👉Old School Ammo Special Test👈 .38 Special VS .44 Special Lead Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Points
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- Federal Champion .44 Special 200 gr LSWCHP VS Federal Train+Protect .38 Special 158 gr LSWCHP in a 10% Clear Ballistics test. Always appreciative of any channel help :) www.patreon.co...
Filmed 4/27/23
Unusual and surprising results. The .38 Special wins on price, availability and shoot ability. Thanks for another great video.
Thanks for watching!
I really appreciate it when your initial 3 inch block of gel is clear and not too cloudy, Sam. It's good to be able to see how soon and to what degree hollow points begin to open up and what kind if initial damage was done right at and near to the surface of the 'wound.' This was perfect, thanks!
As a reloader I've found that if you keep that extreme spread as close as possible you will usually have an accurate round.
Back in the day, I carried a 44 magnum 4 inch model 29 until the Sheriff went to "issue only". We had to furnish our own ammo for qualifying. 44 spl were over half again the price of some magnums, so I qualified with full magnum loads. Later on I found some 44spl Silvertips and carried them for a while, mostly because they were easier on the ears, but I still liked the Rem 180 HP magnums. They would incinerate anything closer than 5 feet, with their massive fireballs. I once set a blanket on fire I was using as a rest at the range. They gave a whole new meaning to the term "hot loads".
I have the 6” model 29. Full power magnum loads rattle my teeth even in that big gin
At Luckygunners test not even the +p version of federal LSWCHP expanded. But the Winchester and Remington LSWCHP both expanded in all 5 shots he did. So of course it depends on how hard the lead is
In the last 'shorts' video I did, the Buffalo Bore is listed at Brinell of 6. It does indeed expand well, but then again it's a 500 ft lb cartridge.
GS. Another good and interesting video. Thanks for your work and for sharing. Take care.
Thank you, take care.
Great video. Two of my favorite calibers. For me, .44 SPL in my old Charter Bulldog 3”from the Bridgeport days, and .38 SPL in my Taurus 856 2”. Quite unexpected results in the gel test for me as well. But, I’ve used my hand loads in .44 SPL with my cast Lee 215 grain SWC and a mild charge of 6.5 grains of unique powder to take deer with the Bulldog. I’ve not chronographed this load. The deer dropped quickly and the bulllet passed thru. I use Underwood 200 grain hard cast wad cutter .44 SPL for carry. I’d like to see your gel test with that ammo if you’d be so inclined.
Great video as always Sam, very interesting. Yeah, I agree with you 100%, really can’t say one is better than the other ….because they both suck. 😮😂
They were okay. Much better than some ammo. Id rather have it over a non expanding 9mm
All you need for beast and human attacks is 38 Special 😳🤣✌️🍺🇺🇸
I really enjoy these reviews of old-school loads.
Thanks for sharing, Sam. More often than not, when I carry my .357 Magnum revolver it's loaded with .38 Special.
You definitely need a +P rating in a 4" .38 Special for the LSWC-HP to have a chance to expand. I also noticed the lead in the Remington HTP load is softer than the Federal round, so that's another consideration if someone is thinking carrying this load.
Buffalo Bore standard pressure can expand.
@@GunSam Well yeah, there's always exceptions when you bring Buffalo Bore or Underwood into the mix.
@@Ifoughtpiranhas +P is always more pressure, but not always more powerful.
It’s a bit of a shame you have to step up to boutique loadings just to get normal results.
The Train & Protect is a standard pressure . A W-W +P 158 LHP would have expanded .
We'll take Buffalo Bore's word that their load with their proprietary powder blend is within SAAMI std pressures . Buy velocity wise , it's faster than mainstream +P .
For a mainstream .44 Spl HP that expands , test the 200 gr Silvertip .
Back in the day , the peanut gallery gripe was that the .44 Spl Silvertip expanded too much .
It looks like the alloy is just too hard for the velocity they were loaded to. Might as well be shooting LSWCs. I've got lots of those. But I haven't loaded any! LOL.
Is Elmer Keith the only person who believed .44 Special was more special than a lot of ammo makers have made it? S&W and Ruger still make revolvers for it, single and double actions. Aside from the ammo crisis of the last 3 years, I don't ever remember .44 Special being much on shelves.
