I'd like to disagree with 2 points. 1: You should see engine braking as an aditional brake. Depending on the vehicle you might want to shift down as fast as possible to brake harder if the normal brakes don't have enough stopping power to lock up. Also there might be cases where braking with the normal brakes is too much but you still need to shift the weight a little bit to the front, 2. For the most acceleration you want to have the best average power. For the highest average power you want to shift when the power is the same after you upshift. If the power curve is for example 1-(x-1)^2 and upshifting will lose 2a rpm (0
Shifting down as fast as possible: only with sequentials, obviously without hitting the rev limiter, never with an H shifter or you're going to lock the tires and spin, unless if you have the heel&toe/rev matching technique properly down.
I'll give you a thumbs up just for the amount of shit you typed. I make long comments all the time and typically delete them before posting because I quickly lose interest in anyone caring.
But that happens when the power band invades the red zone. The point of his argument is to check where the power band is instead of always going for the red line or into the red zone just because it's easier to get used to
some cars have high torque and you may be ok with shifting below the redline depending on where you are on the track however I don’t see the point for the engine manufacturer to set up a redline higher than the limit for maximum acceleration. You would rev it up for no benefit.
Yeah it definitely depends on tuning, mostly only for forced induction cars as they have vastly different power bands, I have an A5 3.0 TDI and i’ve done my absolute best to push boost as high as possible. But it is a diesel, naturally it does not want to rev high and you can feel the torque and power drop after 4200rpms, regardless of this it is still marginally faster to continue toward the max rpm (4760) instead of upshifting at 4200. I also have an Mx 5 NA with 1.6 na motor, it runs out of breath at 7000rpm, but yet again my results have shown it is still faster to continue to 7500rpm instead of upshifting at 7000. I guess the lesson here is that if you are trying to go fast on a track it’s not a bad idea to push toward the max rpm for MOST cars.
Wrong. In any car in assetto corsa specifically, the fastest way to gain straightline speed is to flat shift at redline. The game is just built this way.
It’s crazy watching your driving and editing improve with each video. Getting to become a better driver with you actively is such a cool experience as you seem to hit all the notes I’m struggling on as I’m wanting to tackle them.
@@TSRB these videos are awesome! But I must ask, is there going to be any content for those who use paddle shifters instead? I miss having the 3 pedals but I must make due with an automatic transmission that has a manual mode
You got the maximum acceleration part a little wrong. Here’s what you wanna do guys: At 2:39 you see the dyno table of the ae86 right? You don’t wanna be between the power and torque peak. You wanna shift this window to where ON AVERAGE the red graph is the highest, in the ae86 stocks case around 5200-7200. Power drops off past 6500, but stays at a higher level than anything below 5200 and thus you’re a little quicker. I assure you, given same launch and shift times you’d beat TSRB doing this.
@@marcos1669 the best way I can explain it is “horsepower is what your gearing does to torque” If you got 200nm at 3000rpm and 100nm at 6000rpm, that’s 85hp for both these engine speeds. If you have a gearbox that drops you from 6000 to 3000, you will have identical wheel torque between these gears and thus, the same acceleration. That’s why you wanna average around the highest power, not shift AT peak power
@@raptorjeezus2607 Yeah, that's right. Really what you want is the area under the power curve maximized between the two rpm points: Upshift rpm and the rpm it lands at after it's shifted. Torque peak rpm is irrelevant like you said. Generally with a racing engine that means shifting at or very close to red line the way people generally tend to do anyway.
Playing drag racing games really teaches you how to upshift properly. It's kind of an earlier shift in lower gears and gets later and later the higher your gear is. It always depends on the engine though so that's why you must know the engine curve
When it comes to when to shift, the torque band doesn't matter at all, the only thing is staying in as high average power as possible. I ran a test with the Kunos 458 gt2, which has a redline much higher than it needs to be. Peak power is at 6500 rpm and peak torque is at 5500 rpm. The power drops off pretty severely at 7k rpm, but you should still shift around 7350 rpm. I ran a 1km drag test, once shifting at peak power, at 6500 rpm, and to prove a point, still unoptimally shifting at 7500 rpm. The 6500 rpm run was 20.80, and the 7500 rpm run was 20.65, ideally you should be shifting between 7250 and 7000 rpm as a said, but even going way after the power and torque drop, it's still faster to shift late simply because the average power across the rev range is higher. But I did run it shifting around 7350 and ran a 20.44 In the 86 example, you want to rev it all the way out because the power climb is slow enough that even with a slight drop it's still higher average power to rev it out all the way. In theory, torque is just as important to shifting as revs, because they are equals, torque is how much work an engine does per revolution, and every revolution multiplies that. Power is the only metric you should base when you shift on, and it's as simple as average power is highest if I shift here, which is almost always redline, so that's where you should shift.
Peak torque is irrelevant for acceleration. You want the average power between shifts to be maximized - in other words to maximize the area under the (power) curve that you're using. This requires shifting past the point of maximum power, or at redline if power peaks there. In most cars shifting at redline maximizes power, but in some it does fall off rapidly enough that shifting earlier is better. You'd still shift somewhat beyond the point of peak power though; how much depends on the shape of the power curve.
Ok, I'm a little confused now. If I understand correctly, peak torque is where maximum acceleration in a specific gear happens. Isn't that what a driver should aim for? From what I got out of the video, alternating between maximum acceleration and maximum power is the way to go. EDIT: The more I think about it, shifting at the highest average power seems to be more useful. In which case, should the driver stick to max torque when needing to accelerate in a specific gear and then when they need to go faster, get close to redline and then shift? EDIT 2: After about a few days of thinking, I realized that the HP/Torque graphs are given with respect to RPM, not time. The torque produced is only a figure good enough if you want to move heavy things because time isn't taken into as much account. Likewise, hp produced is only a figure good enough if you want to go fast because it actually gives you an output with respect to time. tl;dr: Max Torque tells you how much work can be done without telling you how much time it takes. Max HP tells you have much works gets done in an instant at whichever rpm you're at.
@@epicm999 "If I understand correctly, peak torque is where maximum acceleration in a specific gear happens" Nope, peak power is where maximum acceleration happens. Power = torque * rpm, which means you don't actually care about torque when racing. You only care about RPM, and only as a guideline, because it tells you where power is maximized.
@@lucidcortex8444 no engineer worth their salt would contradict anything OP said. As a pilot you don't care about torque, you care about having the maximum average power when shifting. As an engineer you care about torque enough so that it gets you the power you want.
I'm curious to see how much of a difference shifting at peak hp and redline does. I figured the torque multiplication at lower gears would be more advantageous than engine characteristics, unless the torque just drops off a cliff. I'd like to see a video analyzing the acceleration time difference.
Since horsepower is a function of RPMxTorque, once the horsepower drops off, that's also when torque significantly drops off. So basically that's the right point to shift up. If you want to get technical, you can draw the output torque for all gears and RPM ranges over speed - it probably does mean it's better to rev the tits off in lower gears but upshift sooner in higher gears.
You want to shift at point past peak power where you haven't lost a significant amount of power, but it will put you relatively close to peak power in the next gear. When I set gearing in a given racing game, I try and set 1st and 2nd gear to suit a good launch and hairpin exit. Every other gear is close and keeps me within 5-10% of peak power the whole time, if possible. Peakier engines may not support that, though, so it's a matter of 'damage limitation' from shifting as far as picking gearing and shift points goes. It's not as bad to rev an engine out to redline in the lower gears, even somewhat past peak power, because you're wasting less time shifting multiple times at a point where that matters, and the air resistance is lower at lower speeds, so the hit from briefly having less power to accelerate with shouldn't be as bad.
the best shift point for acceleration is when pre-shift power and after-shift power are equal. if you're shifting earlier you're missing on power in the next gear, if you're shifting later you're missing on power in the current gear.
@Stanisław Zieliński Depending on the shape of the power curve, yes. That's why I mentioned that peakier engines need a compromise with gearing, unless you have many, many gears to throw at keeping something like a small, highly tuned, NA engine in that sweet spot. Otherwise, after a shift, you're going to have to climb the hill again. Flatter power curves allow you to always be near the top of the hill, providing faster acceleration with less sensitivity to gearing closeness.
