Is it worth breaking axles for 690 POE?
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- Опубликовано: 9 ноя 2023
- 690 engagement points and an amazing sound are tradeoffs for poor bearing life and broken axles. We now know the Industry 9 Hydra’s unique design suffers these issues. So what can you do about it?
We appreciate the feedback and thorough evaluation of our Hydra hubs. We made a running change to our axles to eliminate the stress riser at the bearing journal adjacent to the FH body as was noted in the video. We have been using these updated axles in our service department for over a year and once we confirmed this had corrected the issue, we made the running change to all production hubs in June. We have not had a single failure we are aware of to date with the updated design.
Is that the "stress riser washer kit" axle which is available? Great to hear that it's corrected the issue as the Hydra is such a unique hub with incredible features. ~Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels - Yes, we've been shipping the updated axle in new builds since June, and have been offering it exclusively as the warranty replacement prior to the BOM change. It's also available from our webstore for any riders that would like to fit the updated axle to their hubs.
@@industrynine3931 wouldn't be beneficial to have a cromoly & titanium version of the axle instead of an aluminum alloy?
In the video he shows the new design from Mid 2022 as still being flawed. So just to be clear the "stress riser washer kit" axle is different than this mid 2022 design and has only been in production units since June 2023?
The same problem is also from Torch. I have destroyed the second freewheel in which my bearings broke completely. I paid 500€ for the hub and then changed the freewheel 2 times which each cost 250€. So I paid 1000€ for this super hub and in the end I threw it in the trash and bought a reliable DT Swiss.
Thank you for posting this. I am also a wheel builder and have gotten some strange looks when discussing this with clients. I appreciate the improvements to the axle design and I’ve also noticed a significant improvement in bearing smoothness on the hubs I’ve received this season. I understand why people like these hubs and it’s nice to see i9 attempting to address the weak points of the design. As for me, I own 4 bikes, all have DT 240 or 350 hubs.
Nice to see this issue being publicized a bit instead of pretending this isn't happening. I've run into this problem several times and have a few points to add:
1. This also happens to 1/1 hubs even though they don't have engineered pawl flex. I've broken 3 1/1 axles, they always break at the same stress riser spot.
2. Do not count on your hub to start creaking if it is breaking/broken. Inspect the axle when you do regular services! You'll see stress fractures forming in this area before it fully breaks. The first time my axle failed (I didn't yet know it was possible), I got no indication anything was wrong until my wheel axle failed as well (because the hub axle had already broken) causing my rear wheel to jam and lock up. Had a big crash as a result.
3. At least for the 1/1 which is not supposed to flex, the steel 'forever' axle from Pinner has been a great solution for me. Wheel/axle interface is noticeably stiffer and at least so far appears to be holding up well.
I will say that I9 always got me a new axle quickly whenever I had this issue, but it just became too big of a liability worrying about when it might (will) fail next. Also for some reason you can't buy the 1/1 axles off the shelf so it was impossible to keep a spare in my toolbox.
Was going to share the same outcome with 1/1 hubs. Broken axle, very short bearing lifespans. And, I could "press" the bearings in with one finger (even on the second warranty-replaced hub). I'd like to trust I9 because on paper they are a fairly competitive hub, but the maintenance and reliability issues sent me away.
I’ve had my hydra hub since launch, still works great. I do my own bike maintenance.
As an owner of the Hydra hubs, thank you for this video and lessons learned. The real issue is anything mechanical has a failure point. And any good manufacture can learn from and make the necessary design changes as noted by Industry Nine in the feed.
As an admitted DT Swiss fanboy who once strayed to the allure of shiny, loud things made by I9, only to be immediately regretful, I watch this video with a smile on my face and a slow engaging 36T ratchet hub that is utterly bomb proof attached to my bike.
My grin goes from ear to ear. But hey, im sure its covered under wArRaNtY.
I do like the 240s for simplicity and weight, but I do enjoy engagement and switched to onyx and take the weight penalty! Bomber, hubs, and absolutely instantaneous engagement!
