Man y'all are either VERY dense, or not pilots. "Your discretion, line up and wait for wake turbulence" is pretty easy to understand. "Line up and wait" means LINE UP on the runway and WAIT FOR TAKEOFF CLEARENCE. "At your discretion" Is due to the wake turbulence... If he feels that it is unsafe to line up and wait due to the W/T... then that is HIS DISCRETION to keep holding short. If you do not hear "CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF" then you DO NOT TAKEOFF. Come on guys. This is NOT ATC's fault
Even if you think this is non-standard phraseology, you *ask* , or you read it back as "cleared for takeoff at my discretion" so you get bonked *before* you make the mistake. That's what readbacks are for, if you think you're clear, you read back that you're clear.
Yeah, he didn't even read back cleared for takeoff. It seems he had a case of "get-there-itis" and decided to clear himself which is inexcusable. It would have taken a few seconds to ask, "Confirm clear for takeoff Runway 27 Left, N69PK?" Instead we're all here to witness his ignominy.
I’ve dealt with many different controllers who weren’t exactly clear however Ive never failed to hear them say cleared for takeoff or cleared to land. Without those 3 words you don’t do it .. end of
This happened forever ago. I was confused that this happened again before I realized it's months old. And obviously there's no "takeoff at your discretion"
I'm not trying to stir the pot here? But I've never heard anyone day "line up and wait at you're descetion". I could see how that could be confusing. What did the pilot read back?
@@zaphodbeeblebrox2911exactly, those were my thoughts too. The controller knows that pilots more often than not hold short of the runway for a while for pre-takeoff tasks like engine run-up, takeoff brief, etc.
@@zaphodbeeblebrox2911 For an SR22? The pre-takeoff checks for most light piston prop planes takes about 10 seconds and is just verifications (radios, flaps, doors, throttle) and then MIST when cleared on. He should've also completed already in the designated GA runup area or the ramp because a controller and everyone else is going to be pissed if you are doing your runup at the hold short line for the active.
Unless you hear the word "takeoff" you don't have a takeoff clearance. It's the only time you should ever hear it. Otherwise it's "Departure". There is no at your discretion. Glad nobody got hurt, no attitudes were on display, hopefully it will be a professional phone call, a learning experience, a NASA ASRS report, and call it a day.
@@girngrodriguez5366 The guy who commented said “the pilot said he is clear for takeoff”, like he read back a takeoff clearance without being issued one. I said that is not even true, he didn’t read back a takeoff clearance, get it or you’re still drinking?
As a pilot i see no fault with the ATC, line up and wait comand was given, no take off clearance. The "at your descression was refering to the wake turbulence from the American aircraft. Tower was telling the pilot to line up and wait for takeoff but gave the wake turbulence hold to the pilot allowing yhe pilot to wait 2 minutes before lineing up if hed prefer. Atc did a great job.
@@Digitalgems9000 no it didn’t lol. Just like exit at your discretion means exit your discretion. Taxi your discretion means taxi your discretion. I got “altitude your discretion” and “base turn your discretion yesterday.” Guess what those meant. Hint, neither referred to taking off.
I feel sorry for the pilot. Trying to take off in a Cirrus at Philly International cant be easy. He was probably fully task saturated with trying to follow taxi instructions. Some of the initial calls suggested that he was having some trouble figuring out the taxi routes to the runway.
I agree with the other commenters. In listening to the audio, the controller did not give authorization to take off but did he did say, "at your discretion, line up and wait". I am not familiar with that term. I could speculate that the controller was suggesting the aircraft to line up and wait when he felt it was safe to do so after the AA departure but that is not a standard term. I could see myself making a similar mistake if given those instructions. Good opportunity for everyone to learn.
Then you must be an exceptional pilot. I have never been given a line up and wait at my discretion directive. As for my comment, I have the same right as everyone else to share my thoughts and opinions.
@@HobbitHobbitwhy would you make that mistake? There is only one way for you to legally take off and that is if you hear the words: cleared for take off. There are no other words that allow you to take off. “At your discretion” is very common in aviation. Now to “line up and wait at your discretion” might be less common, but it will be used occasionally. I’ve heard it a few times myself. There was nothing to be confused about here.
@@HobbitHobbit you must not be an exceptional pilot, and yes, you are entitled to have all the wrong information in your head that you want. But sharing that wrong info with the world is Ill-advised.
