What If WW2 Was a Three Way War?
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- Опубликовано: 22 фев 2024
- #possiblehistory #ph
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This feels like an average hoi4 single player game tbh XD
Except Romania didn’t conquer 65% of the Soviet Union
And there aren't a bunch of landlocked states inside of Russia
think at least there is no borde-gore
and the german reich didn't somehow survive and get away with a portion of east prussia at the end of the war
AI Turkey being the most useless addition to the allies in game by declaring war in historical:
Hoi4 on historical when you do Anschluss a day too early:
Lol
or just HOI4 on historical
🤓☝️
Scenario Idea: What if Genoa didnt sell Corsica to France and Napoleon became an Italian General?
This sounds epic ngl
YESSS
Or if it was incorporated by Tuscany or Piedmont
Napoléon would have never became a italian général
@@madpig7120 he actually was a Corsican nationalist and Anti-French in his youth
Suggestion: What if everything went perfectly For Napoléon III
W scenario, get this to be top comment so PH will see it
You already suggested it last time
He was the best ruler France has had
no he wasn’t he was a wimp
@@crsmith6226 Except the 1st
Honestly if the British took the gamble that the Molotov-Rippentrop pact was gonna turn on itself and declared war on the USSR it very much would have turned it into a 3 way war
Yea, I'm pretty sure 'History Matters' YT channel did a video on why the UK almost (but didn't) declare war on the USSR, if I remember right.
This alternate WWII was probably closer to happening than any other.
(Editted for slight correction)
The UK nearly did, we only stopped because the Winter War finished, Sweden pro-axis government and Norway invasion.
@@Inucroft Pro-axis? Why? Because Sweden deny passage to the allied troops?
Sweden was mostly neutral, but, having the Axis powers all around them, they chose to trade a lot with Germany.
So they basically weren’t "pro-axis", but still helped them a lot (on a Sweden scale 😅) during the war, even if they helped the oppressed minorities by protecting them under their borders (pushed by the Denmark’s government).
They believed Hitler will destroy the Soviet Union, because they saw the SU as very weak and had the same perception as him, if you kick in the door, the house will crumble. That is why they stopped any action against them and turned to an ally suppling critical goods to the SU in 1941.
I think something big that would happen in this timeline is that Japan (aka the Japanese leadership) would actually be punished for its war crimes all over Asia because there is no Soviet Union or Communist China. America would have no reason for a democratic ally in the region as soon as possible, so they might be treated more like Germany.
the japanese leadership WAS punished? all those integral were executed or detained and a fairly large amount of ppl with minor roles were also tried and punished. communism only impacted japan with the reverse course where the US purged japanese leftist.
"democratic ally in the region as soon as possible" But That's not what happened in our timeline anyway. One of the main problems of Japan's reckoning with its war past is the fact that it was foreigners that judged the Japanese war criminals, instead of the Japanese themselves, as had happened in Germany. The Japanese from then on felt the victims of foreign powers meddling with their identity. Japan was further completely restricted from having an army and Japan only served as a base for resupply in the near future wars. In 1945, The Americans did not care much about the Asian Theatre, that is also why they basically allowed the Republic of China to collapse to the Communists. It was only the Korean War that changed American policy - a permanent presence and reindustrializing Japan (who's economic miracle started here by supplying the Korean War).
Germany was basically a similar case. The US originally wanted to completely deindustrialize Germany and starve millions in the process. It was only the start of the Cold War (especially the coup d'etat in Czechoslovakia) that saw large investment to reindustrialize and strengthen it. Contrary to what we assume today, even though the Germans tried their own war criminals, the popular sentiment in Germany was that they were victims crushed by the might of the Allies, not that they did anything bad. It did not help that the need to reindustrialize the state meant that many fascists were rehabilitated will little to no penalties, something that the Socialist GDR often used in propaganda (though they also rehabilitated key members of the previous regime for similar reasons). Especially the Eastern Front was considered an honourable war for the next decade. It was only around 1968, when a new generation of Germans matured to university age, that the issue was re-opened and addressed on a wider social level. Wider sentiment in German society only changed after this point, especially later in the 1970s and 1980s, with the Germany committing to Israel (like after the Munich Atentat).
So America had similar plans for both Germany and Japan in the immediate post-war. The changes to those plans brought on by outside geopolitics only took place after the gears were already set into motion. The main difference is that Japan would have likely had a weaker economy in the post-War than the miracle it experienced in our timeline.
japanese higher ups WERE punished. idk why my og comment was deleted but most ppl involved were detained or handled.
After reading about it a bit more, I think you are right. The pardoning of prince Yasuhiko Asaka, which I was mainly referring to as one of the examples of the Japanese leadership not being punished, was done mainly to make the occupation much easier after the war and not so much for having a democratic ally. The Japanese economic miracle was indeed for that purpose, so that wouldn’t happen, but I might actually see the Japanese being treated even easier given that the us also had to occupy parts of the former Soviet Union in this timeline. Maybe even more pardons would be given out to control the people.
