I find the managers interviewing her fully clothed when she was forced to be naked, to be a really sinister power move. How come they were the only ones allowed to be clothed in the whole place? They said anyone that is clothed is a predator, so....If you listen closely, manipulative people will tell you exactly what they're doing by what they accuse others of.
It sounds like one of those nightmares where you accidentally show up to the interview naked and everyone in the office is clothed and laughing at you.
My husband and I belonged to a nude hippie natural hot springs resort in Colorado, in the 1970’s, early 1980’s, never felt harnessed, just felt natural, no problems, soaking in these pools high in the Colorado mountains, Hiding behind spirituality and Zen Buddhism is so low!
@@CultstoConsciousness That is not what she said. She belonged to a nudist colony. It was not a Zen place. She said that it is low to hide behind alleged Zen Buddhism. Real Zen communities have been known to have clothing optional hot springs, which is not unusual in Japan. But they would never go about their daily business nude. ALSO, Zen is NOT a Judeo-Christian religion, so you would know that something is fishy already, if you knew that.
@@milascave2It's normal to bathe naked together in Japan as they have large communal round baths but they shower before getting into the bath. Families bathe together and also strangers of both sexes. That place reminds me 😅of Zegg south of Berlin in Germany. It's an intentional permaculture community that takes paying guests. But they are not naked most of the time as it's too cold most of the year round and they would need protective clothing for the work they do.
Not “I was violated in a way.” Sweetie…you were violated and I am so angry for you. I wish I could help you get revenge or justice or something. This breaks my heart.
I don't feel like revenge is a useful aim. As someone not violated that way I don't have that desire BUT it's urgently important to me to protect future people from such Having elementary school sex Ed (Human anatomy, expect periods, bodily autonomy is important, these civic institutions are there to protect vulnerable people) is important
As a 60+woman that been to bdsm-clubs in europe I have NEVER FELT MOORE SAFE then at these clubs. I Done it since I was 20 and I been harazed on the subway, ”normal” pubs and clubs but never ever at a bdsm-club. Everybody are welcome. And this community have moore stict rules then so called normal people. And drugs and alkohol is not allowed. Im so sorry for your experiens. Makes me cry💞
This is an amazing video! I learned a term called "crap-fitting" from a woman named Anna Runkle, and I feel like that's what Kirsten is describing when she's just like, "Yep. This is fine!" I'm a former Jehovahs Witness and could never put a finger on how I felt when I would shove my feelings away and just "be okay" with whatever was happening, even if I was uncomfortable AF. I love these interviews, you do incredible work, Shalese! ❤
In 2007 I lived on a property with a bunch of people who wanted to create something like this in Northern California, although they weren't honest about it either, they claimed to be the opposite of what they were. The attraction for most of us was a work-for-rent arrangement in a beautiful setting but the guys running the operation were subtly exploiting us financially and psychologically. As soon as I called somebody out for predatory behavior that I witnessed it became clear that my life was in danger and left the state. I warned the women to get out before it became dangerous and then got my family to buy me a plane ticket. I moved back home and started a new life. In my experience , clothing optional communities and resorts do tend to lean strongly towards shaming people who are shy. Once I had accepted the idea that I was safe being nude around others it was not a problem and it was a liberating experience that deeply altered my sense of shame in a positive way... but it also seemed to open the door for others to a lot of excessive behavior that prompted me to not want to be around those settings.
@@magtag853 It wasn't a self help liberation community. Where did you get that idea? I'm really curious, somebody used that term with me earlier this year and I assumed they were nuts but now that I hear somebody else using it I'd love to know where it originates from.
@@johncaccioppo1142 well u said it was liberating to go without clothes. So that is what I call a self help liberation. Many of these utopian groups claim to have this as their purpose, but it really is a lure or hook for control. I am happy you escaped early!
@@magtag853 I apologize, I realize the confusion now. The group I was talking about was not a nudist group, those were different times and places. Living in Northern California exposed me to a lot of weird groups and situations but I could have been clearer in telling the story.
As someone who has been involved in the local BDSM/sex-positive and poly communities for decades, the fact that they were not fully up front about the nudity and other requirements just comes off as a HUGE red flag to me. Any legit organization, whether they're naturists or swingers or whatever, will be absolutely clear about who they are and what they expect *well before* you ever get to the point where you're expected to participate. And they will almost invariably (space permitting of course) have an entrance lobby/foyer where you're expected to be wearing something reasonably street-legal, no full or partial nudity. The fact that it was in a residential area is not _necessarily_ a red flag, depending on the tenor of the neighborhood; but IME these sorts of facilities are generally located in industrial or office park environments, if not more rural retreats. Places where a certain level of privacy and discretion can be easily maintained, and you're not likely to have people randomly wandering by. As for the "Zen" aspect, that comes off so much like the typical western appropriation of the aesthetic and superficial rituals of Buddhism, without any of the actual understanding of the philosophy and worldview behind it; like so much of the "New Age spiritualism" rife in the west. Especially egregious in this case, since sexual rituals aren't even part of Ch'an (Zen) Buddhist practice, that's from Vajrayana Buddhism, a completely different tradition entirely. Zen is derived from an early form of Mahayana Buddhism; the three primary branches of Buddhism being Theravada (the oldest and "purest", going back to Siddhartha Guatama's original disciples), Mahayana (the largest and most varied worldwide, branching off into numerous different schools, Ch'an/Zen being the most well-known), and Vajrayana (the youngest, practiced primarily in Tibet, and which incorporates many indigenous religious traditions the other sects don't).
Absolutely red flags, all around! We've never been part of the lifestyle, but have been entertainers (music) for an area club. Their rules did not include everyone needing to be naked, you could be fully dressed if you wished. They also had what I thought was a great rule in that males could only attend IF they were accompanied by a female. Females could attend on their own. It was a safety first issue and they definitely didn't want males behaving in predatory manners with anyone there. I never once felt unsafe.
@@starri9103 The clubs I attended required all members and their guests to read and sign a list of the rules and restrictions, so everyone who was involved knew what was expected of them before ever being allowed in. They had the same restrictions regarding unaccompanied males (with a few exceptions for long-term members in good standing), for the same reason, and a blacklist of people who violated rules badly enough. The clubs were definitely accepting of LGBTQ+ folks, but I don't quite recall their rules regarding gay men (IIRC they were also required to come as couples, not solos). I did personally know a few people who were blacklisted, one was a male who was blacklisted pre-emptively due to his reputation at other clubs; the other a male and female couple who had a, shall we say, less-than-stellar record regarding consent and other female guests (IOW,they were skeevy unicorn hunters).
Very much with the appropriation 😞, also as someone who’s BDSM curious and self positive , it feels incredibly scummy to know this essentially sounds like a sex resort but they market themselves as a zen resort, that’s not right at all .
This so much!!! From the first paragraph to the end re: the typical Western appropriation of Buddhism for the "aesthetics" 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ So well said! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
This comment was was very helpful & educational for someone who's never been in ANY of those groups, religions, etc. I feel so .... Ignorant of so many things. I might need to go on a quest to learn more about some different things. Lol. But thanks for the helpful & very informative comment! 💖💕
Sadly, there are many groups and even just people posing as "sexual healers" "Tantric Goddesses" "Tantric Sex healers" using predatory tactics like this and shaming you if you won't do the things they recommend. Making you feel as though you are not "sexually healthy" or my personal favorite "not in touch with your divine feminine". They shame you in to letting people touch you, manipulate you, etc. Most of my work done in St. George is helping people heal from these groups and "healers" who manipulate them into sex abuse.
Truly one of the biggest red flags I've ever experienced. I went to a Pagan event and the men kept talking about sex magic and helping/"worshipping" the divine feminine of others. I never went to another one from that group.
To Kirsten: girl, you went from the frying pan straight to the fire…… I feel so bad for the younger you. It sounds like you have done some intensive healing, you are amazing! To Shelise: thanks so much for these videos, it raises so much awareness. Love ya Girl!
Yes, it's important when leaving organised religion not to go to the other extreme. I trod carefully when I left religion, though I loved to drink alcohol. I needed a bit of numbing after the trauma of finding out how extreme they were which was the last straw.
The courage is amazing! Thanks for Kirsten being so vulnerable here and open about her story so we can raise awareness and start to question things around. Props to this amazing woman and I appreciate her so much! Great for me to stay up late in China to enjoy the enlightenment and learn from others!
It’s so easy to fall for the same or very similar situation to what you’ve left when you’ve been abused. And we need to point out those who take advantage of others no matter how they brand it. Ethics above all.
It sounds like to me that consent was at the heart of the problem with this "temple" - not necessarily s*x, nudity or swinging. To be clear, consent requires full knowledge, openness, ongoing verbal check-ins and a way out if it becomes too much. Manipulation, lies and rejection of bodily autonomy are antithetical to consent - and that's what appears was going on here. By contrast, I volunteered at a kink club in downtown Chicago for a while (over a decade ago) and it was very strict when it came to consent. If people were playing out a "scene", you often had to get permission just to watch the scene, much less participate in any way. If there were consent violations, they were dealt with harshly. And they had education classes every month to ensure everyone could play safely and be fully informed. Interestingly, I picked up on some discussions about a swingers club on the North side of Chicago where (at least at the time) consent was not protected and the owner ran the place like a king enjoying his personal harem. Nobody from the kink club I worked at had anything good to say about it and everyone was warned to stay away. So there can always be good and bad out there. Get informed (maybe try the Savage Love or Off the Cuffs podcasts) and don't let manipulation tactics sway you. If you want to try something, try it. If not, don't. There's no shame in not being into everything someone else is into. My kinks are not yours and vice versa - and that's okay.
yes, that's my experience too -- there are many places and events that are rigorous about consent and respectful of people, and there are no real problems. and then there are some others where boundaries are blurred or it actually becomes exploitive, and that's no good....
My wife and I have also frequented a lovely kink club. Some spaces are clothing mandatory. Most are optional, but it's alllllll about consent and honesty. Nobody pressures anyone, and if you did I have ZERO doubt the staff would kick them out and revoke their membership. It's honestly so great. Obviously not what's happening here. 😢
Thank you for sharing your story, Kristen. I know it could not have been easy. I am so sorry this happened to you. These issues absolutely need to be brought to light. Thank you. And thank you for providing a platform for people to share these stories, Shelise. I appreciate that you pointed out how important consent and communication are for people who are actually in the lifestyle. This place is NOT a lifestyle club/spa/group. It boils my blood when people try to use alternative lifestyles as an excuse or cover for predatory behavior.
I'm a former mormer from SLC, but living in New Zealand. Here in NZ the term "lifestyle" means owning property with a home and small farm. I see the potential of some very unfortunate confusions...
!!!!PLEASE READ!!!! I did some digging into the co-owners and founders of the company. Very quickly I could definitely see some huge issues that weren't very covered in this video The most important thing is that the business owner has (and does) also owned 1 or more "Explicit film company" (if you know what I mean) under several different DBAs and company names, all while owning not only the location in Las Vegas but other similar 'spas' in CA. This film company (or companies) has existed for decades. From reviews, this video, there are several reviews on their establishments as customers & being filmed and photographed without permission and subsequently promptly leaving sometimes they would mention that everyone else around them did the same once finding they were being filmed and photographed without permission. This is without adopt extremely concerning. Though I don't want to go on the record saying this is a certainty using references to testimonials and documents on public record, though without having done hours of research or anything, it is quickly obvious there are implications of some serious personal & basic rights being violated in these establishments, potentially even more than what your video covers. Keep in mind that these establishments are documented as 'churches' & one could deduce the likelihood of tax benefits for being a "church". Amongst other lawsuits documented, there was a lawsuit filed against the owners in 2019 by Clark County, (the county which Las Vegas is in) ..."asking for [it] to be closed down. Additionally, it is asking the owners to pay $15,000 in unpaid taxes, fees and interest...The lawsuit also claims that the [owners] made several modifications to the property and its pool and never obtained the necessary approvals or permits to make the modifications [&] never obtained a permit to serve food from the Southern Nevada Health District, according to the county. Clark County says that the violations 'cause irreparable harm by compromising the health & safety of the residents of Clark County' & 'has & will continue to reduce property values, & has & will continue to compromise the serenity of the surrounding neighborhood.' " (All [edits] were for remedy & not wanting to disclose actual addresses or names without channel permission. Local news reports & public records were used as sources, 13 news was the quotes). If you can get this info out there, please do. This seems even more insidious than what was covered having so many DBAs/businesses especially when the differences of names is only by a -hyphen- is typically a red flag as It indicates a willful resistance to transparency. Kirsten, your determination to expose dangerous people who try to benefit from exploiting & violating other people to make MONEY is commendable & worth more than an applause. You're brave in a world where such behavior shouldn't make you have to be. Your candid willingness to share helps this become closer to realit. Both you & Shalise are strong, beautiful humans. Your contributions are more valuable than you could know, now more than ever.
The most concerning thing to me was Kirsten’s (and possibly you) acceptance that you had to “go with the flow” after leaving Mormonism, rather than following your own instincts until you acclimatised to the general population. Also the idea that you didn’t really know what the general social mores were. Glad you both are now acclimatised, but I worry for others who are fresh out of a controlling situation. Truly hope channels like this help. 🌹
I agree! To me it's wild bc I'd never have believed I was in a cult or had any similarities to someone raised in a cult. BUT watching these channels & a few other creators who speak on deconstructing, has shown me that I VERY much have the same mentality & struggles as ALL of these lovely ppl! & Getting out of that religion from my childhood YEARS ago, I never deconstructed or changed my way of thinking & now I'm VERY much mindblown at how crazy it is bc I struggle w\ALL of these things. I was raised Southern Baptist & Pentecostal & I'm such a Ppl Pleaser to a debilitating standard, & have been conditioned to NOT ask questions & do what I was told. The list goes on & on. It's strange & scary & hopefully liberating.
I listened to a woman on another channel talk about how she was a nanny for a family who was nudist and she said that at most resorts people have a towel with them for that very reason.
That massage therapist could and should loose her license. Pressuring and non affirmative consent is against the ethical standards. What you did robed was assault 😢
@@chapman1569Exactly. Certainly was not a person who cared about upholding any professional standards and ethics, and highly doubt the “retreat” owners were worried about hiring certified massage therapists.