I used to run a Chris King, and did love the beehive buzz, but since then have been a onyx fan, a little bit of a weight penalty in the very center. Of my wheel, but the engagement is well worth it! Plus all the bling, or any bling you want! What do you guys think of the new rope spokes? I’m thinking my next bill will be a onyx Hub., With bird spokes. Because they have a Hub made for those spokes now.
The 54t ratchet is pretty nice, and still quite bombproof.
The ratchet ring system also has the advantage of all teeth engaging at the same time so the connection feels super solid when it hooks up. I say this an a i9 torch owner but I definitely love the feeling of the dt hubs when I ride friends bikes
I'm a trials rider using Hydra hubs on all my bikes from comp trials, street trials, MTB and E-Bike.
I must admit when the hubs first came out I was reluctant to try them as trials depends on strong engagements and often the more engagements you have the less reliable they get. I did eventually dive in and get a set and I haven't had any issues yet. My oldest pair are on my street trials bike and are 3 years old I think, still on the same bearings, same internals and same lube/grease from the factory. In fact, the bearing life has impressed me as I've had issues with bearings on Hope hubs in the past.
My MTB and E-bike wheels are only 6 months old but they're still perfect too with no skips on any of my hubs either.
That's really interesting. As I said in the vid we see much better service life on hardtails so I'm wondering if the super stiff back end of a trails bike really helps these hubs? -Tristan
The HT thing could be a thing, also note that his Trials rear end isn't 148, it's 135/142 and uses a bolt in axle, not slide through/TA like most use, so yes, much stiffer. Thanks for chiming in Ali, but you forgot to mention one critical bit of info, that you're sponsored by Industry Nine, so yeah, um.....
@@hardtruth603 almost right, it is 135mm but it’s also a 12mm thru axle. My MTB I use for trials as well as trails is 142mm too but I haven’t had that as long.
And yeah I get free product from I9 but I always like to be honest and I wouldn’t be scared of saying if I’d had any issues. I was getting free products from them back when the Torch was the top model, they offered me the Hydra when it first came out but I refused as I simply didn’t trust that many engagements for trials and I went and used Chris King hubs for two years while others put the Hydra to the test. Once I was satisfied it could work for trials (Danny Mac had been using one with no issues) I was happy to start using them myself…I only ever use products I am genuinely pleased with as I’m too much of a perfectionist and gear geek to accept products that don’t work how I want them to
Similar experience here. No longer into trials, but I value the fast engagement. No failures here on a RM Slayer.
Servicing is just too easy in these things!
you must be very light
Fantastic video. I’ve snapped 2 axles already and wasn’t sure what’s going on. Good to understand the detail behind the design and it’s pros and cons. I still love my I9 Hydras, but I now have the information to maintain them better than before. Thank you!
Glad it helped! Have you been using the "stress riser washer kit" axles? industrynine.com/parts/axles
-Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels I don't think so but I will start when they need replacing.
you still love them? 3 comments above the guy says "Do not count on your hub to start creaking if it is breaking/broken. Inspect the axle when you do regular services! You'll see stress fractures forming in this area before it fully breaks. The first time my axle failed (I didn't yet know it was possible), I got no indication anything was wrong until my wheel axle failed as well (because the hub axle had already broken) causing my rear wheel to jam and lock up. Had a big crash as a result."
Great video, thanks for posting. When these came out I was sceptical, no one's done a good hub with single pawl engagement before for good reason, also was never really impressed with their previous hubs, always found bearing life not good if you lived someplace where if you didn't ride when it rained, life was short lived. I'll stick to my Hope hubs thanks, can get a complete set for less than you'd pay for a rear i9 or CK and they've lasted me really long, Hope supports their products way down the line too.
I have i9 101 hubs. Think they’re a great balance between cost, engagement, and reliability. No issues so far after over a year of use. This is a really interesting vid, I didn’t realize these hydra hubs only engaged 1 pawl at a time.
Great info, thanks for sharing.
A sleeve of some sort was my first thought too in this case, an interesting take :-).
Contacted I9 about the updated axle since I was replacing all the bearings and they sent me the axle and kit no questions asked. First time on Hydra and I’m liking it, but I also have a wheel set with Onyx so it’s not that much difference in the engagement. I have had the pawl hang up a little… my wheel set is $1800 Ibis carbon so no complaints. I prefer instant engagement because of the trails I ride it helps a lot and I’m disabled and getting older and need all the help I can get, but that doesn’t mean I’ll get an e-bike. Thanks for the video!