Sometimes when you aren't ready for the 1-2 shift you over rev it and you see the g meter drop off. Compare that to a pass where you nailed it you see the time being lost. Also granny shifting a turbo car dumps boost between gears which is not ideal haha
the problem here is literally no one ive seen on this comment section or in the video take into account the difference in ratio between the gears, it is almost always beneficial to take the car at or near the redline before changing up simply because the gear you are in is more efficient at delivering the power to the wheels (cars with extreme power drop off near redline are the exception), its also the same reason cars with extremely short gears accelerate rapidly (rally cars for example)
I think that the engine braking is debatable. It could help with front-heavy fwd cars and make them rotate easier since only the front wheels are braking.
He's completely wrong about engine braking. It's a vital part of slowing a car down. The only IRL instances of block changing (where you either skip gears or wait until just before turn in to downshift) are from the late 80s Group C and F1. This only happened because the cars slowed down quicker than the drivers could change down, and even then, they'd carefully choose the gears, say 6th 4th and 2nd, so that they could maximise engine braking.
@@davestopforthAgreed, hop in any racing game and pick an F1 car. Try braking without downshifting and then try braking while downshifting and you’ll notice a huge difference in braking distance.
2:42 No, not true, you want the engine's revs to sweep through peak power, you want to use the most amount of horsepower, not torque. Torque is just a number, horsepower actually represents the energy created by consuming fuel's ability to create forward motion. If I simply put a reduction gearbox on an engine, it makes more torque, but obviously the car will not be faster. You want to sweep peak horsepower for maximum acceleration, or ideally have a CVT that holds it at peak horsepower. Now in real life you have to concern yourself with blowing an engine revving the nuts off it like this, but in a sim, fucking rev that thing. Unless you're in BeamNG which has the most absolutely uncharitable power curves with torque and horsepower severely and unrealistically falling off before redline.
Yes, keeping the momentum on the right trajectory through the corner is more beneficial. Instead of downshifting before and upshifting after the corner, sometimes is way better to just stay on the gear, trailbrake onto the apex and than progresively accelerate while easing the steering wheel to the straight line. When i was playing racing games, i ended up with trying to always stay at highest gear possible through the given corner. It is always tied to the torque characteristic of given car. If i get into the "thrust" revs immidetaly after the corner on the higher gear, i didn't wasted the momentum and time on unnecessary downshift. It's a matter of constant experimenting while you "polish" the lap. There is no ready to use formula, everybody must experiment and push himself over the limit to achive new abilities.
That doesn't apply to every corner though and also heavily dependent on the racing line used but I agree for shallow corners this is what you want to do while not over driving the car
I've been watching all of your videos and i can't thank you enough for the tips, i've seen a pretty noticeable improvement in my driving since, i can't believe your channel isn't bigger!
Rev matching is matching engine rpm with the transmission rpm. Yes the transmission is connected to the wheels but different gears require almost the same engine rpm for a downshit. The wheels will have varying speeds.
I remember watching you a year and a half ago and just found this channel again and i can say that I'm not disappointed, the quality got so much higher..
2:38 is incorrect, the best time to shift is what gives you the best power over rpm range. You can figure it out by doing a surface area calculation on the graph. According to the info, you would need to rev that engine out to 8100 for maximum performance.
@@TSRB And that is why typically it's best to just shift at the redline like everyone does instinctively: It generally comes before the optimum shift point to maximize area under the power curve between the two rpm points.
@@TSRBand your graph show rpm limiter at 8,5 k rpm +/- and ypu said each ups mean rpm drop be 1800rpm (what in fact probabaly isint true as welll as basicallly each csr which i check have smaller and smaller difrencess between gear leanght as gear is higher and higher 😉 but let assume this what yous aid that eafh time rom drop be 1,8 k rom is true 👌🏻) menaehile on graph ypu show less rpm drop what is this 💩🤷🏻♂️
You can rev up during a braking phase during downshift to cancel bad balance from downshift. While youre trail braking, works just fine. Thats called talon pointe in french
Honestly, for optimal shifting points as rule of thumb just check (available in most sims) longitudinal g force, you want g force to stay as close as possible before and after the shift (and overall as high as possible), mind that not every car can be perfectly matched, but try to keep it as close as possible
@@TheGreatTomDix it's easier if you have MoteC (cause it logs data over a whole period) but basically, you want to have the same g force (acceleration) before and after you upshift, or as close to it because it's not always possible to perfectly even it out, if you shift and g's get lower you're upshifting too early, if you shift and g's go higher you're upshifting too late, just run a couple times for testing with g meter on or recording with motec, find the optimal rpm and shift based on that, if you use motec you'd want the longitudinal g force line as smooth as possible, this is, without jumps or as small jumps as possible
Thanks, mate. Once again, this was very helpful. In my journey it feels like one step forward two steps back. I practice a new technique or theory so much, wrapping my mind around a new concept, drilling it repeatedly until I find that I have omitted or forgotten previous skills. Of course I'm sure if I reviewed my old driving footage I would see that I have improved markedly since then. The Dunning-Kruger effect is true for both positive and negative self-assessment, for me anyway. 🥂
Hey homie, just keep going and trying. Sim racing in my limited experience is harder then irl, get down to a track day or an autocross irl when you can and you’ll see your likely way more skilled then you realise. Sim racing is just as hard as irl and you loose things like depth perception and car feel and sense of speed, so it’s actually a lot harder. If youre hitting a wall with something on the game either just keep playing till you win or try irl. As long as you’re keeping close to your best time, or beating it, you’re doing great. You’re not always gonna beat your best time other wise you’d already be driving f1 so just try and have fun and you’ll get better as time goes forward. Try stop focus on just ups killing and start trying to focus on fun. Maybe even switch up discipline. If you’re grip, run drift for a bit. If your drift, run grip. You could try gravel rally or something. If you have a go at all the disciplines it’ll have a massive impact on your skill level in your own discipline.
I'm nothing when it comes to sim racing, i just play for fun. But I've learnt that trail braking and shifting a Lil early before exiting the corner(not applicable on each car) is one of the fastest way to be fast. Also, shifting down like too quickly or slow also makes a difference. Few cars need over revving and few short shifting. Every car is different.
I’ve been using heel and toe downshifting for a few years and I thought I understood the process, but now I’m unsure of the order of operations. I’ve always done Brake, Clutch in, Blip throttle, Shift down, Clutch out. Is it better to blip and then shift down (like I do) or shift down first and then blip?
So I'm a self taught Forza Motorsport driver and got the wheel when 2 released and over the last 17 years with being able to drive the same cars on the same tracks consistently I have developed the driving style you have detailed here...makes me feel pretty good knowing that I was able to come to that determination myself and you sharing it with everyone is just going to make the field of competition that much more fun and interesting.
Couple things I feel need correction: 1. The old adage that you want to maximize work that your engine does, and to do that, over time, you need to maximize power. This is where the expression "area under the curve" is relevant. Each of your shift points should focus on maximizing the area under the power curve, which inevitably means, you need to shift slightly after peak power. Torque is important, but to convert torque to power, there is another factor that's missing, which is rpm. You can produce more power at lower torque values just by spinning the engine faster and applying less torque more times per minute. 2. Heel-toe shifting. This is more of a fine detail critique. If you have the ankle mobility for it, it is better to pivot the heel around the metatarsals of the bottom of your feet, rather than rolling over. This allows for more precise control of braking pressure as the rotation around the metatarsal less affects the braking pressure compared to rolling off of it. In a sim rig, not as important compared to when driving a real car. If your physical ankle mobility is limited such that you can only execute the roll onto the throttle comfortably, then by all means, do it because it's better than nothing, but if you can rotate around the metatarsal, do that instead of being lazy and rolling onto the throttle.
It helps a LOT if you can adjust your pedals to be close to eachother. It's how it is in most cars in real life anyway.I don't understand why some gaming hardware manufacturers make pedals so far apart.
