9 hours later, 2 days after the release of the video, here I am, with lots to take in and reflect on. The first thing that comes up to mind, though, is this: this extended interview is an incredible testimony on all things related to the ZAUM disaster, expanding on what was already touched upon in the PMG documentary and filling in the gaps which at the time could never be fully explored. After having seen that documentary, the Martin podcast episode, the Aargo one and then this, it feels like we are approaching to shed true light on what has been until today a very dark matter, both because of the abuse and the waste of potential it generated and because of its willingness to remain in obscurity. 9 hours of interview and yet not a single moment was wasted: this truly feels like an essential work that shows exactly what plagued ZAUM and the gaming industry as a whole. I was moved by the sentiments expressed in this, and I truly couldn't be more grateful to 41st Precinct, who gave these creatives a platform to do this, and to Aargo and Dora themselves, since I believe there couldn't be two better options as guests for this episode. The thing which has striken me the most is the duality between what was perceived from the outside as opposed to what was perceived from the inside. The echo chamber, as Dora and Aargo so excellently put it, made it so information was limited and carefully regulated: you couldn't talk about certain topics and you were severely reprimanded if you even hinted at them. To us, the community of players who loved the original game and followed everything that happened with the studio ever since, the idea that a sequel to Disco Elysium or even an expansion could ever come out without Robert and Rostov involved seemed ludicrous at best, if not downright impossible. When the projects were cancelled one after the other, it didn't come as a surprise to anyone: it felt like a necessary confirmation of what was already evident, which is that nothing would ever come out of ZAUM because it was run like a multi-level marketing scheme. This was also related to another common sentiment in the community, which was that everyone who was left in the studio was a class traitor or something along those lines, because if it was evident that the studio wasn't going to actually produce anything, why would anyone ever stay in it? Well, the answer is actually evident just like it was at the time for anyone who didn't completely buy into the naive narrative that I mentioned before: people need their livelihoods, and that goes beyond any ideological commitment that they might or might not have. Now, we can add another piece to the puzzle: there were people who not only were still committed to the idea of actually making something that would make the fans proud, and not only that, but they still came pretty close to actually doing it, all things considered. The unrecognised struggle of the workers at ZAUM that tried their best to go against all odds and bring any kind of worthy follow-up to Disco Elysium genuinely moved me, and it also brought to light another essential aspect of this affair, which I'll talk about next. When stuff like this happens, there's always a presumption that the businessmen who are behind allegedly fraudulent schemes like in this case are some cunnings puppetmasters who know exactly what to do and when to do it in order to get bag and run with it. It reminds me of when Trump got elected and people said that Elon Musk's plan of buying Twitter at an overpriced price just came into fruition, having bought his way into the government; since then, everybody is starting to talk about Musk with more attention in regards to what he believes or what he's scheming behind the curtains. In this case, just like in that one, I think we all made the mistake of thinking that these people are smarter than they actually are, and so an essential element to all this goes unmentioned: people like Ilmar Kompus and Tonis Haavel are just really and profoundly incompetent, and the only reason why their actions and opinions haven't fallen into obscurity is that they just have a lot of money, and that gives them more weight than they should hold. The episode where Haavel proudly shared a basic how-to youtube video to a team of game developers is emblematic on this front: one thing is to pretend to care about people only to manipulate them, but from Dora and Aargo's testimonies I got the feeling that these executives actually thought they would be able to deliver new successful games while all they did was make such productions even harder than they should have been. What these people are actually capable of is manipulation: as the two guests said, their jobs essentially boiled down to gossiping together, pitting people one against the other, manipulating vulnerable and often neurodivergent workers to create and mantain a cult-like atmosphere in the studio. It's sick and depraved, but we should also be careful not to fall in the pit of dehumanisation: let's not hand out diagnosis of sociopathy like they meant nothing, because all I've heard about these people makes me think of them as nothing but deeply human and insecure. This is also the basis for what they did in the company: transforming victims into executioners, to the point that it becomes hard to point the finger at anyone. Don't get me wrong: this doesn't excuse their behaviour, but it does tell us that they probably didn't look at this as a pump and dump scheme, and it's likely that they genuinely believed that what they did was for the good of the company. The issue was one of incompetence and the inability to accept that you might simply be ignorant of the correct process on how to do what you intend to, which is narcissism. And they truly were monumental narcissist, once you stop thinking about it for a single second: how could you be so stupid as to frame yourself as the righteous parent who has to reprimand their children, when the parent never played a videogame in their entire life and the children are actual experienced game developers and the matter of which you're reprimanding them is game development? Imagine a movie producer who never watched a single movie in their lives and then comes up to Scorsese going "Uh, let's hear what this child has to complain about this time..." I can't help but think that a lot of the entertainment industry suffers from problems similar to this one, but I feel like the videogame industry is especially affected because of how young it is and because of how profitable it is. Businessmen want to get their hands on the millions you gain by selling videogames, but also can't be bothered to be interested about videogames in any way other than a child's plaything: to make Disco Elysium is the same as making a shitty mobile videogame, and this belief is so ingrained into them that they need to protect the belief that they are the right men for the job. From this, here comes the ghost that haunts so many videogame studios today: toxic positivity. We've seen it with Dragon Age: Veilguard and with this video we have a perfect sintomathology of it: the control of information and language; the creation of a public enemy to forge a sense of community; the constant surveillance; the "carrot and stick" mentality you plant in people's heads when you reward them when they demonstrate their loyalty, whether it is with alcohol, fancy hotel rooms or creepy whispered compliments (seriously, what the fuck was that about), and then immediately punish them when they speak their minds or contradict your absolute mandates. It's an exercise in power, and it should not go ignored that these people might simply get psychological satisfaction from mantaining this condition: it's cool to be in power, it's cool to be always right because none is able to contradict you, and aside from all this there's also a good 40k euros a month which helps sweeten the deal. PART 2 is in the comments
