"your performance as a tank will vary depending on your healer. I've noticed this on beta too bc i'm just playing with whoever so its really hard to get consistent results" :jdotb only healer shown in video: what you trying to say dorki🤔
Kinda hate when the tank is grouping up two or three packs where I'm used to just watching them group before I start healing, but now they need the healing while they're still grouping and boom. Healer aggro.
I did a run today as a Blood DK. It was Algethar on Vexamus. The 3 packs on his boss platform. Aggro'd one by running into it and Blood Boiling, threw my DnD on the other group off to the side, and then ran toward the third. By the time they were like "This guy's close, gotta hit him" they got healer aggro because I needed healing between the two packs.
Most healers have a way to deal with this but it's annoying. Fade, RoP, defensive cooldowns, aoe stuns, ursols vortex,typhoon, roots, knocks. Not saying this is good design but it's pretty easy to tell very quickly if you're gonna need to use them. Edit: I do think every single priest should use fade once a pull has begun, the ability puts you at the very bottom of the target list while active in combat, it's not a threat reduction, itb sets your threat importance to zero for its duration, usually enough time for a tank to generate threat
@@Saimeren yes I understand that happens and I will say again that I'd rather it not be necessary but if you are faded before the tank has that aggro, it will still hit him first, fade temporarily makes mobs put you at the very very very very bottom of the threat table and consider every other possible target also in combat with them first. Another lesser known way to handle this for Monk is to chi coocoon before tank starts to aggro and enter combat, the absorb is already on place and will not cause threat until it's gone because that absorb was active before they started. A druid can use barkskin, bearform, typhoon. Back in earlier days of wow the most reliable way to avoid all this was Hunter misdirect to tank, there was no problem pulling this way but it's absolutely slower, and unga bunga DPS cannot contain themselves and will always blow their load on everything and get insta one shot because they think a single cast of an ability will hold aggro against blade storm recklessness avatar odyns fury dragon roar
@@grenadanotthecountry I'm genuinely baffled by this as a healer main. I can only assume that these are casual players (healing low keys where downtime is high and most damage is abrupt and spiky) who are influenced by content creators talking about high end (the only place we're actually seeing 4 dps). It doesn't seem like these players are understanding WHY damage is so spiky, and that nerfing tanks will not fix the problem nor give them constant healing uptime in easy content.
I can only conclude that they are getting their takes from videos, because as someone who PuGs a lot of vault keys I've never once had a group flame me for my dps (or lack thereof), whereas these players feel very pressured to dps and are uncomfortable about it.
if you couldnt mentally handle doing a basic dps rotation before as a healer, something tells me the same types of healers will also be terrible at healing their tanks.
From a healer perspective, I find that they are funneling tanks and healers into interacting with the mobs themselves more. Before, a healer's main worry was damage from infrequent raid wides, single target dots, or the mistakes that other players will make. Now, there is a lot more emphasis on knowing which guy is the spam caster that will 2 shot the priest, which one needs a hard stop or else a massive raid wide will go off, and so on. It has shifted a lot more to a mini raid environment where timers and preassigned defensives, cds, and stops are incredibly valuable in static groups, and not just at the highest end. I never tanked a key, so I can't speak on the survivability aspect, but back in bfa and parts of shadowlands, it felt like a tanks main interaction point was the "geography" of the dungeon. For example, which packs were more free, which one had a tank buster, and which ones had deadly casters. It felt like a tank had more of an ability and agency in curating the difficulty of a dungeon based on the skill of themselves, the dps, and the healer. Now, with every pack having the mechanics of 4-6 equivalent packs of the past, the tank loses a lot of that agency in choosing which packs to combine and when to risk. Like healers, tanks are forced to interact with individual enemies more so than the layout and composition of packs of a dungeon. Also bigger pulls are more fun for everyone, not just the dps.
I feel like it's going to feel extra bad for a while just for the simple fact that healers for a big part of this expansion have barely needed to pay attention to the tank, so now they will have to readjust again and get used to actually keeping stuff up on the tank and throwing spot heals into tanks instead of using their extra gcds on damage only. That said, if there are encounters with both group wide damage + tank damage overlap it's gonna be rough.
Yeah thats another thing to consider. More often than not, people wait on a tank to run pugs as its the role the least players are comfortable playing due to its responsabilities. Their answer? Nerf tanks, and make them less appealing to play by making them weaker at their own job.
Dogshit. Mobs are nuclear with too many abilities. Stops are basically useless now, which means assigning kicks is way more important which is cringe for PUGs. Tuning is also dogshit.
The changes really suck without changing the content we play. There need to be changes to m+ and raid aswell to make the tanking experience better. (Playing tank myself)
As a tank only player, I completely lost the little hype I had worked up for the expansion. I'll have to try for myself to see how bad it is, but just the idea of being much less self sufficient sucks. It's one of the things that made tanking fun in the first place, figuring out how I can approach a specific pull or boss and keep myself alive with smart use of CDs, CC, kiting, etc. As usual, Blizzard just creates new problems before they fix current ones, like the horrible tuning in the new dungeons.
I mean I main a resto druid, a resto shammy, and a mw monk. The only expansion that was face rolling for healers was MoP. I was running a level 67 druid tank last night and it was awful. I felt like a sponge instead of a rock. Now my vulpira warrior is fine for tanking in remix, but he's got an 11 million health pool. They need to delay the expansion and revisit tanks because this is ridiculous. We shouldn't have to be in panic mode 24/7 and we shouldn't have to be spectators.
Stop pissing your pants before you get to see it in the live game. It's going to be fine. And btw, as a Guardian and Resto Druid main, druid tanks and healers are quite good and sturdy. The only reason your druid tank was aweful isn't because of the tank, itself, but because of the scaling. As you approach level 70 your scaling goes all wonky n gets normalized closer to 70 to where when you hit 70 you become normal which puts you at the bottom until you get gear since you're a freshly maxed out toon then, as should be the case. As you hit 60, you're more powerful than you are at 67 and this is, again, due to scaling because they scale the mobs up even up to level 70 in the world around you, the scaling on the characters get normalized the closer to 70 you go. They're wacky high the lower in level you are which is why you 1-2 shot everything at levels 1-20 or so.
healer here. i pug a lot - typically to title range and then ill find a group to finish off with. ive pugged a lot of keys (thousands) since i started playing in BFA. this change is going to seriously impact lower end keys probably more than higher end keys. people who are newer to tanking will struggle significantly more but the one thing ive noticed about a lot of pug healers is that they *arent very good* so this creates a problem if you have a bad tank and a good healer, you still have a high chance of bricking they key if you have a good tank and a bad healer, you still have a high chance of bricking the key. if you have a bad tank and a bad healer, its gg on the first boss...not to mention the new +15 second penalty for a death. healers wont be able to carry as easily now and neither will tanks...but good players/teams will find a way to adapt to this rather quickly vs pugs who will be forever lost not knowing who failed their task. as a healer who has carried and babysat many keys simply because of play safe big io, i think i will certainly benefit from this change as other players will now be able to discern a good healer from a great one, but the community as a whole, *especially* the lower end, in my opinion, will suffer *significantly* more.
I'm mixed feelings on this change because as a healer, I'd like to have more healing pressure and less of the "I'm just seeing how few healing gcds I can use" dungeons. I'm also glad to see a lot of the affixes go (especially afflicted with its lose-lose scenarios that it would impose). But I'd rather that came with smoother healing profiles and different damage patterns. But it looks like they didn't really change the oneshot/twoshot problem - they just made tanks susceptible to it too. I also feel like it'll ultimately benefit me as I'm climbing in pugs. But at the same time, it's not really the kind of gameplay I wanted.
Tanks will just leave keys if they feel the healer is wasting their time, it already happens in dragonflight and tanks can survive by themselves. This change is awful for lower keys because the healers definitely struggle already.
I’ve done thousands of keys per season in all 3 roles as many classes since the start of Legion and always gotten the highest achievements available in all roles on all characters with friend groups and pugs. M+ has consistently gotten worse with every single expansion. The changes in season 4 of dragonflight ruined low end keys. These changes will make high end keys even less fun than they already are. If I play at all, I’m just gonna play delves with my friends and AI companions in my warband.
they havent even done ANY dungeons tuning yet. Imagine freaking out a pizza isn't done before it even goes into the oven. Basically what you're doing, they have until September 9th to balance shit. RELAX.
@@strugl3snugle245 I mean the real problem isn't just the dungeons themselves but Aug just existing. These changes just further make the Aug meta even more important. I don't hate the class at all but some variety of Aug not being meta every season would be nice or at least add another support spec to the game if they want to go the route of 2 dps 1 support.
@@strugl3snugle245 If they haven't done anything the past 2 months on beta why do you suddenly think that will change in the month leading up to launch? If anything they are backing themselves into the wall and will miss the mark as per usual. We are going to get another RLP situation where they are going to nerf an ability by FIFTY PERCENT a month after launch because Blizzard refuses to do any sort of tuning.
Think we're gonna have a rough season 1 to say the least. The variance in damage from dungeon to dungeon is kinda crazy right now as well. As a tank though I definitely feel like my job is to survive, and having less control over that is annoying. Trying to fix the group damage problem by starting with tank defensives instead of dps defensives seems so ass backwards.
I was talking about this why my guild. Its crazy that they nerfed tanks while dps are getting EVEN MORE tanky with hero talents. The change seems so misguided
@@dracotoy I agree wholeheartedly. They have stated that they know that defensive bloat is a problem but don't have time to fix it, so the fact that they are making large changes to tanking a month from launch doesn't sit right with me. As a healer main, I don't like that they're portraying this as a change for my benefit while ignoring that core issue. Instead, they're making risky changes that not only make tanking worse, but will also make healing worse if they don't rebalance endgame content properly. Very frustrating.