How do you keep the brake pressure constant when heel-and-toeing? I find that when I pivot my foot to blip the throttle I end up putting some more pressure on the brakes which is especially not fun when I'm in a car without ABS lol
Practice, and maybe pedal position. You can see in the vid my brake is too far from my throttle so i can't help but lift off the brakes slightly when blipping. Maybe yours is too close?
If you try to do it the anime way or if you have small feet usually your gonna have a bad time. When heel toe shifting in real life, unless the particular car has pedals that are really far apart, I usually just push the brake with the left half of my foot, and then hover the right half of my foot over the gas. Most cars have a lower gas pedal then a brake pedal to avoid pressing the gas in a panic situation, but here we can use it to our advantage. By doing this, you end up with your brake and gas almost level with each other while braking, and then you can just roll the right side of your foot slightly to hit the gas. Makes things much easier.
@@parthiv2013 i also got the g920 stock pedals though i did get rid of that rubber bit in the brake pedal, and yeah its just practice to keep consistent braking while blipping the gas.
I disagree in regards to using the engine for decel. It can really shorten your braking distances and also provide rotation when needed. If you are unsettling the car or having trouble on corner entry then i do agree you need to do something different. Check out my entry into the final turn at laguna seca in my 1:36.266 lap video for an example. The coefficient of friction on road tires tends to peak more gradually and fall off more gradually and so cab be more forgiving. So trading a little grip for rotation can be worth it sometimes.
I dont get the point TSRB is trying to make by telling people to not "engine brake", it's perfectly fine and even desirable to let off the throttle for a corner you dont need to brake for, every time you brake there's engine braking so if you wanna eliminate that out of the question just clutch in to disengage the engine lol. it cant possibly make you slower unless you're letting off the throttle 100m before braking
The point i was trying to make is you shouldn't downshift before braking. Engine braking whilst braking is inevitable, but slower drivers use engine braking solely to slow the car, which shouldn't be done.
@@TSRB In the video you said engine breaking is bad, and I was scratching my head wondering why. Now you say engine breaking is good if you combine it with normal breaking (which sounds pretty obvious imo, if someone wants to break as much as possible, you use the 2 breaking types, not just one). If this was rage bait, this video works wonderfully. If this wanted to be educational, it failed terribly
I used to think my RX-7 wanted to kill me. I still think that my RX-7 wants to kill me, but now I know that I was giving it extra encouragement. Thank you.
In addition to what’s already been said: Apart from staying in revs longer for higher average hp, you will also be in a shorter ratio gear and therefore accelerating quicker. More whp is a way of thinking of it.
I'm not sure if any SIM racing setups do this, but in real life some rally drivers sometimes skip the clutch to use left foot braking while changing gear. The gearbox will come out of gear when you put a little bit of pressure towards the neutral position and lift your foot off the accelerator. If you line up the next gear (on upshift) and put a bit of pressure towards the gear, the synchros will keep it out of gear until the revs match, then let the gear slip in. On downshift you need to accelerate past the rev match point and then release the accelerator while putting that pressure on the gear lever. You can try this in your own manual car. Some work better than others. I've tried it in my Fiat Uno and in my Alfa 156. Team O'Neill Rally school did a fantastic video on it a few years ago. Search 'clutchless Team O'Neill'. It's quite a good skill to have if you need to get a car with a broken clutch cable home.
@@blutygergaming8789 Thanks! The wiki page on that seems to describe it well. I don't quite understand what would prevent a non-synchro gearbox from grating when "gently push the gear stick toward the chosen higher gear" while waiting for the speed of the engine and gearbox to match.
@@ThisRandomUsername You just don't hold it there to wait. My grandpa's 1995 Peterbilt 18 speed doesn't have synchros. You just keep the revs where they need to be, and real quick pop it into place. No shoving or waiting. Just push out, pull your foot back a sec, and push it into the next gear and get back on the gas.
In a RWD car, you can actually use engine braking from downshifting using the clutch the modulate to cause more braking force at the rear wheels..this takes a ton of skill even in a straight line but can definitely decrease your stopping distance if done right, of course this is dependent on other things like brake bias, tires, etc but it's basically a way to semi modulate brake bias using the clutch and engine braking and if attempting to do this in a corner, you're more likely to just upset things, I never experimented much with turning but to get you slowed down on a tight corner before rotation if you don't have enough rear brake bias, it can definitely help.
Sadly I play on a Controller so I will can't do the perfect downshifting, but the upshift was basically confirming what I thought. On GT7 I noticed the Alfa Romeo Giulia actually tells on the dash to change the gear before even reaching 6k rpm if I'm not wrong, and that actually keeps on the power band after I did laps changing gears on the car recommendation and redlining. But the downshift are the hardest thing for it. Anyways, thanks for the useful information!
Heel-Toe shifting is impossible in my Focus ST so I just do toe-toe shifting lol. I twist my right food inward and use the side of my foot to blip the gas while barely having a single toe on the brake pedal
It’s about learning your vehicle and how it handles on different surfaces and weather. You drive them all pretty different depending on driveline and weight so this sounds like something I’d show my kid who’s just learning to drive if I didn’t know how to drive and thought this would do good
Downshifting is not just for optimal acceleration, a drivers job is to control the weight of the vehicle, downshifting shifts the weight foward and compresses the front tire for increased grip during cornering.
Shifting Is important but it isn’t the end all be all to turns, (RWD as an example) braking hard while going straight and progressively releasing brakes more as you turn and applying throttle will help with getting the vehicle to rotate through the turn a lot quicker. Almost like shock loading your front brakes and using the weight shift to let your rear wheels float over. Be mindful of oversteer as well.
For this 86 with its torque curve, shouldnt you shift at max rpm so that when u upshift, you wont start at such a low power band? I mean sure the engine torque is lower but the power going through the driveshaft will be more, and power is torque x speed, isnt power whats important since u have gears anyway?
By ur suggestion of shifting at 6.5k, we would hit 130 hp then drop down to ~100hp and climb back ip to 120hp. If we shift at the top of rpm, we would shift out at a lower hp but the lower gear ratio would still be better for accelerating, and when we upshift l, we would be near 120hp, then climb up to 130hp and down again at the redline
@@TSRB it's gearing dependent. So let's say 2nd gear is a ratio of 3:1 and 3rd is 2:1. So let's say a car makes 100 ft-lbs of torque at 5000rpm and 75ft-lbs at 7000. Because of the gear multiplier the car will be outputting 225ft-lbs to the driveshaft in 2nd gear (75x3) at 7000 rpm. When you shift and you're at 5000 RPM in 3rd gear the output to the driveshaft will be 200 ft-lbs (2x100) so far will be accelerating slower even though it's in the meatier part of the powerband. Majority of cars on stock gear ratios transmission will achieve maximum acceleration by shifting at redline. Especially when the gears are fairly spaced out. There's more factors to it but gear ratios can't really be ignored when trying to figure this out. There is online calculators which will calculate optimal shift points in each gear if you have a cars dynograph.
very interesting video, your take on upshifting is often overlooked as people rev it out to the max without using the peak power the car generates. I am a little skeptic about upshifting before a turn, as if you keep rpms higher through a turn it lets you carry more speed (for rwd) as the engine breaking helps with your trailbraking without affecting your speed a lot . I wonder if it gains you enough time to compensate for the upshift penalty after the turn tho. Maybe you can test it out in another video. nice content as always.
lower gears have more torque so its better to stay in a lower gear longer. Just rev it out, shift just before the limiter. The toyota engineers set to the limiter to 7000 for a reason...
2:23 Sorry but this is wrong. There isn't always a change of 1800rpm between gears it actually increases with rpm. Also you want to change so you maximise power. This means you probably want to go up to redline as the power in the next gear will be increased. Try a drag race if you don't believe me.
I'm getting back into manual transmission setup, and i was trying double clutch+heel toeing at the same time. No wonder i got stressed on corner entry 😂
With heel and toe downchange, should you not release the clutch on neutral? Clutch down, gear out, clutch up, blip the gas pedal to spin up gearbox, clutch down , low gear in, clutch up and gas!
