911 997 Engines & Bore Scoring - My Experience & Knowledge So Far - 15 Diary of a Porsche Specialist
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Having specialised in Porsche for over 6 years in the UK I have come across all the major issues around 911, Boxster & Cayman models. The particular issue I wanted to share my own experience on, is one that most people don't like to talk about, borescoring. I am focussing on the pre 2009 generation 1 997-series 911 in this video, but a lot of what I say applies to earlier watercooled 911s and also 987 generation 1 Boxster & Cayman models. Whilst all of these cars are fantastic to drive, there can be some risks associated with internal engine flaws, find out more by watching the video.
Welcome to Diary of a Porsche Specialist! This is the fifteenth episode in a regular series of VLOG diaries of running a Porsche Specialist car dealership in the UK by me, Raj, owner of M R Sportscars Porsche Specialist in Hertfordshire.
Find out more about this car, my business and the rest of my choice Porsche stock: www.mrsportsca...
Signup for our Porsche Stock Updates by email: mrsportscars.c...
Someone very knowledgeable who gets to the point right away without narcissistic imagery. Thank you!
Thank you Flamewerkz for the kind words. Cheers, Raj
Buying Porsches (IMS, RMS, Bore scoring....)is like getting married you never know how long it will last and it might cost you a lot of money🤣.
Best analogy ever! Thanks so much! Cheers, Raj
"Might" cost you a lot of money? LOL. Both WILL cost you a lot of money.
True but buy anything else, you will lose a "bore scored" amount of money on depreciation.
He’ll yeah
true indeed I think I’ll take the 997.1 Porsche in that sense because at least I have something at the end of the day even with the bore scoring issue I spent the $12,000 getting the engine professionally rebuilt I don’t have to spend anymore money trying to keep it happy after that no child support or lawyer fees by the time all that would be over I could’ve probably rebuilt that engine for 12 grand twice to be honest and then you still have to deal with her crap after that at least if you rebuild the Porsche 997.1 engine you can have some enjoyment afterwards knowing that the issue won’t happen again lmao in a divorce it’s one never ending expensive issue after the next and she’s still not happy with you even though you’re divorced you still have to endure an earful most of the time every time you go see the kids hahahaha
I’ve watched countless videos on buying a 997 and learnt more from your video than the rest put together!🙏
Thanks Sean, really lovely to hear that! I am sure there is other good stuff out there but I am glad my video was useful to you. Cheers, Raj
Bought a 10 year old 997.1 4S in 2016 from RSJ. I immediately got it inspected by Hartech who gave it their seal of approval and approved it for their maintenance plan. They fitted a low temp thermostat and thank god, I have not had any problems. They stick a camera into the cylinders every two years but so far, all good. It has now covered 78k with no engine issues. Maybe Hartech have hit on the required preventative measure with their low temp thermostat? The car is mint.
This is really great to hear Trev! The low temp thermostat does really seem to work on some engines if you fit it before any excessive wear occurs on the cylinder walls! Keep on enjoying it! Raj
Mine was also fitted with a low temperature thermostat... And it needs driving and never rev a car when cold either... Change the oil religiously every year or more if you drive a lot.
What do shops charge to check the cylinders with the camera??
Mate, this is the best summary of the saga I’ve found. Well done for the clear, honest, accurate explanation of what could occur and how to remedy it, set out in a reassuring way. Mine is a cobalt blue 2006 Cayman S 3.4 bought 7 years ago and done 11k miles in that time😱🤷🏻, with 53k on the clock. No crisis yet and normal wear and tear maintenance. Subscribed😉
Thanks Derrick! Glad you found it useful and appreciate the honest review about my video. The last thing I want to do is scare-monger, however for those looking to buy their first Porsche, should be aware of what to look out for and consider to avoid sleepness nights finding out down the road. All Porsches are great in my opinion, the 987 S in Cobalt Blue you have sounds perfect, I sold one a few years back in the at combo, a 2006 too. Still running fine as far as I know too! Cheers, Raj
I have a 997.1 S. I feel like its almost a blessing in disguise. If it blows I'll rebuild with a 4 litre. If I was in the market I'd buy the cheapest 997 I could and then I'd have the engine rebuilt with a 4 litre straight away. The Gen 2's are priced 10-12k more (and have horrible rear lights)? and the 991's and above are £50k+. If you're in it for the long run why not? Makes sense. 997.1 is a beautiful shape and a sure fire future classic.
Great outlook Jim. If the car was for me, I would consider doing the same too. Cheers, Raj
Thank you M R Sportscars. Very informative. Jim, I'm with you. I just bought a 2007 S with 60K miles. It's in amazing shape with no symptoms but I will start saving in case I need to upgrade it to a 3.9 or 4 litre when my engine explodes. Great idea. Life is full of risks...at some point you need to make a move based on your budget, taste etc.
Yup. .2s +£10k and horrible rear lights. First time I’ve seen it written. I agree.
A very happy bore score free 2005 C2 owner.
Every generation has it's issues. The old air cooled Porsches were no exception. The old air cooled version for sure had valve jobs done that cost $10-15k along with obd, and oil leaking issues to boot. The newer cars have had high pressure fuel pump issues, carbon build up on the valves, and bore scoring as well in colder climates. PDK issues are beginning to pop up a lot now too as time marches on. I love all Porsches and have driven over 400,000 miles in the water cooled versions with no issues. The reason you hear more about these problems more often is because they built at least 4x's the number as the air cooled versions. So of course it will seem more problematic. It is interesting that if an owner of an air-cooled rebuilds his engine because of bad valve guides and it costs $15k, then it is considered cool and hip. Yet, if a 997 owner rebuilds a 10-15 year old engine, some how it is considered a massive failure for the brand. Garage queens are the worst with low mileage. If you don't drive these cars like a bat out of hell and get some heat in to them, keep them lubricated well, then you are bound to see problems from neglect and letting them sit.