@@RetreadPhoto they have no *wrong* information at all, they just said they were unfamiliar with the term. You should chill and not yell at people if you genuinely want other readers to take the information presumably coming from you, and leave the disinformation potentially coming from others. The way you're doing it you're just going to have people think you're in the wrong.
I think that’s a good way of putting it, although pilots don’t report to ATC. Pilot deviation from commands issued is a serious “you might be in trouble” conversation. It’s done off radio and the tapes are played back to confirm what happened. If the pilot did deviate from instructions then they are subject to disciplinary action and it can be very serious. Lots of forms to fill out and sometimes remedial training. You can also be grounded from flying if it’s serious enough.
@@craniumrex4614it doesn’t have to be a bad thing. What happens is, the controller just wants your side of the story. Most of the time, if the controller feels that the pilot learned his lesson and won’t repeat this, they will just let it go. Otherwise they will start the proper report for the FAA. I’ve been asked to call once. I was flying a small jet as an air ambulance. The controller did not give me the right of way. They asked me to call and the facility manager apologized to me and said they would have a debrief with the controller about this.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 hey thanks for the clarification. The world could learn so much from this type of engagement - it’s not about punishment so much as clarifying and/or making people better and more safe. Thanks for taking the time to expand on that. Love learning new things!
A takeoff clearance includes the current wind direction and velocity, which was not present in this LUAW instruction, so not cleared for takeoff. And of course, when in doubt, query ATC first.
It makes sense, I think the controller’s intent was fairly obvious. “You’re good to line up now if you want but considering an airliner just departed you can also wait a bit for it to clear out.” I think the controller was trying to be helpful but made a nonstandard directive out of standard phraseology which is ripe for miscommunication. Regardless, the pilot should have had the SA to say “I’m departing after a bigger plane just left, I should wait anyway to let the wake turbulence die off a bit and that makes sense with the clearance he gave me”. Personally I think the controller should have just waited the necessary amount for departure separation and then given the line up and wait or the takeoff clearance instead of basically telling the pilot “you can enter if you want or you can wait that’s fine too”. It’s a weird thing in the states that it feels like many towers either try to max perform separation intervals to the point a go around or emergency could become more dangerous because they really counted on the spacing working out. As time goes on I really dislike the way we clear multiple aircraft for landing and this feels in that same vein although again ultimately the POC is the final authority on how the plane is operated and therefore should have ultimate SA. The controller in my opinion ought to have just let the one minute or whatever it is pass by in awkward silence and assumed the pilot would be competent enough to understand why, and even if they weren’t there wouldn’t be any confusion even if there was a bit of silence on the radios. “Cleared for takeoff” or “cleared to land” should genuinely mean the entire runway is yours to take for however much time and distance you need it for, not “following the guy landing in front of you” or “after these vortices die down”.
Perhaps “your discretion” was intended to equate to “you can do it immediately or when ready but no rush”… similar context to “no delay” when used to express urgency of taking off to prevent someone at close interval on final from having to initiate a go-around. Idk. Can’t say I’ve heard it used in this context either.
I’ve never heard this before either, but I’m pretty sure it just means: hold short of the runway and do whatever pre-takeoff tasks you need to do, then line up wait when ready. Similar to what @cajinguy218 thought as well.
@@11290slkI thought so too but wake turbulence wouldn’t affect an aircraft until he was on takeoff roll. And he was given line up and wait. So to me that would have been more appropriate with “your discretion, cleared for takeoff” and even in that case, “cleared for takeoff” would have been the most appropriate.
After being issued a Brasher, is the pilot affirmatively obligated to call the phone number given ASAP (like, after landing), or can the pilot wait a day or two in order to speak with qualified counsel first? Can pilot's qualified counsel make the call instead? What generally transpires during these phone calls? I don't want to ever find out, but this information would be good to know in advance if that day ever comes.
There’s nothing that requires you to actually call the number, but ignoring it will not make it go away. The best course of action is to call the number, provide your name and certificate number, and do not admit to anything. If you are unclear as to what the deviation is for, they will tell you. The call will be recorded and anything you say will be used against you.
@@bubbaoriley7864 Well in that case, I will say the following: Out here in the fields I fight for my meals I get my back into my living I don't need to fight To prove I'm right I don't need to be forgiven
@ATCAUDIO, through the energised debate in the Comments section about whose fault this was, we found an error in your video. At 1:12 you’ve labelled the jet readback as N69PK in the caption. You’ve got it in red to align with the colour you’ve assigned to the AA Jet 1936 but just put the wrong text in. This txt should read AA1936 not N69PK.