@@Mooseplatoon exactly. Plus as basically everyone has mentioned, they havent even changed their core dungeon design. Its still big nukes with a pass/fail state. They took nothing off the healers plates and just made them worry about tanks even more
@@dracotoy Healers should have to worry about healing, that's their job, it's about time for this game to stop playing itself, and to stop being a game of chase the tank.
Specking into self sufficient tank -> healer complain about dps Specking to dps tank -> healer complain that he have to heal you more After the nerf pugs gona complain about both since as you said there few tank busters and scaling is still sucks while some classes still waiting for some buffs. Easiest move for blizzard will be like: "we gona increase dung time"= problem solved
My “issue” with this is that my contribution to the team becomes so much less. I feel more like I am a “healer mechanic” than an independent role. Which seems to be the intention, since every time tanks are really fun to play it appears to be a mistake from Blizzard.
@@slandry4664 Yeah, i experience it's yesterday, that "i will be perfectly fine for 99 % cases" 30 sekund later i die from overwhelming melee dmg and lack healing. XD Its was +5 key. Kitting was only option to make that key in time. [playing as VDH]
I think the worst shit Blizz keeps doing is making wide sweeping negative changes to gameplay then they always follow it up with "But don't worry guys, we will also be tuning the dungeons/content accordingly to ensure it feels better" and then they just fucking don't do it. Like why not make these changes AND adjust the encounters at the same time rather then promising to update shit and then just leaving it so it feels like garbage? Really annoying they keep making these weird empty promises.
Ever since m+ became a thing back in legion they havent been able to launch a new expansion without there being a few dungeons that are way overtuned and quickly becomes the "im not going there" type of dungeons. The one positive thats also a negative is that M+ dosent launch untill 1 month into the expnasion so that gives them a extra month to tune dungeons but even then i dont have much faith in them as their track record when it comes to tuning dungeons is very very poor.
As a long-time healer, I wanted to heal in m+ more and do damage less, but not at the cost of tank survivability (a different pattern of damage dealt to the party would be preferable). During DF I could afford pugging, but in TWW the pressure will be much higher, so I'm returning to the SL decision - putting up a group together
Honestly, they really need to add more knobs than "LINEAR HEALTH" and "LINEAR DAMAGE". For starters, they could start adding curves so that they can tune things in such a way that you're never going into one-shot territory too early. But ideally they'd have far more knobs to turn at higher difficulties. Like why does bolt-style enemies have hit for 90% and then leave it to RNG whether people just explode? Maybe determine that their damage is already high enough, so instead give them haste - more frequent bolts reduce the odds of someone exploding in one GCD. I mean, it's still not ideal, ideal would be having something that prevents the 200% HP damage due to RNG, but baby steps and all that.
Aug, prob bear tank for vers, Spriest for fort, mage for lust and survivability and externals like mass barrier and int buff, probably shaman healer for mastery buff (further boosting aug lmao), 5%dr on earth shield and chainheal spam with backup lust and some of the best utility/kick in the game (not to mention curse dispel and poison cleanse totem which will be big in S1). Carbon copy of the mandatory meta from s4 except druid has moved to tank and Rsham has taken over healing. Pally could also take the healing spot, we'll see how it shakes out. Edit: oh and I can see shadow priest being replaced. Fort and PI are a big deal to lose but I've seen some insane damage from other classes after the changes like frost DK, so I think that third dps spot is a little in the air. But aug+mage is pretty much set in stone
@@FeralKobold frost dk is broken right now that is a terrible take. they will be doing nothing close to that damage next season especially when they lose all haste tier and lego. terrible opinions lmfao
Blizzard clearly want you to pull small. hence the target cap, the immediate recast after stops, the weaker tanks, more mechanics etc etc. All changes lead to pulling smaller and each pull being more relevant. Im not sure that's necessarily a bad thing, it is just different than what we're used to.
I know it sucks as a tank player but tanks were at a point where they'd solo bosses and some big packs in mid-level keys. Something had to be done... at the end this is team content, both for the good and the bad. A deplete sucks but it isn't a life changer.
As a healer main, this sucks. Part of my gripe with requiring healers to help tanks is that our heals don’t do as much for tanks with bigger health pools, so it feels bad and we feel less powerful. I want to see health pools move when I heal them, not inch higher and higher.
As a blood dk main, a spec that a healers vision literally penetrates through like a ghost (and rightly so because I am of course a healer myself) these nerfs are so bad for me personally to get used to. Like being .5 seconds late on a death strike will actually just clothesline you now.
Sometimes wonder if people hear themselves. "It actually matters what other players in your group do now." I mean...good? It is a group-based game lol. This has always mattered to healers especially, sometimes you join a group where nobody kicks and it is impossible, other times the group is so good you may as well be afk. Feels like a lot of tanks (and some dps, frankly) want to be Superman in the Justice League where the rest of the team doesn't really matter. Imo Blizzard never should have encouraged this in the first place.
Wait until the expansion is officially out. Right now it’s all subject to tuning still. (I m seeing a lot of posts from tanks hating the game, when the game hasn’t even come out….)
As an HPal main I'm not overly concerned with the changes as I feel our kit is very strong to manage it, 5% DR beacon and barrier should be able handle a lot of it without having to funnel hard into the tank that often
Pulling big is the most fun part of M+ for me a long time player and my friend who just started playing 2 weeks ago and for a huge amount of other people that play M+ so anything that takes away from that is a bad choice imo.
And its something thats allowed by the tank being confident in his ability to stay alive. And in pugs, you dont know how good your healer is going in... Overall feel like less people will play tank (very bad because they are already the role in highest demand in pugs), and those that will still play tank will have really cold feets towards big pulls until they know how good the healer is... Which will no doubt lead to yells that the tank should go faster.
Got a sub from me, not often to see top 1% players acknowledging let alone understanding the impact that changes will have on the lower end of the community. I heroic raid and do M+ generally just to get the portals and 2500 sets and never really beyond that. If I am being honest I generally enjoy the lower/mid range content more than the mid/upper end stuff, I.E. 5-8 keystones in S4 and these changes are going to be brutal on me and the lower/mid end of M+ players. As you mention the top end will adjust and make it work regardless of "fun" as seen with the Kite meta in SL. For those not in the top end content and communities this is just a flat nerf to fun and a flat nerf to upward mobility. If you're someone who is capable of 3k io, but play entirely solo, you are at the mercy of the LFG meta which can be brutal and generally you have to start mid ranged and work your way up because there isn't an accurate measurement for skill, but there is for gear. So until you get the gear you have to farm out mid ranged keys. These changes make that even more of a slog and I foresee a lot of people just dipping out because of that.
You can't even farm gear as easily anymore which makes alts even more annoying to play since you need way more runs to get the stones to upgrade and there is only one valuable item for people who only play m+ which is in the vault. If you lose on 6 vauls before you start your alt there is no way around getting boosts in mythic raids. The disparity in ilevel is just too big. Will be even worse when you can't find groups because tanks and healers are nowhere to be found after this mess
I hope the "healers should have stuff to heal" mentality Blizz seems to be on somehow works out. Obviously they want to move away from the meta where CC can be chained to prevent damage from ever happening, and healers can dps most of the time. However, I'm worried too much pressure will end up being on the healer for the group's success - which is fine if things are tuned well - but the way things are now it looks kinda stressful. Crossing fingers Blizz gets it right.
I love Blizzards approach. Healer should be responsible to heal and tank use CDs to mitigate damage. Blizzard should just tune numbers and smooth out most damage and we Gucci.
The problem was dps defensive creep so M+ having to do insane damage for anyone to be in danger. So obviously Blizz nerfed tanks. I watched Jaks video on the healer perspective and it was just so wildly off the mark for anyone not playing at the cutting edge. He was having trouble keeping Equinox alive. What actual chance do I have as a random pug, get my portals and chill, tank? People were acting like tanks being self sufficient was this automatic, no skill, passive thing that tanks had. That was the skill expression for tanks. So now that's gone, what do I have left?
agreed, we've preached for the defensive creep problem forever and they target tank defensives instead. the idea that tanks were unkillable was more of a higher end fotm tank or overgeared problem
@@Dorki Its like the play COD or some shit all Day and don´t pay ANY attention towards WOW and M+, its SO CRAZY like I dont unterstand.. I thought they saved M+ with the new Affix System, no more Push-Weeks and so on, but wow boy was I wrong. OFC..
There's the whole cooldown-centric healer design going on right now as well. Healers with CDs up can just bring people from the brink of death to a perfect bill of health in one or two GCDs. The only way to challenge these healers is by forcing them to lose their CDs (by making people die from 90% health so that they are forced to heal them back up faster than no-CD allows). imo healing is the most fun when you barely have any CDs and it's mostly about picking the best tool for the job in the shortest amount of time, so I don't really mind the spiky gameplay, I just hate that the spiky gameplay is accompanied by very strict CD management, which causes healers to have very little skill expression - you either saved the CDs so everyone lives without real danger or you didn't and everyone just dies.
I saw Jak's video and I honestly believe it won't affect tanks who aren't at the cutting edge either. Most pug tanks in under 10s are straight garbage and can barely do their rotation while pulling. They aren't really using their defensives in a thought out, planned matter anyway. At best they're just panic hitting them or they don't even hit them and just die while blaming the healer. Same thing for dps, they have defensives but half the people you come across in sub 10s won't even move out damage zones, let alone use a defensive. So they were already dying stupidly before, they'll just continue that trend. I get this is likely gonna suck for the top tier players. But for a lot of the player base, not that much is changing. My buddy is intent on tanking for season 1 and he's crying all about "amagad s1 kite meta here we go again, this is shit just like shadowlands" and I continually have to keep telling him we run fucking ticky tack keys. None of this will apply to him or our group just like it didn't apply in shadowlands because we never ran high enough keys for it to matter. If you're pugging truly high end keys, you're likely right and it's gonna suck, but then that is already the case now to some extent. If you pug with a random tank you don't know, he just might be absolutely terrible. Again, not saying I agree with these changes they made, but i've seen a ton of people (who run low keys) just crying about it when it really won't affect them.