PART 2 When seeing these horrible events being recounted and knowing that they're still unfolding, one might feel a sense of impotency. After all, even if we know everything about it now, we can't do much about it on an individual or even on a community level: the judges will deliberate regardless of what we think, and many of these behaviours will never be truly addressed in a court nor in any other context. However, there is a throughline: the cat is out the bag now, and these environments only manage to function in obscurity. It's funny to see that the first crack came from a blog post by Martin Luiga, who had the power that comes from being a man who had nothing left to lose; but from there, we can't praise enough what the PMG documentary has done to bring all of this to the attention of the people who played and who are passionate about videogames in general. I have been a defender of the PMG doc since day one, even when it was shat on by basically any public Disco figure (and I'm not just saying it for the sake of it, if you wanna check I still have a comment criticising the Jamrock Hobo video in its comment section), and it's precisely because he was incredibly thorough with his investigations while leaving no path untreaded. Many fans wanted the documentary to be downright biased, completely dismissing Robert's firing justification as an excuse and then go from there; however, we only have the context necessary to understand that something foul went on because PMG already provided us with an accurate and incredibly thorough explanation of who these people are and what they have done. Personally, I came out of that documentary with two beliefs in my head: Robert was robbed of the world he created, and also that he knew how to be a bit of a dick when he wanted to. I've always said this: Robert seems to be a pretty hard person to work for and with (as many creative geniuses do), but there is none else I trust to deliver us a true sequel to Disco Elysium. Robert clearly did a lot of questionable things, both as a boss and as a friend, and this does become relevant when he is fired for gross misconduct; although the subsequent firings of both Rostov and Helen clearly show that all of this were flimsy excuses at best, and that it can all be boiled down to a matter of power. People insecure of their own abilities that use other people even more insecure of their abilities (like Justin, a major character in all of this who I would be eager to know the testimony of) to crush anyone passionate or talented enough to bring the spotlight away from them. When Dora talked about how excited she was when she had those wonderful brainstorming sessions with other creatives who all shared her aesthetic sensibilities and moral convictions, it truly warmed my heart. As someone who is very passionate about media and loves to talk about it with other similar-minded people, I can't express how addicting it is to be with someone like that: hours go by without even realising, and it's often more fulfilling than even creating the art you like to talk about. I loathe the people who corrupted something so pure and unadultered into something so devious: this might be the worst aspect of all of this, that so many young artists put their trust into a studio which they thought to be different only to find out that it was the worst of them all. Unfortunately, this also made it so that this studio was primed to be reforged into a cult-like environment: people weren't there just because of the money or because of convenience, they were there because they loved what the studio stood for and wanted to be part of its future. Think about what you'd do if you were part of the team that was supposed to make the sequel to a game which matters so much to you, like Disco Elysium does to so many people: wouldn't you too try to close your eyes in front of any injustice just to have the opportunity to put even just a small part of yourself into something so important and beautiful? Perhaps the most important take-away from all of this is that even if you believe that you might be immune to this kind of manipulation, you aren't. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, it doesn't matter what you stand for: there is a lever they can pull that puts you into a mental state of submission, and it's hard to evade it without outside help. I hope this video can make some people realise that they might be in a similar condition and do something about it. I'll end it here because I'm sure there will be much to talk about when part II comes out too, but I want to say one last thing before I go. This story is now out of their control, and all of the effort which was required to shed light on it would be irrelevant if we do nothing about it. The only power these artists have now is in the community and what the community can offer. They told us that they'll be back at our side, now it's time for us to promise that same thing to them. So smash that 100k goal for Aargo's fundraiser, that's what I'm saying; spread the word, support the artists however you can, and let's never forget of what happened at ZAUM studios.
Thank you, truly, for your writing. It makes telling the whole story worth it. It was a merciless effort to revisit and keep track of it over some 24 hours of recording, an undertaking that left Argo and I drained on a physical level after each session. You ask yourself a lot when you are autopsying a past that is still alive and breathing down your neck: What should be named and what should be laid to rest? And why can't we all stop hurting each other? And is each attempt at dissection another cut that takes this body of work towards an unsalvageable death rather than towards more understanding? If even one person heard it, made sense of it, and came back with as measured a take as you have that makes this whole madness fit into the picture of humanity, it was worth telling.
@@DoraKlindzic It really does look like it was a tremendous undertaking, I can't commend you and Aargo enough for having put yourself through it just to get the truth out there. To think that we live in the cursed timeline where this is the work of yours we all get to enjoy and not the Disco sequel or X7, it's so bleak. The most tragic element in all of this is that so much effort was wasted on projects that'll never see the light of day. It humbles me that you appreciated my writing and I hope that one day, when all of this will just be a distant memory, you'll be able to make sense of this experience. The winter is almost over, so let the summer be eternal.
@@DoraKlindzic Thank you for taking so much time and painstaking effort with telling your story. Donated to the GoFundMe and hoping we're several steps closer to something beautiful.