You call the number you got and explain what happened from your perspective. if it happens due to an error and no intention, there will likely be no more than a warning against you. you can also file a report call ASAP with the FAA to cover yourself.
@@amitaiitzkovitch8867 minor correction. The report is called ASRS and it’s with NASA. It also only covers you against enforcement actions in certain circumstances, but does not cover the black mark against your certificate that follows you around forever.
@@rona4960 Line Up and Wait is only used at busy airports to increase traffic flow during high density operations. While the meaning of what the controller said can be understood, it’s still an utterly stupid thing to give someone discretion to line up and wait as it serves zero useful purpose. That’s why you will never hear those two things used together. The controller sounds as if he was not quite ready for prime time.
@@Ndub1036 For those that do understand how it works it only starts when an aircraft is airborne and for a transport category jet that’s at least half a mile away from the other aircraft who would be on the ground and not moving. Feel free to explain how that would be in any way a safety concern. Should be entertaining.
Did junior high just get out? How could there possibly be a dozen people immediately jump on this and try to defend the pilot who doesn’t know what he’s doing (yet)?
your discretion, runway 27, line up and wait. Standardized or not, it's clear. And if you'll remember at the beginning, the pilot had already screwed up on taxi instructions. He didn't have his head on straight.
"at your discretion" should never be given before a takeoff clearance. Either you give him the instructions to line up and wait or you wait before you take the runway for a take off clearance. Adds way to much confusion, especially right before take off. That controller was wrong for doing that. The pilot is still at fault though.
You prob don’t fly a small plane out of a busy Charlie often then. I hear it often and politely wait two minutes until my tiny plane isn’t going to be turned over.
ATC are partially responsible for the confusion. "Takeoff at discretion" is a real instruction at some airports (even fully controlled ones) when the controller can't be sure it is safe to clear you (e.g. if you're a helicopter landing in an area that isn't a runway). But there's no reason to instruct "line up at discretion" because wake turbulence can have no effect on an aircraft lined up at the runway threshold (the turbulence won't even start until the rotation point of the previous aircraft). So using the word discretion is dangerous as it is often used in the context of takeoff or landing. There are some words you shouldn't use unless you mean them and discretion is one of them. It suggests the pilot can do what they want.
This is incorrect. The “take off at your discretion” does not come as a message on its own. It will be preceded with the controller saying: “we are unable to provide you with a take off clearance” or something similar. This was about Jet blast. Jet blast from a large jet is very dangerous to a small aircraft. But the reason the controller says “wake turbulence” is because he knows he can’t give the small airplane a take off clearance for a few minutes, due to wake turbulence. So, since the small airplane has to wait, probably 3 minutes, it’s his discretion when he wants to line up.
I’ve heard the term “at your discretion” a bunch of times although the point is moot. Whether it’s standard or not it sounds nothing like “cleared” or “for” or “takeoff” which are the ONLY WORDS EVER USED for a pilot to, you know, take off. 🙄 Pilot read back same way and if he didn’t know what ATC meant he might have asked. Feeling like you might look silly is a small price to pay for not dying or killing others
@@bubbaoriley7864 untrue. It’s handled the same by the FSDO whether they call back or not. Only a little more work for us ASI’s, but doesn’t affect the investigation.
@@Ndub1036 You do understand there’s more steps to the process, right? The ATC LOB doesn’t refer every single case to FSDO and some of them most certainly will not be. Not calling them pretty much guarantees it will be. You aren’t the only one who has inside knowledge of the FAA.
@@bubbaoriley7864 oh darn a referral. I’d rather not put something on record for the investigation and follow the advice of every single aviation lawyer. You guys think you’re god with those meaningless referrals.
@@girngrodriguez5366 You didn’t “listen” to the audio. He said “at your discretion line up and wait for wake turbulence”, timestamp 1:19. Again, cleared for takeoff is a takeoff clearance not line up and wait. The pilot even read back line up and wait, timestamp 1:24. I guess you didn’t hear that part either. Go ahead and time stamp the “cleared for takeoff” by the tower”. I’ll wait.
With a full factory warranty, using the dealer was the wise decision. I also have a strap wrench that may have worked. It's a different design than the plastic one you attempted to use.