Yes I know that shifting earlier maybe faster in some cars and improve lap times but it's just more satisfying to use every single RPM until 1 RPM before the rev limiter😂
Excuse me, but isn't rev matching done in neutral with clutch lifted up? I had car with broken synchrones and the purpose of rev matching while downshifting was put in neutral, lift clutch up, rev it in neutral fast to spin gearbox and synchronize it exactly how much revs car will have downshifted and downshift it. While upshifting you do the same, but except reving it, you let engine and gearbox rpm drop to synchronise. Also if you do it on real car right, gear falls in lot smoother. What's your opinion now? Plz let me know
Look at the video of engineering explained where he explains that even though going higher up in revs you might drop some engine torque but it might still be favorable since you will get quite a mechanical disadvantage from the higher gear ratio
I use engine braking whenever I want to induce oversteering, and thus improve my rotation through the corner of car that understeer too much. A car that rotates better and faster, takes the corner first.
Left foot braking gang sound off! Seriously I can't do the heal and toe chicanery to save my life, but I got really good at shifting without the clutch.
it depends on the car, but what he said is wrong, you want the highest average power for whatever gear you're in, if the power is fairly flat at the top, and slightly drops off, you are much better off than if you ride the power as it grows, torque is just as arbitrary as rpm, the torque curve should not change where you shift at all, the only thing that matters is power, torque * rpm = power. In many racecars, especially endurance racecars that have big restrictors and lower redlines than most, you have to find the right area to shift, typically it's always redline, but sometimes, like with the ac 458 gt2 for example, it's not quite at the redline because power drops off too much. The 86 he was driving you absolutely need to rev all the way to redline
4:15 lol ever heard about Gilles Panizzi? I can assure you that when it come to the clock time nothing matters... heel and toe, beautiful oversteering style, ugly understeer style, clean, dirt... nothing matters when you can shave a lot of time compare to others guys. However heel and toe is good to have a "feel" for the rythm of the speed and preserve mechanical aspect of the car.
It might come to a surprise to you, but I actually shift up, when in a tight situation. What this gives to me, is more reliable torque & reaction time.
Depends on if its rear or front wheel drive to be honest in a rear wheel I nose dive into the curve hard inside as I'm coming into I bring it down to speed and Start fading on it and let the weight of the car bring me back into my lane front wheel I start down shifting with my brake and my pulling gear comes in half way through the curve and the weight off the rear end will seem light but you wait till the front starts to pull tap the brake once or twice and let it pull you back into your lane gradually
Do you think its alright if you're reaching the end of a straight and you're in high gear, so you keep it in high gear thru the turn, but then you downshift a few times so the gears can get a bite on the wheels again?
It's always better to do before you turn in to make the corner also helps stabilize the car for the corner and staying in one gear in the corner using the power band of that gear then up shifting when the time comes outside of the corner all while not losing momentum.
0:12 The statement in essence wrong, the engine brake improves braking performance and is therefore a useful tool to improve lap time. The only way not to use the engine brake is to press the clutch for the entire braking zone. You also use the engine brake when you are Rev Matching. All other points in the video are correct and well explained :)
The point i was trying to make is you shouldn't downshift before braking. Engine braking whilst braking is inevitable, but slower drivers use engine braking solely to slow the car, which shouldn't be done.
you will find heel and toe allot easier if you spin your foot rather than roll it. try hit the gas with the heal/underside of your foot. rolling your foot under g force is allot harder to control. i know this is a sim rig but the motion itself is better controlled if done with the bottom of your foot.
Also depends what you are racing, most race cars have transmissions or transaxles where you dont need the clutch unless you are stopped and need to get going and then you are left foot braking and blimping the throttle with the right foot. Nascar and indy don't use the clutch when down or uo shifting, im not sure but i dont thunk f1 does either any more. Been like tthat for 10 years or more
i play your videos while i sleep, i'm too lazy to learn, so i hope that the information gets absorbed in my mind while i'm sleeping, and then i will wake up a better racing driver
ok mate, you look crazy enough to think about this question that has been around my mind for a while... what about downshifting without heel and toe.... using the initial spin to turn the car around the corners? if you think this is some bullcrap look for gilles panizzi driving the lancer evo against some best motoring drivers and also on touge, the guy literally got the fastest lap without heel and toe, so what do you think about that?
the track and "the streets" are quite literally the same in a simulator. The driving style does not change, and should be entirely based on rotating the car properly, neutral steering if applicable, and by extension riding the limit of the tires.
![Seungmin "그렇게, 천천히, 우리(As we are)" | [Stray Kids : SKZ-PLAYER]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kAzmhLHePqU/mqdefault.jpg)
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i know its for the promo, but all top gear is on iplayer ;)
@TSRB can we have the download link to that red Impreza you use in your videos sometimes
PSA to all future viewers, this VPN and all of its claims are 100% fake. Same with most VPNs. They do absolutely nothing to protect you online.
I'd like to disagree with 2 points. 1: You should see engine braking as an aditional brake. Depending on the vehicle you might want to shift down as fast as possible to brake harder if the normal brakes don't have enough stopping power to lock up. Also there might be cases where braking with the normal brakes is too much but you still need to shift the weight a little bit to the front, 2. For the most acceleration you want to have the best average power. For the highest average power you want to shift when the power is the same after you upshift. If the power curve is for example 1-(x-1)^2 and upshifting will lose 2a rpm (0
Shifting down as fast as possible: only with sequentials, obviously without hitting the rev limiter, never with an H shifter or you're going to lock the tires and spin, unless if you have the heel&toe/rev matching technique properly down.
@@Haltzo thats basically shift lock drifting
@@Haltzo and that's if the engine doesn't die
@@johjoh9270 and the clutch holds lol. I use shift lock around hairpins on touges sometimes in the sim. Makes it fun
I'll give you a thumbs up just for the amount of shit you typed. I make long comments all the time and typically delete them before posting because I quickly lose interest in anyone caring.
The optimal shift depends on the tuning of the car. Some cars are best shifted at redline, especially with long gear ratios.
But that happens when the power band invades the red zone.
The point of his argument is to check where the power band is instead of always going for the red line or into the red zone just because it's easier to get used to
How come you think that it shows you have never driven a real car. That’s 💩
some cars have high torque and you may be ok with shifting below the redline depending on where you are on the track however I don’t see the point for the engine manufacturer to set up a redline higher than the limit for maximum acceleration. You would rev it up for no benefit.
Yeah it definitely depends on tuning, mostly only for forced induction cars as they have vastly different power bands, I have an A5 3.0 TDI and i’ve done my absolute best to push boost as high as possible. But it is a diesel, naturally it does not want to rev high and you can feel the torque and power drop after 4200rpms, regardless of this it is still marginally faster to continue toward the max rpm (4760) instead of upshifting at 4200. I also have an Mx 5 NA with 1.6 na motor, it runs out of breath at 7000rpm, but yet again my results have shown it is still faster to continue to 7500rpm instead of upshifting at 7000. I guess the lesson here is that if you are trying to go fast on a track it’s not a bad idea to push toward the max rpm for MOST cars.
Wrong. In any car in assetto corsa specifically, the fastest way to gain straightline speed is to flat shift at redline. The game is just built this way.
It’s crazy watching your driving and editing improve with each video. Getting to become a better driver with you actively is such a cool experience as you seem to hit all the notes I’m struggling on as I’m wanting to tackle them.
My driving is getting worse lmao, but i appreciate it
seriously bro this guy deserves to have an actual online school he’s something else
@@TSRB pahahaha
@@TSRB these videos are awesome! But I must ask, is there going to be any content for those who use paddle shifters instead? I miss having the 3 pedals but I must make due with an automatic transmission that has a manual mode
Because of initial d, I always heel toe downshift coming up to a corner on instinct because it feels cool.
the engine roar is all worth it
@@NerdyCatCoffeeeealso keeps the suspension compliant.
Doesnt work on all pedal configs... I had to do right side of the foot left side of the foot in an e36
You got the maximum acceleration part a little wrong. Here’s what you wanna do guys:
At 2:39 you see the dyno table of the ae86 right? You don’t wanna be between the power and torque peak. You wanna shift this window to where ON AVERAGE the red graph is the highest, in the ae86 stocks case around 5200-7200. Power drops off past 6500, but stays at a higher level than anything below 5200 and thus you’re a little quicker.