@@wormlington the americans weren’t going to target anyone related to the imperial family. konoe was an exception because he was prime minister and directly caused the war. if they did it would of made it harder like you said. but also the japanese economic miracle isn’t purely because of the US, after the dodge line good economic planning by the shigeru then later ikeda administration led to that.
Uk: I like the map colours
Us: it's colors..
UK: COLOURS
US: COLORS
*The English Cold War*
Also knows as the… CHIPS VS FRIES WAR
@@Idonothing-jj7qeor chips vs crisps or walkers vs lays
Elevator vs Lift
Cream vs Lotion
Groomer vs Vacuum
Advert vs Commercial
-Even though this is more international than just the two-
Football vs Soccer
I really like how u took karelia into account. I never see people outside of finland doing that!
Remember the Inngria tragedy.
@@charmyzard i googled the inngria tragedy but couldnt find anything. what happened there?
@duogamers9617 a lot of Ingrian Finns living in and around Leningrad, St. Petersburg were deported to Siberia and other areas in mass much like Germans after ww2 in soviet controlled areas, look up deportation of ingrian finns you should be able to find some stuff
@@Finn_the_Cat thank you for the info.
'What if Carthage won the Second Punic War' sounds lit!
Isnt that just post finem
@@Soiladpost finem is quite unrealistic
Lithuanian!
Sorry
That’s going to happen
@@Soilad Post finem essentially assumes that:
Carthage does nothing after the punic war aside from balkanise italy and convert it to their religion
The wars of the diadochi never end and no middle eastern powers ever coalesce
The germanic and brittonic tribes never unite to any degree
The huns never do anything
Noticed you didn't make Iceland independent, despite being the Kingdom of Iceland since 1918 and becoming a republic in 1944. There was a treaty since 1904 with Denmark that said we would renegotiate Iceland's independence in 1944.
Almost as if Iceland is irrelevant
@@scavulous6336 lol
@@scavulous6336the brits and americans occupied them in our timeline
That's only because they're covering up the uncomfortable truth. A successful Britain that isn't humbled by the Suez Crisis meant that they went full-nuclear in the Cod War...
For Germany, the allies had already planned to restore the old borders. Never understood the idea of splitting the nation as it'd likely never suceed with Southern Germany having distinctly become its own culture with its influences in Austria and Northern Germany.
Getting Bavaria independent surely wouldn't have been difficult.
Adding the rest of southern Germany to it would definitly be harder though.
Morgenthau plan
Yeah it was only divided because the Soviet Union wanted a piece. I don’t think this scenario makes any sense tbh. Like just the premise of it is hugely illogical. I also think what was more likely bid there’d be a peace agreement once the Americans entered the war. The USSR would not totally capitulate like this and the allies would be too war weary todo it.
The Germans in this scenario could also be seen as victims of Nazism rather than participants of it, so things like French nationalism would be less enthusiastic about utterly destroying the idea of a German state.
Realistically because of Poland being part of the allies polish majority areas such as Vilnius would probably stay within the country
Yeah the poland border changes were sad to see. I think they should’ve atleast kept Vilnius and Galicia since most parts of those areas are polish majority or have significant polish populations.
@@Yoshi-uz6ndbig Poland would be much worse
I thought it was stupid how PH took pre-war territories away from Poland even though they were clearly on the winning side of the war. I don't really think the Allies realistically would've done that, even if they wanted to create an independent democratic Ukraine and Belarus. I just don't see it as very likely that 'victims' of the war like Poland and Czechoslovakia would have to lose a bunch of land after the war. Also the German-Polish border was also stupid imo.
@@default9555 why's that
@@Maltheus_ It's also funny how in the "What if everything went perfect for Poland?" - a series btw where the goal is maximum territorial expansion - Poland ends up have less land than OTL, and Ukraine still gets the Polish land that wasn't Ukrainian before the deportations and UPA genocide.
Some disagreement I have is I don't think Germany would be divided as they're surrender enjoyed a support of the Soviet invasion, which does make things very tense and European cooperation... Pessimistic, I also assume ermland goes to Poland as you say but konigsberg likely goes to Lithuania a proposition that happened in our timeline for various reasons mostly the history of the Baltic Germans.
Another point against dividing germany is the Atlantic charter which may or may not exist in this world but the sentiments of the document definitely would exist
one thing some people may not know: The people in charge of making the Bavarian constitution (which were Bavarians) were actually considering wanting to be independent of the rest of Germany but that got a clear no from the US. (For those interested, beside the overall German constitution, every state in Germany has its own constitution too.)