Nope. Never said cleared. Never said takeoff. Taxi and take the active runway to line up and wait “at your discretion (not rushed or immediately)… for wake turbulence.” Clear as day.
@@ra2186 You're the one making reference to what's "standard". It's standard that unless you hear the words "cleared for takeoff", you are not cleared for takeoff. Those are the only words that can be used to issue a takeoff clearance. *That* is the standard. It's literally in the regs. So, yes, it is as clear as day. But in any case, both "at your discretion" and "line up and wait" *are* standard terms, and the controller used them both with their ordinary meanings - which, since you seem to be confused, both have literally nothing to do with taking off. Which makes it doubly clear as day.
This is where talking too fast pretending to be professional can get you into a state of confusion. Slow down with the hot rod communications! Having a brain fart in an aircraft can be very troublesome for a lot of folks!
... Literally everything is at the pilot's discretion when it comes to safety concerns. There's phraseology in the .65 that is "cleared for takeoff or hold short," if you want confusing. ATC used a LESS confusing phrase to let the pilot know he can take his time if he wanted. No twisting this one, pilot blew it, period.
Again, for the clowns that are pretending to be pilots on RUclips. In my 15 years of professional flying, I have never ever heard line up and wait at your discretion. It’s non standard phraseology, and there is simply no such thing as line up at your discretion. Fucking clowns.
!["CANCEL TAKEOFF CLEARANCE!"; Kennedy Controllers Prevent Collision on Runway [ATC audio]](/img/1.gif)
Man y'all are either VERY dense, or not pilots. "Your discretion, line up and wait for wake turbulence" is pretty easy to understand. "Line up and wait" means LINE UP on the runway and WAIT FOR TAKEOFF CLEARENCE. "At your discretion" Is due to the wake turbulence... If he feels that it is unsafe to line up and wait due to the W/T... then that is HIS DISCRETION to keep holding short. If you do not hear "CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF" then you DO NOT TAKEOFF. Come on guys. This is NOT ATC's fault
Even if you think this is non-standard phraseology, you *ask* , or you read it back as "cleared for takeoff at my discretion" so you get bonked *before* you make the mistake. That's what readbacks are for, if you think you're clear, you read back that you're clear.
Yeah, he didn't even read back cleared for takeoff. It seems he had a case of "get-there-itis" and decided to clear himself which is inexcusable. It would have taken a few seconds to ask, "Confirm clear for takeoff Runway 27 Left, N69PK?" Instead we're all here to witness his ignominy.
yes it is
he said cleared for takeoff at your discretion. learn to read
@@Digitalgems9000Sorry, ATC did NOT say "cleared for takeoff at your discretion"
I’ve dealt with many different controllers who weren’t exactly clear however Ive never failed to hear them say cleared for takeoff or cleared to land. Without those 3 words you don’t do it .. end of
This happened forever ago. I was confused that this happened again before I realized it's months old.
And obviously there's no "takeoff at your discretion"
"Wait at your discretion" ? An instruction riddled with ambiguity.
I'm not trying to stir the pot here? But I've never heard anyone day "line up and wait at you're descetion". I could see how that could be confusing. What did the pilot read back?
Maybe the controller thought he might still need to do a run-up and was not ready for departure?
I just listened to it again. "At your discretion, line up and wait," the pilot did read it back like that also. So it is a pilot error.
@@zaphodbeeblebrox2911 that's a good point.
@@zaphodbeeblebrox2911exactly, those were my thoughts too. The controller knows that pilots more often than not hold short of the runway for a while for pre-takeoff tasks like engine run-up, takeoff brief, etc.
@@zaphodbeeblebrox2911 For an SR22? The pre-takeoff checks for most light piston prop planes takes about 10 seconds and is just verifications (radios, flaps, doors, throttle) and then MIST when cleared on. He should've also completed already in the designated GA runup area or the ramp because a controller and everyone else is going to be pissed if you are doing your runup at the hold short line for the active.
Unless you hear the word "takeoff" you don't have a takeoff clearance. It's the only time you should ever hear it. Otherwise it's "Departure". There is no at your discretion. Glad nobody got hurt, no attitudes were on display, hopefully it will be a professional phone call, a learning experience, a NASA ASRS report, and call it a day.
