A personal opinion: "Stargazer" chairs may, indeed, be historically inaccurate, but when accuracy is NOT a prime consideration they DO have a saving grace: they're easy to build even if you don't have woodworking knowledge/experience, they don't require a well-equipped woodworking shop to make(it can be done with hand tools alone), and they're better for producing an "atmosphere" than a modern chair, even if it DOES have possible historical antecedents. They ALSO fold FLAT, which makes packing them into a vehicle which will be heavily loaded much LESS troublesome! An ENTIRELY modern consideration, true! My "credentials": I've been a ninth century Northman in the SCA for the last 45 years.
These chairs are shit though, uncomfortable, unstable on rough terrain and prone to break due to the large hole. Especially when you are not experienced with woodworking, you might get that wrong, had one break under me the first time i sat on one. Theyre also heavy, cumbersome to pack because they are quite large and use a lot of wood for what they are. A simple bench with 4 legs or a simple stool is easy enough for beginners. A thick board and 4 or 3 (for the stool) slanted holes, a thicker straight branch for the legs and your done. I even made a table in a similar fashion and you can use these chairs to sit on a table which you cant really with those "stargazin" chairs. It also takes way less space as you can take out the legs.
@@thrifikionor7603 They have NO support for the back, which(in my case, at least) can be a serious drawback, especially if you intend to be sitting on one for longer than, say, the time it takes to eat a meal
@@mikegrossberg8624 If you have health issues, then sure, those simple ones arent ideal, but there are easy chairs or benches with a back rest. If you are a beginner with that hobby, its rarely an issue and if you do it for any length of time, im sure you have contacts by then that can help you out with more complicated furniture. Also i doubt youre using the back rest on the Stargazer if youre eating a meal, depending on how theyre constructed. There is no excuse for the Stargazer chair. After 45years, be a good example to the newcomers. Improve yourself and burn your Stargazer chair
@@thrifikionor7603 I never made one. Wouldn't use it for eating, anyway, just for resting. The main benefit of the "stargazer" chair is its simplicity of construction
One thing to remember about the medieval Norse, they had basically NOTHING to do all winter long. The farming season is over and raiding season is during the summer when the seas are calm, so what's a viking with no major work to do for three or four months? Why woodcarving and woodworking of course! It's most likely why even mundane items like wooden combs are often elaborately carved.
And furniture triply so. Carved and/or painted. Advantage to making your own is that you can leave structure for carving, you can size it for yourself (if you have short legs like me this can be crucial for comfort), and you also know how to fix it if it gets damaged in a drunken brawl
@@ReasonAboveEverything Winter is usually a poor time of the year for hunting most game, although it is the proper time for running a trap line, I've never heard of any evidence of the vikings ice fishing but I suppose it's possible, yes feeding the livestock and other daily chores would still need to be done, and ideally all the firewood was cut before winter set in. This still leaves MUCH more free time than during sowing or harvest season.
@@Devin_Stromgren I came to say the same thing. 😎 Winter is when you carve spoons, bowls, and other complex wood items for the following year. The shavings would be saved for bedding or to help start a fire. I plan to start carving the staves and walking sticks seasoning in my garage later this winter
@@motagrad2836 And all that practice leads to skill, resulting in furniture that is more complex than the stargazer chair, but uses much less valuable wood.
The greatest historians in the world get it wrong sometimes. So it is absolutely going to happen in our hobbyist circles, where we are openly comfortable with blending reality, fantasy, and functionality. A humble *mea culpa* goes a long way. Ok, we've learned something today. And as GI Joe used to say, "Knowing is half the battle."
at least the star gazing chair is suitable and practical in an anachronistic enviroment, more that you can say about the horned helmets that was created by the costumedesigner of wagner in the late 19th century.
What if the horns curved rearward instead of out to the side and upwards? And what if the wearer greased them up before heading into battle? I dare an enemy to try to grab a hold of those! I am partial to a horned helm because my favorite D&D character wears one. One of the horns is even broken off, which seems a tacit acknowledgment of their liability. But whatever, it's in his character DNA now.
Horned helmets did exist, King Henry the 8th had one If I remember correctly. And If I also remeber, it looks horrible. That said, it's the only one I have seen so they are/were FAR from common.
@@dd11111 technically that was a tournamental helmet, just for visual presens and not for actual combat use. and yes, it looks absolutly grotescly horrendous, for me as a viking and early medeival entusiast, the horned helmet i mean is the s k horned vikinghelmet that for me as a true vikingentusiast is a huge no no, a 19th century travesty created by wagneroperas, and that has stuck in pop culture ever since.
@@marcusfridh8489 Ah, that makes sence. After all you are unlikely to be grabed by the head in a joust. I get ya. Just wanted to piont out that it had been done, though only very rarely.
@@dd11111 The other issue with horns on a helmet is that the shape of most helmets deflects the force of blows to reduce blunt force trauma to the head but a horn will instead catch the blow and thus more of the force of it will be transmitted to the head. or at least that's what I've been told. Interestingly there may be a grain of truth behind the Vikings with horned helmets myth after all as there's at least one Old Norse carving that shows what are believed to be priests of Odin wearing horned helmets. Which makes more sense really, priestly, or more generally ceremonial headgear has no requirement to be practical. Still no on the Vikings as in the actual raiders wearing them though.
While historical accuracy is grand in many situations... As a historian whose qualifications are significantly more than enthusiast... I am exceedingly glad that we don't go for complete accuracy. Fit of firsthand footwear aside, there are vanishingly few situations where the modern alternative isn't better. One very important thing to keep in mind is what the event is and what is it's purpose. Faire is for fun. It's a themed costume party. And all the better for it. Most reconstruction combative arts are also sports, not fighting systems. Modern reproduction swords (other than wall hangers) are largely leaps and bounds better than anything available at Bosworth or Crecy. How should media treat historical situations? The same way they treat contemporaneous situations. If something is presented as fiction, then take liberties as they will. The more something is presented as historical account, or an actual representation of events, the more meticulous it should be. For the majority of viewers, it won't matter that a show gave it's vikings undercuts and fantasy leather biker vests. It's fantasy. Will the lay person make false assumptions because of this misrepresentation? Most likely. But we can't even get modern event reporting to stick to the factual... Expecting a greater degree of verisimilitude from entertainment than we do from the news is a touch disingenious, no? So long as we aren't diving deep into the derp that was Victorian fanfic being passed as real History, I'll call it no slight and be ready if someone solicits a more factual account. It's an uphill battle for me, but when seeing something that is, perhaps, a bit outside of what it is presented is, I ask myself two questions. Does it matter? Will the situation he improved meaningfully by correction? Only if the answer to both is yes should I give unsolicited commentary. On the other hand, if correction is solicited, let us act like people of reason and dignity when offering it. The only shame in ignorance is it's willful maintenance.
Thank you for your input! This was a great read, especially the point about how we can't even expect our own news to be accurate, let alone to think that a person could claim to truly accurate to a period over a thousand years ago. If the misinterpretations of the lay person are inevitable, and they are, then I suppose perhaps I asked the wrong question, because perhaps educating a lay person who doesn't really care isn't and shouldn't be the goal to begin with, regardless of the medium. Cheers
@@LivingAnachronism To note, you are doing excellent work. Both in clearly presenting your material and in distinguishing it's purpose. That you both have the diligence to look for historical fact (and help others by clarifying the somewhat obnoxious lengths one must go through to filter the modern popular from the historically factual when using, that wonderful resource, the interwebs) and care about verisimilitude within context of your purpose is a credit to you and a boon to our community at large. Bravo.
Great video and interesting topic! Here's my personal opinion: As you mentioned, some of the misconceptions and pseudo historical expectations have been created by inaccurate media in the first place. These expectations are not set in stone, they can (and should, in my opinion) be corrected. When I watch a movie or TV show that is set in a historical period, I want to be able to imagine that this is what it really could have looked like. Just knowing that inaccuracies have been deliberately introduced for dramatic effect diminishes the experience for me. Of course there is more leeway in Fantasy, that is part of what makes it fun. But in my opinion, shows that are explicitly set in history, in our reality, should be as accurate as possible.
And then you find out that even long sword is not the historical term. In the day they were just called sword. And there is an article about the term long sword, that suggests that the term describes the way you hold the sword (long sword is the "normal" way and short sword is the way where you grab the blade with one hand)
Stick em with the pointy end! But seriously, that's very interesting about long or short sword being a wielding method, not a sword type, I hadn't considered that.
@@Glimmlampe1982 Now that's interesting. I'd never heard that. Shad and the ARMA differentiate between the long sword and the arming sword. I'm going to have to look that up.
I love the longer videos Kramer. The longer the better imo. Sometimes I listen to them when I'm at work. Same with shad and modern history except I've already watched all Jason's stuff. He doesn't post as often as shad and you but I find myself watching you the most.
I think that you addressed something very important here, and that is that oftentimes an experienced person's passion for historical accuracy can come off in such a way as to completely sour and dissuade a neophyte. There's an old saying (and no, I don't have a historical date for its inception * grins * ) "You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar". I also will say that not all people with an interest in the varied and evolving trappings falling under the long historical 'umbrella' of "Medieval" are, in fact, looking for 100 percent historical accuracy. Many, like me, for example, are drawn more to *fantasy medievalism* , a la Lord of the Rings, Sword of Shannara, Raymond E. Feist's Magician series, GOT, The Witcher etc... and in that context, that absolutely not-Viking "Viking" chair (maybe distressed and with some fantasy runes burned in?) would work for a *fantasy medieval camping trip* Having said all that, I really like and admire your continued willingness to readily admit *and* correct any inadvertent inaccuracies in any of your videos, as well as your openness to learn. ♥
Thank you! I as well, am in the camp of fantasy medievalism, (anachronism if you will). LOTR, Got, Witcher, Ranger's Apprentice, which is why many of my experiments are in the context of a fantasy adventurer, not medieval historical archeology. When I make a blatant error to say something is historical which isn't, I'll continue to learn and make corrections. But for the purpose of the channel, as always, we are Living Anachronism, not living history ;) cheers!
Yes for historical accuracy, as much as possible. I learned much about history, weapons, warfare, and all those things in movies in last 4-5 years, but if movie wants to be historically accurate - then you can't have horned Viking, twohanded Roman swords, or African chairs in medieval European house. Because education is good and can be fun. Just imagine seeing WW1 movie where American soldiers are using AK-47. Stupid, right?
While I certainly agree with your conclusion, I wanted to add a caveat about excavated evidence. With things made of wood it's always hard to say something did or did not exist, as a lot of luck is involved when wooden artifacts are found due to biodegradation. While something of that size would certainly have a better chance of being preserved well enough to find one recognizable that lasted until now, it's only more likely than almost 0, especially considering the climates involved. There's a reason most wooden historical artifacts found come from desert civilizations. Anyway great vid thanks for the content, can't wait to see you hit 10k.
We have a huge amount of wood artefacts surviving from the time period in question, starting from simple tools to entire ships and fragments of buildings, even entire villages that we can recreate with the reasonable level of accuracy (here in Latvia we had lake dwellings in several lakes that date to the 9th century, for example, and they have provided us with incredible amount of wooden things to study). The so-called "stargazer chairs" are not very practical or useful, if you look at the lives most people would lead at the time - a farmer at his farm will have benches where needed, or proper stools in a house, a nobleman will have his decorated chairs that we have found, which are way more comfortable and beautiful, and a warrior on a raid will have his sea chest - you do not carry unnecessary stuff with you on a sea travels even today, much less, when you are going raiding and plundering... there simply is not much use for such chairs in the environment. Today, of course, it is a different story - you just pop the two planks into the car trunk and drive to an event, where you put them together, and you have a reasonably good camping chair, that looks rustic as a bonus, which is why they are so popular. Over here, however, they have been banned in reenactment events for a long while now...