In this scenario Greece would keep Northern Epirus, as the main reason why it didn't was the objection of the Soviet Union
PH is really obsessed with those Polish borders and I'm not sure why, as in this scenario they make no sense. Poles in this timeline would've been seen as heroes, fighting against both the Fascists and the Communists, and never giving up. I don't know why they would lose so much land to Ukraine and Belarus, nations that, despite suffering under the USSR, were part of it nonetheless.
Yeah I highly doubt Belarus would exist in this timeline. Already it's basically a fictional nation, basically a part of Russia.
That sounds like an extremely sus take. @@RMProjects785
@@RMProjects785😒Seriously? Sthu with that bullcrap.
@@XD-yn6hb how? Belarus is a puppet
Most intelligent pole
I dont understand how there is the political power to partition Germany after you just turned them into an ally? The Allies used and fought the Soviets together with the German army which (according to you) still is quite powerful in the East and fields millions. How can the allies come up with the political capital to split Germany in two after Germany basically helps them win the war?
It’s not like Germany would have much of a say.
Yeah, good point, I too was really surprised that Germany was still torn to shreds in this timeline with the Soviets, or now only Russian, coming out with merely a slap on the wrist. Pretty disappointing from Possible History.
The divisions aren't what throws me off, they could easily leverage Bavarian and allemanic seperatism for that.
But I can't imagine the external border changes. In this situation, any border changes which would lead to massive deportations would be a insane decision.
In regards to the German military, I'm going to assume Germany was made to demobilise and demilitarise before the peace conference began. As for the political capital, the only people that really need to be convinced would be the Allies(and their citizens), which wouldn't be impossible considering Germany began two world wars within a 30 year time span
France is gonna France.
I don't think that germany would be split up as you showed in the video because they helped to fight against the USSR
They probably only allowed Germany exist because they helped.
@@lithunoisan
Yeah but in this scenario a military coup happens as to not waste lives and save germany. Then the army is used against the soviets. Tell me why would they do that. 1. The allies force them to fight as labourer soldiers, which is not a thing they do. 2. The promise to gain something from fighting the soviets. No what could that something mean. Maybe a not so harsh peace deal, for example not lossing east prussia.
Otherwise I do not see the germans fight a war they already lost.
Its idiotic tho. How they gonna just turn east after a tough war and 2 entire cities fried. How does the relationship work? For high ups thw Soviets may be orime target but for commoners it be allied bombs falling on their heads and western troops more likely to reahc their homeland.
The other European powers who were brutally subjugated would never allow a united Germany. UK, France, Benelux, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway, Czechoslovakia, and most of all Poland would never allow it
Fun fact: Before Truman was presdient, he said the usa should suport which side is losing, in order to make both countties weaker.
another possible history banger
What if everything went perfect for Norway?
(Please do a what if everything went perfect for Norway scenario)
Yes please!🇳🇴🇳🇴
I support this idea as a Norwegian
Norway world hegemony
Everything did go right for Norway
Heavilly feel like the peace and changes in Eastern Europe and the former USSR seem way too idealistiv rather than what the Allied Powers really settled down, especially with their track record of border changes (Carving up Africa and post WW2)
I mean it's Possible History what did you expect
I bet they unironcially think the west was 'the good guys' in the cold war
Id imagine that the map would look very similar to this I suspect poland wouldn’t lose any eastern land and that germany is gored further
@@Hys-01 bro, you have the juche symbol as user icon, you cant criticise anyone on thier views on foreing policy. I dont love the US, but i would sure as hell rather live there, than in north korea
counterpoint: they viewed Europeans as real people (see: treaty of Verseilles and the Austrian treaty (forgot the name)). Even though those treaties were harsh, they weren't nearly as harsh as the Ottoman treaty, because the European powers saw the Ottomans as just another colonial land grab (especially after making promises to several native groups, which they saw as easily exploitable).
While yes, it may seem idealistic, its not nearly as idealistic as you may think.
@@korvmaster229 Don't worry, I used to think like you when I was 14
One of the best episodes so far!
Poland was still punished a litlle to hard cities like vilnius and gomel where almost 80% polish so They probably shoud have been still left polish
To Me Poland and Germany got the short end the stick like a really short one
@@KiraiKatsuji Maybe they actually grow closer in their shared bitterness.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul Like nothing unites humans more than hatred of the same thing
Barbarossa in this scenario is unrealistic: soviets have less soldiers on west but they end up on the same lines as in our timeline
It’s cause most os the Soviet army and planes at the front were historically destroyed in the first phase of operation Barbarossa and couldn’t help to defend the soviets
@@wurstbrot7164 yes, but soviets would lose more ground than in our timeline
The actual soviet soldiers present barely affected how far the Germans were able to get; weather, terrain, and scorched earth tactics (mostly carried out by random civilians!) were the cause of that.