The Deserter: It was real. I'd seen it. I'd seen it *in reality*. Half-Light: Some kind of great terror. Worse than what you've seen. You: Seen *what*? The Deserter: The mask of humanity fall from capital. It has to take it off to kill everyone - everything you love; all the hope and tenderness in the world. It has to take it off, just for one second. To do the deed. And then you see it. As it strangles and beats your friends to death... the sweetest, most courageous people in the world... (he's silent for a second) You see the fear and power in its eyes. Then you *know*. You: What? The Deserter: That the bourgeois are not human.
"hey so the entire team has problems with the new project, we should sit down and fix things to not demoralise everyone and make a good game" "you're too negative" I can't believe this shit
> Should you pirate the game? > Robert and Rostov no longer receive money for it In other words, though I already have the original release, it sounds like the extended edition is technically free
I am (in retrospect) a little sad that I bought the game not knowing about the intellectual theft. But I donated a bit to Argo and all Merch I’ll buy will be done by myself or bought from artist on Etsy. They are not getting any of my money…
As someone who's worked in a few very broken company environments it was so perfect to hear such a familiar story, both perspectives were very validating to follow and that point about how you can't describe the experience with words, only people who've been through it understand how real it is and just how distant you can become from your own sense of judgement that would in a lucid place would simply have you leave, the few times I've tried to explain it, no matter how I described it and how much or little detail I used, it was always received at best by a blank, empty, attempt at sympathy or more typically just a dismissive attempt at hiding doubt their in most cases... until you talk to other people that have been through it, then holy sh you see eachother so clearly and the experience so often with different people and different circumstances, feels almost exactly the same just at a different volume depending on how deep you each got stuck
another observation after finishing this part - it pains how Robert's pride and defensiveness adds to the grimness of the situation. It was in his power, as a recognised creative lead to gather Argo and whoever else and move on with whatever they come up with next. Instead he cuts Argo out for really infantile grudges. As a narcissistic manipulator himself (as evident by his attitude towards argo, Helen, Rostov), he clearly knows Argo's psychological issues and weaknesses and knows how much trouble his remaining position in ZAUM and alliance with 'The Good' (i.e. recognising Robert as the author, not bonding with all these managers) adds to them. If power is in honest and truly creative people, then it is so silly to push away such rare people away, especially when they contributed to your success. It is just sad. This attitude was forever present among some artists, especially in film and music. Only few kind ones can make the work of healing their ego and allowing growth based on mutual recognition and value.
@@The41stPrecinct didn't know that you had podcast with him. Sad that your videos don't have that many views. Anyway wish you luck with all that is going on
holyyyyy shit youre spoiling us. unfortunately its about what will likely be a sad topic. still, ill probably watch every hour of it. having not seen any yet, i hope content like this repairs relationships between the more well-intended and creative ex-members of ZA/UM, opens doors for more communication with the public and future projects for us fans, and ultimately, more Elysium IP from its rightful originators. good work!
Dora is radio astronomer?, she is basically irl version of pale researcher Edit: it's a little awkward at the start where Argo speaks for an hour while she is just there watching silently. 1:52:00 ZAUM 2022 - Justin's Heresy
This is awesome, truly amazing and awesome. 3 hours in and i intend to watch all of it, part 2 included. Thanks for producing such amazing, in depth work. I am hugely regretful that Disco Elysium will never see a proper sequel. My heart goes out to everyone who was fucked over, and I sincerely wish that their spirit has not been completely crushed by this. Please continue to make games or whatever else, and come back with a vengeance.
The hilarious thing to me is, that I’m 99,9% sure that the ZA/UM executives are soaking up this video just as the fans do and that they’ll probably read our comments. Wish I knew how to say “FUCK YOU” more eloquently than I do…
I needed a new 3 hour video to watch while I do work in the background.. and this came out. Seriously, you’ve been doing god’s work for the Disco community. Thank you so so much for what you do
i don't tend to watch the content about what happened to zaum (never seen the pmg documentary for example) because it all just breaks my heart so much. i probably won't watch all of this, but i do appreciate you doing the work to try to get this out there. as a writer and just a creative person in general, what happened to zaum is truly a nightmare scenario. all i can do is hope the courts rule the way we all believe they should.
Kind of a tangent but both Dora's and Argo's accents are to me so pleasant to listen to. They demonstrate a high level of mastery of the English language, yet unashamedly display the "foreign" place of origin, all the work that it took to get to where they are, and besides they are clear to understand and ultimately just sound cool. There's sometimes this idea that you've learned a language when you "sound like a native" but that's wrong - you can both be proficient and not hide who you are and where you came from. English is a modern Lingua Franca and no longer any one place or institution or "nationality" can claim ownership of it, it belongs to the world.
ppl complaining about the 9 hour video part 1 are insane, thank you for introducing me to this two wonderful writers, I had heard the name of Argo but wasnt really aware of who he was until you interviewed him, and dora seems such an interesting person. thank you for this and thanks to dora and argo for the time and stories they gifted us, even if it was hardtimes stories, Im grateful for being able to listen!
16 hours? Will not be able to watch it (even just part 1) all in one go, but I am so glad you did all that work to gather some detailed first-hand accounts about what happened! Keep on doing what you're doing!
I was very hostile to the PMG piece for the same reasons and you've brought me around. But I do think that 'No Kurvitz, no disco' remains true. I don't think it's worth pretending it could happen, and I'm more interested in the projects by inspired studios and the proliferation of the new genre.
