I love that he gives the very reasonable explanation that it's called a kidney pouch because it's shaped like a kidney and then immediately switches to the honestly kind of bonkers explanation that it's made out of kidneys.
Lot's of kidney purses have two pouches, one small on on each side symmetrically. Like a pair of kidneys. It's honestly a really apt name for a lot of different reasons.
Kidney pouches were names after the shape. The “fleshy” Insides are all digestive tract; stomach, intestines, and bladder. The kidney is kind of a spongy consistency. On a semi-related note, the bota bag is likely named so as it was made of a hide covered bladder.
Fun fact; I made my first leather product before getting any leather tools. I used a fork for the stitching spacing, and punctured the holes with a scrap of sharpened wire.
I do tend to enjoy watching longer long form content, especially from RUclips channels I like, who I find are good at delivering and presenting topics.@@LivingAnachronism
A vial is made of glass. Quite impractical for travel and rather expensive. If you're taking any kind of liquid with you, why not pour it into a waterskin? I imagine a person that knows how to brew different concoctions and all that can very well afford and find useful wearing two waterskins - one for water, and another one for whatever potion he's got there. As for variety - meaning, what if you want to bring a few DIFFERENT kinds of potions with you? Well, there is a method that falls well into the technological capacity of medieval people but does end up being used mostly in the 17th century, and it's - gunpowder flasks! And you can hang them all over yourself like the early gunners did, but those would be your potion flasks - and NOT made of glass!
@@krein6121 In most fantasy lore a potion needs to be contained in a class or crystal vial because a water skin would contaminate the liquid with whatever material it's made out of.
@@krein6121 Not entirely true. We know of period vessels made of glass that were well-known to be used in specifically travel. Glass also interacts with some materials and chemicals in a way that other available container materials did not that were sometimes desirable.
This is one of the best channels on RUclips. The plague of fluff content that takes 5min of introduction to pad run time is the bane of my existence;.and he jumps right in, and in less than 2min i am already thinking "that's a good point purses have pouches but pouches don't have purses." High content to runtime ratio. Love it
I love that you mentioned 18th century pockets, they're super easy to make, and a big reason why I tend to lean into that period when designing my fantasy costumes. That and I like the silhouette of 18th century working womans wear and don't need to learn leathercrafting to make such clothing and accessories....even though I did learn to sew, crochet and knit for it. lol
You could even hide a cloth pocket in Renaissance wear. Just leave slits in the side seams and no one will know with big full bodied skirts! Abby Cox has great videos on pockets
I gotta object to the idea that before sewn pockets pouches were the only way to carry things. I've been playing with a greek chiton lately, and can report that the pouch formed with the fabric above the belt (called a kolpos) is really effective and huge, especially if the chiton is made from one big rectangle, rather than two. I've gathered apples in it before and carried about a bucket's worth before it became ungainly. Early Asian cultures stuffed things into their robes and sleeves too. I hypothesise that maybe pockets evolved after clothing became more tight fitting and they no longer had access to baggy folds of clothing to stuff objects into.
I like when I where my great kilt and have the smugglers pouches right where a hoodies pouch would be. Works fine for phones and hands, but my keys did slip out once.
I don't always comment but as a member or the SCA I love watching and listening while I work and write. Hope your folks are experiencing the SCA, LARP and Renn community they can put your ideas to use and have some fun. Cheers
Greetings from Southern Atlantia. This is one of my comfort / working channels too - I listen while sewing or painting. Hope this finds you and the other SCAdians well
The Stiff leather pouches are good for things that are a little more delicate (like Cell phones). The hard sides act like armor for the things you carry inside. I have intentionally made mine this for exactly this reason. Especially if you plan on fighting (like in a LARP) with your, we'll say cell phone (Modern stuff you need to hid for historical accuracy purposes), not to get busted from being hit by a overhard strike yet still be able to carry it without worry.
They are essentially a protective case, yeah. I think the leather over textile pouches was likely more a durability/protectiveness thing than a fashion thing per se. _Possibly_ also a price thing.
when I am thinking about a DnD character, I also think about, when I go hiking I always want food water and light. So I would want my bread bag pouch (snacks), my leather water bottle, and another small pouch for holding candles and a fire starter kit. When I am going to an event, I usually have a pouch for my cellphone, keys and wallet, and another that is designed to hold a water bottle.
i used to have weapons on sperate belt to everything else, my knapsack was over shoulder but under the weapons belt, so shoulder took weight and belt just held it in place like a pouch, quickly drop by taking off the shoulder and then down hrough belt....
A friend of mine used a green leaf brooch as a button on her pouches for Fantasy Larping, when she plays her Elf Character. They look pretty neat, but other than that, I wouldn't know what else to use as well. Thank you for covering the pouched and bag, that was something I always were a bit curious about
My next leather pouch for my fantasy ranger kit will be something like an IFAK (individuell first aid kit) modern soldiers carry on their belt kit or plate carriers. It shall contain 2-3 small bottles for healing potion, 2-3 bandages and maybe a extra pouch for herbs, magical healing items, stuff like that. The ranger kit also contains two leather pouches, the bigger (9" x 7" x 1.5") for all kinds of small stuff you come along with (gold nuggets and sausages), the smaller one for money, taverne-cards, hankies. One tipp, if you are at an event you have to carry keys for your car etc., secure them with a cord!!! I never lost mine, but saw people desperatly looking for theirs...
For an organ to make a good pouch, it must be made of a skin that can be tanned, the 3 that I am aware of are bladders as you mentioned, but also the stomach and scrotum from bovines are precedented.
I must be the oddball out. I didn't buy pouches until much later after I started. I don't actually go very many places in costume that often so didn't need pouches. I started with bracers and it snowballed from there. That gave me a chance to really examine the stuff that's out there to see what I really wanted. So now my costume consists of 1 soft pouch on each hip with a harder pouch on my back for an IFAK (Individual First Aid Kit). That one isn't carried as often unless I'm going to be around a crowd and someone needs medical attention. But building a full costume is a never ending thing.
Kramer how dare you say you're not creative! 😄 This entire channel is your creation and I'm so happy you made it! Love your videos, this one was super helpful and in depth. Thanks again for being awesome!