Thanks for your insights, yes I do agree with what you are saying, over time the 'shame' of rebuilding an early watercooled engine, it will be seen as a badge of honour and improvement! We can hope anyway! Thanks Raj
I guess the difference is that 15k is a relatively small proportion of the value of an air cooled car whereas its probably around 50% of the value of a 997 at the moment.
@@pjay3028 Not necessarily. It seems like you may be referring to the lowest priced example of a 997 non-S 3.6 liter and a higher priced example of an air cooled. Nice condition 997.1 with 3.8 engine have been going up in price and currently hovering in the 50-60k range. The non-s 3.6 997.1, which you may be referring to, can range between 35-45k for a nice example. I understand your point, but depending on the air-cooled model they can range from 30k-60k for a good air-cooled as well. Regardless, Everyone should know that jumping in to an older 911, whether watercooled or air cooled does not have any guarantees. Both of these models can have very expensive issues, so buyers need to do their due diligence and homework when considering a purchase.
@@qikqbn77 I'm talking about UK prices which are 20-25k gbp for a 997.1 3.8 and 60 -100k+ gbp for air cooled. I'm staggered that you could get any air cooled 911 for a similar amount to a 997.1! No way is that happening here. If you would give me those kinds of values for my 997.1 3.8 I would be very tempted to sell and probably even pay for the shipping to get it to you!
@@pjay3028 Didn't realize you were in the UK. Big differences in price there. Here in California you can find some nice 993's in the 50k range. Especially a lot of convertibles which can price in the 40-50k range. The prices are all over the place depending on mileage and for sure, in general, a pristine or low mileage air cooled 911 will always cost more than a nice 997.1. No argument there.
There needs to be a change in thought on buying these 997's. Instead of buying low mileage cars that have spent most of the lives in a garage buy one with 80,000 miles on the clock, any problems would have been sorted by then. I have a 997.1 3.8 with 100,000 miles on the clock, full folder full of receipts for all the problems you mentioned.... I enjoy keeping it as a Porsche should be kept 👍
Thanks Sole Mods, totally agree that this approach also needs to be considered, I sold a 99k mile one a number of years ago and it is still all good (as far as I know!). Cheers, Raj
High mileage and well looked after is usually the best way to go with any car. Low mileage usually means short trips.
Very wise point.
This was a great source of info for someone who doesn't know a lot about the 911. Thanks!
No problem! Glad it was helpful! Raj
There is an excellent video from FlatSixInnovations, where they listen to the cylinders using an engine stethoscope (costs about 5 quid), to identify bore scoring. A visual inspection won’t identify scoring at the very bottom of the cylinder (which is where it starts to score). I used that video to compare my own 997 3.8, thankfully no issues.
But quite honestly, the car is so amazing that I’m seriously considering having it upgraded to a 4.0 anyway.
I do believe the dual-row IMS bearing fitted to 99.9% of 997’s is far less likely to fail than the weaker 996 bearing, but infrequent oil changes, as always, exacerbates any issues. I have zero concern about the IMS, but bore scoring will happen eventually.
Thank you I999, your comments and advice are much appreciated! I would also do a rebuild on one of these for myself. If you buy with this intention then they are great buy, I just can't stand behind them from a customer/reputation/business perspective unless already rebuilt. Cheers, Raj
Great video explaining the common issues around 997.1 ownership.
Thanks Grant, not a video I relished or enjoyed making but I felt it needed to be said to help others understand this issue a bit more before making a decision either way! Raj
Quite sobering, I did read a comment attributed to Hartech that they will all bore score eventually it’s just a matter of when. Very informative video, keep them coming and thanks for sharing 👍
Thank you Phil, really appreciate the lovely words and it is definitely very sobering. I’ve had many sleepless nights over bore scoring and decided to change my business as a result of the issue. Hartech and many others do a huge number of rebuilds each month, so this clearly is a big issue, no one would voluntarily pay £8-12k for a rebuild if not required! Cheers, Raj
Hi there, great video and explanation of the Bore Scoring issue and its potential causes and signs. I have a 997.1 Carrera 4, 3.6L with 175,000kms. I had a borescope done pre purchase, and the report stated mild scoring consistent with the age and kms on the car. It does not use oil. I did a lot of research including getting independent advice and still purchased the vehicle knowing that with 997 values likely to increase in years to come it’s still worth investing in a rebuild if required. It’s important to note that the 3.8L engines are more prone and there is evidence that 997.2 models are also prone to bore scoring according Rennlist though less likely than the 997.1 series. There is a lot of scare mongering on the internet which has blown these issues way out of proportion, but understandably in your business you can give your customers peace of mind. Cheers.
Thanks Craig, appreciate the comments and I think all cars in general will start to show some marks on the cylinder marks over time, it is inevitable. Oil consumption is when you need to really take note. I have read also what you say, 3.8 are more susceptible, especially the Tiptronic. I have yet to come across a gen 2 with scoring or oil consumption/smoking etc. but I also see the reports on forums of cases. The internet scare stories can exaggerate the reality, how many Porsche owners regularly report online about how healthy, enjoyable and trouble-free their cars are? I think more of those that are unhappy are likely to speak up online. Thanks again! Raj
"consistent with the age"
Sorry, but it's consistent with cr@p engineering!
Raj, nice informative video on this issue.
Thanks Raymond! Worth being aware of I think. Cheers, Raj
Yet another top quality video! Thank you Raj. I’m getting close to making my 911 purchase now but think I’m Definitely going to default to yourself to make the purchase after viewing all your videos. Cheers.
Thanks Basher, really appreciate your kind words and happy to assist with supplying your new 911 when ready. Thanks, Raj
It is really sad that Porsche 996/997.1 have these problems at some time in there life, but we have to keep fingers crossed it does happen to our pride & joy.
