Joshua Leifer and Shaindy Ort: How Progressive Activists Rediscovered Traditional Jewish Life

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  • Опубликовано: 21 ноя 2024

Комментарии • 84

  • @jillm7061
    @jillm7061 Месяц назад +1

    This might be the most underrated interview on the Internet right now.
    Great job!
    This is definitely my new favorite RUclips channel

  • @samuelgoldring9691
    @samuelgoldring9691 2 месяца назад +22

    Does Shaindy have any sympathy for the existential dilemma that tears at the Israeli heart . Israelis would like to treat all peoples including Arabs fairly . On the other hand how do you strengthen the hands of Arabs who are imbued with murderous religious hatred of Jews.
    Separately the Iraqi Kurds, in 2014 ,expelled thousands of Arabs from Kurdish villages.
    The Arabs had sided with Arab ISIS against the Kurds .
    The Kurds felt betrayed by their Arab neighbors and told them we fear having you live among us as a fifth column.
    Incredibly Israel has not expelled the Arabs who were hoping that the invading Arab armies would destroy Israel
    in the six day war.
    Loving the stranger is about the type of stranger who wants to be part of your society -
    the type of strangers that Jews were -who wanted to be part of Germany and the other countries that hosted Jews. If a stranger is full of murderous hatred and is dedicated to your destruction
    then you must defend yourself against such a stranger and being fair to such a person seems ludicrous and dangerous to yourself and to the people you are obligated to protect.

    • @lorileifer613
      @lorileifer613 2 месяца назад

      This couple have one big problem: they are hard core elitists and it is blinding them.

    • @dakruise1
      @dakruise1 Месяц назад +1

      She doesn't. She's an American Tel Avivian socialite.

  • @arongrossman6494
    @arongrossman6494 2 месяца назад +8

    Thank you so much for doing this interview!
    I'm the Lakewooder you mentioned might be listening, because I love engaging with and understanding different Jewish experiences and the opinions which are formed by those experiences.
    It's really inciteful learning about how different jews find meaning in their lives! Even though I disagree with most of the sentiments expressed here (at a basic level, I couldn't logically sync some of their views with basic on-the-ground realities that aren't in fact filled with dancing unicorns) it was still insightful. They're delightful people. I felt that the interviewees were authentically introspective in carving out a space for themselves. I loved the passion!
    There's way too much here for a youtube comment to begin to unravel the individual ideas expressed, so I'll just stick to what I understood was an overarching theme toward the end of the episode regarding their observance credo: Finding meaning within a system of traditional Jewish observance without concerning oneself with whether or not there's any higher truth to it.
    I think I fully understand how living with a secular atheistic mindset while searching for meaning within the framework of observance and community would birth this doctrine-based system, regardless how much intellectual gymnastics must be performed to obscure its illogicality. What I struggle with, however, is to understand Dovid's excitement about this philosophy serving as a blueprint toward non-orthodox Jewish practice. I just don't see how this version of dry practice would appeal to a broad audience of conservative, reform, or unaffiliated jews. (I do, however, see the appeal to those who have left orthodoxy well into adulthood but are seeking an attachment to the rituals of their upbringing.)
    I think it is fair to say that most people who are ripe for a renewal in religious identity and observance are seeking meaning in their daily lives and an end to an obsession with the egocentric self. They want to attach themselves spiritually to something beyond the constraints of their physical perception of reality.
    In fact, even in the orthodox world, across the full spectrum of frum communities, there seems to be a new rush toward renewed spirituality. People are tired of ritual-based religious practice that's uninspired and by rote, and are yearning to attach meaning to their religious practice. Finally freed from the survival mode that was synonymous with Jewish life until recently, so many are yearning for an authentic connection and relationship with G-d, up to the extent humanity is capable of perceiving. (See, for example, the recent 18Forty episode with Rabbi YY Jacobson.) Interest in chassidus, and pnimius hatorah has exploded recently, even in Lakewood.
    Many who have returned to orthodoxy after a hiatus that involved a full rejection of their upbringing describe a similar process in their life's journey and return: Being sensitive and spiritual by nature, they felt the need to completely abandon what they perceived as a ritualistic-based religion which felt heavy, constricting and mostly inauthentic. Years later, somewhere along their spiritual seeking, they rediscover a 'new' Judaism they never knew which places intention and connection ahead of ritual. They describe a slow process which begins with a strong raw, emotional, and spiritual relationship with G-d, and only later would they slowly reintegrate mitzvah observance, serving as a vibrant medium to their connection with G-d.
    In other words, they describe a permanent abandonment of the by-rote, ritualized observance of their youth, followed by a period of religious awakening, followed in turn by a gradual reintroduction to observance of those same rituals, but on an entirely different level of consciousness.
    Such a creed of dry ritual for the ritual's own sake as discussed in this episode, that doesn't utilize the performance of these acts as a medium for authentic connection to G-d, could not possibly appeal to this demographic.
    ([1:16] Jeans are, in fact, "true" in the sense that any noun can be true -- they exist. If you weren't convinced of its "truth" you probably wouldn't engage in the act of donning them. In reality, they are "true" whether or not they fit, to stick with the analogy, v'hameivin yavin...
    Living an halachic life without curiosity vis-a-vis its truth, its why, or its meaning is sort of like going through the hand motions of donning a pair of jeans without concerning oneself with whether or not the pair actually exists. [I'm aware that I shifted the analogy of halachic practice from the physical jeans to the act of donning them, because an inanimate object cannot logically serve as an analogy to a willed act.] Arbitrarily attaching ones own reason and meaning to an act is anyone's prerogative, but that brings us right back to a bagels and lox level of sophistication. This version of observance is more closely aligned with the postmodern obsession with the all-important self, placing ego and how it will feel at the center of all motivation, which an earlier part of the conversation touched upon.)
    Thanks for reading if you came this far! It's almost as long as a Reader's Write letter in the Yated.
    A fellow 3:00 AM'er

