I don't understand. I'm on a Facebook page with 50,000 owner members. A survey was recently launched. "Who has an engine that has never had an IMS or Bore scoring problem?" well 90% of all members have never had any problems. so I don't understand.
This seems to be more the UK view for sure - its a thing, but will affect a minority of cars. I wonder if generally higher US mileages (and colder winters in many cases) make a difference?
Great cars, had two 987.1 now with no issues, current 3.4 purrs like a kitten. Just have to look after them like any high performance car. All car manufacturers have issues, cars are thousands of parts and some will fail. Porsche are not immune to this, 964 have head stud issues, the list goes on…
"These are not bad cars". LOL. That was when I spilled my coffee. These ARE bad cars Nathan. There's no way to sugar coat it. I own an '87 Targa for 26 years now, and yes, it's a lot of fun. But it has been reasonably bullet proof. When I hear of all these low mileage, super expensive repairs needed on the later cars...well...we need to call out Porsche. Hard. Their products are way too expensive new to cause this much disaster to the people who buy them. Period. Only a fool would spend 100 grand on a car that needs an engine at 30k miles, right? If Toyota can make a reliable car that is priced at $30k, Porsche and all their engineering and profits sure as hell should be able to make a car reliable for $130k. Let's call a spade a spade. There are simply too many expensive issues and sloppy engineering to gloss over. Luckily, many people have money to burn, but there's a principle here that I feel Porsche is not upholding.
dude, you're talking out of your ass first off, they are actually very reliable cars. you obviously just read the BS on the internet and never owned one first hand. secondly, Toyota doesnt design their cars to be driven to the track, get pushed to their absolute limits and then drive home from the track. i know plenty of cayman s owners with 3.4 liter motors with well over 200k miles. its all in how you take care of the car. if you understand why it get bore scoring and how to avoid it. so please spare us.
I owned a '75' 914 back in the day and experienced much; the car almost burned down due to plastic fuel lines that disintegrated requiring two fire extinguishers, a 5-cent piece of plastic in the door handle mechanism between two metal pieces failed, had to buy a whole new door handle assembly ($400). I thought the model being on the lower end was the reason however shocking to see the issues on the high end. The 'principle' is right I have to believe even if you can fix them yourself would you really want to assume you can find parts? Because prices went up so high I avoided the purchase had they held the original price when new I would still go for it knowing all the issues (maybe)
My porsche mechanic opined the root cause of most cases of bore scoring is dull boomers and excited new owners rev flexing a cold engine to impress the neighbors.
I’ve had a2007 997.1 3.6 for 9 years now. Fixed/replaced to date. Front suspension, steering rack, exhaust back boxes, brake discs & pads, coil packs plus all usual stuff… tyres, servicing, battery. Everything but engine rebuild. But I am bracing myself. Hartech in Bolton, England are apparently the best in this field, around £15K for all 6 cylinders & pistons approx. These cars are a utter joy to drive… but like any high performance car you must be prepared to spend on the upkeep. You could go up another level to a super car that needs a new clutch ever 2 or 3 thousand miles. 😢 my summary would be, Yes these are good cars and annual oil/filter change I very important, maybe sump magnet. My personal experience is , I love the car. N.B. Not really driven during winter months or rain.
I disagree regarding the Mezger engines, bore scoring on these is incredibly rare and not worth mentioning .. They are bomb proof engines, many doing 200k miles plus and still running perfect.
Since the 928's inception in in 1978 it used Alusil and you never heard of 928 bore scoring. Grant it it's V8 and not a flat configuration but the Lokasil coating used on the water cooled cars has to play a role in the bore scoring.
These are terrible cars, such a disappointment owning a 996 C4S. Not fast, at all, the gearing is far too long, the engine response is poor from the electric throttle, the engine is just rubbish with IMS and bore scoring issues. Never ever again will I have a Porsche, slow, long gearing, poorly designed.
I’m looking at 996s right now and am walking away from a lot of cars. Constantly I am being told “plenty off life left” “you can drive for another 40k miles” and seller were refusing to discount the car, “but I’ve spent so much on the wheels, stereo, suspension or aero package etc There is a lot of delusion out there. In reality all m96 engines will score, unless wrecked or rebuilt.
This is very very very very very very depressing why does an expensive car have so many problems just like a waste of time to own it I have a 9872 supposed to have no more scoring you're telling me to ask for scoring all engines have it only has 20000 - 2009 unit
Common sense is needed here and don't get so hung up on your ego. If you have lots of money and don't care about what it costs. Then go ahead and pick up a Porsche. Most people however need to control what they spend on a car and pick something up with reliability in mind.
I bought a rebuild from jokers nein lives from eBay motor had piston slap after 1700 miles . Would not honor warranty after one year and 6 days . Complete thieves.
I’ve owned a 996 for a year now and I love it. The only major issue i have had is people “accidentally” dinging it in parking lots. Porsche envy even though it’s only a thirty grand car
I bought my 997.1 Carrera S in 2015 with 60000 miles on the odo, straight away i put the ims solution, low temp. thermostat and third radiator in, OCI at 5000 miles with 5W-40, oil analysis each time, consistent readings across the board, no wear metals, engine unopened, now passing 122000 miles without ANY issues, i just stay under 4000 rpm. until i get oil temperature (10 minutes) i also use 1 or 2 bottles with Royal purple Maxclean each season, note: I track the car hard !!
😂🤣😂 reality is NOT a scare tactic, many people like to keep their head in the sand when they hear bore score. It’s a matter of WHEN and not IF. All off .1 and .2 engines will develop bore score at some point
You are the most straight-forward, knowledgeable car guy on RUclips. Thank you for what you do. I'd love for you do do a book detailing 986/7-996/7 issues. There are so many people with opinions that disagree with each other. A book from you would be a Bible. I have a 50K mile 986 and I love it. I know I have to deal with the IMS bearing problem soon but it's really interesting to hear that the bore-scoring which is more difficult to dodge isn't an issue.
After doing weeks of research on this and other problems of perhaps purchasing a 987.1 or .2 , then watching this video on bore scoring, I've come to the conclusion that its just too expensive to own one. Great video, everyone should see it if you own one, or thinking about buying
I've had my heart set on a 987 also, and have been doing a good bit of research, as I normally do with any large purchase. I'm just a regular middle class working guy(truck driver, in fact), and can't afford to flush large sums of money down the crapper. I know that nobody really wants to do that, but some of us would feel the pain of such foolishness much greater, and would take far longer to recover financially. From what I understand, this hasn't been a real problem with the 2.7 engines. I believe the early 987 base with the 2.7 only has about 245hp, but most who own them swear that they still offer that awesome Porsche driving experience. I tend to believe them. I mean, it's still a freakin Porsche, and you still have a beautifully designed machine with the mid-engine placement, and all of the other traits that make these cars famously what they are. Remember, the very early Porsches didn't even break 50hp, and they made history for the driving experience. Just thought I'd mention it, as this is the direction that I've been leaning. Good luck.\o
Don't let idle for too long after start up, drive off and keep under 3k until warm - Very regular oil changes - add a low temp thermostat - clean leaves out of front rads - clean injectors regularly (they can remove oil in bore if leaky) - right viscosity oil with high moly or zddp - wire up fan override switch to trigger high speed fan if caught in start stop traffic in high heat day (fan kick-in is questionnable on these) - no constant short trips where oil does not get up to temp - bore scope bank 2 every year (mine's fine after 8 years) - BS apparently more of an issue in colder climates - Enjoy the damned M96 engined car, it's a peach
The piston is on its side and in contact with the cylinder wall. After thousands of startups that side will wear through to the softer material. Nothing you can do to stop that! And then an aging oil pump and oil pressure regulator spring will reduce the oil flow to the cylinder spray jets which is marginal even when new. And then aging cooling systems. And then a very unfavourable rod stroke ratios on the 3.6 and up engines. The only option is a rebuild and improvements to the oil systems. Spending 100k for an upgraded engine is not even addressing the core problem.
M96 is a peach yeah, some extremely sound pieces of advise you got there. fan override switch is a must! factory thermostat and second fan level kick in on those is a joke.
It looks like you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Cold climates must have a high temperature thermostat to first warm up the engine before it opens. Also, your idling story is absolutely shit. You do more damage when the engine is cold and the piston rings vibrate the crap out of your bores when you go for a spin. Washer oils may be true, but it's less bad than starting a ride with vibrating piston rings. When you let the car idle the revs are so low it wont do shit. Change the oils regularly and use RVS or Ceratec.
I don't follow - the title says "money scam" and refers to the workshops doing the engine-swaps for $10-15k. At the same time he says there is no way around bore score. So what is the scam then?
There is no class action because most don't ever get the issue as mentioned ... Factor out abused cars and improperly maintained cars and cars used in harsh climates and that number is even less. The issues mentioned are no where near what would be considered epidemic .
partially probably because Porsche enthusiasts (I am one) are very high-minded of themselves and biased, so they don't want to admit to themselves that they bought a faulty car (they did) or that their machine has a flaw.
It’s a lubrication issue. I consider it an engineering flaw. Porsche needed to add additional oil jets targeting the bore score area, bigger oil pump and more sensors to monitor oil flow and temperature.
I was thinking the same thing today. True that the cylinder material is incompatible with the piston coating, and more so with the piston after the coating wears off. BUT, in an ideal world none of those materials would ever contact each other due to a film of oil between them. I'm not sure it is possible though to oil this area sufficiently. I just shake my head that the problem went on for so many years.