All cars have there faults in one .way or another but unfortunately this brand is very very exspensive to be put right by a specialist. (Its a shame Porsche dont pay some of the bill)
All i can say is thank god that there are specialists out there to keep these fantastic cars on the road.
Great video Raj.
Thank you Martin, you are right, all cars have a weakness or several! Luckily there is a healthy specialist network out there, as well as full parts support from Porsche for anything else. Thanks again for watching, Raj
This guy has real passion for cars
Thank you so much! Raj
Excellent summary, best regards from Hamburg, Germany
Many thanks! Raj
Excellent content and solid advice to existing and potential 997 owners.
Thank you Kevin, glad you enjoyed it! Cheers, Raj
Another great video with plenty of technical information on potential 997.1 issues.
Thanks Kevin, glad you found it useful! Raj
Great video. Summarizes what you could spend several hours reading about in forums, ask me how I know. I would add that some believe a bore scope from the spark plug chambers only tells half the story since it is at the top of the cylinder. Bore scoring supposedly starts at the bottom where the piston pivots the most on the rod, thus you’d see the initial signs of bore scoring with a more invasive inspection than you would just through the spark plug route, since higher up in the cylinder the piston is essentially moving straight forward and backward. Again....hours of reading on the forums.
The question becomes do you spend more for a 997.2 now and “almost” not have to worry about the bore scoring (because there HAVE been isolated instances of bore scoring on 997.2s) or save some money now and have the very real “potential” to have to spend money and have down time for a rebuild (which you could rebuild to a 4.0)?
Thank you so much, the forums are great for information from owners (and specialists too like Hartech), but it does take a huge amount of time to sift through all the information out there. I understand what you are saying about the marking starting below where you can see, I have been told similar by a Porsche mechanic. Thanks again, Raj
I changed my oil every 5k miles, changed the ims to a oil fed design, bore still scored and eventually blew the motor. Now I have a used motor with 50 k on it and it is slightly smoking, time bomb. Love the car, porsche should be ashamed of this terrible designed engine.
Thanks for the insights! Such a shame about your cars issues. I do wish Porsche as a company had come up with a plan to help owners like yourself, even after the warranty had expired. Cheers, Raj
Some details on your car would be appreciated, thanks.
It's not just porsche. BMW's affective too
Is it true this is more of a problem on the S models? I'm looking at a 997.1 Carrera 4. Going to get it inspected for bore scoring and I've read it's less on an issue on the 3.6
How many miles extra after knowing u had scoring till it died i have scoring on cylinder 6 just hoping it will last till i have paid some of the loan off
Don’t be put off the 997.1 completely, they are just insanely beautiful cars for a good price at the moment. I bought one 4 years ago and it still purrs. However, put a little money into checking the car before you buy. Get a good history but more importantly, pay for thorough bore scope examinations to identify any scoring. No scoring - no problem and just buy and enjoy a truly amazing car. Every car can have issues remember, you just do your best to check as much as you can to reduce the risk of problems.
Totally agree Steve with all your thoughts, well worth buying these cars with all the necessary checks and then enjoying them. I have noticed prices of the UK 997.1 models rising significantly over the last 6 months, just like 997.2 and Boxster/Cayman prices too! They are all great cars, just buy well! Cheers, Raj
Great video to watch, and very informative! Learnt such a lot. Thank-you!
Thanks TheMattprune, glad it was useful to watch. Cheers, Raj
Nice video keep them coming 👏🏽🤜🏽👊🏽
Thanks so much!
Thank you. Very clear and interesting presentation. After watching, my sense is that, with regard to the bore scoring issue in the 997.1, it's a serious design flaw with that iteration 991 - to the degree that you've decided to no longer handle/sell the 997.1. My take away here is not if, but when this happens to this model. Would you say that's a correct assessment? As someone just starting the process of looking into buying a used Porsche, you've presented a strong argument to steer clear of the 997.1. Well, unless the rebuild is something I'm comfortable with (and have factored that into the buying price, etc.). Subscribed!!
Thanks Matthew, for watching and also commenting. It is a tough situation to advise on. Personally I wouldn't say it will affect every car, but best to get any 997.1 checked out if you are contemplating! I'd personally own one, I just can't stand behind them from a business point of view, too much reputational and financial risk in dealing with these cars from my perspective. Other dealers are more than happy to either ignore the risks or simply price in the risk in their business model. Each to their own! All the best, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE Thank you!
Liked and subscribed. So much valuable information, clearly and concisely told. Thanks Raj!
Thank you Dave, totally unscripted like all my videos, so I am pleased I got things across clearly. I am sure I've missed bit but the message is hopefully clear. Cheers, Raj
The left tip blackening more than the right tip is a big tell tale sign. Plus you can actually see oil spitting out if scored. So if it's clear liquid spitting out then it's fine. Just condensation.
Thanks again Shaun, Raj
You should make a video on how you recommend putting together your vehicle file/service history documentation that looks impressive!
Thanks for the idea Dan, I will consider doing that for sure! Raj
Many thanks for your latest video Raj, Very informative! I want to own a 997 as my next second car but very nervous incase I get stung!
Thanks very much, it is a concern, basically get any car you want to buy thoroughly checked out, engine internals as well as the rest. Thanks! Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHEmany thanks Raj. if I do find myself in the position where I'm in the Market for a Porsche you'll be my first call.
@@superseven7947 it would be a pleasure to assist when you are ready! Thanks, Raj
Really good video, very detailed and in depth. I want to buy one to sit alongside my 981 but 'the fear' is winning that battle. Think it would be easier to stump up the cash in advance for gen 2.
