Thank you Andy for tackling my confusion. The question is stated correctly, all parties are from my maternal side. You answered my questions where I am able to understand and see visually. I too had to draw it out, lol. You show "G" with two wives which is correct. "C" is my grandfather 1/2 brother and my grandmother 1st cousin so he is double related to my mom and me. Kudos to you.
This was more complicated than two 1st cousins marrying a brother and sister from another family. Now I know that both couples had children, those would be 1st cousins on one side and 2nd cousins on the other (of my granddad). So my Dad may have had some 2nd-3rd double cousins I may have some 3rd-4th double cousins out there somewhere if those double 1st-2nd cousins of my Granddad had children and grandchildren. Since that I've come across a pair of siblings in another related family who married a pair of siblings from another, which sounds like the simplest and probably most common double relationship situation where the children of the two couples would just be double 1st cousins.
Very interesting video, complicated, but for anyone who gets a little lost just rewatch this a few times, maybe even pause the video and make notes, do your own sketch, maybe print your own parents and grandparents in so it's more relatable to you, easier to understand. Once other thing that I think would be really helpful, as I've just found this happening in a situation where I thought the two halves of my tree we're not interelated (and maybe they aren't, but they are for some of my matches, some very distant cousins on each side have gotten together and had children, maybe 3rd or 4th cousins), is to add into this scenario a situation where a grandparent has tested as well as you, where they are only related on one line, but you are related through your other parent's line to the match as well. I haven't linked any of these up yet on my tree, as they are so distant, a best case scenario is one where my grandpa matches 18cM with the match, but I match 26cM (a lot I only have 1 or 2cMs extra). It has gotten me thinking about the Kevin Bacon comment about the 7 degrees of separation and everyone being related to greatly everyone else, of maybe it was everyone's related to Kevin Bacon (or maybe this was just friends of friends, I forget, but the concept remains the same)!!!!
Love to see how others think about these knotty problems! Why did you assume that "G" had two wives? Couldn't "C" and "V" be related withOUT the half? (simply great-niece?)
Thanks for the idea of the diagram... I have another, more confusing family tree... My maternal great grandparents have ancestors in the same family. My great grandfather, Oliver, is 6 generations removed from Johann Ludwig Knauss and his wife-my great grandmother, Caroline, is 7 generations removed from the same couple. To make matters worse, or more interesting, Oliver is related to a 6th great grandfather, John Wigard Levering, thru John's two daughters Sybilla and Catherine... No matter how many pictures I draw I still have problems making connections thru my DNA but I will continue to try. Thanks again for the video
I understand that when you have multiple relationship connections, one of the research methods that can be helpful is looking at longer length continuous segments…..but what is considered a “long” segment? 50cM? 80cM?
I've been lucky with dna. I found my dad's family, I didn't have luck as I did my mom's side with names and birth dates and death. So now I know past my great grandparents on my dad's side up til my 7th
My one set of Paternal 5th GGP's and My maternal 4th GGP are the same people. I think I am my own 7th cousin. My DNA Matches have been a struggle. Lots of people that match at the 2nd cousin level end up being 4th and 5th cousins and so on.
I thought a great aunt was a grandparent's sister, not aunt, so I thought they meant their mother's mother's sister just to say which side she was on. If that were the case, and she was the only wife of the mother's father's father... she would also be the mother of V's mother's father, which would mean their child married his mother's sister. That sounds too close...! She would have to be the step-mother of V's mother's father, [almost] as in your diagram. But if it was that V's grandfather married his aunt, then V's mother would be his daughter and his 1st cousin at the same time (she would be her own 1st cousin once removed), and V would be his granddaughter and 1st cousin once removed at the same time. I think that would mean she is her own 2nd cousin once removed?! V's mum is then also her 1st cousin twice removed one way round and also her 2nd cousin the other way around, which is a triple relationship. Does that make any sense? I thint the diagram needs to show all the relationships with V, her mother and her maternal grandmother appearing twice. At least that's how I'd work it out, if A is G's only wife and is also the mother of V's maternal grandfather!
Maybe what I mean is easier to put into a diagram, which can be drawn two ways (+!) depending on which person is there once and which are repeated. A bit tricky to draw in comments! M=V's mother; mf = mother's father, etc., G=mff A = mff = mfm mmf=mmm [if mm & mf, M & V are there once] | | ___|__ | | | | C mf = mm A = mff | | M C | V If A and C only appear once instead of mm, mf and M: mmf = mmm __|__ | | mf = mm A = mff = mfm | | | | | M C mf=mm (A) = mff | | | V M (C) etc. I V this looks like each [A-C or mf=mm-M-V] section can be repeated over and over and mm, A, C, M and V are all related to each other an infinite number of times.... ! Not just doubly related.