Bearings were my big issue when I had the Hydras on my Ripley. I would go through 2-3 sets per year. I have never had that on any other hub over the past 19 years. I do climb about 200k per year and about 1700-2000 miles, all on dirt in Utah. Hadley hubs are really good but Kings are my favorite. The new Hope Pro 5's also look interesting.
What I've observed over the years but never quantified is the impact that the frame has on hub bearing life. Most frames are reasonably flexy and reasonably misaligned (hey, nothing can be manufactured perfectly) and the specific flex pattern of a frame can affect Hub A more than Hub B, even if both of those hubs display similar bearing life on different frames. Maybe your Ripley frame was just a poor match for the Hydra? -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels cool that makes sense.
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels yep, this. Even something like riding style - for example, if you lean the bike more and your body less in a turn vs. always keeping your weight in the plane of the seatpost - can drastically impact the forces on your BB, which transfer to both axles and hubs.
Stoked you guys made a video on this. Curious if you’ve seen the aftermarket steel axle from pinner machine shop. I broke 3 hydra axles in the first year or so of having it but ever since installing that thing the hubs been problem free for months. Theres been no problems with the pockets wearing either, I guess like you said since steel has more flex.
Wow, I respect you guys for pointing out a flaw from a company without simply bashing them for no reason.
🙏
They were a bit too kind IMO. I9 designed a defective product, its fair to call them out on it.
Brings to mind a terrifying experience from many years ago when sealed bearing hubs were becoming a "Thing", Phil Wood, etc making them. In a race, I won a set of sealed bearing hubs by a manufacturer I'd never heard of (and can't remember) and built them up as wheels for training. All was well until some weeks later I was in a practice race at the Rose Bowl in Pasadena. Had just begun a stint at the front, and as I folded the bike into the first 90 deg right turn at the bottom of the course, one of the rear wheel hub flanges exploded, and the rim and tire moved over and locked up against the chain stays. I couldn't turn and shot straight across the intersection, fortunately no cross traffic, tire wore down to the casing at the one spot but did not blow. All the other riders made the turn no problem, thankfully.
Examination revealed that whole chunks of the flange had torn loose, and fatigue cracks emanated from other spoke holes in that flange, the other rear flange, and both flanges of the front wheel as well. The flanges were much thicker than those of the Campy hubs I was used to, making me wonder if they were cast aluminum rather than forged?
Before someone informs me I overtightened the spokes, I'll point out that I never saw this problem (or any other) with wheels I built using Campy or Phil Wood hubs. And the reason I was building my own wheels was that I was racing on a very limited budget.
That sounds like the glory days of CNC components! Apparently a slowdown in the aerospace industry left a bunch of CNC machines with excess capacity so up sprouted a bunch of companies CNCing *everything* and anodising it purple -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels Really wish I had a photo of it. don't recall that the exterior looked smooth as I would expect (?) from machining, not anodized. We're talking early 1970's, dark ages.
No issues with my I9 but I've only had them since March. I was aware of the axle issue from MTBR forums. I think I'll just get extra axles and bearings, I like the hubs and engagement too much to worry about having a few more parts to worry about. Back around 2008, I actually had a pawl go through a Campagnolo Record 10s hub and jam in the middle of a hundred mile hilly ride, that was a real pain! Might be the only DNF for an event I ever had. I have it in a box somewhere, might need to get that out and make a desk ornament out of it. Thanks for the info, I'll take all of this advice to heart.
Perfectly timed video, thank you! This triggered some research and looks like I will be getting a steel "forever axle" by a company in Whistler. Easier to replace a freehub body out on a bike trip instead of finding and replacing axle/bearings.
Been beating the shit out of one of those for the later half of this season and its held up to hundreds of miles of riding and almost 20 days in the park, highly recommend
What is the steel axle companies response to the idea that the axle must flex? Does the steel axle flex in the same way as the aluminum? Is it not an issue?