About the hard pouch I know of a historical use case for it in at least the late midle age, relatively small ones can be use to carry spectacles, a magnifying glass or a simple lens.
When looking for references of medieval pouches there is an easy trick: Search for the David vs Goliath story in manuscripts. David is always depicted with a pouch.
Some of this has been covered by others, but here goes. Purse has similar origins as Bursar, the University officer who is in charge of a University's finances (who once carried the money in a burse or budget {which was also a leather bag for carrying things in}). Also Bourse meaning a trading house. Purse = leather bag (for money) ..... or scrotum (c1300)! One probable reason for men having belt bags is that they wore shorter tunics, so a pouch on a long hanger was more likely to get tangled up around their legs as they walked around (or tried to get on a horse), while women's skirts stopped this happening. This is also reinforced by the frequency of high Church officials in effigies and illuminations having purses and pouches on long straps, because they wore long robes and were supposed to be calm and dignified, so no danger of them getting the purse tangled around their legs either. There are a fair number of 'belt hooks' surviving (for instance, The Met in New York has several) which could be used to 'hitch up' a bag or pouch to place it in a more convenient (or secure) location. I noticed you didn't discuss another method of kidney pouch construction, where the back and front flap are one piece & there is a large hole cut which gives two integral straps - even when you were wearing one. Kidney pouches were around for a really long time - at least from around the 700AD's - the Sutton Hoo burial had its magnificent purse plate of gold & garnets mounted of a horn backing, the Staffordshire horde has the remains of several similar plates edged in silver with fragments of horn or wood still wedged in the flap edging. If you look at 'Purses in Pieces' by Olaf Goubitz you will find that most kidney pouches were fully lined with linen - all the exposed inside leather surfaces, including the flap, were covered with sewn in covers which had 'button hole' stitched openings, at least doubling the number of internal compartments. That hooky buckle thing - originally a 1960's(?) box lock, Tandy leather started selling them in the early 1970's as leather shoulder bag closures
Oh hey, I referenced that same book in my comment! I doubt it was related to the length of tunic per se. The length of the tunic generally corresponded to lifestyle, not sex/gender. Males of higher socio-economic status tended to wear longer tunics, to lengths comparable to women's skirts at the longer end. It likely had something to do with the rougher lifestyle of the majority of men in question; they are less comfortable though sturdier and less intrusive in movements where there is a lot of legwork, such as the agriculture and animal husbandry most of the male population was involved in (or construction, lumbering, etc). It is likely they corresponded with shorter tunics not due to the tunics themselves but that tunics were sometimes shorter for the same reasons these purses were sometimes preferred (price and practicality).
And the Swedish word for purse is Börs. Wich is the word we got as a French loan word from the 17th century. And even the stock exchange market is called Börsen or Börsmarknaden in Swedish
I have one of those hooked closure pouches. The reason it is useful is that it can be opened or secured with one hand. Try using one of those buckle closures when you only have a single free hand. Ever try putting a buckled belt on with one hand? Not easy. The hook is weighted so it doesn't usually fly open. Also, if the purse has anything in it besides a few coins, the metal hook has a lot more friction and wont be tearing, like those thin straps or toggles would. Sure, they aren't made for an acrobat to be tumbling around with, they are meant to hold your items while you are walking around the market.
The hard cases could be used for things like jars and vials. Ink, elixirs, mixtures, tinctures, etc. COULD be more protected in a hard case. I carry one as my EDC pouch and can attest to the difficulties they present. Chairs, doors, hallways are all narrowed when worn on the hip, and mine is only semi hard. As a fantasy adventurer I'd likely have one or two attached to the strap of my haversack with potions in it for quick access. In today's tactical community hard plastics like kydex are being used a lot. Holsters, knife sheaths, ammo pouches, as well as battle belts to add some rigidity. Great vid! Thanks!
So I literally JUST got back from my medieval-fantasy camping trip! (Video on my channel coming soon) but we, off camera, discussed a subject similar to this. Because off the way i called my piuch a purse and used the terms interchangeably. My companion was interested by this so we talked about it. Also I REALLY WANT A KIDNEY POUCH!!!! Awesome Video, Kramer!!!!
A reason to use a big drawstring pouch: They're much cheaper. That's why I use one for my medieval clothes. I will probably keep that pouch on the belt whenever I get a pouch as well.
those clasps are more meant for furniture and boxes and such seen them on old jewelry boxes and such but they are brass and look neat so now they are on everything
Among the younger folks I have noticed a big resurgence of bags. Man purses. Shoulder bags. Fanny packs. Etc. now's the time to rock your all leather one.
I love how in English we always say two different words must mean the same thing if they both derive from an old common root word.....which I think is an awesome mistake about an aweful truth. Which fills me with a fair bit of awe.
I needed a bag for a larp and didn't have the time nor the care to make one that looked good. I grabbed two random pieces of leather that were roughly the same size and just sewed them together, and added a random strap It worked really well
The proper name for the purse as well. "Kidney" dagger and pouch is a Victorian anachronism. Note it was relatively common to stick the pouch and dagger at the very front of the abdomen.
I'm pretty sure the hook closure originated on trunks or similar larger, hard and mostly stationary cases and was then transplanted/retrofitted to pouches because it looks pretty interesting and historical.
I wonder if the differences between men’s and women’s bags was more due to the kind of tools they were carrying. Heavier but smaller tools like knives seem to work with the men’s pouches. Women were maybe carrying spinning work or other tools like tablets for weaving that are not very heavy but are bulky. I’m sure after a while it was just fashion though…
The hook closure is definitely a modern thing. Back in the day I worked at Tandy Leather Factory and I remember when we first started to stock those closures. It was about the time when we started bringing in a lot of items to appeal to the Steam Punk crowd, lots of antiqued brass items and gear shaped decorative items. Soon after it seems like every shop that sold leather bags at Ren Fairs or online had at least some bags with those hook clasps. At the time I came to the same conclusion, that they look neat, but didn't seem very practical. I guess they're popular, though.
I used to live not far from the Viking era Town of Birka (I lived in Stjärnhov or as translated Star Court)You pronounced it nearly perfectly, atleast better than I when I first garbled it.