Thanks for your compliments, it is definitely a shame about the issues, I think a lot of people would love to own one, but the fear is holding them back. Cheers, Raj
It would be interesting to see what lubricant owners of these cars are actually using in the engine. What oil change intervals are the most common, along with filter brand/type. There has to be a common denominator somewhere leading to the bore scoring issues. You has mentioned a better quality of lubricant would definitely benefit these engine. Perhaps that is the one key to longevity that needs to be considered. Thank you for the video from the other side of the pond!
No problem, happy to produce this video to discuss the issue and explore. I haven't found definitive reasons why, low/high mileage can be affected, driving behaviour short/long journey could be the crucial one, as well as climate and of course oil quality. Thanks
Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHEIt’s a combination multiple variables that can cause scoring. There are stages of scoring as well so let’s assume the engine is now in the final stage where high oil consumption and piston is slapping in the bore. In my experience I would put oil change intervals being too long on the top, then the inherent design flaws with the cylinder lining process Porsche utilized in these years, then climate, then maybe owner abuse (cold revving, high loads on a cold motor). I have many clients around 250k miles on original M96/M97 engines who have properly serviced them every year or a few thousand miles.
Grate video mate I took on a 977s4 just before Christmas and it's got all the symptoms and and iam going all the way I no iam going to improve the thing
Thanks Danns, sorry to hear, but hopefully it will be better with the repairs and give you many years of enjoyment as a results. Thanks, Raj
Ta Raj a new what I was getting involved with its the only way a guy like me can afford something of that level
My 2006 C4S triptronic has done 37000k. I've owned it for 10 years, done almost 10000 miles (mostly around London), and never had to top it up with oil. It doesn't smoke. I Haven't driven it enough the past 4 years due to having kids. But having watched and read so much about bore scoring I am left wondering why my car isn't showing symptoms yet. It seems that my car ticks the box for every identified metric for scoring. Yet it doesn't leave trails of blue smoke and/or make catastrophic knocking sounds of death! Am I living in denial, or am I the lucky one that proves the rule!
Hopefully a lucky one! They are out there. Cheers, Raj
Brilliant blog a good honest review.
Thanks Dave, appreciate the feedback. Raj
Very informative and helpful.
Thank you sir..
Thank you Virgil, appreciate the kind words and glad you found it useful. Cheers, Raj
Inspecting for bore scoring is more effective from the bottom of the pistons (through the sump) than the top (through the spark plug holes).
Totally agree, not as easy or quick though - when the car isn't yours it is more difficult to get approval and have the time/money to do. Raj
This is a really helpful video, thanks. I'm looking to get a 997.1 in the UK. I'll budget an extra £15k beyond what I play and then hopefully if (when) these issues arise I can get them sorted at the company you suggest. I just think they are too pretty to overlook
A perfect approach Onidax! They are stunning and actually the non DFI engines I find are more responsive on a drive, especially with the manual box of course! Cheers, Raj
Do more 997.1 content too please 😎 Show people they aren't machines to be feared!
I am thinking of buying one for my pure personal use, and documenting it. Someday! Cheers, Raj
Great vid Raj
Thanks Mark
What a very informative video, thank you
Thanks Philip! All the best, Raj
Interesting vid, I have been digging in to this issue for quite some time. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest it happens more in cold climates, there are also some stories of it happening on the normally aspirated v8 cayenne. It doesn't seem to happen on the turbo version but that has jets that aim oil at the piston skirts. It doesn't only happen on poorly serviced cars but would seem to be a combination of factors - the fact that it starts on one bank seems to be a pretty big clue. The cylinder lining is surely a big part of the story but not the whole story. I suspect the debate will rage on but getting definitive figures as to how many vehicles of each year have been affected may never be possible.
Thanks BostonBikeBits, really appreciate your insights too. Unfortunately, as you say, there is no definitive cause, or analysis across the whole production run to explain/understand the issues. It does seem to be a more prevalent issue in countries with at least a cold winter climate (below 5-10 degree Celcius). The other big problem is Porsche globally haven't admitted any issue, but they do now provide 'short-block' kits to rebuild an affected engine, albeit with the same liners and technology - so this isn't a guarantee that the issues won't reoccur in the future. Thanks again, Raj
Bought mine 2008 Targa 4S cheap as per full rebuild engine repair bills with new improved parts. Hope it will last another 50,000 miles.
Should last much longer with a full rebuild hopefully! Cheers, Raj
Precise information here
Thanks, glad it is well received
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE absolutely
Reason why I have wait few years to save enough to buy a 997.2
Hi AP, It will be worth the wait! Cheers, Raj
Hello Mr sportscar,
This problem doesnt include the 997.1/997.2 turbo and 997 gt3 while these have completly different engines? Mezger 3.6L
That is correct Kai, the Turbo, GT2 and GT3 engines are totally different and do not suffer these issues, the Mezger engine is a totally different engine. Thanks, Raj
Excellent video 👍
Thanks so much Jon. I filmed this a while ago but all the advice is still what I would say now, moreso even with more specialists telling me the same things that were on the fence a couple of years ago. Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE absolutely. Still so relevant with the demand of 997s. I've just bought one one with a Hartech rebuild 8k miles ago... hopefully this will add value for years to come.
Just asking some advice about a fairly tough choice whenever I got factually involved in buying a used 997: in essence I'd like better picking up a high mileage and also neglected specimen at around € 24.000,00 rather than
an apparently well mantained car, with good service history showing 180.000 Km on the odo at € 40.000,00 - My thought is...Nontheless I will exactly know the condition my car actually is running after such a pretty extensive mechanic check-up and following restoration.Glad to read your advices and standpoints on this matter.
Everything is fixable on these cars or replaceable so there is merit in buying a car that needs work for a lot less. However, provenance of previous history and specification plus originality will always make some worth more than others. Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE Thanks !