This whole thing reminds me of the time i got tricked into working at a massage parlour then got tricked into giving massages and then got propositioned and as a 20 year old drug addict who had no coping skills I had no idea how to speak up because I’m just a addict at a rub n tug.
I was almost tricked into working in one as I was looking for accommodation and one landlord ran a massage parlour. I worked full time at the time and was told I would get a reduced rent if I worked in the massage parlour part time. I declined.
It sounds like you're doing better now, I'm sorry you had that experience! I can relate and it's taken a long time but please know that you are worthy of a great life no matter what your decisions and thoughts have been in the past. 💗
Oh sweetheart, you are never "just" anything... And I hope you're doing better now. I don't care what your personal story is, you are a human being that deserves love and respect and I hope you know that. ❤
If you run a church, you shouldn’t be calling it a spa… I am so sorry that this happened to you, and it’s inspiring to hear that you’re more confident about your boundaries now. The good thing is that it’s becoming less common as we have more and more public conversations about what consent and coercion look like. I’m glad that they let you have a clean break, and I hope the other location you mentioned is not run the same way. I disapprove of unethical behavior. Nudism, Buddhism, and tantric practices can be great without the deception.
there can be reasons for screening out some people at legitimate nudist/naturist venues and events, where there can problems with voyeurs showing up -- as well as those trying to be inappropriately sexual, such as mixing in swinger 'Lifestyle' activities. but that's obviously not what was going on in this case, and in my experiences there's generally tolerance for well-intended guests who are genuinely uncomfortable with being nude. thanks for being respectful of alternative lifestyles, and just calling out bad players and abusive, non-consensual practices. in my experience even in those communities it's good to have awareness that there are bad actors, particularly those who are sneaky (or even culty) about violating boundaries and twisting consent. it's also worth being clear that nudism/naturism has long been traditionally very a non-sexual culture and doesn't really overlap much with other things; the 'swinger' Lifestyle is something of its own, adult-only resorts are a particular type of business that attract dedicated swingers as well as others, and polyamory and kink/BDSM are their own things that may or may not overlap with the others.
i could imagine that the uncomfy people don’t just feel like the odd ones out and hang around to fit in, but also feel pressured to try to get their money’s worth, even if they’re uncomfortable :/ i’m so glad that she got out of these groups and is on a healing path 💗
Thank you for your vulnerability && courage telling this story, especially being the first whistleblower. This is disgusting, I’m so sorry you went through this! It’s easy to imagine the more I’ve watched how growing up in a cult can lend to more of these types of thing’s happening afterwards. They broke your boundaries down quickly, yet slowly over time until the moments like the massage where at that point it’s just another thing on the list. I hope you continue having a safe, beautiful life YOU are in control of your boundaries for.
Right off the jump (~7:20), it's very troubling that this place markets itself as a Buddhist space, but then pulls (another) bait and switch and claims to be a "Judeo-Christian" space (which is problematic as a term in and of itself). Idk, it feels really icky and misleading to force a Christian perspective into a space which is billed as a Buddhist space initially, especially considering the power dynamics at play between the dominant Christian theology (esp considering the rising Christo-fascist movement in the US) and a minority religion like Buddhism. Very troubling, though likely not the most troubling thing about this place, lol.
Kirsten, congratulations on the incredible progression you've made in making this life truly yours. I couldn't help but relate to your journey, you from Mormon cult, and me from a polygamist one. I've been there too, wondering if I was the odd one for feeling that something wasn't quite right. But then, like you, I realized that if I had to question its normalcy, it probably wasn't. And yes, sometimes I find myself reminiscing about those innocent eyes that once saw the world through a different lens. Wishing you all the best may your life be filled with joy, fulfillment, and wonderful adventures.
Kirsten you are still absolutely GORGEOUS! I love your bubbly personality and it speaks volumes about your character esp. after ALL you have been through! Sending you so much love from Texas!!
This sounds like an interview for a position at the damn Bunny Ranch! My heart breaks for what you've been through. So glad that you are out and living a full life now!
I really like that this episode touches on how predatory groups lie online and sell discounts to attract victims. Anyone can really get sucked into cult-like situations and the damage is real!
That poor single girl hiding away with her book.... Imagine going in there as a woman thinking to have a spiritiual experience in a buddhist community and being forced to participate in a sexual cult instead. Yikes. I also feel bad for those partners forced into that just beacuse their partner withheld info and got them there and paid already... Such scummy behavior... i hope their partners leave those scums because how could anyone tolerate such disrespect (and pushing such boundaries like that)??? 😡
Lots of groups talk about "The Lifestyle". Swingers use it more than the others: BDSM, some LGBT groups, Burners, Cruisers, even RVers, just to name a few. But yes, when it's referred to that heavily, it's always Swingers. It's annoying. The Swinging Lifestyle is far more accurate. But Swingers tend to hate the word Swinger. Some will say literally anything else to avoid using that word; they haven't figured out how to own it, yet. | That bait-and-switch that some partners did to one another is NOT okay in The Swinging Lifestyle. We do NOT tolerate those types of behaviors. Word gets around FAST. And yes, clothing not-optional violates all consent, which is paramount in The Swinging Lifestyle. | Single women are lauded in The Swinging Lifestyle. Single men are extremely limited and pay a LOT more to attend almost any party or event. | For whatever it's worth, they get good reviews among Swingers online who talk about it being all nude. So maybe if you are Swingers and you are aware of this, it's a fun place. Seems they have both Vegas and Palm Springs locations. | The reason for the religion front (aside from tax evasion) is protection. Religions are protected, but Swingers are not a protected class. It's not a new idea, but their's might be the biggest version of it.
All of the swinger groups I have ever seen have had the no single men allowed rule. I was forced to join a group because my husband wanted to be involved but they wouldn't let him in if I wasn't present. Now I was treated with utmost respect and never pushed to do anything I didn't want to do....but I am poly not really interested in casual sex. I have yet to see a swing group that allows homosexuality in their play parties. Oddly they claim that they are doing the no single men thing to protect women and that swinging is women centric but it sure as hell never felt like the group was ever female lead. I may be wrong and maybe there are groups that exist that do not have a problem with homosexual sex but I have yet to meet one. Now the BDSM scene is the opposite as I've experienced it. I never went to a munch or meet where you were told what you could or had to accept. You do you is all I ever heard. I never felt nervous or afraid in the BDSM crowd....but again, my mileage may vary.
Even a lot of dance clubs will make single men wait outside if there are too many men and not enough women. Also lots of strip clubs allow women in free or discounted rate because they want women to come in. People dont want a sausage fest.
No, you're right. A lot of queer folks have convos about the gross vibe of "polyam/naturist" men who are clearly just toxic or even predatory, and then be the ones starting these communities. How sus it is that for those people it always seems to be one man and multiple women. With him as the ringleader. (Don't trust anything in this world thats strictly hetero 😂) In all seriousness though, you're picking up on these male-led phony feminist "body-pos" liars that just conflate women's lib and sexual lib movements in order to get these normalized-but-highly-fetishized environments. It is all very cult-y when I say it out loud. All in all, your gut instinct is right. Trust your gut...
Wow this is awful they did this to you. I hope you have healed . That was totally manipulative whst they did. It's crazy how people manipulate younger women especially.
I think that was one of the best Linda listens I've heard so far! Love your channel keep up the good work, from a New Zealander who's never had religion in her life but finds everything you talk about absolutely fascinating! 😂
Omg this is insane... Every time I thought it couldn't get more gross, it did! That these people exist, much less hide behind the false pretenses of being a Yoga Retreat to be a unicorn hunting safari is WiLd
I hope this story gets out so that more people aren't preyed upon, but I also don't wish that experience on anyone. Maybe she could release a book, that way at least she'll own her story. This is just so impressively brave to go public about at all.
So I only recently found your page, and I just have to say this was by far my favorite episode. She is absolutely adorable and so incredibly funny. I keep choking on my coffee. Her laugh is contagious.
I would say that the couples and single women only in swinging in Europe is pretty common. Having been to clubs that are everyone welcome, and the couples and single women, the everyone welcome clubs can get (ironically) a bit seedy. I was at one in Berlin where it was dudes who literally didn't want to pay for the "all you can eat" brothels, (flat rate, fuck all night!) coming to get some at the swingers clubs. Same place was known for bringing in "paid hostesses" so there would be more women around. Another place I was at in Berlin was women and couples only fridays and saturdays, but then anyone at all the rest of the week, maintained strict rules. When a guy wasn't taking no for an answer, and was following me around, I mentioned it in passing to one of the club managers. They bounced his ass immediately. Maybe having been in the lifestyle a bit, this place doesn't sound that odd to me... but I do think the "love buddha" retreat website is a bit sus. Not going to lie.
Everything except an enthusiastic and confident verbal "yes" is a no (unless of course you are unable to speak due to a medical condition, at which point there need to be other forms of consent)
Im pretty sure anyone can list on expedia now. I think theyre trying to follow airbnb or something because ive seen lots of very obvious residential homes listed as vacation suites there.
Back in the late 90s I was newly divorced and internet dating was a very new thing. I met a man who seemed very nice on the phone so we decided to meet for dinner. From the moment we met I got a really creepy vibe from him. During dinner he said that he was into the nudist lifestyle and was looking for a woman to come with him to a nudist resort because they didn’t allow single men. This happened in Indiana and the resort was advertised as being a “family friendly” nudist experience. They allowed families and couples but no single men in order to “keep out ped*philes”. I didn’t take him up on the offer. I’m sure it was a nice place for families who enjoy that sort of thing but I didn’t feel like he had good intentions.
Wow, that tax revelation at the end was a wild way to close this out. I'm so glad you're in a better place Kirsten. Thank you so much for your vulnerability and strength. You're so beautiful!
I understand her so much, I had 0 boundaries after leaving not 1 but 2 cults and didn't know what was normal and it ended me up in a bad situation for years that I only now am starting to understand how messed up most of what I was around was.
I began by thinking I´ll take notes going along. The intro is very heavy, also why I wanted to refrain from just pausing and reacting as we go along. As a "Dutch" person I tend to put my foot in my mouth at times. [Dutch Uncle; expression] I am 5 minutes in, as Kirsten remarks *"not nude = predator".* And this mind set is not unheard of in nudists communities. I notice the looks and sniffles. And things are becoming more nuanced and complex. Thus I felt a need to give a reaction: You are not a monkey to be lustfully googled at while in your nudist community. Voyeurism and exhibitionism are side lines with nudism, but not what nudism is about. This mindset "not nude = predator" often has more to do with locations. If the location - In Germany there are public parks that have designated area's for nudists. Here clothing is optional, since non-nudists can walk just by while walking through the park. Nudity on beaches, in Europe not a big deal, and there are designated nudists parts at beaches it is a minority and you have to look for them. But they do exist. If you are out in the middle of nature, and it was a hustle to find the location it more often is clothing optional but it is a nudist retreat. You don't go there to keep your cloths on, that is the rest of the outside world's mindset. Nude=sin/lust Maybe because I am European, and grew up knowing and hearing and at times seeing nudity and nudism. *FKK Freikörperkultuur* aka nudism. But *I fully understand the concern not nude = there to look at the nude bodies only.* Its not like we pluck out our eyes when we strip naked, but it evens the playing field. Both are naked. Also erections are harder to hide, but also a natural phenomenon. For men it is harder to hide lustful thoughts. But it also depends, Kirsten also calls it a swingers club. Which is a form of sex club... so... in that case; lust and erections are a thing one could/should expect. Especially after I went and googled on internet: *One Love Temple.* The way I take it at first glance is One Love Temple is close to the *Sea Mountain Nude Temple resort.* But I immediately get both in the screen. On further investigation they both have the same address and appear to be one and the same, but two different aspects. The SMNT is more a resort and retreat and the One Love Temple is a complex from this nudist retreat but just a catering aspect of it, not the full on retreat. So it depends on the marketing also at the location. However it seems like both are open and clear on being establishments for nudism / as a nudist community. Also I can't help but thinking of the nudist Temple in *Zootopia.* I am not sure how much laws are also concerned, this also being the US, on the other hand it being "Sin City" aka Las Vegas. What is allowed what is not, some state allow some things as others don't. So repackaging of services with pseudonym's is not unheard of either.... In the (I believe) 70's there was this crack down on nudist magazines because between the actual harmless nudists consumers there also were child predators that looked at them with different eyes. Just like all sex-related topics can be coded with talk.... and all communities have certain codes; that's just the Tea. Why it is so important to be educated on these things so you won't end up in trouble. Think red-bottom high heel shoes, they used to be a code for prostitution. You could spot a prostitute by her red-bottom high heel shoes. But then it became a fashion trend, and plenty of non-sex working women wore red-bottom high heel shoes... Some might have experienced cat-calling, or being propositioned and not knowing the code she spoke might have been part of that problem. Or the Handkerchief code in the 80's in the gay community: The handkerchief code, also known as the hanky code or the flagging system, is a way of communicating sexual preferences and interests within the LGBT community, especially among gay men. The handkerchief code uses different colors and patterns of handkerchiefs worn in the back pocket to indicate what one is looking for or offering in a sexual encounter. The handkerchief code was a discreet and covert method of signaling in times when being openly gay was dangerous or illegal. But then youngsters saw this thought it looked cool, also in the music industry and without understanding the cultural appropriation that took place. Which leads to miscommunications, and possibly "abuse" situations.
When I was young it was the single earring in a pierced ear. Gay men wore it in a certain ear lobe and straight men in the other one. I could never remember which side. Only prostitutes wore white shoes in the 70s and then they came into fashion in the 80s when white was a predominant colour for women in the mid to late 80s.