I was waiting to see a piece of work made by Magnus over at Dark Horse Workshop as demonstration lol. His videos and patterns are what I’ve based most of my pouches off of because he tries to keep them historic if he can
While reviews on expensive products might be nice, I've really enjoyed your videos about just starting out on a really low budget. I would love to see more suggestions for things you can make at home for dirt cheap. Or things you can buy cheaply that still serve modern purposes.
I like the idea of mail reinforcing liners to pouches and their straps, just to resist cutpurses. But I'm a dwarf, and I dig metal hardware anyway. A purse that attaches securely to you behind the purse can bring the entire garment close to your body so it doesn't flop around noisily when you're mobile, like a soldier or adventurer. A tactical vest is the epitome of securely attached pouches with minimal flop. The down side is that it cannot move out of the way to accommodate your expanding belly or "saddlebags" when you sit down or climb. A close fit is encumbering. But a dangling purse can move about as you need it. Only being attached at the top, the bulk of it can rise and fall as your thigh moves, or even slide around to the side or the back, completely. And that can be perfectly convenient when you only move around slowly in a shop, office, kitchen, or wagon.
16:22 I wear a leather belt often for the purpose of hangin my puches or such off of it, and I do slot my modern bifold wallet onto the belt as shown here, and it's pretty secure. I just kind of figured it out accidentally, and I don't know if I'd be happy having it like that all dayn but for trips to and from checkouts where i might have my hands full (carrying food etc), it's been a game changer
Budgets....leather small tubes with caps were a medieval thing, in fantasy scenario would make great potion holders and map cases. also can be used to subsivide a larger pouch to hold coins, needles, fishing kit etc...
Just a thought. But I would love to see you go to war. SCA Pensic War to be exact. Would love to see your set up for the adventure (setting up your garments for at least a week out in the Pennsylvania sun and rain. Your choice of tent, feast gear, foot wear and why). Once you get there, the experience overall, but mainly what gear is failing you early, and what gear is rising early in its effectiveness. Of course, the back home report. What you expected vs what happened and why. Gear, function, comfort, etc. I pick war since I don't recall you ever mentioning that you had gone. If not Pensic, I hear the SCA Texas Gulf War is fun. Just a thought.
I learn in history classes that women carried drawstring pouches because they were in charge of the money of the house, and men carried gurdle/kidney pouchs because they were more pratical to carry with you the officials documents (job/guild/house certificate or titles) and men were in charge of the paperwork and the own with the titles for all the familly. I think it can be an other reasons to add to your list.
That makes sense to me. I believe women also held the keys to the house a lot of the time, as they were in charge of running the entire affair. A HUGE and very important job, no matter what social class
Some of it is fasion for ladies to wear drawstring purses, but the other side of it was practical. So those drawing purses for women were made to be tied around the hips sometimes under their outer skirt and ontop of one of their petticoats to be hidden and less like to be cut. That evolved into the 17th and 18th century "Pockets"
Great Vid!! The modern buckles like the swing clasp pouch are full on modern style. As a ren/larp leather worker we get alot of request due to the fact they look flashy and hold more. hard pouches like that also would have been called cases or leather boxes. more for storage or say on a pack frame.
Very cool video that gave me insight into my own pouch I have. I got this awesome little leather pouch from a rock and gem show that the guy made and I wear it everywhere. It's a very simple and basic build but it has so much character to it now since I've worn it camping and hiking and out shooting with my friends that it's an integral part of my kit when going almost anywhere.
I feel like "purse" before the 19th century refers to the soft drawstring bags. I don't have a specific citation, but in all the reading I've done over my life, it seems apparent.
In a modern military context the kidney pouch is a square pouch that when worn correctly covers the kidney. Trouser height or the belt mounting point may have an impact on the naming of the pouch as well
My wild guess about the drawstring purse vs the more sturdy belt pouch is that the purse conceals much better in the folds of the skirts. Also skirts and dresses often had slits on their sides to access whatever was tied to the waist and worn under the skirt. It seems difficult to assume that men were more active than women when one thinks of all the household chores that women had to do without the aid on modern technology. Of course, wealthy people had more leisurely lives but that applies equally to men and women
One thing I found is that ease of securing the pouch makes a huge difference when at faire or an event. Fiddly closures when you are shopping are super annoying.
Fun little tidbit to add the old norwegian word for pouch also translates into ball sack and animals sacks were often turned into a coin purse, not need for assembling or sewing, already the perfect shape and size 😂
5:42 The dangly purse is not ideal when out traveling or in combat situations. (Adventuring) I think that ladies wore them because they were just strolling through town no weapons, or a sturdy leather belt. Poorer women probably would have wanted a more secure place to store whatever money they had on them while out and keep it in a more robust pouch.. And the pouches wouldn't interfere with ones sword/dagger as much. Not bouncing all over the place while walking.
When i was in high school i was really into historical military uniforms, military history, and military fashion (ironically ive had zero family who have been in any countries military since WWII). But i have bags from ww1, ww2, and veitnam and a veitnam era belt, aside from being canvas they're very reticent of medieval purses. You had a bag for your shovel, gas masks, knives, and personal items like cigarettes and they all went on your belt. Just very interesting.
Great video. Personally, while I like the robustness and aesthetic of leather, I’ve taken to making small dual-layer drawstring pouches with a stopper on the string, and a belt clip sewn on the back, for carrying things like small hand tools, wallet, and so on, which I use on the daily, and they’re surviving well on my body, surprisingly.
To my knowledge, the swinging latch mainly seems to come from large book straps or other such things like that, besides some armor parts i can't seem to find any other real use in history for them
I have seen them on a lot of late 1800s stuff, like cameras and hard cases. Before that I believe that they were used on furniture like desks, china cabinets, armoires, etc.
@@darrinrebagliati5365 Oh good point, there was a lot used round about the 1800s, as for before that i think like you noted it was more hardware related to boxes, books and such, armor of course being one i think of right away as the oldest examples of them
While not historically accurate or at least quite uncommon, hard-sided pouches might provide a degree of protection for potions or medicine in glass or ceramic vials or flasks.
hard formed cases were around. in the book Purses and Pieces shows several types. one example was a purse that had a formed opening to hold wax tablet but could easily be sized for a phone now.