All good points. Especially for fantasy or anachronistic "reenactment", if you like the chairs, I see no reason not to use them. In Artis' case, where they are going for definitive historical reconstruction, the reasons why not to use them are equally valid. Ultimately I think it depends on what your intended purpose is and should be up to the user's discretion or the group. Thanks for the support all, cheers!
@@LivingAnachronism I agree that for the fantasy or anachronistic events, if you like those chairs, they are good, since they are easy to make and transport. Although, to be fair, they are, IMO, not that comfortable to sit on for prolonged time, even with a sheepskin for cushion... the wooden collapsible chairs that are quite popular in Western Europe these days, thanks, mostly, to the Polish merchants, is much more comfortable alternative, in my opinion.
@@neoaliphant lakes often offed very good preservation of material culture, as items often are quickly covered in mud and silt, preventing damage by animals and oxygen (unlike on the surface), so such sites are a real treasuries for archaeologists.
"You have to know what the rules are first before you can break them." People who wear jewelry over gloves don't know that this was first done by teens in the South as a form of rebellion against strict societal rules. Traditionally gloves are worn over jewelry. These days people who don't know the rules at all will put on gloves and then bracelets and rings over that and not know they're doing it wrong. This is why it's so important to go back to the source material when you're trying to figure out the rules so that you can fit in.
Though I've seen my fair share of them falling over at event's I've had really good luck with mine. I think a big part of the stability is making one with a seat to match your height and making sure it's wide enough.
It’s a great aim to be as accurate as possible, and it’s refreshing to see someone own up to their mistakes, but don’t beat yourself up and don’t let people get you down. You’ve got a quality channel here, and I’ve enjoyed your content so far. Keep up the good work man.
Afaik Shad has self-built the ShadThrone, he is a skilled woodworker and has made a lot of his house's furniture. I think he said he built the beds for his children too
He built a castle-like playhouse for his kids at his old house and at his new/current house, he assisted in building I think a 10ft tall castle gate backdrop with working door and small battlements.
I really appreciate the time and thought that went into this! I'm a newbie to the historical costuming/LARPing world and you bring up a lot of really interesting and thoughtful points and questions!
Thank you for the public correction! I play in the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronisms - pre-1800s re-creation) and Rendezvous (Mountain Man era re-creation). Different time periods (they don't quite overlap) but many things are acceptable across both venues. One of the things I love about these games is that the more we learn, the more accurate we can become. There are things for re-enactment that must be considered, even with accommodations. How much stuff do you need, how long will you be on location, how long do you have to set up and tear down, how much help will you have to do that? Many of these things become moot on a film set, unless it's got a tiny crew, because they'll do all that, whereas in an event, you have to do it. And at most of the events I go to, you are effectively living there for the duration of the event, rather than "just" acting. I think modern media understandings of "our" time periods affect what the visitors or "audience" expect rather more than the players. And my experience is, for the new player, (or even the experienced one) don't hesitate to ask. Most of us are geeks in our own way, and happy to share what we know or have discussions. :)
I do really like this topic, and as a person who is new to faires and larp, accuracy at something like those events, I think things like the stargazer is pretty passable. Especially with things like those chairs, I think you make a good point in your cloak video, it's such a simple design and common material that's its hard to imagine that nobody thought of the design at the time. It may not have caught on, like the cloth seats, but it feels like it could have been around. Very cool to see other peoples opinions on this kind of stuff, like historical accuracy vs reasonable fantasy. Great video!
I appreciate the clarification on the chairs. My "long comment": I feel like our media should indeed portray history as accurate as possible even though it may set the mood and picture into a different direction. I've been trying to think of examples of this happening in our past and the only thing I can come up with would be a movie series like Jurassic Park/World. Every film they seemed to try to make the dinos more realistic according to latest theories on how the dinos looked and acted. Even though the series of films are all under the same setting of how/why the dinos are here, the film creators weren't afraid to drastically change the appearance of the dinos to try to be more accurate. And since then, a large majority of movies/shows involving dinos have taken the same route with making the dinos more bird-like. I feel like it only takes a few years for everyone to move on with change and forget things of the past. But that only happens if the large majority of our media follows on the same path. If all movies for the next 5 years all started using historical versions of directors chairs as furniture in our media, it's my opinion that the majority of our society will come to accept it as true, and forget the props & settings that were inaccurately depicted in the past.
None of us is born knowing this stuff. It's called learning. Being humble enough to show your process of learning versus all the things that you know shows me that you are someone I'd invite to my camp anytime.
if you think about a nomadic or adventuring context, the stargazer chairs represent a lot more weight and bulk to move and carry compared to the fabric based folding chairs. those seem much more likely to be stowed on a pack wagon or in a viking style ship
Your videos are great and this one is truly appreciated. I am working to develop a new "renaissance" community in Tennessee and this type of information is very important to me and the future of my community.
Interesting to see the folding canvas chairs! In the military, a lot of People have field chairs that are just simple folding chairs with a rectangle of fabric between two frames like that. They're extremely convenient to store on a pack, and are much better than sitting on a damp log or the ground after a long March. Also, excellent to see your humility and willingness to admit when you were wrong. It's an often undervalued trait.
I really enjoy your content, and didn’t mind the rambling at all. I haven’t binged your content yet because school has been busy for me, but once I get some free time I will!
More back catalogue LOL. I run into the question of 'historic or immersive' all the time when viewing period drama costumes. Textiles have always been my major interest. Everything from neolithic cordage to Tudor court dress to Kansas homesteading quilts!!! Costume designers have a hard thankless job, and often a fairly limited budget considering what it would cost to have each piece hand sewn in period materials and using period techniques!! I often think, though, that they did little to no research when even a glance through actual period primary sources like manuscripts or portraiture, archeological finds, etc would at least get them started with the right silhouette and colors. Case in point - the mud color clothing of every recent cast member playing a serf and peasant when there are manuscripts with illustrations showing even people doing hard manual labor in the fields in yellow, green, red, russet brown....
My uncle has one of these exact chairs on his verandah that he has owned for at least 30 years, you'dnot call it a viking chair on account of it being dark tropical hardwood and covered in carvings of a fellow and a few goats or impala.
A very well rounded and honest video. In my opinion media are extremely important in starting people's interest in a certain topic, and for this reason historical settings have to be as accurate and evidence based as humanly possible. Coolness is, instead, the main focus in Fantasy.
"You need to know the rules before you break them, otherwise you're just making a mistake." Yep, basically one of the things I say all the time. One of the other ones is: "An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it." Kinda funny, that. I really feel you on the whole search thing. Search engines used to be far more effective. They changed from giving information to giving answers.
So an odd thing about set pieces that look anachronistic is that it draws attention to itself and gets people looking into it just to be able to poke fun at it. Then when they discover the thing they thought was anachronistic was for real they have a belated appriciation for your work.
Hey good vid my friend. Thank you for correcting yourself and posting it. If you take the time to learn an share your findings you are a better person for it. I find your vids very interesting an thank you.
That candle going out killed me. XD I looked from the candle to you, just as you did and we both laughed at the same time. Great connection. Love it. Also, I thought those were viking chairs as well. I see them all the time in viking camp setups. I had no idea. Thanks for the education.
I feel like it depends, we are going to use one of my favorite series as a reference here Pirates of the Caribbean. On one hand are the outfits really accurate to what sailors of the time period would wear? No, but it is the look that "feels" piratey and it isn't really going for historical either it is going for fun, and I feel like ultimately that is what needs to be asked of the piece in question. If it is touting itself as this historically accurate item then sure, get into the nitty gritty, but as the video pointed out feeling immersed into the world is also important. I mean let's also consider in Pirates, they swing from one ship's deck to another in a hail of gunfire is it accurate? No, but is it fun or is it unimmersive? That is something that really only can be answered by the viewer. I for one like things to look and feel historical even if they are not. But I do not think there is anything wrong with wanting things to be totally historical either. But if we look at something like the show The Last Kingdom there are many historical shortcomings, but for example vikings did not all wear furs. But then you lose the nice and easily understandable furs = vikings. But I don't mind it as it also helps make this a more visually interesting thing to watch.
I as well, generally aim for the "feel" of the piece rather than the historical accuracy. For me it's whatever helps create the atmosphere, and there are some historical items that don't do that. Or some historical things that don't affect my immersion, like types of stitching, or types of metal or would used to make a spoon. I have absolute respect for the people who painstakingly go for accuracy, and enjoy it when I see it. For me, it's living anachronism, not living history. Cheers, thanks for your insight!
The comment about the Stargazer chairs that they where viking in the old video confused me because I never saw them in such a context. They did look strange to me because I never really came across them. If I saw those "viking" chairs and someone told me they were historically I am not sure if I had believed them. When you were talking how really viking chairs would might have been, I thought probably just simpe wooden charis with four legs. I would put just old wooden chairs if I wanted to create an medieval athmosphere. Those camping style cloth old ones look quite plausible for that time, even if you would not have said anything about it.
I think a viking would just sit on their sea chests around the camp. Or in front of it, leaning against it, which is comfortable enough, if the ground is dry. Transporting an additional and redundant piece of camp equipment is a luxury.
There are only two times it truly matters if a piece is completely accurate... in a history lesson, or, the presenter is going for full accuracy. In the case of the former, I haven't watched the camp setup video yet (it will be the next one after this), but if you presented it as a history lesson, then after learning that it is indeed, not accurate, this video response discussing that error is GOLDEN. In the case of the latter, Only you can tell what was your goal for accuracy is. After learning all this, you may decide that the atmosphere those chairs provide is more important to your goal than accuracy, or you may not... and that also, is GOLDEN. In any case, this was the video that made me hit the subscribe button for your channel.
Thanks for your support Michael. I think it's important to know what the rules are before you break them. In this case, I wouldn't mind one of these chairs, but I think there are also other, more easily carried options.
At least you're honest about this. I'd been scoffed at all my life only to have everyone turn pale later and not one has ever said an apology after the fact after they say he y A or S is, to me, in fact, I wouldn't accept it, not because I'm arrogant or a "Karen", I'm just tired.
A good line for the “absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence” crowd is “the difficulty of finding evidence of absence means that the absence of evidence for presence of a thing is often the strongest reason to assume the absence of a that thing until evidence of presence can be produced.” Because the absence of evidence that there is a lindwurm in the next room may not itself be evidence that there is not a lindwurm, it is a very good reason to assume there is not a lindwurm until evidence of its presence can be produced.
Something that my history teacher once said stuck with me and I have heard others repeat it so it is probably an old saying. "If there is no proof of it being done means it was never documented, not it was never done." I agree with that because if you look at how simple the design is and how complex some of the things they made were, they definitely could have done that. But if I had a cheap chair like that, I would use it outside, and when it became weathered and old, it would be used as firewood. Because I could easily make a new one I might even rotate through the chairs so they only last a few years. Not to mention they are simple and lack design so the wealthy probably wouldn't want one. They cant show off.
I laughed out loud at the beginning and end of this video. Thank you for the clarification. Forget the naysayers. You are providing a service for those of us interested in this topic with humility and sincerity and we appreciate it. You obviously enjoy what you do. Keep up the great work. Off topic…book recommendations from anyone other than the obvious Tolkien? Fiction and non fiction please. Have you done a video on this? Courage and Faith.
