ALL CLASSES RANKED FINALE - Pathfinder 2e: The HIGH Levels (15 to 20) ! - Livestream #33
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- Опубликовано: 5 окт 2022
- Our journey concludes!
Tonight we cover the very highest echelons of power in Pathfinder 2e where our characters pass from the mere heroic to the SUPERheroic rivaling the power (and abilities) of Superman and Thor :D Which classes will rise to the top? Will the Fighter remain supreme? Can the alchemist finally prove its worth?!
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Игры
Updated timestamps:
30:42 Alchemist
43:11 Barbarian
50:21 Bard
1:01:08 Champion
1:19:01 Cleric
1:36:03 Druid
1:47:47 Fighter
1:54:06 Gunslinger
1:58:47 Inventor
2:04:02 Investigator
2:09:31 Magus
2:14:21 Monk
2:22:55 Oracle
2:29:22 Psychic
2:32:13 Ranger
2:40:37 Rogue
2:45:39 Sorcerer
2:51:01 Summoner
2:58:33 Swashbuckler
3:04:08 Thaumaturge
3:10:21 Witch & Wizard
Shout out to Charyk!
40:36 Alchemist
53:05 Barbarian
1:00:15 Bard
1:11:02 Champion
1:28:55 Cleric
1:45:57 Druid
1:57:41 Fighter
2:04:00 Gunslinger
2:08:41 Inventor
2:13:56 Investigator
2:19:25 Magus
2:24:15 Monk
2:32:49 Oracle
2:39:16 Psychic
2:42:07 Ranger
2:50:31 Rogue
2:55:33 Sorcerer
3:00:55 Summoner
3:08:27 Swashbuckler
3:14:02 Thaumaturge
3:20:15 Witch & Wizard
I was wondering why it took 40 minutes to actually start the rankings...
So awesome - thank you!
This is outdated now - have posted another one with corrected timestamps!
100 round, or 10 minute dungeon is an awesome concept.
Love the content, you guys are hilarious to listen too alongside the in depth discussion.
While I don’t always agree with the final rankings of some classes, it’s always makes sense why you guys placed them where you did and I really appreciate getting to see what you think of them.
Yeah my ratings are nothing more than a reflection of my analysis. If someone has different data points and observations they are always free to bring them up and we’ll listen!
Love your content! That first bit in the beginning of the stream had me chuckling, especially since I've seen the aforementioned reddit thread. Thank you for your hard work and please keep the content coming :)
Glad you enjoyed it!
Lol, so I guess fighter, rogue, wizard and cleric from beginner box are all you need after all.
It is the Evergreen, for already 50 years, after all. 😉 - And, PF2E is finally(!) a version of the system that does not do the Rogue dirty. 🤘
@@Badbentham there were a song in Russian about an alliance of Fighter, Cleric, Mage and Thief, it is an archetypical party after all. At end of the day maybe it's actually for the better when beginners can just pick basic clean classes and not get punished with suboptimal results because they weren't aware you're supposed to pick some supplement rare multiclass bullshit
I wish they made witch a stacking hex class. Additional effects if enemy has more than one hex. Sustaining a couple of hexes. Purging a hex to deal damage as a burst. Make it have a curse maelstrom activated on an enemy while they have a hex or something. The whole class just feels like an afterthought.
Free boosted eidelon with same attack bonus as other martial classes with a greater striking rune gets a +9 to each hit base. It's +8 for the A level Fighter. Tell me that a 9th level chain lighting, an attack rivaling any martial, plus an automatic knock down or grab is somehow a D. Plus attack of opportunity. All in 1 round. You're wrong.
Monk loses by 1 AC normally, Mountain stance (with the whole progression tree) is Full Plate Monk
In regards to barbarian, I find them to be a great secondary archetype for eeking the most damage out of the build. Most classes get more damage by combining two or more attacks worth of damage while minimizing/eliminating the multiple attack penalty so they don’t stack well together. Barbarian is one of the few places you can find a flat damage buff.
Witch was sacrificed on the altar of evil eye cackle 1e witches
I am glad that they mentioned the captain America champion. When they talked about a lack of agro mechanics all i could think of were the athletics actions.
Yeah in our first Actual Play (Rise of the Runelords) the Champion had realized by about level 10 that if he wanted to be able to do what he ACTUALLY wanted to do .. he was going to have to re-spec into a free-hand style build
Im sure you already heard this. but i would love a video, or a stream of how you would fix each class, or leave it alone. i would love to hear your take on how to fix a lot of the classes.
With champions, even without free archetype I tend to archetype magus for spellstrike. Champions actually have good focus spells that can hit like a truck when they connect.
Yeah for charop build purposes I see a lot of people picking up magus at higher levels these days just for the spellstrike.