    • @mosytube
      @mosytube 2 месяца назад

      Well done

    • @arongrossman6494
      @arongrossman6494 2 месяца назад

      @@mosytube Thanks!

    • @yperkin1016
      @yperkin1016 2 месяца назад

      Oy! This sent a chill ...I feel like I'm surrounded by an atmosphere of Pre-WW2 German Jewish community atmospheres....perhaps my friend was right , Years ago ; in telling me to move to Mars... soonerthan later ?

    • @arongrossman6494
      @arongrossman6494 2 месяца назад

      @@yperkin1016 I'm very interested in learning about what it was about my comment that triggered such a response for you. Please enlighten me.

  • @shirakoenigsberg9419
    @shirakoenigsberg9419 2 месяца назад +4

    This was a really beautiful conversation about nuance and dialectics...and the journey of finding our places in the Jewish community while holding contradictions and staying authentic to Torah values that actually transcend politics. Shaindy and Josh are as real as they come. Thank you both for sharing your authenticity and passion for truth. A lot to reflect on

  • @laurierappeport
    @laurierappeport 2 месяца назад +23

    I’m curious as to how “anti-occupation” people, especially Jews, rationalize their own places of residence. I mean, after all, they are living on lands that were taken from the native people who lived there for thousands of years. Whereas Jews living in Judea and Samaria are living on their indigenous lands.

    • @outandabout4812
      @outandabout4812 2 месяца назад +3

      Jewish communities existed in this land over 2000 years so not sure where you get other people land.