This would all be wrong if 'maternal maternal great aunt' really meant V's mother's great aunt on her mother's side or (really V's great-great-aunt) like in the video putting her on the same generation as V's great grandfather. But you could still get an infinitely repeating tree spreading out on the same generation instead of going down generations.
I was similarly wondering if they meant the ‘only’ wife of the maternal paternal great grandfather was the maternal maternal great aunt and thus both maternal grandparents would be related to the maternal maternal great aunt.
I agree that V almost certainly meant her own great-aunt (sometimes called a grandaunt) who is located on V's maternal maternal line, which is to say the line of V's maternal grandmother, or in other words V's maternal grandmother's sister.
@@MrDannyDetail Yes it all depends on how that relation is defined; whose sister she is. After thinking about it again, I am still mistaken about it creating infinite number of relationships because really you can only draw each person once, which means multiple lines joining them, which seems confusing. Putting one person once and the others twice makes sense of the relationships, but somehow the diagram then needs to be folded on itself to put the duplicates together. It's hard to see how to draw that in the simplest way. The diagram in the video is probably the best, despite the great aunt really being V's great-great-aunt. The infinity comes from going around the same loop multiple times. It's like being in a room with mirrors on opposite walls very slightly off parallel. It means you can see the back of your head in the reflection of the reflection but all the subsequent reflections are echos of the first. There's only one version of you.
Confusing relationship help if two brothers have children with the same woman how will that DNA breakdown look percentage wise. Would the sibling show as closer than half siblings ?
My material 1st Cousin is also my paternal 3rd Cousin she married my paternal 4th Cousin 1x removed, they had kids. Does that mean their kids are triple cousins to me?
I'm trying to answer your question on how my question and yours relate and there really isn't an easy answer. I believe there are many similarities but with the surprise DNA match being adopted, it becomes very complicated. I think I will need to send you this scenario via email lol :). My head is spinning
Thank you Andy for tackling my confusion. The question is stated correctly, all parties are from my maternal side. You answered my questions where I am able to understand and see visually. I too had to draw it out, lol. You show "G" with two wives which is correct. "C" is my grandfather 1/2 brother and my grandmother 1st cousin so he is double related to my mom and me. Kudos to you.
This was more complicated than two 1st cousins marrying a brother and sister from another family. Now I know that both couples had children, those would be 1st cousins on one side and 2nd cousins on the other (of my granddad). So my Dad may have had some 2nd-3rd double cousins I may have some 3rd-4th double cousins out there somewhere if those double 1st-2nd cousins of my Granddad had children and grandchildren.
Since that I've come across a pair of siblings in another related family who married a pair of siblings from another, which sounds like the simplest and probably most common double relationship situation where the children of the two couples would just be double 1st cousins.
Very interesting video, complicated, but for anyone who gets a little lost just rewatch this a few times, maybe even pause the video and make notes, do your own sketch, maybe print your own parents and grandparents in so it's more relatable to you, easier to understand.
Once other thing that I think would be really helpful, as I've just found this happening in a situation where I thought the two halves of my tree we're not interelated (and maybe they aren't, but they are for some of my matches, some very distant cousins on each side have gotten together and had children, maybe 3rd or 4th cousins), is to add into this scenario a situation where a grandparent has tested as well as you, where they are only related on one line, but you are related through your other parent's line to the match as well.
I haven't linked any of these up yet on my tree, as they are so distant, a best case scenario is one where my grandpa matches 18cM with the match, but I match 26cM (a lot I only have 1 or 2cMs extra). It has gotten me thinking about the Kevin Bacon comment about the 7 degrees of separation and everyone being related to greatly everyone else, of maybe it was everyone's related to Kevin Bacon (or maybe this was just friends of friends, I forget, but the concept remains the same)!!!!
Love to see how others think about these knotty problems! Why did you assume that "G" had two wives? Couldn't "C" and "V" be related withOUT the half? (simply great-niece?)
Thanks for the idea of the diagram... I have another, more confusing family tree... My maternal great grandparents have ancestors in the same family. My great grandfather, Oliver, is 6 generations removed from Johann Ludwig Knauss and his wife-my great grandmother, Caroline, is 7 generations removed from the same couple. To make matters worse, or more interesting, Oliver is related to a 6th great grandfather, John Wigard Levering, thru John's two daughters Sybilla and Catherine...
No matter how many pictures I draw I still have problems making connections thru my DNA but I will continue to try.
Thanks again for the video
I understand that when you have multiple relationship connections, one of the research methods that can be helpful is looking at longer length continuous segments…..but what is considered a “long” segment? 50cM? 80cM?
This was great, thanks. I have a few of these types of relationships and will try doing this to work them out.