Could you do a video on how a knight or similar man-at-arms would carry more gear while actively campaigning? Because you need stuff like a shelter, bedroll, and perhaps even a book or other entertainment item.
Largely carried by the logistics train and if they had some, their transport animals. Soldiers rarely carried a lot of stuff other than their immediate military equipment (and often not all of that, either) outside of things like guerilla warfare.
I made a purse from 15th century Holland of which the cover flap is just as long as the bag itself and also has a cloth lining with a slit in it so you can use that as an extra compartment. It's pretty stiff and can get bulky but it's a really cool model that doesn't require a buckle, because the top is heavy enough that it keeps itself closed. But it might have been a very fancy purse because it has "AMOURS" (Middle French for love) worked into the leather. I just thought it was very neat.
For anyone interested in cool Medieval pouches and purses I can recommend trying to get your hands on the book Purses in Pieces by Olaf Goubitz, a Dutch archaeologist and expert on leather (he also wrote books on shoes and sheaths, with cool drawings of finds).
Coin based societies have superior quality of life. I don't mind paper for much larger amounts, but 1 dollar and 5 dollar coins would make life so much better.
I did not know coin wallets existed. In a multiple coin system like Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder having separated pockets for different coins makes sense.
West coast of Scotland we still talk about a poke (bag or packet) of crisps, or a poke of sweets. I had no idea that came from the Norse. You live and learn.
The small drawstring bags that work well for coins are easily stashed into a pouch. I tend to do that since it's a shorter drawstring, same as for my dice bag. Smaller ones also work well for protecting shiny things there. Such as your sunstone... Also, the kidney pouch seemed to be more of a combo of the shape and wear it's worn classically. The shape is a kidney shape, from the time I'd tried some, and the reason why the Kidney Bean got its name. You also have things like the Pilgrim's Purse/Pouch, which I think might have been where it started to differentiate between things, since the pouch version attaches to the belt and the purse is hung cross body. For something like the button and loop type closure, there is also the type where you simply pull a loop over the button to hold it closed. The easiest type to get of that type is Tandy's Windsor Pouch kit (I upgraded mine to use a concho instead of the leather button and added decorative beads to the draw for tightening the loop. The harder pouches, might have also been for later on, seems like more of something for once gunpowder started being used...or for things that would be more fragile.
I've worn a larger pouch and I find if worn a certain way it drags my belt down into my hips and hurts when it heavy, unless I'm wearing stays to ballence out the weight distribution . Since men are differently hipped, the flat pouch works well, and the weight of the pouch digs less at their hips.
I hope that one day you will share a free pdf pattern that can be downloaded for one of your works, such as a belt pouch, tinder pouch and so on.thanks for this one
Well, it's a tad bit later, so I don't know if anyone is going to see that... But I just came to a realization regarding pouches, pockets and fall/winter jackets. As my pouches are belt-mounted and it's starting to get into fall - so it's starting to get cold - I realize that I might have to cut the pouches of my fall and winter everyday jackets to be able to access my pouches easily. I don't use them anyway when I have my belt on (which is always) so I can just use them to access my pouches through the jacket without the need to open it (basically turning the whole thing into a real, medieval "pocket" with separate pouch accessed through the slit in the clothing). Also I can keep my hands even closer to the body when they are cold so that they warm up faster. I just wanted to share this because the thought helped me and it might help others too when they rely on belt mounted pouches to carry everyday stuff. Keep up the good work! And good luck on your adventures!
Personally, I like my coins and my sling stones/bullets in separate pouches. Getting those two mixed up can be unfortunate.
but a sling and silver coins are good against werewolves.
when the ruffians skull be split by thy silver coin
@@cybernoid001 That's kinda the point. Don't want to hurl pebbles at a monster.
Literally, causing a lack of fortune.
It can be an expensive mistake.
I love that he gives the very reasonable explanation that it's called a kidney pouch because it's shaped like a kidney and then immediately switches to the honestly kind of bonkers explanation that it's made out of kidneys.
Lot's of kidney purses have two pouches, one small on on each side symmetrically. Like a pair of kidneys. It's honestly a really apt name for a lot of different reasons.
I suppose if you really wanted to you could even wear it back by your kidneys.
Kidney pouches were names after the shape. The “fleshy” Insides are all digestive tract; stomach, intestines, and bladder. The kidney is kind of a spongy consistency. On a semi-related note, the bota bag is likely named so as it was made of a hide covered bladder.
Semi-related note: there are other things that are called “kidney” (table comes to mind) because of the shape of it.
What else are you going to do with all these kidneys? Make pie out of them? That would be bonkers.
Fun fact; I made my first leather product before getting any leather tools. I used a fork for the stitching spacing, and punctured the holes with a scrap of sharpened wire.
Renowned leather worker and author Al Stohlman got started with things he cobbled together on the war front. You're in good company.
Yes!! A 20+ minute Living Anachronism video. 🍿🍿🍿
Glad to hear longer videos are favored by some!
@@LivingAnachronism I love a video I can just soak up a bunch of info like this from
I do tend to enjoy watching longer long form content, especially from RUclips channels I like, who I find are good at delivering and presenting topics.@@LivingAnachronism
The more structured pouches at 18:20 do make more sense if you're dealing with fragile items, like potion vials.
A vial is made of glass. Quite impractical for travel and rather expensive.
If you're taking any kind of liquid with you, why not pour it into a waterskin? I imagine a person that knows how to brew different concoctions and all that can very well afford and find useful wearing two waterskins - one for water, and another one for whatever potion he's got there.
As for variety - meaning, what if you want to bring a few DIFFERENT kinds of potions with you? Well, there is a method that falls well into the technological capacity of medieval people but does end up being used mostly in the 17th century, and it's - gunpowder flasks! And you can hang them all over yourself like the early gunners did, but those would be your potion flasks - and NOT made of glass!
@@krein6121 Counterpoint: Glass is nonreactive, ideal for containing more... feisty potions.
@@krein6121 In most fantasy lore a potion needs to be contained in a class or crystal vial because a water skin would contaminate the liquid with whatever material it's made out of.