Hey, if anything good has come out of this, is that neither Dora and Argo nor Robert or Aleksander will ever have to pay rent again in their lives, they're clearly already living rent free on ZA/UM's managers head's.
4:33:06 I didnt know robert and argo are no longer friends. Is there fault at any of the sides? Was it because argo kept working at the company even after robert & co got fired? (Unless i understood incorrectly)
I don’t know, I didn’t want to focus too much on their personal relationship to be honest, didn’t feel comfortable pressing on that particular wound. Ultimately the con artists at the top of ZAUM are to blame for everything in the end
Honestly the position Argo was put into as he described it would be enough for me to cut ties with a lot of people. For a friend to ambush another and make demands is an incredibly immature and manipulative way to handle any situation, no matter how justified their point may or may not be.
Отец знакомого работает с Курвицом. Сегодня срочно вызвали на совещание. Вернулся поздно и ничего не объяснил. Сказал лишь собирать вещи и бежать в магазин за алкоголем на две недели. Сейчас едем куда-то далеко за город. Не знаю что происходит, но мне кажется началось...
5:06:06 He's referring to Karl Patrick Norberg here. Which i think is important to be clear on, incase any of you are politically organised or within the leftist Milieu in London, this stuff is probably things to consider.
5:06:03 SO BADASS OF ARGO also the whole situation with the HR guy is so absurd and montypythonian, it's a very strong contender for the most disco elysiumesque thing to happen irl
This will take me at least a week to complete. I would’ve prefer if you cut out all the secondary conversation and posted a much shorter version, and then, posted the extra conversation on a second channel of some sort. I realise this would’ve taken a lot of work, I am not complaining, I am merely suggesting what I think will improve the content
I get it, I do, but I already cut a shit ton of stuff from this conversation. I will at some point publish smaller chunks to make it easier to consume but the detail had to be out in as full a version as possible. In fact the only reason it’s split in two is because RUclips limits videos to 12 hours. I don’t expect anyone to finish this quickly, it took us weeks to do, so we fully understand the capacity for people’s attention for this.
3:05:57 Didn't expect to hear an old stereotype about Estonians being slow. Also I doubt anyone understood this was joke, because this stereotype was not widespread in the West, at least Google tells me so.
Hey thank you for pointing this out, I just checked and RUclips had an insane amount of ads placed in the video, maybe the length confused it or something but I’ve fixed it now!
9 hours i will listen to all of.. Why do you do this to me?! If i paid my licence fee i'd give it to you because this will be far preferable to Radio 4 on the sleepless nights.
9 hours later, 2 days after the release of the video, here I am, with lots to take in and reflect on.
The first thing that comes up to mind, though, is this: this extended interview is an incredible testimony on all things related to the ZAUM disaster, expanding on what was already touched upon in the PMG documentary and filling in the gaps which at the time could never be fully explored. After having seen that documentary, the Martin podcast episode, the Aargo one and then this, it feels like we are approaching to shed true light on what has been until today a very dark matter, both because of the abuse and the waste of potential it generated and because of its willingness to remain in obscurity. 9 hours of interview and yet not a single moment was wasted: this truly feels like an essential work that shows exactly what plagued ZAUM and the gaming industry as a whole. I was moved by the sentiments expressed in this, and I truly couldn't be more grateful to 41st Precinct, who gave these creatives a platform to do this, and to Aargo and Dora themselves, since I believe there couldn't be two better options as guests for this episode.
The thing which has striken me the most is the duality between what was perceived from the outside as opposed to what was perceived from the inside. The echo chamber, as Dora and Aargo so excellently put it, made it so information was limited and carefully regulated: you couldn't talk about certain topics and you were severely reprimanded if you even hinted at them. To us, the community of players who loved the original game and followed everything that happened with the studio ever since, the idea that a sequel to Disco Elysium or even an expansion could ever come out without Robert and Rostov involved seemed ludicrous at best, if not downright impossible. When the projects were cancelled one after the other, it didn't come as a surprise to anyone: it felt like a necessary confirmation of what was already evident, which is that nothing would ever come out of ZAUM because it was run like a multi-level marketing scheme. This was also related to another common sentiment in the community, which was that everyone who was left in the studio was a class traitor or something along those lines, because if it was evident that the studio wasn't going to actually produce anything, why would anyone ever stay in it? Well, the answer is actually evident just like it was at the time for anyone who didn't completely buy into the naive narrative that I mentioned before: people need their livelihoods, and that goes beyond any ideological commitment that they might or might not have. Now, we can add another piece to the puzzle: there were people who not only were still committed to the idea of actually making something that would make the fans proud, and not only that, but they still came pretty close to actually doing it, all things considered. The unrecognised struggle of the workers at ZAUM that tried their best to go against all odds and bring any kind of worthy follow-up to Disco Elysium genuinely moved me, and it also brought to light another essential aspect of this affair, which I'll talk about next.