@@lemsip207 I don't know when you were young, but in my youth having your ear pierced as a boy/man was getting out of the social taboo, worse where other types of piercings. Most people could not remember what side was code for what, besides that it didn't really matter. In Western Europe, since I am Dutch not American: The left earlobe was the side that you were "straight" I got my ear pierced when I was 12. 1992/'93 I remember this being the critical issue, what side. The right was "the gay side"... especially if you had both earlobes pierced, like girls. But there was not an amount of piercings, I had 3 in my left earlobe and 1 in the ear-shell top ridge. And 2 in the ear-shell top ridge of the right ear. I've also had a tongue and lip piercing. I was never called gay for my piercings. Oh, and later in life I realized I was gay, so the fashion again mixes up with codes. I was gay and had my left ear pierced and not my right earlobe. The custom of pierced ears for men have differed throughout time. Think pirates but not just pirates and non-Christian cultures. This also goes along side with the social views on tattoo's. The teardrop tattoo now days does not automatically mean that person killed a person. But this was what it once stood for. Multiple tears for multiple kills. Then there were "grievers" who wanted teardrops for their dead parents etc. And some artists care more about making money than warning the person about the code, and not making the tattoo. Similar to tattoos with names in them that are not your children. The white shoes code I didn't know about, but thank your for pointing out. I'll look into it, because I find stuff like this interesting factoids.
@schiffelers3944 I wore white shoes in the early 90s but wouldn't have dared to in the 70s. I don't think you could get them in most shops then. It was mostly brown, grey or black. Even green or red would be unheard of then. White and pastel coloured shoes became more common in the 80s.
@@lemsip207 I wore or maybe I should write whore white shoes on my wedding day [2004], with a white suit, a black over shirt and white tie, with a blue rose in the breast pocket. I was talking about the shoe soles. Not the shoes in general, and what was labeled/seen as red back then was not the same red as now days. There are these ancient shoe soles found, and in a museum of sex. I am not sure anymore on Ancient Greek or Ancient Roman, never the less the soles left a print in the soil saying follow me.
This entire thing is wild, thanks again for great content. I have friends who are in the lifestyle. I am a marriage monogamous person. Nothing wrong with doing things the way you wanna be doing, but what they did to you was abusive.
Thank you Kirsten for sharing some of your life story with all of us. 💗 I have heard of and experienced a lot in my lifetime thus far, but I have never heard of a place quite like the one that you worked at after leaving Mormonism. It is wonderful to see how much you have healed since then and are now able to have such a positive outlook on your life in spite of the difficulties that you had to endure. And thank you Shelise for having Kirsten on and giving her safe space to share her story with all of us. 💞
This was such a great episode and conversation about something that happens way too frequently in less ‘Obvious’ ways. The go along mindset in corporate America commonly trains young professionals that HH and drinks at work dinners with clients in town is part of the job. It took a true friend to shed light on this for me. That all those uncomfortable dinners weren’t a necessary part of the real estate business. From 25-35, I genuinely thought it was all part of the job, so many uncomfortable hours with older men… ugh what a hidden devaluation of myself. I always felt like I had to be twice as committed as a male counterpart, nevertheless, somehow entertaining clients still always fell to me. Thanks again for the light you shed.❤
1:01:21 Even if you are weird, that is okay. It is okay to be yourself. What is weird to some is not always weird to others. LOL yes you did Kirsten, the pendulum swings 😉 and you found middle ground and silver linings. This was a nice story, in the end. But looking at the internet on the One Love Temple aka Sea Mountain Resort. I still think Kirsten should do something more to give attention to the wrongs going on there. It looks like they are still operating. Listen if people don't actively and loudly speak up and out...things will not change. There were plenty of illegal things going on according to the internet searches I did today while listening in amazement and trying to figure things out. His name is public... a google search gave it... Why not use it... I went on a search to find out more on the owners. Dewey Wohl and Julie Wohl. Also if it is open, honest and transparent there would be no issues... but it is coded with intent. And some of that intention is abusive. But I also found it funny, not being patient enough so to speak... and a little later you would say similar as my reaction was. I called out the prostitution before you did after some internet search results... *Kirsten you are not a bad person, for having made bad decisions. Once you understood better, you acted differently.* That shows growth, and strength.
I googled the owners name and I found a article from 2019 where Clark County had lawsuit after them in Las Vegas Review-Journal. I hope I can repost the article written by Briana Erickson in March 16, 2021: A judge has dismissed Clark County’s lawsuit against an advertised “nude luxury retreat” that was accused of operating as an unlicensed business. The dismissal comes after the county and the defendants - which were accused of running an unlicensed business out of two adjacent homes on East Harmon Avenue - filed an agreement to dismiss all claims. “Our main goal was to shut down the illegal operation, and we believe we accomplished that goal,” Chief Deputy District Attorney Rob Warhola said. The lawsuit was filed in 2019 against Dewey and Julie Wohl and also named Sea Mountain One Love Temple and Zen Temple as defendants. At the time, the temple was advertised in a Las Vegas travel magazine as a “nude luxury retreat” with a 24-hour dayclub and nightclub. District Judge David Jones dismissed the case Monday without prejudice, which means Clark County is free to bring another lawsuit forward on the same grounds. But the defendant’s attorney, Christopher Reade, said that would not be likely. “The dismissal was part of discussions with the district attorney,” he said. “My clients appreciated the district attorney’s good faith and understanding in reaching an accord to dismiss.” Property records show that the Wohls sold the homes at 2461 and 2471 E. Harmon Ave. in December to a woman named Divinity Cox for a total of $710,000. Cox could not be reached for comment on Tuesday. The county’s lawsuit had asked Jones to shut down the business and order the owners to pay more than $15,000 in unpaid taxes, fees and interest. It was filed after a code enforcement investigation found signage for Sea Mountain One Love Temple placed around the two homes’ shared backyard pools. The county had designated the home at 2461 E. Harmon Ave. as a place of worship under its previous ownership. The Wohls bought the homes for $610,000 in late 2016 from James Stanford and his wife, Lynn Morris, who transformed the homes into a Buddhist meditation center and operated them as such for more than five years. But the county’s lawsuit accused the Wohls of using both homes as a commercial spa, nightclub, bar, motel and retail store. Food also was being served there without proper permitting from the Southern Nevada Health District, according to the lawsuit. In a response to the complaint, Reade wrote in court documents that his clients were protected under their constitutional rights of freedom of religion and freedom of assembly. When a reporter attempted to reach the temple by phone Tuesday, the line went straight to voicemail. “One Love Temple is closed. Thank you,” the voice on the other end said. “We remain in your prayers.”
The website says mixed couples and single women only. So if you aren't part of a couple and are male take a female friend with you and pretend to be a couple. I think the number of unattached women there should equal the number of unattached men. Swingers clubs often allow a few unattached women but the rest are couples.
If I thought even one person *would* be nude there, I wouldn't be at all interested in going there. I wouldn't even be comfortable seeing other people nude. I'm *REALLY* not interested in seeing people naked. At all. I'm not comfortable being around people who enjoy being naked around others. I just think it's really icky and weird. Yuck
@@carolfulton-kennedy2482 I know right! I would have walked out right there and then! She said they were offering a good wage and she was desperate for money. But even so there are just some lines that you don't cross. And if you do cross them it doesn't lead anywhere good! 🤦🏻♀️
I really would appreciate if you'd do the trigger warnings/content warnings before the "intro" if it contains casual assault descriptions. I get that you try to put the "most interesting" things into the "teaser", but I really don't think this content is perfect for the "most extreme things that are said in the interview condensed down to a few seconds" approach, but I guess it's the best way to gain some people's attention. I'd usually not say anything, and instead just assume that I am just triggered and might not be part of the intended audience, but so far I thought that survivors are part of your intended audience. I dunno. I think many people might benefit from content warnings instead of the quotes, out of context, but at least before hearing them. I do find your podcast generally really nice and interesting, and I appreciate how well and nuanced the interviews are. Thank you for considering 💜
I do think trigger warnings could be necessary but at the same time just reading the title of the video makes it incredibly obvious that some kind of assault would happen
The one thing that I did not hear you discussing is peer pressure. Peer pressure can be as damaging as pressure from above, and is frequently more insidious because it is more subtle. At least, when your superior or authority figure gives a command, you more or less know the costs of fighting and escaping. But your peers can get you to do things that your superiors cannot.
Not to be mean, I work service myself, and also not to sound arrogant... but you are also supposed to be "attractive" - as waitress/waiter, hostess/hosts, barmaid/barman, etc. You are there to serve and attract customers, with your personality, skills and looks. Why you in most settings are also not allowed to wear rings, or jewelry, that is not just only for personal safety reasons. It is to appear single, so you can sell more. You have to be "friendly" and "nice" and have an open and inviting personality; things that in different social settings could also be perceived/mistaken as flirting. Make eye contact, etc. then that also helps with tips, and tip culture in US is different than in the EU. Sex sells is just a fact of life at this point. Fear & Desire are the strongest motivators of human psychology. The fear doesn't often get used in general, in the EU. But in the US the medicine commercials and those for lawyers & insurances are full on fear as motivation most often. But not always; here in the Netherlands there is the insurance commercial most people know. Even Apeldoorn bellen; they use humor and jokes mixed in with "fearful"/"stressful" situations. Like a bride cake delivery, and the driver driving extreme slow and careful, since he has the multi layered cake in the back of the delivery van. While arriving towards the venue having to make an emergency break for a mother duck with her ducklings... and the wedding cake splattering against the rear windows of the delivery van. Even Apeldoorn bellen (Centraal Beheer). [Translated; Just call Apeldoorn] Centraal Beheer is the name of the insurance company, and the head office is located in Apeldoorn. You should be able to find some of their commercials on RUclips also. This slogan has been used since 1986, I don't know any better being born in 1980. Psychology has been deliberately been used in sales for decades. I first got introduced to psychology in my sales educations (Netherlands) age 14. That was what sparked my interests into psychology as a possible follow up education.
I have participated in nudist events and it was so comfortable and amazing. If you have to resort to this it is awful. I am so sorry this happened to you! Side note love BOTH y'all's tops lol
Wow that's just cookoo. I wonder if the neighborhood was aware of what was happening in that house. I know that you have to sanction curtain things for a business in residential areas. Like parking and only open during certain times a day until curtain times a day. I wonder how they were able to pass in society as a Buddhist temple with round beds and black lights. Health inspectors, fire marshell and Osha all randomly do inspections in most places have to make inspections 4 times a year. They are suppose to be spuratic and done without notice so they can see how things are really done. But a lot of times the inspector will give you one or 2 inspections and if you pass them without any major issues they will start warning you about when they will give you the next inspection. It really makes me wonder how they got away with it.
I love Kirsten's nails. Interesting that its a Buddhist temple/nude spa & yet that first website claims it is a Judeo-Christian mission of one love. Buddhism & Judeo-Christianity are different to start with. Also it seems odd that its a home in a neighbourhood, (I picture a subdivision home) but was a temple with multiple pools & guests on the grounds, which makes it sound like its on an acre or more of land. The whole place seems so deceptive/coercive & non-consensual. I'm so sorry Kirsten that you were pushed into viewing/being touched by others without your consent because even with your interview, you were still not given the whole truth. I'm happy you realized that this time was not what you wanted for your life and how unfortunately it could affect the lives of others, and thank you for opening up. I'm also glad it helped you find a middle ground for your life.
Kirsten, my heart goes out to you. My nieces & nephews have been raised in evangelical Christian purity culture. I'm terrified for how that has not prepared them for the real world on any level. It's also damaging to their self-esteem and how they view themselves if they do anything that makes them feel they're "impure" and "unworthy."
“They were having sex over there and I was like and I was not expecting this it all.” No one was honey! And you are more beautiful now it shines from inside and out. You have been on a journey and where you are now looks good on you! Thank you ladies for creating a safe space to learn about the world.
I am not a Mormon, I always lived in the secular world, but I would still be absolutely shocked if I was seeing people have sex right in front of me; regardless of where I worked or if it was “Vegas!,” the land of “what happens here stays here.” Without a doubt, what you experienced was sexual coercion. They customers are paying for the experience of voyeurism and getting off on it; and because it “was your job”, you were forced into participating in their sex play, even though you didn’t consent. The staff showed you rooms where couples could easily go to do their thing together in private, and no one with authority ever asked you if you are you okay with seeing couples sexually engage in public spots of the ‘resort’. I have a feeling the owners made sure to NOT ask because they didn’t want you to say no and once you were employed, they had the upper hand (not to mention, the cover of plausible deniability if you ever decided to formally make a complaint about their business practices to the licensing and employee-protection orgs.) They clearly wanted you for eye candy for their guests, and they were hoping that once they got your foot in the door you’d just adapt and accept their “lifestyle” with no questions asked. That IS a violation of your consent; let us very clear about that. I actually have a somewhat similar story. When I retired from the Army I was suffering from a wicked case of complex-ptsd and didn’t know what I was going to do with myself. After becoming an adult, the military life was all I’ve ever known and I felt out of place in “normal” society, so a 9-5 wasn’t going to work at that time for me. I I ended up moving back to my hometown and reconnected with family and friends. One person I was close to had a girlfriend who was working at a nearby strip club in West Virginia- a fully nude strip club; and they served alcohol. Customers could actually buy you drinks, and you earned money from just sitting and talking to them while getting drunk. That sounded fabulous to lost-in-the-sauce me who was coping with much deeper issues and residual trauma. This person who worked there kept telling me all these amazing stories about how much money she made, and saying that I would be perfect for the job and that I would get so much in tips because I had “such a beautiful body.” (When you were talking about the flattery they kept giving you and how it mentally and emotionally threw you off course, I felt that in the core of my being.) I finally agreed to a trial run and started out as a bartender/server/floor entertainment (the drinker who didn’t dance on stage 😂), but it didn’t take long before management offered me a job dancing. I knew it was coming eventually, and the pressure was great because the other girls would jibe me and say things like, “what? are you too good to do what we do?” I just couldn’t wrap my mind around getting onstage fully nude, but I felt pressured to “move forward” and not be labeled the prudish, stuck-up girl; so management told me I could just sell private lap dances and Jacuzzi rooms to make some extra money and still work primarily as a server. We wore lingerie when in the club, but no one (not even the official dancers) walked around totally nude in the club- that was reserved for the stage only. So this sounded like a decent compromise to me. I felt like I was showing the other girls that I was a team player and didn’t think I was better than anyone else working there. And because the state regulations said that anytime a customer was within an arm length you HAD to have underwear on, I felt like I was shifting my boundaries but not tossing them aside completely. (I know, I was making excuses because I felt compelled to and was being told by everyone else that I was “acting like a princess.” Plus the money was a huge enticement- that’s for sure! So yes, I caved. ‘The love of money’ ad all that jazz…) Originally, I thought that the private lap dances wouldn’t make me feel as vulnerable as the idea of being fully nude on stage; but, man, was I stupid! I didn’t understand that the bouncers were paid extra to “overlook” rule violations like the underwear law or the customer’s ability to actually touch us- especially if they were known as a big spender! And I thank God above that I never dared to do a jacuzzi room because I finally figured out that this was a code for a reserved private room, no bouncer but just a camera, and that girls would sell sexual activity to the customer that could be hidden below the water where the cameras couldn’t see!! (They were literally prostituting girls out of the club while claiming to follow all state regulations) The final night I worked there, I was pressured to sell a $500 jacuzzi room and I panicked and just left- like literally walked out in my lingerie with just a coat on. The manager called me and threatened me saying if I ever wanted to work there again I needed to come back and complete this sell- the club made $300 of every room sold, and he wanted that money. He knew exactly what was expected of me up there, but just like in the private “lap dances,” would claim ignorance if asked directly what was going on. I felt totally coerced, deceived, humiliated, and uncertain. Was I making “too big a deal” out of things? This was a guaranteed $200 tip and I was making around ~$1500 a week only working 3 days out of 7. Did I want to suddenly lose my only source of income over something as “silly” as a hand job under the cover of bubbles?? I doubted everything about myself and was made to feel like “a baby” because I wouldn’t just “get on with it and make that money!” Everybody acted like these transactions were totally normal and I was being “extra” and hard to work with! Like you explained, I was seriously shamed for not just going along with it. That was the end of my career working at Southern exposure in WV (yes, I call the club out by name!) But still to this day, I feel like it’s my fault. I should have known better. And I blame myself for getting that far into it just because everybody else was so fine with what was going on. I know our stories were very different, but the vibe felt the same to me. I just wanted to let you know that you’re not alone. You weren’t “being ridiculous.” And businesses that cater to these type of services should be much more upfront with their employees about what is expected of them BEFORE the employee is put into a violating situation they never expected to be in! Sorry so long, just wanted to say, “you’re not alone and it’s not your fault!”