Love your channel man, I'm hoping t o LRP soon and your channel has been great for character design and preparing and really being authentic and immersed, here's to your future videos
First question, "what are you trying to do ?" if its reinactment then you should be as documentation based as possible. In a LARP situation its more about a plausible but not 100% verifiable level of accuracy while telling a compelling story . 1- are the materials ones people in the area and with the tools of the time could have got access to and used in the way being shown 2- Can you provide a story based explanation for why this strange item is there ( olaf was working as mercenary and travel to far of Africa and saw chairs like this and showed us how to make them ) but that might not have been documented because it was of a small scale or amongst people who left few written records . 3- how important is this artifact to the overall story ( is this chair important to whats going on or just a bit of furniture ) and what function dos this particular item serve ( the AED in the corner is not there as part of the story ,its in case someone has a heart attack today during our performance ) 4- what kind of compromises do we have to make to the modern world to tell our story ( most people will not be able to understand old Norse) and the rules that come with the modern world ( yes we are using LED candles because the fire regulation at this venue dont allow any open flames ) .This is crucial in terms of weapons , fire , allergies , relative costs then and now ,fall protection, hearing protection and liability . 5- be willing to explain the real world reasons you are doing things ( the shields are made of plywood because we can afford a lot more plywood then solid wood and we wanted all the soldiers to have shields ) or ( we are using a cotton instead of linnin because we can get these things in cotton and not in linnen ) and wear possible upgrade things to ones that people actually notice are not immersive to there experience 6- for item people dont know are actually acuret have a binder with sources to show the that this actually is what people used or were described in the source material for your story ( yes hobbits drank beer ref to original work )
I was going to mention having an anachronistic binder with historical mentions to show things as historically accurate if necessary. The mystical tome of anachronism 😉
Solid. For live settings. Maybe comments in playbills? Maybe included in digital purchase of films a little chat with crew on what was historical and what was not. Moana does this really well
@@motagrad2836 A lot of Larp type events have an In game are and an out of game area or similar division for things that you need to explain "you walk for many weeks ", "you are now on a boat ", Mary has tuberculosis she would call it consumption and would have got it from living in close proximity to other people with it but she would not know that and might blame it on being cursed or gods displeasure ,
@@stefansneden1957 I was thinking you could include a donation thing for people who are vary upset by some element .SO you are upset by my poly cotton tunic, well for a donation of $80 I could get a 100% wool tunic.
Awesome video :) I have seen chairs like those used at reenactment events dedicated to the viking period on a number of occasions (but then someone in Ireland tried to sell me one as a "Celtic chair" once so I should probably have suspected something) Thank you for providing me with the information so I don't make the same mistake ;)
I've seen a couple of viking re-enactment sites sell them, but in most cases, they have a disclaimer in the description that they aren't actually correct to the viking chairs of the historical period. I suppose it's demand and supply now.
An early draft of the script for the movie Gladiator had billboards in Rome with Russel Crow’s character endorsing olive oil brands. Which is 100% historically accurate, but got cut because the producers knew 21st century audiences would think it was parody. A lot of the time, historical accuracy has to give way to people’s expectations.
I want to start this by saying that I’m primarily a TTRPG fan who likes fantasy and historical stories. I went to my first fantasy renfair last weekend. I’ve been interested in doing fantasy dress and more rustic camping for nearly a decade. This is my perspective on the idea of realism versus expectations. As an observer I am 100% more leaning towards expectation of what could have been possible. As someone who wants to dress as medieval whathaveyous I am bogged down by wanting to be accurate. That being said I’m a soldier, I will adapt my equipment to fit the mission over costume accuracy unless accurate dress is the mission. As an example I have a larp bow that I’ve added a catching strap to so I don’t have to grip the bow and potentially twist it, like how Olympic archers do today. This is for my comfort. I don’t care if longbow archers wouldn’t have done. Basically comfort and better quality over accuracy.
Fun fact the "not viking" chair is super common on construction sites, I use to keep one that I made out of old form boards when I was a concrete apprentice. But my two cents on the topic of the video is that if someone could have done something, someone likely has, the viking chair as shown here is extremely easy to make, it is literally 2 bits of wood that lock together. I am actually making one with a pad to sit on for my SCA/HEMA events because it is easier to both make and transport.
I think visual media does a really good job at exposing people to historical concepts/scenarios and aesthetics. I got interested in anachronism through tv shows, movies and video games, but then realized almost none of those that I watched portrayed historically accurate characters or events. A single tv series may have different levels of historical accuracy/appeal to appeal to a wide spectrum of people, which is cool for casuals like me😉. I think visual media is helping to create more historically savvy consumers which may increase the demand for more accuracy in products and I think the idea of accurately fleshing out history in a visual form is awesome(timetravel!). But entry level/casual stuff like "RH:princethieves/men in tights" or the "Princess Bride" is also important and it gets people through the door and down the historical rabbit hole😀.
I think something important to understand about the pre-industrial revolution mindset that is often not conveyed very well through media is the fact that physical resources were not in plenty, and so most items would have been made to economize the use of as little material, even at the expense of great amounts of labor. when making a chair, the farmer whos crops are already sown has all day, but every plank of wood from the one tree he has at his disposal at the moment is precious and must be used sparingly to get the most out of it. today, our material plenty has left the resources as less important than our time, so the things we make will often be made with more material to strengthen what would otherwise have needed more deliberation in design if that material were to be saved. that is to say, the stargazer chair does seem to use a lot more wood to maintain its integrity than the other designs shown, and until modern people understand (through media, likely) the materials vs labor relationship of the time, they'll continue expecting rough, simplistic looking and rustic designs like that instead of the "I've got just this wood, and all the time it takes wheat to grow, to make this chair" that are most accurate.
Excellently stated. That ratio of work hours to materials is something we can easily forget. Especially when if something looks "rustic" we assume easier to make. And in the case of the stargazer it probably is, but that is an excellent point that the other folding chairs require much less material, even if they have more work time. And the larger box chairs have the dual purpose of being storage, which perhaps makes the extra material cost worth the size of the build. Again, you've stated this ratio better than I could have. Cheers.
@@LivingAnachronism thank you kindly, and keep doing what you do. it's helpful to explore the gaps in archeological knowledge with experiments on what might have or have not been, and you provide an entertaining take on that, and we appreciate you.
I feel that historical accuracy versus loose interpretation is about a 75/25 ratio in film, but in Ren Fair and LARP it is nowhere near as important as creating an atmosphere. It is also true that fantasy film and TV only require a little historical accuracy but a lot of atmosphere to carry the story along. We have all seen the Errol Flynn version of the film "Robin Hood" with its Hollywood sets and costuming version of 13th century England. It created the feel of the time but went pretty light on the historical accuracy. This was exactly what the audience wanted in the middle of the 20th century in their entertainment and Hollywood served it up gladly. The same was true for the westerns I grew up watching in the 50s and 60s. There was an emphasis on entertainment and not historicity. That's my 2 cents on the subject!
I can understand where the error came from. One of the general rules of researching is not to go seeking a predetermined answer. For example, if you want to know whether or not eggs are healthy, you don't search for "are eggs healthy?" or "are eggs unhealty?" because those questions seek confirmation rather than seeking information, but instead you'd search for something like "Egg health study" or "Egg health doctor reports" or something neutral. The fact that you had to actively seek out a negative take proves that normal research simply wasn't enough in this case. Well done!
It is interesting that this tension comes up regularly around my role-playing table. How much historical realism *should* be in the game? It is a tension because too much realism seems to slow gameplay down to a crawl, while too little is confusing and causes some around my table too balk. Still, entire game systems are loved by players and will boast about being "more historically accurate." As someone who runs games, I am sensitive to how much realism and correctness my players want. I am the one who judges what is appropriate in my fantasy world in the end. I wonder if the tension is the same for people in other frameworks, and how it's different.
I hombrewed my D&D game, not for historical accuracy, but to try to add to realism. But I think the balance here is to have the immersive elements be flavor mostly and not rely on game mechanics, as that is where I encountered the most game lag. Same for immersive mods or the like for games like Skyrim. I thought having to eat everyday in game would make the game more immersive and therefore more fun, but it just got really annoying.
Had one of those "viking chairs" (funny how they got that name obviusly everywhere) back in ye olden days over 20 years ago in Germany, when I was a Viking reenactor. But learned already in the year 2000 that those were most likely from the 19th century USA or something like that.
Nice video and an interesting topic. You should think about what kind of content you really want to make on your channel. This goes for any content creator here on RUclips. If you choose to stay true to the historical sources, you are pretty limited in what you put in your videos. If you just want to create an immersive feeling of a lost time and age, you can do just about whatever looks cool. After all we are in the entertainment business, and you make all the decisions. The problem with staying true to something like the "real" viking age is that we really dont know all that much about the details on how things where done back then. What we do know is that people like the vikings did take advantage of new ideas and new technology. No matter how much effort you put into the historical accuracy, you never know for sure exactly how things where done and what they used a 1000 years ago. I think the most important aspect is what you, as a creator, want to do. Keep up the good work :) - Martin
You've made videos about swords and similar LARP weapons, but I'd love to see you make a video about the spear and the quarterstaff (my own would-be LARP weapons of choice).
I love my stargazer chair. I think as you said, it depends on what you are trying to do. If it's a LARP, go with it. If it's SCA, anachronism is one of 3 words in the name. If you are trying to do living history setup, then it isn't.
I've got to admit to following your errmmm "vids" Here in Sweden in my local church is a genuine Bishops Throne, according to the guy showing me around it was from the 9'th century ( c8/900) but it think he meant it was from the 900's.its completely wood no metal in it anywhere. It was made by a Bodger on Forest Lathe, roughly a bit of plank with a string attached wound around a piece of wood the string was attached at t'other end to a springy sapling which when the plank was operated as a treadle (like an old Singer sewing machine!) would help rotate the work in one direction only. the Throne would I am assured would have had a very deep cushion on it to sit on. you could probably make one yourself :)
Id stand behind the thesis, that if you hear somebody from f.e. holywood saying: people are expecting this, so thats how we make it look like. It should be translated as: we are lazy to even try to make it look authentic. Its all about being open-minded about the aestetics of the past centuries and trying to find the value in its pure form. Look at KCD. they made it look as it should and people learned to love it. Why not make the movies the same way.
I feel historical accuracy is nice to be adhered to where possible and presented in a way where it just is and not made a big thing of as if you were actually a native of that time period and where not practical to or you need to step outside of historical accuracy I feel shad does a good way of addressing it in his bow sling that uses a nail to attached it to his back, have a character potentially address it and make a joke about it not being the next big thing and get on with it as part of the story. I feel it strikes a nice line of those who just want to watch the thing can enjoy it and might pick something up that has been subtley shown and knowledge passed onto them and those who are plot whole picking nuts can tear the movie a new one creating threads and videos where they do do deep dives into the accuracy, hopefully to find the show not too lacking but also taken in context of the show
It is intetesting to understand why they likely didn't use those star gazer chairs. Today they are easy to make, pack flat andvare a very simple design. When you understand that large flat boards are very easy to make today with modern milling but where much more difficult to make and less availible back then. To make good boards you need to cross cut the entire lenth and plane it. You can split boards but even with very straight grain wood there is a lot more work getting it flat. Modern dimensional lumber makes that chair easy. I'm not sure when pole lathes where first used but they allow straight round poles which are great for a lot of chair designs. More rustic chairs may have been made from coppiced poles. If you understand a little about what technologies they had you are more likely to pick things that are accurate even if you haven't researched that particular item. A very simple stool design is to lash together a tripod with the lashings 2/3rds of the way up. It is spread open and a triangle of canvas or other fabric with a pocket in each corner is placed on top. The end of each pole goes into one pocket. I would have a hard time believing something like this was not used. Of course the dificulty with these rustic outdoor, camping type items is that example would be unlikely to survive. Purhaps outside of the nobles, must people would just squat or sit on the ground like they do in most of the world today.