@@TheLeroy125 Do you know how much fucking people run high keys? Just look at the 0,1% Title Cutoff. There are thousands. Yes, majority is doing low keys where it wont matter, but there are many players doing high keys, most of them pugging.
its gonna be exactly ehat dorki stated, shadowlands s1 all over again, all tanks with popo set(not that there were any in SL) and meta being not the tankiest one but the one that could run and kite the best
I’ve literally been asking Blizz to keep tanks self-sufficient but reduce crazy spikes of damage on the whole group and make it more consistent overall damage. Somehow they increased crazy spikes of damage and nerfed tanks. Screw the players who actually know what would make the game better.
I agree with everything you’re saying / explaining. I really hope they either revert these changes or just outright change them for the better. The more I learned about tww over the past few weeks have really killed my hype for the expansion. Fuck aug btw
Tanks should need healing when pulling big or vs a boss. I think Blizz needs to cut overall damage way down and boost mob HP. Dungeons should be mostly a DPS check. Healers will need to do a some damage if they want to push keys, no way around it. Maybe some exchange with the DPS, so they can stand in fire to give the healer something to do hah.
I’m conflicted on this change, I mainly play healer so I welcome actually mattering again, since it felt I was there to do mechanics DPS did t wanna do. As a tank this is concerning since having a bad healer is a pain
The DPS players I think need a mentality change, along with the changes. I was playing BETA as prot pally doing just fine btw. And I had a dps say to me "Tank, you're dumb" He said that because the healer left, and yet I pulled the boss anyway. We were waiting for a healer, it didn't matter. It's beta as well, there is no rating and it means nothing if you die in it. The DPS need to relies they are easily replaced. They need to start to understand their worth. They are absolutely needed, and really good dps are awesome. But not hard to find is the point. A good tank is. And I feel more than ever now. Treat your tanks with respect.
When you talk about "high keys", what kind of key level is that? Is it something that already becomes noticeable at like +8-10, or more a problem at the 15+ range?
On beta it would mean around 10s/12s because of the current gear available and just based on what I've been watching dorki and everyone test. When it goes live and we get better gear I'd expect that to increase into the 15+ Range but with how wacky tuning is right now and having both fort and tyran and that extra modifier affix on top in 12+, I think keys are going to feel significantly harder than s4 and we'll be seeing top key levels 1-3 levels lower than what we're used to depending on the key.
You speaking out is so important, I hope they listen to you. I feel like I will have such a bad time as tank main in pugs this next expansion if this staiys as it is.
Maybe I am old, but shouldn't healers be healing (their role in group)? However, spike damage to the group and the tank taking "more" damage is not a fun scenario as a healer (or the others in the group). I will (most likely) be tanking in TWW. It will suck for me big time if the healer is not prepared for this change and I end up inspecting the floor of the dungeon.
They hate us pulling multiple packs, they've been in an arms race with us since Legion trying to stop it. Don't know why they're determind to fight players on it. Guess they're still upset streamers were clearing MOS in three pulls.
Preach, complete agree I think the most enjoyable part of m+ is pulling big and having fun. The amount of times I get pms from dps and healers about how they enjoyed how much I pulled when I'm going up the rating ladder is a pretty big number. also it feels horrible to die on a tank being a healer didn't keep you up. It feels much better when you know it was your fault because you control your life bar.
The issue is there is just too much group damage going out that the healer CAN'T dedicate globals to the tank. Also, not every healer is created equally. PEvoker is pretty much reliant on Time Dilation (minute CD) to even keep the tank up outside of its HoTs since their single target healing is turbo swamp since Verdant Embrace is not only also on a fairly long cooldown, but is most of the time a suicide button if you want to heal the tank with it.
Wanted to play prevoker in war within and my goblin shaman. Was very hyped initially and prevoker with the latest tierset with instand living flame felt really good. It was already tough in season 3 to have something for every moment but with tanks being paper now and the reliance on CD or misjudging a situation and accidentally killing yourself on top of the limited range this spec will be trash to play unless super overturned. On the other hand if you already have Aug in the group which sounds like it's going to be a must have then it's gg because of overlapping utility anyways... I just cancelled my sub and see what it will look like in a few months when the game is out of beta. And don't get me started on the gearing changes for people who only push m+
We gonna act like echo reversion for golden hour procs isn’t one of the best spot heals in the game? Are you trolling? Sustained single target healing, sure. But tank healing? Pres is ironically one of the better ones
@amethonys2798 I'm late to the party on this but as a mythic raid pres evoker. Season 3 and before pres spot healing was dogshit. U needed 3 globals to create meaningful spot healing. That's dogshit. TANK healing isn't a problem. Tanks don't die in 3 globals unless ur fucking up bad. U can pump up Tanks as pres just fine. It's spot healing in one global that used to suck. Now that lifespark exists+both hero specs u have more consistent options to spot heal.
I totally agree that it's a false narrative that tanks need no healing in DF. I think it's a result of the DH tank domination and how broken they were. Copious amounts of parry and stops. On my prot pala i cannot survive without a healer. I will oom. Some bosses also have mechanics which debuff the tanks and without a dispel the tank will die.
Yea my wife heals and I tank and we are pretty much at a straight fuck that. Probably won't get the expansion at this point. We were 3k+ RIO till we quit mid S3, and I'm pretty sure anyone that has been in the mid 20 keys would agree that healers do indeed have to heal while getting bitches at of they don't get a chance to dps. This is clearly a change for the bad players that can hardly time a 15 if at all IMO.
Preach ! Some people do suck at tanking and healing. This isn't a new problem ! But it's way harder when you need to play and worry about routes or pulls or threat so on.
Its harder when you need to worry about Routes, pulls and threats..... sooooo you mean playing a tank........ Those are literally the 3 jobs of a tank.
Let me ask you this though, do you think that it sucks right now because your gear sucks? I'm assuming that on beta you're not completely kit out in full M+ gear yet. Could it be that later in the season once you get some better gear and more optimal stats that things will level out a bit? Then going into season 2, you'll already be set up with good stats so it'll feel a lot smoother?
not really unless they do some tuning. Like gear is playing a little bit of a factor but the main issue right now is the damage profile is still way too spikey.
good, tanks needed this change. tanks and healers being the only relevant roles in WoW has been an issue since MoP or Cata. Tanks and healers shouldnt be demigods runing around blessing dps players with their presence. "nobody has fun when the tank is weak and has a high chance of dying." Translation: dps dont care while tanks dont have as much fun because they have to actually pay attention and not do massive chain pulls that only tanks and meter whores seem to enjoy. And healers like the increased role importance as you said and they asked for. get over yourself, tanks needed dropped a few pegs in power. period.
Basically you're saying that bad players are going to have a tough time and the M+ dungeons aren't tuned properly? I'm struggling to see how this is any different than any other expansion release.
I mean... it's not great, but the main problem is that aug is the ONLY spec filling that particular role. Broadening it for others would probably help. I'd suggest enhancement, feral and survival be retooled to aug-like specs since they all share the same issue.
@@niklasberggren4919would take too long and it would lead to even more reliance on having X spec to be successful in high keys. Just delete aug or rework it into a normal dps. It’s awful for the games balance and blizzard is too slow to add more similar specs. We got evoker in what? 6 years? Xd also Fck no don’t rework surv into some dirty support spec. Doing that to already existing dps specs will just ruin those specs for a lot of people. I’d delete my surv instantly if that happened lmao
As a healer and a high level healer, I 100% agree with you. This is a worse direction for the game. The other healers just don't realize it yet. I think there's a world where this can work. But I'm not going to sit here and say optimistically "yeah Blizzard will tune it." Guess what, they won't. The spec and encounter designers will continue not talking to each other, leading to wonky fights favoring certain classes heavily. It will be like every thing else they do and it will be put on their backlog for the next 12-18 months and the game will suffer in the mean time. A lot of tanking specs will lose their personality and gameplay that made them, them. In the pursuit of every Tank feeling like Brewmaster to heal. There will be a lot of confusion and animosity in groups over who is the problem when things go south. And all of this will benefit us in what way? Gameplay that is effectively "cookie clicker" for the healers. I see your hp bar go down, I click button. Wow. Fun. Tank healing isn't the fun stuff to heal. The fun stuff to heal is things like Rasha'nan second phase, Anub'ikkaj, EDNA if I didn't need to watch the tank, Skarmorak, Etc. Not sitting there and spam healing the tank. I'd rather just do my DPS rotation in my downtime. These changes are a big Loss for the game. Right on the back of the big W in terms of the affix changes. Such a shame. And, as an aside - People who think tanks didnt need healing in Dragonflight just didn't push high enough keys. That's like saying a +10 needs to be more difficult. No, you just need to do a higher key level my guy. That's the way the system works. It's intentional. So we don't drop new players into +18's. A +10 is just your average weekly key for vault loot. It's not supposed to be super difficult. I don't expect to need to heal the entire time. In fact, If I have to that's probably a bad sign in terms of dungeon balance.
Mythic dungeons destroyed the 5 man experience for me. Was just another reason I stopped playing. Came back to try the next expansion. The speed running sucks.
Cool, i switched to tanking becz there were none to play with. Inb4 a ton of tanks ditching the roll, not being able to group becz everyone switched off then logging off lol
What are the chances these are season 1 scaling and dungeon tuning pains? Loads of expacs started rough for m+ and within a few weeks were tuned better? I'm legit asking as I was away for 5 weeks and haven’t played any of beta apart from doing 1 random necrotic wake that bugged at second boss.