@@SpokesmanMTB It should be able to flex enough for the pawl to engage otherwise the product wouldn't work or exist. They are called "Pinner Machine Shop"
I agree with this. My experience though was the cheapest component didn’t fail. The freehub spur ring developed cracks and the pawl pockets stretched. Both of these caused the hub to ‘pop’ quite a bit. This required lacing in a new hub that I9 did not cover under any warranty. I’m an old weak guy and did regular service using the recommended oil and grease. So not sold any longer on the I9 Koolaid. May consider an Onyx hub in the future but definitely will do research beforehand.
Very informative video. Can you do one for the Raceface Vault and it's reverse pawl system? Thanks
I used to run Chris King hubs which are great but very expensive. I now run DT Swiss 350 hubs and love 'em!
I have a Hydra hubset that has 3+ years of very hard enduro and park riding on it. Earlier this year I did a full rebuild on it including all new bearings and replacing the original axle design with the new one. The old one had a bit of wear, but was still functional and silent. I theorize my hub might last longer because it's been on the back of a Santa Cruz frame, which has a very solid and stiff rear triangle.
There is a "nuclear option" for replacement axles- the Pinner Machine Works axle is steel and is seriously beefy. I didn't feel I needed it, nor did I want the extra weight. but that's an option for heavier riders or flexier frames.
Good info, thanks! Any thoughts on the Onyx sprag clutch hubs? Would like to see a pros/cons list on the Vesper.
Great analysis. As someone who spent 30 plus years in industrial maintenance issues related to machine shop work on say pump shafts and failures related to stress risers from sharp transitions were addressed by changing the machining to eliminate those sharp edged cuts. Since most cartridge bearings do not have sharp edges but have slightly radiuses edges simply matching axle radius to the bearing edge radius should make a difference. Requires mod to machining not sticking a washer in the critical location.
Interestingly the new Solix hubs have a very large radius on that part of the axle and do not have the 'stress washer kit'. It's worth noting we haven't seen any issues with the 'stress washer kit' axles and they seem to increase bearing life -Tristan
id love to see you do this type of video on all major hubs. Especially the Onyx Classic and Vesper.
Yeah, I would love to get a wheelset with the Onyx hubs but I'm somewhat reluctant sicne they are so expensive and different from other hubs. Don't find anything about how they hold up in trail/enduro usage…
@@haentz Ive seen some stuff on vespers having flex with heavy or strong riders, but the classic is supposed to be amazingly gtg, its just heavy.
One of the first very valid points you made was to maintain and check your equipment. 2720 miles on new Pivot 429 since March riding around Phoenix, Tucson, S New Mexico, Angel Fire and around El Paso, Tx. regular cleaning and maintenance every couple weeks. Rolls fast and smooth bearings still quiet. So when should my sub standard hub break as predicted by some commenters?
Over 60 POE is only “useful” on the parking lot or when riding trials.
Crazy. Back when I owned a hydra, I thought it was the coolest thing. Screaming down the trail, instant engagement, all that. I then snapped an axle within the year. Pretty soon I got sick of the whining sound. My next bike came with 350s, which I love aside from the fact that they don’t come default with a 54T.
Echoing what other people have said, it is good to understand why my axle failed. I couldn’t figure it out and kinda just gave up.
Great information! I would expect a single speed hardtail but don’t use Industry Nine hubs. I have Hadley,Hope SS/T and Onyx Classic single speed specific hubs. New had an axle failure and have only replaced bearings on my Hadley hubs but original bearings in my Hope and Onyx hubs
I've had Hydra hubs for 2 years now and they skip from time to time as if the leaf spring weren't stiff enough to bring the pawl to fit inside the ratchet ring fast enough. This skipping only occurs on the first engagement when you start pedalling hard. I9 changed my hub on warranty but I expect bearings to give away next year. Can't tell about the axle but this video is pretty clear to me. Conclusion for hubs: High POE, Reliability, reasonable price... you can only have 2!
I have the same skipping on my Torch hub. Usually after coasting, and then engage, can hear a loud snap/crunch noise. Annoying, and other than it eats cluster hub bearings it's been fine.
I had similar snapped hubs in my hunt race aero wides, always between the freehub and wheel shell! They definitely creaked too, good to know, Hunt replaced these for free but wouldn't help me when I asked for the cause or what i could do to prevent it.