A major consideration about being period accurate: CAN YOU AFFORD IT? Even if you produce your own items, rather than purchasing, the cost of period materials, tools needed, etc, could wind up being quite a drain on one's bank account! Which is why film studios DON'T make many "historically accurate" movies, especially "low budget" ones
I have Seen similar chairs (broken wooden oars threaded through holes bored into a log or section of beam at perpendicular angles. In this way the blades of the oars form the legs seats and backs….. A chair made from broken oars DOES sound like something made from scrap in a seafaring community (Viking ) and in that thinking a chair made from a couple of pieces of scrap flanking Does also sound like something ALSO possible in that same community… It might be something so common that it was bother to be preserved for posterity.
Props at faires and other events are teaching events... I favor getting as close to accurate as possible. I have canvas stools and director chairs for seating seen and used by customers. I do have some new folding chairs 1950 styled for inside my private area. I figure people do what they can towards historically accurate so if it is historically adequate I accept it.
When building an asthetic i believe any style choices should be deliberate, such as what you do. I think if something is set in a historic setting to build the right asthetic it should be the most accurate as is practical and in budget. By setting it in history the asthetic you are attempting to build should be the setting you have already established. Well the way i see it a throne never looks out of place in a medieval dark age or fantasy setting, so there is no reason not to have the box chairs, i mean a throne is essentially box chair 2.0 and blinged out a bit. With folding camp chairs in a european setting we have Roman examples and they are really simple, people will see it and think: Wow it makes total sense they had chairs like that back then.
I might be a year late to this video, but as a larper who often walks the fine line between realism and "this just looks cool" I would not want to see the box or twine chairs you showed in the video at a campsight. because they would be tremendously cumbersome to bring, yes maybe a very rich person had the ability to bring a big bulky chair but most campers wouldn't be able to bring that, so in that sense I think the folding chairs without backs are probably the most accurate chairs for camping, for vikings I wouldn't be surprised if simple benches without backs were the prefered thing to bring on a trip since they would be easy to dissasemble and store under the benches in the ship. I would however love to see those chairs with twine seating at an inn or tavern since they're sturdy and easy to repair. Finally since this is my first comment on your channel, Thanks for making such great videos! :)
Thanks Razzberry! I agree those chairs would be really cumbersome for camping, but two he fair so are the two piece "Viking" chairs, so if it's one or the other, I'd still go the historical route. But the folding chair would be my pick if I was bringing a chair. But I've usually just sat on the ground or on a rock or log or squatted near the camp fire
Interesting... I was about to go on a rant about how sitting directly on the ground or on random logs probably was correct in the summer but not in the winter due to the risk of bladder infections... but I did some quick reading and apparantly cold surfaces causing bladder infections is a myth that's been debunked... So most likely a pelt to sit on or in rare cases having those foldable chairs were probably the standard for camping/traveling. My guess would be that if you planned to set up camp for several days/weeks you might have brought a folding chair but otherwise sitting on a pelt on the ground (most likely your sleeping pelt) were the way they sat down when not in the home.
Still make it! I'm not telling anyone to, or not to use this chair, that is up to individual discretion, or a group if you are part of one. I simply wanted to correct that I called it something that it doesn't actually seem to be ;)
While I think your point is valid that these "more historically correct" chairs look "wrong" because there are modern day equivalents, I also think that movies and series (und thus set- and costume-designers) probably play the bigger role. I'm thinking about thinks like the viking helmets with horns on them (or all the clothes they wear in the vikings series...). I think these things become "canon" because all the movies and series depict them this way. So while starting to depict them historically correct might be difficult, I feel it would ultimately lead to a better historical understanding of viewers as a whole. EDIT: I should have waited writing this comment, now I see you showing the images from the vikings series as well ^.^ anyway, Ill leave the comment as it was
at my age (55) the majority of my historical knowledge is military based and being retired from the army i tend to use historic military gear as a guide in my outings. not sure if it could help you as fat as equipment goes. been binge watching your channel the last few days as a new subscribber and very much enjoy the content. keep up the good work.
Thanks for your support Grog! I actually try to use what I know and learn about modern military loadouts and methodology and translate it into period (fantasy/medieval) context when applicable
Surely it depends on your purpose? If you're a re-enactor or living history museum staff, it needs to be accurate, no ifs, no buts. If you're a set-designer or restauranteur then you need to strike the balance to get the "theme" across without breaking joe-public's immersion. But, if you're being anachronistic for anachronism's sake (e.g.: LARPing), I see no problem with taking something that plausibly could have existed given material and tools available if it helps build the aesthetic. That being said, I could see an argument in the case of the "viking" chair that it's simplicity could be seen as doing a disservice to the ingenuity and craftsmanship of the people, place and time it purports to represent.
Good to know. Be that as it may, those chairs are the most practical, light weight and comfortable option if you don't want to lug a heap of stuff around and don't have much room in your transport to go to a larp. I have friends who do re-enactment as well who bring accurate chairs and man are they heavy and cumbersome.. I'll stick to my 2 planks, thank you very much 😉
About the question around media, I love them to be more accurate. You do make a good point about percieved accuracy, but the only way to chance that perception is by continuously using 'correct' representation until it seeps in. Most people will not find the time or inclination to do (much) research. Even I have been wrong about a lot of things because media was my primary source of information. Only talking with other people, going to musea and watching videos like these has started to change my views. I am a person who can easily change views in light of new information, so I have no problems with this, but I can imagine there's a lot of people who are more resistent to changing views who might be more vocal about these things..
I'm always a proponent that your gear should work for you, not against you. And since I am reenacting a fantasy adventuring scenario, focused on LOTR inspiration, stargazers seem completely plausible. I think to a certain degree, people learning incorrect things from media is inevitable, and the best we can do is kindly correct if someone is open to it, and keep open minds ourselves. Cheers mate!
My brother do not underestimate your expertise you are a great bullshiter👏most of us are and it's hard to argue with that.🤣 Honor to you wise brother.🙏
Thank you for the great vid. I think I'm going to set your channel next on the binge watch list. For me, if it is a representation of something historical. I like the more historically accurate. Especially in film, TV series and other Media. Big productions with obvious 'flaws' are a pet peeve. They have the opportunity to educate a broad audience. I don't think underselling or overselling, a historical time period/ peoples capability's is desirable. It feeds into our thinking 'this is what is correct for this time period'. Now if it is hobby, LARP and stuff like that: It depends on the setting. I like to go as accurate/plausible possible as possible. On any given budget ;) Unless of course the 'style' choices are deliberate. It also depends on your knowledge. Most people are willing to learn some, but to make a full study is not something everybody will want to do. Now if you are talking about a obviously fantastical, other world. Think non-earth, other dimension/reality, dream world etc. Somewhere the laws of physics and nature as we know it don't apply. Then fiddle with it to your harts content, within the 'rules/ possibility' of that place. Like in Alice in Wonderland, the Wonderland part :). Wow, I've fiddled with this text, English is not my first language :). Read the comments, fiddled more with the text. And got to this.
Watching this and my first thought is "damn, i miss my hair..." Too bad I'd look more like Gandalf than Aragorn, and I'm not old enough to pull that off. As for the channel, you said it as I was typing it. Know the rules before you break them. You're doing fine in walking the line.
You could go the middle route and just have shaggy hair like the hobbits do. That's how long my hair is. The longer hair is a lot of work and I find the long shaggy hair like the hobbits is a nice middle ground.
Could do some shoulder length or shorter hair. I assume most here are guys (woman here) long hair can be pretty tedious to care for but I find shoulder length hair is a really nice spot especially for majority of types and colors of hair. I just recently chopped mine back to right above shoulder length.
I believe the answer you're looking for is up to you for one of many reasons. 1. Media is attempting to portray either a historical accurate representation of a given period. There are plenty of movies; Outlaw King, Revenant, The Last of the Mohicans, and shows as well - that I believe attempted to hold true to historical accuracy as much as possible. And then there are plenty of fantasy-esque movies and shows that mish mash from many periods or allude to real-world influence in different cultures within the show or movie better or worse. If it supports the plot or narrative of the movie or show - it works anyway regardless of historical accuracy. Film and show audiences are fickle and if the plot or characters are crap - it doesn't matter how historically accurate it is or isn't. And on the other hand - if the plot / characters / book it was originally based off (without any woke intentional injection of real world problematic themes) is good enough - again the historical accuracy is not a high priority even if they did it great. General wide audience appeal is what they are after in even creating the movie/show in the first place. 2. For period reenactment - I believe your choice on being historically accurate in all that you do may result in you giving time in describing or education your audience in different ways as to the choice of your given items you have on / or that you have at your given campsite/store/stage. This time may or may not be available to you for each and every item you are displaying. However, you could use this chair concept as an example if you can accurately describe what you just put a video that is 19mins long into a 2min blurb during your discussion or reenactment question/answer period with perspective audiences. 3. For your enjoyment only - your items being historically accurate seem that it is a strong choice for you and is very important to at least appear to be functionally accurate in real world tests (I'm referring to your adventuring accuracy video you camped out in the cold and described your kit). I believe your choices reflect what is important to you. Whether you can describe why you chose to bring that item as opposed to a modern equivalent is very good as an example to describe the historical choices that real people needed to make to stay alive/be comfortable/be safer in an unsafe world. This video is a really good example of one such choice that can be viewed in different lights depending upon the historically accurate mindset vs the I want to experience a different than modern aspect of what could have been in historical periods other than the modern day.
I can see how an African style came to the Boyscouts through Baden Powell and Fredric Russell Burnham from their time in Africa and the scouts amalgamation of multiple native cultures. You could say moern bushcraft does this. I do believe there can be something similar as were Ren Faires of the past. Possibly an anachronism group. People will cry fake but that is the point plus it allows for those that enjoy it.
The role of visual media when portraying a historically accurate era is to be historically accurate. Perpetuating inaccuracies because they are perceived to be accurate is just compounding the problem. There isn't a need to explain in the script that it is accurate because there will be articles written about the research done to make sure it was accurate and what the findings are. If someone is interested in the accuracy, they will find the articles about it. Now, if it is a fantasy setting, I feel that suspension of disbelief comes into play. You have more freedom to choose which pieces you want to be historically accurate and which you want to be inaccurate/fantasy/historically plausible.
Bravo for having the courage to admit your mistakes. I wish more people did the same, particularly certain political leaders.
A personal opinion:
"Stargazer" chairs may, indeed, be historically inaccurate, but when accuracy is NOT a prime consideration they DO have a saving grace: they're easy to build even if you don't have woodworking knowledge/experience, they don't require a well-equipped woodworking shop to make(it can be done with hand tools alone), and they're better for producing an "atmosphere" than a modern chair, even if it DOES have possible historical antecedents.
They ALSO fold FLAT, which makes packing them into a vehicle which will be heavily loaded much LESS troublesome! An ENTIRELY modern consideration, true!
My "credentials": I've been a ninth century Northman in the SCA for the last 45 years.
Didn't see this before I commented, but absolutely agree.
These chairs are shit though, uncomfortable, unstable on rough terrain and prone to break due to the large hole. Especially when you are not experienced with woodworking, you might get that wrong, had one break under me the first time i sat on one. Theyre also heavy, cumbersome to pack because they are quite large and use a lot of wood for what they are. A simple bench with 4 legs or a simple stool is easy enough for beginners. A thick board and 4 or 3 (for the stool) slanted holes, a thicker straight branch for the legs and your done. I even made a table in a similar fashion and you can use these chairs to sit on a table which you cant really with those "stargazin" chairs. It also takes way less space as you can take out the legs.