Great informative vid. In your experience did you find the same common issue on cayman 987.1 base? I know it was on the cayman S, but I’ve heard the base model was far less due to the fact it was a different engine
Thanks Parvin, I haven't had much experience of base model Caymans, but I have also read and been told the same by a number of Porsche mechanics over the years. Thanks, Raj
As soon as I purchased a 2005 Carrera S I replaced the Mobil 1 oil with Amsoil. I had a 73 911 S previously. The independent oil engineering tests I've seen Mobil 1 isn't nearly as good as Amsoil and several other high dollar synthetics. Hate mail headed my way I'm sure.
Thanks Tom for the insight! I know some recommend Millers oils too. Raj
Have you seen many of the 3.6L with the bore scoring issue?
Less common issue on the smaller engine but yes I have seen some engines awaiting rebuild at workshops
I enjoyed watching as an owner of a 997 2 s ..., oil is the key to these engines along with having a slightly sympathetic approach to warm up and maintaining the car correctly . Don’t put off by a gen 1 for every one with this issue there are hundreds without it you should buy one in the knowledge this wasn’t an ordinary car, don’t think it’s a cheap car to run it isn’t, buy a good one from a reputable dealer with a warranty treat it good and you can do no more. raj is talking from a dealers view he’s not prepared to take any risks on selling a car which may develop a problem and who could blame him, to put things in perspective my friend just paid nearly £6000 for a gearbox on a Mercedes.
Hi Jack, I totally agree with your sentiments and thanks for clarifying my stance too. Not every 997 will have an issue, even those that do aren't doomed either, like you said I just don't want to have my customers suffer after buying a Porsche from me, so I have decided to step away from selling them. I think they are fantastic to own when either 100% healthy from factory or rebuilt. Also your point about huge repair costs on other marques is valid, Porsche are not the only cars that need repairs along the way! Cheers, Raj
It’s easy to see your an honourable person raj, I too if we’re a Porsche specialist wouldn’t want any of my customers to be anything but totally satisfied with their purchase,
Very informative RaJ, I am looking for a 997.1 right now and this is great info before buying my dream 911. Also, what about the 2007-2008 years, is this mostly in the 2006 early years when the IMS wasn't really updated like the late 2006-2008 engines?
Thank you Leonard, this issue is unfortunately separate to the IMS problems these 997.1 and 996 engines suffer... So be vigilant with 2006-2008 cars as well. Cheers, Raj
Great video. I have a Cayman S with no scoring (yet). If It happens (or IMS) I'd contemplate a 997 Turbo engine swap into the Cayman but of course I'd want to know that's a solid engine as well. Does rebuilding with new sleeves mean it will never ever re-occur?
Thanks for the comments and an engine swap is quite popular now, although the 997 Turbo route would be complex and amazing at the same time. The new sleeves should be either steel or lined differently from original, to prevent the issue re-occuring. Cheers, Raj
Hi
Your videos are always really balanced and detailed without being too technical. I’m thinking of getting my first Porsche and am looking at 997.1 cabriolet tiptronics. If it were you would you wait longer and save up for a gen 2? Or is a clear PPI with bore scope that doesn’t show any issues worth pursuing? Also I’ve seen different opinions on new/old and high mileage vs low. What are your thoughts here?
Thanks in advance!!
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE if you get any through let me know I’d rather buy from you!
Great video.Thank you
Thanks Carrera Porsche for the compliment. Raj
Put ZX1 in the oil and add it to fuel every 1k miles and you'll never get bore scoring. The 2006 onwards don't have the IMS issue as they have the updated, stronger IMS.
Thanks Shaun, yes thicker oils can help for sure. Also the later IMS are better, but not 100% fault free from my experience, much rarer they fail so worth though! Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE it’s just so disappointing that these issues even exist in the 996/7. In a 911 of which we all know and love for being such an iconic, legendary super sports car reknowned for it’s unique aesthetics and bomb proof build quality and reliablility. I don’t understand why Porsche didn’t just implement an oil-fed IMS (like the one featured in the Porsche 996 Carrera Cabrio Wheeler Dealers episode) in the early 996’s onwards when the issue was first identified. It could/would have saved Porsche so much money and so many headaches! Same goes for implementing DFI into the flat six engines much sooner from the 996.2 model onwards. Baffling at how poorly damage limitation and addressing both issues took so long!
I feel lucky that I found a “new car” mileage late 2006 Carrera 2S. With the miles only being mid-20k’s the car was still being run in so I ensured I ran it it correctly up to around 45k miles. I know your opinion on ZX1 but I do believe it helps quite significantly with friction reduction/elimination as I ran one of the very first M96 engines in a 2.5 986 (it was from the first ever RHD assembly line in Stuttgart!) all the way up to 248,000+ miles with zero issues whatsoever. Especially with cylinder, piston, cam lobe and crankshaft component wear. Which astonished me. (As I stated previously, I am in no way affiliated to any automotive products! I wish I was! Would be a nice little side income! Lol! But I’d hate to be a slimey sell out! Just amazed by the great health of the engine at thise miles and I drove the shit out of it over the years haha!) The 2.5L 986 car is still running strongly now actually as I gifted it to my closest friends (my 2nd parents lol) who lost their 19 year old son who was like a little brother to me back in 2014. The father was always going to get a 997 but after his son passed after the motorcycle accident where a tractor just pulled out without bothering to check for traffic. Didn’t even slow, just straight out.
Thanks for the highly informative and very educational videos providing essential and very important knowledge on these engines as you’ll be saving people alot of future misery.
Excellent informative video 👍🏻
Thank you! Really appreciate the feedback, it is a tricky subject to bring up and this was unscripted so I’m glad it has been well received. Cheers, Raj
M R SPORTSCARS PORSCHE SPECIALIST
If had a 996 3.4 for just over two years it’s been 100% reliable .I’m thinking of trading it in for something newer however , it can’t last forever 👍🏻
The 3.4 is a sweet engine in the 996. Glad it’s been a good 2 years of ownership. Cheers, Raj
I really enjoyed your videos and certainly learned a lot from you as I am looking for a Porsche as my weekend 2nd car. I have not decided which to get and all the information by out by you have been most helpful in my search. Keep up the good work. Cheers!