When stuff like this happens, there's always a presumption that the businessmen who are behind allegedly fraudulent schemes like in this case are some cunnings puppetmasters who know exactly what to do and when to do it in order to get bag and run with it. It reminds me of when Trump got elected and people said that Elon Musk's plan of buying Twitter at an overpriced price just came into fruition, having bought his way into the government; since then, everybody is starting to talk about Musk with more attention in regards to what he believes or what he's scheming behind the curtains. In this case, just like in that one, I think we all made the mistake of thinking that these people are smarter than they actually are, and so an essential element to all this goes unmentioned: people like Ilmar Kompus and Tonis Haavel are just really and profoundly incompetent, and the only reason why their actions and opinions haven't fallen into obscurity is that they just have a lot of money, and that gives them more weight than they should hold. The episode where Haavel proudly shared a basic how-to youtube video to a team of game developers is emblematic on this front: one thing is to pretend to care about people only to manipulate them, but from Dora and Aargo's testimonies I got the feeling that these executives actually thought they would be able to deliver new successful games while all they did was make such productions even harder than they should have been. What these people are actually capable of is manipulation: as the two guests said, their jobs essentially boiled down to gossiping together, pitting people one against the other, manipulating vulnerable and often neurodivergent workers to create and mantain a cult-like atmosphere in the studio. It's sick and depraved, but we should also be careful not to fall in the pit of dehumanisation: let's not hand out diagnosis of sociopathy like they meant nothing, because all I've heard about these people makes me think of them as nothing but deeply human and insecure. This is also the basis for what they did in the company: transforming victims into executioners, to the point that it becomes hard to point the finger at anyone.
Don't get me wrong: this doesn't excuse their behaviour, but it does tell us that they probably didn't look at this as a pump and dump scheme, and it's likely that they genuinely believed that what they did was for the good of the company. The issue was one of incompetence and the inability to accept that you might simply be ignorant of the correct process on how to do what you intend to, which is narcissism. And they truly were monumental narcissist, once you stop thinking about it for a single second: how could you be so stupid as to frame yourself as the righteous parent who has to reprimand their children, when the parent never played a videogame in their entire life and the children are actual experienced game developers and the matter of which you're reprimanding them is game development? Imagine a movie producer who never watched a single movie in their lives and then comes up to Scorsese going "Uh, let's hear what this child has to complain about this time..."
I can't help but think that a lot of the entertainment industry suffers from problems similar to this one, but I feel like the videogame industry is especially affected because of how young it is and because of how profitable it is. Businessmen want to get their hands on the millions you gain by selling videogames, but also can't be bothered to be interested about videogames in any way other than a child's plaything: to make Disco Elysium is the same as making a shitty mobile videogame, and this belief is so ingrained into them that they need to protect the belief that they are the right men for the job. From this, here comes the ghost that haunts so many videogame studios today: toxic positivity. We've seen it with Dragon Age: Veilguard and with this video we have a perfect sintomathology of it: the control of information and language; the creation of a public enemy to forge a sense of community; the constant surveillance; the "carrot and stick" mentality you plant in people's heads when you reward them when they demonstrate their loyalty, whether it is with alcohol, fancy hotel rooms or creepy whispered compliments (seriously, what the fuck was that about), and then immediately punish them when they speak their minds or contradict your absolute mandates. It's an exercise in power, and it should not go ignored that these people might simply get psychological satisfaction from mantaining this condition: it's cool to be in power, it's cool to be always right because none is able to contradict you, and aside from all this there's also a good 40k euros a month which helps sweeten the deal.
PART 2 is in the comments
PART 2
When seeing these horrible events being recounted and knowing that they're still unfolding, one might feel a sense of impotency. After all, even if we know everything about it now, we can't do much about it on an individual or even on a community level: the judges will deliberate regardless of what we think, and many of these behaviours will never be truly addressed in a court nor in any other context. However, there is a throughline: the cat is out the bag now, and these environments only manage to function in obscurity. It's funny to see that the first crack came from a blog post by Martin Luiga, who had the power that comes from being a man who had nothing left to lose; but from there, we can't praise enough what the PMG documentary has done to bring all of this to the attention of the people who played and who are passionate about videogames in general. I have been a defender of the PMG doc since day one, even when it was shat on by basically any public Disco figure (and I'm not just saying it for the sake of it, if you wanna check I still have a comment criticising the Jamrock Hobo video in its comment section), and it's precisely because he was incredibly thorough with his investigations while leaving no path untreaded. Many fans wanted the documentary to be downright biased, completely dismissing Robert's firing justification as an excuse and then go from there; however, we only have the context necessary to understand that something foul went on because PMG already provided us with an accurate and incredibly thorough explanation of who these people are and what they have done. Personally, I came out of that documentary with two beliefs in my head: Robert was robbed of the world he created, and also that he knew how to be a bit of a dick when he wanted to. I've always said this: Robert seems to be a pretty hard person to work for and with (as many creative geniuses do), but there is none else I trust to deliver us a true sequel to Disco Elysium. Robert clearly did a lot of questionable things, both as a boss and as a friend, and this does become relevant when he is fired for gross misconduct; although the subsequent firings of both Rostov and Helen clearly show that all of this were flimsy excuses at best, and that it can all be boiled down to a matter of power. People insecure of their own abilities that use other people even more insecure of their abilities (like Justin, a major character in all of this who I would be eager to know the testimony of) to crush anyone passionate or talented enough to bring the spotlight away from them.