@@thrifikionor7603 They have NO support for the back, which(in my case, at least) can be a serious drawback, especially if you intend to be sitting on one for longer than, say, the time it takes to eat a meal
@@mikegrossberg8624 If you have health issues, then sure, those simple ones arent ideal, but there are easy chairs or benches with a back rest. If you are a beginner with that hobby, its rarely an issue and if you do it for any length of time, im sure you have contacts by then that can help you out with more complicated furniture. Also i doubt youre using the back rest on the Stargazer if youre eating a meal, depending on how theyre constructed. There is no excuse for the Stargazer chair. After 45years, be a good example to the newcomers. Improve yourself and burn your Stargazer chair
@@thrifikionor7603 I never made one. Wouldn't use it for eating, anyway, just for resting.
The main benefit of the "stargazer" chair is its simplicity of construction
One thing to remember about the medieval Norse, they had basically NOTHING to do all winter long. The farming season is over and raiding season is during the summer when the seas are calm, so what's a viking with no major work to do for three or four months? Why woodcarving and woodworking of course! It's most likely why even mundane items like wooden combs are often elaborately carved.
And furniture triply so. Carved and/or painted. Advantage to making your own is that you can leave structure for carving, you can size it for yourself (if you have short legs like me this can be crucial for comfort), and you also know how to fix it if it gets damaged in a drunken brawl
Nothing to do is rather overstatement. You would still need to hunt, fish, feed your animals and warm your house.
@@ReasonAboveEverything Winter is usually a poor time of the year for hunting most game, although it is the proper time for running a trap line, I've never heard of any evidence of the vikings ice fishing but I suppose it's possible, yes feeding the livestock and other daily chores would still need to be done, and ideally all the firewood was cut before winter set in. This still leaves MUCH more free time than during sowing or harvest season.
@@Devin_Stromgren I came to say the same thing. 😎
Winter is when you carve spoons, bowls, and other complex wood items for the following year. The shavings would be saved for bedding or to help start a fire. I plan to start carving the staves and walking sticks seasoning in my garage later this winter
@@motagrad2836 And all that practice leads to skill, resulting in furniture that is more complex than the stargazer chair, but uses much less valuable wood.
The greatest historians in the world get it wrong sometimes. So it is absolutely going to happen in our hobbyist circles, where we are openly comfortable with blending reality, fantasy, and functionality. A humble *mea culpa* goes a long way. Ok, we've learned something today. And as GI Joe used to say, "Knowing is half the battle."
And most still get mad if corrected, especially in front of others.
@@neoaliphant Well isn't forewarned forearmed
at least the star gazing chair is suitable and practical in an anachronistic enviroment, more that you can say about the horned helmets that was created by the costumedesigner of wagner in the late 19th century.
What if the horns curved rearward instead of out to the side and upwards?
And what if the wearer greased them up before heading into battle? I dare an enemy to try to grab a hold of those!
I am partial to a horned helm because my favorite D&D character wears one. One of the horns is even broken off, which seems a tacit acknowledgment of their liability. But whatever, it's in his character DNA now.
Horned helmets did exist, King Henry the 8th had one If I remember correctly.
And If I also remeber, it looks horrible.
That said, it's the only one I have seen so they are/were FAR from common.
@@dd11111 technically that was a tournamental helmet, just for visual presens and not for actual combat use. and yes, it looks absolutly grotescly horrendous, for me as a viking and early medeival entusiast, the horned helmet i mean is the s k horned vikinghelmet that for me as a true vikingentusiast is a huge no no, a 19th century travesty created by wagneroperas, and that has stuck in pop culture ever since.
@@marcusfridh8489 Ah, that makes sence. After all you are unlikely to be grabed by the head in a joust. I get ya. Just wanted to piont out that it had been done, though only very rarely.
@@dd11111 The other issue with horns on a helmet is that the shape of most helmets deflects the force of blows to reduce blunt force trauma to the head but a horn will instead catch the blow and thus more of the force of it will be transmitted to the head. or at least that's what I've been told.
Interestingly there may be a grain of truth behind the Vikings with horned helmets myth after all as there's at least one Old Norse carving that shows what are believed to be priests of Odin wearing horned helmets. Which makes more sense really, priestly, or more generally ceremonial headgear has no requirement to be practical. Still no on the Vikings as in the actual raiders wearing them though.
What a lovely way to start a Saturday morning.
While historical accuracy is grand in many situations...
As a historian whose qualifications are significantly more than enthusiast... I am exceedingly glad that we don't go for complete accuracy. Fit of firsthand footwear aside, there are vanishingly few situations where the modern alternative isn't better.
One very important thing to keep in mind is what the event is and what is it's purpose. Faire is for fun. It's a themed costume party. And all the better for it. Most reconstruction combative arts are also sports, not fighting systems. Modern reproduction swords (other than wall hangers) are largely leaps and bounds better than anything available at Bosworth or Crecy.
How should media treat historical situations?
The same way they treat contemporaneous situations.
If something is presented as fiction, then take liberties as they will.
The more something is presented as historical account, or an actual representation of events, the more meticulous it should be.
For the majority of viewers, it won't matter that a show gave it's vikings undercuts and fantasy leather biker vests. It's fantasy. Will the lay person make false assumptions because of this misrepresentation? Most likely. But we can't even get modern event reporting to stick to the factual... Expecting a greater degree of verisimilitude from entertainment than we do from the news is a touch disingenious, no?
So long as we aren't diving deep into the derp that was Victorian fanfic being passed as real History, I'll call it no slight and be ready if someone solicits a more factual account.
It's an uphill battle for me, but when seeing something that is, perhaps, a bit outside of what it is presented is, I ask myself two questions.
Does it matter?
Will the situation he improved meaningfully by correction?
Only if the answer to both is yes should I give unsolicited commentary.
On the other hand, if correction is solicited, let us act like people of reason and dignity when offering it. The only shame in ignorance is it's willful maintenance.
Thank you for your input! This was a great read, especially the point about how we can't even expect our own news to be accurate, let alone to think that a person could claim to truly accurate to a period over a thousand years ago. If the misinterpretations of the lay person are inevitable, and they are, then I suppose perhaps I asked the wrong question, because perhaps educating a lay person who doesn't really care isn't and shouldn't be the goal to begin with, regardless of the medium. Cheers
@@LivingAnachronism
To note, you are doing excellent work. Both in clearly presenting your material and in distinguishing it's purpose. That you both have the diligence to look for historical fact (and help others by clarifying the somewhat obnoxious lengths one must go through to filter the modern popular from the historically factual when using, that wonderful resource, the interwebs) and care about verisimilitude within context of your purpose is a credit to you and a boon to our community at large.
Bravo.
Great video and interesting topic! Here's my personal opinion: As you mentioned, some of the misconceptions and pseudo historical expectations have been created by inaccurate media in the first place. These expectations are not set in stone, they can (and should, in my opinion) be corrected. When I watch a movie or TV show that is set in a historical period, I want to be able to imagine that this is what it really could have looked like. Just knowing that inaccuracies have been deliberately introduced for dramatic effect diminishes the experience for me. Of course there is more leeway in Fantasy, that is part of what makes it fun. But in my opinion, shows that are explicitly set in history, in our reality, should be as accurate as possible.
I had a similar issue with the long sword. I erroneously called it a broadsword for the longest time before I learned the facts.
And then you find out that even long sword is not the historical term. In the day they were just called sword.
And there is an article about the term long sword, that suggests that the term describes the way you hold the sword (long sword is the "normal" way and short sword is the way where you grab the blade with one hand)
I mean to be fair sword nomenclature is a nightmare due to nobody caring about it until the Victorian period :D
Stick em with the pointy end! But seriously, that's very interesting about long or short sword being a wielding method, not a sword type, I hadn't considered that.
@@Glimmlampe1982 Now that's interesting. I'd never heard that. Shad and the ARMA differentiate between the long sword and the arming sword. I'm going to have to look that up.
@@Wirrn That's a bit of a relief. I'm trying to be as accurate as I can in my writing without being too pedantic. It's a thin line.
I love the longer videos Kramer. The longer the better imo. Sometimes I listen to them when I'm at work. Same with shad and modern history except I've already watched all Jason's stuff. He doesn't post as often as shad and you but I find myself watching you the most.
Thank you so much!
I think that you addressed something very important here, and that is that oftentimes an experienced person's passion for historical accuracy can come off in such a way as to completely sour and dissuade a neophyte. There's an old saying (and no, I don't have a historical date for its inception * grins * ) "You attract more flies with honey than with vinegar".
I also will say that not all people with an interest in the varied and evolving trappings falling under the long historical 'umbrella' of "Medieval" are, in fact, looking for 100 percent historical accuracy. Many, like me, for example, are drawn more to *fantasy medievalism* , a la Lord of the Rings, Sword of Shannara, Raymond E. Feist's Magician series, GOT, The Witcher etc... and in that context, that absolutely not-Viking "Viking" chair (maybe distressed and with some fantasy runes burned in?) would work for a *fantasy medieval camping trip*
Having said all that, I really like and admire your continued willingness to readily admit *and* correct any inadvertent inaccuracies in any of your videos, as well as your openness to learn. ♥
Thank you! I as well, am in the camp of fantasy medievalism, (anachronism if you will). LOTR, Got, Witcher, Ranger's Apprentice, which is why many of my experiments are in the context of a fantasy adventurer, not medieval historical archeology. When I make a blatant error to say something is historical which isn't, I'll continue to learn and make corrections. But for the purpose of the channel, as always, we are Living Anachronism, not living history ;) cheers!
Yes for historical accuracy, as much as possible. I learned much about history, weapons, warfare, and all those things in movies in last 4-5 years, but if movie wants to be historically accurate - then you can't have horned Viking, twohanded Roman swords, or African chairs in medieval European house. Because education is good and can be fun.
Just imagine seeing WW1 movie where American soldiers are using AK-47. Stupid, right?
While I certainly agree with your conclusion, I wanted to add a caveat about excavated evidence. With things made of wood it's always hard to say something did or did not exist, as a lot of luck is involved when wooden artifacts are found due to biodegradation. While something of that size would certainly have a better chance of being preserved well enough to find one recognizable that lasted until now, it's only more likely than almost 0, especially considering the climates involved. There's a reason most wooden historical artifacts found come from desert civilizations. Anyway great vid thanks for the content, can't wait to see you hit 10k.
We have a huge amount of wood artefacts surviving from the time period in question, starting from simple tools to entire ships and fragments of buildings, even entire villages that we can recreate with the reasonable level of accuracy (here in Latvia we had lake dwellings in several lakes that date to the 9th century, for example, and they have provided us with incredible amount of wooden things to study). The so-called "stargazer chairs" are not very practical or useful, if you look at the lives most people would lead at the time - a farmer at his farm will have benches where needed, or proper stools in a house, a nobleman will have his decorated chairs that we have found, which are way more comfortable and beautiful, and a warrior on a raid will have his sea chest - you do not carry unnecessary stuff with you on a sea travels even today, much less, when you are going raiding and plundering... there simply is not much use for such chairs in the environment. Today, of course, it is a different story - you just pop the two planks into the car trunk and drive to an event, where you put them together, and you have a reasonably good camping chair, that looks rustic as a bonus, which is why they are so popular. Over here, however, they have been banned in reenactment events for a long while now...
All good points. Especially for fantasy or anachronistic "reenactment", if you like the chairs, I see no reason not to use them. In Artis' case, where they are going for definitive historical reconstruction, the reasons why not to use them are equally valid. Ultimately I think it depends on what your intended purpose is and should be up to the user's discretion or the group. Thanks for the support all, cheers!
@@LivingAnachronism I agree that for the fantasy or anachronistic events, if you like those chairs, they are good, since they are easy to make and transport. Although, to be fair, they are, IMO, not that comfortable to sit on for prolonged time, even with a sheepskin for cushion... the wooden collapsible chairs that are quite popular in Western Europe these days, thanks, mostly, to the Polish merchants, is much more comfortable alternative, in my opinion.