Personally I like this change since as tank I felt I am way too much one man army, aka do solid damage, survive everything, and able top heal myself, it goes against idea of team dungeon, people there should be reliant on each other and it gives healers more active role then just compensating for players mistakes and offsetting undodgeable abilities. I consistent healing profile like that gives healers target to strive for, which will make healing more satisfying. In my opinion survival of tank should be 50% in hands of healer and 50% in hands of tank. I hope t will not lead to something dumb like kiting meta (I think Blizzard can make it so kiting will not be optimal way like: reduce long range aggro generation, reduce side damage so healer has enough time to heal tank and so on). Maybe it will not work and it devolves into kiting, but I have my hopes.
Once again healers get fucked. I've healed since TBC and this is an awful change with how the current healing profiles are in M+. I'd be totally fine having to heal the tank if the DPS weren't losing 80% of their health while actively dodging all the swirlies, frontals, high damage dots that your spec might not be able to dispell, etc. It's just not a fun environment to play in anymore. DPS be laid back chilling dodging shit and hitting things while healers have high blood pressure and constant anxiety for the whole run trying to keep everyone alive despite no one getting hit by avoidable mechanics.
They should just add a beta only NPC that can give u a buff for 20% dmg taken reduction but also 20% healing recieved reduction. Same for 30%, 40%, 50% ... And let the players figure out what feels good .... healers asked for dmg pattern that are not as spike~y but tanks lose 70-90% of their health in 1 hit; so they basicly achieved the opposite
Kite meta is back for pugs. Tanks are not going to just blindly trust random healers. If they don't have the tools to deal with damage they tank. I kinda hope s1 of tww is terrible and engagement drops off hard as a way to tell blizzard this is not it.
The complaint about relying on your healer, pug healers being a dice roll and the healer dying being detrimental are exactly what it has felt picking pug tanks since the dawn of man. To quote Jb, it would be nice if healers could deplete a key too, not just tanks and dps (which is needed if you want healers to be able to carry a group).
What infuriates me the most about the upcoming change to M+ tanking is that its gonna put even more emphasis on having a DH tank. By experience, the more needy tanks get, the more vdh shines due to its mobility, ridiculous utility and threat management while playing evasive. I dont mind being forced into it to push the top 1% of keys, but if not playing a vdh feels like trolling your group in a weekly +10, thats a rough spot for tanking as a whole.
i'm trying to always be positive. BUT, i'm really unhappy with the Tanks nerf. It's already hard to find fun but now...i feel it deep in my stomach when i play the beta, it's unfun
"In most scenarios its not a problem as long as healers are actually paying attention to the tank." This is 100% accurate. It just isn't what we've had for multiple expansions now, and while ABSOLUTELY DOABLE... it just isn't as much fun, at least for me. Beta being an absolute crapshow around balance, and then this tank nerf without any dungeon changes... with less than a month to launch of the expansion is pure insanity. I'm out, at least for the first and maybe second season. With me come those I play with, as they chose on their own, not to stay either. Bummer. Hopefully Blizz returns to producing FUN and not SLOGs that are coated in nostalgia that literally no one asked for. Healers wanted to get to heal more, and dps less as a valid option; they didn't ask for tanks to be nuked from orbit. Anyway, Dorki, perfect video as always. I'll stick to watching you play, instead of playing myself. :D
Maybe not all tanks, but some (especially blood DK) should be self-sufficient in most situations, and those that arent should have very stable health pools
Looks like they are going back to how it was. You gotta know what your doing and be decent at it. Hopefully this will impact guild value. They have made the game easy for people that couldn't or didn't want to invest time in game. Casual players should still have content but by taking the game completely in that direction has ruined the challenge of it.
Well as a Healer main and Offtank i would say i really miss the days where i actually had to Hard save the tank. Nowadays its more like i throw a couple of hots on the tank just because, its very seldom the tank is actually in danger in DF... The days where i could f.ex TauntMeld a dangerous mob to give the tank some breathingroom is long gone. I almost never done it in entire of DF but i used it ALOT in previous expacs. Specially the big tankbuster mob in 2nd last boss Necrotic Wake wich stacks tankbusters
as a tank, i understand the thought process behind the change made to tanks. but the implementation of it is in the wrong order. they should be looking to rework the dungeons they have made and reduce the amount of mechanics and group wide damage of each packs in the dungeon before making the changes to the tank. but instead, we are left with nerfed, fragile tanks and a selection of untouched dungeons with each packs having more mechanics than a whole raid tier. Healers are going to be to focused on healing dps leaving tanks to die. they have 25 days left before release and 2-3 weeks after that before m+ comes out. tbh i dont think this is enough time for them to make the necessary changes to the dungeons so we are going to be left with another season where DH excels as DH has the best kit to do the kiting necessary.
As somebody who usually played only up to ~22/23 (haven't played since the m+ changes), this seems disheartening. Maybe I should roll aug again, seems to be the more reliable group slot and gameplay is definitely more relaxing.
Pug life will be even worse.. healers will get flamed for every tank death :D which will make them quit healing and tanks will quit tanking cause they can not control their own survival :/ so 98% of m+ players will be mages, sp and augs 🙈 I think the best part about tanking is that you are in full control of your survival. It makes learning tanking way better cause you dont have any execuses for dieing You die -> you messed up
If the tank nerfs didn't really make that much of a difference, and tanks are not that much worse from before, then why would an aug be more mandatory than before, dungeons/encounters need tuning, healers having to focus on you more, and kiting to an extent be the situation we're in. This season just seems like it's not going to be fun to tank and you'd think blizzard would want to encourage people to play healer/tank roles.
I play mDPS only and pug almost all the time. I hated Shadowlands S1 so much I quit the game back then. Nothing sours my experience more than having to run around after mobs or the tank randomly losing aggro and me getting one shot. It really feels like Blizzard saw people having too much fun in Mythic+ and participating more than Raiding, and they can't have that. You will raid or you will die. The nerfs to tanks and heals and the doubling down of packs having 10 abilities you need to track have severely diminished by excitement for the expansion. And don't even get me started on Augmentation.
"Healers are bearing more responsibility to keep the group/dps alive". You'd wanna hope so. Healers basically just DPSed for like 80% of high m+ in dragonflight lol...
im so glad for this change tbh, God tank mentality is a straight up annoyance. Tanks shouldnt be fighting both healers and dps on both meters at the same time. As a dps it was an annoyance, because why the fuck am i playing a dps when i could just play a tank and do nearly the same dps with a billion times more survivability. This from a multi KSH player. Im not pushing 26's but the majority of the playerbase isnt. Bring back the roles. Dps should be doing dps, tanks should be holding aggro and taking damage, and healers should be healing the group, not just the dps. In my experience, healing 20s I almost ignored the tank completely and just dumped into the dps, since the tanks just couldnt die. Hell half the time the tank would be the last one standing during a wipe, which is just wack. Lower the group damage and heighten the tank damage. Dps shouldnt have to sit there and rotate 13 defensives a pull just to not get one shot by uninterruptible splash damage.
I’m main heals and I don’t understand why the healer’s community is celebrating that like is the best thing ever. I think those nerfs are going to affect everyone’s game play. I still think that there is no way TWW is going live like that though lol
I am listening to this and hearing stuff like: "Now you actually need a healer to keep tanks and dps alive", seems to make so much sense. Why would this not be the case? This is an MMO, if you want to be able to do all the roles, play a single player game. A tank should not be a dps, a healer should not be a dps. M+ is so bad for the game, giving all the classes everything, while making them all feel like crap simultaneously.
![OhGeesy x Lefty Gunplay - What It Iz [Official Music Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/L0yzW9t2ixk/mqdefault.jpg)
"your performance as a tank will vary depending on your healer. I've noticed this on beta too bc i'm just playing with whoever so its really hard to get consistent results"
:jdotb only healer shown in video:
what you trying to say dorki🤔
People that call Jdotb old have never seen how fast that man can run to Twitter to complain after dying in M+
LOL
Hahaha.... uhmm.... that's what my grandpa does... takes a shit the wrong way and then runs to the window and flames the whole neighbourhood 😂
Kinda hate when the tank is grouping up two or three packs where I'm used to just watching them group before I start healing, but now they need the healing while they're still grouping and boom. Healer aggro.
I did a run today as a Blood DK. It was Algethar on Vexamus. The 3 packs on his boss platform. Aggro'd one by running into it and Blood Boiling, threw my DnD on the other group off to the side, and then ran toward the third. By the time they were like "This guy's close, gotta hit him" they got healer aggro because I needed healing between the two packs.
Most healers have a way to deal with this but it's annoying. Fade, RoP, defensive cooldowns, aoe stuns, ursols vortex,typhoon, roots, knocks. Not saying this is good design but it's pretty easy to tell very quickly if you're gonna need to use them.
Edit: I do think every single priest should use fade once a pull has begun, the ability puts you at the very bottom of the target list while active in combat, it's not a threat reduction, itb sets your threat importance to zero for its duration, usually enough time for a tank to generate threat
Pre-fade bruh
@@Saimeren yes I understand that happens and I will say again that I'd rather it not be necessary but if you are faded before the tank has that aggro, it will still hit him first, fade temporarily makes mobs put you at the very very very very bottom of the threat table and consider every other possible target also in combat with them first. Another lesser known way to handle this for Monk is to chi coocoon before tank starts to aggro and enter combat, the absorb is already on place and will not cause threat until it's gone because that absorb was active before they started. A druid can use barkskin, bearform, typhoon. Back in earlier days of wow the most reliable way to avoid all this was Hunter misdirect to tank, there was no problem pulling this way but it's absolutely slower, and unga bunga DPS cannot contain themselves and will always blow their load on everything and get insta one shot because they think a single cast of an ability will hold aggro against blade storm recklessness avatar odyns fury dragon roar
This just requires skill to do now haha
Just want to clarify that healers only wanted less spiky profile and not be the 4th DPS. They didn't ask specifically for paper tanks.