I have to say, I consider Poland Losing Vilnius to be very unlikely, the area around it and the city itself especially were overwhelmingly Polish, even with OTLs Population expulsions Lithuania still has a large Polish minority. I highly doubt that Lithuania would be given the area, instead I think that what would effectively happen is that Poland would have a thin wedge of land going to Vilnius, basically separating Belarus from Lithuania.
3 way wars involving separate nations are incredibly rare so it probably wouldnt ever have happened. Interesting to consider how it'd go if somehow it had though.
Very interesting video! You do a great job of parsing what is realistic and what isn't from existing scenarios.
Idea: what if barbarossa was actually launched "later", like most axis victory scenarios propose? I like the fact that you are oftentimes realistic on what would actually happen, so covering that stuff would be great :3
Arguably, later actually makes it worse; delaying the invasion both gives the Soviets more time to prepare that they desperately needed, and means the period of time where the Soviets are being attacked and the US isn't helping them is much shorter. Delaying Barbarossa is really only helpful if the Germans somehow capitulate Britain in the meantime, and that ship had already sailed (pun intended) with the Luftwaffe's failure to defeat the RAF.
germany needed invade ussr in 1941 because they had food shortages. It was either now and hope for quick win or never
@@somenon-human0267 exactly. Also had the ussr been invaded later then there would have been more t-34's, better airfields, more aa coverage, massive red army reorganizations, etc which would mean germany would be rext almost inmediately after starting barbarossa.
@@plasmakitten4261also germany would have even less oil
If anything invading a month or two earlier (which Germany planned to do before they had to deal with Yugoslavia and Greece) would've been better, as the Germans might've encircled Moscow before the winter set in. However, even if Moscow was taken it'd be a phyrric victory, being probably the bloodiest battle of the war, like Stalingrad but worse. Summer offensive in 1942 as a result isn't as successful, but the USSR finds mobilization difficult as the railway network centers around Moscow, and there's the very real possibility of Stalin and other high-profile officials being killed or taken prisoner in Moscow, considering they pledged not to leave the capital like Hitler did in our timeline. Barbarossa was pretty doomed no matter what
I kind of doubt that Poland would lose any land in this scenario, especially to former soviet countries. Poland was the main reason the war started, and it definitely wouldn't go over well that the allies gave away Polish land to their former enemies. Also, Germany wouldn't have been partitioned if it continued fighting against the Soviets as they would've just surrendered if they hadn't been given territorial guarantees.
My idea is that the rest of Ukraine and Belarus are still split off, but they are given to Poland to form a sort of "Polish-Ruthenian commonwealth"
@@avandorhu-3389That sounds like it would better help fix border conflicts since language boundaries can be more fluid.
Absolutely interested in a continuation!
This is really good, I would love to see a continueation of this video!
Common possible history W
No
I don't know how to describe it but this timeline feels more realistic than what happened in OTL
Yeah it feels like a massive plot hole in reality that the USSR essentially sided with the Axis in the first year and nobody really cared
@@RMProjects785 honestly.
Though tbf there is a good reason why the Allies didn’t declare war on the USSR. Britain was in a life-or-death struggle with the Axis, declaring war on another superpower wouldn’t have helped. As well as that, the British government knew the Axis would eventually go to war with the Soviets.@@robertortiz-wilson1588
It’s a good day when possible history uploads.
Love the interesting take on the typical scenario! I’m sure I’m not the only one who would love a part 2. Maybe on Beyond PH??
The big difference you overlooked is a lack of a country to supply the former colonies with weapons. If no Soivet Union or communist China exist, rebellion would be very hard in this world due to the lack of a nation to supply weapons to the rebellion faction.
I would argue that Italy would lose Trentino/South Tyrol as a key factor in preventing this loss of territory was fears that the Italian Communist Party would win the election;
without Soviet/influence the Allies may actually give away the territory,
Great video!
this was really good, re-subscribed.
Honestly, fantastic job with this one, really fascinating to think about!
I'm very happy with the borders you ended up giving Finland. Many alt-historians tend to give way too much land to Finland, all of Karelia, and sometimes even the Murmansk peninsula (wich is ridicioulus)
The border that you drew here is very rational. It makes Finland much bigger but it's somewhat reasonable, not taking too much from Russia, and not giving tons of undesired. land to Finland.
I like the idea that this scenario's cold war would be between the US and republic nations against empires like Britain. Would truly make this a narrative masterpiece
That seems incredibly unlikely. Britain and the US had well and truly buried the proverbial hatchet by this point. The US might not like imperialism, or they might not care, but they wouldn't fight over it. The British were also a little less reluctant about decolonisation than the French after World War 2, partly due to war exhaustion, and partly because they viewed the Commonwealth as a suitable substitute. There might be less Anglo-American cooperation, but they'd probably still be mostly friendly. France held on a bit more tightly (and still does through less direct means), but I don't think there's much prospect of a cold war there.