I've been wondering if the twist of the rifling is part of the cause of whether the bullets go left or right especially at closer distances. My 4" 1911 45 has right hand twist and some ammo seems to veer to the right at close distances while other brands are dead on. I've tested all of my carry ammo in water jugs and have captured all of them except for the Federal ammo which always turns right and escapes out of the side of one of the jugs. The Winchester T series 230 gr ,Sig 200 gr V-Crown and 185 gr PPU all went straight and stopped at about 15-16" in gel depth but the Federal Punch and HydraShok Deep turned right and left the jugs every time. I set them up 3 wide and 8 deep and even hitting the left jug, they still veered right and came out of the far right jug. I've never had that happen in all my years of shooting. I've got plenty of Punch, so I've finally saved enough jugs to go 10 wide and 10 deep. It took a long time to save that many one gallon jugs, but let's see if one can escape now. I'm gonna put several layers of T shirt over them as well because I've seen several tests where the T series Rangers clogged up and failed miserably. I might even tape some kind of barrier under the shirt material also just to be sure that what I decide to carry won't fail in a real world situation. That's why you and Paul Harrell are my top favorite RUclips channels, because both of you test ammo in the most realistic way possible so I trust the ammo you two recommend and both of you are genuinely good, honest people that I respect. And believe me, I don't give respect freely or often, it's earned. Keep up the awesome videos brother because I never miss watching a single one. Stay safe and free.
Back in the early 1980s the local PD (major department) changed the issued .38 Special ammo maybe 3-4 times in 2-years. This standard velocity semi wadcutter hollow point was in that mix. At P+ velocities it is a very good round. At .38 Special velocity, it was only "OK."
Thought about getting some of the Federal .44 Special swc ammo for my 2.5 inch Smith and Wesson 69.
Kinda glad I didn't.
Cause if it sucked out of a 4 inch barrel?
It would suck harder out of a 2.5 inch.
Not to mention, the price for it was ridiculous.
RoaR
I suspect if the 44 Spl was in wider use, we might see 1 or 2 +p loads for it. No one would shoot them in Triple Locks, and they can probably handle it anyway. It would help if the ammo companies would load them to stated velocities. Most 200 gr bullets are rate at 875-900 fps. The 38 definitely needs a +p load, and there are plenty to choose from, incl the nearly amazing Buffalo Bore. The Rem and Win 158 +p always performed well in actual shootings from 4" barrels. Hornady loads a 165 gr defensive 44 Spl load, and it seems to do fairly well, although i wonder about sectional density. There are some 180 gr loads out there, but they seem to be a mixed bag. That is why it pays to test ammo. The 190 gr BB SWCHP in 44 Spl has a ton of potential, but i have not seen any media tests. I have seen chrono tests, and it meets its stated velicity, and exceeds it in longer barrels.
This is a.22lr related comment, but I couldn't find the video I had in mind at the moment. A short while ago I picked up a 6.5" roughrider for the just-incase scenario of protecting my pet fowl from predators should the situation arise. And have since been doing testing to find the most reliably performing subsonic ammo. And what I found was that the win silvertip did underwhelming damage, stingers had 50/50 expansion rate and stopped around 9" when it did, cci's segmented hps had poor penetration, and any other plated hp's mostly failed to expand at all. But the cci 970fps 45 grain HP, opened up to 5/64ths by had with a drill bit, has been the winner. I haven't cronied it yet but I'm getting reliable expansion and consistent 12" penetration in plain gel. Just thought some might find that interesting.
To think that people actually get paid good money to design, test, and approve these POS. The fact that they’re from a company as big as federal just makes it worse.
To be fair, these are loaded to old school specs. People are used to ammo like these. The better performing ammo is out there, Federal is a leader in that new better ammo with HST and Punch.
Just what I was looking for.!.
Thanks again for the info and gr8 video!!!
Pretty disappointed in the results of both, especially out of a 4-inch barrel. Seems like the performance is almost worse than LRN.
Hey brotha, I just picked up some federal 44 special ammo and the led is spinning in the brass it’s not going in and out but it is spinning I was wondering if yours was doing the same thing
Thank you, could you test some Amo Inc. brand for us in a variety of calibers, is it a viable option for us?
I'm pretty sure the .44 Special is derived from the .44 Russian round.
.44 American-.44 Russian-.44 Special-.44 Magnum
Where is your range located? I want to sneak in there and pick up all of your brass lol lol
Interesting results. Appreciate the demo & data. Both would surely be effective when placed well. But $1 a shot for 44 Special is a bit steep. Thank you.
Just got a new insignia smart tv for my screened in porch so what do I put on? GunSam 🥊 💥❕
Velocity issue with the 44 in the gel tests?
Don't bother with handgun ammo that does not expand.
Pity the 44 Spl +P never became a thing. The S&W 329 would shine with something a 44+P
Yeah, one of those weird things. It was sort of a thing, and still is but no one lists a +P with them.
Hey Sam have you heard of anyone drilling a hole in a soft point for better expansion?...if not what are your thoughts
I never hear much about it. I think there's no need for most people. If I had old soft point, sure it could be done, but the tools and precision to do it would be more expensive than just buying what I want already loaded with hollow points.