@@neoaliphant lakes often offed very good preservation of material culture, as items often are quickly covered in mud and silt, preventing damage by animals and oxygen (unlike on the surface), so such sites are a real treasuries for archaeologists.
"You have to know what the rules are first before you can break them." People who wear jewelry over gloves don't know that this was first done by teens in the South as a form of rebellion against strict societal rules. Traditionally gloves are worn over jewelry. These days people who don't know the rules at all will put on gloves and then bracelets and rings over that and not know they're doing it wrong. This is why it's so important to go back to the source material when you're trying to figure out the rules so that you can fit in.
We spent 2 entire Pennsics knocking these chairs over sideways. It takes surprisingly little force no matter how large the occupant. Good times.
Though I've seen my fair share of them falling over at event's I've had really good luck with mine. I think a big part of the stability is making one with a seat to match your height and making sure it's wide enough.
Love this.
It’s a great aim to be as accurate as possible, and it’s refreshing to see someone own up to their mistakes, but don’t beat yourself up and don’t let people get you down. You’ve got a quality channel here, and I’ve enjoyed your content so far. Keep up the good work man.
Afaik Shad has self-built the ShadThrone, he is a skilled woodworker and has made a lot of his house's furniture. I think he said he built the beds for his children too
He built a castle-like playhouse for his kids at his old house and at his new/current house, he assisted in building I think a 10ft tall castle gate backdrop with working door and small battlements.
I really appreciate the time and thought that went into this! I'm a newbie to the historical costuming/LARPing world and you bring up a lot of really interesting and thoughtful points and questions!
Thank you for the public correction! I play in the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronisms - pre-1800s re-creation) and Rendezvous (Mountain Man era re-creation). Different time periods (they don't quite overlap) but many things are acceptable across both venues. One of the things I love about these games is that the more we learn, the more accurate we can become. There are things for re-enactment that must be considered, even with accommodations. How much stuff do you need, how long will you be on location, how long do you have to set up and tear down, how much help will you have to do that? Many of these things become moot on a film set, unless it's got a tiny crew, because they'll do all that, whereas in an event, you have to do it. And at most of the events I go to, you are effectively living there for the duration of the event, rather than "just" acting. I think modern media understandings of "our" time periods affect what the visitors or "audience" expect rather more than the players. And my experience is, for the new player, (or even the experienced one) don't hesitate to ask. Most of us are geeks in our own way, and happy to share what we know or have discussions. :)
I do really like this topic, and as a person who is new to faires and larp, accuracy at something like those events, I think things like the stargazer is pretty passable. Especially with things like those chairs, I think you make a good point in your cloak video, it's such a simple design and common material that's its hard to imagine that nobody thought of the design at the time. It may not have caught on, like the cloth seats, but it feels like it could have been around. Very cool to see other peoples opinions on this kind of stuff, like historical accuracy vs reasonable fantasy. Great video!
I like how you covered this. We're always learning
I appreciate the clarification on the chairs.
My "long comment":
I feel like our media should indeed portray history as accurate as possible even though it may set the mood and picture into a different direction. I've been trying to think of examples of this happening in our past and the only thing I can come up with would be a movie series like Jurassic Park/World. Every film they seemed to try to make the dinos more realistic according to latest theories on how the dinos looked and acted. Even though the series of films are all under the same setting of how/why the dinos are here, the film creators weren't afraid to drastically change the appearance of the dinos to try to be more accurate. And since then, a large majority of movies/shows involving dinos have taken the same route with making the dinos more bird-like.
I feel like it only takes a few years for everyone to move on with change and forget things of the past. But that only happens if the large majority of our media follows on the same path. If all movies for the next 5 years all started using historical versions of directors chairs as furniture in our media, it's my opinion that the majority of our society will come to accept it as true, and forget the props & settings that were inaccurately depicted in the past.
None of us is born knowing this stuff. It's called learning. Being humble enough to show your process of learning versus all the things that you know shows me that you are someone I'd invite to my camp anytime.
You shouldn't call yourself an idiot and belittle yourself. It has an effect on confidence in the long run.
if you think about a nomadic or adventuring context, the stargazer chairs represent a lot more weight and bulk to move and carry compared to the fabric based folding chairs. those seem much more likely to be stowed on a pack wagon or in a viking style ship
Your videos are great and this one is truly appreciated. I am working to develop a new "renaissance" community in Tennessee and this type of information is very important to me and the future of my community.
Interesting to see the folding canvas chairs! In the military, a lot of People have field chairs that are just simple folding chairs with a rectangle of fabric between two frames like that. They're extremely convenient to store on a pack, and are much better than sitting on a damp log or the ground after a long March. Also, excellent to see your humility and willingness to admit when you were wrong. It's an often undervalued trait.
I really enjoy your content, and didn’t mind the rambling at all. I haven’t binged your content yet because school has been busy for me, but once I get some free time I will!
More back catalogue LOL. I run into the question of 'historic or immersive' all the time when viewing period drama costumes. Textiles have always been my major interest. Everything from neolithic cordage to Tudor court dress to Kansas homesteading quilts!!! Costume designers have a hard thankless job, and often a fairly limited budget considering what it would cost to have each piece hand sewn in period materials and using period techniques!! I often think, though, that they did little to no research when even a glance through actual period primary sources like manuscripts or portraiture, archeological finds, etc would at least get them started with the right silhouette and colors. Case in point - the mud color clothing of every recent cast member playing a serf and peasant when there are manuscripts with illustrations showing even people doing hard manual labor in the fields in yellow, green, red, russet brown....
My uncle has one of these exact chairs on his verandah that he has owned for at least 30 years, you'dnot call it a viking chair on account of it being dark tropical hardwood and covered in carvings of a fellow and a few goats or impala.
A very well rounded and honest video.
In my opinion media are extremely important in starting people's interest in a certain topic, and for this reason historical settings have to be as accurate and evidence based as humanly possible. Coolness is, instead, the main focus in Fantasy.
"You need to know the rules before you break them, otherwise you're just making a mistake."
Yep, basically one of the things I say all the time. One of the other ones is:
"An error doesn't become a mistake until you refuse to correct it."
Kinda funny, that.
I really feel you on the whole search thing. Search engines used to be far more effective. They changed from giving information to giving answers.
So an odd thing about set pieces that look anachronistic is that it draws attention to itself and gets people looking into it just to be able to poke fun at it. Then when they discover the thing they thought was anachronistic was for real they have a belated appriciation for your work.
Hey good vid my friend. Thank you for correcting yourself and posting it. If you take the time to learn an share your findings you are a better person for it. I find your vids very interesting an thank you.
Thank YOU!
@@LivingAnachronism you would love and hate to see my chainmail it is made with 6 gauge copper wire.
That candle going out killed me. XD I looked from the candle to you, just as you did and we both laughed at the same time. Great connection. Love it.
Also, I thought those were viking chairs as well. I see them all the time in viking camp setups. I had no idea. Thanks for the education.
Personally, I'd like things to be as historically accurate as possible
I feel like it depends, we are going to use one of my favorite series as a reference here Pirates of the Caribbean. On one hand are the outfits really accurate to what sailors of the time period would wear? No, but it is the look that "feels" piratey and it isn't really going for historical either it is going for fun, and I feel like ultimately that is what needs to be asked of the piece in question. If it is touting itself as this historically accurate item then sure, get into the nitty gritty, but as the video pointed out feeling immersed into the world is also important. I mean let's also consider in Pirates, they swing from one ship's deck to another in a hail of gunfire is it accurate? No, but is it fun or is it unimmersive? That is something that really only can be answered by the viewer. I for one like things to look and feel historical even if they are not. But I do not think there is anything wrong with wanting things to be totally historical either. But if we look at something like the show The Last Kingdom there are many historical shortcomings, but for example vikings did not all wear furs. But then you lose the nice and easily understandable furs = vikings. But I don't mind it as it also helps make this a more visually interesting thing to watch.
I as well, generally aim for the "feel" of the piece rather than the historical accuracy. For me it's whatever helps create the atmosphere, and there are some historical items that don't do that. Or some historical things that don't affect my immersion, like types of stitching, or types of metal or would used to make a spoon. I have absolute respect for the people who painstakingly go for accuracy, and enjoy it when I see it. For me, it's living anachronism, not living history. Cheers, thanks for your insight!
The comment about the Stargazer chairs that they where viking in the old video confused me because I never saw them in such a context. They did look strange to me because I never really came across them.
If I saw those "viking" chairs and someone told me they were historically I am not sure if I had believed them.
When you were talking how really viking chairs would might have been, I thought probably just simpe wooden charis with four legs. I would put just old wooden chairs if I wanted to create an medieval athmosphere.
Those camping style cloth old ones look quite plausible for that time, even if you would not have said anything about it.
I think a viking would just sit on their sea chests around the camp. Or in front of it, leaning against it, which is comfortable enough, if the ground is dry.
Transporting an additional and redundant piece of camp equipment is a luxury.
There are only two times it truly matters if a piece is completely accurate... in a history lesson, or, the presenter is going for full accuracy. In the case of the former, I haven't watched the camp setup video yet (it will be the next one after this), but if you presented it as a history lesson, then after learning that it is indeed, not accurate, this video response discussing that error is GOLDEN. In the case of the latter, Only you can tell what was your goal for accuracy is. After learning all this, you may decide that the atmosphere those chairs provide is more important to your goal than accuracy, or you may not... and that also, is GOLDEN. In any case, this was the video that made me hit the subscribe button for your channel.
Thanks for your support Michael. I think it's important to know what the rules are before you break them. In this case, I wouldn't mind one of these chairs, but I think there are also other, more easily carried options.
Nice intro. Before the intro. 😅😇
Thanks for inviting us to this candle side chat.
I enjoyed it a lot.👍
19:16 I thought it.
19:19 You said it.
At least you're honest about this. I'd been scoffed at all my life only to have everyone turn pale later and not one has ever said an apology after the fact after they say he y A or S is, to me, in fact, I wouldn't accept it, not because I'm arrogant or a "Karen", I'm just tired.
A good line for the “absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence” crowd is “the difficulty of finding evidence of absence means that the absence of evidence for presence of a thing is often the strongest reason to assume the absence of a that thing until evidence of presence can be produced.” Because the absence of evidence that there is a lindwurm in the next room may not itself be evidence that there is not a lindwurm, it is a very good reason to assume there is not a lindwurm until evidence of its presence can be produced.
Something that my history teacher once said stuck with me and I have heard others repeat it so it is probably an old saying. "If there is no proof of it being done means it was never documented, not it was never done." I agree with that because if you look at how simple the design is and how complex some of the things they made were, they definitely could have done that. But if I had a cheap chair like that, I would use it outside, and when it became weathered and old, it would be used as firewood. Because I could easily make a new one I might even rotate through the chairs so they only last a few years. Not to mention they are simple and lack design so the wealthy probably wouldn't want one. They cant show off.
I laughed out loud at the beginning and end of this video. Thank you for the clarification. Forget the naysayers. You are providing a service for those of us interested in this topic with humility and sincerity and we appreciate it. You obviously enjoy what you do. Keep up the great work.
Off topic…book recommendations from anyone other than the obvious Tolkien? Fiction and non fiction please. Have you done a video on this? Courage and Faith.
My favorite fantasy/medieval book series growing up was Ranger's Apprentice by John Flanagan
Love your channel man, I'm hoping t o LRP soon and your channel has been great for character design and preparing and really being authentic and immersed, here's to your future videos
Awesome to hear! Have fun!
Haven't watched your video on camping yet, but found this video interesting on it's own
First question, "what are you trying to do ?" if its reinactment then you should be as documentation based as possible.