    • @samuelgoldring9691
      @samuelgoldring9691 2 месяца назад +4

      Supportive historical information
      In 136AD the Romans add to the Land the name Palestina
      to signal that Judea/ Israel was be taken and incorporated as a province into the Roman empire.
      In this newly named Palestine the Jews and Roman pagans and the small Christian community are the first Palestinians. The Arabs / Muslims become interested in Palestine 500 years later, after Islam is created in the Arab peninsula. Islam motivates the Arabs to conquer all of the peninsula and then the rest of the Middle east ( including Palestine)North Africa , Central Asia and west India .
      Millions of indigenous peoples lost their lands and lives to the Muslim onslaught including the ancient people of Palestine . Of course the Jews were in the Land a 1,000 years before the Romans arrived .
      The Jews called the Land Israel/Judea.
      It may have been a marketing mistake for the Jews to so quickly relinquish the name Palestine for the “ new “ name Israel . By ceding the name Palestine to the Arabs they handed the Arabs the claim of being the indigenous Palestinians and the Jews casted themselves as newcomers. While the reality is that there was always a Jewish community in Palestine.

    • @samuelgoldring9691
      @samuelgoldring9691 2 месяца назад

      Interested in knowing why Shaina has no empathy for
      Israelis who are torn by the dilemma of wanting to treat all people fairly and the reality that the religion of Arabs teaches them that the Jews are to be hated and destroyed.
      In a different context the Iraqi Kurds expelled 1000s of Arabs from Kurdish villages because the Arabs sided with Arab ISIS
      The Kurdish explained to the Arabs you have lived with us for years and now we learned you are a fifth column we are afraid to let you live among us .
      Israel has a fifth column living in the west bank it is incredible that Israel has not expelled them outright . So Israelis are torn by the dread of what Arabs want to do to us yet we want to treat all people fairly .
      If Arabs in the west bank would express love or at least no religious hatred for Jews that would allow Israelis to feel more secure and not feel torn by the prospect that if they treat Arabs fairly they are strengthening the hands of Arabs who would murder them if they could.

    • @stephenfisher3721
      @stephenfisher3721 2 месяца назад +7

      ​@@outandabout4812
      I think she is reversing countries to make a point.
      How do anti-occupation American Jews justify living in the United States on land stolen from Indians (Native Americans).

    • @yperkin1016
      @yperkin1016 2 месяца назад +1

      ​@@stephenfisher3721That's an interesting point.
      Instead of feeling intimidated by the Woke U S Administration, the Indiginous Jewish Nation should invite the Indiginous Indian Nations to come to Israel from the US..!
      Oh ...Wait ...there Is ( already ) an Indigenous Embassy in Jerusalem! Apparently, it's the first of it's kind... anywhere! Wonder ....why?😮😊

  • @neilsharris
    @neilsharris 2 месяца назад +2

    Thank you for making this a video episode!

  • @stephenfisher3721
    @stephenfisher3721 2 месяца назад +7

    I assumed that these leftist Jewish critics of Israel came mostly from Reform backgrounds so it was interesting to hear about Joshua Leifer and Shaindy Ort who came from Conservative and Lakewood Yeshivish backgrounds.
    However, they were shocked when their follow non-Israeli leftists upheld Hamas as beloved, heroic freedom fighters and condemned Jewish Israelis as Nazis committing genocide.

    • @philipk9783
      @philipk9783 2 месяца назад

      Hamas and Netanyahu's government are full of war criminals. If you believe in international law then this is unquestionable.

  • @ShuiHaber
    @ShuiHaber Месяц назад

    This is really beautiful!

  • @samuelgoldring9691
    @samuelgoldring9691 2 месяца назад +3

    לך לך”
    ונברכו בך
    כל משפחות האדמה

    לכו לכם
    ואספתם משפחות האדמה
    וחברתם אשה אל אחותה
    כי משפחותיכם בסופה נספו
    ודמי אחיכם ,כדומן על הארץ,
    , שפוך נשפכו
    Let’s do the joyous work of building ourselves our family and community
    and taking what we learn from
    our endeavors and share it with others who are interested

  • @ernestinalasegunda
    @ernestinalasegunda 2 месяца назад +1

    Thank you. What a fascinating conversation. Josh, curious whose class at PU you read Alistair Macintyre in?

  • @EverVince
    @EverVince Месяц назад

    Hope to listen a similar conversation with Shaul Magid

  • @augjake
    @augjake 2 месяца назад +1

    Very important conversation. I enjoyed it.