During Season 1 of our Northern Reaches megagame a popular build was Investigator/Wizard/Magus since they were all Int-based and Devise a Strategem could let you know if you want to go all-in on a spellstrike, or if the d20 roll was locked in to being low, you could just Cast a Spell that didn't use a Spell Attack Roll instead.
"Who owns the Legends book?"
Derik, you know the answer to that. Lol
Of course :D
An F may be 58% across the pond but over here it's like 15 to 30 percent... of the lower ability paper. Which could be why there are people freaking out about F tier classes.
29:33 for the actual start..
I need a tier list for just the class dedication feats! 🤞🏽
I've watched it on youtube, cause I dont mind the 4 hours of interesting content, but I can't join your stream because time zones are a thing^^
Same here! Listening through my work day as I'd never be able to catch the stream live
Not sure about the champions that you’ve played with, but normally they are the ones leading the way and they will put themselves between the squishier characters and the monster. Smart ones may even position themselves to where it is impossible for a monster to get around.
Physical hardblocking is a fine option; but impractical in most instances of d20 based game - it's just as easy to walk around someone.
To be fair I guess it depends on how you are your group play grid-based combat? Like if you have an enemy spell caster and 20' in front of it is a big hulking bodyguard... do your players agree that the spellcaster is off limits and only attack the bodyguard?
Here are a few thoughts while watching (I'm EU so I can't be there live :D ) :
I loved the video and agreed with 90% of it, this is not an attack, I'm a Knight and love the show and community.
General : I feel like the Hero point system is missing from those debates. Inventor for example have a 5% chance to crit miss Overdrive, but you will Hero point that, so it's then 0.0025%
Champion : What if you are perma Huge ? You can Physically block the path, put yourself in front of the squishy. I also think that Paladin can have good damage. Blade ally is a thing and you have focus points.
Summoner : My favorite class and my main in NR. The action economy is nuts and the versatility too. Spontaneous for any tradition is huge. But the thing I like the most is the Gish, let me explain. Imo martials big level-ups are even level, because you get your class feats. Casters big level-ups are odd because you get your new spells (and caster feats are weaker). Summoner and Magus gets both I swear. Every level feels exiting because you either get Martial feat or highest level spells ! Also, I really don't mind having only 4 spells, I actually enjoy that. I'm not casting 3rd level spells in end game, I'm not, and wands and scrolls exists.
Wizard : My second character in NR. Spell Blending gets to be broken in my opinion. You get to have the most high level spell period. All the best spells are Arcane, and you will be casting them more than anyone else. The other fields are all great too.
all that being said, I very much agree with the discussion in the end. Doing nothing more than 1/3 of the time feels awful as a caster.
Regarding the hero point thing: crit failing overdrive hero pointing and then crit failing again is a 0.25% chance of actually happening sure. But if you're in the situation where you have already crit failed and decide to hero point you then have a 5% chance of crit failing again. The probability of pre-determined events doesn't matter in said case because it's well... predetermined.
So you gave a lot of interesting takes on fixes you would give for classes like champion and witch. Would you ever do a long form video like this again on how you would boost the classes?
Honestly; that's the kind of thing I would hope to do in a published format like our Battle Cry e-zine
@@KnightsofLastCall Regardless, how the video is made I cannot wait to watch or be apart of the audience! Keep up the great content.
Seems like Fighter only came down relative to the fact that more classes come into their power (and his advantage range) in the last tier of play. So its fair to go either direction, either Fighter comes down to A, or several classes also move into S. I still strongly think this gives the advantage to the fighter who is great from day 1 and stays there, vs classes having to start weak and get there. I don't agree on C tier for Gunslinger. If the fighter is S tier broadly for being able to hit/crit more often, then the Gunslinger I think is A tier for that alone, even if feats etc aren't as good, they still are as good as a fighter in the biggest area it counts and its no ding that it applies to just firearms, because that's the whole point of a Gunslinger anyway.
your intro rant was so goddamn funny dude. i think maybe because it was off the cuff but jesus lmao i think i’ve listened to it three times and it came out last night
Have you ever SEEN a champion’s reaction?!
I haven’t. 💀 💀
:D :D :D
The Investigator get access to, "True Perception" easy one of the best trait ever.
2:31:11 you are forgetting that the Shield spell gives you access to the Shield Block action and at higher levels its absorbing 20+ damage
Well.... Just once
We all experienced greatness tonight, thank you!!
Our pleasure!
Has anyone actually played a thaumaturge? I'm interested in hearing about builds and how they actually perform in combat and outside of it.
59:50 But it really isn't enough! There are several levels in several classes where the amount of meaningful choice you can make is really reduced. It's awesome to have to give up things and make actual decisions about your character direction and I completely agree that Free Archetype goes too much in one direction. Past level 12 I feel like a clown car full of grab-bag feats. But a lot of levels just feel _barren_ to me in terms of character building satisfaction if I don't have something like free archetype.