Spot On! 2007CS, 47K mi. What we Can do Is accept that it will happen and Be Pro Active with our preventative maintenance using quality OEM/OM parts and top shelf fluids which in my world prolongs the inevitable!! Dig your vids/conversations!!
Don't let Nate freak you out ...he contributes to the internet hype issues with these cars which can affect a small number of these cars and certainly not the vast majority of these cars. Follow Jake Raby's recommendations and use good A40 oil with Liqui Moly Mos2 additive and you are good to go. I have owned 3 Cayenne's and 2 997.1's ALL with high K's and NO issues EVER !!
Thanks for the cold hard truth from your experience Nathan. Long ago decided I am just not up for all the maintenance that 911 ownership would entail so I've kept my S2000. Nothing but change the fluids (and top this year for the first time, it's a 2007). It's a worry free drive.
I’m fortunate to own both a 996.1 and AP1 S2K. Surprisingly the maintenance so far have been the same though the S2K has close to 200k miles whereas the 996 has 70k miles. Both great cars and worth the worry imho
Buy a 911.1. Perfect low maintenance Porsche. Fast, Fun, choose your transmission. Last of the NA cars. Great on the track, too!!!!! Prices are quite reasonable.
Great video. Always good to have 20/20 vision when dealing with these cars and videos like these can get the owners in the right mindset. I'm sure with the market being what it is there's lots of new owners holding the bag after paying all the money for a car that's been passed on with known problems.
I’m not going to be able to sleep tonight!! I’m taking your advice to have a watchful eagle eye and keen hearing to catch these problems before they get out of control and drain my wallet. Thanks for great honest content as always
Why these engines bore score: • Pushing the engine at too low rpm • Letting the car idle for too long at cold start, running too rich, viscosity of oil going down • Not using 10w60 • Not changing oil every 8k kilometers • Driving too short distances too often • AC compressor turned off aka. front fans not spinning aka. fans start to spin when the engine is already overheating • People not realising their engine is overheating since 987, 997 water gauges stay at middle and don't move no matter what aka. straight up lying. If you ever see them go above mid, it's far into overheating. Pre 996 gauges are honest, but you need to keep in mind that the shown temp is 10-15 C. higher than displayed, since the water thermostat sits on bank 1 where the cooled down water enters the block. If you ever run into bore scoring and got to fix your engine, the only permanent solution is a closed deck revision with aluminium sleeves, forget all those steel revisions, unless you want a fast temporary solution, then go for steel sleeves.
@@g.dejong1594 Good point, reason I use LM 5110 Liqui Moly Injection Cleaner time to time and only fill up good quality gas. I have OMV gas stations here in EU. The only ones talking about the usage of additives where particles help reduce friction. Most of the time you only hear gas stations talk about cleaning. Wether or not these facts are legit, don’t know. May karma hit them if this is just some marketing money grab
@@lun7n Yes, 986 and 996 are good. Just remember, if it says 80C, its most likely already at 90-95C on bank 2. Always have that in mind. So when you see your gauge on 100C, it would probably be good to let it cool down a bit. You can clearly see the needle not being spot on in the middle all the time. You will see the needle go above 80C, up and down, wether you’re in the city at rush hour or flying on the highway, unlike 987, 997. 997 got the oil temp, but I could not care less. Much rather take a honest water indicator. I can tell wether or not oil is on temp by looking at the oil pressure on 996 anyway.
The cars are all built with the same parts, yet some score at 34k miles and others do 200k plus miles. There has to be a better answer than they all do it.
Before I bought my 05 carrera I talked to 3 different shops and that all said in their 25years they have only seen 2 to 3 with IMs and bore scoring. He was like I am so sick of hearing about this! lol. Yes they need general maintenance and yes it can be expensive at times but for the most part they are very robust. Please drive and enjoy your Porsche!
Thanks Nathan, great honest words, not too uplifting but I don’t need sugarcoating. I own a 987.1 and a 987.2, you know why. I should have continued doing more research, but I got sucked in on an auction site. I don’t do my own work, but I do have an honest mechanic like yourself so I don’t mind paying his price. I want a Porsche, but I want one that doesn’t keep me up at nights or when on a trip. So which way do I go from here?
This is just an issue with *all* alusil performance engines. BMWs suffer from it too, the Alpina B7 is arguably even more famous for bore scoring than the Porsche M9x engines.
Good to know. I myself didn’t know this. I was wondering do you happen to know if bore scoring happens on newer BMWs in general because the twin turbo engines now and days produce carbon and from time to time I hear walnut blasting needs to be done.
I bought a 996.2 three years ago and while I was aware of the IMS issue, somehow in all of my research I missed the bore score stories. I immediately spent the money on the IMS solution from an LNE certified installer so I got a got bore scope and oil pan inspection as part of that process. While we were in there I had them do the clutch and AOS as well. Later I got the water pump and coolant tank replaced and also did the plugs and coils along with a few other bits and bobs. My plan was to keep this car forever so in addition to the cost of the car, I was willing to spend some additional funds on upkeep and preventative repairs. I think had I known about the bore score problem from the beginning I wouldn't have bought the car at all which would have been a shame because it's fantastic. Now I'm regretting some of the money spent on upgrades and maintenance, feeling like I should have just driven it for a couple of years and sold it for close to what I paid for it and moved on. It's going to be a hard decision should the worst happen here in the next few years having sunk so much extra money into the car/engine. I'm only at 55K miles, no smoking or oil use or funny noises so I hope I won't be having to make a decision about it for a long time but I've certainly had the seed planted of getting out of this car sooner rather than later, as much as I would hate to part with it. It's just hard to imagine putting another $25K into it for an engine rebuild unless values go berserk in the coming years. For those who don't know. Hartech has a partner company in the states now, Slakker Racing who are using Hartech's processes to do rebuilds and upgrades. They are located in Oklahoma City.
I can help ease your concern .I have owned 7 911s 1. 1975 2. 996 2.996 S 1.997 turbo 1.991.1S At this time I am driving a 991.1 turbo I bought them all used and put 100+ thousand miles on them with the exception of the car I’m driving now. I have only had two problems after driving these cars . I have somewhere around 300 to 350,000 miles of driving them. The problems I had were my 2001 1996 oil separator went bad. I changed it myself for $236 and my 997 turbo a plastic water pipe on top of the engine broke I spent three days in my garage, pulling the engine and transmission out and replacing all the plastic piping with stainless steel. Here is what I did to prevent bore scoring . 1. Never ever start the car let it run for a short time say 5 min and then shut it off when you first start the engine, injects, extra fuel into the cylinders to get the catalytic converters up to temperature quickly. The problem is it thins the oil out on the cylinder walls Then you come out the next morning and start it again thining the oil out even further . It takes the oil a while to reach back up to full thickness on the cylinder walls after it goes through this process, so don’t do that. 2 never use thicker oil thinking you are going to stop your car from bore score thicker oil = higher oil presser = less oil flow pressure is just a measurement of resistance to flow. The oil squirters that squirt oil on the bottom of the piston are extremely small. Ticker oil is a bad idea. 3.Never put your foot into it tell the motor is at temperature I don’t mean the water temp I mean the oil temp 170deg or more and that is hard to do. The reason is the oil squirter are squirting cold oil on the bottom of the piston, which keeps the piston from fully expanding into the cylinder, which means it’s loose. Not a good idea to put 300 hp into six pistons that are loose in the cylinder. 4 when I’ve owned them in the cold climates I used Amsoil signature series 5W 30 you can use what oil you want. You just need one with a high film strength. I hope that helps you out as you can see I’ve driven these cars a lot. Actually the cheapest cars I’ve ever owned from what I pay for them and what I sell them for when I’m done.
Meanwhile, my N52 powered 330 is fairly mint at 254k, and has only cost me 3200 in parts the last 180k and still going strong, and smooth. Yes, I work on them for a living, but Porsche is NOT better, neither is VW/Audi, they’re trash in comparison. I think you got burned out on BMW, which I understand as a mechanic. The non turbo 6 cyl Bimmers are better than any VAG car, by a long shot
For the price of an engine rebuild at £15,000 you could ask an engineering company to source and fit a different engine such as a Impreza 2.5T, K20 turbo, 2.7 V6 Audi Turbo, etc etc. The price for rebuilds on these is far far far too much, it’s a crappy, poorly designed engine unfortunately. I’m looking at swaps that cost less than a rebuild and result in a quicker car.
I bet you’re a barrel of laughs at parties! “These are not bad cars”! Jeez. According to you, every flat six is a ticking time bomb! Hate to know what you think is a bad car!
Love your videos but like some others you now got me scared shitless again. I have a ‘07 997 turbo tip w/ 37k miles well taken care of & never beat on. Typical random 1 in 10 times cold start blows some smoke just like my 996 turbo stick did. Randomly clicks at cold start but goes away. Never had the dreaded coolant or camshaft issue on either. I listen & feel & watch gauges. Scare last year I heard a noise like a whistle & got home & saw a little wet spot it was the water pump leaking. Had that, fuel filter, plugs & coils & a few other things done for $11K. Not cheap but Fing awesome cars. Couldn’t imagine a ruined motor.