Regardless of what had been said previously, if you haven’t heard “cleared for take off” then you’re not cleared for take off.
except you're missing the entire point. the pilot said he's clear for takeoff and the ATC responded by your discretion. means the same thing.
@@Digitalgems9000the pilot didn’t read back a takeoff clearance.
@@raffialexanian that's because the atc literally told him at your discretion. good lord did you even watch the video?
@@raffialexanian the atc told him at his discretion. lol
@@girngrodriguez5366 The guy who commented said “the pilot said he is clear for takeoff”, like he read back a takeoff clearance without being issued one. I said that is not even true, he didn’t read back a takeoff clearance, get it or you’re still drinking?
As a pilot i see no fault with the ATC, line up and wait comand was given, no take off clearance. The "at your descression was refering to the wake turbulence from the American aircraft.
Tower was telling the pilot to line up and wait for takeoff but gave the wake turbulence hold to the pilot allowing yhe pilot to wait 2 minutes before lineing up if hed prefer.
Atc did a great job.
no it wasn't. your discretion was referred to taking off. the pilot literally said cleared for takeoff and the ATC responded your discretion.
@@Digitalgems9000 You are wrong here.
@@Digitalgems9000 no it didn’t lol. Just like exit at your discretion means exit your discretion. Taxi your discretion means taxi your discretion. I got “altitude your discretion” and “base turn your discretion yesterday.” Guess what those meant. Hint, neither referred to taking off.
@@Ndub1036 wrong. the atc finished his sentence for him. "your discretion". atc is at fault 100% here.
@@danzydan2479 nope. the atc confused the pilot. he tried to finish his sentence for him regarding the takeoff clearance. you don't do that.
I feel sorry for the pilot. Trying to take off in a Cirrus at Philly International cant be easy. He was probably fully task saturated with trying to follow taxi instructions. Some of the initial calls suggested that he was having some trouble figuring out the taxi routes to the runway.
I agree with the other commenters. In listening to the audio, the controller did not give authorization to take off but did he did say, "at your discretion, line up and wait". I am not familiar with that term. I could speculate that the controller was suggesting the aircraft to line up and wait when he felt it was safe to do so after the AA departure but that is not a standard term. I could see myself making a similar mistake if given those instructions. Good opportunity for everyone to learn.
If you’re not familiar with the term, don’t weigh in on the discussion. It is a standard aviation term that any good pilot knows.
Then you must be an exceptional pilot. I have never been given a line up and wait at my discretion directive.
As for my comment, I have the same right as everyone else to share my thoughts and opinions.
@@HobbitHobbitwhy would you make that mistake? There is only one way for you to legally take off and that is if you hear the words: cleared for take off. There are no other words that allow you to take off.
“At your discretion” is very common in aviation. Now to “line up and wait at your discretion” might be less common, but it will be used occasionally. I’ve heard it a few times myself.
There was nothing to be confused about here.
@@HobbitHobbit you must not be an exceptional pilot, and yes, you are entitled to have all the wrong information in your head that you want. But sharing that wrong info with the world is Ill-advised.
@@RetreadPhoto they have no *wrong* information at all, they just said they were unfamiliar with the term. You should chill and not yell at people if you genuinely want other readers to take the information presumably coming from you, and leave the disinformation potentially coming from others. The way you're doing it you're just going to have people think you're in the wrong.
I think you said takeoff at my discretion 😁
I am not a pilot, yet very much intrigued watching these videos.
Is getting a phone number, likened to being called to the CO’s office?
I think that’s a good way of putting it, although pilots don’t report to ATC. Pilot deviation from commands issued is a serious “you might be in trouble” conversation.
It’s done off radio and the tapes are played back to confirm what happened. If the pilot did deviate from instructions then they are subject to disciplinary action and it can be very serious. Lots of forms to fill out and sometimes remedial training. You can also be grounded from flying if it’s serious enough.
@@craniumrex4614 ~ Thank you for taking the time to enlighten me! 👊🏽 I appreciate it.
@@weeyee60 you’re welcome!
@@craniumrex4614it doesn’t have to be a bad thing. What happens is, the controller just wants your side of the story. Most of the time, if the controller feels that the pilot learned his lesson and won’t repeat this, they will just let it go. Otherwise they will start the proper report for the FAA.
I’ve been asked to call once. I was flying a small jet as an air ambulance. The controller did not give me the right of way. They asked me to call and the facility manager apologized to me and said they would have a debrief with the controller about this.