Free archetype is far from ideal for me, I want a more limited variant maybe, or different in some way I can't quite imagine yet, but it's still better than the base rules for me.
Tangentially, I've also always gotten the impression that using 4 feats to get spell domain, basic, expert, master spellcasting access is extremely boring from the character building side when you're using free archetype. While it can lead to interesting results in game, it feels very lackluster when I'm planning out the character -- there's nothing interesting choice-wise there. But when you're not using free archetype and you have to figure out when you can give up on class feats to get spellcasting, then that can be more interesting. The satisfaction from slotting full spellcasting into your character via free archetype is also much lower than pursuing some of the non-class archetypes. So, I think this shows how free archetype meshes poorly with some of the archetype design decisions from the base game.
Well said... I agree that later on it definitely feels like a "clown car" of feats (great wording)... But early on, FA feels so good when you have so few feats or abilities... Ideas or builds can take so long to come online in pf2 that having more options earlier would be better.
I love this series of videos, but it's really obvious chat is forgetting the tier scaling discussion at the beginning. C is *not* bad people, your favorite class is not always an A, or an S.
I just want a system where my monk fists are breaking through iron like anime
And this monk is the closest
If I want to play the nimble monk I got 50 other table top games with that stereotype
Also, someone forgot to add Monk to Drizzt's resume.
No cap, plant Eidolon has amazing battlefield control can trip and grab from 25 ft away with assurance to avoid MAP
I understand the tank examples you use for the champion but they are a bad to compare to each other, as everything you complained about a tank with out a gun happend succesfull xD
Real world wars and small skirmish fights are very different.
However I agreed with the points you make in the system :)
Can monsters aid each other?
They can... however, MOST GMs [including me] don't do it that often, because quite frankly it's a pain in the ass to track :D
@@KnightsofLastCall One of the things I loved about 3e/3.5e/Pathfinder 1e was that what PCs could do, monsters could do too (indeed, most big monsters had PC class levels). It meant you could use lower level enemies with excellent tactics to really challenge PCs who had bad or average tactics. And nothing made PCs take a second look at a rule faster than when it was used *against* then to devastating effect. My PCs came to dread all lawful evil or lawful Neutral enemies, because they knew I interpreted "lawful" as "Ben gets to use every sneaky tactic he can think of to get the misters to work together to kill us." (Not that I was trying to kill them. Just trying to defeat and humiliate them into an ignominious retreat, so they'd learn to use smarter tactics next time. Also, it made them *love* fighting chaotic enemies...)
Back to the GM saying it must be int 0 zombies to not attack the Champion is incorrect. Normal situation. The champion walks in front, opens the door and goes in to a room first. This triggers initiative and battle happens. In that battle most monsters would attack the dude that is right in their face. They would NOT meta game and say "Run around this dude that is right in front of me, and hope he doesn't get a free attack on me, and attack the spell casters in the back". So I would argue that this is being abused by the GM. We are talking about the first seconds of combat, and yes players can use strategy, as that is their advantage. Monsters though should fight within their intelligence and even slightly above intelligent monsters would for the first round or two attack the guy right in front of them. They probably would even try and flank that dude. Now having said all that, I do hope that the Champion gets some stronger attack against evil creatures that would punish GMs who want to do this "run around the heavily armored guy" and attack the squishy guys. The core issue that I see is if you bring things like taunt in to this game it starts to look a lot like 4e and WoW.
I think when ranking high level classes you should also include how good it is to get to that levels with certain classes, because 99% players don't start there. Therefore only rating them by highest levels which only 25-20% of gameplay ONLY if they get to 20 level is misleading. That's my opinion
Are you aware that we have 2 other streams... one covering the low-levels and one the mid-levels?
@@KnightsofLastCall Oh, I missed those, my apologize, I am new here and I thought it's just "highest level ranked" and that's it.
1:16:00 roleplaying monsters very much should happen. Attacking the full plate sorcerer with the wraiths is absolute bullshit unless they have an ability to see who has the fewest hit points. Do the wraiths know what feats the characters have? Do the monsters know what archetypes the characters have? Players have to spend actions to recall knowledge to know basic shit about monsters, while you metagame every monster as a mastermind who knows everything about the party. That's so disgusting.
I absolutely understand not attacking a champion that just stacks their armor class who doesn't even attack, but that's completely different from your example.
At the end, I ultimate agree with Derik: Balanced, but honestly, lots of classes are BORING. And I want to like the inventor so much, it has good flavor! But it's implementation is just lacking. =(
Very interesting insights you share, thanks 🙂
Phew, you really make me consider going back to 5e. Realising some of these issues with PF2e made me see the game is not the fix to 5e I had hoped for. We only played for a month so far but players are really struggling with all the new complexities, tracking conditions and persistant damage (playing old school - not online).