@@krein6121 Not entirely true. We know of period vessels made of glass that were well-known to be used in specifically travel. Glass also interacts with some materials and chemicals in a way that other available container materials did not that were sometimes desirable.
I have a large boiled pouch that I wear on the back of my kits belt to hold items like my modern wallet, phone, car keys and medication.
This is one of the best channels on RUclips.
The plague of fluff content that takes 5min of introduction to pad run time is the bane of my existence;.and he jumps right in, and in less than 2min i am already thinking "that's a good point purses have pouches but pouches don't have purses."
High content to runtime ratio. Love it
I love that you mentioned 18th century pockets, they're super easy to make, and a big reason why I tend to lean into that period when designing my fantasy costumes. That and I like the silhouette of 18th century working womans wear and don't need to learn leathercrafting to make such clothing and accessories....even though I did learn to sew, crochet and knit for it. lol
You could even hide a cloth pocket in Renaissance wear. Just leave slits in the side seams and no one will know with big full bodied skirts! Abby Cox has great videos on pockets
I have a pouch that expands, and the "button" on it is a flattened scallop shell. Those were a sign of someone who had made a pilgrimage.
Stuff I have seen multiple times used as buttons for pouches: teeth, cowrie shells, segments of barely worked branches.
I've seen wooden tent pegs
Growing family? That look didn't go unnoticed! What aren't you telling us?!?!
He just said it all... Hes been fuckin
The man's entitled to some privacy. Still, good for him.
Probably his second wife
The way he smiled about his family..... I cried. You get it sir. You get it. 13:53
I gotta object to the idea that before sewn pockets pouches were the only way to carry things. I've been playing with a greek chiton lately, and can report that the pouch formed with the fabric above the belt (called a kolpos) is really effective and huge, especially if the chiton is made from one big rectangle, rather than two. I've gathered apples in it before and carried about a bucket's worth before it became ungainly. Early Asian cultures stuffed things into their robes and sleeves too.
I hypothesise that maybe pockets evolved after clothing became more tight fitting and they no longer had access to baggy folds of clothing to stuff objects into.
Ooo. Good insight.
I like when I where my great kilt and have the smugglers pouches right where a hoodies pouch would be.
Works fine for phones and hands, but my keys did slip out once.
I don't always comment but as a member or the SCA I love watching and listening while I work and write. Hope your folks are experiencing the SCA, LARP and Renn community they can put your ideas to use and have some fun. Cheers
a scadian aaa, what is your kindom? When I was a part of the SCA I started in Midrealm moved and ended up in Calentir.
Greetings from Southern Atlantia. This is one of my comfort / working channels too - I listen while sewing or painting. Hope this finds you and the other SCAdians well
hi from Ansteorra here. I enjoy this channel and skilltree
The Stiff leather pouches are good for things that are a little more delicate (like Cell phones). The hard sides act like armor for the things you carry inside. I have intentionally made mine this for exactly this reason. Especially if you plan on fighting (like in a LARP) with your, we'll say cell phone (Modern stuff you need to hid for historical accuracy purposes), not to get busted from being hit by a overhard strike yet still be able to carry it without worry.
They are essentially a protective case, yeah. I think the leather over textile pouches was likely more a durability/protectiveness thing than a fashion thing per se. _Possibly_ also a price thing.
when I am thinking about a DnD character, I also think about, when I go hiking I always want food water and light. So I would want my bread bag pouch (snacks), my leather water bottle, and another small pouch for holding candles and a fire starter kit.
When I am going to an event, I usually have a pouch for my cellphone, keys and wallet, and another that is designed to hold a water bottle.
Pouches are so useful. Everything right on your belt allowing your legs to be free. Can't be a 90's antihero without a lot of pouches!
I'm so glad cargo pants are trendy again. Idk why I wore skinny jeans for so long
Paper and sticky tape is the best way to pre test ideas and get designs right.
Having a separate belt just for carrying stuff is what I stumbled into with my garb. Too awkward to mess with your pants to change things around.
Same here. I ended up getting a fanny pack that I attached my purse to for every day wear
i used to have weapons on sperate belt to everything else, my knapsack was over shoulder but under the weapons belt, so shoulder took weight and belt just held it in place like a pouch, quickly drop by taking off the shoulder and then down hrough belt....
A friend of mine used a green leaf brooch as a button on her pouches for Fantasy Larping, when she plays her Elf Character. They look pretty neat, but other than that, I wouldn't know what else to use as well.
Thank you for covering the pouched and bag, that was something I always were a bit curious about
Antler, bone, wood.... pretty much anything hard works and was likely used for buttons.
god i love these long form videos on details that are usually overlooked, my favorite content creator!
My next leather pouch for my fantasy ranger kit will be something like an IFAK (individuell first aid kit) modern soldiers carry on their belt kit or plate carriers. It shall contain 2-3 small bottles for healing potion, 2-3 bandages and maybe a extra pouch for herbs, magical healing items, stuff like that.
The ranger kit also contains two leather pouches, the bigger (9" x 7" x 1.5") for all kinds of small stuff you come along with (gold nuggets and sausages), the smaller one for money, taverne-cards, hankies.
One tipp, if you are at an event you have to carry keys for your car etc., secure them with a cord!!! I never lost mine, but saw people desperatly looking for theirs...
For an organ to make a good pouch, it must be made of a skin that can be tanned, the 3 that I am aware of are bladders as you mentioned, but also the stomach and scrotum from bovines are precedented.
20:10 That looks like a wood box/chest closure, for some reason I've seen them used on modern corsets as well
Same. doesn't make any sense to me tbh
I must be the oddball out. I didn't buy pouches until much later after I started. I don't actually go very many places in costume that often so didn't need pouches. I started with bracers and it snowballed from there. That gave me a chance to really examine the stuff that's out there to see what I really wanted. So now my costume consists of 1 soft pouch on each hip with a harder pouch on my back for an IFAK (Individual First Aid Kit). That one isn't carried as often unless I'm going to be around a crowd and someone needs medical attention. But building a full costume is a never ending thing.
Kramer how dare you say you're not creative! 😄 This entire channel is your creation and I'm so happy you made it! Love your videos, this one was super helpful and in depth. Thanks again for being awesome!