Theres a weirdly large portion of healers who are stoked to heal tanks again which is honestly crazy to me
@@grenadanotthecountry
I'm genuinely baffled by this as a healer main. I can only assume that these are casual players (healing low keys where downtime is high and most damage is abrupt and spiky) who are influenced by content creators talking about high end (the only place we're actually seeing 4 dps). It doesn't seem like these players are understanding WHY damage is so spiky, and that nerfing tanks will not fix the problem nor give them constant healing uptime in easy content.
I can only conclude that they are getting their takes from videos, because as someone who PuGs a lot of vault keys I've never once had a group flame me for my dps (or lack thereof), whereas these players feel very pressured to dps and are uncomfortable about it.
if you couldnt mentally handle doing a basic dps rotation before as a healer, something tells me the same types of healers will also be terrible at healing their tanks.
We did not ask for paper tanks
From a healer perspective, I find that they are funneling tanks and healers into interacting with the mobs themselves more. Before, a healer's main worry was damage from infrequent raid wides, single target dots, or the mistakes that other players will make. Now, there is a lot more emphasis on knowing which guy is the spam caster that will 2 shot the priest, which one needs a hard stop or else a massive raid wide will go off, and so on. It has shifted a lot more to a mini raid environment where timers and preassigned defensives, cds, and stops are incredibly valuable in static groups, and not just at the highest end.
I never tanked a key, so I can't speak on the survivability aspect, but back in bfa and parts of shadowlands, it felt like a tanks main interaction point was the "geography" of the dungeon. For example, which packs were more free, which one had a tank buster, and which ones had deadly casters. It felt like a tank had more of an ability and agency in curating the difficulty of a dungeon based on the skill of themselves, the dps, and the healer. Now, with every pack having the mechanics of 4-6 equivalent packs of the past, the tank loses a lot of that agency in choosing which packs to combine and when to risk. Like healers, tanks are forced to interact with individual enemies more so than the layout and composition of packs of a dungeon.
Also bigger pulls are more fun for everyone, not just the dps.
This actually kills me hype so much. S1 of sl with the kiting Meta is truly some of the worst m+ ive ever played.
I feel like it's going to feel extra bad for a while just for the simple fact that healers for a big part of this expansion have barely needed to pay attention to the tank, so now they will have to readjust again and get used to actually keeping stuff up on the tank and throwing spot heals into tanks instead of using their extra gcds on damage only. That said, if there are encounters with both group wide damage + tank damage overlap it's gonna be rough.
"some healers just wont heal you as much" - jdot dies in the background footage kekw
I’m starting to think that there’s a benevolent soul on the blizz dev team trying to cure our game addictions.
It’s working lol quit for season 4 , definitely hesitating to come back
I may quit tanking and just go back to dps and have 20mins queue times😂😂
Yeah thats another thing to consider. More often than not, people wait on a tank to run pugs as its the role the least players are comfortable playing due to its responsabilities. Their answer? Nerf tanks, and make them less appealing to play by making them weaker at their own job.
I rather not comeback , not buying this kiting crap
Loved the line, "tank busters are now a healer mechanic."
I'd like to know what are yall's thoughts on the whole situation as every role!
As healer, delete aug 😏
Dogshit. Mobs are nuclear with too many abilities. Stops are basically useless now, which means assigning kicks is way more important which is cringe for PUGs. Tuning is also dogshit.
As aug, delete healer 😏
The changes really suck without changing the content we play. There need to be changes to m+ and raid aswell to make the tanking experience better. (Playing tank myself)
As a tank only player, I completely lost the little hype I had worked up for the expansion. I'll have to try for myself to see how bad it is, but just the idea of being much less self sufficient sucks. It's one of the things that made tanking fun in the first place, figuring out how I can approach a specific pull or boss and keep myself alive with smart use of CDs, CC, kiting, etc. As usual, Blizzard just creates new problems before they fix current ones, like the horrible tuning in the new dungeons.
I mean I main a resto druid, a resto shammy, and a mw monk. The only expansion that was face rolling for healers was MoP. I was running a level 67 druid tank last night and it was awful. I felt like a sponge instead of a rock. Now my vulpira warrior is fine for tanking in remix, but he's got an 11 million health pool. They need to delay the expansion and revisit tanks because this is ridiculous. We shouldn't have to be in panic mode 24/7 and we shouldn't have to be spectators.
Stop pissing your pants before you get to see it in the live game. It's going to be fine. And btw, as a Guardian and Resto Druid main, druid tanks and healers are quite good and sturdy. The only reason your druid tank was aweful isn't because of the tank, itself, but because of the scaling. As you approach level 70 your scaling goes all wonky n gets normalized closer to 70 to where when you hit 70 you become normal which puts you at the bottom until you get gear since you're a freshly maxed out toon then, as should be the case. As you hit 60, you're more powerful than you are at 67 and this is, again, due to scaling because they scale the mobs up even up to level 70 in the world around you, the scaling on the characters get normalized the closer to 70 you go. They're wacky high the lower in level you are which is why you 1-2 shot everything at levels 1-20 or so.
healer here. i pug a lot - typically to title range and then ill find a group to finish off with. ive pugged a lot of keys (thousands) since i started playing in BFA. this change is going to seriously impact lower end keys probably more than higher end keys. people who are newer to tanking will struggle significantly more but the one thing ive noticed about a lot of pug healers is that they *arent very good* so this creates a problem
if you have a bad tank and a good healer, you still have a high chance of bricking they key
if you have a good tank and a bad healer, you still have a high chance of bricking the key.
if you have a bad tank and a bad healer, its gg on the first boss...not to mention the new +15 second penalty for a death.
healers wont be able to carry as easily now and neither will tanks...but good players/teams will find a way to adapt to this rather quickly vs pugs who will be forever lost not knowing who failed their task. as a healer who has carried and babysat many keys simply because of play safe big io, i think i will certainly benefit from this change as other players will now be able to discern a good healer from a great one, but the community as a whole, *especially* the lower end, in my opinion, will suffer *significantly* more.
I'm mixed feelings on this change because as a healer, I'd like to have more healing pressure and less of the "I'm just seeing how few healing gcds I can use" dungeons. I'm also glad to see a lot of the affixes go (especially afflicted with its lose-lose scenarios that it would impose). But I'd rather that came with smoother healing profiles and different damage patterns.
But it looks like they didn't really change the oneshot/twoshot problem - they just made tanks susceptible to it too. I also feel like it'll ultimately benefit me as I'm climbing in pugs. But at the same time, it's not really the kind of gameplay I wanted.
Tanks will just leave keys if they feel the healer is wasting their time, it already happens in dragonflight and tanks can survive by themselves. This change is awful for lower keys because the healers definitely struggle already.
I’ve done thousands of keys per season in all 3 roles as many classes since the start of Legion and always gotten the highest achievements available in all roles on all characters with friend groups and pugs. M+ has consistently gotten worse with every single expansion. The changes in season 4 of dragonflight ruined low end keys. These changes will make high end keys even less fun than they already are. If I play at all, I’m just gonna play delves with my friends and AI companions in my warband.
I am glad they made Tank/healer changes around Aug and then sealed the deal by again spiky dmg in dungeons. Peak wow dev move👌
they havent even done ANY dungeons tuning yet. Imagine freaking out a pizza isn't done before it even goes into the oven. Basically what you're doing, they have until September 9th to balance shit. RELAX.
@@strugl3snugle245 I mean the real problem isn't just the dungeons themselves but Aug just existing. These changes just further make the Aug meta even more important. I don't hate the class at all but some variety of Aug not being meta every season would be nice or at least add another support spec to the game if they want to go the route of 2 dps 1 support.
@@strugl3snugle245 If they haven't done anything the past 2 months on beta why do you suddenly think that will change in the month leading up to launch? If anything they are backing themselves into the wall and will miss the mark as per usual. We are going to get another RLP situation where they are going to nerf an ability by FIFTY PERCENT a month after launch because Blizzard refuses to do any sort of tuning.
@@amethonys2798 because if they do not make changes, they game will be cooked and they will be homeless.
Think we're gonna have a rough season 1 to say the least. The variance in damage from dungeon to dungeon is kinda crazy right now as well.
As a tank though I definitely feel like my job is to survive, and having less control over that is annoying. Trying to fix the group damage problem by starting with tank defensives instead of dps defensives seems so ass backwards.
I was talking about this why my guild. Its crazy that they nerfed tanks while dps are getting EVEN MORE tanky with hero talents. The change seems so misguided
@@dracotoy
I agree wholeheartedly. They have stated that they know that defensive bloat is a problem but don't have time to fix it, so the fact that they are making large changes to tanking a month from launch doesn't sit right with me. As a healer main, I don't like that they're portraying this as a change for my benefit while ignoring that core issue. Instead, they're making risky changes that not only make tanking worse, but will also make healing worse if they don't rebalance endgame content properly. Very frustrating.
@@Mooseplatoon exactly. Plus as basically everyone has mentioned, they havent even changed their core dungeon design. Its still big nukes with a pass/fail state. They took nothing off the healers plates and just made them worry about tanks even more
Can only have a rough season 1 if you pay up tbh, it's entirely optional
@@dracotoy Healers should have to worry about healing, that's their job, it's about time for this game to stop playing itself, and to stop being a game of chase the tank.
Specking into self sufficient tank -> healer complain about dps
Specking to dps tank -> healer complain that he have to heal you more
After the nerf pugs gona complain about both since as you said there few tank busters and scaling is still sucks while some classes still waiting for some buffs. Easiest move for blizzard will be like:
"we gona increase dung time"= problem solved
My “issue” with this is that my contribution to the team becomes so much less. I feel more like I am a “healer mechanic” than an independent role. Which seems to be the intention, since every time tanks are really fun to play it appears to be a mistake from Blizzard.
"tanks aren't that much weaker, just relying on healers, aug and kiting and the group interrupting flawlessly"
What an Elitist comment, you don't need any of that and you'll still be perfectly fine for 99.9999% of the games content.