When Dora talked about how excited she was when she had those wonderful brainstorming sessions with other creatives who all shared her aesthetic sensibilities and moral convictions, it truly warmed my heart. As someone who is very passionate about media and loves to talk about it with other similar-minded people, I can't express how addicting it is to be with someone like that: hours go by without even realising, and it's often more fulfilling than even creating the art you like to talk about. I loathe the people who corrupted something so pure and unadultered into something so devious: this might be the worst aspect of all of this, that so many young artists put their trust into a studio which they thought to be different only to find out that it was the worst of them all. Unfortunately, this also made it so that this studio was primed to be reforged into a cult-like environment: people weren't there just because of the money or because of convenience, they were there because they loved what the studio stood for and wanted to be part of its future. Think about what you'd do if you were part of the team that was supposed to make the sequel to a game which matters so much to you, like Disco Elysium does to so many people: wouldn't you too try to close your eyes in front of any injustice just to have the opportunity to put even just a small part of yourself into something so important and beautiful? Perhaps the most important take-away from all of this is that even if you believe that you might be immune to this kind of manipulation, you aren't. It doesn't matter how intelligent you are, it doesn't matter what you stand for: there is a lever they can pull that puts you into a mental state of submission, and it's hard to evade it without outside help. I hope this video can make some people realise that they might be in a similar condition and do something about it.
I'll end it here because I'm sure there will be much to talk about when part II comes out too, but I want to say one last thing before I go. This story is now out of their control, and all of the effort which was required to shed light on it would be irrelevant if we do nothing about it. The only power these artists have now is in the community and what the community can offer. They told us that they'll be back at our side, now it's time for us to promise that same thing to them. So smash that 100k goal for Aargo's fundraiser, that's what I'm saying; spread the word, support the artists however you can, and let's never forget of what happened at ZAUM studios.
Thank you, truly, for your writing. It makes telling the whole story worth it. It was a merciless effort to revisit and keep track of it over some 24 hours of recording, an undertaking that left Argo and I drained on a physical level after each session. You ask yourself a lot when you are autopsying a past that is still alive and breathing down your neck: What should be named and what should be laid to rest? And why can't we all stop hurting each other? And is each attempt at dissection another cut that takes this body of work towards an unsalvageable death rather than towards more understanding? If even one person heard it, made sense of it, and came back with as measured a take as you have that makes this whole madness fit into the picture of humanity, it was worth telling.
@@DoraKlindzic It really does look like it was a tremendous undertaking, I can't commend you and Aargo enough for having put yourself through it just to get the truth out there. To think that we live in the cursed timeline where this is the work of yours we all get to enjoy and not the Disco sequel or X7, it's so bleak. The most tragic element in all of this is that so much effort was wasted on projects that'll never see the light of day. It humbles me that you appreciated my writing and I hope that one day, when all of this will just be a distant memory, you'll be able to make sense of this experience.
The winter is almost over, so let the summer be eternal.
@@DoraKlindzic Thank you for taking so much time and painstaking effort with telling your story. Donated to the GoFundMe and hoping we're several steps closer to something beautiful.
This is why having a grasp on basic economics and fraudulent schemes is important, but noooo... Le burgoase is le bad
>NINE HOURS
>PART 1
I'M READY
I'm too sober for this
You madman!
please do a video on the highlights of these 2 parts
@@latinpagliacci I'm sure that if David wants to do a recap (i hope he does at some point!), he will do it himself :)
hi jamrock hobo, you are an important part of disco community and i love you
Mark Twain once said, “I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one.”
Well, I was just thinking about a good alternative to rewatching all the LOTR movies in the director’s cut, and it just magically appeared.
didn't you confuse director's cut to the extended version?
The Deserter: It was real. I'd seen it. I'd seen it *in reality*.
Half-Light: Some kind of great terror. Worse than what you've seen.
You: Seen *what*?
The Deserter: The mask of humanity fall from capital. It has to take it off to kill everyone - everything you love; all the hope and tenderness in the world. It has to take it off, just for one second. To do the deed. And then you see it. As it strangles and beats your friends to death... the sweetest, most courageous people in the world... (he's silent for a second) You see the fear and power in its eyes. Then you *know*.
You: What?
The Deserter: That the bourgeois are not human.
the obvious fact that _the_ sequel couldn't be completed without the essential people they had fired is making me implode.... shot their own foot
"hey so the entire team has problems with the new project, we should sit down and fix things to not demoralise everyone and make a good game" "you're too negative"
I can't believe this shit
“This is why you should join a union” So very true!!
alright one more video before going to bed
corvo ❤
> Should you pirate the game?
> Robert and Rostov no longer receive money for it
In other words, though I already have the original release, it sounds like the extended edition is technically free
I am (in retrospect) a little sad that I bought the game not knowing about the intellectual theft. But I donated a bit to Argo and all Merch I’ll buy will be done by myself or bought from artist on Etsy. They are not getting any of my money…
As someone who's worked in a few very broken company environments it was so perfect to hear such a familiar story, both perspectives were very validating to follow and that point about how you can't describe the experience with words, only people who've been through it understand how real it is and just how distant you can become from your own sense of judgement that would in a lucid place would simply have you leave, the few times I've tried to explain it, no matter how I described it and how much or little detail I used, it was always received at best by a blank, empty, attempt at sympathy or more typically just a dismissive attempt at hiding doubt their in most cases... until you talk to other people that have been through it, then holy sh you see eachother so clearly and the experience so often with different people and different circumstances, feels almost exactly the same just at a different volume depending on how deep you each got stuck
Human can opener episode 1: "Haha I got another Disco Elysium RUclipsr to hang out for a couple hours."