I can’t even count the times this girl’s vulnerability made me laugh out loud but at the same time my heart goes out to her. Her attitude about everything is spot on though.
Normal or not, if you don't want to be hugged, clothed or naked - you have the right to decline consent to that hug. Yes people will find that weird and strange - if their (sub)culture expects differently. You probably will also be treated differently, for better or worse. But it is being true to yourself. And if you don't fit into that (sub)culture that is fine, there are plenty of others you might have a better mesh with. Like you said, this is specific to the culture created in the Sea Mountain Resort, aka One Love Temple.
there just need to be standards and accountability, so that the good ones or at least their operations that provide good works can enjoy tax exemption, but the ones that aren't or their operations -- like the Mormon's vast property holding companies -- that aren't, don't get the benefit.
@@katwitanruna yes. one of the problems now is that 'religious' organizations are exempted from the financial reporting requirements that all other non-profits are -- so they are completely unaccountable and the bad players end up getting away with stuff like this.
Hi to Both Shelise and Kirsten!!! Sending you both Gentle Virtual Hugs and Positive Vibes 💖💖💖 from Miami Florida USA!!! Kirsten: first of all thank you sooo much for sharing not only this life experience, but also your experiences growing up mormon, working at EFY, and your time at BYU... I keep thinking as I am watching this video today (11/15/2023), that the craziness has got to level out at some point in her story... Not in the sense of discounting or diminishing your experience...but more in the sense of OMG how much worse IS THIS going to get 😮😳😱🤬😳🤯🤯🤯...?!!??? I am 1000% all for a healthy and body positive attitude towards everyone and every kind of sex and kink out there... While I might never understand some of the kink out there- especially those involving poop/pee...but hey as Shelise says "Okay, you do you boo."... but I digress...If that's your jam then go for it, I wish you well and lots of orgasms... What I can't and won't support is a crazy, non-consensual, coercive, lying, noncommunicative, law breaking, creepy as bunch of weirdos organization like this place. There is a level of trust AND more so RESPONSIBILITY that has to go into a place like this... not only for the safety and fun of the guests but as well as the staff. I am sorry that you were subjected to that. And even more so...PROUD of you for sticking up for yourself and having the personal understanding of yourself that you deserved better and got the F out of there. Another thought on this... Back in the 1980's during the beginning of the HIV/AIDS crisis, a lot of public bath houses and other meeting/sex positive/other establishments as well as many gay individuals and groups, DID NOT WANT to initially change their "safety" habits, this initial hesitancy and selfishness allowed the wider spread and resulting devastation of HIV/AIDS... Of course society and our government helped even less...but that's another story... But if sex establishments once again fall into unsafe practices there could be a greater spread of disease once again.... I dont know... my brain is just floored when I hear these stories... Shelise and Kirsten... Y'all are both AWESOME!!!
As someone being perfectly happy in nude sauna it's disturbing to hear about someone pressured into that. Every place I go to has pools expecting bathing suit and some that don't with clear seperation
Oh wow 😯 Ty for sharing ur story Kristen . No one should ever feel pressured into doling something they are uncomfortable with I’m sorry this happened to you I wish you well and much love 💕
In a true swingers club/lifestyle club, it's not even that "No means no" - it's "Yes means yes", meaning that if you don't get the word "yes" or "ok", you do not proceed. Even in those types of clubs, you can still be assaulted and they know it and are extremely careful about it. You are still required and more importantly, allowed, to give consent before someone touches you... Regardless of the fact that you're in a lifestyle club. I'm surprised these places- apparently they have more than one location- haven't been shut down yet because they are not operating like a proper lifestyle club should be. *** It doesn't surprise me that there were cameras everywhere, there should have been actually. They needed to protect themselves from someone crying rape or abuse and the only way to do that was with cameras. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me either if some of those people were on amateur websites without their knowledge or permission. The owners of this place sound extremely shady and again, I can't believe they're getting by with all of this.
Kirsten is very courageous to share her story with us. Thank you Kirsten, it must have been hard but I am sure that your message will help someone else. In her testimony when she said she was asked to go see a couple engaged in sex if they wanted drinks, my though was that they were trying to get her to participate . Kirsten, you are a wonderfull person and I am sure that you are cherished by your family. I never would have suspected clubs or businesses like that existed, I only saw them in TV shows like CSI or Victim's unit. Talking about TV shows, I remember an episode in CSI Las Vegas with Grisom and a Dominatrix, that episode is one of my favorites, the dialogue between the two was well done.
There are many nudist resorts where nudity is a requirement, for that exact reason, to deter people just there to ogle. However, this is made VERY clear on all the materials and they are often called something like "Bare Oaks." The policy is not unusual, what is unusual is being deceptive and calling a nudist resort a "temple." Also, very weird to mix nudism with sexuality, most nudist resorts are specifically NOT sexual, family-friendly affairs.
And I think if someone was genuinely having mixed feelings or second thoughts, they probably wouldn't throw them out, just ask them to be discreet so as not to make the nude guests feel uncomfortable, maybe avoid certain parts of the resort, stay close to your room or use the hiking trails but not the pools... etc. Like in a place like that people wouldn't be bullying you!!! ffs!!
Children being nude around adults, or even partially-clothed around nude adults, is NOT “family-friendly”. 🤨 I’m all for consenting adults doing what they want and how they want, but a minor that is brought there by their parents can not consent. As a person who worked in a fully-nude strip club, I’m not being a prude, but I am for protecting children at all costs!
Great interview, Shelise. I know a couple who are into a BDSM swinger's group and yeah, extra women are fine, but gay guys - no, even if some of the "straight" men would love to play with another man. Sounds like there's a lot of misogyny involved in that place. They'd probably welcome a lesbian couple (as long as they were open to have men at least watch - weird fantasy I don't get). I doubt this was a cult, but the swingers scene is very private and hidden. Gay men are much more open about it. If you want a non-monogamous relationship, guys tend to work it out (or break up), and we've had bathhouses for years. Polyamory (imho) tends to be a modern version of plural marriage - tends to be the guy wants more than one "wife", and not the other way around. Terrible that she had to deal with that sort of coercive situation. I would have left at "get undressed". My thing is STIs - who could be passing what to whom?
I knew a woman who lived with “2 husbands”, and there are societies where they practice Polyandry & Group Marriage (3 or 4 women with 3 or 4 men)… I would be curious at what they did to screen out STI’s, or if they relied on condoms to prevent transmission.
2 things - 1) Places like that rely on you being silent because you’re mortified, embarrassed or humiliated & stay silent; 2) I’ve been to clothing optional places & had a gf who wanted to take me to one - In no case was nudity required or public sex allowed - They might have “Cooling Off Rooms” where couples who were overheated could relieve themselves. That place was simply a Sex-Club. They should have been honest about what they were doing!
15:09 I think everyone’s mind is playing on them like that, like a way to calm themselves or when someone wants to believe in smth for one reason or another, it is a way to try to close their eyes so that they could continue hoping it would turn in fact ok.
I've never heard of being nude in Buddhist religion. That's strange how their websites show different things with different names. That's deceiving. I've never been to Las Vegas. Thanks for sharing.
1:01:15 that’s a great advice-it is important to follow your intuition even when you don’t see why you don’t feel comfortable (even cia and other agents can abort a mission they don’t feel it, so you can too not feeling guilty)!
My cousin has a cabin in a nudist resort that's very different from this place. Her resort strictly forbids public sexual activity. Clothing is genuinely optional everywhere except at the beach on a pond, where they actually have had problems with pervy people coming just to ogle. For that reason, photography is against the rules. Every time I've visited, it's been a good experience. Even so, I really don't get why being nude is so important to people (including my cousin and her husband). I don't mind taking my clothes off, but the experience isn't one that I'd seek out on my own. What strikes me the most is that my cousin and her husband are involved with the governing board, which has eternal conflicts. To me, those hassles are the kind of thing I'd only want to deal with on my day job. I haven't gone there in almost two decades for a couple of reasons. One is that my wife has a genetic condition and is very self-conscious about her body. I think she's beautiful, but she doesn't, so she's not comfortable getting nude in front of strangers. The other is that we adopted two kids from an orphanage, and with all the issues they have to deal with, we didn't want to add more. We will be going back, though, because my cousin just moved, and her cabin in the nudist resort will be the best place to visit her.
There is a legitimate Tantric mediation retreat for couples, they learn to practice nude meditation together in private. It's not about sex and definitely not swingers, it's about the shared chi energy.
I have been a Naturist/Nudist all my adult life, and have never been to a retreat or anything else that was anything other than strict clothing optional. No one was ever forced to be naked. I have frequently seen women who were having their period wearing shorts or bathing suit bottoms, because even tampons sometimes leak and you have a string hanging down. One guy, who had a colostomy bag, always wore a t shirt and stayed out of the pool or spa. I suppose those people would have forced him to humiliate himself in front of everyone. Accomodations are made. The point is to be comfortable emotionally, physically and spiritually. Also, I have never been to a place that allowed public sex. One place even had a big sign that said "No Public Sex". A Swingers gathering or party ( not something I am involved with) is entirely different than a Naturist retreat. Any situation where they *lie*, and they did lie, should be a major red flag! It is also a huge insult to the Buddhist faith to claim to be a Buddhist spiritual center as a "cover". Those two very different web sites for the same place was truly creepy. Thank both of you for speaking out against this exploitive, dishonest for lack of a better term SCAM.
I find the managers interviewing her fully clothed when she was forced to be naked, to be a really sinister power move. How come they were the only ones allowed to be clothed in the whole place? They said anyone that is clothed is a predator, so....If you listen closely, manipulative people will tell you exactly what they're doing by what they accuse others of.
Exactly!!
It sounds like one of those nightmares where you accidentally show up to the interview naked and everyone in the office is clothed and laughing at you.
Interviews, drinking and nudity… love that! A solid combination.
Yeah that was really creepy and messed up!
Wait, they were CLOTHED???? I thought she said they were also nude! My god that is ducking horrific.
My husband and I belonged to a nude hippie natural hot springs resort in Colorado, in the 1970’s, early 1980’s, never felt harnessed, just felt natural, no problems, soaking in these pools high in the Colorado mountains, Hiding behind spirituality and Zen Buddhism is so low!
I'm so happy to hear you had a positive experience with an actual zen nudist community!
@@CultstoConsciousness That is not what she said. She belonged to a nudist colony. It was not a Zen place. She said that it is low to hide behind alleged Zen Buddhism.
Real Zen communities have been known to have clothing optional hot springs, which is not unusual in Japan. But they would never go about their daily business nude.
ALSO, Zen is NOT a Judeo-Christian religion, so you would know that something is fishy already, if you knew that.
As long as it's above board it's OK and everyone knows it's a nudist resort before going there.
@@milascave2It's normal to bathe naked together in Japan as they have large communal round baths but they shower before getting into the bath. Families bathe together and also strangers of both sexes.
That place reminds me 😅of Zegg south of Berlin in Germany. It's an intentional permaculture community that takes paying guests. But they are not naked most of the time as it's too cold most of the year round and they would need protective clothing for the work they do.
Not “I was violated in a way.” Sweetie…you were violated and I am so angry for you. I wish I could help you get revenge or justice or something. This breaks my heart.
I don't feel like revenge is a useful aim.
As someone not violated that way I don't have that desire BUT it's urgently important to me to protect future people from such
Having elementary school sex Ed (Human anatomy, expect periods, bodily autonomy is important, these civic institutions are there to protect vulnerable people) is important
As a 60+woman that been to bdsm-clubs in europe I have NEVER FELT MOORE SAFE then at these clubs. I Done it since I was 20 and I been harazed on the subway, ”normal” pubs and clubs but never ever at a bdsm-club.
Everybody are welcome. And this community have moore stict rules then so called normal people.
And drugs and alkohol is not allowed. Im so sorry for your experiens. Makes me cry💞
This is an amazing video! I learned a term called "crap-fitting" from a woman named Anna Runkle, and I feel like that's what Kirsten is describing when she's just like, "Yep. This is fine!" I'm a former Jehovahs Witness and could never put a finger on how I felt when I would shove my feelings away and just "be okay" with whatever was happening, even if I was uncomfortable AF. I love these interviews, you do incredible work, Shalese! ❤
THANK YOU for putting a word to what I've done my whole life! "Crap fitting". Gosh, that's _so_ spot on. 😢
I love Kirsten! To have lived through so much and to still be bubbly, happy, sassy and with a fab sense of humour is just awesome. Total legend.