China is probably the dark horse here, as whoever ended up on top in the end would likely still be authoritarian and expansionist, but it would likely take a few decades to develop.
31 minutes?! You blessed us today!
This is a great video, I'd love to see a continuation.
I dont think the peace deal would be so harsh on germany. Since their soldiers fought the soviets together and some earlier territory transfer like the sudetenland where also accepted. I think in this timeline it would be much more likely, that germany would be allowed to keep its eastern territories except poland. Why do those eastern european states have to be formed with former polish territory anyway?
intresting thought ...
it would matter greatly from how sencire and strong fighting the german army would be viewed i guess..
But , the century long phylosofy of balance or power the UK strived for would not be broken.. so the UK WOULD strive for a German that could blanance France it's power somewhat after that war!
Germany already seems WAY bigger in this scenario then current unified Germany, if the German minorities where well treated under the Polish state.. mmm, difficult to estimate :-) . food for thought!
Why is Poland, 4th power in allies (without china) the bigest loser in this scenario? They lost far more than Italy or Romania. This looks really unfair that bigest victim of war is done so dirty...
Exactly
wkurzyło mnie to że potraktowali nas gorzej niż stalin
Polish imperialism isn't justified just because they were oppressed before
Sooooo good, great job 👍
Please continue this scenario. This one is one of your bests! Greeting from Finland
Continue this scenario, there its a lot of potential.
9:35 this fails to consider the possibility that the Germans, after seeing the British (who they are at war with) take all their oil, would conduct an offensive against the British to take said oil. They didn't come all the way to the Caucasus just to be like "oh well, I guess the British took it before we could" No! they are going to fight for it!
they would've lost, as they would've been too overstretched
the 10 extra minutes that the video has compared to a normal one makes this a way better video
A continuation would be great!
I think it’s unlikely Germany would lose all of Prussia, especially since a military coup against Hitler was mentioned and that Germans fought the USSR. Germany would have feel immensely betrayed by the loss of Eastern Prussia as a whole. I think that the independence of Bavaria and the formation of an Austro-Bavarian confederation is likely, but Baden-Württemberg, being Protestant, and not Catholic, would probably be given the choice between joining south Germany or remaining with the rest of Germany. And when it comes to the East, Germany would probably lose Upper Silesia as well as half of East Prussia (Ermland Masuren) to Poland, while keeping the rest of Königsberg in borders similar to what thr “Kaliningrad Oblast” is today, but it would be German. Finally, would a Cold War between emerging countries like China and India against the West be possible?
East prussia is the undirect reason the war started. Germany couldn't be allowed to keep it and in the most extreme case there would be a free state. BTW allies didnt really care about the opinion of Germany. Also, Baden is mostly catholic although it has a lot of protestants.
@@bulkax303 the reason the war started was Austria TWICE I’m tired everyone blaming Prussia for everything
What if France won the Franco-Prussian war
Eh not that Interesting bismarck had set a Trap for the French, so Germany still would have be unified And whatever the French got from the war would likely just be Reversed in a Other war
I'm debating with myself if this is your best video ever
Your music choices are on point.
one note about the Polish borders:
as a Pole, learning about Polish history in school in much greater detail than most people, I can safely say that Poland would only lose minor territories in the east, and would certainly keep Vilnius. Operation "Gate of Dawn" was an effort to liberate Vilnius from German occupation to send a message to the west that "this is Poland". with the Soviets and the Germans both being the antagonists, I can see this affair going through in Poland's favour. as for the western border, the disputed areas of Silesia and southern east Prussia would be added to Poland, as there were plebiscites held after WW1, and even an uprising in Silesia itself, though much of east Prussia would either remain in Germany, or become its own independent country, like South or North Germany.
all in all, I can see Poland giving up cities like Baranowice (modern day Baranavichy, Belarus) and Równe (modern day Rivne, Ukraine), but keep Lviv and Vilnius, as these had a majority Polish population.
also, for Crimea, it's very well possible that it's independent, as it was after WW1 for about 6 hours.
Sounds pretty good.😊
Allies don't have friends, they have interests. And they will gladly sacrifoce poland as the see fit. Even more so in this timeline since there is no other world power poland can get help from and keep the allies in check
One note on probable postwar Polish government, the exiled one was formed mostly on basis of various opposition forces to the military prewar junta. This included peasant party, socialists and catholic nationalists, but for obvious reasons excluded communists, probably even more in this timeline.
I like the variety of background music. Definitely brings more flavor than other alt his videos that probably use the same bland music for years.