I assure you, given same launch and shift times you’d beat TSRB doing this.
People seem to have a really big issue trying to understand what Torque an Horsepower are
@@marcos1669 the best way I can explain it is “horsepower is what your gearing does to torque”
If you got 200nm at 3000rpm and 100nm at 6000rpm, that’s 85hp for both these engine speeds.
If you have a gearbox that drops you from 6000 to 3000, you will have identical wheel torque between these gears and thus, the same acceleration.
That’s why you wanna average around the highest power, not shift AT peak power
@@raptorjeezus2607 Yeah, that's right. Really what you want is the area under the power curve maximized between the two rpm points: Upshift rpm and the rpm it lands at after it's shifted. Torque peak rpm is irrelevant like you said. Generally with a racing engine that means shifting at or very close to red line the way people generally tend to do anyway.
@@marcos1669 yeah, I don't understand a single unit that is being discussed or what torque is
@@umrasangus you’re here, googles surely not out of reach yeah?
A 4 minute video starts at 2:14 minutes. RUclips is getting ridiculous.
Thank you for saving my time
So dumb
i downvoted the vid for exactly this reason
Crazy he uploaded this and it’s the only decent views he has from click baiting people
@@proportion11just did too
Playing drag racing games really teaches you how to upshift properly. It's kind of an earlier shift in lower gears and gets later and later the higher your gear is. It always depends on the engine though so that's why you must know the engine curve
Have you played racingmaybe? Highly recommended
What good drag racing sims are there? Would love to learn what it's actually like to drag race hot rods
When it comes to when to shift, the torque band doesn't matter at all, the only thing is staying in as high average power as possible.
I ran a test with the Kunos 458 gt2, which has a redline much higher than it needs to be. Peak power is at 6500 rpm and peak torque is at 5500 rpm. The power drops off pretty severely at 7k rpm, but you should still shift around 7350 rpm. I ran a 1km drag test, once shifting at peak power, at 6500 rpm, and to prove a point, still unoptimally shifting at 7500 rpm.
The 6500 rpm run was 20.80, and the 7500 rpm run was 20.65, ideally you should be shifting between 7250 and 7000 rpm as a said, but even going way after the power and torque drop, it's still faster to shift late simply because the average power across the rev range is higher. But I did run it shifting around 7350 and ran a 20.44
In the 86 example, you want to rev it all the way out because the power climb is slow enough that even with a slight drop it's still higher average power to rev it out all the way.
In theory, torque is just as important to shifting as revs, because they are equals, torque is how much work an engine does per revolution, and every revolution multiplies that. Power is the only metric you should base when you shift on, and it's as simple as average power is highest if I shift here, which is almost always redline, so that's where you should shift.
You simply have to find the RPMs where you get the same power before and after upshifting (if you have a power band with roughly a single maximum)
Fuck finally someone who gets it
this..
Torque band absolutely matters. Ask any engineer.
@@wills.5762 He doesn't get it though
If I don't downshift my rx8, the engine will lug and understeer.
Peak torque is irrelevant for acceleration. You want the average power between shifts to be maximized - in other words to maximize the area under the (power) curve that you're using. This requires shifting past the point of maximum power, or at redline if power peaks there. In most cars shifting at redline maximizes power, but in some it does fall off rapidly enough that shifting earlier is better. You'd still shift somewhat beyond the point of peak power though; how much depends on the shape of the power curve.
Amen.
Ok, I'm a little confused now. If I understand correctly, peak torque is where maximum acceleration in a specific gear happens. Isn't that what a driver should aim for?
From what I got out of the video, alternating between maximum acceleration and maximum power is the way to go.
EDIT: The more I think about it, shifting at the highest average power seems to be more useful. In which case, should the driver stick to max torque when needing to accelerate in a specific gear and then when they need to go faster, get close to redline and then shift?
EDIT 2: After about a few days of thinking, I realized that the HP/Torque graphs are given with respect to RPM, not time. The torque produced is only a figure good enough if you want to move heavy things because time isn't taken into as much account. Likewise, hp produced is only a figure good enough if you want to go fast because it actually gives you an output with respect to time.
tl;dr: Max Torque tells you how much work can be done without telling you how much time it takes. Max HP tells you have much works gets done in an instant at whichever rpm you're at.
Pretty sure that engineers would disagree with you.
@@epicm999 "If I understand correctly, peak torque is where maximum acceleration in a specific gear happens"
Nope, peak power is where maximum acceleration happens.
Power = torque * rpm, which means you don't actually care about torque when racing. You only care about RPM, and only as a guideline, because it tells you where power is maximized.
@@lucidcortex8444 no engineer worth their salt would contradict anything OP said. As a pilot you don't care about torque, you care about having the maximum average power when shifting. As an engineer you care about torque enough so that it gets you the power you want.
I'm curious to see how much of a difference shifting at peak hp and redline does. I figured the torque multiplication at lower gears would be more advantageous than engine characteristics, unless the torque just drops off a cliff. I'd like to see a video analyzing the acceleration time difference.
Since horsepower is a function of RPMxTorque, once the horsepower drops off, that's also when torque significantly drops off. So basically that's the right point to shift up.
If you want to get technical, you can draw the output torque for all gears and RPM ranges over speed - it probably does mean it's better to rev the tits off in lower gears but upshift sooner in higher gears.
You want to shift at point past peak power where you haven't lost a significant amount of power, but it will put you relatively close to peak power in the next gear. When I set gearing in a given racing game, I try and set 1st and 2nd gear to suit a good launch and hairpin exit. Every other gear is close and keeps me within 5-10% of peak power the whole time, if possible. Peakier engines may not support that, though, so it's a matter of 'damage limitation' from shifting as far as picking gearing and shift points goes.
It's not as bad to rev an engine out to redline in the lower gears, even somewhat past peak power, because you're wasting less time shifting multiple times at a point where that matters, and the air resistance is lower at lower speeds, so the hit from briefly having less power to accelerate with shouldn't be as bad.
the best shift point for acceleration is when pre-shift power and after-shift power are equal. if you're shifting earlier you're missing on power in the next gear, if you're shifting later you're missing on power in the current gear.
@Stanisław Zieliński Depending on the shape of the power curve, yes. That's why I mentioned that peakier engines need a compromise with gearing, unless you have many, many gears to throw at keeping something like a small, highly tuned, NA engine in that sweet spot. Otherwise, after a shift, you're going to have to climb the hill again. Flatter power curves allow you to always be near the top of the hill, providing faster acceleration with less sensitivity to gearing closeness.
Sometimes when you aren't ready for the 1-2 shift you over rev it and you see the g meter drop off. Compare that to a pass where you nailed it you see the time being lost. Also granny shifting a turbo car dumps boost between gears which is not ideal haha
the problem here is literally no one ive seen on this comment section or in the video take into account the difference in ratio between the gears, it is almost always beneficial to take the car at or near the redline before changing up simply because the gear you are in is more efficient at delivering the power to the wheels (cars with extreme power drop off near redline are the exception), its also the same reason cars with extremely short gears accelerate rapidly (rally cars for example)
I think that the engine braking is debatable. It could help with front-heavy fwd cars and make them rotate easier since only the front wheels are braking.
Left foot braking doing that thing for u way more precisely
He's completely wrong about engine braking. It's a vital part of slowing a car down. The only IRL instances of block changing (where you either skip gears or wait until just before turn in to downshift) are from the late 80s Group C and F1. This only happened because the cars slowed down quicker than the drivers could change down, and even then, they'd carefully choose the gears, say 6th 4th and 2nd, so that they could maximise engine braking.
@@davestopforthAgreed, hop in any racing game and pick an F1 car. Try braking without downshifting and then try braking while downshifting and you’ll notice a huge difference in braking distance.
Shilling for surfshark is half of this entire video.