Mezger engines have separate sleeves they even share the 964 crankcase. So if they do score you can get a set of sleeves. Is funny to see my GT3s 964 pn on the crankcase. Porsche club made a video and their video made sense that bad injectors can be cause, due to bad spray patter washing oil off the cyclinder (ecm throws more fuel seeing a lean condition). There is a high correlation between going direct injection and bore scoring.
i am confused about exhaust manifold/headers. Everything i have seen on internet is there is not significant gains. some gains at higher RPM and sacrificing torque at lower RPM. Do you have Dyno for the cayman?
Spoke with a highly rated Porsche mechanic this morning and he told me no matter the model year except for Turbos and GT's all showed signs of bore scoring when he scoped them doing a PPI. He has even seen it on 718 models. Only way to slow it down is change the oil every 3000 miles and drive it hard.
So I have a 2003 996 C4S with 95,XXX miles. No ticking, maybe 1 in 10 times light smoke at start up and around a quart of oil lost per 1000 miles. Never had had the bores checked. What are the cheaper resleave options if it comes to that? It's an Ohio car but always stored during the winter. I follow all the rules about warm up and revs, oil changes 1x per year for around 2000 miles of usage. Trying to hold on to the car as long as I can. Should it be de-catted with new headers? If anyone has input. please share.
What about using a engine heater ? Her in North Europe with cold winters engine heaters is pretty much on every car and they recommend using it when it is less then +10c or something like that to reduce wear on all cars. I would think that would help a lot on the Porsche engines with this problem.
Fab Speed full system with 200 cell cats. Installed and tuned by FabSpeed themselves. Plus regular oil changes with Driven oil. Replaced AOS. Never beat on it until everything is up to temp. We’ll see how far I get. I suspect well beyond 100k. Only 48k on it now. 2008 CS. I am not on the same page with Nathan. You see plenty of 987.1 cars with well over 100k on them. Many more than you see suffering from bore score. And extrapolate this out. The 987.2 bores aren’t all that different. We never talk about bore scoring on those. I will prove Nathan wrong by having a long term ownership experience that’s free from bore score. Because I take care of my stuff.
@@theasdqwe231i don’t recall the mileage to be honest. Likely in the mid to late 30,xxx miles. I replaced it for two reasons. The bigger of the two was simply age. The AOS was over 12 years old. How long can a rubber bladder retain its elasticity while managing hot oil? Probably a while. But the part is relatively cheap, easy to install, and much better than cleaning oil out of the intake. Preventative maintenance. The second reason, which likely has nothing to do with the AOS, is that the car blew out a nice cloud of smoke once upon starting it from cold. In hindsight, boxer engine parked on a hill for a few hours is what did it. But at the time, it prompted me to get a new AOS. I’ve not seen smoke from the car since that one time almost 3 years ago.
Thanks for the video, it's always great when someone with experience weighs in on the issue. PCA produced a series of 4 or 5 videos about 5 months ago that went deep into the bore-scoring issue. In a nutshell, if I correctly understood everything, the base engines are immune because they have cast pistons with a steel coating that maintain their size and aren't loose in the bore even when cold. The S engines are affected, with the exception that the 3.2 is a lot less impacted, because they all have forged pistons with a different coating and they expand once warm but are loose when cold. For this reason a low temp thermostat is preferred as it warms the engine faster and quickly allows the pistons to reach the necessary size and fit. A different type of oil is recommended to be used either preventively or once the scoring has started. It seems to first manifest in bore 6 and might be related to piston pin offset which is correct for one bank but the same offset is used for the second bank. I understood this to possibly be a cause for a slightly different piston angle on the opposite bank when cold which leads to that bank scoring first.
@@milchomarkov8158 Good question and I can't give you a textbook answer. I'm simply sharing what I consider competent advice that I've read or seen elsewhere. Since the intent is to get the operating temperature up to normal as fast as possible, I believe the meaning and use of the "low temp" thermostat is to close or remain closed if the coolant temps are below normal so that the pistons fit snug in the cylinders as designed. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will add to this.
@markwornom1050 no offense but that's utter bs. a thermostat begins to gradually open at a set temperature until the coolant reaches operating temperature - at which point it is completely open. until it starts to open the water pump is circulating coolant throughout the engine block only. when the t stat starts opening it lets more and more coolant reach the radiators which lowers coolant temp. a low temp t stat begins opening at a LOWER temperature which allows the engine to run slightly cooler until it reaches operating temperature.
@@milchomarkov8158 No offense taken and you might want to reread my comment. I never said I had the answer and my understanding of how a thermostat works is the same as yours. I was just passing on info I saw from PCA and what the intent was for installing one. The “low temp” term doesn’t make sense to me on the surface. Why don’t you instead ask gregjones92, the poster under mine, since he installed one and you seem impressed by his comments?
@markwornom1050 i have one installed as well. it's a double edged sword. if the low temp term doesn't make sense to you, do hold the up & recirc buttons on your ac simultaneously with the car running. navigate to 6c with the +/- buttons that adjust the temperature. select it with the central flow key and take a short drive in city traffic. for reference - the delta between coolant/oil temperature is around 20f.
I have an old 1966 911 and it broke a rod and destroyed one side of the case over thirty years ago. The cost for a rebuild including the case was around $7000. I actually thought about letting it go to the junkyard but now it's worth so much I don't want to drive it in traffic. I keep begging my mechanic to let me get a cheap Boxster or 996 911 and he just shakes his head and tells me how much it would cost. Sad. There's a place in England that supposedly has the "cure". They mentioned that piston coating failure. I can't remember the details but it's on RUclips. My two ideas are either A- Get a company like Wiseco that makes pistons for motorcycles to design a replacement along with a sleeve kit or replacement block. B- Swap in a Subaru turbo motor from the WRX STI. They had head gasket issues but that's mostly solved and people are tuning and getting good power out of them. If Toyota can put a BMW motor in the Supra why can't we put a Subaru in a Porsche? Such a shame that Porsche made their name through endurance races and simple design and now they can't keep them running. From the indestructible VW beetle decades of evolution has given us something so good it can't survive in the real world.
It's the forged aluminum pistons and the increased stoke of the 3.4 and large displacements of the M96/M97 engines that have the majority of the problem. The other engines have iron pistons. The cylinders don't have a sprayed-on coating. They have separate casted sleeves several millimeters thick of aluminum/silicon (called lokasil) within an aluminum block, other Porsches have a similar casting material but the whole block is aluminum/silicon with iron pistons. The issue with the M96/M97 is the piston the skirts have iron plating patches to prevent aluminum-to-aluminum contact and the plating wears off. Then you get that contact of aluminum to aluminum and it's only a matter of time. The longer stoke increases the rod angle at the bottom of the stroke and higher chance of skirt slapping which leads to wear on the power stoke (bottom of the piston/cylinder).
YT just show me this video. I own a 997.1 4S and I run it with my porsche club every month. Why on earth nobody in our club or the other national porsche clubs (and there are tons of M96/M97) has suffer bore scoring issues nor IMS problems? Everybody is happy with their cars, they track it. I thin IMO these are “internet things” very different with the reality. Seems that the very few ones that suffer it are always online and making noise, along with the companies that are profiting this thing.
Thanks a lot. Yeah, this is what basically killed my 996 from a financial standpoint. Car wasn't worth that much to begin with (Tiptronic, US car - not worth much in the EU where everybody just wants German cars, delivered in Germany - as if those were "better" somehow, the 10 years it was in Germany it had been parked outside!), but the engine started to make those damned sounds. And yup, there are a handful of companies here too that do the job, and you're lucky if you can get it done for 15-16.000€. There were options before in the UK and the baltics, but the first one has been killed by Brexit, the other ones are currently non-viable because of logistics. Also, you better know people there because your engine will be gone for 6-9 months and you get little communication during that time if any. I mean, if you really pull the engine apart and replace everything (which seems kinda smart if you have it out already, not doing the chain guides, gaskets, hoses etc... when it is out already would be foolish), then parts will also add up quite quickly. For people who bought a cheap 996 though, the price for an engine repair is in most cases as much as they paid for the whole car. Oh, and btw, the car was never maintained religiously at Porsche dealerships. Went 127000 miles without a problem, just got good fresh oil once a year (Mobil1 5W50) but most miles were put on it before I got hold of it and as I said: It was parked outside, driven daily as a commuter car (long distance, lots of Autobahn), never had IMS problems or any other issues so yeah - seems the road to longetivity is actually using these. Mine broke after 2 years where it was mostly parked and rarely used.
I spoke with a Porsche mechanic today and he told me every 2.7 he has looked at has had bore scoring. I was hoping by getting the base Cayman I could avoid it. even the 718 models have scoring
I can only find 24 of the 350,000 9A1 engines built from 2009-2016 which have reported bore scoring on Porsche Internet threads. Even if the actual failure rate were 100, still not statistically important.
@@Anonymous-k5r3b that makes sense. Thanks for replying. I'm impressed you've looked into this already in that amount of details. I guess I can just keep my eye on it. Hopefully mines not the 25th one! 🤣
I spilled my coffee when he said that, having done my homework I paid premium for a low mile 987.2BS. Key point, don't be a statistic. Thank you @user-qw.... for getting the numbers.
porsche club of america did two excellent videos on bore scoring a while back. in essence, they say bore scoring is 99% an issue of the larger S engines in the 987.1 and 997.1 series. I`m happy to go with PCA`s expert opinion, anytime.
bought my 997 manual for 30 000€ car is probably abused after 5 owners, says 160 000km, might be 300 000. Well running very strong and smooth. Engine was out at some point but what was done I have no idea. Only reason I know is non original hoses on spots where you cant replace them without taking enigne out.