Thanks Tata Engine! Really lovely to hear and a Porsche would make an excellent weekend car, just make sure you use it regularly, the more you drive them the better they behave from my experience. Thanks again, Raj
997.1 3.8 2007, 127 K km, bought it with 75 K km, being scared from IMS and BS reports from other owners at 100 K km I let my engine dismantled. Everything correct but built chambers in oil pan though. Change Mobile 1 on a year basis, 0.4 L consumption per 1K km and brutal gas pedal response.
Enjoy it and thanks for sharing the first hand experiences! Raj
Specialist I bought my 997.1 said they had approx 1000 cars through the door and had seen this issue once...it hasn't blown up yet
Hi Edward, that hasn't been my personal experience unfortunately, nor 3 Porsche Specialist mechanic workshops I deal with on a regular basis. I have seen low mileage and high mileage well cared for cars suffer the internal scoring. There are of course cars that have no issues and will never have issues. Thanks, Raj
Buy a base Cayman 2.7. No IMS issues (post 2008) or bore score issues.
Yes that’s what I’ve heard too! Cheers, Raj
Beautiful car, congrats!
Thanks YT! Raj
Great vid raj
Thank you Guy! Really appreciate you watching as always. Raj
For some reason the 996 3.6 motor does not appear to suffer bore scoring as much as the 997 gen1.
Hi Robin, I have seen this too. Cheers, Raj
I just think Porsche were short of money when they came out with the 986/987 and just pushed the base engine may be a bit too far. Boxster/Cayman non S seems to be fine. One up on the Hartech. I live in Hertfordshire and drove up Norf to get an inspection done on my Boxster, bought it from an OPC so I had a two year warranty. Really knowledge guy at Hartech generally and especially regarding IMS/RMS, cracked cylinder liners & bore scoring...
Thanks! Yes I agree that Hartech chaps really do know their stuff and worth reading up on and using if a car needs a rebuild, even if its just to use their parts. Thanks, Raj
What about a 997.2 base Carrera 3.6? I heard those are the least to get bore scores. Any other big issues with them? They seem to be the safest of the generation overall from everything I’ve read, I’ve really been wanting a nice 997 in the coming months! Great video thanks 👊🍻
Hi Steven, no real major issues with the 997.2 Carrera 3.6, as with any Porsche purchase, buy with checking over properly and you'll get a good sports car! Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE awesome man I’m definitely going to check one out soon! Thanks for the reply! 👊🍻
Do Porsche provide better head & piston assembly for bore scoring or they continue selling the previous version of them , that caused bore scoring ...?
Thanks for the video
Thanks Vicky, sadly the Porsche replacement is the same as the original, so no guarantees the issues won't resurface in time. Unfortunately they never admitted there is an issue. Cheers, Raj
Raj, good video, I have seen a RUclips video mentioning bore scoring in 997.2 DFI engines, this seems rare, , so I wonder If there are possible future issues or not, any thoughts on this ? I guess any engine can suffer bore scoring as there are many reasons for this type of failure.
Thanks for your comments. I personally haven't come across these issues on any 997.2 I have come across, so I can't really add any comment, other than speculation. I think you are right, any engine can suffer issues for a number of reasons, overheating suddenly (coolant pipe failure etc), lack of use, poor/low oil for prolonged period of time, or simply misuse/abuse by a driver on a cold engine. Also given there were tens of thousands built, the odd one may have manufacturing defects. Hope this helps! Sorry I can't add any real personal insights. Cheers, Raj
I believe that the 997 Gen 1 are the last of the analogue steering models , then Gen 2 have electric assist steering rack ? Also bore scouring is mainly found on the 3.8 not the 3.6 models ? Watch 997 Dad epic 3.8 rebuild Vlog .
Incorrect I’m afraid. The 997.2 had the same steering technology as 997.1, a hydraulic setup. It was the 2012 991 series that introduced the electric steering setup. 997.1 3.6 can also suffer bore scoring, but anecdotally more 3.8s have been rebuilt. No one has exact numbers unfortunately.
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE So both the 997's were the last hydraulic power steering , better feel to the steering ? Do you think the 997 models will hold value same as the 993"s have ?
@@Human2Ai2030 Hi, I am so sorry for the delay in responding, I didn't get a notification. The 997s were the last of the better steering feel cars, I actually prefer the 996 steering even more though! I think the 997.2 and 997.1 are starting to appreciate quite strongly, a lot of buyers out there for good examples, despite the economic climate. Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE You don't have to apologise, no problem and thanks for all the info Raj .
997.2 are not free of bore scoring but the numbers aren't anywhere as high as with M96/97 engines as found in 996 and 997.1 cars
Thanks spyoptions for the insight. I know there have been a low number of gen 2 cars suffering. I'd rather sell the gen 2 cars as a result. Cheers, Raj
I wonder whether is there a way to prevent such a rather common issue.I mean how to keep that from happening on a, let's say,high mileage engine which apparently is still working properly.
That could be way cheaper than facing the damage once it comes about.
In essence,is it possible to prevent the difference in lubrification and cooling amongst the cylinders in order to avoid the friction between the piston and the cylinders bore wall ? What's the mod to be done in advance besides taking care of a proper maintainance and use (warm up and oil changes) ?
Thanks a lot for any info.
There are recommended oils and installing a low temperature thermostat is advised in terms of prevention. Thanks, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE Thanks for your answer !