In 2007 I lived on a property with a bunch of people who wanted to create something like this in Northern California, although they weren't honest about it either, they claimed to be the opposite of what they were. The attraction for most of us was a work-for-rent arrangement in a beautiful setting but the guys running the operation were subtly exploiting us financially and psychologically. As soon as I called somebody out for predatory behavior that I witnessed it became clear that my life was in danger and left the state. I warned the women to get out before it became dangerous and then got my family to buy me a plane ticket. I moved back home and started a new life.
In my experience , clothing optional communities and resorts do tend to lean strongly towards shaming people who are shy. Once I had accepted the idea that I was safe being nude around others it was not a problem and it was a liberating experience that deeply altered my sense of shame in a positive way... but it also seemed to open the door for others to a lot of excessive behavior that prompted me to not want to be around those settings.
Thank you for sharing that! Wow that’s scary. I’m glad you got out ok
Yes, thanks for sharing. There are so many predators in the self help liberation communities.
@@magtag853 It wasn't a self help liberation community. Where did you get that idea? I'm really curious, somebody used that term with me earlier this year and I assumed they were nuts but now that I hear somebody else using it I'd love to know where it originates from.
@@johncaccioppo1142 well u said it was liberating to go without clothes. So that is what I call a self help liberation. Many of these utopian groups claim to have this as their purpose, but it really is a lure or hook for control. I am happy you escaped early!
@@magtag853 I apologize, I realize the confusion now. The group I was talking about was not a nudist group, those were different times and places. Living in Northern California exposed me to a lot of weird groups and situations but I could have been clearer in telling the story.
As someone who has been involved in the local BDSM/sex-positive and poly communities for decades, the fact that they were not fully up front about the nudity and other requirements just comes off as a HUGE red flag to me. Any legit organization, whether they're naturists or swingers or whatever, will be absolutely clear about who they are and what they expect *well before* you ever get to the point where you're expected to participate. And they will almost invariably (space permitting of course) have an entrance lobby/foyer where you're expected to be wearing something reasonably street-legal, no full or partial nudity.
The fact that it was in a residential area is not _necessarily_ a red flag, depending on the tenor of the neighborhood; but IME these sorts of facilities are generally located in industrial or office park environments, if not more rural retreats. Places where a certain level of privacy and discretion can be easily maintained, and you're not likely to have people randomly wandering by.
As for the "Zen" aspect, that comes off so much like the typical western appropriation of the aesthetic and superficial rituals of Buddhism, without any of the actual understanding of the philosophy and worldview behind it; like so much of the "New Age spiritualism" rife in the west. Especially egregious in this case, since sexual rituals aren't even part of Ch'an (Zen) Buddhist practice, that's from Vajrayana Buddhism, a completely different tradition entirely. Zen is derived from an early form of Mahayana Buddhism; the three primary branches of Buddhism being Theravada (the oldest and "purest", going back to Siddhartha Guatama's original disciples), Mahayana (the largest and most varied worldwide, branching off into numerous different schools, Ch'an/Zen being the most well-known), and Vajrayana (the youngest, practiced primarily in Tibet, and which incorporates many indigenous religious traditions the other sects don't).
Absolutely red flags, all around! We've never been part of the lifestyle, but have been entertainers (music) for an area club. Their rules did not include everyone needing to be naked, you could be fully dressed if you wished.
They also had what I thought was a great rule in that males could only attend IF they were accompanied by a female. Females could attend on their own. It was a safety first issue and they definitely didn't want males behaving in predatory manners with anyone there. I never once felt unsafe.
@@starri9103 The clubs I attended required all members and their guests to read and sign a list of the rules and restrictions, so everyone who was involved knew what was expected of them before ever being allowed in.
They had the same restrictions regarding unaccompanied males (with a few exceptions for long-term members in good standing), for the same reason, and a blacklist of people who violated rules badly enough. The clubs were definitely accepting of LGBTQ+ folks, but I don't quite recall their rules regarding gay men (IIRC they were also required to come as couples, not solos).
I did personally know a few people who were blacklisted, one was a male who was blacklisted pre-emptively due to his reputation at other clubs; the other a male and female couple who had a, shall we say, less-than-stellar record regarding consent and other female guests (IOW,they were skeevy unicorn hunters).
Very much with the appropriation 😞, also as someone who’s BDSM curious and self positive , it feels incredibly scummy to know this essentially sounds like a sex resort but they market themselves as a zen resort, that’s not right at all .
This so much!!! From the first paragraph to the end re: the typical Western appropriation of Buddhism for the "aesthetics" 🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️🤦🏻♀️ So well said! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼
This comment was was very helpful & educational for someone who's never been in ANY of those groups, religions, etc. I feel so .... Ignorant of so many things. I might need to go on a quest to learn more about some different things. Lol. But thanks for the helpful & very informative comment! 💖💕
Sadly, there are many groups and even just people posing as "sexual healers" "Tantric Goddesses" "Tantric Sex healers" using predatory tactics like this and shaming you if you won't do the things they recommend. Making you feel as though you are not "sexually healthy" or my personal favorite "not in touch with your divine feminine". They shame you in to letting people touch you, manipulate you, etc.
Most of my work done in St. George is helping people heal from these groups and "healers" who manipulate them into sex abuse.
Not to mention, their favorite targets are women who have just left sexually oppressive cults.
Truly one of the biggest red flags I've ever experienced. I went to a Pagan event and the men kept talking about sex magic and helping/"worshipping" the divine feminine of others. I never went to another one from that group.
To Kirsten: girl, you went from the frying pan straight to the fire…… I feel so bad for the younger you. It sounds like you have done some intensive healing, you are amazing! To Shelise: thanks so much for these videos, it raises so much awareness. Love ya Girl!
❤️❤️❤️
Yes, it's important when leaving organised religion not to go to the other extreme. I trod carefully when I left religion, though I loved to drink alcohol. I needed a bit of numbing after the trauma of finding out how extreme they were which was the last straw.
Kristen! You are just as GORGEOUS now as you were in your 20’s! I appreciate your vulnerability as you shared things that should never have happened.
The courage is amazing! Thanks for Kirsten being so vulnerable here and open about her story so we can raise awareness and start to question things around. Props to this amazing woman and I appreciate her so much! Great for me to stay up late in China to enjoy the enlightenment and learn from others!
Thank you for your support!❤️🙌
It’s so easy to fall for the same or very similar situation to what you’ve left when you’ve been abused. And we need to point out those who take advantage of others no matter how they brand it. Ethics above all.
Yes, absolutely!
The transition AFTER leaving a cult is acutely challenging.
It sounds like to me that consent was at the heart of the problem with this "temple" - not necessarily s*x, nudity or swinging. To be clear, consent requires full knowledge, openness, ongoing verbal check-ins and a way out if it becomes too much. Manipulation, lies and rejection of bodily autonomy are antithetical to consent - and that's what appears was going on here.
By contrast, I volunteered at a kink club in downtown Chicago for a while (over a decade ago) and it was very strict when it came to consent. If people were playing out a "scene", you often had to get permission just to watch the scene, much less participate in any way. If there were consent violations, they were dealt with harshly. And they had education classes every month to ensure everyone could play safely and be fully informed.
Interestingly, I picked up on some discussions about a swingers club on the North side of Chicago where (at least at the time) consent was not protected and the owner ran the place like a king enjoying his personal harem. Nobody from the kink club I worked at had anything good to say about it and everyone was warned to stay away.
So there can always be good and bad out there. Get informed (maybe try the Savage Love or Off the Cuffs podcasts) and don't let manipulation tactics sway you. If you want to try something, try it. If not, don't. There's no shame in not being into everything someone else is into. My kinks are not yours and vice versa - and that's okay.
yes, that's my experience too -- there are many places and events that are rigorous about consent and respectful of people, and there are no real problems. and then there are some others where boundaries are blurred or it actually becomes exploitive, and that's no good....
I’ve found swingers spaces and kink spaces are very different
My wife and I have also frequented a lovely kink club. Some spaces are clothing mandatory. Most are optional, but it's alllllll about consent and honesty. Nobody pressures anyone, and if you did I have ZERO doubt the staff would kick them out and revoke their membership. It's honestly so great.
Obviously not what's happening here. 😢
Thank you for sharing your story, Kristen. I know it could not have been easy. I am so sorry this happened to you. These issues absolutely need to be brought to light. Thank you. And thank you for providing a platform for people to share these stories, Shelise. I appreciate that you pointed out how important consent and communication are for people who are actually in the lifestyle. This place is NOT a lifestyle club/spa/group. It boils my blood when people try to use alternative lifestyles as an excuse or cover for predatory behavior.
I'm a former mormer from SLC, but living in New Zealand. Here in NZ the term "lifestyle" means owning property with a home and small farm. I see the potential of some very unfortunate confusions...
!!!!PLEASE READ!!!!
I did some digging into the co-owners and founders of the company.
Very quickly I could definitely see some huge issues that weren't very covered in this video
The most important thing is that the business owner has (and does) also owned 1 or more "Explicit film company" (if you know what I mean) under several different DBAs and company names, all while owning not only the location in Las Vegas but other similar 'spas' in CA. This film company (or companies) has existed for decades. From reviews, this video, there are several reviews on their establishments as customers & being filmed and photographed without permission and subsequently promptly leaving sometimes they would mention that everyone else around them did the same once finding they were being filmed and photographed without permission.
This is without adopt extremely concerning. Though I don't want to go on the record saying this is a certainty using references to testimonials and documents on public record, though without having done hours of research or anything, it is quickly obvious there are implications of some serious personal & basic rights being violated in these establishments, potentially even more than what your video covers.
Keep in mind that these establishments are documented as 'churches' & one could deduce the likelihood of tax benefits for being a "church". Amongst other lawsuits documented, there was a lawsuit filed against the owners in 2019 by Clark County, (the county which Las Vegas is in) ..."asking for [it] to be closed down. Additionally, it is asking the owners to pay $15,000 in unpaid taxes, fees and interest...The lawsuit also claims that the [owners] made several modifications to the property and its pool and never obtained the necessary approvals or permits to make the modifications [&] never obtained a permit to serve food from the Southern Nevada Health District, according to the county.
Clark County says that the violations 'cause irreparable harm by compromising the health & safety of the residents of Clark County' & 'has & will continue to reduce property values, & has & will continue to compromise the serenity of the surrounding neighborhood.' "
(All [edits] were for remedy & not wanting to disclose actual addresses or names without channel permission. Local news reports & public records were used as sources, 13 news was the quotes).
If you can get this info out there, please do. This seems even more insidious than what was covered having so many DBAs/businesses especially when the differences of names is only by a -hyphen- is typically a red flag as It indicates a willful resistance to transparency.
Kirsten, your determination to expose dangerous people who try to benefit from exploiting & violating other people to make MONEY is commendable & worth more than an applause. You're brave in a world where such behavior shouldn't make you have to be. Your candid willingness to share helps this become closer to realit. Both you & Shalise are strong, beautiful humans. Your contributions are more valuable than you could know, now more than ever.
Thank you for sharing! So disgusting.
Thank you for sharing! So disgusting.
The most concerning thing to me was Kirsten’s (and possibly you) acceptance that you had to “go with the flow” after leaving Mormonism, rather than following your own instincts until you acclimatised to the general population. Also the idea that you didn’t really know what the general social mores were. Glad you both are now acclimatised, but I worry for others who are fresh out of a controlling situation. Truly hope channels like this help. 🌹
I agree! To me it's wild bc I'd never have believed I was in a cult or had any similarities to someone raised in a cult. BUT watching these channels & a few other creators who speak on deconstructing, has shown me that I VERY much have the same mentality & struggles as ALL of these lovely ppl! & Getting out of that religion from my childhood YEARS ago, I never deconstructed or changed my way of thinking & now I'm VERY much mindblown at how crazy it is bc I struggle w\ALL of these things. I was raised Southern Baptist & Pentecostal & I'm such a Ppl Pleaser to a debilitating standard, & have been conditioned to NOT ask questions & do what I was told. The list goes on & on. It's strange & scary & hopefully liberating.
I don't think I would be able to sit down on the chairs without asking for a clean towel first.
I listened to a woman on another channel talk about how she was a nanny for a family who was nudist and she said that at most resorts people have a towel with them for that very reason.
Ha ha, this is EXACTLY what I was thinking.
in not cult nudist clubs, its basically a rule, bring your own towel, its just common decency, and its obvious this cult has zero decency
That massage therapist could and should loose her license. Pressuring and non affirmative consent is against the ethical standards. What you did robed was assault 😢
I am not sure that she would have been a registered therapist, most likely she worked in a massage parlor.
@@chapman1569Exactly. Certainly was not a person who cared about upholding any professional standards and ethics, and highly doubt the “retreat” owners were worried about hiring certified massage therapists.
This whole thing reminds me of the time i got tricked into working at a massage parlour then got tricked into giving massages and then got propositioned and as a 20 year old drug addict who had no coping skills I had no idea how to speak up because I’m just a addict at a rub n tug.
I was almost tricked into working in one as I was looking for accommodation and one landlord ran a massage parlour. I worked full time at the time and was told I would get a reduced rent if I worked in the massage parlour part time. I declined.
It sounds like you're doing better now, I'm sorry you had that experience! I can relate and it's taken a long time but please know that you are worthy of a great life no matter what your decisions and thoughts have been in the past. 💗
Oh sweetheart, you are never "just" anything... And I hope you're doing better now. I don't care what your personal story is, you are a human being that deserves love and respect and I hope you know that. ❤
If you run a church, you shouldn’t be calling it a spa…
I am so sorry that this happened to you, and it’s inspiring to hear that you’re more confident about your boundaries now.
The good thing is that it’s becoming less common as we have more and more public conversations about what consent and coercion look like.
I’m glad that they let you have a clean break, and I hope the other location you mentioned is not run the same way.