Thank you for this content! Porsche enthusiasts (of which I am one, but not a deluded-by-bias one) have really ostrich'd with this issue and there's so much cognitive dissonance. If you mention it with the A1 / 997.1 / 997.2 or 991.1 they immediately shut down. Simple elemental result of Aluminum and silica; I'm getting a 996 Turbo to get the Mezger engine with the non-bore scoring nickel including lining (as I understand it off-hand). *tons* of technical information about this online. Really poor form on Porsche's part trying to dodge the issue. Should've basically been a model-wide recall.
@@pjay3028dual race bearing was changed due to torque load stretching and snapping timing chains, basically it’s less hassle to change a single race IMS bearing which has less torque to the chains and more load on the IMS bearing when you swap clutches than to tear down the engine to replace the timing chains and so the IMS became a serviceable part. The single race IMS fails because after multiple heat cycles the engine oil becomes acidic and corrodes the seals on the bearing and then starts corroding the bearings within the bearing. Once the bearings lose their shape the bearing is on its way to failure. Cars which are stored during bad weather have months with the same section of the bearing sitting in acidic oil and therefore fail quicker than daily drivers so avoid low mileage examples. The larger IMS bearing on the 997.1 was a relatively successful remedy to the issue. This is the reason why Porsche didn’t just revert to the dual race bearing. Basically the result of IMS bearing failure and timing chain failure are almost identical because IMS failure causes timing chain failure and so on the earlier 996 the failure was misdiagnosed as rare IMS failure because it was retro-diagnosed after single race bearing failures. Although I suggest changing timing chain failure at around 80,000 miles timing chain failure is most likely at around 100-120,000 miles which is why single race bearings started failing before dual race timing chain failures became more common and this is why the misdiagnosis occurred. Timing chains should be changed on dual race bearing engines at least every 80,000 miles and similarly IMS bearings should be changed at around the same distance. Stripping down the engine every 80,000 miles is way less practical than swapping out the clutch. You’re looking at an extra hour+ labour for an IMS where you’re looking at possibly 2-3 days more labour for an engine out and chain swap. Check your paperwork carefully Carlos, you will be taking your engine out at some point.
I had the IMS solution installed on my 2001 Boxster S and it turns out it had the dual row bearing. It was also in perfect shape still at 75k miles. From my understanding though, 2000 and 2001 Boxsters all have a chance of having either the single or dual row bearing.
@@Tiny_Speck you won’t need to worry about the dual race bearing but you must listen out for slack timing chains, the first signs of the chains snapping. Of course your chain tensioners will hide the stretching chains until they have fully taken as much slack as they can so when you hear the chains rattling you won’t have too long to get them changed. Sorry the news isn’t better.
Mercedes needing watchful caring hands ? Maybe the new crap Mercedes do but my 1991 Mercedes 190E I bought in 2002 and had for 10 years is the cheapest car to own I ever had, services did cost 1/3 of other cars I owned and parts when you bought not original (better quality) was cheep. I only replaced break pads and the coupe fan, muffler (put in sports muffler) and little things like that. All while I did see everyone else having expensive repairs on their cars almost every year...
In Europe prizes for a complete rebuild by one of the bigger renowed shops (Hartech, AutoResto, MH in the Netherlands) is around 12000 Euros. The smaller shops around 10000 euros for full rebuild. Some of the smaller shops also offer split services like you taking out the engine and bringing in the sorted parts for them to resleeve and clean. Of even if you don't have the skills build up the block, that can lower the price a bit. Furhtermore all that @markwornom1050 said is true. With most important drive them warm before you use the whole revrange and frequent oil changes. (5000-8000kms). But nice to have a sober view on it, keep the nice informative videos coming! One thing to note is that these cars are worth the engine rebuild, they are fun to drive, for that I always think it is interesting to buy a cheaper one that you have to fix up, then you can enjoy a like-new one longer) and eventually you will have paid the same amount of money as a nice one that will get issues a few years later.
My Cayman S Sport suffered from BS 2 yrs ago. Had the engine punched out to 3.8L and rebuilt. With all the "while you're in theres" it cost $28K. Luckily I didn't need a new clutch, flywheel, or engine mounts or it could've been higher, but I did replace hoses, fuel injectors, and other misc parts. It was rebuilt during COVID and took 1 yr. I think you meant 'water cooled' @5:45, because that seems to be when Porsche started having major issues with their engines.
Here in Europe prices for uses cars have gone totally crazy, a 1979 Ascona B (a cheep family car with 100hp 2 liter engine) cost 20.000$ to 40.000 which is same as a used Porche Cayman goes for.
As I understand it ALL boxer engines have problem with one side of the cylinder and piston getting worn out faster (simply because of gravity). But the Porsche engines got it double because of how the cylinders and pistons is made and some issues with the oil circulation as I understand it.
So the basic facts these aren’t truck engines they are like racing engines so from basic conception they need a different expectation and care. Like a Ferrari. So I hear they go like crazy and sound fantastic go enjoy.
Meanwhile there are a ton of high mileage examples out there rolling on the k’s…. Relax, be prepared to spend some $ when needed, it’s a car for crying out loud, enjoy it.
I really like Porsches but to drive it and find out i need 20k rebuild engines or buy 10k used engines that could have the same problem is a very hard pill to swallow. There's a reason why there's so "cheap Porsches under 30k"
Plenty of 997.2 and 991.1’s have bore scoring too, they’re starting to show up at shops. There’s a rebuild video on RUclips of a bore scored 991.1 base. The 9a1 is not as bulletproof as people think.
Hi Nathan, I recently noticed on my 1999 996 water leaking into the driver's side footwell carpet, so I checked the drains by the battery, and they were not clogged. Do you think it might be the gasket for the heat core leaking the water? this happens every time i wash the car. Also, what are your thoughts on replacing the IMS on my 1999 996 since they have the double bearings? Do I need to get it done ASAP or could it wait a while longer. I just got the car, and it has 67k. Thanks.
There are sunroof drains that run down the A pillar past the footwell. They are plastic and get brittle with age. That’s what caused mine. Get it sorted asap as the car’s alarm unit is under one of the seats, I had to replace that and my keys with it, was expensive.
@@joesmalley8421 thanks for advice. Unfortunately mine is a convertible and I think the gasket that covers the heater core is the culprit in here since all other drain since ok, now I’m trying to figure out how to install the new one. Thanks
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I don't understand. I'm on a Facebook page with 50,000 owner members. A survey was recently launched. "Who has an engine that has never had an IMS or Bore scoring problem?" well 90% of all members have never had any problems. so I don't understand.
This seems to be more the UK view for sure - its a thing, but will affect a minority of cars. I wonder if generally higher US mileages (and colder winters in many cases) make a difference?
Great cars, had two 987.1 now with no issues, current 3.4 purrs like a kitten. Just have to look after them like any high performance car.
All car manufacturers have issues, cars are thousands of parts and some will fail. Porsche are not immune to this, 964 have head stud issues, the list goes on…
"These are not bad cars". LOL. That was when I spilled my coffee. These ARE bad cars Nathan. There's no way to sugar coat it. I own an '87 Targa for 26 years now, and yes, it's a lot of fun. But it has been reasonably bullet proof. When I hear of all these low mileage, super expensive repairs needed on the later cars...well...we need to call out Porsche. Hard. Their products are way too expensive new to cause this much disaster to the people who buy them. Period. Only a fool would spend 100 grand on a car that needs an engine at 30k miles, right? If Toyota can make a reliable car that is priced at $30k, Porsche and all their engineering and profits sure as hell should be able to make a car reliable for $130k. Let's call a spade a spade. There are simply too many expensive issues and sloppy engineering to gloss over. Luckily, many people have money to burn, but there's a principle here that I feel Porsche is not upholding.
dude, you're talking out of your ass first off, they are actually very reliable cars. you obviously just read the BS on the internet and never owned one first hand. secondly, Toyota doesnt design their cars to be driven to the track, get pushed to their absolute limits and then drive home from the track. i know plenty of cayman s owners with 3.4 liter motors with well over 200k miles. its all in how you take care of the car. if you understand why it get bore scoring and how to avoid it. so please spare us.
Scotty from 8yrs ago was right!! These cars are probably “endless moneypits” 🤷🏻♂️😆yup with the hands…
Do the newer 911 and Caymans, say from 2015 and on have less problems overall?
I agree big brother I'm look at a 2020 911 too buy I'm scared to buy it
I owned a '75' 914 back in the day and experienced much; the car almost burned down due to plastic fuel lines that disintegrated requiring two fire extinguishers, a 5-cent piece of plastic in the door handle mechanism between two metal pieces failed, had to buy a whole new door handle assembly ($400). I thought the model being on the lower end was the reason however shocking to see the issues on the high end.
The 'principle' is right I have to believe even if you can fix them yourself would you really want to assume you can find parts? Because prices went up so high I avoided the purchase had they held the original price when new I would still go for it knowing all the issues (maybe)
Sir ,
Would you please give us some options as to where to get other vendors to re-sleeve these engines?
Thank you
LA Sleeve
My porsche mechanic opined the root cause of most cases of bore scoring is dull boomers and excited new owners rev flexing a cold engine to impress the neighbors.