Great video, it needs to be said unfortunately. I've had 2 and both had bore score the first one a 06 C2S at 24,000 miles which I was lucky to get my money back on as it happened just after picking it up, it literally started belching out smoke a week after I got it. The second 07 C4S many years later which I bought from a reputable specialist UK Porsche dealer who assured me it was bore score free, but it wasn't as I got a bore score done after I collected it just to be sure. I got my money back on both (after a bit of arguing) but others won't have been so lucky. I still love them though perversely as they are wonderful cars and the sound from the gen 1 is just beautiful. Moral of the story is get an inspection but even then the nagging doubt may still be there..
Thanks Alex, appreciate the insights from a twice owner. I am sorry to hear of your experiences, it must really put a dampener on Porsche ownership! As you say, the last thing you want to do is have a nagging doubt in the back of your mind even if a car is all clear. I totally agree actually about your point, the sound of the gen 1 engine, plus also how they respond at low revs vs the gen 2 cars is exceptional. Thanks again, Raj
In my understanding bank one hardly ever fails so why bother to rebuild it?
Bank two has the thrust side of the piston at the top of the bore and people don't understand how to drive these cars and let the revs drop below say 2K where the oil pressure starts to drop and the water pump is too slow to properly circulate the coolant.
Hi Andrew, Thanks for your message and observations. I agree about Bank 1 being less likely to fail, however from engine rebuilders I know they have seen examples of bank 1 starting to show issues when bank 2 is quite badly affected. As a seller of these cars I would now not risk any issues so would rather just supply fully rebuilt cars or not supply them at all. They are great Porsche, but I can't risk my business and reputation on them. Thanks, Raj
You always want to do a full build so the engine is properly balanced and power is equal. Doing half the rebuild just means you'll have to do another rebuild again.
Thank you for the video. My dream car is a 911.997 Carerra S in manual.
Something to look for is def these issues. Would it be better to take a normal Carrera with the 3.6?
Hi Daniel, the 997.1 Carrera S manuals are incredible to drive and look great too, just make sure to get the engine thoroughly checked out. There is indications that that manual 3.6 cars are least likely to suffer, but again worth just spending $100-$200 on a borescope inspection prior to purchase to be sure. Thanks, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE Yes, they are something very special and at a good price now. In Denmark you can get these with registration used for around 80-100.000 USD now.
That is good advice. I think it would be wise to have a borescope inspection, and also ask them to look at the IMS.
Thanks!
very informative 👍
Thanks Mick
Hi, does the 3.6 in the 997 carrera 4 also suffer the same issues?
Hi Jimmy, yes the 3.6 can also suffer the same issues unfortunately, although some believe the damage is less prevalent in the smaller engine. Still worth checking internally before purchase nonetheless. Thanks, Raj
This is a major problem. The best way to go is to send it to Flat 6 Innovations. They rebuild them with Nikosil cylinders.
Thanks, it does seem to be becoming more common from what I hear from other specialists who do sell them still... Hartech in the UK are good too! Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE You could be right on that Raj. I think the major points to hit are using nikosil for the cylinders, using left and right sided pistons, and an IMS solution and not just a new bearing with no additional lubrication. Just rebuilding like the original may not solve any issues. I have a 997 F6I 4.0 liter and absolutely love it. Was originally bore scored to hell and back drinking oil like crazy. Now is a 4 second car with just a puff of oil on startup. Jake did amazing work but is in the US obviously. Am sure Hartech is good too.
Do these problems happen to a 997 Series 1 Turbo? The turbo shoes not have an IMS.
These problems do not occur in the 911 Turbo models, you are correct. Thanks, Raj
Good video Raj. Have you had any experience with 997.1 having bore scoring or Ims issues ,after having an engine rebuild. Thanks
Hi Salgiant, I haven't had personal experience of either post rebuild, but then I also don't deal in a huge number of these cars now, so few come up that have had a full rebuild. In all honesty, if you have a rebuilt one, and have paid for it, it is well worth hanging onto. Like any work, the rebuild should have been done by a reputable specialist, with high quality parts. If the rebuild has been done incorrectly, or with poor parts then it could lead to another failure.... Make sure you see the invoice and do some digging on how the car drives/sounds/starts, even if it has been rebuilt. Thanks, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE great advise Raj. Many thanks
Great review. I have a 2016 981 base. Any known problem?
Thanks Wilson, no major issues that I know of! Cheers, Raj
Great video Raj, thank you very much for the information. This just made up my mind not to purchase The 997.1.
Thanks Nelson, Sorry if it has put you off completely, but hopefully it will lead to you buying a better Porsche in the long run. Raj
Im not an expert on bore scoring, I have used my 2005 997.1 3.8 unopened engine as a rolling test laboratory the last 6 years, installed the third radiator and Low.temp. thermostat when i bought the car in 2015 with 62000 miles on the clock, i have since abused the car hard on track and on the german autobahn, my OCI at 6000 miles and i ALLWAYS stay under 4000 rpm. until i get full oil temp. (10 minutes) the car have now passed 105000 miles, i have done oil analysis at every oil change, almost no wear metals, and consistent readings across the board, aluminium have stayed low at 2 to 3 PPM . I have never used Mobil 1 0W-40, i use a 5W-40 A40 oil, but will not glorify wich brand i use, since oil is religion.... Just checked the cylinders for scoring, Spotless on all 6, when or IF the day comes that the engine says goodbye, i have savings ready, and i have opted for the Hartech rebuild Experiment continues !
Thanks Ecolyn! What a fascinating and useful experiment. A great way to approach the issues. Also out of interest, when you start up the car, do you drive off immediately, wait a set time or wait until the idle settles under 900 rpm? Thanks again, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE yes, i just wait 15 to 30 seconds, and just roll in a normal gentle manner
What's your opinion of the 997.1 base Carreras? Same issues? Heard somewhere they're less prone to bore scoring...