    • @myx0mop
      @myx0mop 2 месяца назад

      @@augjake what was so important about it?

    • @augjake
      @augjake 2 месяца назад

      @@myx0mop I think it’s important to discuss political differences, and how people of different backgrounds can find a home in traditional Judaism.

    • @myx0mop
      @myx0mop 2 месяца назад

      @augjake I don't believe that. There are standards and principles, and we're not an all-inclusive club. Plus, this is above and beyond some abstract political differences. People who openly support the enemies and murderers of Jews can find their home elsewhere. Otherwise, they'll be destroying the kehila from within.

  • @yossitaub8546
    @yossitaub8546 2 месяца назад +4

    Let the guests answer the questions

  • @tuvylemberg
    @tuvylemberg 2 месяца назад +11

    The interviewer needs to learn how to let people answer on their own without doing it for them. Great interview though.

    • @charlespaskesz3723
      @charlespaskesz3723 2 месяца назад +2

      it is more of a discussion than an interview.

    • @yossitaub8546
      @yossitaub8546 2 месяца назад +3

      @@tuvylemberg @charles even a discussion shouldn't involve interrupting the other people and finishing what he assumes to be the rest of their sentences.

    • @PDM1967
      @PDM1967 2 месяца назад +3

      He is so difficult to listen to. Insufferable really.

    • @myx0mop
      @myx0mop 2 месяца назад +1

      He should also learn to communicate in a more articulate manner. Saying "like" fourteen times in a three-word sentence also makes it unbearable.

    • @miriampinon165
      @miriampinon165 2 месяца назад +1

      Who is the interviewer. I want more

  • @---tx9xx
    @---tx9xx 2 месяца назад

    Who is the interviewer /moderator

  • @GeoffSh4rt
    @GeoffSh4rt 2 месяца назад +4

    Can anyone understand a word she says? I've never known anyone speak so quickly.

    • @joshcoder5597
      @joshcoder5597 Месяц назад

      I listen on 1.2 and it sounds slow to me.

    • @YogaladyToronto
      @YogaladyToronto Месяц назад +1

      I had to slow down the video speed to understand her.

  • @sh25098
    @sh25098 2 месяца назад +4

    Joshua just made aliya and moved to israel

  • @stephenfisher3721
    @stephenfisher3721 2 месяца назад +2

    Why does Joshua Leifer dismiss Israel as the telos?
    Wikipedia states that Telos (Ancient Greek: τέλος, lit. 'end, purpose, goal') is a term used by philosopher Aristotle to refer to the final cause of a natural organ or entity, or of human art.
    Many Jews would say that the end stage of Judaism is the Messianic Age.
    In the prayer for the State of Israel it says:
    מְדִינַת יִשְׂרָאֵל,
    רֵאשִׁית צְמִיחַת גְּאֻלָּתֵנוּ.
    The State of Israel is the the initial sprouting of our redemption.

    • @samuelgoldring9691
      @samuelgoldring9691 2 месяца назад

      חיל אל חיל
      There is never a final goal achieved or arrival
      there is always a burden to lighten a problem to solve an insight to understand
      that is what עולם הזה is

    • @samuelgoldring9691
      @samuelgoldring9691 2 месяца назад

      R. Dovid said he is not recruiting for Orthodoxy ( I guess so as not to embarrass but rather to honor what is already good in others )
      Let’s recruit for family ,for community -
      Not only our immediate family and community (horizontal -contemporary) but also our ancient vertical generational family and community. Let’s connect to Jews by learning and doing our enduring linguistic and behavioral life enhancing ways. Let our our desire for communal stability be counter balanced by making room for Jewish improvisation (not only comedic) but religio- civilizational . Some improvisations will fall flat others will be accepted as a new growth on the Jewish branch of the Tree of life or as a new weaving into the fabric of life צרור החיים
      To be human is to stand in awe
      of God’s creation and behave in loyalty to it . Help lighten the burdens of others , search for yourself and others how to feel at home in the lower world .