@@jmichaelcarbonniere9549 Thanks for the replies. Just a thought
But result!
44 special is a crazy bullet
I tried soft head,s on w/w base old ideal mold 2 piece mold had similar results in 44 mag and spl short barrel,s thank ,s good job Peace
Maybeso heat treated slugs .
What I would like to see, is a comparison between snub nose revolvers in .38 S&W and .38 Special and .380 ACP REVOLVER. The .380 S&W revolvers are listed from Taurus and Charter Arms, but I haven't seen one on the shelves in years.
As a decades old 44 shooter, those loads you tested were rather weak with high ES. I routinely handload the 200gr LSWC-HP to 1,000fps and higher in my 4", and in years past, I could find factory stuff in 200gr that came close to those speeds. I guess that load and brand is concerned about litigation if they are fired in old, 1800's revolvers? I cast and load a 255gr SWC that chronos 800fps in a 3" Bulldog.
I regularly carry many various .38 Special revolvers with 1 7/8", 2" and 4" barrels with the old 158 grain LHP +P. And an original '70s era Charter Arms Bulldog, but with 200 grain Speer Gold Dot or Magsafe. I also use 135 grain Gold Dot +P in my 2" Colt Cobra and Detective Special, because they shoot right to the sights. I have total confidence in any of them, but I suspect the older LHP design is probably going to give the best results in the broadest range of guns generally. It expands dramatically in water even from the shortest barrels. When it was still in widespread use on the street, results were generally reported to be very dependable. I only wish there were more .44 Special guns available. And that Colt would make the real versions of the Cobra, Agent, Courier, and Detective Special again. And the glorious 2 1/2" Python. They would have to sell for well over $1,000 now though. So that's probably not happening...
Now imagine, 9mm and 45acp hollow points were even less likely to expand than this up through the 80's. Many still under perform. Most automatic pistols would only reliably feed a very smooth mil spec ogive. In the late 80's the first auto loader hollow points that would semi-reliably expand became available in 45 acp and 9mm. Many pistols would not feed them reliably. Then an understanding forms of why large caliber or magnum revolvers reigned in terminal performance. There was a 38 spl SWCHP that would expand reliably at standard 38 spl velocities. It was dead soft lead with a relatively wide delicate cavity. Most would not, just like you see here. Then one can see why the 10mm auto cartridge was developed from the ground up to feed wide flat points and wide cavity hollow points. And how both that bullet technology and the autoloader feeding refinements then made their way into other calibers. Such that now there are carefully engineered expanding bullets and pistols which feed them.
Yeah I know; .44 Special is way overpriced for some reason (maybe because it's so uncommon/hard-to-find?)... I no longer go with it unless it's Underwood. Lightly loaded Magnums seem better to me - as they enable you to practice your recoil management.
Elmer Keith hunted with the 44 Special. He wanted something a bit more stout, so he blew up a few 44 specials while working on the 44 Magnum. If loaded right, the 44 Special is a formidable round. I'm a reloader.
I was able to locate an old Ideal/Thompson mould for .44 Special/Magnum that drops bullets at about 235 grains depending on alloy. Should be able to push those about 950-975 fps from a 4” barrel while staying within 15,500. No idea why Federal is loading those to such miserable performance.
Well I hate to say it but this is when the snubby is superior. 😊 longer barrels have to much zip
Do you own and shoot rifles? Just wondering. Nothing to do with the video.
Just a .22 caliber and older 30-30 rifle. I used to be into rifles and shotguns, but after getting in the CCW game and my state not allowing vehicle carry of long guns unless cased and unloaded, I put all my eggs in one basket.
Seeing as how most of my revolvers are 357, I've been loading 38 spl+p with the 158gr lswchp. I need to do a wet pack test to check expansion, but the load data I found should have them pretty hot. Now, if only primers would come down in price, I'd be feeling great about the price.
I heard years ago from a really top end expert on this stuff, (I handload myself for close to 10 years) that with loading rounds like that, you are better served by flipping the seating stem upside down. The way they come are meant for round nose and rounded hollow point bullets so they can crush and bend flat point bullets in a way that makes them less effective. Flipping the stem will push a nice flat surface on your lead HP bullet and make it more like a good factory round.
@GunSam I'm using the Hornaday dies (bought before the vax mandate/leak bounty) and they have two seating stems. One rounded and one flat. So far I haven't seen any deformation on the Speer slugs that I've loaded.
A lot of inconsistency with the .44s on the chrono and the jell. I usually like Federal, but that box was just bad.
Bump
Good choice with the S&W over Charter Arms , at least the ones I’ve fired !!