About the hard pouch I know of a historical use case for it in at least the late midle age, relatively small ones can be use to carry spectacles, a magnifying glass or a simple lens.
When looking for references of medieval pouches there is an easy trick: Search for the David vs Goliath story in manuscripts. David is always depicted with a pouch.
Makes sense. Where else would he put those five stones he picked out before the fight?
Some of this has been covered by others, but here goes. Purse has similar origins as Bursar, the University officer who is in charge of a University's finances (who once carried the money in a burse or budget {which was also a leather bag for carrying things in}). Also Bourse meaning a trading house. Purse = leather bag (for money) ..... or scrotum (c1300)!
One probable reason for men having belt bags is that they wore shorter tunics, so a pouch on a long hanger was more likely to get tangled up around their legs as they walked around (or tried to get on a horse), while women's skirts stopped this happening. This is also reinforced by the frequency of high Church officials in effigies and illuminations having purses and pouches on long straps, because they wore long robes and were supposed to be calm and dignified, so no danger of them getting the purse tangled around their legs either. There are a fair number of 'belt hooks' surviving (for instance, The Met in New York has several) which could be used to 'hitch up' a bag or pouch to place it in a more convenient (or secure) location.
I noticed you didn't discuss another method of kidney pouch construction, where the back and front flap are one piece & there is a large hole cut which gives two integral straps - even when you were wearing one. Kidney pouches were around for a really long time - at least from around the 700AD's - the Sutton Hoo burial had its magnificent purse plate of gold & garnets mounted of a horn backing, the Staffordshire horde has the remains of several similar plates edged in silver with fragments of horn or wood still wedged in the flap edging.
If you look at 'Purses in Pieces' by Olaf Goubitz you will find that most kidney pouches were fully lined with linen - all the exposed inside leather surfaces, including the flap, were covered with sewn in covers which had 'button hole' stitched openings, at least doubling the number of internal compartments.
That hooky buckle thing - originally a 1960's(?) box lock, Tandy leather started selling them in the early 1970's as leather shoulder bag closures
Oh hey, I referenced that same book in my comment!
I doubt it was related to the length of tunic per se. The length of the tunic generally corresponded to lifestyle, not sex/gender. Males of higher socio-economic status tended to wear longer tunics, to lengths comparable to women's skirts at the longer end. It likely had something to do with the rougher lifestyle of the majority of men in question; they are less comfortable though sturdier and less intrusive in movements where there is a lot of legwork, such as the agriculture and animal husbandry most of the male population was involved in (or construction, lumbering, etc). It is likely they corresponded with shorter tunics not due to the tunics themselves but that tunics were sometimes shorter for the same reasons these purses were sometimes preferred (price and practicality).
And the Swedish word for purse is Börs. Wich is the word we got as a French loan word from the 17th century. And even the stock exchange market is called Börsen or Börsmarknaden in Swedish
I have one of those hooked closure pouches. The reason it is useful is that it can be opened or secured with one hand. Try using one of those buckle closures when you only have a single free hand. Ever try putting a buckled belt on with one hand? Not easy. The hook is weighted so it doesn't usually fly open. Also, if the purse has anything in it besides a few coins, the metal hook has a lot more friction and wont be tearing, like those thin straps or toggles would. Sure, they aren't made for an acrobat to be tumbling around with, they are meant to hold your items while you are walking around the market.
What more important is what is carried within that determines how it is carried.
The hard cases could be used for things like jars and vials. Ink, elixirs, mixtures, tinctures, etc. COULD be more protected in a hard case. I carry one as my EDC pouch and can attest to the difficulties they present. Chairs, doors, hallways are all narrowed when worn on the hip, and mine is only semi hard.
As a fantasy adventurer I'd likely have one or two attached to the strap of my haversack with potions in it for quick access.
In today's tactical community hard plastics like kydex are being used a lot. Holsters, knife sheaths, ammo pouches, as well as battle belts to add some rigidity.
Great vid! Thanks!
So I literally JUST got back from my medieval-fantasy camping trip! (Video on my channel coming soon) but we, off camera, discussed a subject similar to this. Because off the way i called my piuch a purse and used the terms interchangeably. My companion was interested by this so we talked about it. Also I REALLY WANT A KIDNEY POUCH!!!!
Awesome Video, Kramer!!!!
A reason to use a big drawstring pouch: They're much cheaper.
That's why I use one for my medieval clothes. I will probably keep that pouch on the belt whenever I get a pouch as well.
those clasps are more meant for furniture and boxes and such seen them on old jewelry boxes and such but they are brass and look neat so now they are on everything
Among the younger folks I have noticed a big resurgence of bags. Man purses. Shoulder bags. Fanny packs. Etc. now's the time to rock your all leather one.
Be careful with 'Fanny Pack' - it does not always mean a waist bag, and may get you a slap (or punch/kick) in the face/tender bits.
Much to carry their large phones in most iPhones and smartphones are not the smallest to wear in pantpockets
This video is giving me the urge to make some leather pouches!!! So many styles to pick from
I love how in English we always say two different words must mean the same thing if they both derive from an old common root word.....which I think is an awesome mistake about an aweful truth. Which fills me with a fair bit of awe.
Love the background. It gives a wattle and daub look. And it seems only the die hard medieval enthusiasts know about that construction method.
I always figured kidney pouches were called that because that's where you generally put it, they fit very nicely right around the kidneys, either side
I needed a bag for a larp and didn't have the time nor the care to make one that looked good.
I grabbed two random pieces of leather that were roughly the same size and just sewed them together, and added a random strap
It worked really well
Bollock dagger...as in what it sounds like?? That sheathe in the old painting!
Yes. And what it looks like too
The proper name for the purse as well. "Kidney" dagger and pouch is a Victorian anachronism. Note it was relatively common to stick the pouch and dagger at the very front of the abdomen.
Thank you from Pembrokeshire, West Wales.
I'm pretty sure the hook closure originated on trunks or similar larger, hard and mostly stationary cases and was then transplanted/retrofitted to pouches because it looks pretty interesting and historical.