What kind of service intervals would you recommend? For heavy use (heavy rider, big travel) to light use (light rider, hardtail)
Two wheelsets with Hydra hubs and never had a problem. Been riding the first set since 21' and the other since 22' both with over 3k miles on them both on Enduro bikes that get ridden like I stole them. No mechanical issues of any kind. They were built by I9 and have their aluminum spokes also.
would love to see similar analysis of zipp zr1 hubs!
thank you
I'm not an engineer, can I9 redesign the hub to have 2 opposite facing pawls or 3 pawls engage at once (rather than 1 pawl) and then have the remaining pawls engage shortly after to reduce the stress on the single pawl leading to the axle stress and bearing damage?
I wonder what issue the Torch had ? Got new, never used old stock one a few months ago... that im yet to use.
Except for the stupid design with O-rings and needing a special tool/ vise to remove the endcaps. Any other issue ?
This video makes me really glad I went with a DT Swiss 350 hub (with the 54t ratchet). The mechanic at my LBS mentioned this problem with I9’s when I was choosing a hub and ultimately he’s found the DT Swiss hubs are nearly indestructible even when abused. Being a budget a reliable and easy to maintain hub was super important.
Does the rear triangle flex based on pivot wear?
My bikes all have supports that link the 2 sides together.
On my trail bike, the rear triangle is 1 piece mounted to the linkages, I can't put a 29 in the rear because the bridge goes around the wheel, would worn pivots still cause flex?
Great video. I would like to not break my hubs. Thats why I only use 72 engagement points. ;)
great vid
Thanks for great review. I’m thinking of Hydra not only because 690POE, but I also hope it will propery engage. My experience with other pawl based hubs is that after some time the powls does not properly engage and there is a click when you start to pedal. Any experience on this concerning the Hydra?
This isn't something we've had reported to us on the Hydra - they seem to engage consistently as long as the bearings are in good shape -TT
I had a bike stolen about 3 months ago, and the worst part of that was losing the 22 year old Chris King hubs that were on it.
I had Pinner Machine shop build me one of his stainless axles for my hydra after it broke the aluminum one. It has never worked as good as it does now. Do yourself a favour and get yourself one. It functions perfectly and the bearings now last more than a few months. It's an amazing hub now that it has a better axle.
Yep - broke my 1/1 axle 3 times before going the Pinner route. Works great - wheel/axle interface is noticeably stiffer, better bearing life and so far, no more broken axles.
My thoughts exactly
Would love to hear your thoughts about Onyx hubs and their sprag freehub design. Probably the most instantaneous engagement out there and they've been doing it a long time; any known issues/downsides?
We've been asked this a lot since both hubs have similar fast engagement but go about it in different ways. We see a few broken axle issues on Onyx hubs which are ridden really hard, but nothing worryingly high. Overall they work well, but they are heavy (there's that trade-off again 😬) -Tristan
Kind of nice to see a video that does not contain a load of swearing about bike products. Not by a 5 year old. Thanks.
The pen...is...working 😅
Great video.
What's your take on Onyx's Sprag Clutch mechanism? Do you think this system is more robust and will require less frequent servicing? Or will high/instant engagement always have its downsides?
We honestly haven't built/sold enough Onyx hubs to gather enough info on their durability. We've seen a few broken axles when used by super aggressive riders, and we've seen the occasional freehub issue, but as I said it's not from a large enough pool that I can confidently point out the strengths and weakpoints of the hubs.
The Onyx design is super unique and it would be great to do a deep-dive into how it works, but without having a sufficient number of hubs being sold don't expect a pros/cons vid from us any time soon ~Tristan
What about Tairin hubs? Steel, light and all points engaging…?
Interesting stuff. Glad I went with Onyx.
Same! Love my silent, instant, and most importantly purple onyx!
Great video!
Is this an issue specific to I9s or could this also be an issue for other high engaging pawl based hubs ? (Like Project321)
And could it be the case of different mechanisms such as Onyx Sprag Clutch?
Project321 Gen3 hubs use 6 pawls with 2 pawl engaging simultaneously...the way I've understood their design they are not using axle flex to allow a 3rd pawl to engage like the Hydra.