I disapprove of unethical behavior. Nudism, Buddhism, and tantric practices can be great without the deception.
there can be reasons for screening out some people at legitimate nudist/naturist venues and events, where there can problems with voyeurs showing up -- as well as those trying to be inappropriately sexual, such as mixing in swinger 'Lifestyle' activities. but that's obviously not what was going on in this case, and in my experiences there's generally tolerance for well-intended guests who are genuinely uncomfortable with being nude.
thanks for being respectful of alternative lifestyles, and just calling out bad players and abusive, non-consensual practices. in my experience even in those communities it's good to have awareness that there are bad actors, particularly those who are sneaky (or even culty) about violating boundaries and twisting consent.
it's also worth being clear that nudism/naturism has long been traditionally very a non-sexual culture and doesn't really overlap much with other things; the 'swinger' Lifestyle is something of its own, adult-only resorts are a particular type of business that attract dedicated swingers as well as others, and polyamory and kink/BDSM are their own things that may or may not overlap with the others.
I understand the feeling when you are touched when you do not want it, it feels petrifying
I’m so, so sorry you went through that. Lord Jesus bless you.✝️❤️
i could imagine that the uncomfy people don’t just feel like the odd ones out and hang around to fit in, but also feel pressured to try to get their money’s worth, even if they’re uncomfortable :/ i’m so glad that she got out of these groups and is on a healing path 💗
Thank you for your vulnerability && courage telling this story, especially being the first whistleblower. This is disgusting, I’m so sorry you went through this! It’s easy to imagine the more I’ve watched how growing up in a cult can lend to more of these types of thing’s happening afterwards. They broke your boundaries down quickly, yet slowly over time until the moments like the massage where at that point it’s just another thing on the list. I hope you continue having a safe, beautiful life YOU are in control of your boundaries for.
Thank you, Elisa!❤️
Kirsten you are so articulate even when talking about difficult parts of your life. Such an inspiration, your strength is something else!
Right off the jump (~7:20), it's very troubling that this place markets itself as a Buddhist space, but then pulls (another) bait and switch and claims to be a "Judeo-Christian" space (which is problematic as a term in and of itself). Idk, it feels really icky and misleading to force a Christian perspective into a space which is billed as a Buddhist space initially, especially considering the power dynamics at play between the dominant Christian theology (esp considering the rising Christo-fascist movement in the US) and a minority religion like Buddhism. Very troubling, though likely not the most troubling thing about this place, lol.
Kirsten, congratulations on the incredible progression you've made in making this life truly yours. I couldn't help but relate to your journey, you from Mormon cult, and me from a polygamist one. I've been there too, wondering if I was the odd one for feeling that something wasn't quite right. But then, like you, I realized that if I had to question its normalcy, it probably wasn't. And yes, sometimes I find myself reminiscing about those innocent eyes that once saw the world through a different lens. Wishing you all the best may your life be filled with joy, fulfillment, and wonderful adventures.
Kirsten is adorable !!! Thank you for this wild and informative interview !!❤
Glad you enjoyed it!
Kirsten you are still absolutely GORGEOUS! I love your bubbly personality and it speaks volumes about your character esp. after ALL you have been through! Sending you so much love from Texas!!
This sounds like an interview for a position at the damn Bunny Ranch! My heart breaks for what you've been through. So glad that you are out and living a full life now!
I really like that this episode touches on how predatory groups lie online and sell discounts to attract victims. Anyone can really get sucked into cult-like situations and the damage is real!
That poor single girl hiding away with her book.... Imagine going in there as a woman thinking to have a spiritiual experience in a buddhist community and being forced to participate in a sexual cult instead. Yikes.
I also feel bad for those partners forced into that just beacuse their partner withheld info and got them there and paid already... Such scummy behavior... i hope their partners leave those scums because how could anyone tolerate such disrespect (and pushing such boundaries like that)??? 😡
She was the one being hit on by couples. Single women are called unicorns in the swinger scene.
Lots of groups talk about "The Lifestyle". Swingers use it more than the others: BDSM, some LGBT groups, Burners, Cruisers, even RVers, just to name a few. But yes, when it's referred to that heavily, it's always Swingers. It's annoying. The Swinging Lifestyle is far more accurate. But Swingers tend to hate the word Swinger. Some will say literally anything else to avoid using that word; they haven't figured out how to own it, yet. | That bait-and-switch that some partners did to one another is NOT okay in The Swinging Lifestyle. We do NOT tolerate those types of behaviors. Word gets around FAST. And yes, clothing not-optional violates all consent, which is paramount in The Swinging Lifestyle. | Single women are lauded in The Swinging Lifestyle. Single men are extremely limited and pay a LOT more to attend almost any party or event. | For whatever it's worth, they get good reviews among Swingers online who talk about it being all nude. So maybe if you are Swingers and you are aware of this, it's a fun place. Seems they have both Vegas and Palm Springs locations. | The reason for the religion front (aside from tax evasion) is protection. Religions are protected, but Swingers are not a protected class. It's not a new idea, but their's might be the biggest version of it.
All of the swinger groups I have ever seen have had the no single men allowed rule. I was forced to join a group because my husband wanted to be involved but they wouldn't let him in if I wasn't present. Now I was treated with utmost respect and never pushed to do anything I didn't want to do....but I am poly not really interested in casual sex. I have yet to see a swing group that allows homosexuality in their play parties. Oddly they claim that they are doing the no single men thing to protect women and that swinging is women centric but it sure as hell never felt like the group was ever female lead. I may be wrong and maybe there are groups that exist that do not have a problem with homosexual sex but I have yet to meet one.
Now the BDSM scene is the opposite as I've experienced it. I never went to a munch or meet where you were told what you could or had to accept. You do you is all I ever heard. I never felt nervous or afraid in the BDSM crowd....but again, my mileage may vary.
Even a lot of dance clubs will make single men wait outside if there are too many men and not enough women. Also lots of strip clubs allow women in free or discounted rate because they want women to come in. People dont want a sausage fest.
No, you're right. A lot of queer folks have convos about the gross vibe of "polyam/naturist" men who are clearly just toxic or even predatory, and then be the ones starting these communities. How sus it is that for those people it always seems to be one man and multiple women. With him as the ringleader. (Don't trust anything in this world thats strictly hetero 😂) In all seriousness though, you're picking up on these male-led phony feminist "body-pos" liars that just conflate women's lib and sexual lib movements in order to get these normalized-but-highly-fetishized environments. It is all very cult-y when I say it out loud.
All in all, your gut instinct is right. Trust your gut...
Wow this is awful they did this to you. I hope you have healed . That was totally manipulative whst they did. It's crazy how people manipulate younger women especially.
Thank you for validating and supporting!❤️
@@CultstoConsciousness of course. I always support and validate any victims of any abuse. I empathize with all of you too.
Thanks for courage to tell this story!
I think that was one of the best Linda listens I've heard so far! Love your channel keep up the good work, from a New Zealander who's never had religion in her life but finds everything you talk about absolutely fascinating! 😂
Thank you! I appreciate the support! 😁
Omg this is insane... Every time I thought it couldn't get more gross, it did! That these people exist, much less hide behind the false pretenses of being a Yoga Retreat to be a unicorn hunting safari is WiLd
I hope this story gets out so that more people aren't preyed upon, but I also don't wish that experience on anyone. Maybe she could release a book, that way at least she'll own her story. This is just so impressively brave to go public about at all.
So I only recently found your page, and I just have to say this was by far my favorite episode. She is absolutely adorable and so incredibly funny. I keep choking on my coffee. Her laugh is contagious.
Glad you enjoyed it! Welcome to C2C!
I would say that the couples and single women only in swinging in Europe is pretty common. Having been to clubs that are everyone welcome, and the couples and single women, the everyone welcome clubs can get (ironically) a bit seedy. I was at one in Berlin where it was dudes who literally didn't want to pay for the "all you can eat" brothels, (flat rate, fuck all night!) coming to get some at the swingers clubs. Same place was known for bringing in "paid hostesses" so there would be more women around. Another place I was at in Berlin was women and couples only fridays and saturdays, but then anyone at all the rest of the week, maintained strict rules. When a guy wasn't taking no for an answer, and was following me around, I mentioned it in passing to one of the club managers. They bounced his ass immediately.
Maybe having been in the lifestyle a bit, this place doesn't sound that odd to me... but I do think the "love buddha" retreat website is a bit sus. Not going to lie.
And this is exactly why as an ex fundie, a commune situation will probably never work for me lol.
Thanks Kirsten for sharing your story! You are so articulate and such a sweet soul. Of course that goes to you as well, Shalise.
Thank you so much Sandy!
@@CultstoConsciousness much love ❤️
I wonder how they would react if a trans woman wanted to get involved in their “Temple”, especially if they hadn’t been surgically altered.
Great question
Yes!!
No means no, maybe means no, yes means no half the time.
My exsquared came up with that and I made the T-shirt.
Everything except an enthusiastic and confident verbal "yes" is a no (unless of course you are unable to speak due to a medical condition, at which point there need to be other forms of consent)
Expedia offers trips to this retreat. i dont understand how a travel company would be involved in this
Woah!
Dang 🤯
Im pretty sure anyone can list on expedia now. I think theyre trying to follow airbnb or something because ive seen lots of very obvious residential homes listed as vacation suites there.
Back in the late 90s I was newly divorced and internet dating was a very new thing. I met a man who seemed very nice on the phone so we decided to meet for dinner. From the moment we met I got a really creepy vibe from him. During dinner he said that he was into the nudist lifestyle and was looking for a woman to come with him to a nudist resort because they didn’t allow single men. This happened in Indiana and the resort was advertised as being a “family friendly” nudist experience. They allowed families and couples but no single men in order to “keep out ped*philes”.
I didn’t take him up on the offer. I’m sure it was a nice place for families who enjoy that sort of thing but I didn’t feel like he had good intentions.
Yeah that sounds way sketchy!
As if there aren't married pedophiles lol
They should allow unattached males as well as unattached females in the same numbers otherwise you get pseudo couples.
Wow, that tax revelation at the end was a wild way to close this out. I'm so glad you're in a better place Kirsten. Thank you so much for your vulnerability and strength. You're so beautiful!
Right?! She totally threw me for a loop! 😂 so good.
I understand her so much, I had 0 boundaries after leaving not 1 but 2 cults and didn't know what was normal and it ended me up in a bad situation for years that I only now am starting to understand how messed up most of what I was around was.
I really love this channel because it's real people telling their own real stories
I began by thinking I´ll take notes going along. The intro is very heavy, also why I wanted to refrain from just pausing and reacting as we go along. As a "Dutch" person I tend to put my foot in my mouth at times. [Dutch Uncle; expression]
I am 5 minutes in, as Kirsten remarks *"not nude = predator".* And this mind set is not unheard of in nudists communities.
I notice the looks and sniffles. And things are becoming more nuanced and complex.
Thus I felt a need to give a reaction:
You are not a monkey to be lustfully googled at while in your nudist community.
Voyeurism and exhibitionism are side lines with nudism, but not what nudism is about.
This mindset "not nude = predator" often has more to do with locations.
If the location - In Germany there are public parks that have designated area's for nudists. Here clothing is optional, since non-nudists can walk just by while walking through the park. Nudity on beaches, in Europe not a big deal, and there are designated nudists parts at beaches it is a minority and you have to look for them. But they do exist. If you are out in the middle of nature, and it was a hustle to find the location it more often is clothing optional but it is a nudist retreat. You don't go there to keep your cloths on, that is the rest of the outside world's mindset. Nude=sin/lust
Maybe because I am European, and grew up knowing and hearing and at times seeing nudity and nudism.
*FKK Freikörperkultuur* aka nudism.
But *I fully understand the concern not nude = there to look at the nude bodies only.*
Its not like we pluck out our eyes when we strip naked, but it evens the playing field. Both are naked.
Also erections are harder to hide, but also a natural phenomenon. For men it is harder to hide lustful thoughts.
But it also depends, Kirsten also calls it a swingers club. Which is a form of sex club... so... in that case;
lust and erections are a thing one could/should expect.
Especially after I went and googled on internet: *One Love Temple.*
The way I take it at first glance is One Love Temple is close to the *Sea Mountain Nude Temple resort.* But I immediately get both in the screen.
On further investigation they both have the same address and appear to be one and the same, but two different aspects.
The SMNT is more a resort and retreat and the One Love Temple is a complex from this nudist retreat but just a catering aspect of it, not the full on retreat. So it depends on the marketing also at the location.
However it seems like both are open and clear on being establishments for nudism / as a nudist community.
Also I can't help but thinking of the nudist Temple in *Zootopia.*
I am not sure how much laws are also concerned, this also being the US, on the other hand it being "Sin City" aka Las Vegas.
What is allowed what is not, some state allow some things as others don't.
So repackaging of services with pseudonym's is not unheard of either....
In the (I believe) 70's there was this crack down on nudist magazines because between the actual harmless nudists consumers there also were child predators that looked at them with different eyes.
Just like all sex-related topics can be coded with talk.... and all communities have certain codes; that's just the Tea.
Why it is so important to be educated on these things so you won't end up in trouble.
Think red-bottom high heel shoes, they used to be a code for prostitution. You could spot a prostitute by her red-bottom high heel shoes. But then it became a fashion trend, and plenty of non-sex working women wore red-bottom high heel shoes... Some might have experienced cat-calling, or being propositioned and not knowing the code she spoke might have been part of that problem.
Or the Handkerchief code in the 80's in the gay community:
The handkerchief code, also known as the hanky code or the flagging system, is a way of communicating sexual preferences and interests within the LGBT community, especially among gay men. The handkerchief code uses different colors and patterns of handkerchiefs worn in the back pocket to indicate what one is looking for or offering in a sexual encounter. The handkerchief code was a discreet and covert method of signaling in times when being openly gay was dangerous or illegal.
But then youngsters saw this thought it looked cool, also in the music industry and without understanding the cultural appropriation that took place.
Which leads to miscommunications, and possibly "abuse" situations.
When I was young it was the single earring in a pierced ear. Gay men wore it in a certain ear lobe and straight men in the other one. I could never remember which side.
Only prostitutes wore white shoes in the 70s and then they came into fashion in the 80s when white was a predominant colour for women in the mid to late 80s.