What a shame
It be like that
4:10 Takumi: I call this "The Heel & Toe Downshift"
🎉
2:42 No, not true, you want the engine's revs to sweep through peak power, you want to use the most amount of horsepower, not torque. Torque is just a number, horsepower actually represents the energy created by consuming fuel's ability to create forward motion. If I simply put a reduction gearbox on an engine, it makes more torque, but obviously the car will not be faster. You want to sweep peak horsepower for maximum acceleration, or ideally have a CVT that holds it at peak horsepower. Now in real life you have to concern yourself with blowing an engine revving the nuts off it like this, but in a sim, fucking rev that thing. Unless you're in BeamNG which has the most absolutely uncharitable power curves with torque and horsepower severely and unrealistically falling off before redline.
Yes, keeping the momentum on the right trajectory through the corner is more beneficial. Instead of downshifting before and upshifting after the corner, sometimes is way better to just stay on the gear, trailbrake onto the apex and than progresively accelerate while easing the steering wheel to the straight line.
When i was playing racing games, i ended up with trying to always stay at highest gear possible through the given corner. It is always tied to the torque characteristic of given car. If i get into the "thrust" revs immidetaly after the corner on the higher gear, i didn't wasted the momentum and time on unnecessary downshift. It's a matter of constant experimenting while you "polish" the lap. There is no ready to use formula, everybody must experiment and push himself over the limit to achive new abilities.
That doesn't apply to every corner though and also heavily dependent on the racing line used but I agree for shallow corners this is what you want to do while not over driving the car
I've been watching all of your videos and i can't thank you enough for the tips, i've seen a pretty noticeable improvement in my driving since, i can't believe your channel isn't bigger!
Short and informative. Some people would take the same amount of information and pointlessly stretch it out into a 20 min video.
I want to ween off automatic shifting on the new Forza Motorsport and after watching this video I’m more confused than ever. 😅
You can always heel toe by turning you foot the other direction if it’s more comfortable and definitely depending on your pedals.
Rev matching is matching engine rpm with the transmission rpm.
Yes the transmission is connected to the wheels but different gears require almost the same engine rpm for a downshit.
The wheels will have varying speeds.
I remember watching you a year and a half ago and just found this channel again and i can say that I'm not disappointed, the quality got so much higher..
Wait, people try to use engine braking going into a corner? I can't imagine how awful that must have made corner entry, especially on a rwd car.
2:38 is incorrect, the best time to shift is what gives you the best power over rpm range. You can figure it out by doing a surface area calculation on the graph. According to the info, you would need to rev that engine out to 8100 for maximum performance.
it redlines at 7000
@@TSRB And that is why typically it's best to just shift at the redline like everyone does instinctively: It generally comes before the optimum shift point to maximize area under the power curve between the two rpm points.
@@TSRBand your graph show rpm limiter at 8,5 k rpm +/- and ypu said each ups mean rpm drop be 1800rpm (what in fact probabaly isint true as welll as basicallly each csr which i check have smaller and smaller difrencess between gear leanght as gear is higher and higher 😉 but let assume this what yous aid that eafh time rom drop be 1,8 k rom is true 👌🏻) menaehile on graph ypu show less rpm drop what is this 💩🤷🏻♂️
That was the smoothest ad transition I’ve ever heard😂🔥 great vid btw it helped a lot 💯
I unsubscribed so i can subscribe again
You can rev up during a braking phase during downshift to cancel bad balance from downshift. While youre trail braking, works just fine. Thats called talon pointe in french
Even if subconsciously your videos are actually helping me drive better in racing sims, and its explained fast and fun, no time wasted!
Honestly, for optimal shifting points as rule of thumb just check (available in most sims) longitudinal g force, you want g force to stay as close as possible before and after the shift (and overall as high as possible), mind that not every car can be perfectly matched, but try to keep it as close as possible
Elaborate???
@@TheGreatTomDix it's easier if you have MoteC (cause it logs data over a whole period) but basically, you want to have the same g force (acceleration) before and after you upshift, or as close to it because it's not always possible to perfectly even it out, if you shift and g's get lower you're upshifting too early, if you shift and g's go higher you're upshifting too late, just run a couple times for testing with g meter on or recording with motec, find the optimal rpm and shift based on that, if you use motec you'd want the longitudinal g force line as smooth as possible, this is, without jumps or as small jumps as possible
This isn't always true. You can end up being faster at the tail end of an acceleration even if gearing up "too early" resulted in a loss of g-force.
Thanks, mate. Once again, this was very helpful. In my journey it feels like one step forward two steps back.
I practice a new technique or theory so much, wrapping my mind around a new concept, drilling it repeatedly until I find that I have omitted or forgotten previous skills.
Of course I'm sure if I reviewed my old driving footage I would see that I have improved markedly since then. The Dunning-Kruger effect is true for both positive and negative self-assessment, for me anyway. 🥂
Hey homie, just keep going and trying. Sim racing in my limited experience is harder then irl, get down to a track day or an autocross irl when you can and you’ll see your likely way more skilled then you realise.
Sim racing is just as hard as irl and you loose things like depth perception and car feel and sense of speed, so it’s actually a lot harder. If youre hitting a wall with something on the game either just keep playing till you win or try irl.
As long as you’re keeping close to your best time, or beating it, you’re doing great. You’re not always gonna beat your best time other wise you’d already be driving f1 so just try and have fun and you’ll get better as time goes forward. Try stop focus on just ups killing and start trying to focus on fun.
Maybe even switch up discipline. If you’re grip, run drift for a bit. If your drift, run grip. You could try gravel rally or something. If you have a go at all the disciplines it’ll have a massive impact on your skill level in your own discipline.
This is what's taught for Rallying. Now it doesn't really matter, but for true manuals and rallying this is what needs to be learned as well.
I'm nothing when it comes to sim racing, i just play for fun. But I've learnt that trail braking and shifting a Lil early before exiting the corner(not applicable on each car) is one of the fastest way to be fast. Also, shifting down like too quickly or slow also makes a difference. Few cars need over revving and few short shifting. Every car is different.
Engine braking can prevent brake fade on intense tracks
I’ve been using heel and toe downshifting for a few years and I thought I understood the process, but now I’m unsure of the order of operations. I’ve always done Brake, Clutch in, Blip throttle, Shift down, Clutch out. Is it better to blip and then shift down (like I do) or shift down first and then blip?
That transition to the vpn ad was smooth
Bro did a 1 minute ad in a 4 minute video holy shit.
So I'm a self taught Forza Motorsport driver and got the wheel when 2 released and over the last 17 years with being able to drive the same cars on the same tracks consistently I have developed the driving style you have detailed here...makes me feel pretty good knowing that I was able to come to that determination myself and you sharing it with everyone is just going to make the field of competition that much more fun and interesting.
The flawless transition into the surfshark ad is spot on! Advertisment well done! :D
Couple things I feel need correction:
1. The old adage that you want to maximize work that your engine does, and to do that, over time, you need to maximize power. This is where the expression "area under the curve" is relevant. Each of your shift points should focus on maximizing the area under the power curve, which inevitably means, you need to shift slightly after peak power. Torque is important, but to convert torque to power, there is another factor that's missing, which is rpm. You can produce more power at lower torque values just by spinning the engine faster and applying less torque more times per minute.
2. Heel-toe shifting. This is more of a fine detail critique. If you have the ankle mobility for it, it is better to pivot the heel around the metatarsals of the bottom of your feet, rather than rolling over. This allows for more precise control of braking pressure as the rotation around the metatarsal less affects the braking pressure compared to rolling off of it. In a sim rig, not as important compared to when driving a real car. If your physical ankle mobility is limited such that you can only execute the roll onto the throttle comfortably, then by all means, do it because it's better than nothing, but if you can rotate around the metatarsal, do that instead of being lazy and rolling onto the throttle.
I could be mistaken but regarding upshifts isn't it always best to go for region with peak mean hp and ignore torque completely.
that is literally the best intro for an sponsor
It helps a LOT if you can adjust your pedals to be close to eachother. It's how it is in most cars in real life anyway.I don't understand why some gaming hardware manufacturers make pedals so far apart.
How do you keep the brake pressure constant when heel-and-toeing? I find that when I pivot my foot to blip the throttle I end up putting some more pressure on the brakes which is especially not fun when I'm in a car without ABS lol
Practice, and maybe pedal position. You can see in the vid my brake is too far from my throttle so i can't help but lift off the brakes slightly when blipping. Maybe yours is too close?