The Onyx design is completely different and possibly warrants it's own vid as the two often get compared because of their quick engagement but the way they achieve this couldn't be more different
-Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels cheers, thanks for clarifying 👍
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheelsI would really like to see a video on the onyx hub. Nice job on the video.
How do you listen to creaking noises on the loudest part of the bike !
Forgive my ignorance, but does this just apply to hyrdra hubs or does it apply to all I9 hubs, to include 1/1 hubs? Great videos btw!!
Just the Hydra. The 1/1 is far more traditional and seems to go through bearings pretty quickly but doesn't have the axle breakage issues -Tristan
I’m curious how the sprag clutch from Onyx fairs by comparison? A completely different approach to ultra-high engagement.
No issue, as the sprags on an Onyx all work at the same time, making the forces all even from all angles
We're asked about this comparison a lot since both hubs have fast engagement but go about it in totally different ways. I'll see if we can do a video on it! -TT
no comment on reliability as I've not tried a sprag hub for years but they do have different feelings when riding.
Firstly there's the weight...sprag hubs need a lot of steel to cope with the forces so they always weigh quite a lot compared with a pawl style hub.
They also have a slight spongy feel when engaging...again it's been a while since I used one (and have never used an Onyx), it's not the worst thing but it wasn't something I liked very much.
I will give them credit for being nice and quiet though, I do like that!
@Ali_Clarkson did you ride with the old Shimano Silent Clutch hubs? The Onyx has a similar spongy feel to those - personally I really didn't like it for trials but it never bothered me on a mountain bike. -Tristan
I have a 2017 Torch hub. Eats the cluster shell bearings, lasts about 1 year. Love the quick engagement hate the reliability. Seems not much improved with the Hydra.
As a heavier rider who likes to get a bit sendy, this definitely has me wanting to stick with DT Swiss hubs, the 54t star ratchet is plenty of engagement for me
The 54T star ratchets shear more easily, so keep spares for that….
Only solution is to buy CK I guess.
Never had issues with the axles, however I’ve had the freehub strip itself once before, which was not so ideal. Other than that one issue, loved the hubs
I've gotten lucky I guess. I have some Hydra wheels with like 4 seasons on them, and I'm 230 lbs and haven't had any of these problems yet on my FS bike. Just got some more Hydra hubs to put on a dirt jumper, we'll see if that could introduce enough stress but I bet it's better off than my FS bike.
Thanks for this video, that's why I chose the 1/1 version and I have no problems. Now I'm considering ERASE hubs with 60 POE RATCHET for my new E-bike, have you had any experience with them?
The Erase stuff looks interesting but I haven't seen any in real life yet -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels In that case, I hope that this will change soon ;), because I haven't found many opinions about them.
Still keep an eye on the 1/1. I've broken my 1/1 axle several times (breaks in the same spot shown in this video), tends to happen to me about every 2000 miles. I ended up buying a 'forever' steel axle from Pinner Machine shop and it has been great.
@@ionicman1 Thanks for tip ;)
Sorry not on this hub . Have u had much to do with rf vault hub ?
I bought a set of wheels with the Hydra hub in July 2022. The rear hub had the old axle and failed about a year later. Industry 9 sent me the improved designed axle with new bearings. Now less than a year later 2 of the bearings are completely shot. The axle seem fine but to have to replacing bearing this frequently seem like this design is still problematic.
Reynolds with Hydra hubs was quick to replace my axle with the new design. It lasted +1,700 miles of moderate abuse on my Pivot Shuttle SL.
It isn’t that aluminium is a stiff material, it’s a lot more flexible than steel, size for size. But it’s much lighter, so by using more and making things bigger diameter you can make it stiff. Furthermore, because aluminium suffers from fatigue cracking, you NEED to design it to be stiff and avoid cyclic flex or it will break. A steel or titanium axle could tolerate this, but it would be hard to design it to be flexible enough while maintaining the diameter, which is needed for the through axle. Out of interest, fatigue life tests on cylindrical parts are often done by forcing the part into a bent shape then rotating it, so the life of these axles is a hard one.
How about using a Pinner axle? Have you used them on your wheel builds?