This is such a dumb take@@slandry4664
@@slandry4664 Yeah, i experience it's yesterday, that "i will be perfectly fine for 99 % cases" 30 sekund later i die from overwhelming melee dmg and lack healing. XD Its was +5 key. Kitting was only option to make that key in time. [playing as VDH]
@@yoorface4680 sounds like a skill issue. * Oh no I died in a m+ once , this death totally means they nerfed already WEAK tanks !!! *
@@slandry4664 Found the person who never uses kick and wipes their group
I think the worst shit Blizz keeps doing is making wide sweeping negative changes to gameplay then they always follow it up with "But don't worry guys, we will also be tuning the dungeons/content accordingly to ensure it feels better" and then they just fucking don't do it. Like why not make these changes AND adjust the encounters at the same time rather then promising to update shit and then just leaving it so it feels like garbage? Really annoying they keep making these weird empty promises.
Ever since m+ became a thing back in legion they havent been able to launch a new expansion without there being a few dungeons that are way overtuned and quickly becomes the "im not going there" type of dungeons.
The one positive thats also a negative is that M+ dosent launch untill 1 month into the expnasion so that gives them a extra month to tune dungeons but even then i dont have much faith in them as their track record when it comes to tuning dungeons is very very poor.
Classic 'create a problem to sell the solution' so they can appear to be improving the game. We're paying for it.
As a long-time healer, I wanted to heal in m+ more and do damage less, but not at the cost of tank survivability (a different pattern of damage dealt to the party would be preferable). During DF I could afford pugging, but in TWW the pressure will be much higher, so I'm returning to the SL decision - putting up a group together
Honestly, they really need to add more knobs than "LINEAR HEALTH" and "LINEAR DAMAGE". For starters, they could start adding curves so that they can tune things in such a way that you're never going into one-shot territory too early. But ideally they'd have far more knobs to turn at higher difficulties. Like why does bolt-style enemies have hit for 90% and then leave it to RNG whether people just explode? Maybe determine that their damage is already high enough, so instead give them haste - more frequent bolts reduce the odds of someone exploding in one GCD. I mean, it's still not ideal, ideal would be having something that prevents the 200% HP damage due to RNG, but baby steps and all that.
We’ve all been saying that and they don’t listen. I might just play delves with my AI alts.
this just solidifies that aug will be brought because now the tanks need it, blizzard is actually brain dead
Aug, prob bear tank for vers, Spriest for fort, mage for lust and survivability and externals like mass barrier and int buff, probably shaman healer for mastery buff (further boosting aug lmao), 5%dr on earth shield and chainheal spam with backup lust and some of the best utility/kick in the game (not to mention curse dispel and poison cleanse totem which will be big in S1). Carbon copy of the mandatory meta from s4 except druid has moved to tank and Rsham has taken over healing. Pally could also take the healing spot, we'll see how it shakes out.
Edit: oh and I can see shadow priest being replaced. Fort and PI are a big deal to lose but I've seen some insane damage from other classes after the changes like frost DK, so I think that third dps spot is a little in the air. But aug+mage is pretty much set in stone
@@FeralKobold frost dk is broken right now that is a terrible take. they will be doing nothing close to that damage next season especially when they lose all haste tier and lego. terrible opinions lmfao
Blizzard clearly want you to pull small.
hence the target cap, the immediate recast after stops, the weaker tanks, more mechanics etc etc.
All changes lead to pulling smaller and each pull being more relevant.
Im not sure that's necessarily a bad thing, it is just different than what we're used to.
I liked it better when we could pull super big, like in Legion
I just wish healing felt more like cata / wotlk. Where you don’t top somebody off with a single heal
So you just want to afk
@@kye4216 “afk”? No. I want to fill the role I’m playing. You didn’t have downtime in cata / mop unless you vastly out geared the content.
I know it sucks as a tank player but tanks were at a point where they'd solo bosses and some big packs in mid-level keys. Something had to be done... at the end this is team content, both for the good and the bad. A deplete sucks but it isn't a life changer.
As a healer main, this sucks. Part of my gripe with requiring healers to help tanks is that our heals don’t do as much for tanks with bigger health pools, so it feels bad and we feel less powerful. I want to see health pools move when I heal them, not inch higher and higher.
As a blood dk main, a spec that a healers vision literally penetrates through like a ghost (and rightly so because I am of course a healer myself) these nerfs are so bad for me personally to get used to. Like being .5 seconds late on a death strike will actually just clothesline you now.
Sometimes wonder if people hear themselves. "It actually matters what other players in your group do now."
I mean...good? It is a group-based game lol. This has always mattered to healers especially, sometimes you join a group where nobody kicks and it is impossible, other times the group is so good you may as well be afk.
Feels like a lot of tanks (and some dps, frankly) want to be Superman in the Justice League where the rest of the team doesn't really matter. Imo Blizzard never should have encouraged this in the first place.
Wait until the expansion is officially out. Right now it’s all subject to tuning still. (I m seeing a lot of posts from tanks hating the game, when the game hasn’t even come out….)
As an HPal main I'm not overly concerned with the changes as I feel our kit is very strong to manage it, 5% DR beacon and barrier should be able handle a lot of it without having to funnel hard into the tank that often
Having the Jdotb death compilation at the end of the tank video goes crazy
High end keys with a tank four dps shouldn't be a thing.
I’m really hoping Blizzard can get damage profiles in check before release
My biggest problem with this change is that they did it so close to release. They knew very well what it will do, they just did not care.
Same changes this large this close to launch is not a good sign.
Bfa gear system comes to mind
Pulling big is the most fun part of M+ for me a long time player and my friend who just started playing 2 weeks ago and for a huge amount of other people that play M+ so anything that takes away from that is a bad choice imo.
And its something thats allowed by the tank being confident in his ability to stay alive. And in pugs, you dont know how good your healer is going in... Overall feel like less people will play tank (very bad because they are already the role in highest demand in pugs), and those that will still play tank will have really cold feets towards big pulls until they know how good the healer is... Which will no doubt lead to yells that the tank should go faster.
Got a sub from me, not often to see top 1% players acknowledging let alone understanding the impact that changes will have on the lower end of the community. I heroic raid and do M+ generally just to get the portals and 2500 sets and never really beyond that. If I am being honest I generally enjoy the lower/mid range content more than the mid/upper end stuff, I.E. 5-8 keystones in S4 and these changes are going to be brutal on me and the lower/mid end of M+ players. As you mention the top end will adjust and make it work regardless of "fun" as seen with the Kite meta in SL. For those not in the top end content and communities this is just a flat nerf to fun and a flat nerf to upward mobility. If you're someone who is capable of 3k io, but play entirely solo, you are at the mercy of the LFG meta which can be brutal and generally you have to start mid ranged and work your way up because there isn't an accurate measurement for skill, but there is for gear. So until you get the gear you have to farm out mid ranged keys. These changes make that even more of a slog and I foresee a lot of people just dipping out because of that.
You can't even farm gear as easily anymore which makes alts even more annoying to play since you need way more runs to get the stones to upgrade and there is only one valuable item for people who only play m+ which is in the vault. If you lose on 6 vauls before you start your alt there is no way around getting boosts in mythic raids. The disparity in ilevel is just too big. Will be even worse when you can't find groups because tanks and healers are nowhere to be found after this mess
Just wanna say, your voice is literally gold.
I feel heavy dungeon nerfs will hit before mplus opens
I hope the "healers should have stuff to heal" mentality Blizz seems to be on somehow works out. Obviously they want to move away from the meta where CC can be chained to prevent damage from ever happening, and healers can dps most of the time. However, I'm worried too much pressure will end up being on the healer for the group's success - which is fine if things are tuned well - but the way things are now it looks kinda stressful. Crossing fingers Blizz gets it right.
I love Blizzards approach. Healer should be responsible to heal and tank use CDs to mitigate damage. Blizzard should just tune numbers and smooth out most damage and we Gucci.
This approach is only going to make less people play healers and tanks though. M+ participation is about to be down a ton
Blizzard's solution to stop alienating healers is to just alienate every kek
The problem was dps defensive creep so M+ having to do insane damage for anyone to be in danger. So obviously Blizz nerfed tanks. I watched Jaks video on the healer perspective and it was just so wildly off the mark for anyone not playing at the cutting edge. He was having trouble keeping Equinox alive. What actual chance do I have as a random pug, get my portals and chill, tank? People were acting like tanks being self sufficient was this automatic, no skill, passive thing that tanks had. That was the skill expression for tanks. So now that's gone, what do I have left?
agreed, we've preached for the defensive creep problem forever and they target tank defensives instead. the idea that tanks were unkillable was more of a higher end fotm tank or overgeared problem
@@Dorki Its like the play COD or some shit all Day and don´t pay ANY attention towards WOW and M+, its SO CRAZY like I dont unterstand.. I thought they saved M+ with the new Affix System, no more Push-Weeks and so on, but wow boy was I wrong. OFC..
There's the whole cooldown-centric healer design going on right now as well. Healers with CDs up can just bring people from the brink of death to a perfect bill of health in one or two GCDs. The only way to challenge these healers is by forcing them to lose their CDs (by making people die from 90% health so that they are forced to heal them back up faster than no-CD allows). imo healing is the most fun when you barely have any CDs and it's mostly about picking the best tool for the job in the shortest amount of time, so I don't really mind the spiky gameplay, I just hate that the spiky gameplay is accompanied by very strict CD management, which causes healers to have very little skill expression - you either saved the CDs so everyone lives without real danger or you didn't and everyone just dies.
I saw Jak's video and I honestly believe it won't affect tanks who aren't at the cutting edge either. Most pug tanks in under 10s are straight garbage and can barely do their rotation while pulling. They aren't really using their defensives in a thought out, planned matter anyway. At best they're just panic hitting them or they don't even hit them and just die while blaming the healer. Same thing for dps, they have defensives but half the people you come across in sub 10s won't even move out damage zones, let alone use a defensive. So they were already dying stupidly before, they'll just continue that trend.
