little worse than stock.
I upped the tires to 255 square for my Toyota 86, people are hating, I'm fast.
I'd love to see you perform the same tests except with a more powerful vehicle like the 335i :)
I'm hoping to do this with an M4 tyre vehicle soon!
@@tyrereviews yeah m4 whould be coo. i think it's hard for you to see mutch gains from this car becaus bmw allredy has decent tires on there and it don't have the power to realy use that extra grip. the extra grip is just more energy lost.
Finally a new video from Tyre Reviews! Very great comparison, good job Jonathan :)
Thank you :)
I was wondering how you manage to pull a 12 mins video for a grip test because usually this is done by skip pad and few break test and then compare the result be done with it. Then you go the long way... 😁 And I just realized it sucks pretty hard if you get this BMW a set of directional tire (usually high performance tires are directional). The direction of the tire prevent you switch left to right, and the different size in front prohibit you switch back to front. Wow...🤔
Many tyre companies have given up on directional tyres now, even the latest track day tyres are asymmetric!
I seems that you guys have read my mind... I was just thinking about upsizing my nissan 350z 225 front 245 rear to a wider 255 front 275 rear... i think i'm gona do it.
Thank you very much for this incredible video like always.
Let me know how you get on :)
I ran a few setups on my 350z, in the end I went with 245 fronts on 18 inch and 275 rear 19 inch. the nismo 350z uses an 18 to 19 inch stagger too so you should be good with that, I had full nismo v2
m 3 thanks for your information...
I ended up getting the Hankook s1 evo 2 K117 for the bang for buck ratio... I'm really happy whith the setup.
255 40 r18 in the front and 275 40 r18 in the back ... the wheels are completly flush with the fenders and the car grips very well... the cars dynamics remain the same as far as i can test it in public roads
I would go whith a R 19 rim but the confort would suffer to much in B roads i think.
I would love to see this test again in something more powerful like you said. Next time around can you please include 0-60 runs.
Thorough. I have a 7 series with this set up but briefly ran 10mm wider on the front causing unpleasant tramlining and camber reactions. On new flat sections of road like your test track is was a joy, but in the real world of Broken Britain and trucks doing the work of railways it's more comfortable in stock tyres. Wider rear tyres are madness in wet corners as you proved.
Agreed :)
And here I am, realising how daft I was to have even thought about moving from 195 to 205 for my 1.2L LPG Corsa D.
GS218 i went from 185/55/14 steelies to 205/45/16 alloys on my 1.2 ibiza. Does help on back roads and felt safer and lot less understeer.
I run 255 square in the summer and 225 square in the winter on my BMW. I like the more neutral handling of a square setup with slightly more toe-out alignment than stock, I rotate them mid-season as well for even wear.
Just drive with 225 tires. They're by far the cheapest and if you want to overdrive them, you need at least 300hp. Especially on a RWD or AWD car. My dad has Asymmetric 6 on his AWD 320d. That car never slips even if you drive like a monkey on purpose. Makes no sense to put 255 tires on a car that doesn't have at least 400hp.
320d are slow lol
Disable (really, not just "sport mode") electronic stuff, modern cars, which have a lot of torque (400Nm for a 320d) , never send all the torque on rear because tires can't handle it. With electronic enabled, even with 125 tires, car will never slip 😅
Wish I had clicked on the video earlier; I saw the tumbnail and it looked too much like a video game!
Thanks for the testing & results, it really helps!
Glad you found it useful :)
Shame this wasn’t in a 340
I know :(
But the vast the majority of people aren't driving around in 320+bhp cars so the results on a 320d are more relevant to more people. I'd be interested to see the test repeated on a FWD car too, since the handling characteristics are very different.
soundseeker63 i was thinking the same thing
I can get the Pilot Sport Cup 2's on my 328i to squeal 😆
Angry Whale medal in the post!
This is a great video which demonstrate the manufacture choice on size of tyres in a visible/comparable way. manufacture settings are always the most balanced to suit a wide range of applications , temperature rate etc. taking from the video you know what you can optimize for your own need. thumb up
Thank you :)
Very informative. Thank you!
Thank you!
This was exactly the video I needed. Thank you. I was contemplating on downsizing both wheel diameter and width. I'll make a more informed decision now.
Very informative review, keep up the good tweets
A good tweet to you too sir.
Great explanation. Simple for people that doesn't really understand about the subject 👌
Glad you enjoyed it :)
There's a lot of good sense in this video. Tire size and compound are very important for laptimes. Often laptime geeks will praise that a car's lap time is the only thing that matters, but for what? Say a Mustang GT350r or a Z06 have like 305 295 section fronts with super aggressive rubber beating a Porsche on modest Pzeros, harder rubber, and smaller tires. Fact is, these are all road cars, and we need them to work at road driving temperature and conditions. But again, the average internet keyboard warrior has no knowledge about all this stuff.
I guess it's like 0-60 times, mostly meaningless but everyone loves to quote them
Was expecting a just a little less of a difference from each tyre arrangement but, guess I was wrong! Great video anyway
Glad you enjoyed it :)
Excellent review, very interesting, cheers
Glad you enjoyed it!
I have Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 tires on my car, 255/17 front and 275/17 rear. They are 15 years old, and still work well on this seldom-driven car. But it sure can use a set of new tires for safety's sake, so I hope to do this soon.
15 year old tyres are WELL past their best, please get them changed ASAP before there's a risk of a failure.
Just found this video, super awesome info great stuff! Would love to see this video redone with a mustang gt and seeing the stock 255 275 compare to a 275 all around and finally a 305 in the rear! I know a lot of mustang guys would love this info
As always, a brilliant demonstration of the differences between tyres and whereas size matters. I asked myself that very question last week before ordering a set of GY AS3. I drive an E92 330i (272 hp) on 18" wheels (M3 model). I was running 225 square and was quite happy with that on GY AS2. I decided to mount stock 255 rear 225 front, but I now realise with your video there's no much gain from 225 square, apart from braking distance (marginally) :-/. Maybe I should have stuck to 225 square and saved myself almost 150 euros where I live (Spain). 99% of my driving is in dry conditions. The only benefit I see right off the bat when going stock is no insurance and MOT hassle :-). Oh and 255s at the rear look more muscular than 225s for what it's worth. More driving needed to make a better idea.
I think the 255 rear will give you more confidence on the public road so was a good choice :)
Tread carefully, this is a tiresome subject. You seem to have a good grip on the situation. Under pressure you have gone around the details well, not stopping short on explanation, it's easy to get the drift of what you're saying. You have really good traction with the audience. Would be nice to know wear to buy the tyres from. You seem to think laterally and are well aligned to the subject. May anyone feel free to add some more tiresome puns.
I like you.
@@tyrereviews
Keep up the good work old chap. A fan from Australia.
Thanks dude, appreciated :) Lots of exciting stuff coming this year!
wheel see about that
Getting tyred of these puns now 😉
just think about how many people would have not clicked on the vid "like i did" had you not had a click bait pic. just the facts man.
All the facts are in the video!