No, we haven't used the Pinner axles. I worry about the super-stiff axle being really hard on freehub bodies. -Tristan
Pinner Machine Shop in Whistler BC offers Steel and Titanium i9 Hydra compatible axles as another possible solution
Would it be so terrible to have "only" 230 POE and three pawls engage simultaneously? Or 345 POE with two pawls?
I must be extremely lucky. I have a Hydra hub on my Kenevo SL e-bike. I weigh 290 pounds. In 4,000 miles I have had the hub once serviced. I have had zero problems.
How about Project 321 hubs?
or a Ti axle, yes they are available
DT Swiss --> Money saved, problem solved!
The Hydra hub mechanism is an compliant structure that uses freehub and axle flex to make the 690 points of engagement happen. Unfortunately this also results in poor bearing life and ultimately, axle failure. Aluminum has a finite fatigue life and they've built a hub that uses aluminum as a spring. It's a ticking time bomb.
lol, what could go wrong...
DT Swiss and Onyx owners feeling mighty superior right now...
Wow, my i9 hydra hubs I thought are amazing. This makes me pretty nervous now.
They're good hubs with a really unique engagement system and sound - this vid is to explain how/why they work and point out the bits that need extra attention -Tristan
it's a failed engineering, or simply, engineered to fail. Solution: first change to DW Swiss and ride.
Honestly DT Swiss is all you need for human powered bikes imo. On e-bikes you might want more poe.
@@treimar Reliable and durable hub is what you need, trust me.
@@ivanteo1973 Yes, but as ebikes/gearbox bikes have a freewheel mechanism in the front aswell it kinda multiplies the engagement slop of the hub. So I do prefer high engagement for those. But I just recently settled for Hope Pro 5 with "only" 108 poe. Does the trick for me.
@@treimarthat is reversed logic, for e bikes you need less poe, something like 18t ratchet
@@aleksarajkovic3471 I get why you would want that for strenght and etc, but you will end up with slop fest. The motor has a sloppy freewheel and then you have a sloppy freewheel at the back aswell. It will take 3 business days to start moving.
I prefer high poe to cancel out the slop of the motor as much as possible myself.
As a Bike mechanic, a hobby DH BIKE PARK HOBBY rider, and since I'm 12 years old I started MTB in 1992, I have one or two opinions about hubs and your video message. You want to ride your bike, without technical defekts?
1 - Don't buy Shimano hubs! XTR are to expensive, XT breaks apart after 6 to 12 Mon, Saint works but the bearings are bad!!
2 - Don't buy stuff, Wich axles are breaking and somebody on RUclips explains, why should buy it any way
3 - Go and buy some DT Swiss hubs, done 😜🤣👍‼️
Danny Macaskill and all those other trials guys run Hydra hubs and put insane amounts of force through them, yet they still hold up. I wonder if this is because they are using super stiff trials frames.
points of engagement
This is great but unfortunate info. That said I do like I9 as a company and own 2 wheelsets with Hydras and 2 with Torch. It seems it would better to design this with to have two opposing pawls engaging without flex and therefore have half the POE at 345, which would still be great.
Maybe titanium axle...light and it doesn't crack like aluminum ,its more elastic,flexible..or maybe inox as a cheaper option
Axle flexing designed into the hub? Wtaf?
DT for me.
Love my bomb proof Chris Kings
This is the reason why other hubs uses special inner diameter bearings (ex. 6902-2rs 16). Which means the inner diameter is 16mm instead of 15mm to thicken the axle a bit. That is also why THRU AXLE is far better than QR.
A 6902 bearing is 15x28x7mm and the 2rs means a rubber seal on both sides. 16mm is very rare bearing internal diameter and much more likely to be 17mm which is used in some of the Hope, Berd, and newer DT Swiss Hybrid hubs ~Tristan
The "spokes"-man - really😂😂😂
:-D
Can't they just change the pawls design so that 2 pawls engage at 1st instead of 1?
Glad I choose good old DTSwiss 240 hubs on my mtb😂
The average rider does not need that much engagement. For trials I can see wanting very quick engagement, but for mountain biking, it's really unnecessary. I just got myself the e-bike version of the pro5 for this reason. I want as many pawls engaged as possible because I just want the hub to last as long as possible.