Should have mentioned the massive famine that would happen in the ussr if the Germans held the Caucasus and Ukraine in 1942 and into 1943, the area was the bread basket for the ussr and they already don’t get lend lease to relieve them, it at least deserves a mention, and the battle for Moscow would have been interesting to discuss which I haven’t seen you talk about once in the channel
I love this channel❤
17:34 i dont really think poland would loose any territories would they? in our timeline poland only lost their eastern territories due to the soviets wanting some territory from the war. i dont see why poland, which now was completely on the side of the allies, would loose any territories?
the west only let stalin keep parts of poland due to him being crucial to defeating germany, in this case there is nobody demanding any territory from poland, and poland would either be slightly expanded east, or belarus and ukraine would be created only from soviet territories.
I would only at most see vilnius being kept part of lithuania for various reasons.
however in this case poland wouldnt take as much of germany, as in our timeline it was stalin who wanted the lines drawn this way, to keep more of europe in his sphere of influence if his DDR project failed.
This timeline sounds like hell for those living in the global south.
Even if Colonialism ended Western Neocolonialism will definitely continue.
This might be one of if not the best WW2 scenarios
Do a continuation please, alternate history doesnt have to always be realistic, lets just see how the world might develop after this
The very idea that the Germans would surrender because of a couple of atomic bombs is so naive that I can't even put it into words. Of course, the Germans immediately surrendered after the surrender of all their allies in Europe and the encirclement of the capital by the Red Army, when everyone already understood that Germany had lost. Oh wait, they didn't ...
Finally a sensible comment! Berlin, Hamburg and Dresden were effectively nuked, so what? People think that nukes are a magic wand... But guess what, the Douhet doctrine doesn't work.
- Adûnâi
You think the Wehrmaht would just start to serve the Allies against the Soviets? Majority of them would lie down their aems and Soviets would retake at least their land.
I wouldn't go that far with it, but yeah the idea that the Germans and Soviets would basically just completely ignore the Allied fronts is dumb.
Please continue this alternate history!
Honestly I'd love to see a continuation of this
My headcannon is that in the alternative timeline where Munich was nuked. The bomb that was used had "made with JEWISH science and american muscle" written on the side of it as a sorta last "screw you" to the Nazis.
hell yeah
Cool idea, but sadly the US didn't really know/care about the Holocaust until a few years after the war. It was the Soviets who liberated the concentration camps, and they took their sweet time releasing that knowledge to the West. America also was kind of dickish about Jewish immigrants fleeing Europe during the war. "The Holocaust" as a concept to define the pure evil of fascism by didn't take hold until knowledge of it became more widespread; during the war, it was just "They invaded every nation in Europe, many after completely violating treaties, so they're bad". In this timeline, that will stay the case until AFTER peace is concluded - most likely peace with the Soviets as well. So while it is common knowledge that the fascists are super racist towards Jews at this point, the US simply isn't going to care enough about that to write a message no one will read (because they'll be dead). The "this was made by Jews" irony becomes much more powerful a few years down the line.
@@plasmakitten4261 the Jewish scientists who made the bomb would certainly know what was going on, that’s why they fled.
@@oilybat3269 Except no, they didn't. They fled from German persecution, sure. But there's a difference between discrimination laws etc., and an outright extermination attempt. The concentration camps weren't public knowledge until way later. At best, they were just a "myth".
@@plasmakitten4261Yes, but people knew that Nazi Germany didn’t like Jews.
But about Poland, Władysław Sikorsky and his followers were in opposition to pre-war Polish government. So he maybe establishes autocracy but even slighter than pre-war one, due to the fact that AK (strongest resistance organization in Poland) and exiled politicians want to establish democracy. For example, Stanislav Mikołajczyk. But yes chance to that Poland invade newly established countries is possible, and first one definitely be Lithuania due to the fact that Polish people and government want to regain Wilno (In Wilenszczyzna as well as in Wilno Poles were majority)
Great video
Really cool video
As much as it pains me to admit, Finland would probably lose to the Soviets in this timeline. In actual history they were weeks away from a total victory when Stalin lost his nerve over an Allied intervention (that we know would not have been coming). If he was already at war with them then there'd be no reason to stop.
However, the aftermath would probably have been different. Stalin's plan was for Finland to become a "people's republic" like the Warsaw Pact countries after the war. The new borders would have included quite a bit of Karelia in exchange for most of the Isthmus, but not quite enough to cover the Murmansk railroad. We can be pretty sure this was the actual plan, since they released new maps and officially recognized the (treasonous) government of O.W. Kuusinen at the start of the Winter War. The Wikipedia article for "Finnish Democratic Republic" is pretty good and has the maps if you're interested.
Did you watch the video?
Waasnt the plan of the allies to not make any territorial changes to germany (soviets excludet of course)
i would love part 2 for this
Really interesting
I do believe that an EU would still form, since one of its main purposes was to prevent another European war. While it wouldn't be necessary as a bulwark against the Soviets, it would still be seen as a way to help prevent European wars, help Europe rebuild, and help Europe stand up to the USA as the sole superpower.