@@lemsip207 I don't know when you were young, but in my youth having your ear pierced as a boy/man was getting out of the social taboo, worse where other types of piercings. Most people could not remember what side was code for what, besides that it didn't really matter.
In Western Europe, since I am Dutch not American: The left earlobe was the side that you were "straight" I got my ear pierced when I was 12. 1992/'93 I remember this being the critical issue, what side.
The right was "the gay side"... especially if you had both earlobes pierced, like girls. But there was not an amount of piercings, I had 3 in my left earlobe and 1 in the ear-shell top ridge. And 2 in the ear-shell top ridge of the right ear. I've also had a tongue and lip piercing.
I was never called gay for my piercings.
Oh, and later in life I realized I was gay, so the fashion again mixes up with codes. I was gay and had my left ear pierced and not my right earlobe.
The custom of pierced ears for men have differed throughout time. Think pirates but not just pirates and non-Christian cultures. This also goes along side with the social views on tattoo's.
The teardrop tattoo now days does not automatically mean that person killed a person. But this was what it once stood for. Multiple tears for multiple kills.
Then there were "grievers" who wanted teardrops for their dead parents etc. And some artists care more about making money than warning the person about the code, and not making the tattoo. Similar to tattoos with names in them that are not your children.
The white shoes code I didn't know about, but thank your for pointing out. I'll look into it, because I find stuff like this interesting factoids.
@schiffelers3944 I wore white shoes in the early 90s but wouldn't have dared to in the 70s. I don't think you could get them in most shops then. It was mostly brown, grey or black. Even green or red would be unheard of then. White and pastel coloured shoes became more common in the 80s.
@@lemsip207 I wore or maybe I should write whore white shoes on my wedding day [2004], with a white suit, a black over shirt and white tie, with a blue rose in the breast pocket.
I was talking about the shoe soles. Not the shoes in general, and what was labeled/seen as red back then was not the same red as now days.
There are these ancient shoe soles found, and in a museum of sex. I am not sure anymore on Ancient Greek or Ancient Roman, never the less the soles left a print in the soil saying follow me.
This entire thing is wild, thanks again for great content. I have friends who are in the lifestyle. I am a marriage monogamous person. Nothing wrong with doing things the way you wanna be doing, but what they did to you was abusive.
Agreed
Thank you Kirsten for sharing some of your life story with all of us. 💗 I have heard of and experienced a lot in my lifetime thus far, but I have never heard of a place quite like the one that you worked at after leaving Mormonism. It is wonderful to see how much you have healed since then and are now able to have such a positive outlook on your life in spite of the difficulties that you had to endure. And thank you Shelise for having Kirsten on and giving her safe space to share her story with all of us. 💞
Thank you for your support! ❤️
been waiting for the second episode yay!
This was such a great episode and conversation about something that happens way too frequently in less ‘Obvious’ ways. The go along mindset in corporate America commonly trains young professionals that HH and drinks at work dinners with clients in town is part of the job. It took a true friend to shed light on this for me. That all those uncomfortable dinners weren’t a necessary part of the real estate business. From 25-35, I genuinely thought it was all part of the job, so many uncomfortable hours with older men… ugh what a hidden devaluation of myself. I always felt like I had to be twice as committed as a male counterpart, nevertheless, somehow entertaining clients still always fell to me.
Thanks again for the light you shed.❤
She's got such a great laugh!!
You explain everything so well and have the BEST Guests . Thank you for your show
I’m not trying to make light of the situation, but I found it funny that I got an ad that started out with “booked that trip to Vegas!” 😅
Of course you did 😂
1:01:21 Even if you are weird, that is okay. It is okay to be yourself. What is weird to some is not always weird to others.
LOL yes you did Kirsten, the pendulum swings 😉 and you found middle ground and silver linings. This was a nice story, in the end.
But looking at the internet on the One Love Temple aka Sea Mountain Resort. I still think Kirsten should do something more to give attention to the wrongs going on there. It looks like they are still operating. Listen if people don't actively and loudly speak up and out...things will not change.
There were plenty of illegal things going on according to the internet searches I did today while listening in amazement and trying to figure things out.
His name is public... a google search gave it... Why not use it... I went on a search to find out more on the owners. Dewey Wohl and Julie Wohl.
Also if it is open, honest and transparent there would be no issues... but it is coded with intent. And some of that intention is abusive.
But I also found it funny, not being patient enough so to speak... and a little later you would say similar as my reaction was.
I called out the prostitution before you did after some internet search results...
*Kirsten you are not a bad person, for having made bad decisions. Once you understood better, you acted differently.*
That shows growth, and strength.
I googled the owners name and I found a article from 2019 where Clark County had lawsuit after them in Las Vegas Review-Journal.
I hope I can repost the article written by Briana Erickson in March 16, 2021:
A judge has dismissed Clark County’s lawsuit against an advertised “nude luxury retreat” that was accused of operating as an unlicensed business. The dismissal comes after the county and the defendants - which were accused of running an unlicensed business out of two adjacent homes on East Harmon Avenue - filed an agreement to dismiss all claims.
“Our main goal was to shut down the illegal operation, and we believe we accomplished that goal,” Chief Deputy District Attorney Rob Warhola said.
The lawsuit was filed in 2019 against Dewey and Julie Wohl and also named Sea Mountain One Love Temple and Zen Temple as defendants. At the time, the temple was advertised in a Las Vegas travel magazine as a “nude luxury retreat” with a 24-hour dayclub and nightclub.
District Judge David Jones dismissed the case Monday without prejudice, which means Clark County is free to bring another lawsuit forward on the same grounds. But the defendant’s attorney, Christopher Reade, said that would not be likely.
“The dismissal was part of discussions with the district attorney,” he said. “My clients appreciated the district attorney’s good faith and understanding in reaching an accord to dismiss.”
Property records show that the Wohls sold the homes at 2461 and 2471 E. Harmon Ave. in December to a woman named Divinity Cox for a total of $710,000. Cox could not be reached for comment on Tuesday.
The county’s lawsuit had asked Jones to shut down the business and order the owners to pay more than $15,000 in unpaid taxes, fees and interest.
It was filed after a code enforcement investigation found signage for Sea Mountain One Love Temple placed around the two homes’ shared backyard pools. The county had designated the home at 2461 E. Harmon Ave. as a place of worship under its previous ownership.
The Wohls bought the homes for $610,000 in late 2016 from James Stanford and his wife, Lynn Morris, who transformed the homes into a Buddhist meditation center and operated them as such for more than five years.
But the county’s lawsuit accused the Wohls of using both homes as a commercial spa, nightclub, bar, motel and retail store. Food also was being served there without proper permitting from the Southern Nevada Health District, according to the lawsuit.
In a response to the complaint, Reade wrote in court documents that his clients were protected under their constitutional rights of freedom of religion and freedom of assembly.
When a reporter attempted to reach the temple by phone Tuesday, the line went straight to voicemail.
“One Love Temple is closed. Thank you,” the voice on the other end said. “We remain in your prayers.”
I love Kirsten's laughter, and I wish her to laugh many many times more in the future because she deserves it!
The website says mixed couples and single women only. So if you aren't part of a couple and are male take a female friend with you and pretend to be a couple. I think the number of unattached women there should equal the number of unattached men. Swingers clubs often allow a few unattached women but the rest are couples.
If I thought even one person *would* be nude there, I wouldn't be at all interested in going there.
I wouldn't even be comfortable seeing other people nude. I'm *REALLY* not interested in seeing people naked. At all.
I'm not comfortable being around people who enjoy being naked around others. I just think it's really icky and weird.
Yuck
Agree 💯%
I have no idea how she complied to be interviewed in the nude - let alone continue working there for six months!!
Very icky 🥴
@@carolfulton-kennedy2482
I know right!
I would have walked out right there and then!
She said they were offering a good wage and she was desperate for money.
But even so there are just some lines that you don't cross.
And if you do cross them it doesn't lead anywhere good!
🤦🏻♀️
I really would appreciate if you'd do the trigger warnings/content warnings before the "intro" if it contains casual assault descriptions.
I get that you try to put the "most interesting" things into the "teaser", but I really don't think this content is perfect for the "most extreme things that are said in the interview condensed down to a few seconds" approach, but I guess it's the best way to gain some people's attention.
I'd usually not say anything, and instead just assume that I am just triggered and might not be part of the intended audience, but so far I thought that survivors are part of your intended audience. I dunno. I think many people might benefit from content warnings instead of the quotes, out of context, but at least before hearing them.
I do find your podcast generally really nice and interesting, and I appreciate how well and nuanced the interviews are.
Thank you for considering
💜
I do think trigger warnings could be necessary but at the same time just reading the title of the video makes it incredibly obvious that some kind of assault would happen
The one thing that I did not hear you discussing is peer pressure. Peer pressure can be as damaging as pressure from above, and is frequently more insidious because it is more subtle. At least, when your superior or authority figure gives a command, you more or less know the costs of fighting and escaping. But your peers can get you to do things that your superiors cannot.
Not to be mean, I work service myself, and also not to sound arrogant... but you are also supposed to be "attractive" - as waitress/waiter, hostess/hosts, barmaid/barman, etc. You are there to serve and attract customers, with your personality, skills and looks. Why you in most settings are also not allowed to wear rings, or jewelry, that is not just only for personal safety reasons. It is to appear single, so you can sell more. You have to be "friendly" and "nice" and have an open and inviting personality; things that in different social settings could also be perceived/mistaken as flirting. Make eye contact, etc. then that also helps with tips, and tip culture in US is different than in the EU.
Sex sells is just a fact of life at this point. Fear & Desire are the strongest motivators of human psychology.
The fear doesn't often get used in general, in the EU. But in the US the medicine commercials and those for lawyers & insurances are full on fear as motivation most often. But not always; here in the Netherlands there is the insurance commercial most people know. Even Apeldoorn bellen; they use humor and jokes mixed in with "fearful"/"stressful" situations. Like a bride cake delivery, and the driver driving extreme slow and careful, since he has the multi layered cake in the back of the delivery van. While arriving towards the venue having to make an emergency break for a mother duck with her ducklings... and the wedding cake splattering against the rear windows of the delivery van. Even Apeldoorn bellen (Centraal Beheer). [Translated; Just call Apeldoorn] Centraal Beheer is the name of the insurance company, and the head office is located in Apeldoorn. You should be able to find some of their commercials on RUclips also.
This slogan has been used since 1986, I don't know any better being born in 1980.
Psychology has been deliberately been used in sales for decades. I first got introduced to psychology in my sales educations (Netherlands) age 14.
That was what sparked my interests into psychology as a possible follow up education.
19:47 this sounds like those dreams (people have told me about) where you show up to work (or school) naked.
Thank you. My goodness, you've been through the wringer but come out smiling! ❤👏🤜
I burst out laughing at the blacklight comment and couldn't get it out of my head. Amazing story.
😜
I have participated in nudist events and it was so comfortable and amazing. If you have to resort to this it is awful. I am so sorry this happened to you! Side note love BOTH y'all's tops lol
Aww thank you! Yeah I imagine a nudist environment that felt safe and not sexually charged would be a liberating experience
Wow that's just cookoo. I wonder if the neighborhood was aware of what was happening in that house. I know that you have to sanction curtain things for a business in residential areas. Like parking and only open during certain times a day until curtain times a day. I wonder how they were able to pass in society as a Buddhist temple with round beds and black lights. Health inspectors, fire marshell and Osha all randomly do inspections in most places have to make inspections 4 times a year. They are suppose to be spuratic and done without notice so they can see how things are really done. But a lot of times the inspector will give you one or 2 inspections and if you pass them without any major issues they will start warning you about when they will give you the next inspection. It really makes me wonder how they got away with it.
I've seen a few of your interviews and they are very interesting.
Much success and health to all.
Thank you!
I love Kirsten's nails. Interesting that its a Buddhist temple/nude spa & yet that first website claims it is a Judeo-Christian mission of one love. Buddhism & Judeo-Christianity are different to start with. Also it seems odd that its a home in a neighbourhood, (I picture a subdivision home) but was a temple with multiple pools & guests on the grounds, which makes it sound like its on an acre or more of land. The whole place seems so deceptive/coercive & non-consensual. I'm so sorry Kirsten that you were pushed into viewing/being touched by others without your consent because even with your interview, you were still not given the whole truth. I'm happy you realized that this time was not what you wanted for your life and how unfortunately it could affect the lives of others, and thank you for opening up. I'm also glad it helped you find a middle ground for your life.
Kirsten, my heart goes out to you. My nieces & nephews have been raised in evangelical Christian purity culture. I'm terrified for how that has not prepared them for the real world on any level. It's also damaging to their self-esteem and how they view themselves if they do anything that makes them feel they're "impure" and "unworthy."
“They were having sex over there and I was like and I was not expecting this it all.” No one was honey! And you are more beautiful now it shines from inside and out. You have been on a journey and where you are now looks good on you!
Thank you ladies for creating a safe space to learn about the world.
I am not a Mormon, I always lived in the secular world, but I would still be absolutely shocked if I was seeing people have sex right in front of me; regardless of where I worked or if it was “Vegas!,” the land of “what happens here stays here.”
Without a doubt, what you experienced was sexual coercion. They customers are paying for the experience of voyeurism and getting off on it; and because it “was your job”, you were forced into participating in their sex play, even though you didn’t consent. The staff showed you rooms where couples could easily go to do their thing together in private, and no one with authority ever asked you if you are you okay with seeing couples sexually engage in public spots of the ‘resort’. I have a feeling the owners made sure to NOT ask because they didn’t want you to say no and once you were employed, they had the upper hand (not to mention, the cover of plausible deniability if you ever decided to formally make a complaint about their business practices to the licensing and employee-protection orgs.) They clearly wanted you for eye candy for their guests, and they were hoping that once they got your foot in the door you’d just adapt and accept their “lifestyle” with no questions asked. That IS a violation of your consent; let us very clear about that.