Why steel axle it design to flex like chromoly frame or getting a steel axle give more flex. how about getting 3 teeth per pawls so it support the load
Basically sell them and get some dt swiss hubs?
That's the tradeoff though, right? If you want the fast engagement you need to trade it off against othe things -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels I'd rather not "expect" my rear axles to snap and need regular replacement. 👍
Hope v5 🤙
1:20 at this point you do a undercut (din 509), radius of 0.3mm should be enough to make it a lot stronger - I wonder why this is not done properly, if I understand this correctly, this gets educated in the first semester of mechanical engineering studies - I learned it in a side thingy in electrical engineering, so I am not 100% sure, but I really think that these are mistakes on basic levels
I really rather use DT Swiss hubs were you know that they get these things right anyways, because othervise nobody would use their parts as oem parts
Does 1/1 have the same issue?
No, the 1/1 uses a more traditional design and while it doesn't have amazing bearing life it doesn't seem to chew through them or break axles. -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels Unfortunately axles absolutely do break on 1/1 hubs (at the same stress riser spot). It might not be designed to flex as the Hydra but I've broken 3 over the span of about 6000 miles. However, since the 1/1 isn't supposed to flex the steel axle I bought from Pinner has been a great solution.
Have a set of 1970s phil wood hubs that still roll like perpetual motion. New always isn't better.
unless you want to install an XDR cassette ;-) Those old Phil hubs are amazing. -Tristan
HOPE - all the way, any day!
A Titanium axle would solve the issue for sure, it'll have an impact on the cost for sure. With clever design it'll not have a weight penalty.
Interesting you mention a stiffer axle would cause more wear on the freehub pawl pockets. I run a Hydra with a 10 mm bolt on axle on my trials bike, so it sees a huge amount of force (very low gearing, big guy, explosive pedal kicks). The bolt on axle is a lot stiffer than the 12 mm one, and I haven't broken one in almost 3 years of use. However, the pawl seats showed significant wear after just a few months. Even posted a little clip about it here: ruclips.net/video/juzsIhsSMuw/видео.html.
Is the bolt-in axle an aftermarket part or a factory i9 axle? I have never seen this option from them and can't see anything on their website. That wear in the pawl pockets isn't unusual for any pawl hub and often doesn't cause any issues....Hope hubs for example tend to do this but rarely does it cause the hub to misbehave.
I used to ride a lot of trials and can see why the Hydra would be a great hub for this type of riding! -Tristan
@@WheelworksHandcraftedWheels it's an option on their single speed hub (or was at least). The Hope SS hub used to use a steel freehub body, which faired a bit better pawl pocket wear wise (some other stuff didn't go as well though haha, like a stripped drive ring).
My Hydra did eat freehub bearings, because the axle was slightly too short, causing excessive load on the freehub when bolted down hard to the dropouts. A 0,1 mm shim between freehub end cap and axle end fixed that. I also had to install double springs below the pawls to prevent it from skipping under light engagement. With those mods, t's been doing pretty well ever since. As you say, the instant engagement is amazing for trials!
I'd forgotten about the singlespeed version! I can't find it by navigating through their website but freehub bodies are available in the Support section and the webpage for the hub is still live:
industrynine.com/hubs/mountain/hydra-classic-single-speed-6b-rear/
-Tristan
Stick to the masters.. dtswiss....
Hope pro5 are very good aswell.
Its single pawl engagement - happens in many traditional hubs, due to tolerances. But happens in Hydras by design, absolutely crazy. Single pawl engagement puts a huge radial load on the bearing and axles, and that's why they're failing. Best thing to do is by a dt240. Failures probably more common on full sus because of single pawl engagement (high radial loads) under harsh pedal kickback (drops at slow speeds). Doesn't happen on hardtails.
Tristan Thomas is the spokesman. Get it? Spokes-man. Nevermind...
I'll see myself out...
ffs, that V1 engagement system looks like it belongs in a mechanical timepiece.
I just purchased a brand new set of their 300 endurance industry nine wheels that came with I-9 hubs. I just got the wheels two weeks ago. Makes me nervous now
Hope you have weak legs
Get a pinner machine shop forever axle an you should have no issues