@@rtbrtb_dutchy4183 hey thanks for the clarification.
The world could learn so much from this type of engagement - it’s not about punishment so much as clarifying and/or making people better and more safe. Thanks for taking the time to expand on that. Love learning new things!
There is nothing more scary than sharing airspace with a Cirrus or a Diamond pilot.
A takeoff clearance includes the current wind direction and velocity, which was not present in this LUAW instruction, so not cleared for takeoff. And of course, when in doubt, query ATC first.
In 30 years of flying, I've never heard "line up and wait at your discretion". That was an odd one.
Agreed. But if confused or unsure at ALL, the pilot needs to CHECK first.
It makes sense, I think the controller’s intent was fairly obvious. “You’re good to line up now if you want but considering an airliner just departed you can also wait a bit for it to clear out.”
I think the controller was trying to be helpful but made a nonstandard directive out of standard phraseology which is ripe for miscommunication. Regardless, the pilot should have had the SA to say “I’m departing after a bigger plane just left, I should wait anyway to let the wake turbulence die off a bit and that makes sense with the clearance he gave me”.
Personally I think the controller should have just waited the necessary amount for departure separation and then given the line up and wait or the takeoff clearance instead of basically telling the pilot “you can enter if you want or you can wait that’s fine too”. It’s a weird thing in the states that it feels like many towers either try to max perform separation intervals to the point a go around or emergency could become more dangerous because they really counted on the spacing working out. As time goes on I really dislike the way we clear multiple aircraft for landing and this feels in that same vein although again ultimately the POC is the final authority on how the plane is operated and therefore should have ultimate SA. The controller in my opinion ought to have just let the one minute or whatever it is pass by in awkward silence and assumed the pilot would be competent enough to understand why, and even if they weren’t there wouldn’t be any confusion even if there was a bit of silence on the radios. “Cleared for takeoff” or “cleared to land” should genuinely mean the entire runway is yours to take for however much time and distance you need it for, not “following the guy landing in front of you” or “after these vortices die down”.
what consequences will this have for the pilot?
Not quite standard language... still, if you don't hear "cleared for takeoff" you're not, uh, cleared for takeoff.
What does line up and wait your discretion supposed to mean?
I think he meant your discretion, when the plane takes off ahead of you line up and wait. I could see why this would be confusing
Perhaps “your discretion” was intended to equate to “you can do it immediately or when ready but no rush”… similar context to “no delay” when used to express urgency of taking off to prevent someone at close interval on final from having to initiate a go-around. Idk. Can’t say I’ve heard it used in this context either.
it means line up and wait when you want to.
I’ve never heard this before either, but I’m pretty sure it just means: hold short of the runway and do whatever pre-takeoff tasks you need to do, then line up wait when ready. Similar to what @cajinguy218 thought as well.
@@11290slkI thought so too but wake turbulence wouldn’t affect an aircraft until he was on takeoff roll. And he was given line up and wait. So to me that would have been more appropriate with “your discretion, cleared for takeoff” and even in that case, “cleared for takeoff” would have been the most appropriate.
After being issued a Brasher, is the pilot affirmatively obligated to call the phone number given ASAP (like, after landing), or can the pilot wait a day or two in order to speak with qualified counsel first?
Can pilot's qualified counsel make the call instead?
What generally transpires during these phone calls?
I don't want to ever find out, but this information would be good to know in advance if that day ever comes.
There’s nothing that requires you to actually call the number, but ignoring it will not make it go away. The best course of action is to call the number, provide your name and certificate number, and do not admit to anything. If you are unclear as to what the deviation is for, they will tell you. The call will be recorded and anything you say will be used against you.
@@bubbaoriley7864 Well in that case, I will say the following:
Out here in the fields
I fight for my meals
I get my back into my living
I don't need to fight
To prove I'm right
I don't need to be forgiven
No, you don’t have to do anything. You don’t even have to copy the number down - respond “unable.”
@@Ndub1036 you should respond unable, when the counselor asks you during your compass test if you'd like to take English classes lol
@@JustSayN2O And why wouldn't you?
Not sure why, the pilot repeated line up and wait, but his brain was on a different channel I guess
Heez...in trubbl??
@ATCAUDIO, through the energised debate in the Comments section about whose fault this was, we found an error in your video. At 1:12 you’ve labelled the jet readback as N69PK in the caption. You’ve got it in red to align with the colour you’ve assigned to the AA Jet 1936 but just put the wrong text in. This txt should read AA1936 not N69PK.