In a LARP situation its more about a plausible but not 100% verifiable level of accuracy while telling a compelling story .
1- are the materials ones people in the area and with the tools of the time could have got access to and used in the way being shown
2- Can you provide a story based explanation for why this strange item is there ( olaf was working as mercenary and travel to far of Africa and saw chairs like this and showed us how to make them ) but that might not have been documented because it was of a small scale or amongst people who left few written records .
3- how important is this artifact to the overall story ( is this chair important to whats going on or just a bit of furniture ) and what function dos this particular item serve ( the AED in the corner is not there as part of the story ,its in case someone has a heart attack today during our performance )
4- what kind of compromises do we have to make to the modern world to tell our story ( most people will not be able to understand old Norse) and the rules that come with the modern world ( yes we are using LED candles because the fire regulation at this venue dont allow any open flames ) .This is crucial in terms of weapons , fire , allergies , relative costs then and now ,fall protection, hearing protection and liability .
5- be willing to explain the real world reasons you are doing things ( the shields are made of plywood because we can afford a lot more plywood then solid wood and we wanted all the soldiers to have shields ) or ( we are using a cotton instead of linnin because we can get these things in cotton and not in linnen ) and wear possible upgrade things to ones that people actually notice are not immersive to there experience
6- for item people dont know are actually acuret have a binder with sources to show the that this actually is what people used or were described in the source material for your story ( yes hobbits drank beer ref to original work )
I was going to mention having an anachronistic binder with historical mentions to show things as historically accurate if necessary. The mystical tome of anachronism 😉
Solid. For live settings. Maybe comments in playbills? Maybe included in digital purchase of films a little chat with crew on what was historical and what was not. Moana does this really well
@@motagrad2836 A lot of Larp type events have an In game are and an out of game area or similar division for things that you need to explain "you walk for many weeks ", "you are now on a boat ", Mary has tuberculosis she would call it consumption and would have got it from living in close proximity to other people with it but she would not know that and might blame it on being cursed or gods displeasure ,
@@stefansneden1957 I was thinking you could include a donation thing for people who are vary upset by some element .SO you are upset by my poly cotton tunic, well for a donation of $80 I could get a 100% wool tunic.
Awesome video :)
I have seen chairs like those used at reenactment events dedicated to the viking period on a number of occasions (but then someone in Ireland tried to sell me one as a "Celtic chair" once so I should probably have suspected something)
Thank you for providing me with the information so I don't make the same mistake ;)
I've seen a couple of viking re-enactment sites sell them, but in most cases, they have a disclaimer in the description that they aren't actually correct to the viking chairs of the historical period. I suppose it's demand and supply now.
@@LivingAnachronism yep, the stores will sell what sells, and not always whats right
An early draft of the script for the movie Gladiator had billboards in Rome with Russel Crow’s character endorsing olive oil brands. Which is 100% historically accurate, but got cut because the producers knew 21st century audiences would think it was parody. A lot of the time, historical accuracy has to give way to people’s expectations.
Yup! Totally African. I grew up in Benin, W. Aftica and have a beuatifully carved one that has moved with me throughout my life.
I want to start this by saying that I’m primarily a TTRPG fan who likes fantasy and historical stories. I went to my first fantasy renfair last weekend. I’ve been interested in doing fantasy dress and more rustic camping for nearly a decade. This is my perspective on the idea of realism versus expectations.
As an observer I am 100% more leaning towards expectation of what could have been possible.
As someone who wants to dress as medieval whathaveyous I am bogged down by wanting to be accurate. That being said I’m a soldier, I will adapt my equipment to fit the mission over costume accuracy unless accurate dress is the mission. As an example I have a larp bow that I’ve added a catching strap to so I don’t have to grip the bow and potentially twist it, like how Olympic archers do today. This is for my comfort. I don’t care if longbow archers wouldn’t have done. Basically comfort and better quality over accuracy.
I make these often and I always called them stargazer chairs because of the slight reclined position
11:22 I am loving that middle ages folding chair.
Fun fact the "not viking" chair is super common on construction sites, I use to keep one that I made out of old form boards when I was a concrete apprentice.
But my two cents on the topic of the video is that if someone could have done something, someone likely has, the viking chair as shown here is extremely easy to make, it is literally 2 bits of wood that lock together. I am actually making one with a pad to sit on for my SCA/HEMA events because it is easier to both make and transport.
I think visual media does a really good job at exposing people to historical concepts/scenarios and aesthetics. I got interested in anachronism through tv shows, movies and video games, but then realized almost none of those that I watched portrayed historically accurate characters or events. A single tv series may have different levels of historical accuracy/appeal to appeal to a wide spectrum of people, which is cool for casuals like me😉. I think visual media is helping to create more historically savvy consumers which may increase the demand for more accuracy in products and I think the idea of accurately fleshing out history in a visual form is awesome(timetravel!). But entry level/casual stuff like "RH:princethieves/men in tights" or the "Princess Bride" is also important and it gets people through the door and down the historical rabbit hole😀.
I think something important to understand about the pre-industrial revolution mindset that is often not conveyed very well through media is the fact that physical resources were not in plenty, and so most items would have been made to economize the use of as little material, even at the expense of great amounts of labor.
when making a chair, the farmer whos crops are already sown has all day, but every plank of wood from the one tree he has at his disposal at the moment is precious and must be used sparingly to get the most out of it. today, our material plenty has left the resources as less important than our time, so the things we make will often be made with more material to strengthen what would otherwise have needed more deliberation in design if that material were to be saved.
that is to say, the stargazer chair does seem to use a lot more wood to maintain its integrity than the other designs shown, and until modern people understand (through media, likely) the materials vs labor relationship of the time, they'll continue expecting rough, simplistic looking and rustic designs like that instead of the "I've got just this wood, and all the time it takes wheat to grow, to make this chair" that are most accurate.
Excellently stated. That ratio of work hours to materials is something we can easily forget. Especially when if something looks "rustic" we assume easier to make. And in the case of the stargazer it probably is, but that is an excellent point that the other folding chairs require much less material, even if they have more work time. And the larger box chairs have the dual purpose of being storage, which perhaps makes the extra material cost worth the size of the build. Again, you've stated this ratio better than I could have. Cheers.
@@LivingAnachronism thank you kindly, and keep doing what you do. it's helpful to explore the gaps in archeological knowledge with experiments on what might have or have not been, and you provide an entertaining take on that, and we appreciate you.
When I was an English civil war re-enactot we used to call the really militant about authenticity “stitch counters”.
I feel that historical accuracy versus loose interpretation is about a 75/25 ratio in film, but in Ren Fair and LARP it is nowhere near as important as creating an atmosphere. It is also true that fantasy film and TV only require a little historical accuracy but a lot of atmosphere to carry the story along. We have all seen the Errol Flynn version of the film "Robin Hood" with its Hollywood sets and costuming version of 13th century England. It created the feel of the time but went pretty light on the historical accuracy. This was exactly what the audience wanted in the middle of the 20th century in their entertainment and Hollywood served it up gladly. The same was true for the westerns I grew up watching in the 50s and 60s. There was an emphasis on entertainment and not historicity. That's my 2 cents on the subject!
I think what he's trying to say is, "Don't be an AHOLE about trying to help others understand they are incorrect".
I can understand where the error came from. One of the general rules of researching is not to go seeking a predetermined answer. For example, if you want to know whether or not eggs are healthy, you don't search for "are eggs healthy?" or "are eggs unhealty?" because those questions seek confirmation rather than seeking information, but instead you'd search for something like "Egg health study" or "Egg health doctor reports" or something neutral. The fact that you had to actively seek out a negative take proves that normal research simply wasn't enough in this case. Well done!
It is interesting that this tension comes up regularly around my role-playing table. How much historical realism *should* be in the game? It is a tension because too much realism seems to slow gameplay down to a crawl, while too little is confusing and causes some around my table too balk. Still, entire game systems are loved by players and will boast about being "more historically accurate." As someone who runs games, I am sensitive to how much realism and correctness my players want. I am the one who judges what is appropriate in my fantasy world in the end. I wonder if the tension is the same for people in other frameworks, and how it's different.
I hombrewed my D&D game, not for historical accuracy, but to try to add to realism. But I think the balance here is to have the immersive elements be flavor mostly and not rely on game mechanics, as that is where I encountered the most game lag. Same for immersive mods or the like for games like Skyrim. I thought having to eat everyday in game would make the game more immersive and therefore more fun, but it just got really annoying.
Had one of those "viking chairs" (funny how they got that name obviusly everywhere) back in ye olden days over 20 years ago in Germany, when I was a Viking reenactor. But learned already in the year 2000 that those were most likely from the 19th century USA or something like that.
Awesome video. I'm in a Group called the SCA (Society for creative anachronism) I love it
I want to get involved with the SCA eventually! Thanks for youre support!
Nice video and an interesting topic. You should think about what kind of content you really want to make on your channel. This goes for any content creator here on RUclips. If you choose to stay true to the historical sources, you are pretty limited in what you put in your videos. If you just want to create an immersive feeling of a lost time and age, you can do just about whatever looks cool. After all we are in the entertainment business, and you make all the decisions. The problem with staying true to something like the "real" viking age is that we really dont know all that much about the details on how things where done back then. What we do know is that people like the vikings did take advantage of new ideas and new technology. No matter how much effort you put into the historical accuracy, you never know for sure exactly how things where done and what they used a 1000 years ago. I think the most important aspect is what you, as a creator, want to do. Keep up the good work :)
- Martin
You've made videos about swords and similar LARP weapons, but I'd love to see you make a video about the spear and the quarterstaff (my own would-be LARP weapons of choice).
I love my stargazer chair. I think as you said, it depends on what you are trying to do. If it's a LARP, go with it. If it's SCA, anachronism is one of 3 words in the name. If you are trying to do living history setup, then it isn't.
I've got to admit to following your errmmm "vids" Here in Sweden in my local church is a genuine Bishops Throne, according to the guy showing me around it was from the 9'th century ( c8/900) but it think he meant it was from the 900's.its completely wood no metal in it anywhere. It was made by a Bodger on Forest Lathe, roughly a bit of plank with a string attached wound around a piece of wood the string was attached at t'other end to a springy sapling which when the plank was operated as a treadle (like an old Singer sewing machine!) would help rotate the work in one direction only. the Throne would I am assured would have had a very deep cushion on it to sit on. you could probably make one yourself :)
Respect for admitting when you say something wrong. I have always been the find a suitable log type. Ps cloak is almost done!
Id stand behind the thesis, that if you hear somebody from f.e. holywood saying: people are expecting this, so thats how we make it look like. It should be translated as: we are lazy to even try to make it look authentic.
Its all about being open-minded about the aestetics of the past centuries and trying to find the value in its pure form. Look at KCD. they made it look as it should and people learned to love it. Why not make the movies the same way.
Thank you for being honest.
I feel historical accuracy is nice to be adhered to where possible and presented in a way where it just is and not made a big thing of as if you were actually a native of that time period and where not practical to or you need to step outside of historical accuracy I feel shad does a good way of addressing it in his bow sling that uses a nail to attached it to his back, have a character potentially address it and make a joke about it not being the next big thing and get on with it as part of the story. I feel it strikes a nice line of those who just want to watch the thing can enjoy it and might pick something up that has been subtley shown and knowledge passed onto them and those who are plot whole picking nuts can tear the movie a new one creating threads and videos where they do do deep dives into the accuracy, hopefully to find the show not too lacking but also taken in context of the show
*Serious discussion*
*Dramatic ending*
"Wax went everywhere"
XD
🎩hi nice thing I found in a local antique shop, a 1/2 oz of silver. Not a bad thing to carry if you are adventuring.
It is intetesting to understand why they likely didn't use those star gazer chairs.