I get this is likely gonna suck for the top tier players. But for a lot of the player base, not that much is changing. My buddy is intent on tanking for season 1 and he's crying all about "amagad s1 kite meta here we go again, this is shit just like shadowlands" and I continually have to keep telling him we run fucking ticky tack keys. None of this will apply to him or our group just like it didn't apply in shadowlands because we never ran high enough keys for it to matter.
If you're pugging truly high end keys, you're likely right and it's gonna suck, but then that is already the case now to some extent. If you pug with a random tank you don't know, he just might be absolutely terrible.
Again, not saying I agree with these changes they made, but i've seen a ton of people (who run low keys) just crying about it when it really won't affect them.
@@TheLeroy125 Do you know how much fucking people run high keys? Just look at the 0,1% Title Cutoff. There are thousands. Yes, majority is doing low keys where it wont matter, but there are many players doing high keys, most of them pugging.
its gonna be exactly ehat dorki stated, shadowlands s1 all over again, all tanks with popo set(not that there were any in SL) and meta being not the tankiest one but the one that could run and kite the best
I’ve literally been asking Blizz to keep tanks self-sufficient but reduce crazy spikes of damage on the whole group and make it more consistent overall damage. Somehow they increased crazy spikes of damage and nerfed tanks. Screw the players who actually know what would make the game better.
I agree with everything you’re saying / explaining. I really hope they either revert these changes or just outright change them for the better. The more I learned about tww over the past few weeks have really killed my hype for the expansion. Fuck aug btw
Tanks should need healing when pulling big or vs a boss. I think Blizz needs to cut overall damage way down and boost mob HP. Dungeons should be mostly a DPS check. Healers will need to do a some damage if they want to push keys, no way around it. Maybe some exchange with the DPS, so they can stand in fire to give the healer something to do hah.
I’m conflicted on this change, I mainly play healer so I welcome actually mattering again, since it felt I was there to do mechanics DPS did t wanna do.
As a tank this is concerning since having a bad healer is a pain
I kinda don't get the "bad players" argument. If your suck as a healer and/or tank then maybe its okay that you cap out at 10s or whatever
Imagine tanking with the new nerfs and you see Jangbi in your group 💀
could be worst he could be the healer
The DPS players I think need a mentality change, along with the changes.
I was playing BETA as prot pally doing just fine btw.
And I had a dps say to me "Tank, you're dumb"
He said that because the healer left, and yet I pulled the boss anyway.
We were waiting for a healer, it didn't matter. It's beta as well, there is no rating
and it means nothing if you die in it.
The DPS need to relies they are easily replaced. They need to start to understand their worth.
They are absolutely needed, and really good dps are awesome. But not hard to find is the point.
A good tank is. And I feel more than ever now.
Treat your tanks with respect.
When you talk about "high keys", what kind of key level is that? Is it something that already becomes noticeable at like +8-10, or more a problem at the 15+ range?
On beta it would mean around 10s/12s because of the current gear available and just based on what I've been watching dorki and everyone test. When it goes live and we get better gear I'd expect that to increase into the 15+ Range but with how wacky tuning is right now and having both fort and tyran and that extra modifier affix on top in 12+, I think keys are going to feel significantly harder than s4 and we'll be seeing top key levels 1-3 levels lower than what we're used to depending on the key.
You speaking out is so important, I hope they listen to you. I feel like I will have such a bad time as tank main in pugs this next expansion if this staiys as it is.
Ok not coming back after hearing this.
As Im always bepended on puggs because off work.
This is gonna be hell for pugging tanks.
Maybe I am old, but shouldn't healers be healing (their role in group)? However, spike damage to the group and the tank taking "more" damage is not a fun scenario as a healer (or the others in the group). I will (most likely) be tanking in TWW. It will suck for me big time if the healer is not prepared for this change and I end up inspecting the floor of the dungeon.
They hate us pulling multiple packs, they've been in an arms race with us since Legion trying to stop it. Don't know why they're determind to fight players on it. Guess they're still upset streamers were clearing MOS in three pulls.
delete aug
Preach, complete agree I think the most enjoyable part of m+ is pulling big and having fun. The amount of times I get pms from dps and healers about how they enjoyed how much I pulled when I'm going up the rating ladder is a pretty big number.
also it feels horrible to die on a tank being a healer didn't keep you up. It feels much better when you know it was your fault because you control your life bar.
It's the best part until you need to do interrupts or dot everything 😂
The issue is there is just too much group damage going out that the healer CAN'T dedicate globals to the tank. Also, not every healer is created equally. PEvoker is pretty much reliant on Time Dilation (minute CD) to even keep the tank up outside of its HoTs since their single target healing is turbo swamp since Verdant Embrace is not only also on a fairly long cooldown, but is most of the time a suicide button if you want to heal the tank with it.
Wanted to play prevoker in war within and my goblin shaman. Was very hyped initially and prevoker with the latest tierset with instand living flame felt really good. It was already tough in season 3 to have something for every moment but with tanks being paper now and the reliance on CD or misjudging a situation and accidentally killing yourself on top of the limited range this spec will be trash to play unless super overturned. On the other hand if you already have Aug in the group which sounds like it's going to be a must have then it's gg because of overlapping utility anyways... I just cancelled my sub and see what it will look like in a few months when the game is out of beta. And don't get me started on the gearing changes for people who only push m+
Lifespark charges..?
Prevoker tank healing is fine.
We gonna act like echo reversion for golden hour procs isn’t one of the best spot heals in the game? Are you trolling? Sustained single target healing, sure. But tank healing? Pres is ironically one of the better ones
@amethonys2798 I'm late to the party on this but as a mythic raid pres evoker. Season 3 and before pres spot healing was dogshit. U needed 3 globals to create meaningful spot healing. That's dogshit. TANK healing isn't a problem. Tanks don't die in 3 globals unless ur fucking up bad. U can pump up Tanks as pres just fine. It's spot healing in one global that used to suck. Now that lifespark exists+both hero specs u have more consistent options to spot heal.
I didnt play for like 8months i was excited for next expansion , congratulations you killed my hype 😅
Blizzard killed the hyper AFTER I bought the new xpac
@@gymlife408 from my experience last few years in gaming i can say never pre-order or buy an early access game especially blizzard games
I totally agree that it's a false narrative that tanks need no healing in DF.
I think it's a result of the DH tank domination and how broken they were. Copious amounts of parry and stops.
On my prot pala i cannot survive without a healer. I will oom. Some bosses also have mechanics which debuff the tanks and without a dispel the tank will die.
As a healer this is one of the worst changes blizzard has ever attempted. The workload on healers where already to high at times.
Yea my wife heals and I tank and we are pretty much at a straight fuck that. Probably won't get the expansion at this point. We were 3k+ RIO till we quit mid S3, and I'm pretty sure anyone that has been in the mid 20 keys would agree that healers do indeed have to heal while getting bitches at of they don't get a chance to dps.
This is clearly a change for the bad players that can hardly time a 15 if at all IMO.
Preach ! Some people do suck at tanking and healing. This isn't a new problem ! But it's way harder when you need to play and worry about routes or pulls or threat so on.
Its harder when you need to worry about Routes, pulls and threats..... sooooo you mean playing a tank........ Those are literally the 3 jobs of a tank.
Let me ask you this though, do you think that it sucks right now because your gear sucks? I'm assuming that on beta you're not completely kit out in full M+ gear yet. Could it be that later in the season once you get some better gear and more optimal stats that things will level out a bit? Then going into season 2, you'll already be set up with good stats so it'll feel a lot smoother?
not really unless they do some tuning. Like gear is playing a little bit of a factor but the main issue right now is the damage profile is still way too spikey.
good, tanks needed this change. tanks and healers being the only relevant roles in WoW has been an issue since MoP or Cata.
Tanks and healers shouldnt be demigods runing around blessing dps players with their presence.
"nobody has fun when the tank is weak and has a high chance of dying." Translation: dps dont care while tanks dont have as much fun because they have to actually pay attention and not do massive chain pulls that only tanks and meter whores seem to enjoy. And healers like the increased role importance as you said and they asked for.
get over yourself, tanks needed dropped a few pegs in power. period.
Basically you're saying that bad players are going to have a tough time and the M+ dungeons aren't tuned properly? I'm struggling to see how this is any different than any other expansion release.
Aug is the worst thing since the real money auktion house in D3
I mean... it's not great, but the main problem is that aug is the ONLY spec filling that particular role. Broadening it for others would probably help. I'd suggest enhancement, feral and survival be retooled to aug-like specs since they all share the same issue.
@@niklasberggren4919nah. Delete that ugly ass class instead.
@@niklasberggren4919would take too long and it would lead to even more reliance on having X spec to be successful in high keys. Just delete aug or rework it into a normal dps. It’s awful for the games balance and blizzard is too slow to add more similar specs. We got evoker in what? 6 years? Xd also Fck no don’t rework surv into some dirty support spec. Doing that to already existing dps specs will just ruin those specs for a lot of people. I’d delete my surv instantly if that happened lmao
As a healer and a high level healer, I 100% agree with you. This is a worse direction for the game. The other healers just don't realize it yet.
I think there's a world where this can work. But I'm not going to sit here and say optimistically "yeah Blizzard will tune it." Guess what, they won't. The spec and encounter designers will continue not talking to each other, leading to wonky fights favoring certain classes heavily. It will be like every thing else they do and it will be put on their backlog for the next 12-18 months and the game will suffer in the mean time. A lot of tanking specs will lose their personality and gameplay that made them, them. In the pursuit of every Tank feeling like Brewmaster to heal. There will be a lot of confusion and animosity in groups over who is the problem when things go south.