As a 230lb man if a bullet goes 6-7 " in my chest as measured from my recliner lol my heart is going to die. Although a through and through would do the same. I want a large wound channel and max damage.
Sadly, most hollow points need some velocity to expand, even dead-soft swaged ones, and these just didn't have enough poop to get it done. If I want a low-velocity round that does some damage, I just go with an LBT-style bullet. They tend towards the heavy end of the bullet weight spectrum, shoot accurately from almost any firearm, chop a decent hole, and tend to penetrate straight.
I think Federals lead here is just to hard. Winchester and Remington LSWCHPs do expand.
A somewhat disappointing to my expectations of performance video! I really thought the 44 would be the vastly superior round but the extreme velocity spread tells me there is something wrong with their loading. Thank you for you excellent video!
Hey man, ive been seeing a lot of 147 Speer g2 online. Was wondering if you can test it?
Maybe at some point. I have ordered my monthly test ammo already, lots of Underwood and some Federal. I think the only thing I ordered in 9mm was their 90 gr Xtreme Defender +P+
I think I would pass on both of those.
Yea that is very accurate ammo. I think your chrono may not like really low speeds. Either that or you got an unlucky run with those six.
I'll be dipped. I misread the title and couldn't figure out why anyone would compare a .38 with a .44 magnum. I didn't think anyone bothered with .44 Special anymore.
Yeah, the .44 Special is an excellent round. Cult following. While this ammo is weak, most good ammo is twice as powerful. The GP100 was one of the perfect guns in .44 Special.
@@GunSam The things I don't know. I suspect that I don't care about some things. Oh. On a different video. I should've known but didn't that there are handgun shotgun shells and regular shells. Or...I miss-understood.
Why does 44 special give error 3 and 38 special does not?
My gut says that the occasional very different chronograph reading is likely an error. Lighting, tiny angle changes etc, all add up to make chronographs finicky.
That wouldn't explain how better ammo only varies by 10-20 FPS. I am going to say, it's the ammo.
@@GunSam Maybe, but that is Federal, not some no name never heard of it stuff.
👍😊
smith & wesson 629 is good good too although is heavier.
Thanks. I've got a 50 year old box of .38 special Remington 158 grain LSW, and some Hornady Critical Defense 110 grain hollow point, and some Remington .38 Special+P 158 grain lead SJHP. Which would you load your .38 with for home defense? I've heard that the Remington+P puts out a lot of flame from a 3" barrel that could blind you in the dark.
I have seen in testing, that if the .38 Special Critical Defense is the +P version, it's one of the best out there. In standard pressure it's okay. I can't really say one of those is better than the other.
The Hornady is the ticket in my opinion!
@@GunSam The Hornady is not +P. I could also load my SP101 with .357 magnum SJHP but it might shatter my eardrums in the house if I did not have time to put ear plugs on.
Why don’t you try 357 and a 44 mag at the steel plates?
Great test !
They both seemed slow to me. Bang. .....
Ding
Years ago Evan Marshall rated .44 Special as being very close in performance to .38 Special .
I personally see it's utility as home defense round for an individual who's only firearm is a .44 magnum kept for hunting. Also for an individual who wants a smaller gun like the Charter Arms Bull Dog but doesn't expect trust .38 Special to expand.
I just filmed a video where I tested Buffalo Bore and Underwood .44 Special ammo, several varieties in one video. Most ammo was 500 ft lbs energy. I would say the .44 Special is significantly different than .38 Special when loaded right. It's more like a .45 ACP+P with a typical warm load.
Wanna borrow my Jerry Miceulek 45ACP? He can put them all in the head at 50yds. I certainly can't, but he certainly proves that with his, set up for him, it's possible.
You're right-handed. Fast fire you pulled them all hard right. That's gonna take ages of training and lots of ammo to correct. Or change your point of aim.
Your ammo choices, I understand, but they're only meant for punching holes. I use them in 44M downloads and 45LC. They can be used for other things hardcast with a gas check projectile, but that's about it.
Enjoyable to see a review where the reviewer shoots about like I do. That isn't an insult.
Finger placement…..
Good video.
Back in the Obama era, ammo was had to get. I was happy to find a box of those 38 Specials. It is my habit to check all my revolver ammo for carry in each chamber as you may find one that wont enter. When I tried these, none would chamber. When I looked close it was obvious that the crimp was not done. They still had the bell in the case. I used my Lee Factory Crimp die set at max and recrimped them. Velocity was 905 from a 4 inch S&W and 880 from a 3 inch S&W. All of them were within 5 fps of each other. If you have any of them left, try recrimping and see what happens.
The 44 is too slow....
Junk ammo !