Today they are easy to make, pack flat andvare a very simple design.
When you understand that large flat boards are very easy to make today with modern milling but where much more difficult to make and less availible back then.
To make good boards you need to cross cut the entire lenth and plane it.
You can split boards but even with very straight grain wood there is a lot more work getting it flat.
Modern dimensional lumber makes that chair easy.
I'm not sure when pole lathes where first used but they allow straight round poles which are great for a lot of chair designs.
More rustic chairs may have been made from coppiced poles.
If you understand a little about what technologies they had you are more likely to pick things that are accurate even if you haven't researched that particular item.
A very simple stool design is to lash together a tripod with the lashings 2/3rds of the way up. It is spread open and a triangle of canvas or other fabric with a pocket in each corner is placed on top. The end of each pole goes into one pocket.
I would have a hard time believing something like this was not used.
Of course the dificulty with these rustic outdoor, camping type items is that example would be unlikely to survive.
Purhaps outside of the nobles, must people would just squat or sit on the ground like they do in most of the world today.
A major consideration about being period accurate:
CAN YOU AFFORD IT?
Even if you produce your own items, rather than purchasing, the cost of period materials, tools needed, etc, could wind up being quite a drain on one's bank account!
Which is why film studios DON'T make many "historically accurate" movies, especially "low budget" ones
I have Seen similar chairs (broken wooden oars threaded through holes bored into a log or section of beam at perpendicular angles. In this way the blades of the oars form the legs seats and backs…..
A chair made from broken oars DOES sound like something made from scrap in a seafaring community (Viking ) and in that thinking a chair made from a couple of pieces of scrap flanking Does also sound like something ALSO possible in that same community…
It might be something so common that it was bother to be preserved for posterity.
Props at faires and other events are teaching events... I favor getting as close to accurate as possible. I have canvas stools and director chairs for seating seen and used by customers. I do have some new folding chairs 1950 styled for inside my private area. I figure people do what they can towards historically accurate so if it is historically adequate I accept it.
A period candle snuffer would be handy. Nice little DIY project?
When building an asthetic i believe any style choices should be deliberate, such as what you do. I think if something is set in a historic setting to build the right asthetic it should be the most accurate as is practical and in budget. By setting it in history the asthetic you are attempting to build should be the setting you have already established. Well the way i see it a throne never looks out of place in a medieval dark age or fantasy setting, so there is no reason not to have the box chairs, i mean a throne is essentially box chair 2.0 and blinged out a bit. With folding camp chairs in a european setting we have Roman examples and they are really simple, people will see it and think: Wow it makes total sense they had chairs like that back then.
Reminds me of the Tiffany Problem.
Always worthy of our 👍
How to do leg wraps video?
Aye Saturday upload!
I might be a year late to this video, but as a larper who often walks the fine line between realism and "this just looks cool" I would not want to see the box or twine chairs you showed in the video at a campsight. because they would be tremendously cumbersome to bring, yes maybe a very rich person had the ability to bring a big bulky chair but most campers wouldn't be able to bring that, so in that sense I think the folding chairs without backs are probably the most accurate chairs for camping, for vikings I wouldn't be surprised if simple benches without backs were the prefered thing to bring on a trip since they would be easy to dissasemble and store under the benches in the ship.
I would however love to see those chairs with twine seating at an inn or tavern since they're sturdy and easy to repair.
Finally since this is my first comment on your channel, Thanks for making such great videos! :)
Thanks Razzberry! I agree those chairs would be really cumbersome for camping, but two he fair so are the two piece "Viking" chairs, so if it's one or the other, I'd still go the historical route. But the folding chair would be my pick if I was bringing a chair. But I've usually just sat on the ground or on a rock or log or squatted near the camp fire
Interesting... I was about to go on a rant about how sitting directly on the ground or on random logs probably was correct in the summer but not in the winter due to the risk of bladder infections... but I did some quick reading and apparantly cold surfaces causing bladder infections is a myth that's been debunked... So most likely a pelt to sit on or in rare cases having those foldable chairs were probably the standard for camping/traveling. My guess would be that if you planned to set up camp for several days/weeks you might have brought a folding chair but otherwise sitting on a pelt on the ground (most likely your sleeping pelt) were the way they sat down when not in the home.
Hey, I was just gonna make that chair.
Stop ruining my dreams.
Still make it! I'm not telling anyone to, or not to use this chair, that is up to individual discretion, or a group if you are part of one. I simply wanted to correct that I called it something that it doesn't actually seem to be ;)
While I think your point is valid that these "more historically correct" chairs look "wrong" because there are modern day equivalents, I also think that movies and series (und thus set- and costume-designers) probably play the bigger role. I'm thinking about thinks like the viking helmets with horns on them (or all the clothes they wear in the vikings series...). I think these things become "canon" because all the movies and series depict them this way. So while starting to depict them historically correct might be difficult, I feel it would ultimately lead to a better historical understanding of viewers as a whole.
EDIT: I should have waited writing this comment, now I see you showing the images from the vikings series as well ^.^ anyway, Ill leave the comment as it was
at my age (55) the majority of my historical knowledge is military based and being retired from the army i tend to use historic military gear as a guide in my outings. not sure if it could help you as fat as equipment goes. been binge watching your channel the last few days as a new subscribber and very much enjoy the content. keep up the good work.
Thanks for your support Grog! I actually try to use what I know and learn about modern military loadouts and methodology and translate it into period (fantasy/medieval) context when applicable
Isn't the stargazer chair meant to be a replica of the bog chair from the 8th century?
Surely it depends on your purpose?
If you're a re-enactor or living history museum staff, it needs to be accurate, no ifs, no buts. If you're a set-designer or restauranteur then you need to strike the balance to get the "theme" across without breaking joe-public's immersion. But, if you're being anachronistic for anachronism's sake (e.g.: LARPing), I see no problem with taking something that plausibly could have existed given material and tools available if it helps build the aesthetic. That being said, I could see an argument in the case of the "viking" chair that it's simplicity could be seen as doing a disservice to the ingenuity and craftsmanship of the people, place and time it purports to represent.
Good to know. Be that as it may, those chairs are the most practical, light weight and comfortable option if you don't want to lug a heap of stuff around and don't have much room in your transport to go to a larp. I have friends who do re-enactment as well who bring accurate chairs and man are they heavy and cumbersome.. I'll stick to my 2 planks, thank you very much 😉
About the question around media, I love them to be more accurate. You do make a good point about percieved accuracy, but the only way to chance that perception is by continuously using 'correct' representation until it seeps in. Most people will not find the time or inclination to do (much) research. Even I have been wrong about a lot of things because media was my primary source of information. Only talking with other people, going to musea and watching videos like these has started to change my views. I am a person who can easily change views in light of new information, so I have no problems with this, but I can imagine there's a lot of people who are more resistent to changing views who might be more vocal about these things..
I'm always a proponent that your gear should work for you, not against you. And since I am reenacting a fantasy adventuring scenario, focused on LOTR inspiration, stargazers seem completely plausible. I think to a certain degree, people learning incorrect things from media is inevitable, and the best we can do is kindly correct if someone is open to it, and keep open minds ourselves. Cheers mate!
My brother do not underestimate your expertise you are a great bullshiter👏most of us are and it's hard to argue with that.🤣
Honor to you wise brother.🙏
Thank you for the great vid. I think I'm going to set your channel next on the binge watch list.
For me, if it is a representation of something historical. I like the more historically accurate. Especially in film, TV series and other Media. Big productions with obvious 'flaws' are a pet peeve. They have the opportunity to educate a broad audience.
I don't think underselling or overselling, a historical time period/ peoples capability's is desirable.
It feeds into our thinking 'this is what is correct for this time period'.
Now if it is hobby, LARP and stuff like that: It depends on the setting.
I like to go as accurate/plausible possible as possible. On any given budget ;)
Unless of course the 'style' choices are deliberate.
It also depends on your knowledge. Most people are willing to learn some, but to make a full study is not something everybody will want to do.
Now if you are talking about a obviously fantastical, other world. Think non-earth, other dimension/reality, dream world etc.
Somewhere the laws of physics and nature as we know it don't apply. Then fiddle with it to your harts content, within the 'rules/ possibility' of that place. Like in Alice in Wonderland, the Wonderland part :).
Wow, I've fiddled with this text, English is not my first language :). Read the comments, fiddled more with the text. And got to this.
Watching this and my first thought is "damn, i miss my hair..." Too bad I'd look more like Gandalf than Aragorn, and I'm not old enough to pull that off.
As for the channel, you said it as I was typing it. Know the rules before you break them. You're doing fine in walking the line.
You could go the middle route and just have shaggy hair like the hobbits do. That's how long my hair is. The longer hair is a lot of work and I find the long shaggy hair like the hobbits is a nice middle ground.
Could do some shoulder length or shorter hair. I assume most here are guys (woman here) long hair can be pretty tedious to care for but I find shoulder length hair is a really nice spot especially for majority of types and colors of hair. I just recently chopped mine back to right above shoulder length.
A great and humble reality that no matter how educated an assumption is, it can still be wrong.
I believe the answer you're looking for is up to you for one of many reasons.
1. Media is attempting to portray either a historical accurate representation of a given period. There are plenty of movies; Outlaw King, Revenant, The Last of the Mohicans, and shows as well - that I believe attempted to hold true to historical accuracy as much as possible. And then there are plenty of fantasy-esque movies and shows that mish mash from many periods or allude to real-world influence in different cultures within the show or movie better or worse. If it supports the plot or narrative of the movie or show - it works anyway regardless of historical accuracy. Film and show audiences are fickle and if the plot or characters are crap - it doesn't matter how historically accurate it is or isn't. And on the other hand - if the plot / characters / book it was originally based off (without any woke intentional injection of real world problematic themes) is good enough - again the historical accuracy is not a high priority even if they did it great. General wide audience appeal is what they are after in even creating the movie/show in the first place.
2. For period reenactment - I believe your choice on being historically accurate in all that you do may result in you giving time in describing or education your audience in different ways as to the choice of your given items you have on / or that you have at your given campsite/store/stage. This time may or may not be available to you for each and every item you are displaying. However, you could use this chair concept as an example if you can accurately describe what you just put a video that is 19mins long into a 2min blurb during your discussion or reenactment question/answer period with perspective audiences.
3. For your enjoyment only - your items being historically accurate seem that it is a strong choice for you and is very important to at least appear to be functionally accurate in real world tests (I'm referring to your adventuring accuracy video you camped out in the cold and described your kit). I believe your choices reflect what is important to you. Whether you can describe why you chose to bring that item as opposed to a modern equivalent is very good as an example to describe the historical choices that real people needed to make to stay alive/be comfortable/be safer in an unsafe world.
This video is a really good example of one such choice that can be viewed in different lights depending upon the historically accurate mindset vs the I want to experience a different than modern aspect of what could have been in historical periods other than the modern day.
I can see how an African style came to the Boyscouts through Baden Powell and Fredric Russell Burnham from their time in Africa and the scouts amalgamation of multiple native cultures. You could say moern bushcraft does this. I do believe there can be something similar as were Ren Faires of the past. Possibly an anachronism group. People will cry fake but that is the point plus it allows for those that enjoy it.
"Wax went everywhere!" lolololol
Thanks
The role of visual media when portraying a historically accurate era is to be historically accurate. Perpetuating inaccuracies because they are perceived to be accurate is just compounding the problem. There isn't a need to explain in the script that it is accurate because there will be articles written about the research done to make sure it was accurate and what the findings are. If someone is interested in the accuracy, they will find the articles about it.
Now, if it is a fantasy setting, I feel that suspension of disbelief comes into play. You have more freedom to choose which pieces you want to be historically accurate and which you want to be inaccurate/fantasy/historically plausible.