Can you recommend what shocks I should get for my 997.1 s ? Over 110k miles, needs replacing. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge,,,👍👍
I’ve had a2007 997.1 3.6 for 9 years now. Fixed/replaced to date. Front suspension, steering rack, exhaust back boxes, brake discs & pads, coil packs plus all usual stuff… tyres, servicing, battery. Everything but engine rebuild. But I am bracing myself. Hartech in Bolton, England are apparently the best in this field, around £15K for all 6 cylinders & pistons approx. These cars are a utter joy to drive… but like any high performance car you must be prepared to spend on the upkeep. You could go up another level to a super car that needs a new clutch ever 2 or 3 thousand miles. 😢 my summary would be, Yes these are good cars and annual oil/filter change I very important, maybe sump magnet. My personal experience is , I love the car. N.B. Not really driven during winter months or rain.
My 986 is now 24 years old, no IMS or bore score
I disagree regarding the Mezger engines, bore scoring on these is incredibly rare and not worth mentioning .. They are bomb proof engines, many doing 200k miles plus and still running perfect.
How do you pass emissions after taking out the CATS?
What about the 957 GTS? No turbo heat doesn’t have the better liner?
Great video. Nathan just talked me out of getting a Porsche. If I ever win the lottery, maybe I will rethink my position.
I wonder if the cylinders are getting washed out from bad injectors?
Whats with the box hanging outside the window, puts me in mind of the dwarf in the Wizard of Oz film
I think it's a bird nesting box.
So what you're saying is the 996.1 is the best most reliable 911 😎. So they're you have it folks 1999-2000 are the best 911.
Finally someone that tells the truth. We're all going to hell !
Since the 928's inception in in 1978 it used Alusil and you never heard of 928 bore scoring. Grant it it's V8 and not a flat configuration but the Lokasil coating used on the water cooled cars has to play a role in the bore scoring.
They have been known to loose their coatings as well, but to what extent I'm not sure.
Thank you for the video it has great information. It brings to light honestly of things to watch for.
These are terrible cars, such a disappointment owning a 996 C4S. Not fast, at all, the gearing is far too long, the engine response is poor from the electric throttle, the engine is just rubbish with IMS and bore scoring issues.
Never ever again will I have a Porsche, slow, long gearing, poorly designed.
The only thing bad I've heard about air cooled was you get speeding tickets
I’m looking at 996s right now and am walking away from a lot of cars. Constantly I am being told “plenty off life left” “you can drive for another 40k miles” and seller were refusing to discount the car, “but I’ve spent so much on the wheels, stereo, suspension or aero package etc There is a lot of delusion out there. In reality all m96 engines will score, unless wrecked or rebuilt.
I saw `Man in a garage` now has a 991 engine with bore scoring. I think it has only 39k miles.
It’s the cold weather that does it!
This is very very very very very very depressing why does an expensive car have so many problems just like a waste of time to own it I have a 9872 supposed to have no more scoring you're telling me to ask for scoring all engines have it only has 20000 - 2009 unit
Common sense is needed here and don't get so hung up on your ego. If you have lots of money and don't care about what it costs. Then go ahead and pick up a Porsche. Most people however need to control what they spend on a car and pick something up with reliability in mind.
Just one thing...................Porsh?????????????
would you say the 986 suffers the same?
I bought a rebuild from jokers nein lives from eBay motor had piston slap after 1700 miles . Would not honor warranty after one year and 6 days . Complete thieves.
Really good info. Sage advice. Do you have any idea if newer 991 / 992 have same bore score?
There has been rumor, and very rare cases but from my research it is extremely rare…
Jake
I love these cars, but you’ve just convinced me to stay away!
I’ve owned a 996 for a year now and I love it. The only major issue i have had is people “accidentally” dinging it in parking lots. Porsche envy even though it’s only a thirty grand car
I have a 997.2 turbo with 101k miles.. should I be checking for bore scoring?
Surely you did your own research!
I bought my 997.1 Carrera S in 2015 with 60000 miles on the odo, straight away i put the ims solution, low temp. thermostat and third radiator in, OCI at 5000 miles with 5W-40, oil analysis each time, consistent readings across the board, no wear metals, engine unopened, now passing 122000 miles without ANY issues, i just stay under 4000 rpm. until i get oil temperature (10 minutes) i also use 1 or 2 bottles with Royal purple Maxclean each season, note: I track the car hard !!
Well one thing for certain - the scare tactics keep used Porsche prices from getting too high!
😂🤣😂 reality is NOT a scare tactic, many people like to keep their head in the sand when they hear bore score.
It’s a matter of WHEN and not IF.
All off .1 and .2 engines will develop bore score at some point
You are the most straight-forward, knowledgeable car guy on RUclips. Thank you for what you do. I'd love for you do do a book detailing 986/7-996/7 issues. There are so many people with opinions that disagree with each other. A book from you would be a Bible. I have a 50K mile 986 and I love it. I know I have to deal with the IMS bearing problem soon but it's really interesting to hear that the bore-scoring which is more difficult to dodge isn't an issue.
After doing weeks of research on this and other problems of perhaps purchasing a 987.1 or .2 , then watching this video on bore scoring, I've come to the conclusion that its just too expensive to own one. Great video, everyone should see it if you own one, or thinking about buying
I've had my heart set on a 987 also, and have been doing a good bit of research, as I normally do with any large purchase. I'm just a regular middle class working guy(truck driver, in fact), and can't afford to flush large sums of money down the crapper. I know that nobody really wants to do that, but some of us would feel the pain of such foolishness much greater, and would take far longer to recover financially. From what I understand, this hasn't been a real problem with the 2.7 engines. I believe the early 987 base with the 2.7 only has about 245hp, but most who own them swear that they still offer that awesome Porsche driving experience. I tend to believe them. I mean, it's still a freakin Porsche, and you still have a beautifully designed machine with the mid-engine placement, and all of the other traits that make these cars famously what they are. Remember, the very early Porsches didn't even break 50hp, and they made history for the driving experience. Just thought I'd mention it, as this is the direction that I've been leaning. Good luck.\o
I jumped to the 981, by the time it bore scores ill dump it at carmax god damn Porsche
@@mtnvortexyes had a 987.1 with 2.7, sold it with 280k km never had a single issue with the engine.
Don't let idle for too long after start up, drive off and keep under 3k until warm - Very regular oil changes - add a low temp thermostat - clean leaves out of front rads - clean injectors regularly (they can remove oil in bore if leaky) - right viscosity oil with high moly or zddp - wire up fan override switch to trigger high speed fan if caught in start stop traffic in high heat day (fan kick-in is questionnable on these) - no constant short trips where oil does not get up to temp - bore scope bank 2 every year (mine's fine after 8 years) - BS apparently more of an issue in colder climates - Enjoy the damned M96 engined car, it's a peach
The piston is on its side and in contact with the cylinder wall. After thousands of startups that side will wear through to the softer material. Nothing you can do to stop that! And then an aging oil pump and oil pressure regulator spring will reduce the oil flow to the cylinder spray jets which is marginal even when new. And then aging cooling systems. And then a very unfavourable rod stroke ratios on the 3.6 and up engines. The only option is a rebuild and improvements to the oil systems. Spending 100k for an upgraded engine is not even addressing the core problem.
M96 is a peach yeah, some extremely sound pieces of advise you got there. fan override switch is a must! factory thermostat and second fan level kick in on those is a joke.
Couldn't say it better myself. You summed up how to best prevent bore scoring.
Buy Japanese instead😂
It looks like you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Cold climates must have a high temperature thermostat to first warm up the engine before it opens. Also, your idling story is absolutely shit. You do more damage when the engine is cold and the piston rings vibrate the crap out of your bores when you go for a spin. Washer oils may be true, but it's less bad than starting a ride with vibrating piston rings. When you let the car idle the revs are so low it wont do shit. Change the oils regularly and use RVS or Ceratec.
I don't follow - the title says "money scam" and refers to the workshops doing the engine-swaps for $10-15k. At the same time he says there is no way around bore score. So what is the scam then?
Why isn't there a class action law suit on the bore scoring issue?
There is no class action because most don't ever get the issue as mentioned ... Factor out abused cars and improperly maintained cars and cars used in harsh climates and that number is even less. The issues mentioned are no where near what would be considered epidemic .
Yeah, seriously!
Because it got away with it for too long its past 10 years i forget the clause for it even the 981 is 11 years old now
partially probably because Porsche enthusiasts (I am one) are very high-minded of themselves and biased, so they don't want to admit to themselves that they bought a faulty car (they did) or that their machine has a flaw.
Same reason there isn't a rod bearing class action for BMW. A lot of people in denial
This guy is seriously depressing to listen to. Poor opinion piece.
It’s a lubrication issue. I consider it an engineering flaw. Porsche needed to add additional oil jets targeting the bore score area, bigger oil pump and more sensors to monitor oil flow and temperature.
I was thinking the same thing today. True that the cylinder material is incompatible with the piston coating, and more so with the piston after the coating wears off. BUT, in an ideal world none of those materials would ever contact each other due to a film of oil between them. I'm not sure it is possible though to oil this area sufficiently. I just shake my head that the problem went on for so many years.
Spot On! 2007CS, 47K mi. What we Can do Is accept that it will happen and Be Pro Active with our preventative maintenance using quality OEM/OM parts and top shelf fluids which in my world prolongs the inevitable!! Dig your vids/conversations!!