They're gonna give you a phone number
What is the process for a possible pilot deviation? 🙂 TIA
You call the number you got and explain what happened from your perspective. if it happens due to an error and no intention, there will likely be no more than a warning against you. you can also file a report call ASAP with the FAA to cover yourself.
@@amitaiitzkovitch8867 minor correction. The report is called ASRS and it’s with NASA. It also only covers you against enforcement actions in certain circumstances, but does not cover the black mark against your certificate that follows you around forever.
@@amitaiitzkovitch8867the form is submitted regardless of your explanation. You should never provide an explanation to them.
@@bubbaoriley7864no
I know it doesn't mean "cleared for take off" but what on earth does "your discretion . . . line up and wait" mean ??
Both parties were at fault.
It means, your discretion, line up and wait. Big jet had just left. Do you want to pull out behind it or give it a few seconds?
@@rona4960 Line Up and Wait is only used at busy airports to increase traffic flow during high density operations. While the meaning of what the controller said can be understood, it’s still an utterly stupid thing to give someone discretion to line up and wait as it serves zero useful purpose. That’s why you will never hear those two things used together. The controller sounds as if he was not quite ready for prime time.
Line up and when when you’re comfortable that the wake isn’t going to flip you over. Why is this so confusing?
@@bubbaoriley7864you seem utterly unfamiliar with the concept of wake turbulence
@@Ndub1036 For those that do understand how it works it only starts when an aircraft is airborne and for a transport category jet that’s at least half a mile away from the other aircraft who would be on the ground and not moving. Feel free to explain how that would be in any way a safety concern. Should be entertaining.
Say it with me now: "Any idiot can be a pilot."
When encountering a “pilot” who owns a Cirrus, there is an extremely high probability their net worth and ego FAR exceeds their piloting ability.
Did junior high just get out? How could there possibly be a dozen people immediately jump on this and try to defend the pilot who doesn’t know what he’s doing (yet)?
Controller has to take a little bit of responsibility for this one for not using standardized language.
no
no...ATC was fine...PK repeated line up an wait and still went....he went full retard
Yes
your discretion, runway 27, line up and wait. Standardized or not, it's clear. And if you'll remember at the beginning, the pilot had already screwed up on taxi instructions. He didn't have his head on straight.
man you guys are so stupid
"at your discretion" should never be given before a takeoff clearance. Either you give him the instructions to line up and wait or you wait before you take the runway for a take off clearance. Adds way to much confusion, especially right before take off. That controller was wrong for doing that. The pilot is still at fault though.
It wasn’t a takeoff clearance tho lol
that's literally what discretion means. you guys need to learn English for real.
@@Ndub1036 take the L buddy.
@@girngrodriguez5366 okay troll
@@Ndub1036 only troll is you
I’ve never been issued that instruction with over 2k hours. Pilot should have clarified, but I understand the confusion.
You prob don’t fly a small plane out of a busy Charlie often then. I hear it often and politely wait two minutes until my tiny plane isn’t going to be turned over.
ATC are partially responsible for the confusion. "Takeoff at discretion" is a real instruction at some airports (even fully controlled ones) when the controller can't be sure it is safe to clear you (e.g. if you're a helicopter landing in an area that isn't a runway). But there's no reason to instruct "line up at discretion" because wake turbulence can have no effect on an aircraft lined up at the runway threshold (the turbulence won't even start until the rotation point of the previous aircraft). So using the word discretion is dangerous as it is often used in the context of takeoff or landing. There are some words you shouldn't use unless you mean them and discretion is one of them. It suggests the pilot can do what they want.
This is incorrect. The “take off at your discretion” does not come as a message on its own. It will be preceded with the controller saying: “we are unable to provide you with a take off clearance” or something similar.
This was about Jet blast. Jet blast from a large jet is very dangerous to a small aircraft. But the reason the controller says “wake turbulence” is because he knows he can’t give the small airplane a take off clearance for a few minutes, due to wake turbulence. So, since the small airplane has to wait, probably 3 minutes, it’s his discretion when he wants to line up.
The controller needs better language and owns a part in this. He made it sound like he was giving the decision to the pilot.
exactly
No he didn’t. He couldn’t be more clear. There was no: cleared for take off. Those are the ONLY words that allows for a take off.