I wonder if the differences between men’s and women’s bags was more due to the kind of tools they were carrying. Heavier but smaller tools like knives seem to work with the men’s pouches. Women were maybe carrying spinning work or other tools like tablets for weaving that are not very heavy but are bulky. I’m sure after a while it was just fashion though…
First of all the new intro is gorgeous, well done. Secondly i really like this topic that you picked and the way you explained the history behind it.
The hook closure is definitely a modern thing. Back in the day I worked at Tandy Leather Factory and I remember when we first started to stock those closures. It was about the time when we started bringing in a lot of items to appeal to the Steam Punk crowd, lots of antiqued brass items and gear shaped decorative items. Soon after it seems like every shop that sold leather bags at Ren Fairs or online had at least some bags with those hook clasps. At the time I came to the same conclusion, that they look neat, but didn't seem very practical. I guess they're popular, though.
I used to live not far from the Viking era Town of Birka (I lived in Stjärnhov or as translated Star Court)You pronounced it nearly perfectly, atleast better than I when I first garbled it.
I was waiting to see a piece of work made by Magnus over at Dark Horse Workshop as demonstration lol. His videos and patterns are what I’ve based most of my pouches off of because he tries to keep them historic if he can
When you mentioned wearing a kit with multiple pouches, I immediately imagined you dressed as a Rob Liefeld character.
my favorite resource for leather bags is a book called "purses and pieces"
While reviews on expensive products might be nice, I've really enjoyed your videos about just starting out on a really low budget. I would love to see more suggestions for things you can make at home for dirt cheap. Or things you can buy cheaply that still serve modern purposes.
Growing family. Are congratulations in order ❤
4:03 also most "modern" purses (satchels) don't have strings; "tighten the purse strings" for being more frugal.
Where did you find the dagger? the latch came from tandy lol.... and your right its more victorian... or early 70's lol
Larp bollock dagger is from Fakesteel
I like the idea of mail reinforcing liners to pouches and their straps, just to resist cutpurses. But I'm a dwarf, and I dig metal hardware anyway.
A purse that attaches securely to you behind the purse can bring the entire garment close to your body so it doesn't flop around noisily when you're mobile, like a soldier or adventurer. A tactical vest is the epitome of securely attached pouches with minimal flop.
The down side is that it cannot move out of the way to accommodate your expanding belly or "saddlebags" when you sit down or climb. A close fit is encumbering.
But a dangling purse can move about as you need it. Only being attached at the top, the bulk of it can rise and fall as your thigh moves, or even slide around to the side or the back, completely. And that can be perfectly convenient when you only move around slowly in a shop, office, kitchen, or wagon.
16:22 I wear a leather belt often for the purpose of hangin my puches or such off of it, and I do slot my modern bifold wallet onto the belt as shown here, and it's pretty secure. I just kind of figured it out accidentally, and I don't know if I'd be happy having it like that all dayn but for trips to and from checkouts where i might have my hands full (carrying food etc), it's been a game changer
I love medieval pouches, thank you for making this video. Great stuff as always!
Budgets....leather small tubes with caps were a medieval thing, in fantasy scenario would make great potion holders and map cases. also can be used to subsivide a larger pouch to hold coins, needles, fishing kit etc...
I like the market wallet.
Just a thought. But I would love to see you go to war. SCA Pensic War to be exact. Would love to see your set up for the adventure (setting up your garments for at least a week out in the Pennsylvania sun and rain. Your choice of tent, feast gear, foot wear and why). Once you get there, the experience overall, but mainly what gear is failing you early, and what gear is rising early in its effectiveness. Of course, the back home report. What you expected vs what happened and why. Gear, function, comfort, etc. I pick war since I don't recall you ever mentioning that you had gone. If not Pensic, I hear the SCA Texas Gulf War is fun. Just a thought.
I learn in history classes that women carried drawstring pouches because they were in charge of the money of the house, and men carried gurdle/kidney pouchs because they were more pratical to carry with you the officials documents (job/guild/house certificate or titles) and men were in charge of the paperwork and the own with the titles for all the familly. I think it can be an other reasons to add to your list.
That makes sense to me. I believe women also held the keys to the house a lot of the time, as they were in charge of running the entire affair. A HUGE and very important job, no matter what social class
I enjoy all of Living Anachronism videos 🎉😊
I take old cargo pants and make man purses out of them. 4 complete working on number 5
I made a backpack and fanny pack out of a pair of carpenters pants!
Some of it is fasion for ladies to wear drawstring purses, but the other side of it was practical. So those drawing purses for women were made to be tied around the hips sometimes under their outer skirt and ontop of one of their petticoats to be hidden and less like to be cut. That evolved into the 17th and 18th century "Pockets"
Great Vid!! The modern buckles like the swing clasp pouch are full on modern style. As a ren/larp leather worker we get alot of request due to the fact they look flashy and hold more. hard pouches like that also would have been called cases or leather boxes. more for storage or say on a pack frame.
Very cool video that gave me insight into my own pouch I have. I got this awesome little leather pouch from a rock and gem show that the guy made and I wear it everywhere. It's a very simple and basic build but it has so much character to it now since I've worn it camping and hiking and out shooting with my friends that it's an integral part of my kit when going almost anywhere.
I feel like "purse" before the 19th century refers to the soft drawstring bags. I don't have a specific citation, but in all the reading I've done over my life, it seems apparent.
In a modern military context the kidney pouch is a square pouch that when worn correctly covers the kidney. Trouser height or the belt mounting point may have an impact on the naming of the pouch as well
My wild guess about the drawstring purse vs the more sturdy belt pouch is that the purse conceals much better in the folds of the skirts. Also skirts and dresses often had slits on their sides to access whatever was tied to the waist and worn under the skirt. It seems difficult to assume that men were more active than women when one thinks of all the household chores that women had to do without the aid on modern technology. Of course, wealthy people had more leisurely lives but that applies equally to men and women
Just discovered you today and subscribed. I myself was a member of the renn festival community for many years till going overseas.
Oh, I love the new place!
One thing I found is that ease of securing the pouch makes a huge difference when at faire or an event. Fiddly closures when you are shopping are super annoying.
Fun little tidbit to add the old norwegian word for pouch also translates into ball sack and animals sacks were often turned into a coin purse, not need for assembling or sewing, already the perfect shape and size 😂
5:42 The dangly purse is not ideal when out traveling or in combat situations. (Adventuring)
I think that ladies wore them because they were just strolling through town no weapons, or a sturdy leather belt.