Don't let Nate freak you out ...he contributes to the internet hype issues with these cars which can affect a small number of these cars and certainly not the vast majority of these cars. Follow Jake Raby's recommendations and use good A40 oil with Liqui Moly Mos2 additive and you are good to go. I have owned 3 Cayenne's and 2 997.1's ALL with high K's and NO issues EVER !!
Thanks for the cold hard truth from your experience Nathan. Long ago decided I am just not up for all the maintenance that 911 ownership would entail so I've kept my S2000. Nothing but change the fluids (and top this year for the first time, it's a 2007). It's a worry free drive.
I’m fortunate to own both a 996.1 and AP1 S2K. Surprisingly the maintenance so far have been the same though the S2K has close to 200k miles whereas the 996 has 70k miles. Both great cars and worth the worry imho
Buy a 911.1. Perfect low maintenance Porsche. Fast, Fun, choose your transmission. Last of the NA cars. Great on the track, too!!!!! Prices are quite reasonable.
Great video. Always good to have 20/20 vision when dealing with these cars and videos like these can get the owners in the right mindset. I'm sure with the market being what it is there's lots of new owners holding the bag after paying all the money for a car that's been passed on with known problems.
I’m not going to be able to sleep tonight!! I’m taking your advice to have a watchful eagle eye and keen hearing to catch these problems before they get out of control and drain my wallet. Thanks for great honest content as always
Why these engines bore score:
• Pushing the engine at too low rpm
• Letting the car idle for too long at cold start, running too rich, viscosity of oil going down
• Not using 10w60
• Not changing oil every 8k kilometers
• Driving too short distances too often
• AC compressor turned off aka. front fans not spinning aka. fans start to spin when the engine is already overheating
• People not realising their engine is overheating since 987, 997 water gauges stay at middle and don't move no matter what aka. straight up lying. If you ever see them go above mid, it's far into overheating. Pre 996 gauges are honest, but you need to keep in mind that the shown temp is 10-15 C. higher than displayed, since the water thermostat sits on bank 1 where the cooled down water enters the block.
If you ever run into bore scoring and got to fix your engine, the only permanent solution is a closed deck revision with aluminium sleeves, forget all those steel revisions, unless you want a fast temporary solution, then go for steel sleeves.
And ensure you do not have leaking / faulty injectors. Fuel spray should not wash oil on cilinder walls/liner away.
So 986 1998 gauge is honest?
@@g.dejong1594 Good point, reason I use LM 5110 Liqui Moly Injection Cleaner time to time and only fill up good quality gas. I have OMV gas stations here in EU. The only ones talking about the usage of additives where particles help reduce friction. Most of the time you only hear gas stations talk about cleaning. Wether or not these facts are legit, don’t know. May karma hit them if this is just some marketing money grab
@@lun7n Yes, 986 and 996 are good. Just remember, if it says 80C, its most likely already at 90-95C on bank 2. Always have that in mind. So when you see your gauge on 100C, it would probably be good to let it cool down a bit. You can clearly see the needle not being spot on in the middle all the time. You will see the needle go above 80C, up and down, wether you’re in the city at rush hour or flying on the highway, unlike 987, 997. 997 got the oil temp, but I could not care less. Much rather take a honest water indicator. I can tell wether or not oil is on temp by looking at the oil pressure on 996 anyway.
Nope .. you can do all that. At the end of the day, with time and mileage, bore score will get the engine.
The cars are all built with the same parts, yet some score at 34k miles and others do 200k plus miles. There has to be a better answer than they all do it.
Before I bought my 05 carrera I talked to 3 different shops and that all said in their 25years they have only seen 2 to 3 with IMs and bore scoring. He was like I am so sick of hearing about this! lol. Yes they need general maintenance and yes it can be expensive at times but for the most part they are very robust. Please drive and enjoy your Porsche!
Thanks Nathan, great honest words, not too uplifting but I don’t need sugarcoating. I own a 987.1 and a 987.2, you know why. I should have continued doing more research, but I got sucked in on an auction site. I don’t do my own work, but I do have an honest mechanic like yourself so I don’t mind paying his price. I want a Porsche, but I want one that doesn’t keep me up at nights or when on a trip. So which way do I go from here?
This is just an issue with *all* alusil performance engines. BMWs suffer from it too, the Alpina B7 is arguably even more famous for bore scoring than the Porsche M9x engines.
Good to know. I myself didn’t know this. I was wondering do you happen to know if bore scoring happens on newer BMWs in general because the twin turbo engines now and days produce carbon and from time to time I hear walnut blasting needs to be done.
I wanted a Porsche but this issue is too wide spread. I will deal with bmw oil leaks. N55,n52,b58 for the win, they’ve all been rock solid for me
I bought a 996.2 three years ago and while I was aware of the IMS issue, somehow in all of my research I missed the bore score stories. I immediately spent the money on the IMS solution from an LNE certified installer so I got a got bore scope and oil pan inspection as part of that process. While we were in there I had them do the clutch and AOS as well. Later I got the water pump and coolant tank replaced and also did the plugs and coils along with a few other bits and bobs. My plan was to keep this car forever so in addition to the cost of the car, I was willing to spend some additional funds on upkeep and preventative repairs. I think had I known about the bore score problem from the beginning I wouldn't have bought the car at all which would have been a shame because it's fantastic. Now I'm regretting some of the money spent on upgrades and maintenance, feeling like I should have just driven it for a couple of years and sold it for close to what I paid for it and moved on. It's going to be a hard decision should the worst happen here in the next few years having sunk so much extra money into the car/engine. I'm only at 55K miles, no smoking or oil use or funny noises so I hope I won't be having to make a decision about it for a long time but I've certainly had the seed planted of getting out of this car sooner rather than later, as much as I would hate to part with it. It's just hard to imagine putting another $25K into it for an engine rebuild unless values go berserk in the coming years.
For those who don't know. Hartech has a partner company in the states now, Slakker Racing who are using Hartech's processes to do rebuilds and upgrades. They are located in Oklahoma City.
Appreciate an honest account I couldn't agree with you more. Such beautiful cars.
I can help ease your concern .I have owned 7 911s
1. 1975
2. 996
2.996 S
1.997 turbo
1.991.1S
At this time I am driving a 991.1 turbo
I bought them all used and put 100+ thousand miles on them with the exception of the car I’m driving now. I have only had two problems after driving these cars . I have somewhere around 300 to 350,000 miles of driving them. The problems I had were my 2001 1996 oil separator went bad. I changed it myself for $236 and my 997 turbo a plastic water pipe on top of the engine broke I spent three days in my garage, pulling the engine and transmission out and replacing all the plastic piping with stainless steel.
Here is what I did to prevent bore scoring .
1. Never ever start the car let it run for a short time say 5 min and then shut it off when you first start the engine, injects, extra fuel into the cylinders to get the catalytic converters up to temperature quickly. The problem is it thins the oil out on the cylinder walls Then you come out the next morning and start it again thining the oil out even further . It takes the oil a while to reach back up to full thickness on the cylinder walls after it goes through this process, so don’t do that.
2 never use thicker oil thinking you are going to stop your car from bore score thicker oil = higher oil presser = less oil flow pressure is just a measurement of resistance to flow. The oil squirters that squirt oil on the bottom of the piston are extremely small. Ticker oil is a bad idea.
3.Never put your foot into it tell the motor is at temperature I don’t mean the water temp I mean the oil temp 170deg or more and that is hard to do. The reason is the oil squirter are squirting cold oil on the bottom of the piston, which keeps the piston from fully expanding into the cylinder, which means it’s loose. Not a good idea to put 300 hp into six pistons that are loose in the cylinder.
4 when I’ve owned them in the cold climates I used Amsoil signature series 5W 30 you can use what oil you want. You just need one with a high film strength.
I hope that helps you out as you can see I’ve driven these cars a lot. Actually the cheapest cars I’ve ever owned from what I pay for them and what I sell them for when I’m done.
@@brenyz5013 Well said and great advice.
doing his best to keep market prices down but keeping us away from Porsches....
Meanwhile, my N52 powered 330 is fairly mint at 254k, and has only cost me 3200 in parts the last 180k and still going strong, and smooth. Yes, I work on them for a living, but Porsche is NOT better, neither is VW/Audi, they’re trash in comparison.
I think you got burned out on BMW, which I understand as a mechanic. The non turbo 6 cyl Bimmers are better than any VAG car, by a long shot
For the price of an engine rebuild at £15,000 you could ask an engineering company to source and fit a different engine such as a Impreza 2.5T, K20 turbo, 2.7 V6 Audi Turbo, etc etc.
The price for rebuilds on these is far far far too much, it’s a crappy, poorly designed engine unfortunately.
I’m looking at swaps that cost less than a rebuild and result in a quicker car.
I bet you’re a barrel of laughs at parties! “These are not bad cars”! Jeez. According to you, every flat six is a ticking time bomb! Hate to know what you think is a bad car!
Love your videos but like some others you now got me scared shitless again. I have a ‘07 997 turbo tip w/ 37k miles well taken care of & never beat on. Typical random 1 in 10 times cold start blows some smoke just like my 996 turbo stick did. Randomly clicks at cold start but goes away. Never had the dreaded coolant or camshaft issue on either. I listen & feel & watch gauges. Scare last year I heard a noise like a whistle & got home & saw a little wet spot it was the water pump leaking. Had that, fuel filter, plugs & coils & a few other things done for $11K. Not cheap but Fing awesome cars. Couldn’t imagine a ruined motor.