Human can opener now:
another observation after finishing this part - it pains how Robert's pride and defensiveness adds to the grimness of the situation. It was in his power, as a recognised creative lead to gather Argo and whoever else and move on with whatever they come up with next. Instead he cuts Argo out for really infantile grudges. As a narcissistic manipulator himself (as evident by his attitude towards argo, Helen, Rostov), he clearly knows Argo's psychological issues and weaknesses and knows how much trouble his remaining position in ZAUM and alliance with 'The Good' (i.e. recognising Robert as the author, not bonding with all these managers) adds to them. If power is in honest and truly creative people, then it is so silly to push away such rare people away, especially when they contributed to your success. It is just sad. This attitude was forever present among some artists, especially in film and music. Only few kind ones can make the work of healing their ego and allowing growth based on mutual recognition and value.
The people who fucked over ZAUM shouldn't be surprised the disco fandom of all things are praying on their downfall, can't wait to finish this vid
thank u for this. Would also love a shorter version as well, and i think it'd help the cause a lot and get more reach for everyone
All in good time :)
@@The41stPrecinct good luck editing this behemoth down lmao, amazing work though good questions and all that.
Just starting to watch the video. Thank you for all of this dedication and hard work.
Know this is gonna be good since I heard the “God please” track immediately
I like the fact that you put a fan-made track in the beginning of the video
Paul was a great guest on the podcast! Love that guy!
@@The41stPrecinct didn't know that you had podcast with him. Sad that your videos don't have that many views. Anyway wish you luck with all that is going on
HOLY SHIT! IT'S HERE!
holyyyyy shit youre spoiling us. unfortunately its about what will likely be a sad topic. still, ill probably watch every hour of it. having not seen any yet, i hope content like this repairs relationships between the more well-intended and creative ex-members of ZA/UM, opens doors for more communication with the public and future projects for us fans, and ultimately, more Elysium IP from its rightful originators. good work!
tHANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR HARD WORK!!
THE BEST TO DO IT!! 41st PRECINCT!!!🔥❤️
I'm ready but also very much not ready but also so ready for this
Doctor: you have 9 hours to live
Me: aww Ill miss the part two
Dora is radio astronomer?, she is basically irl version of pale researcher
Edit: it's a little awkward at the start where Argo speaks for an hour while she is just there watching silently.
1:52:00 ZAUM 2022 - Justin's Heresy
This is awesome, truly amazing and awesome. 3 hours in and i intend to watch all of it, part 2 included. Thanks for producing such amazing, in depth work. I am hugely regretful that Disco Elysium will never see a proper sequel. My heart goes out to everyone who was fucked over, and I sincerely wish that their spirit has not been completely crushed by this. Please continue to make games or whatever else, and come back with a vengeance.
great stuff, I really hope that these conversations can help the Disco people heal and maybe even reconcile
This is so good
Ooph, now that's a banger and a half!
Just subscribed so I can watch every minute of this saga.
The hilarious thing to me is, that I’m 99,9% sure that the ZA/UM executives are soaking up this video just as the fans do and that they’ll probably read our comments.
Wish I knew how to say “FUCK YOU” more eloquently than I do…
I needed a new 3 hour video to watch while I do work in the background.. and this came out.
Seriously, you’ve been doing god’s work for the Disco community. Thank you so so much for what you do
Let world hear this story!
DUDE i'm so ready to binge this in one sitting
How's the binging going?
@@looking4afix deliciously (and it's full of the Horrors)
I embark on my quest, the journey will be arduous but the reward is great
2:24:25 everything Argo is talking about here is so fucking true it hurts
Just finished the Argo interview too, you're smothering us in content man 😭
watching through! i think there's a chance that dora would love playing outer wilds
also: 2:02:49 kitty
Nice timing with this one, just beating the Noclip docu to the punch.
Hehe well I didn’t see it like that, I can’t wait for their doc! :)
thank you
Sixteen more hours of disco. Hardcore
I'll need 2 working days to get through this. Tommorow is friday. Damn.
i don't tend to watch the content about what happened to zaum (never seen the pmg documentary for example) because it all just breaks my heart so much. i probably won't watch all of this, but i do appreciate you doing the work to try to get this out there. as a writer and just a creative person in general, what happened to zaum is truly a nightmare scenario. all i can do is hope the courts rule the way we all believe they should.
Once again, I can’t believe you actually managed to get all those people together! 9 hours of awesome stuff
4 hours 38 minutes 9 seconds at twice speed.
That's STILL so long.
Thorough's thorough.
IT HAS ALL BEEN LEADING TO THIS
Truly a remarkable work. I love it when there are videos that fight the algorithmic rules of attention span.
Kind of a tangent but both Dora's and Argo's accents are to me so pleasant to listen to. They demonstrate a high level of mastery of the English language, yet unashamedly display the "foreign" place of origin, all the work that it took to get to where they are, and besides they are clear to understand and ultimately just sound cool.
There's sometimes this idea that you've learned a language when you "sound like a native" but that's wrong - you can both be proficient and not hide who you are and where you came from. English is a modern Lingua Franca and no longer any one place or institution or "nationality" can claim ownership of it, it belongs to the world.
4 hours in, great podcast
🫶
Clicks download button on RUclips. Phone explodes 😂
commenting for the algorithm
Don't let the Moralintern see this
I'm almost done with disco elysium a know a bit about what happened with the dev team. can't wait to finish the game and come back to watch this
Thank you for what you do!
A thousand times!
I'm sorry, 9 hours _PART ONE_?
😬
im bouta watch this so hard
A man with a fork in a world of soup
ppl complaining about the 9 hour video part 1 are insane, thank you for introducing me to this two wonderful writers, I had heard the name of Argo but wasnt really aware of who he was until you interviewed him, and dora seems such an interesting person. thank you for this and thanks to dora and argo for the time and stories they gifted us, even if it was hardtimes stories, Im grateful for being able to listen!