    • @yperkin1016
      @yperkin1016 Месяц назад +1

      @@samuelgoldring9691
      "Bloody Hell " would be the Retort of some Pirates ....But , here I state unswerving Honor and Respect for Chief Rabbi and Captain Admiral Samuel Palache (o"h) who took his Congregation from Amsterdam and Sailed his Fleet of Ships (under the SixPointed Star "of Morocco and his own Jewish penant against the Spanish ( and Torquamoda 's (y"sh) Spanish Inquisition ) to the succour of their Brothers and Sisters and the confusion of our Enemies . ..and to our other Sephardic Jewish Men and Women of the Brotherhood of the Coast ( A"H)....,[ what would They say to the dastardly two-faced Ameri-Diplomacy?] A prayerful "YO-HO " to Almighty G-d and pins and Cutlasses to Hand!

  • @Anne-mn3rh
    @Anne-mn3rh 2 месяца назад +3

    @34:40 Palestinian live under a different legal regime because they're not Israeli citizens, and they don't want to be. (Note that Israeli Arabs _are_ Israeli citizens, and Israeli law applies to them as it applies to Israeli Jews)

    • @lemon8523
      @lemon8523 Месяц назад

      Let's not pretend that Israelis want them to be Israeli citizens also

    • @Anne-mn3rh
      @Anne-mn3rh Месяц назад

      @@lemon8523 That's irrelevant. It's like saying the British don't want the French to be British citizens - like, okay, the French don't want to be British citizens either, so who cares

  • @---tx9xx
    @---tx9xx 2 месяца назад +1

    Yes you definitely did do that Josh. Be act on your regret

  • @---tx9xx
    @---tx9xx 2 месяца назад +2

    Maybe learn Arabic first maidele

  • @BennyPowers
    @BennyPowers 2 месяца назад +1

    these kids are so close... but so far away. I hope they grow out of their rebellious adolescence quickly enough, otherwise they're just consigning their children to keep fighting this war.

  • @neillipman943
    @neillipman943 2 месяца назад +6

    Talking too fast 😮

    • @YogaladyToronto
      @YogaladyToronto Месяц назад

      Agree! I had to slow down the video speed.

  • @alangottlieb204
    @alangottlieb204 2 месяца назад +1

    And I remember like and I think like and it felt like and you know.

  • @JoeShmo8868
    @JoeShmo8868 2 месяца назад

    1:11:00

  • @myx0mop
    @myx0mop 2 месяца назад

    This guy is deleting comments that are critical. Unsubscribing!!

  • @dakruise1
    @dakruise1 Месяц назад

    Shaindy Palestinians don't want 2 states.

  • @FaradayStanford-y4m
    @FaradayStanford-y4m 2 месяца назад

    Jones Laura White Kenneth Hernandez Anna

  • @myx0mop
    @myx0mop 2 месяца назад +5

    These two are insufferable. Still!!

    • @stephenfisher3721
      @stephenfisher3721 2 месяца назад +2

      Insufferable - I had to look that up.
      What American uses that word?
      Are you British?
      Why do you say they are insufferable still?
      How do you even know them?
      Definition of insufferable:
      having or showing
      unbearable arrogance
      or conceit.

    • @myx0mop
      @myx0mop 2 месяца назад

      @stephenfisher3721 perhaps you should buy a dictionary. Those two woke, arrogant egomaniacs are still talking about the evil Israel ruling over the poor "palestinians" and "massacring" them in Gaza. They did not do the teshuva or had a sincere change of heart. IMO, the reason they did this interview was only to promote the book.

    • @myx0mop
      @myx0mop 2 месяца назад +4

      @stephenfisher3721 1. Buy a dictionary 2. I thought that conversation would feature people who had done the teshuva and became good Jews. Which isn't the case here. 3. I find the woke leftists to be tedious, shallow, boring, and egomaniacal - insufferable.

  • @barbaraschwimmer1338
    @barbaraschwimmer1338 2 месяца назад

    This discussion is supposed to make you a better person?…..