Mezger engines have separate sleeves they even share the 964 crankcase. So if they do score you can get a set of sleeves. Is funny to see my GT3s 964 pn on the crankcase. Porsche club made a video and their video made sense that bad injectors can be cause, due to bad spray patter washing oil off the cyclinder (ecm throws more fuel seeing a lean condition). There is a high correlation between going direct injection and bore scoring.
i am confused about exhaust manifold/headers. Everything i have seen on internet is there is not significant gains. some gains at higher RPM and sacrificing torque at lower RPM. Do you have Dyno for the cayman?
Spoke with a highly rated Porsche mechanic this morning and he told me no matter the model year except for Turbos and GT's all showed signs of bore scoring when he scoped them doing a PPI. He has even seen it on 718 models. Only way to slow it down is change the oil every 3000 miles and drive it hard.
So I have a 2003 996 C4S with 95,XXX miles. No ticking, maybe 1 in 10 times light smoke at start up and around a quart of oil lost per 1000 miles. Never had had the bores checked. What are the cheaper resleave options if it comes to that? It's an Ohio car but always stored during the winter. I follow all the rules about warm up and revs, oil changes 1x per year for around 2000 miles of usage. Trying to hold on to the car as long as I can. Should it be de-catted with new headers? If anyone has input. please share.
Curious to know of the machine shop(s) that you've found that can install closed deck cylinder sleeves at a reasonable price. Will you share?
What about using a engine heater ? Her in North Europe with cold winters engine heaters is pretty much on every car and they recommend using it when it is less then +10c or something like that to reduce wear on all cars. I would think that would help a lot on the Porsche engines with this problem.
Fab Speed full system with 200 cell cats. Installed and tuned by FabSpeed themselves. Plus regular oil changes with Driven oil. Replaced AOS. Never beat on it until everything is up to temp. We’ll see how far I get. I suspect well beyond 100k. Only 48k on it now. 2008 CS.
I am not on the same page with Nathan. You see plenty of 987.1 cars with well over 100k on them. Many more than you see suffering from bore score. And extrapolate this out. The 987.2 bores aren’t all that different. We never talk about bore scoring on those. I will prove Nathan wrong by having a long term ownership experience that’s free from bore score. Because I take care of my stuff.
At what mileage did you replace the AOS and why?
@@theasdqwe231i don’t recall the mileage to be honest. Likely in the mid to late 30,xxx miles. I replaced it for two reasons. The bigger of the two was simply age. The AOS was over 12 years old. How long can a rubber bladder retain its elasticity while managing hot oil? Probably a while. But the part is relatively cheap, easy to install, and much better than cleaning oil out of the intake. Preventative maintenance. The second reason, which likely has nothing to do with the AOS, is that the car blew out a nice cloud of smoke once upon starting it from cold. In hindsight, boxer engine parked on a hill for a few hours is what did it. But at the time, it prompted me to get a new AOS. I’ve not seen smoke from the car since that one time almost 3 years ago.
so 2010-2013 X5M with S63 engine would be a more affordable maintenance car... no?
Thanks for the video, it's always great when someone with experience weighs in on the issue. PCA produced a series of 4 or 5 videos about 5 months ago that went deep into the bore-scoring issue. In a nutshell, if I correctly understood everything, the base engines are immune because they have cast pistons with a steel coating that maintain their size and aren't loose in the bore even when cold. The S engines are affected, with the exception that the 3.2 is a lot less impacted, because they all have forged pistons with a different coating and they expand once warm but are loose when cold. For this reason a low temp thermostat is preferred as it warms the engine faster and quickly allows the pistons to reach the necessary size and fit. A different type of oil is recommended to be used either preventively or once the scoring has started. It seems to first manifest in bore 6 and might be related to piston pin offset which is correct for one bank but the same offset is used for the second bank. I understood this to possibly be a cause for a slightly different piston angle on the opposite bank when cold which leads to that bank scoring first.
how exactly does a low temp t-stat warm the engine faster?
@@milchomarkov8158 Good question and I can't give you a textbook answer. I'm simply sharing what I consider competent advice that I've read or seen elsewhere. Since the intent is to get the operating temperature up to normal as fast as possible, I believe the meaning and use of the "low temp" thermostat is to close or remain closed if the coolant temps are below normal so that the pistons fit snug in the cylinders as designed. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable will add to this.
@markwornom1050 no offense but that's utter bs. a thermostat begins to gradually open at a set temperature until the coolant reaches operating temperature - at which point it is completely open. until it starts to open the water pump is circulating coolant throughout the engine block only. when the t stat starts opening it lets more and more coolant reach the radiators which lowers coolant temp. a low temp t stat begins opening at a LOWER temperature which allows the engine to run slightly cooler until it reaches operating temperature.
@@milchomarkov8158 No offense taken and you might want to reread my comment. I never said I had the answer and my understanding of how a thermostat works is the same as yours. I was just passing on info I saw from PCA and what the intent was for installing one. The “low temp” term doesn’t make sense to me on the surface. Why don’t you instead ask gregjones92, the poster under mine, since he installed one and you seem impressed by his comments?
@markwornom1050 i have one installed as well. it's a double edged sword. if the low temp term doesn't make sense to you, do hold the up & recirc buttons on your ac simultaneously with the car running. navigate to 6c with the +/- buttons that adjust the temperature. select it with the central flow key and take a short drive in city traffic. for reference - the delta between coolant/oil temperature is around 20f.
After watching this video and doing a ton of research, I just bought a Toyota Camry
I have an old 1966 911 and it broke a rod and destroyed one side of the case over thirty years ago.
The cost for a rebuild including the case was around $7000.
I actually thought about letting it go to the junkyard but now it's worth so much I don't want to drive it in traffic.
I keep begging my mechanic to let me get a cheap Boxster or 996 911 and he just shakes his head and tells me how much it would cost. Sad.
There's a place in England that supposedly has the "cure".
They mentioned that piston coating failure. I can't remember the details but it's on RUclips.
My two ideas are either
A- Get a company like Wiseco that makes pistons for motorcycles to design a replacement along with a sleeve kit or replacement block.
B- Swap in a Subaru turbo motor from the WRX STI. They had head gasket issues but that's mostly solved and people are tuning and getting good power out of them.
If Toyota can put a BMW motor in the Supra why can't we put a Subaru in a Porsche?
Such a shame that Porsche made their name through endurance races and simple design and now they can't keep them running.
From the indestructible VW beetle decades of evolution has given us something so good it can't survive in the real world.
Hartech is the company in England, UK you mentioned.
It's the forged aluminum pistons and the increased stoke of the 3.4 and large displacements of the M96/M97 engines that have the majority of the problem. The other engines have iron pistons. The cylinders don't have a sprayed-on coating. They have separate casted sleeves several millimeters thick of aluminum/silicon (called lokasil) within an aluminum block, other Porsches have a similar casting material but the whole block is aluminum/silicon with iron pistons. The issue with the M96/M97 is the piston the skirts have iron plating patches to prevent aluminum-to-aluminum contact and the plating wears off. Then you get that contact of aluminum to aluminum and it's only a matter of time. The longer stoke increases the rod angle at the bottom of the stroke and higher chance of skirt slapping which leads to wear on the power stoke (bottom of the piston/cylinder).
Driven them, maintain them, enjoy them and when they blow throw them in the trash.
YT just show me this video. I own a 997.1 4S and I run it with my porsche club every month. Why on earth nobody in our club or the other national porsche clubs (and there are tons of M96/M97) has suffer bore scoring issues nor IMS problems? Everybody is happy with their cars, they track it. I thin IMO these are “internet things” very different with the reality. Seems that the very few ones that suffer it are always online and making noise, along with the companies that are profiting this thing.
Because ignorance is bliss. PCA know about it. Look up their video series on it. Lots of good info.
There's going to be many 2006-2008 cayman s models parted out.
Thanks a lot. Yeah, this is what basically killed my 996 from a financial standpoint. Car wasn't worth that much to begin with (Tiptronic, US car - not worth much in the EU where everybody just wants German cars, delivered in Germany - as if those were "better" somehow, the 10 years it was in Germany it had been parked outside!), but the engine started to make those damned sounds.
And yup, there are a handful of companies here too that do the job, and you're lucky if you can get it done for 15-16.000€.
There were options before in the UK and the baltics, but the first one has been killed by Brexit, the other ones are currently non-viable because of logistics. Also, you better know people there because your engine will be gone for 6-9 months and you get little communication during that time if any.
I mean, if you really pull the engine apart and replace everything (which seems kinda smart if you have it out already, not doing the chain guides, gaskets, hoses etc... when it is out already would be foolish), then parts will also add up quite quickly. For people who bought a cheap 996 though, the price for an engine repair is in most cases as much as they paid for the whole car.
Oh, and btw, the car was never maintained religiously at Porsche dealerships. Went 127000 miles without a problem, just got good fresh oil once a year (Mobil1 5W50) but most miles were put on it before I got hold of it and as I said: It was parked outside, driven daily as a commuter car (long distance, lots of Autobahn), never had IMS problems or any other issues so yeah - seems the road to longetivity is actually using these. Mine broke after 2 years where it was mostly parked and rarely used.
I'm happy to have the base 2.7. whilst not completely immune from scoring, it is extremely rare. I still take all necessary precautions.
I spoke with a Porsche mechanic today and he told me every 2.7 he has looked at has had bore scoring. I was hoping by getting the base Cayman I could avoid it. even the 718 models have scoring
@@alanbaxter5897 interesting 🤔. It appears no Porsche 6 cylinder is immune. Maybe the severity just differs between models.