Russian peace deal wasn't that harsh. I mean, Germany has literally split into two and in that scenario Russia was almost as aggressive in Europe as Germany.
Possible territorial adjustments could also be :
- giving Kuban and Rostov territories to either Ukraine or an Independent-like republic of Ukrainians, since there is quite a large population of Ukrainians there due to Russian empire measures of redistributing population. It would cripple Russia's domination over the Black and Azov sea since they would lose ports like Taganrok (which, btw, was considered part of UPR and Ukr.SSR in the early 1920-s).
- giving Belgorod to Ukraine because of the large Ukrainian population and Donetsk-Krivoy Rog Soviet Republic, whose capital was Belgorod in the initial invasion of Soviets into Ukraine (feels almost like a Karelia in Finland in this scenario).
- giving Starodubian territories to Ukraine, because it was part of UPR and the Ukrainian state.
- independence of the Far-eastern Republic (nearby territories of Habarovsk and Vladivostok), as a possible satellite of China. It was a mostly Ukrainian-populated area back in the day (as far as I am concerned, they are russified now), and they even tried to establish independence in the Russian Civil War. This could also lead to fixing the Sakhalin dispute (whose to give the contested area out of two losing powers - Russia or Japan?).
But most of these could be only established if Ukraine was indeed considered a victim, not an accomplice.
Very true, and I considered those things, but the difference is all the sub republics were split from Russia in the peace - which in itself may be considered enough of a punishment. Also Germany was more personal for Western Europe, they occupied the West and (in their mind) started 2 world wars.
But I absolutely agree there is a distinct possibility for some of those border changes to have occurred.
@@possiblehistoryPH, I’ve tried to contact ya multiple times about the harassment I got on the discord server where I was called the hard r, renamed inappropriately (can’t say due to possible comment censorship), and banned immediately after a warning just because I asked why Prussia was on an equally ban able offense as their WW2 counterparts. I’ve sent ya an email on the matter about a week ago yet ya didn’t respond.
@@randomteenageboy5002 Yeah, no I looked through the server and I couldn’t find any message using the Hard R Either the messages have been removed and the person been banned or you’ve been dm and if you have just Block them
Please continue it!
Less go new vid
We need continuation on this scenario. It would be interesting to see the predictions for China, Eastern Europe, Japan, Germany, France, Former USSR, and the like. I imagine that within a few years of America pulling back, Poland starts a war against Belarus and Ukraine, Hungary returns to fascism, France sees civil discontent over colonialism and Communism begins to return. China antagonizes Britain, France, and Portugal into forming an intervention against China to try to retain their colonies. Both Germanies are likely angry, and with the fact that the German army in the West had put pressure on the USSR to collapse, fascism stays as an ideology waiting to come back and bring Germany back.
I think Russia would be consumed by vengeance towards the West in this timeline, even more so than in our world. I think it'd be like Weimar Germany, where a few decades after the war a radical who seeks to return to the good old days of Russian power takes advantage of an isolationist America to begin reconquering the former Empire. Without the USSR, there isn't as much of an arms race, so nuclear arsenals remain quite small, instead of being a massive deterrent.
I really don't understand why you put lend lease as more important then a soviet army not crippled, and air force intact.
Please continue this scenario!
Please mr possible history, we need a part 2
A happier world
I didn't think that a timeline more dystopian than ours could exist, but you made it happen! 🥳🎉🎉
Go to N Korea then
*You are literally communist*
But yeah, honestly this timeline does not look bright
I LOVE YOUR VIDEO
Please continue!