With a bunch of casters in the group I interpret your ending conslusions as 5e would be more rewarding for less effort...
How is 5e more rewarding?
Pf2 isn't perfect, but it's best system I've played in 35+ years of gaming.
If you want a beer and pretzels game, then play 5e.
If you want a more tactical, and more challenging, game, then play pf2.
Nothing wrong with beer and pretzels BTW.
Note that Abomination Vaults ap coming out for 5e. So if you prefer 5e, you can play it, but also actually play a good adventure.
@@abobbins "How is 5e more rewarding?"
I'm referring to the conclusions near the end regarding:
1: Casters often are unrewarding as their spells relatively often get resisted late game
2: Monsters needing retuning in late game
3: Combat gets repetetive - example used is Double Slice ending up being your bread and butter
Mind you I haven't played late game. I'm trying to learn from the discussions in this video.
My reason for trying out PF2e after years of D&D was fewer save or suck spells, more nuanced combat, better balance at late game, no standard attack of opportunity = more mobility and fixes for broken classes like monk.
Some of these are fixed in PF2e but from this video it certainly seems other issues arise.
If putting in much more work with tracking conditions, buffs, persistant damage, extra dice rolls etc I'm not sure it is a more rewarding game. Especially not considering how much more work it takes to learn and track.
"Pf2 isn't perfect, but it's best system I've played in 35+ years of gaming"
Well in my 35 years of playing rpgs I haven't found the perfect system but I am searching for inspiration and trying out new stuff like PF2e.
"If you want a beer and pretzels game, then play 5e. If you want a more tactical, and more challenging, game, then play pf2. Nothing wrong with beer and pretzels BTW."
I think that is a bit condescending regarding 5e. For our group where most are parents with full time jobs and many other hobbies, they dont have the time to invest like us more devoted nerds/hobbyist. For them it is hard remember how their 10 spells work or what is an action/bonus action.
I agree it certainly is more simple. Based on the above I am starting to consider how great a value that is. If PF2e brings as many issues/frustrations but for much more work I am starting to reasses my preferences.
"Note that Abomination Vaults ap coming out for 5e. So if you prefer 5e, you can play it, but also actually play a good adventure."
I am not a fan of you handsweeping conclusion that all adventures played in D&D are "not good". Not that important though as I prefer making my own adventures based on the player's backgrounds.
@@larsj.jensen5993 All good points. I've played 5e and it's a very nice simple system. Apologies if came across condescending.
And pf2 is certainly more involved in some ways.
If your group is super busy and prefer a simpler system, then 5e might be better for you.
In terms of adventures, I was referring to the bad experiences I had running some 5e official modules.
Paizo official adventures on the whole far better written than 5e ones.
But, if you're home brewing, it's a moot point.
Happy gaming!
@@abobbins Thanks man - guess we kinda agree :)
As I said we are only a month into PF2e so I am still very open to learning / very unexperienced.
As the GM I especially have a hard time with tracking stuff. I hear online play in Foundry handles alot of that but we really prefer meeting up for the social experience with pen and paper.
@@larsj.jensen5993
Regarding 3 points.
Casters can be uber powerful.
Wall of stone, synaesthesia, Maze, mass haste, true target, mass slow, are all great spells. First 2 are S tier.
My sorcerer bard tagged the level 24 boss of one adventure and he went down fast.
In Ruby Phoenix my bard could increase party dpr by circa 150% for 1 round with inspire heroics +3, synaesthesia and true target.
My group, of 6, melted level +4 bosses in 1 round.
Fighter is S tier. I've seen a level 20 fighter break 500 single target damage a couple of times.
Level 20 fighter can theoretically get 12 attacks per round vs 4 enemies.
Imo, fighter is too good, and makes barbarian, etc, feel sad.
2. Higher level definitely easier than low levels. At low levels you need to be careful with monsters even 2 levels higher.
3. Combat can get repetitive. But, I can't think of any system where players don't settle into an optimised routine.
Just means the players can play their rounds faster. And mobsters that thwart their usual tactics are more interesting.
Even at level 19 we ended up fleeing some fights, despite being uber optimised.
Sorry, you took the rant too far at the beginning. I guess you've probably got some reactions about this being an RPG and combat is not the focus, and I get that you want to make fun of these guys, but you really lost me. I very much like your earlier videos, like the combat and tactics stuff, but the live streams are so slow and drawn out and there are so many injokes that its hard for a beginner who is also new to the channel to follow. This is not meant to start a fight with the fanboys or anything, just meant as constructive feedback.
The community based streams are definitely not as focused... And long... That's definitely true.
But we've found getting to interact with our community directly (and live) is worth the cons
this dude talks way too much and thinks way too highly of his opinions
I agree!!