Sorry, when did 987.2 begin bore scoring? I've never heard of this. Literally bought my 987.2 3 yrs ago beacuse it's not suppose to. I'm at 80k km.
I can only find 24 of the 350,000 9A1 engines built from 2009-2016 which have reported bore scoring on Porsche Internet threads. Even if the actual failure rate were 100, still not statistically important.
@@Anonymous-k5r3b that makes sense. Thanks for replying. I'm impressed you've looked into this already in that amount of details. I guess I can just keep my eye on it. Hopefully mines not the 25th one! 🤣
I spilled my coffee when he said that, having done my homework I paid premium for a low mile 987.2BS. Key point, don't be a statistic. Thank you @user-qw.... for getting the numbers.
porsche club of america did two excellent videos on bore scoring a while back. in essence, they say bore scoring is 99% an issue of the larger S engines
in the 987.1 and 997.1 series. I`m happy to go with PCA`s expert opinion, anytime.
As a 9X7.2 owner you’re relatively safe compared to the .1s, so don’t fret. That’s a good part of the reason why they cost so much more.
What about the 981 GT4 are those prone to it ?
Ha man you’re like an older me, and I love your vids. Had a 540i, watched your vids, sold it for a 987 and here you are again 😂❤
I got my first 996, did not come with engine or trany, any ideas on engine swap? Audi 2.7t, LS, Nissan SR20, vw tdi diesel engine?
Chevy.
I’m looking to buy a 99 carrera 113k miles bad taping sound do you think it could be bore scoring
Yes
Tapping, YES
That was a solid 15 mins of depressing drivel - going to go back through it for how to reduce the cause of bore score
If you did a liquid moly treatment, would that help prevention before the bore score starts?
Is bore score covered under warranty?
bought my 997 manual for 30 000€ car is probably abused after 5 owners, says 160 000km, might be 300 000. Well running very strong and smooth. Engine was out at some point but what was done I have no idea. Only reason I know is non original hoses on spots where you cant replace them without taking enigne out.
Thank you for this content! Porsche enthusiasts (of which I am one, but not a deluded-by-bias one) have really ostrich'd with this issue and there's so much cognitive dissonance. If you mention it with the A1 / 997.1 / 997.2 or 991.1 they immediately shut down. Simple elemental result of Aluminum and silica; I'm getting a 996 Turbo to get the Mezger engine with the non-bore scoring nickel including lining (as I understand it off-hand). *tons* of technical information about this online. Really poor form on Porsche's part trying to dodge the issue. Should've basically been a model-wide recall.
This is why I carefully chose a 2000 Boxster S.. (not a 2001+, or a base model)…no bore scoring on this engine and still dual row bearing IMS.. 👍
But do you know why they redesigned the IMS bearing in 2001?
@@pjay3028dual race bearing was changed due to torque load stretching and snapping timing chains, basically it’s less hassle to change a single race IMS bearing which has less torque to the chains and more load on the IMS bearing when you swap clutches than to tear down the engine to replace the timing chains and so the IMS became a serviceable part. The single race IMS fails because after multiple heat cycles the engine oil becomes acidic and corrodes the seals on the bearing and then starts corroding the bearings within the bearing. Once the bearings lose their shape the bearing is on its way to failure. Cars which are stored during bad weather have months with the same section of the bearing sitting in acidic oil and therefore fail quicker than daily drivers so avoid low mileage examples.
The larger IMS bearing on the 997.1 was a relatively successful remedy to the issue. This is the reason why Porsche didn’t just revert to the dual race bearing.
Basically the result of IMS bearing failure and timing chain failure are almost identical because IMS failure causes timing chain failure and so on the earlier 996 the failure was misdiagnosed as rare IMS failure because it was retro-diagnosed after single race bearing failures. Although I suggest changing timing chain failure at around 80,000 miles timing chain failure is most likely at around 100-120,000 miles which is why single race bearings started failing before dual race timing chain failures became more common and this is why the misdiagnosis occurred.
Timing chains should be changed on dual race bearing engines at least every 80,000 miles and similarly IMS bearings should be changed at around the same distance. Stripping down the engine every 80,000 miles is way less practical than swapping out the clutch. You’re looking at an extra hour+ labour for an IMS where you’re looking at possibly 2-3 days more labour for an engine out and chain swap.
Check your paperwork carefully Carlos, you will be taking your engine out at some point.
See my reply, you are not safe with a dual race IMS bearing and it will cost you more to get peace of mind.
I had the IMS solution installed on my 2001 Boxster S and it turns out it had the dual row bearing. It was also in perfect shape still at 75k miles. From my understanding though, 2000 and 2001 Boxsters all have a chance of having either the single or dual row bearing.
@@Tiny_Speck you won’t need to worry about the dual race bearing but you must listen out for slack timing chains, the first signs of the chains snapping. Of course your chain tensioners will hide the stretching chains until they have fully taken as much slack as they can so when you hear the chains rattling you won’t have too long to get them changed. Sorry the news isn’t better.
Mercedes needing watchful caring hands ? Maybe the new crap Mercedes do but my 1991 Mercedes 190E I bought in 2002 and had for 10 years is the cheapest car to own I ever had, services did cost 1/3 of other cars I owned and parts when you bought not original (better quality) was cheep. I only replaced break pads and the coupe fan, muffler (put in sports muffler) and little things like that. All while I did see everyone else having expensive repairs on their cars almost every year...
Loving my 987.2 base.
In Europe prizes for a complete rebuild by one of the bigger renowed shops (Hartech, AutoResto, MH in the Netherlands) is around 12000 Euros. The smaller shops around 10000 euros for full rebuild. Some of the smaller shops also offer split services like you taking out the engine and bringing in the sorted parts for them to resleeve and clean. Of even if you don't have the skills build up the block, that can lower the price a bit.
Furhtermore all that @markwornom1050 said is true. With most important drive them warm before you use the whole revrange and frequent oil changes. (5000-8000kms). But nice to have a sober view on it, keep the nice informative videos coming!
One thing to note is that these cars are worth the engine rebuild, they are fun to drive, for that I always think it is interesting to buy a cheaper one that you have to fix up, then you can enjoy a like-new one longer) and eventually you will have paid the same amount of money as a nice one that will get issues a few years later.
I have a question for recent Porsches more specifically the Boxster or Cayman 4.0 GTS, I was wondering how prone they are to bore score... thanks
My Cayman S Sport suffered from BS 2 yrs ago. Had the engine punched out to 3.8L and rebuilt. With all the "while you're in theres" it cost $28K. Luckily I didn't need a new clutch, flywheel, or engine mounts or it could've been higher, but I did replace hoses, fuel injectors, and other misc parts. It was rebuilt during COVID and took 1 yr.
I think you meant 'water cooled' @5:45, because that seems to be when Porsche started having major issues with their engines.
what year was the cayman s?
@@tomzphone 2008 w/ 75K mi at the time of failure.
Who did the rebuild?
Here in Europe prices for uses cars have gone totally crazy, a 1979 Ascona B (a cheep family car with 100hp 2 liter engine) cost 20.000$ to 40.000 which is same as a used Porche Cayman goes for.
As I understand it ALL boxer engines have problem with one side of the cylinder and piston getting worn out faster (simply because of gravity). But the Porsche engines got it double because of how the cylinders and pistons is made and some issues with the oil circulation as I understand it.
So the basic facts these aren’t truck engines they are like racing engines so from basic conception they need a different expectation and care. Like a Ferrari. So I hear they go like crazy and sound fantastic go enjoy.
Meanwhile there are a ton of high mileage examples out there rolling on the k’s….
Relax, be prepared to spend some $ when needed, it’s a car for crying out loud, enjoy it.
I really like Porsches but to drive it and find out i need 20k rebuild engines or buy 10k used engines that could have the same problem is a very hard pill to swallow. There's a reason why there's so "cheap Porsches under 30k"
Plenty of 997.2 and 991.1’s have bore scoring too, they’re starting to show up at shops. There’s a rebuild video on RUclips of a bore scored 991.1 base. The 9a1 is not as bulletproof as people think.
Starting it causes it. Turning it off and turning it on destroys everything.
i think the Flintstones had the same problem
⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
When it gets to this point, I'm just going to swap the motor for something more reliable. There are so many different options available.
Hi Nathan, I recently noticed on my 1999 996 water leaking into the driver's side footwell carpet, so I checked the drains by the battery, and they were not clogged. Do you think it might be the gasket for the heat core leaking the water? this happens every time i wash the car. Also, what are your thoughts on replacing the IMS on my 1999 996 since they have the double bearings? Do I need to get it done ASAP or could it wait a while longer. I just got the car, and it has 67k. Thanks.
You have to check the drains for the sunroof too if you have one
@@SupermotoCentral exactly. I run weed eater string through them to unclog.
There are sunroof drains that run down the A pillar past the footwell. They are plastic and get brittle with age. That’s what caused mine. Get it sorted asap as the car’s alarm unit is under one of the seats, I had to replace that and my keys with it, was expensive.
@@joesmalley8421 thanks for advice. Unfortunately mine is a convertible and I think the gasket that covers the heater core is the culprit in here since all other drain since ok, now I’m trying to figure out how to install the new one. Thanks
I am sure we have all figured this out, If you have the S engine, it is a matter of when bore score will happen, not if or might