@@Digitalgems9000you have been making a lot of wrong comments.
I’ve heard the term “at your discretion” a bunch of times although the point is moot. Whether it’s standard or not it sounds nothing like “cleared” or “for” or “takeoff” which are the ONLY WORDS EVER USED for a pilot to, you know, take off. 🙄
Pilot read back same way and if he didn’t know what ATC meant he might have asked. Feeling like you might look silly is a small price to pay for not dying or killing others
Very unprofessional
what if the pilot never calls back? 🤫
The FAA will track down the pilot through the registration and it won’t do the pilot any favors for making them go through the effort.
@@bubbaoriley7864 untrue. It’s handled the same by the FSDO whether they call back or not. Only a little more work for us ASI’s, but doesn’t affect the investigation.
Doesn’t change anything. Tiny bit more work for us.
@@Ndub1036 You do understand there’s more steps to the process, right? The ATC LOB doesn’t refer every single case to FSDO and some of them most certainly will not be. Not calling them pretty much guarantees it will be. You aren’t the only one who has inside knowledge of the FAA.
@@bubbaoriley7864 oh darn a referral. I’d rather not put something on record for the investigation and follow the advice of every single aviation lawyer. You guys think you’re god with those meaningless referrals.
I think ATC is mostly to blame. Choose your words carefully.
Nope. LUAW is line up and WAIT, period.
Tower did choose his words carefully. At no time was “cleared for takeoff“ issued. Also, the pilot actually read back line up and wait.
@@yeppers7225 someone didn't watch the video. the atc literally says at your discretion regarding taking off, lol
@@girngrodriguez5366 You didn’t “listen” to the audio. He said “at your discretion line up and wait for wake turbulence”, timestamp 1:19. Again, cleared for takeoff is a takeoff clearance not line up and wait. The pilot even read back line up and wait, timestamp 1:24. I guess you didn’t hear that part either. Go ahead and time stamp the “cleared for takeoff” by the tower”. I’ll wait.
@@girngrodriguez5366you again. It’s astonishing how confident you are while being so wrong.
This is super old
With a full factory warranty, using the dealer was the wise decision. I also have a strap wrench that may have worked. It's a different design than the plastic one you attempted to use.
Que?
What the hell is line up your discretion. This is ATC fault for sending mixed messages.
@JH-in5oq It's non-standard and can be interpreted multiple ways.
Nope. Never said cleared. Never said takeoff. Taxi and take the active runway to line up and wait “at your discretion (not rushed or immediately)… for wake turbulence.” Clear as day.
@@RetreadPhoto If it was clear as day there would be no discussion on it.
@@ra2186 You're the one making reference to what's "standard". It's standard that unless you hear the words "cleared for takeoff", you are not cleared for takeoff. Those are the only words that can be used to issue a takeoff clearance. *That* is the standard. It's literally in the regs. So, yes, it is as clear as day. But in any case, both "at your discretion" and "line up and wait" *are* standard terms, and the controller used them both with their ordinary meanings - which, since you seem to be confused, both have literally nothing to do with taking off. Which makes it doubly clear as day.
How else should he clear the pilot at his discretion to line his tiny plane up in possible wake turbulence?
Yep… controller did not use standard ATC phraseology 🇺🇸. Back to OKC for remedial training 😂
So wierd how people say thank you when they're being punished. Like thanking the cop when he gives you a ticket. 🤔
This is where talking too fast pretending to be professional can get you into a state of confusion. Slow down with the hot rod communications! Having a brain fart in an aircraft can be very troublesome for a lot of folks!
The fuck ? There is no such thing as line up and wait at your discretion. Yes pilot fucked up. But ATC set him up.
... Literally everything is at the pilot's discretion when it comes to safety concerns. There's phraseology in the .65 that is "cleared for takeoff or hold short," if you want confusing. ATC used a LESS confusing phrase to let the pilot know he can take his time if he wanted. No twisting this one, pilot blew it, period.
Sure there is. Many things are given at your discretion. Just yesterday I was given altitude, airspeed and a base turn at my discretion.
exactly. well said
@@Ndub1036 "cleared to take off", "at your discretion". please tell me you know what that means
Again, for the clowns that are pretending to be pilots on RUclips. In my 15 years of professional flying, I have never ever heard line up and wait at your discretion. It’s non standard phraseology, and there is simply no such thing as line up at your discretion. Fucking clowns.