If you try to do it the anime way or if you have small feet usually your gonna have a bad time. When heel toe shifting in real life, unless the particular car has pedals that are really far apart, I usually just push the brake with the left half of my foot, and then hover the right half of my foot over the gas. Most cars have a lower gas pedal then a brake pedal to avoid pressing the gas in a panic situation, but here we can use it to our advantage. By doing this, you end up with your brake and gas almost level with each other while braking, and then you can just roll the right side of your foot slightly to hit the gas. Makes things much easier.
@@TSRB I have the stock g920 pedals, maybe it's just down to practice lol
Thanks for the advice, also great video as always
@@MrRadicalMoves Thanks, I'll keep that in mind
@@parthiv2013 i also got the g920 stock pedals though i did get rid of that rubber bit in the brake pedal, and yeah its just practice to keep consistent braking while blipping the gas.
I disagree in regards to using the engine for decel. It can really shorten your braking distances and also provide rotation when needed. If you are unsettling the car or having trouble on corner entry then i do agree you need to do something different. Check out my entry into the final turn at laguna seca in my 1:36.266 lap video for an example. The coefficient of friction on road tires tends to peak more gradually and fall off more gradually and so cab be more forgiving. So trading a little grip for rotation can be worth it sometimes.
I dont get the point TSRB is trying to make by telling people to not "engine brake", it's perfectly fine and even desirable to let off the throttle for a corner you dont need to brake for, every time you brake there's engine braking so if you wanna eliminate that out of the question just clutch in to disengage the engine lol. it cant possibly make you slower unless you're letting off the throttle 100m before braking
The point i was trying to make is you shouldn't downshift before braking. Engine braking whilst braking is inevitable, but slower drivers use engine braking solely to slow the car, which shouldn't be done.
@@TSRB i see, that makes more sense now
@@TSRB Not throwing shade here, this was an excellent video, but I think you could've worded that a bit better
@@TSRB In the video you said engine breaking is bad, and I was scratching my head wondering why. Now you say engine breaking is good if you combine it with normal breaking (which sounds pretty obvious imo, if someone wants to break as much as possible, you use the 2 breaking types, not just one). If this was rage bait, this video works wonderfully. If this wanted to be educational, it failed terribly
Proper downshifting is heel and toe under hard braking. Proper up shifting isnt at the limiter. It's at the end of your power band.
I used to think my RX-7 wanted to kill me. I still think that my RX-7 wants to kill me, but now I know that I was giving it extra encouragement. Thank you.
Bruh that advertisement was smoother than my drifting
"Drove around in my Pigeon"
Thank you, please recognize.
First time here, but the smooth ad transition was sick af. LOL Never thought I'd say that. But I actually watched the whole thing. Thanks for that.
In addition to what’s already been said: Apart from staying in revs longer for higher average hp, you will also be in a shorter ratio gear and therefore accelerating quicker. More whp is a way of thinking of it.
Awesome editing and presentation of dry subject matter!
Cheers mate
I'm not sure if any SIM racing setups do this, but in real life some rally drivers sometimes skip the clutch to use left foot braking while changing gear. The gearbox will come out of gear when you put a little bit of pressure towards the neutral position and lift your foot off the accelerator. If you line up the next gear (on upshift) and put a bit of pressure towards the gear, the synchros will keep it out of gear until the revs match, then let the gear slip in. On downshift you need to accelerate past the rev match point and then release the accelerator while putting that pressure on the gear lever.
You can try this in your own manual car. Some work better than others. I've tried it in my Fiat Uno and in my Alfa 156. Team O'Neill Rally school did a fantastic video on it a few years ago. Search 'clutchless Team O'Neill'.
It's quite a good skill to have if you need to get a car with a broken clutch cable home.
That's called Floating the gears
@@blutygergaming8789 Thanks! The wiki page on that seems to describe it well. I don't quite understand what would prevent a non-synchro gearbox from grating when "gently push the gear stick toward the chosen higher gear" while waiting for the speed of the engine and gearbox to match.
@@ThisRandomUsername You just don't hold it there to wait. My grandpa's 1995 Peterbilt 18 speed doesn't have synchros. You just keep the revs where they need to be, and real quick pop it into place. No shoving or waiting. Just push out, pull your foot back a sec, and push it into the next gear and get back on the gas.
In a RWD car, you can actually use engine braking from downshifting using the clutch the modulate to cause more braking force at the rear wheels..this takes a ton of skill even in a straight line but can definitely decrease your stopping distance if done right, of course this is dependent on other things like brake bias, tires, etc but it's basically a way to semi modulate brake bias using the clutch and engine braking and if attempting to do this in a corner, you're more likely to just upset things, I never experimented much with turning but to get you slowed down on a tight corner before rotation if you don't have enough rear brake bias, it can definitely help.
Sadly I play on a Controller so I will can't do the perfect downshifting, but the upshift was basically confirming what I thought. On GT7 I noticed the Alfa Romeo Giulia actually tells on the dash to change the gear before even reaching 6k rpm if I'm not wrong, and that actually keeps on the power band after I did laps changing gears on the car recommendation and redlining. But the downshift are the hardest thing for it.
Anyways, thanks for the useful information!
What do you mean, you definetly can down shift properly on a controller just need to enable the clutch in your settings lol
@@andrewfetter4843 I only saw your comment now. How do I set the clutch on GT7? I didn't saw any tutorial teaching it for controller...
Heel-Toe shifting is impossible in my Focus ST so I just do toe-toe shifting lol. I twist my right food inward and use the side of my foot to blip the gas while barely having a single toe on the brake pedal
It's also pretty difficult in my Fiesta ST, the brake pedal is super sensitive and the accelerator pedal is pretty low
@@s.baldrick3807 they do make a spacer for the accelerator to push it forward more I just haven't looked into getting it yet
It’s about learning your vehicle and how it handles on different surfaces and weather. You drive them all pretty different depending on driveline and weight so this sounds like something I’d show my kid who’s just learning to drive if I didn’t know how to drive and thought this would do good
Downshifting is not just for optimal acceleration, a drivers job is to control the weight of the vehicle, downshifting shifts the weight foward and compresses the front tire for increased grip during cornering.
That was the smoothest transition to a sponsor hahaha
Shifting Is important but it isn’t the end all be all to turns, (RWD as an example) braking hard while going straight and progressively releasing brakes more as you turn and applying throttle will help with getting the vehicle to rotate through the turn a lot quicker. Almost like shock loading your front brakes and using the weight shift to let your rear wheels float over. Be mindful of oversteer as well.
For this 86 with its torque curve, shouldnt you shift at max rpm so that when u upshift, you wont start at such a low power band? I mean sure the engine torque is lower but the power going through the driveshaft will be more, and power is torque x speed, isnt power whats important since u have gears anyway?
By ur suggestion of shifting at 6.5k, we would hit 130 hp then drop down to ~100hp and climb back ip to 120hp.
If we shift at the top of rpm, we would shift out at a lower hp but the lower gear ratio would still be better for accelerating, and when we upshift l, we would be near 120hp, then climb up to 130hp and down again at the redline
yes you’re right, to utilize the power band fully you should be shifting at around 7,500-7,700rpm i think
Torque is what makes the car accelerate, horsepower maintains it. Between both peaks is where you want to be
@@TSRB not really, torque is how much work the engine can do per revolution, torque plus revs = acceleration, aka power
@@TSRB it's gearing dependent. So let's say 2nd gear is a ratio of 3:1 and 3rd is 2:1. So let's say a car makes 100 ft-lbs of torque at 5000rpm and 75ft-lbs at 7000. Because of the gear multiplier the car will be outputting 225ft-lbs to the driveshaft in 2nd gear (75x3) at 7000 rpm. When you shift and you're at 5000 RPM in 3rd gear the output to the driveshaft will be 200 ft-lbs (2x100) so far will be accelerating slower even though it's in the meatier part of the powerband. Majority of cars on stock gear ratios transmission will achieve maximum acceleration by shifting at redline. Especially when the gears are fairly spaced out. There's more factors to it but gear ratios can't really be ignored when trying to figure this out. There is online calculators which will calculate optimal shift points in each gear if you have a cars dynograph.
very interesting video, your take on upshifting is often overlooked as people rev it out to the max without using the peak power the car generates. I am a little skeptic about upshifting before a turn, as if you keep rpms higher through a turn it lets you carry more speed (for rwd) as the engine breaking helps with your trailbraking without affecting your speed a lot . I wonder if it gains you enough time to compensate for the upshift penalty after the turn tho. Maybe you can test it out in another video. nice content as always.