And all of this will benefit us in what way? Gameplay that is effectively "cookie clicker" for the healers. I see your hp bar go down, I click button. Wow. Fun. Tank healing isn't the fun stuff to heal. The fun stuff to heal is things like Rasha'nan second phase, Anub'ikkaj, EDNA if I didn't need to watch the tank, Skarmorak, Etc. Not sitting there and spam healing the tank. I'd rather just do my DPS rotation in my downtime.
These changes are a big Loss for the game. Right on the back of the big W in terms of the affix changes. Such a shame.
And, as an aside - People who think tanks didnt need healing in Dragonflight just didn't push high enough keys. That's like saying a +10 needs to be more difficult. No, you just need to do a higher key level my guy. That's the way the system works. It's intentional. So we don't drop new players into +18's. A +10 is just your average weekly key for vault loot. It's not supposed to be super difficult. I don't expect to need to heal the entire time. In fact, If I have to that's probably a bad sign in terms of dungeon balance.
Mythic dungeons destroyed the 5 man experience for me. Was just another reason I stopped playing. Came back to try the next expansion. The speed running sucks.
Cool, i switched to tanking becz there were none to play with. Inb4 a ton of tanks ditching the roll, not being able to group becz everyone switched off then logging off lol
What are the chances these are season 1 scaling and dungeon tuning pains? Loads of expacs started rough for m+ and within a few weeks were tuned better? I'm legit asking as I was away for 5 weeks and haven’t played any of beta apart from doing 1 random necrotic wake that bugged at second boss.
Personally I like this change since as tank I felt I am way too much one man army, aka do solid damage, survive everything, and able top heal myself, it goes against idea of team dungeon, people there should be reliant on each other and it gives healers more active role then just compensating for players mistakes and offsetting undodgeable abilities. I consistent healing profile like that gives healers target to strive for, which will make healing more satisfying.
In my opinion survival of tank should be 50% in hands of healer and 50% in hands of tank.
I hope t will not lead to something dumb like kiting meta (I think Blizzard can make it so kiting will not be optimal way like: reduce long range aggro generation, reduce side damage so healer has enough time to heal tank and so on).
Maybe it will not work and it devolves into kiting, but I have my hopes.
I think the game was in such a good place, however i seem to be the only one.... (healer)
Once again healers get fucked. I've healed since TBC and this is an awful change with how the current healing profiles are in M+. I'd be totally fine having to heal the tank if the DPS weren't losing 80% of their health while actively dodging all the swirlies, frontals, high damage dots that your spec might not be able to dispell, etc. It's just not a fun environment to play in anymore. DPS be laid back chilling dodging shit and hitting things while healers have high blood pressure and constant anxiety for the whole run trying to keep everyone alive despite no one getting hit by avoidable mechanics.
They should just add a beta only NPC that can give u a buff for 20% dmg taken reduction but also 20% healing recieved reduction.
Same for 30%, 40%, 50% ...
And let the players figure out what feels good .... healers asked for dmg pattern that are not as spike~y but tanks lose 70-90% of their health in 1 hit; so they basicly achieved the opposite
Kite meta is back for pugs. Tanks are not going to just blindly trust random healers. If they don't have the tools to deal with damage they tank.
I kinda hope s1 of tww is terrible and engagement drops off hard as a way to tell blizzard this is not it.
As usual, fun was detected by devs and was promply fixed.
The complaint about relying on your healer, pug healers being a dice roll and the healer dying being detrimental are exactly what it has felt picking pug tanks since the dawn of man. To quote Jb, it would be nice if healers could deplete a key too, not just tanks and dps (which is needed if you want healers to be able to carry a group).
What infuriates me the most about the upcoming change to M+ tanking is that its gonna put even more emphasis on having a DH tank. By experience, the more needy tanks get, the more vdh shines due to its mobility, ridiculous utility and threat management while playing evasive. I dont mind being forced into it to push the top 1% of keys, but if not playing a vdh feels like trolling your group in a weekly +10, thats a rough spot for tanking as a whole.
i'm trying to always be positive. BUT, i'm really unhappy with the Tanks nerf.
It's already hard to find fun but now...i feel it deep in my stomach when i play the beta, it's unfun
When you order your mmo from Etsy instead of Amazon.
"In most scenarios its not a problem as long as healers are actually paying attention to the tank."
This is 100% accurate. It just isn't what we've had for multiple expansions now, and while ABSOLUTELY DOABLE... it just isn't as much fun, at least for me.
Beta being an absolute crapshow around balance, and then this tank nerf without any dungeon changes... with less than a month to launch of the expansion is pure insanity. I'm out, at least for the first and maybe second season. With me come those I play with, as they chose on their own, not to stay either.
Bummer. Hopefully Blizz returns to producing FUN and not SLOGs that are coated in nostalgia that literally no one asked for. Healers wanted to get to heal more, and dps less as a valid option; they didn't ask for tanks to be nuked from orbit.
Anyway, Dorki, perfect video as always. I'll stick to watching you play, instead of playing myself. :D
I prefer a tank balance where they basically don't need the healer if they play correctly outside of maybe a few special boss attacks.
I don't mind needing healing as a tank, but that shouldn't be required in the weekly key range
Maybe not all tanks, but some (especially blood DK) should be self-sufficient in most situations, and those that arent should have very stable health pools
Inge change from healers becoming unimportant back to you definetly need a good heal. Hmm need to play it myself to say if I like it or not
Looks like they are going back to how it was. You gotta know what your doing and be decent at it. Hopefully this will impact guild value. They have made the game easy for people that couldn't or didn't want to invest time in game. Casual players should still have content but by taking the game completely in that direction has ruined the challenge of it.
I’m not looking forward to kiting as a tank.
That’s the worse part of tanking back in Legion.
sorry but i wont be using a aug lol, i dont want to rely on that class.
Well as a Healer main and Offtank i would say i really miss the days where i actually had to Hard save the tank. Nowadays its more like i throw a couple of hots on the tank just because, its very seldom the tank is actually in danger in DF... The days where i could f.ex TauntMeld a dangerous mob to give the tank some breathingroom is long gone. I almost never done it in entire of DF but i used it ALOT in previous expacs. Specially the big tankbuster mob in 2nd last boss Necrotic Wake wich stacks tankbusters
make less party dmg, so less healing the dps and more healing the tank and this problem is fixed
it is simple. I see dorki video, I click like
as a tank, i understand the thought process behind the change made to tanks. but the implementation of it is in the wrong order. they should be looking to rework the dungeons they have made and reduce the amount of mechanics and group wide damage of each packs in the dungeon before making the changes to the tank. but instead, we are left with nerfed, fragile tanks and a selection of untouched dungeons with each packs having more mechanics than a whole raid tier. Healers are going to be to focused on healing dps leaving tanks to die. they have 25 days left before release and 2-3 weeks after that before m+ comes out. tbh i dont think this is enough time for them to make the necessary changes to the dungeons so we are going to be left with another season where DH excels as DH has the best kit to do the kiting necessary.
As somebody who usually played only up to ~22/23 (haven't played since the m+ changes), this seems disheartening. Maybe I should roll aug again, seems to be the more reliable group slot and gameplay is definitely more relaxing.
Pug life will be even worse.. healers will get flamed for every tank death :D which will make them quit healing and tanks will quit tanking cause they can not control their own survival :/ so 98% of m+ players will be mages, sp and augs 🙈
I think the best part about tanking is that you are in full control of your survival. It makes learning tanking way better cause you dont have any execuses for dieing
You die -> you messed up
If the tank nerfs didn't really make that much of a difference, and tanks are not that much worse from before, then why would an aug be more mandatory than before, dungeons/encounters need tuning, healers having to focus on you more, and kiting to an extent be the situation we're in. This season just seems like it's not going to be fun to tank and you'd think blizzard would want to encourage people to play healer/tank roles.
I play mDPS only and pug almost all the time. I hated Shadowlands S1 so much I quit the game back then. Nothing sours my experience more than having to run around after mobs or the tank randomly losing aggro and me getting one shot. It really feels like Blizzard saw people having too much fun in Mythic+ and participating more than Raiding, and they can't have that. You will raid or you will die. The nerfs to tanks and heals and the doubling down of packs having 10 abilities you need to track have severely diminished by excitement for the expansion. And don't even get me started on Augmentation.
Would have thought they would want M+ to be popular - but this just risks taking all the fun out of it and turning people away.
"Healers are bearing more responsibility to keep the group/dps alive". You'd wanna hope so. Healers basically just DPSed for like 80% of high m+ in dragonflight lol...
U was playing +5?
@@yoorface4680 actually 23 was my highest although i did quit early on.
im so glad for this change tbh, God tank mentality is a straight up annoyance. Tanks shouldnt be fighting both healers and dps on both meters at the same time. As a dps it was an annoyance, because why the fuck am i playing a dps when i could just play a tank and do nearly the same dps with a billion times more survivability. This from a multi KSH player. Im not pushing 26's but the majority of the playerbase isnt. Bring back the roles. Dps should be doing dps, tanks should be holding aggro and taking damage, and healers should be healing the group, not just the dps. In my experience, healing 20s I almost ignored the tank completely and just dumped into the dps, since the tanks just couldnt die. Hell half the time the tank would be the last one standing during a wipe, which is just wack. Lower the group damage and heighten the tank damage. Dps shouldnt have to sit there and rotate 13 defensives a pull just to not get one shot by uninterruptible splash damage.
I’m main heals and I don’t understand why the healer’s community is celebrating that like is the best thing ever. I think those nerfs are going to affect everyone’s game play. I still think that there is no way TWW is going live like that though lol
If this is the state of tww I am not going to play. I love tanking but this way sucks… blizzard wake up, pugs grup will bè hell
I am listening to this and hearing stuff like: "Now you actually need a healer to keep tanks and dps alive", seems to make so much sense. Why would this not be the case? This is an MMO, if you want to be able to do all the roles, play a single player game. A tank should not be a dps, a healer should not be a dps. M+ is so bad for the game, giving all the classes everything, while making them all feel like crap simultaneously.