Stealing Polish land as it marches among winners without soviets occupying their whole country seems just soooo foolish
Wasn't polish land
overall video is good but there are 2 problems in borders and logic that i see. First problem is german military turning to the allied side after putch, yes it is reasonable but spliting after their help germany into 2 states isnt. i would see a referendum if austria would still be part of germany. Second is eastern europe. Belorussian nation idenity was not common at the time, many belorussian at the time considered themselvs as the poles, ukrainians, or russians. Allies would never give Vilnus to lithuania considering that during soviet invasion of poland in ww2 lithuania joined the attack and annexed forcefully this region, also even that you were reasonable to let poland keep lemberg/lviv/lwów i would let poland keep at least more of eastern galicia considering that ukrainians fascist that cooperated with nazi germany, done horrible things against polish civilians, doing ethnic cleasing in rural area of volyhnia ( not only poles, but also they killed belarusians, roma, jews, and even ukrainians that didnt wanted to participate in this genocide). In my opinion (and i can be wrong) you done eastern border of poland that way to justify instability and make a poland a country that will continue the war after 1945, you also made a mistake showing general Władysław Sikorski when talking about pre-war regime. And really calling it military dictatorship ? I will not be harash and will just call it a mistake, because Sikorski was in opposition of Sanation (the regime that ruled before ww2) also all of Sanation leaders died durring ww2. Marshal Rydz-Śmigły died in Romania in exile, Walery Sławek (the most democratic from the big three of sanation) shot himself whem he realized that other 2 big faces of sanation will bring autharitarian regime to poland in 1939. The only living part of the Sanation is Ignacy Mościcki whose health deteriorated so much that he couldnt leave switzerland, and will die in 1946. Also Sanation (Sanatio- from latin meant heal/cure) Sanation was a coalition of rightists, leftists and centrists whose main focus was the elimination of corruption and the reduction of inflation in poland, Sanation saw polish democracty from the years 1919-1926 as weak, and uneffective (yes they were) their main hope in democracy was literally killed as the first polish president Gabriel Narutowicz democraticlly elected was killed soon after elections. Sanation rule over poland helped all people who lived there ukrainians lithuanians belorusians also had better life under sanation rule than democratic one that oh irrony opressed them. This changed unfortunatly after Piłsudski death in 1935. Piłsudski left a messege in which he chose Walery Sławek as the best candidate for president as Sławek as i said earlier he was known for being pro-democratic within a reason as he sought patriotic democracy and modus vivendi (way of life in which parties who rules can be in good terms and include oposition) but Mościcki who didnt wanted to stop being a president formed with Rydz-Śmigły coalition that marginalized in election Walery Sławek. Yes the sanation regime was centralized and after 1935/6 even authoritarian but it was still a democracy not dictatorship. even the french constitution after ww2 took many inspirations and ideas from polish constitution made under sanation rule, and many people would call a france after ww2 a democracy not a dictatorship.
dude, please continue this
This is such an awesome and interesting scenario
This just sounds like a way better world
True.... Bet more people would die in the war though
hell nah
no shot this is a better timeline
A world without communism? Now wouldnt that be nice
Hey, love the content, but when are you gonna finish the every empire ever series?
Very good video
As an American strategically and politically this seems like a better world then our timeline however I do understand the moral dilemma of millions more likely dying on all sides
This greatly overestimates the impact of lend lease for the Soviets. And GREATLY overestimates the capabilities of Western Armies, who were having a hard enough time fighting against 1/3 of the Wehrmacht. Furthermore, by your very own admission the Soviet Army largely isn't destroyed by Operation Barbarossa because it's out of position. THIS INCLUDES THEIR LOGISTICS! THE VERY REASON THEY NEEDED LOGISTICAL LEND LEASE! That's a massive self-own on your part.
He made this video on lend lease ruclips.net/video/mJ0g7vuvpn8/видео.html.
He even admmitted that the soviets could continue the war and even without lend lease. And while US command was underhwleming, the American Industry is so big that they would eventually win, and nukes would force surrender either way.
@@mr.gigagod9736 Again, this entire scenario assumes that the Soviet Union required logistics lend lease, when that's only the case because in the OTL they lost much of their logistic vehicles to the Germans. In this timeline that doesn't happen. Which means the need for lend-lease in the first place doesn't actually exist.
I think people fail to remember that the Soviet Union had a similar population to the US and an industry approaching that of the US outside of the naval industry. The Soviet Union produced 80,000 T-34s during WWII. The most of any tank during the war. That vastly outstrips US production of the M4. And in this timeline they don't lose thousands to the Germans in the initial weeks. All of this while also producing numerous other tanks/assault guns/tank destroyers.
@@Gustav_Kuriga Look, I feel like the importance of lend lease is overstated. It wasn't the make or break, and the soviets could defintley continue fighting without it. But it would still hurt them and still delay there war effort. 60 percent of soviet railway and logistics was lend lease. Not to mention most of there rubber and trucks. Soviets would still easily hold the line in the early years, yetg the soviet counter offensive would be slower, especially considering the added threat of an iranian front.
@@mr.gigagod9736 Again, you fail to realize that they needed the lend lease because they lost huge portions of their army and the logistics for that army during the first few weeks of Operation Barbarossa. Without these losses, as Potential History themself implies there are vastly less of, the need to receive lend-lease for that is much, MUCH less. If there at all.
Let me repeat that. THE ENTIRE REASON THEY NEEDED LEND LEASE AT ALL WAS OTL OPERATION BARBAROSSA, where they lost hundreds of thousands of troops and thousands upon thousands of trucks and trains to the Nazi advance. In this very video, he specifically says the Soviet Union loses a lot less because its army is not on the German front right away. If its not on the German front, neither is their logistics system. Meaning they don't lose that either.
Exactly. Also dares to assume a masisve German army can just be friends with the enemy to go fight to Soviets. I dont think people understand what kind of a shocker the atomic bombs may bring? The German moral is either broken or they gonna fight like baddest mfs on earth.
This is actually a very nuanced and plausible alternate history, which is rare to find
the entire "money or" screen is amazing