It seems to be widely reported that the 3.8s does suffer more, particularly the Tiptronic. However, there have been failures in all variants, so very tough to judge. Cheers, Raj
Just found a 2008 carrera S with 5444 miles very low mileage kept immaculate. Buying from Porsche dealer in New York after watching your video I’m very concerned about purchasing what do you think.
Thanks Gennaro, may be worth getting it checked out independently? Does it come with the 2-year Porsche main dealer warranty. Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE will check with dealer about warranty they said vehicle went through there inspection and was perfect mechanically
So let me get this straight.. Porsche who USED to use Nikasil, can’t use Nikasil any longer but Hartech can?
They changed up and sadly the new coating wasn't up to scratch! Cheers, Raj
Thanks for that, are 987 2.7 Boxster as prone to this?
From experience they seem to suffer less than larger capacity models
This mainly applies to pre 2009 models correct?
I would say so, all non DFI engined 996 and 997.1 Carrera based models. This does not apply to Mezger engines, GT3, GT2 and 911 Turbo. Thanks, Raj
Hie, does the 997.2 have the same bore score problems? Are there any differens in 3.6 and the 3.8 on the issues? 997.1 and the 997.2. Thanks
Hi Jan-Erik, the 997.2 don't suffer the issues, there are a couple of rare cases of replacement engines/rebuilds but not to the same prevalence as 997.1. The 3.8 997.1 do seem to be more common for requiring rebuilds, but the 3.6 do also suffer. Thanks, Raj
Thank you so much for your answer. Best Regards Jan-Erik
2:28 starts rubbing the rear spoiler profusely.
I would too
cheeky! thanks, Raj
Does this happen on a 2010 Porsche 4S 997.2 with Auto Transmission? Thx
Hi Andy, it shouldn't do, the 997.2 have a different engine that does not suffer these issues (except in exceptionally rare cases where poor maintenance/misuse is the cause). Thanks, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE Hello Raj, I was wondering about cold weather starts, should you start the car and drive off or let the engine reach idle speed? Thx
How long does it take to remove the spark plugs for 4,5,6?
Not long, less than an hour to check all 3 with a cold engine ideally. Cheers, Raj
Buy a 997.1 turbo and be fast and happy with no mentioned problem 👍🏼
Yes the Mezger is a gem! Raj
I’ll get a gt350 ! As bad as I hate to say that, I just don’t want to dump 15k in a rebuild!
Yes I can relate, no one wants to! Cheers, Raj
Hi mate i recently bought a 997 gen1 from a Porsche specialist they told me it had scoring on cylinder 6 but it was fine it isn’t going to brake down any time soon so I trusted what they said and got it now it dosent smoke excessively its seems fine both exhaust tips are black so i am hoping it will last a wile till it gives up but i feel like they have done me over really , i still have 2 months of warranty left but if it doesn’t blow in the next 2 months then i will just have pray it last a year or 2 the car has done 115k and has one scored so i just hope it can do another 100k till the next one starts to score, in your experience have you known anybody who had the same issue as me and how many miles did they get till the next cylinder started to score till the engine died ?
Hi Daz, I am so sorry to hear this, takes away from the positive vibes of owning one of these Porsche 911s I'm sure. If it has lasted to 115,000 miles then it should be good for many more miles before getting to the stage of using a lot of oil, getting very noisy and then requiring a rebuild. These engines don't normally 'blow' even with borescoring, so try not to worry too much, especially if it isn't overly smokey or drinking oil. I came across a 2006 Cayman S that was using 5litres of oil per 1,000 miles! That was still running okay but clearly that wasn't normal oil use. Try and enjoy the 911, it is still a great Porsche. Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE thanks for that saying that mate has given me a bit more confidence so can hopefully pay off some of my loan before i have to get a rebuild i love the car and dont want to get rid of it because i cant afford a rebuild .no it doesn’t smoke the engine sounds normal i asked my Porsche specialist to have a listen he said sounds fine like you ,said keep an eye on the oil and dont worry thanks again for replying love your videos
If your warranty hasn't expired yet you may be able to extend that warranty. If you have positive equity you could also trade it in towards a newer model for added peace of mind.
Any comments on bore scoring for 996 and 997.1 Turbos?
Thanks Track_Star, I've witnessed no scoring with either 996 or 997.1 Turbo 911s, provided they have been serviced and not abused. They are a totally different block with different cylinder lining tech. Cheers, Raj
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE Thanks so much for the feedback
Porsche gave the idea of boxer engines to Subaru. I think they should get some advice from Subaru engineers on how to lubricate their engines properly. Serious, but joking at same time
Well said! Cheers AT Rufus, Raj
I know my Subarus as own an STi. Thought the EJ motors had issues until I've been researching the 996/997 platform. All these issues with the IMS, bore scoring and nobody on here is talking about the worst engineering flaw on the Porsches including turbo models...the coolant manifold having 8 coolant pipes glued that IMO is a ticking time bomb 💣💨
I noticed how many times you used the word “essentially “ in the first 5 minutes of the video 😅, essentially it’s a good advice though
Thanks Godspeed63! I do use it a lot! Cheers, Raj
Give me some numbers on how many have bore scoring failure? It’s like as I watch this again you give the impression they will all have and fail at some point.
As I said in the video, no one knows. I just know that all of the engine rebuilders have 30-40 engines awaiting rebuild in my area of the UK alone!
@@MRSPORTSCARSPORSCHE man thats a real bummer! I really want a 997.1 but think if you spend 40k on one and you end up with a rebuild it just not worth it. defenitley getting a scope and rev report..
Hi I am 997.1 owner. There is considerable interest and concern in this matter. I can't recognize it because it's English. If it doesn't excuse me, can you receive only the points of your video content as a text file?
Thanks, sorry but I don’t have a text file of my talking unfortunately, it was unscripted! Thanks, Raj