Generally you're timing the upshift so it's just before you need to get on the power, but also not going too early and clutch kicking
@@someweeb3650 that is how i do it too, i dont know if i misunderstood but in the video it said take the corner in the gear that you want to exit it.
lower gears have more torque so its better to stay in a lower gear longer. Just rev it out, shift just before the limiter. The toyota engineers set to the limiter to 7000 for a reason...
2:23 Sorry but this is wrong. There isn't always a change of 1800rpm between gears it actually increases with rpm. Also you want to change so you maximise power. This means you probably want to go up to redline as the power in the next gear will be increased. Try a drag race if you don't believe me.
I'm getting back into manual transmission setup, and i was trying double clutch+heel toeing at the same time. No wonder i got stressed on corner entry 😂
Sometimes, shift early to reduce the torque and go with full throttle is faster than modulating the torque with the gas pedal in lower gear.
With heel and toe downchange, should you not release the clutch on neutral? Clutch down, gear out, clutch up, blip the gas pedal to spin up gearbox, clutch down , low gear in, clutch up and gas!
There's no real point in double clutching in a simulator. You'd only do it on an older car irl if it doesn't have synchros; or if they were worn.
Yes I know that shifting earlier maybe faster in some cars and improve lap times but it's just more satisfying to use every single RPM until 1 RPM before the rev limiter😂
Excuse me, but isn't rev matching done in neutral with clutch lifted up? I had car with broken synchrones and the purpose of rev matching while downshifting was put in neutral, lift clutch up, rev it in neutral fast to spin gearbox and synchronize it exactly how much revs car will have downshifted and downshift it. While upshifting you do the same, but except reving it, you let engine and gearbox rpm drop to synchronise. Also if you do it on real car right, gear falls in lot smoother. What's your opinion now? Plz let me know
It is just little thing i noticed, but you are doing great vids anyway😉
So your double clutching? That's way to slow
it doesen't have, cause when you reving it up, just fastly lift up clutch little bit😉
If your synchros are good, you just clutch in, blip, go down a gear
Look at the video of engineering explained where he explains that even though going higher up in revs you might drop some engine torque but it might still be favorable since you will get quite a mechanical disadvantage from the higher gear ratio
When he shows the heel an toe, he uses the same shoes as Senna in the NSX test drive video. The details, man hahahaha
there is one more way -
hold clutch
trottle 40% (based on power and traction)
brake
turn
release clutch(will give you immediate speed)
How about simply press clutch or n gear when cornering or drifting then hit gear depends on current speed when ready to accelerate?
finally someone who explained heel toe in an easily understandable way
@2:16 - great explanation - totally agree.
I use engine braking whenever I want to induce oversteering, and thus improve my rotation through the corner of car that understeer too much.
A car that rotates better and faster, takes the corner first.
Left foot braking gang sound off!
Seriously I can't do the heal and toe chicanery to save my life, but I got really good at shifting without the clutch.
4:10 why not just downshift and release the clutch slower so the engine catches rpm's but it doesn't upset the car
shifting in the powerband was something i didnt know about somehow, thanks for the tips! so great to see you growing so much
it depends on the car, but what he said is wrong, you want the highest average power for whatever gear you're in, if the power is fairly flat at the top, and slightly drops off, you are much better off than if you ride the power as it grows, torque is just as arbitrary as rpm, the torque curve should not change where you shift at all, the only thing that matters is power,
torque * rpm = power.
In many racecars, especially endurance racecars that have big restrictors and lower redlines than most, you have to find the right area to shift, typically it's always redline, but sometimes, like with the ac 458 gt2 for example, it's not quite at the redline because power drops off too much.
The 86 he was driving you absolutely need to rev all the way to redline
4:15 lol ever heard about Gilles Panizzi? I can assure you that when it come to the clock time nothing matters... heel and toe, beautiful oversteering style, ugly understeer style, clean, dirt... nothing matters when you can shave a lot of time compare to others guys. However heel and toe is good to have a "feel" for the rythm of the speed and preserve mechanical aspect of the car.
It might come to a surprise to you, but I actually shift up, when in a tight situation. What this gives to me, is more reliable torque & reaction time.
Depends on if its rear or front wheel drive to be honest in a rear wheel I nose dive into the curve hard inside as I'm coming into I bring it down to speed and Start fading on it and let the weight of the car bring me back into my lane front wheel I start down shifting with my brake and my pulling gear comes in half way through the curve and the weight off the rear end will seem light but you wait till the front starts to pull tap the brake once or twice and let it pull you back into your lane gradually
My real heel-toe downshifting is just a side step, which might be useful for sim rigs in some cases
Me: Top Gear is on Netflix?!
Also Me: Only the last 5 seasons...
Do you think its alright if you're reaching the end of a straight and you're in high gear, so you keep it in high gear thru the turn, but then you downshift a few times so the gears can get a bite on the wheels again?
It's always better to do before you turn in to make the corner also helps stabilize the car for the corner and staying in one gear in the corner using the power band of that gear then up shifting when the time comes outside of the corner all while not losing momentum.
@@Cody.Wright Agreed.
0:12 The statement in essence wrong, the engine brake improves braking performance and is therefore a useful tool to improve lap time.
The only way not to use the engine brake is to press the clutch for the entire braking zone.
You also use the engine brake when you are Rev Matching.
All other points in the video are correct and well explained :)
The point i was trying to make is you shouldn't downshift before braking. Engine braking whilst braking is inevitable, but slower drivers use engine braking solely to slow the car, which shouldn't be done.
@@TSRB who on Earth downshifts before braking
Sometimes I like to purposefully shift lock for rotation. I found that I get faster lap times with that on some hairpins
you will find heel and toe allot easier if you spin your foot rather than roll it. try hit the gas with the heal/underside of your foot. rolling your foot under g force is allot harder to control. i know this is a sim rig but the motion itself is better controlled if done with the bottom of your foot.
Also depends what you are racing, most race cars have transmissions or transaxles where you dont need the clutch unless you are stopped and need to get going and then you are left foot braking and blimping the throttle with the right foot. Nascar and indy don't use the clutch when down or uo shifting, im not sure but i dont thunk f1 does either any more. Been like tthat for 10 years or more
you forgot the most important part for a perfect downshift ; the Ralph Lauren slippers (In red for more speed )
just because of how creative the use of the sub count was i subbed
i play your videos while i sleep, i'm too lazy to learn, so i hope that the information gets absorbed in my mind while i'm sleeping, and then i will wake up a better racing driver
Downshifting during the braking period is more or less a strategy to allow for both hands-on the wheel during turn in.
ok mate, you look crazy enough to think about this question that has been around my mind for a while... what about downshifting without heel and toe.... using the initial spin to turn the car around the corners? if you think this is some bullcrap look for gilles panizzi driving the lancer evo against some best motoring drivers and also on touge, the guy literally got the fastest lap without heel and toe, so what do you think about that?
Absolutely love the style of your videos. Hope your channel gets way more attention, wishing you all the success on the platform you deserve!
that was the sneakiest VPN commercial ever, kudos
the track and "the streets" are quite literally the same in a simulator. The driving style does not change, and should be entirely based on rotating the car properly, neutral steering if applicable, and by extension riding the limit of the tires.
"The engine is there to increase your speed not decrease it. That's what brakes are for". Damn that's crazy.
Til nothing bc I DD a manual sports car. This video is really informative to those who don't drive manuals.
When I try to heel-toe I end up pushing the brake harder when I press the gas peddle. What do?