Poorer women probably would have wanted a more secure place to store whatever money they had on them while out and keep it in a more robust pouch..
And the pouches wouldn't interfere with ones sword/dagger as much. Not bouncing all over the place while walking.
Dangly purse not ideal in combat?
*Everything Everywhere All at Once intensifies*
@@thatHARVguy Enjoy tangling yourself up with the cord.
I like all the historical pictures.
Great video! Love your channel Kramer.
Thanks Ben!
Wonderful video! 🙂
Really random and completely unrelated to the video, but I really like your hair :)
Thanks!
When i was in high school i was really into historical military uniforms, military history, and military fashion (ironically ive had zero family who have been in any countries military since WWII). But i have bags from ww1, ww2, and veitnam and a veitnam era belt, aside from being canvas they're very reticent of medieval purses. You had a bag for your shovel, gas masks, knives, and personal items like cigarettes and they all went on your belt. Just very interesting.
Great video. Love those pouches.
Great video. Personally, while I like the robustness and aesthetic of leather, I’ve taken to making small dual-layer drawstring pouches with a stopper on the string, and a belt clip sewn on the back, for carrying things like small hand tools, wallet, and so on, which I use on the daily, and they’re surviving well on my body, surprisingly.
Thank you A very informative video.
To my knowledge, the swinging latch mainly seems to come from large book straps or other such things like that, besides some armor parts i can't seem to find any other real use in history for them
I have seen them on a lot of late 1800s stuff, like cameras and hard cases. Before that I believe that they were used on furniture like desks, china cabinets, armoires, etc.
@@darrinrebagliati5365 Oh good point, there was a lot used round about the 1800s, as for before that i think like you noted it was more hardware related to boxes, books and such, armor of course being one i think of right away as the oldest examples of them
While not historically accurate or at least quite uncommon, hard-sided pouches might provide a degree of protection for potions or medicine in glass or ceramic vials or flasks.
hard formed cases were around. in the book Purses and Pieces shows several types. one example was a purse that had a formed opening to hold wax tablet but could easily be sized for a phone now.
Very informative, thank you :)!
Could you do a video on how a knight or similar man-at-arms would carry more gear while actively campaigning? Because you need stuff like a shelter, bedroll, and perhaps even a book or other entertainment item.
Largely carried by the logistics train and if they had some, their transport animals. Soldiers rarely carried a lot of stuff other than their immediate military equipment (and often not all of that, either) outside of things like guerilla warfare.
T'would still be interesting to see
I made a purse from 15th century Holland of which the cover flap is just as long as the bag itself and also has a cloth lining with a slit in it so you can use that as an extra compartment. It's pretty stiff and can get bulky but it's a really cool model that doesn't require a buckle, because the top is heavy enough that it keeps itself closed. But it might have been a very fancy purse because it has "AMOURS" (Middle French for love) worked into the leather. I just thought it was very neat.
For anyone interested in cool Medieval pouches and purses I can recommend trying to get your hands on the book Purses in Pieces by Olaf Goubitz, a Dutch archaeologist and expert on leather (he also wrote books on shoes and sheaths, with cool drawings of finds).
I propose we do away with cards and cash and go back to coins to make pouches fashionable again.
Coin based societies have superior quality of life. I don't mind paper for much larger amounts, but 1 dollar and 5 dollar coins would make life so much better.
Greetings from Croatia !!!!
Great video Man!!!
Greetings to Croatia from the United States! Thank you!
I did not know coin wallets existed. In a multiple coin system like Dungeons and Dragons or Pathfinder having separated pockets for different coins makes sense.
Always a pleasure.
West coast of Scotland we still talk about a poke (bag or packet) of crisps, or a poke of sweets. I had no idea that came from the Norse. You live and learn.
I enjoy learning from the past to prepare for the future.
The small drawstring bags that work well for coins are easily stashed into a pouch. I tend to do that since it's a shorter drawstring, same as for my dice bag.
Smaller ones also work well for protecting shiny things there. Such as your sunstone...
Also, the kidney pouch seemed to be more of a combo of the shape and wear it's worn classically. The shape is a kidney shape, from the time I'd tried some, and the reason why the Kidney Bean got its name.
You also have things like the Pilgrim's Purse/Pouch, which I think might have been where it started to differentiate between things, since the pouch version attaches to the belt and the purse is hung cross body.
For something like the button and loop type closure, there is also the type where you simply pull a loop over the button to hold it closed. The easiest type to get of that type is Tandy's Windsor Pouch kit (I upgraded mine to use a concho instead of the leather button and added decorative beads to the draw for tightening the loop.
The harder pouches, might have also been for later on, seems like more of something for once gunpowder started being used...or for things that would be more fragile.
A new day a new intro
I've worn a larger pouch and I find if worn a certain way it drags my belt down into my hips and hurts when it heavy, unless I'm wearing stays to ballence out the weight distribution . Since men are differently hipped, the flat pouch works well, and the weight of the pouch digs less at their hips.
I wear a WW1 ammo bandolier that i wear because while it is anachronistic it looks medieval esque, and also it's rather handy.
I hope that one day you will share a free pdf pattern that can be downloaded for one of your works, such as a belt pouch, tinder pouch and so on.thanks for this one
Well, it's a tad bit later, so I don't know if anyone is going to see that... But I just came to a realization regarding pouches, pockets and fall/winter jackets.
As my pouches are belt-mounted and it's starting to get into fall - so it's starting to get cold - I realize that I might have to cut the pouches of my fall and winter everyday jackets to be able to access my pouches easily. I don't use them anyway when I have my belt on (which is always) so I can just use them to access my pouches through the jacket without the need to open it (basically turning the whole thing into a real, medieval "pocket" with separate pouch accessed through the slit in the clothing). Also I can keep my hands even closer to the body when they are cold so that they warm up faster.
I just wanted to share this because the thought helped me and it might help others too when they rely on belt mounted pouches to carry everyday stuff. Keep up the good work! And good luck on your adventures!
13:50 - 13:54
And it also helps me provide formyself and my growing family.