How do we get on the list to submit our questions? Are only abstract questions be asked or can we ask specific research/DNA questions?
Nice white boarding! Way to go Andy!
Thanks 👍
I know confusion I had great grandparents marry and they are first cousins. My cousin confirmed it. Glad that was it for that family.
I've been lucky with dna. I found my dad's family, I didn't have luck as I did my mom's side with names and birth dates and death. So now I know past my great grandparents on my dad's side up til my 7th
Is there any website we can upload a GEDcom to that lists ALL multiple relationships?
My one set of Paternal 5th GGP's and My maternal 4th GGP are the same people. I think I am my own 7th cousin. My DNA Matches have been a struggle. Lots of people that match at the 2nd cousin level end up being 4th and 5th cousins and so on.
I thought a great aunt was a grandparent's sister, not aunt, so I thought they meant their mother's mother's sister just to say which side she was on. If that were the case, and she was the only wife of the mother's father's father... she would also be the mother of V's mother's father, which would mean their child married his mother's sister. That sounds too close...! She would have to be the step-mother of V's mother's father, [almost] as in your diagram.
But if it was that V's grandfather married his aunt, then V's mother would be his daughter and his 1st cousin at the same time (she would be her own 1st cousin once removed), and V would be his granddaughter and 1st cousin once removed at the same time. I think that would mean she is her own 2nd cousin once removed?! V's mum is then also her 1st cousin twice removed one way round and also her 2nd cousin the other way around, which is a triple relationship. Does that make any sense? I thint the diagram needs to show all the relationships with V, her mother and her maternal grandmother appearing twice. At least that's how I'd work it out, if A is G's only wife and is also the mother of V's maternal grandfather!
Maybe what I mean is easier to put into a diagram, which can be drawn two ways (+!) depending on which person is there once and which are repeated. A bit tricky to draw in comments!
M=V's mother; mf = mother's father, etc., G=mff
A = mff = mfm mmf=mmm [if mm & mf, M & V are there once]
| | ___|__
| | | |
C mf = mm A = mff
| |
M C
|
V
If A and C only appear once instead of mm, mf and M:
mmf = mmm
__|__
| |
mf = mm A = mff = mfm
| | | | |
M C mf=mm (A) = mff
| | |
V M (C) etc.
I
V this looks like each [A-C or mf=mm-M-V] section can be repeated over and over and mm, A, C, M and V are all related to each other an infinite number of times.... ! Not just doubly related.
This would all be wrong if 'maternal maternal great aunt' really meant V's mother's great aunt on her mother's side or (really V's great-great-aunt) like in the video putting her on the same generation as V's great grandfather. But you could still get an infinitely repeating tree spreading out on the same generation instead of going down generations.
I was similarly wondering if they meant the ‘only’ wife of the maternal paternal great grandfather was the maternal maternal great aunt and thus both maternal grandparents would be related to the maternal maternal great aunt.
I agree that V almost certainly meant her own great-aunt (sometimes called a grandaunt) who is located on V's maternal maternal line, which is to say the line of V's maternal grandmother, or in other words V's maternal grandmother's sister.
@@MrDannyDetail Yes it all depends on how that relation is defined; whose sister she is.
After thinking about it again, I am still mistaken about it creating infinite number of relationships because really you can only draw each person once, which means multiple lines joining them, which seems confusing.
Putting one person once and the others twice makes sense of the relationships, but somehow the diagram then needs to be folded on itself to put the duplicates together. It's hard to see how to draw that in the simplest way. The diagram in the video is probably the best, despite the great aunt really being V's great-great-aunt.
The infinity comes from going around the same loop multiple times.
It's like being in a room with mirrors on opposite walls very slightly off parallel. It means you can see the back of your head in the reflection of the reflection but all the subsequent reflections are echos of the first. There's only one version of you.
Confusing relationship help if two brothers have children with the same woman how will that DNA breakdown look percentage wise. Would the sibling show as closer than half siblings ?
My material 1st Cousin is also my paternal 3rd Cousin she married my paternal 4th Cousin 1x removed, they had kids.
Does that mean their kids are triple cousins to me?
So, which relationship do we say? Do we say B is both viewer's third cousin AND half second cousin?
Yes, that is correct.
How is it that my sister’s cM count is 4214, when typically on avg siblings are between 2200-2600. My Mom is 3488.
I'm trying to answer your question on how my question and yours relate and there really isn't an easy answer. I believe there are many similarities but with the surprise DNA match being adopted, it becomes very complicated. I think I will need to send you this scenario via email lol :). My head is spinning
Could you please go back and explain the half niece and half cousin?
I think half niece is because V's-grandfather is half sibling of C: G is father of both of them but with different mothers.