I actually have a somewhat similar story. When I retired from the Army I was suffering from a wicked case of complex-ptsd and didn’t know what I was going to do with myself. After becoming an adult, the military life was all I’ve ever known and I felt out of place in “normal” society, so a 9-5 wasn’t going to work at that time for me. I
I ended up moving back to my hometown and reconnected with family and friends. One person I was close to had a girlfriend who was working at a nearby strip club in West Virginia- a fully nude strip club; and they served alcohol. Customers could actually buy you drinks, and you earned money from just sitting and talking to them while getting drunk. That sounded fabulous to lost-in-the-sauce me who was coping with much deeper issues and residual trauma.
This person who worked there kept telling me all these amazing stories about how much money she made, and saying that I would be perfect for the job and that I would get so much in tips because I had “such a beautiful body.” (When you were talking about the flattery they kept giving you and how it mentally and emotionally threw you off course, I felt that in the core of my being.)
I finally agreed to a trial run and started out as a bartender/server/floor entertainment (the drinker who didn’t dance on stage 😂), but it didn’t take long before management offered me a job dancing. I knew it was coming eventually, and the pressure was great because the other girls would jibe me and say things like, “what? are you too good to do what we do?” I just couldn’t wrap my mind around getting onstage fully nude, but I felt pressured to “move forward” and not be labeled the prudish, stuck-up girl; so management told me I could just sell private lap dances and Jacuzzi rooms to make some extra money and still work primarily as a server.
We wore lingerie when in the club, but no one (not even the official dancers) walked around totally nude in the club- that was reserved for the stage only. So this sounded like a decent compromise to me. I felt like I was showing the other girls that I was a team player and didn’t think I was better than anyone else working there. And because the state regulations said that anytime a customer was within an arm length you HAD to have underwear on, I felt like I was shifting my boundaries but not tossing them aside completely. (I know, I was making excuses because I felt compelled to and was being told by everyone else that I was “acting like a princess.” Plus the money was a huge enticement- that’s for sure! So yes, I caved. ‘The love of money’ ad all that jazz…)
Originally, I thought that the private lap dances wouldn’t make me feel as vulnerable as the idea of being fully nude on stage; but, man, was I stupid! I didn’t understand that the bouncers were paid extra to “overlook” rule violations like the underwear law or the customer’s ability to actually touch us- especially if they were known as a big spender! And I thank God above that I never dared to do a jacuzzi room because I finally figured out that this was a code for a reserved private room, no bouncer but just a camera, and that girls would sell sexual activity to the customer that could be hidden below the water where the cameras couldn’t see!! (They were literally prostituting girls out of the club while claiming to follow all state regulations)
The final night I worked there, I was pressured to sell a $500 jacuzzi room and I panicked and just left- like literally walked out in my lingerie with just a coat on. The manager called me and threatened me saying if I ever wanted to work there again I needed to come back and complete this sell- the club made $300 of every room sold, and he wanted that money. He knew exactly what was expected of me up there, but just like in the private “lap dances,” would claim ignorance if asked directly what was going on. I felt totally coerced, deceived, humiliated, and uncertain.
Was I making “too big a deal” out of things? This was a guaranteed $200 tip and I was making around ~$1500 a week only working 3 days out of 7. Did I want to suddenly lose my only source of income over something as “silly” as a hand job under the cover of bubbles?? I doubted everything about myself and was made to feel like “a baby” because I wouldn’t just “get on with it and make that money!” Everybody acted like these transactions were totally normal and I was being “extra” and hard to work with! Like you explained, I was seriously shamed for not just going along with it.
That was the end of my career working at Southern exposure in WV (yes, I call the club out by name!)
But still to this day, I feel like it’s my fault. I should have known better. And I blame myself for getting that far into it just because everybody else was so fine with what was going on.
I know our stories were very different, but the vibe felt the same to me. I just wanted to let you know that you’re not alone. You weren’t “being ridiculous.” And businesses that cater to these type of services should be much more upfront with their employees about what is expected of them BEFORE the employee is put into a violating situation they never expected to be in!
Sorry so long, just wanted to say, “you’re not alone and it’s not your fault!”
I can’t even count the times this girl’s vulnerability made me laugh out loud but at the same time my heart goes out to her. Her attitude about everything is spot on though.
This lady is a doll inside and out. So pretty!! This story is crazy, 🤣
One of the most ironic parts of this experience is that meat isn't served in temples 😭
Normal or not, if you don't want to be hugged, clothed or naked - you have the right to decline consent to that hug.
Yes people will find that weird and strange - if their (sub)culture expects differently. You probably will also be treated differently, for better or worse.
But it is being true to yourself. And if you don't fit into that (sub)culture that is fine, there are plenty of others you might have a better mesh with.
Like you said, this is specific to the culture created in the Sea Mountain Resort, aka One Love Temple.
And this is why religions should NOT be tax free!
there just need to be standards and accountability, so that the good ones or at least their operations that provide good works can enjoy tax exemption, but the ones that aren't or their operations -- like the Mormon's vast property holding companies -- that aren't, don't get the benefit.
@@reynemayer2942 I’d be okay with that. Full transparency.
@@katwitanruna yes. one of the problems now is that 'religious' organizations are exempted from the financial reporting requirements that all other non-profits are -- so they are completely unaccountable and the bad players end up getting away with stuff like this.
@@reynemayer2942 Yep! I’d feel better off if they *had* to report financials. As it is, I avoid things that aren’t transparent.
Do you have/you should make a RUclips short that explains the BITE model?
Hi to Both Shelise and Kirsten!!! Sending you both Gentle Virtual Hugs and Positive Vibes 💖💖💖 from Miami Florida USA!!! Kirsten: first of all thank you sooo much for sharing not only this life experience, but also your experiences growing up mormon, working at EFY, and your time at BYU... I keep thinking as I am watching this video today (11/15/2023), that the craziness has got to level out at some point in her story... Not in the sense of discounting or diminishing your experience...but more in the sense of OMG how much worse IS THIS going to get 😮😳😱🤬😳🤯🤯🤯...?!!??? I am 1000% all for a healthy and body positive attitude towards everyone and every kind of sex and kink out there... While I might never understand some of the kink out there- especially those involving poop/pee...but hey as Shelise says "Okay, you do you boo."... but I digress...If that's your jam then go for it, I wish you well and lots of orgasms... What I can't and won't support is a crazy, non-consensual, coercive, lying, noncommunicative, law breaking, creepy as bunch of weirdos organization like this place. There is a level of trust AND more so RESPONSIBILITY that has to go into a place like this... not only for the safety and fun of the guests but as well as the staff. I am sorry that you were subjected to that. And even more so...PROUD of you for sticking up for yourself and having the personal understanding of yourself that you deserved better and got the F out of there. Another thought on this... Back in the 1980's during the beginning of the HIV/AIDS crisis, a lot of public bath houses and other meeting/sex positive/other establishments as well as many gay individuals and groups, DID NOT WANT to initially change their "safety" habits, this initial hesitancy and selfishness allowed the wider spread and resulting devastation of HIV/AIDS... Of course society and our government helped even less...but that's another story... But if sex establishments once again fall into unsafe practices there could be a greater spread of disease once again.... I dont know... my brain is just floored when I hear these stories... Shelise and Kirsten... Y'all are both AWESOME!!!
As someone being perfectly happy in nude sauna it's disturbing to hear about someone pressured into that.
Every place I go to has pools expecting bathing suit and some that don't with clear seperation
Oh wow 😯 Ty for sharing ur story Kristen . No one should ever feel pressured into doling something they are uncomfortable with I’m sorry this happened to you I wish you well and much love 💕
In a true swingers club/lifestyle club, it's not even that "No means no" - it's "Yes means yes", meaning that if you don't get the word "yes" or "ok", you do not proceed.
Even in those types of clubs, you can still be assaulted and they know it and are extremely careful about it. You are still required and more importantly, allowed, to give consent before someone touches you... Regardless of the fact that you're in a lifestyle club. I'm surprised these places- apparently they have more than one location- haven't been shut down yet because they are not operating like a proper lifestyle club should be.
*** It doesn't surprise me that there were cameras everywhere, there should have been actually. They needed to protect themselves from someone crying rape or abuse and the only way to do that was with cameras. That being said, it wouldn't surprise me either if some of those people were on amateur websites without their knowledge or permission. The owners of this place sound extremely shady and again, I can't believe they're getting by with all of this.
Kirsten is very courageous to share her story with us. Thank you Kirsten, it must have been hard but I am sure that your message will help someone else. In her testimony when she said she was asked to go see a couple engaged in sex if they wanted drinks, my though was that they were trying to get her to participate . Kirsten, you are a wonderfull person and I am sure that you are cherished by your family. I never would have suspected clubs or businesses like that existed, I only saw them in TV shows like CSI or Victim's unit. Talking about TV shows, I remember an episode in CSI Las Vegas with Grisom and a Dominatrix, that episode is one of my favorites, the dialogue between the two was well done.
There are many nudist resorts where nudity is a requirement, for that exact reason, to deter people just there to ogle. However, this is made VERY clear on all the materials and they are often called something like "Bare Oaks." The policy is not unusual, what is unusual is being deceptive and calling a nudist resort a "temple."
Also, very weird to mix nudism with sexuality, most nudist resorts are specifically NOT sexual, family-friendly affairs.
Yes, exactly. Mixing nudism with a sexually charged atmosphere causes a lot of problems for unsuspecting guests
And I think if someone was genuinely having mixed feelings or second thoughts, they probably wouldn't throw them out, just ask them to be discreet so as not to make the nude guests feel uncomfortable, maybe avoid certain parts of the resort, stay close to your room or use the hiking trails but not the pools... etc. Like in a place like that people wouldn't be bullying you!!! ffs!!
Children being nude around adults, or even partially-clothed around nude adults, is NOT “family-friendly”. 🤨
I’m all for consenting adults doing what they want and how they want, but a minor that is brought there by their parents can not consent. As a person who worked in a fully-nude strip club, I’m not being a prude, but I am for protecting children at all costs!
@@chilltarts I completely understand this philosophy. 👍👍👍👍
Great interview, Shelise. I know a couple who are into a BDSM swinger's group and yeah, extra women are fine, but gay guys - no, even if some of the "straight" men would love to play with another man. Sounds like there's a lot of misogyny involved in that place. They'd probably welcome a lesbian couple (as long as they were open to have men at least watch - weird fantasy I don't get). I doubt this was a cult, but the swingers scene is very private and hidden. Gay men are much more open about it. If you want a non-monogamous relationship, guys tend to work it out (or break up), and we've had bathhouses for years. Polyamory (imho) tends to be a modern version of plural marriage - tends to be the guy wants more than one "wife", and not the other way around. Terrible that she had to deal with that sort of coercive situation. I would have left at "get undressed". My thing is STIs - who could be passing what to whom?
I knew a woman who lived with “2 husbands”, and there are societies where they practice Polyandry & Group Marriage (3 or 4 women with 3 or 4 men)…
I would be curious at what they did to screen out STI’s, or if they relied on condoms to prevent transmission.
I respect the guest so much. To get naked and go to even an interview is so stong. And being able to leave when she said it was wrong is amazing.
2 things -
1) Places like that rely on you being silent because you’re mortified, embarrassed or humiliated & stay silent;
2) I’ve been to clothing optional places & had a gf who wanted to take me to one - In no case was nudity required or public sex allowed - They might have “Cooling Off Rooms” where couples who were overheated could relieve themselves.
That place was simply a Sex-Club. They should have been honest about what they were doing!
*informed* consent is the issue in groups like this.
It has nothing to do with the episode, but since the last Kirsten's episode I wanted to say that I love her makeup.
It’s goals for me 🙌
15:09 I think everyone’s mind is playing on them like that, like a way to calm themselves or when someone wants to believe in smth for one reason or another, it is a way to try to close their eyes so that they could continue hoping it would turn in fact ok.
I've never heard of being nude in Buddhist religion.
That's strange how their websites show different things with different names. That's deceiving.
I've never been to Las Vegas. Thanks for sharing.
The closest thing is the woman who had a mental breakdown in Balli 😂
1:01:15 that’s a great advice-it is important to follow your intuition even when you don’t see why you don’t feel comfortable (even cia and other agents can abort a mission they don’t feel it, so you can too not feeling guilty)!
That never works for me. My intuition is either off in lala land or it tells me that EVERYTHING is dangerous and the best thing to do is ignore it.
My cousin has a cabin in a nudist resort that's very different from this place. Her resort strictly forbids public sexual activity. Clothing is genuinely optional everywhere except at the beach on a pond, where they actually have had problems with pervy people coming just to ogle. For that reason, photography is against the rules. Every time I've visited, it's been a good experience. Even so, I really don't get why being nude is so important to people (including my cousin and her husband). I don't mind taking my clothes off, but the experience isn't one that I'd seek out on my own. What strikes me the most is that my cousin and her husband are involved with the governing board, which has eternal conflicts. To me, those hassles are the kind of thing I'd only want to deal with on my day job.
I haven't gone there in almost two decades for a couple of reasons. One is that my wife has a genetic condition and is very self-conscious about her body. I think she's beautiful, but she doesn't, so she's not comfortable getting nude in front of strangers. The other is that we adopted two kids from an orphanage, and with all the issues they have to deal with, we didn't want to add more. We will be going back, though, because my cousin just moved, and her cabin in the nudist resort will be the best place to visit her.
There is a legitimate Tantric mediation retreat for couples, they learn to practice nude meditation together in private. It's not about sex and definitely not swingers, it's about the shared chi energy.
And that sounds awesome!
I have been a Naturist/Nudist all my adult life, and have never been to a retreat or anything else that was anything other than strict clothing optional. No one was ever forced to be naked. I have frequently seen women who were having their period wearing shorts or bathing suit bottoms, because even tampons sometimes leak and you have a string hanging down. One guy, who had a colostomy bag, always wore a t shirt and stayed out of the pool or spa. I suppose those people would have forced him to humiliate himself in front of everyone. Accomodations are made. The point is to be comfortable emotionally, physically and spiritually. Also, I have never been to a place that allowed public sex. One place even had a big sign that said "No Public Sex". A Swingers gathering or party ( not something I am involved with) is entirely different than a Naturist retreat.
Any situation where they *lie*, and they did lie, should be a major red flag!
It is also a huge insult to the Buddhist faith to claim to be a Buddhist spiritual center as a "cover". Those two very different web sites for the same place was truly creepy. Thank both of you for speaking out against this exploitive, dishonest for lack of a better term SCAM.