Commenting for the algorithms and spreading this information
16 hours? Will not be able to watch it (even just part 1) all in one go, but I am so glad you did all that work to gather some detailed first-hand accounts about what happened! Keep on doing what you're doing!
trying to help this video in the algorithm by commenting, I hope the employees get their justice
I was very hostile to the PMG piece for the same reasons and you've brought me around. But I do think that 'No Kurvitz, no disco' remains true. I don't think it's worth pretending it could happen, and I'm more interested in the projects by inspired studios and the proliferation of the new genre.
They will return their rights. I know it.
Egghead really pulled trought
wake up hon, new documentary just dropped!
HOLY ACTUAL SHIT
Hey, if anything good has come out of this, is that neither Dora and Argo nor Robert or Aleksander will ever have to pay rent again in their lives, they're clearly already living rent free on ZA/UM's managers head's.
Only 9 minutes?
Bro 9 hours omfg
Jesus, 16 hours.
I’m really sorry 😂
@The41stPrecinct nah its mighty impressive, thank you 41st 🙏
oh god time to strap in
i appreciate the depth provided by the 16h runtime, but do you plan on making a more edited down version?
I will release shorter clips at a later point in time yes
@ nice!!!!
4:33:06 I didnt know robert and argo are no longer friends. Is there fault at any of the sides? Was it because argo kept working at the company even after robert & co got fired? (Unless i understood incorrectly)
I don’t know, I didn’t want to focus too much on their personal relationship to be honest, didn’t feel comfortable pressing on that particular wound.
Ultimately the con artists at the top of ZAUM are to blame for everything in the end
@The41stPrecinct very fair, I just thought maybe I missed something. Thanks again for your work
Honestly the position Argo was put into as he described it would be enough for me to cut ties with a lot of people. For a friend to ambush another and make demands is an incredibly immature and manipulative way to handle any situation, no matter how justified their point may or may not be.
part 1??????????? god damnnn
3:47:32 “well let’s call that the end of part 1 then”
lies.
Hahaha I spotted that and was like “shall I take that out?” And decided no, I will allow myself this one troll moment
@@The41stPrecinct Haha, very fair.
Part One: Part Two, the sequel to Part One. Not to be confused with Part Two.
This will only be authentic if there is never a Part Two.
@@boatguy_ damn
let's goooo
Верните Роберта Курвица!!!
Отец знакомого работает с Курвицом. Сегодня срочно вызвали на совещание. Вернулся поздно и ничего не объяснил. Сказал лишь собирать вещи и бежать в магазин за алкоголем на две недели. Сейчас едем куда-то далеко за город. Не знаю что происходит, но мне кажется началось...
5:06:06 He's referring to Karl Patrick Norberg here. Which i think is important to be clear on, incase any of you are politically organised or within the leftist Milieu in London, this stuff is probably things to consider.
Hour 8, I still dont get the comment of that 7 hour mark guy 🥴
5:06:03 SO BADASS OF ARGO
also the whole situation with the HR guy is so absurd and montypythonian, it's a very strong contender for the most disco elysiumesque thing to happen irl
PART 1, NINE HOURS???
This will take me at least a week to complete. I would’ve prefer if you cut out all the secondary conversation and posted a much shorter version, and then, posted the extra conversation on a second channel of some sort. I realise this would’ve taken a lot of work, I am not complaining, I am merely suggesting what I think will improve the content
I get it, I do, but I already cut a shit ton of stuff from this conversation. I will at some point publish smaller chunks to make it easier to consume but the detail had to be out in as full a version as possible.
In fact the only reason it’s split in two is because RUclips limits videos to 12 hours.
I don’t expect anyone to finish this quickly, it took us weeks to do, so we fully understand the capacity for people’s attention for this.
I am 3 hours in
Удивлен, что берет интервью какой-то лысый мужик, а не Сурен
3:05:57 Didn't expect to hear an old stereotype about Estonians being slow. Also I doubt anyone understood this was joke, because this stereotype was not widespread in the West, at least Google tells me so.
ok i guess im watching this whole thing now
"Big element of daddy"
Holy shit
Hey man, one ad litteraly each 5 minutes is really damaging the experience of listening 😞
Not something I control! It’s automated, I’ll should be able to make it less aggressive though, let have a look
@The41stPrecinct thank you 🙏 impressive work btw, I love your channel
Hey thank you for pointing this out, I just checked and RUclips had an insane amount of ads placed in the video, maybe the length confused it or something but I’ve fixed it now!
@@The41stPrecinct Great !
Does this episode include spoilers for Disco Elysium?
No
Suggestion: (Success) They'll put him away for this. Whoever "they" are.
9 hours??? what do you mean part1????
9 HOURS?! WITHOUT ANY WARNING?!
the disco ofour elsiyiumk
Good god
Volume too low :(
I wanted to hear this in my kitchen
How far away is your kitchen? 300 miles?
9 hours i will listen to all of.. Why do you do this to me?!
If i paid my licence fee i'd give it to you because this will be far preferable to Radio 4 on the sleepless nights.
LET'S FUCKING GOOOOOO
9 hours 🤣 Definitely not a single sitting watch from me, this might affect your retention stats on RUclips!
Ahh they’re garbage anyway 😆
9 hours? What the fuck?